streamchat

[split meteor]

Hell yeah brother. There's a lot of novel situations that video games present to society, especially in law.

[orchid abyss]

Someone mentioned a "time" on games, and I could see an argument being made to treat some live service systems more like a patent rather than just a copyright--could run private servers, etc as close as possible to the original, but couldn't create more data for it, etc, beyond what was originally in the game. It's a rough thought, so feel free to pick it apart

[buoyant arrow]

He portrayed Politicians in a very generic tone and in bad way, liking an "easy win" and "not caring anyway", making it sounds like "Yeah, now WE are gonna exploit all those stupid politicians to get what we want". Regardless of what his actually talking points are, insulting people you want something from is incredibly misguided.

[fresh ginkgo]

@limpid widget You keep saying "vote with your wallet" doesn't work.

How so?
Are you implying that it doesn't work because not enough people stop paying?

[river haven]

Voting with your wallet doesn't mean shit if the company is crapping out gatcha style games intent on profiting just off whales. Denying a company 60 bucks for a game means jack shit when they can make several thousand off a whale in a game they run for only six months.

[tropic harbor]

Don't even get me started on patents, just look at wb games crushing possible growth in the industry just cause they don't want competition

[river haven]

Square Enix is a major offender in that style.

[buoyant arrow]

Voting with your Wallet isn't about denying sales, it's about giving sales to stuff you want more off.

[orchid abyss]

yeah, it's a pretty broken system, especially when applied to software and code

[hard burrow]

The good news with most legal issues though is that we use analogies and metaphors to draw on previous case law, so we're never too far away from a working solution to the weird issues tech loves to open. The next big "novel" issue is how the heck do we deal with digital identities -- and it's quickly approaching the main stage of relevancy with the desire to protect children.

[fresh ginkgo]

That is a single type of situation.
It does not address the question as a whole, merely provide one case

[river haven]

You asked for an example. I delivered.

[fresh ginkgo]

But to imply that the entire concept is invalid requires more than one case of failure

[broken hound]

the problem with "vote with your wallet" is, yea it works. but it leads to people being overly critical of indies sometimes and leads to taking decades for anything to come of it from AAA cause of the whales thatll sink thier wallets in reguardless cause of sunken cost

[buoyant arrow]

Buying 6 ten dollar games that do things you want to see more of matters more than not buying a single 60 dollar game you dislike.

[tropic harbor]

This is also a community that will go out of our way to look for good indies

[broken hound]

perfect example is EA. people been trying to vote with thier wallets for damn near a decade now and theyre still pile driving every long running franchise into the ground

[split meteor]

Yeah I'm of two minds when it comes to digital identities. Right now in the west we have a lot of disparate stuff that comes together to form it, compared to something like China where many games directly use government identification.

On one hand, we're approaching a point where data collectors can essentially form a complete profile on you without your control/knowledge, but on the other hand I'm very wary about western bureaucrats being in charge of that kind of thing at all.

Privacy stuff in general is tough because of the kind of abstract and opaque nature of the data collection side.

[limpid widget]

It never works, in any industry, not just gaming. It especially won't work in entertainment industries like gaming when it didn't even work for important things like workplace safety and food safety. It's a corpo rat defense to anti-consumer behavior.

If it worked, thor wouldn't be sitting in his regulated house, drinking regulated water, eating regulated food, sitting in a chair made of regulated materials, using a regulated computer, commuting with regulated cars... These things are all regulated because vote with your wallet failed to provide competent consumer protection. So people voted for real. They voted for gov't regulation. Gaming is just new, it hasn't arrived to gaming yet... but it will. We choose whether it ends up being bad regulation or good regulation.

[buoyant arrow]

There are indie games that I've bought (and kept) that from a quality standpoint aren't that great, but do things that I find very fun or interesting. So I wanna give those devs a change to improve and make something more, is the idea for me.

[proud depot]

because enough people don't care and still eat up their crap, you may be voting with their wallet, but there are hoards of people who don't

[tropic harbor]

My dream for a fully fleshed out Sims game. May EA BURN

[orchid abyss]

There are a few cases where it has worked, and sometimes the threat of a large financial boycott has gotten a few companies to change stances.

[fresh ginkgo]

That isn't what I asked.
WHY doesn't it work?
Don't just make a statement without a basis.

[limpid widget]

Well, we have helldivers as an example. Thor tried his method, unfortunately helldivers is unpurchasable in most of the world!

[uncut talon]

I'm happy that there's a thriving commmunity with Doom, and the devs that have released the source code and allowed people to create an open source commercial engine using their game code. Preservation like that I can get behind, but only if the developers/IP owners allow it.

Voting with your wallet doesn't really work because there's always the fans of the games that come out that will continue to buy, and pre-order games or the people who could vote with their wallet don't bother because the developers sucker them into another purchase because of new features. Falls hand-in-hand with the 'Don't pre-order!' movement, again a decent movement, but not everyone follows it.

[sterile monolith]

In other words "voting with your wallet doesn't work when other people vote with their wallets also."

[buoyant arrow]

That's a not a "why". It's just another example.

[river haven]

More like "Voting with your wallet might work against an indie studio such as Thor's, but when put against EA, Squeenix, or Crapcom, your wallet doesn't mean shit as long as they can find willing whales"

[split meteor]

Voting with your wallet seldom works in the most egregious cases. If anything, PR disasters are more powerful than not giving people your money if they act in an immoral manner.
It's a nice thought, but seldom does trusting the market to sort things out actually stop immoral practices.

[orchid abyss]

We're also talking about Sony, who generally don't really bow to pressure from groups. I think there was this one time during EQ where Verant pulled some shady CS actions that got companies like Best Buy threatening to pull Sony products off the shelves.

[broken hound]

i think its more the sunken cost fallacy. whales being like "i sunk so many hours and so many hundreds into micro transations in the last installment so im obligated to do it again" good example is content creators. like thor touched on during the apex drama alot of people cant change thier content or the algos will kill them if thier community doesnt abandon them.

[buoyant arrow]

I'mma repeat myself: I don't think "Voting with your wallet" should be about boycotting. It should be about support! You don't vote who you don't want to be mayor, you vote who you want to be mayor, right?

[fresh ginkgo]

Yeah I know full well I'm gonna get flak for this one but someone has to say it.

Who defines the morals, in that situation?

[split meteor]

The person doing the "voting with their wallets" in this case.

[limpid widget]

That's definetly a why, but we have to dig a bit deeper into why it didn't work for those other examples either right? Why does something as important as food safety not work with voting with your wallet? Because of consumer education. Not everyone has time to educate themselves on evetything. Not every gamer with EVER have time to educate themselves about bad practices of every developer and publisher everywhere. This will never happen. History proves it. It's not a solution.

People don't have time to check on every food source, every water source, every car manufacturer, every part of their entire lives to make sure they make perfect purchase decisions. It doesn't work. It has never worked! why is this even a thought? People have finite resources for research, it's not free. People can afford to research a couple things thoroughly. That's it.

[sterile monolith]

It's not correct to say that voting doesn't work just because all people who have a vote don't choose to vote your way.

[river haven]

Like, I can see good concepts from both sides of the whole argument, but the problem is predatory companies who don't care about the fans anymore. They just want to get as much money as possible from most of these projects, and "Vote with your wallet" or "Don't buy the product" comes out to "Well, jsut be a miserable shit and play nothing"

[fresh ginkgo]

Do I like the practices? Hell no.
But do I have any right to impose my will and morals over them? Also no.

[tropic harbor]

We do live in a capitalist hellscape

[split meteor]

This just in: Murder is okay now.

[fresh ginkgo]

Never once said that

[river haven]

Voting with your wallet doesn't get results. Actual laws do. Look at how it put ends to the gambleboxes that were getting kids into gambling addictions? Except now we just have a different problem, with every game having 'battle pass's' instead.

[fresh ginkgo]

You're arguing in bad faith with that kind of comment.
Don't put words in people's mouths

[buoyant arrow]

Because it's not water, food or cars? It's a luxury were consumption with attention to detail is usually very possible.

[split meteor]

I'm using your position for rhetorical purposes, I know you didn't say that.

It's a flagrantly ridiculous extreme.

[limpid widget]

Exactly, you proved my point. People should not have to spend their finite research time checking on gamedevs of all things. There's so many more important things to need to research for. Entertainment is Low priority!!! And as a result people will never, ever vote with their wallet at a large scale to solve bad anti consumer practices in gaming.

[golden gust]

I think what we should be fighting for it's letting the consumer know if you are buying an instance of the game to keep forever or a licence to play a game as a service so the consumer can make an informed purchase, making the game always available i think it's always the decision of the developer.

[split meteor]

It's moreso that I disagree with the position that people are not entitled to objecting to what they perceive as immoral and harmful behavior, nor trying to stop such behavior. That's the kind of behavior that results in the worst kinds of exploitation.

[river haven]

Thors argument there is it's the consumers fault for not reading the ToS though. And again, how many of us have skipped through that shit to hit accept at least once?

[split meteor]

Lasses-faire is not a solution to the evils of the world.

[buoyant arrow]

So were doing whataboutisms now? Your argument here, in channel about videogames and gamedev is "Videogames are not important enough to ahve this argument"?

[fresh ginkgo]

Corporate hellscape, actually.
It's corrupt capitalism that puts profit before product.

Compared to uncorrupt capitalism that puts product before profit. Think commission artists, as an example

[limpid widget]

That's not a whataboutism, i'm saying it won't happen on large scale. Most people don't have time for it. We are the 1% lol. I am careful with my purchases. 99% will never be.

[tropic harbor]

This is a very deep argument about what ownership means in a digital space that we have not really found an answer for

[river haven]

They make that shit a complete slog to get through where the normal layman would need to hire a lawyer to explain it for that exact reason. It's led to people just skipping reading it entirely.

[buoyant arrow]

So because we're not a lot of people, we shouldn't try?

[tropic harbor]

Fair point

[split meteor]

Not entirely. It's also to cover every possible edge case that could arise in a legal sense.
If you don't cover your ass, they'll get your ass.

[broken hound]

this 100%. i love racing and simming as a genre but havent really bought anything new outside of dlcs for stuff i already owned and like for idk how long cause im sick of everything being bas business decisions, more of the same bs and/or just a money pit.

[limpid widget]

I'm saying regulation works, and vote with your wallet never does on a wide scale. You still have personal responsibility, regardless.

[sterile monolith]

Was anyone actually not informed on this topic?

[river haven]

Ok. So you've read every single ToS and understood it 100% before accepting?

[buoyant arrow]

Saing it never works is disingenious. I would agree that it struggles to work most of the time, but never? Nah

[split meteor]

No, and that's why in court the exact ToS doesn't actually work as the sole argument.

[limpid widget]

Do you have any examples at all of it working for widespread consumer rights issues?

[split meteor]

the telecomms act of 1996 did a pretty good job, as did the DMCA in america

[buoyant arrow]

Not of the top of my head, no. I didn't exactly come prepared with references and quotations.

[tropic harbor]

Oh Thor said playing a game, I've been awake for too long

[fresh ginkgo]

Also y'know what historically seems to work much better than stuff like this initiative?

Suing the pants off the specific, offending parties

[limpid widget]

I was asking about "vote with wallet" solutions, in what way were these voting with your wallet solutions?

[split meteor]

Well that's parto f Ross's objection actually. There isn't really precedent in the courts on how to handle this specific issue.

[split meteor]

oh

my b

[fresh ginkgo]

Lawsuits have set precedents before

[limpid widget]

Ah no worries, i think the reply chain got confusing.

[fresh ginkgo]

Most legal precedents have been set that way, actually

[river haven]

And it's in the UK, where laws and precedents still matter. So you don't want to set such a loose law that can be abued like crazy.

[split meteor]

I'd say it's too grey for a large-scale lawsuit, and ultimately the financial losses are like, less than 60 bucks per claimant.

[buoyant arrow]

Personally, I firmly believe that supporting the things you'd want financially is going to get more of those things, eventually. That's what voting with my wallet means for me. Most people treat is a "have to boycott" which, I'd agree, barely every works.

[split meteor]

It's not really big enough to do a class-action either

[orchid abyss]

DMCA is a hot mess. It's a good first attempt, needs to be fixed. Too easy to actually kill acceptible use making the person doing the edit, parody, etc take it to legal action rather than the other way around.

[split meteor]

No disagreements here.

[fresh ginkgo]

Do they not have class-action overseas?

[limpid widget]

I do this myself, because i think it's right to do. But like, consumer rights issues are only solved by regulation imo. I don't think thor even thinks this is a valid consumer rights issue, or an archival issue. He doesn't seem to care at all. I strongly believe in those things, so it sucks.

[tropic harbor]

He'll never finish control Sadge

[fresh ginkgo]

No, he thinks it's dangerously worded, as well as believing government shouldn't be involved with it

[split meteor]

They do, but generally class-actions come about as a result of obvious wrongdoing and large-scale damages. THis is just a digital product/service being rendered inoperable, which is a very new concept, and there's a lot of disagreement in how to handle it in the legal sense.

[fresh ginkgo]

As well as believing, based on his direct experience in the industry, that some of what the initiative asks for isn't possible

[split meteor]

"Just do a class-action to stop games from being shut down" is not really a good solution, in that sense.

[limpid widget]

I have not seen evidence he cares about the archival or consumer rights concerns beyond 'vote with your wallet', it occupied like 4 seconds out of all his ranting about it

he dedicated more time to saying mean things about the small youtuber doing his best :p

[buoyant arrow]

I dunno, From what I understood, his opposition is largely due to their method, talking points, vagueness, and a community that reacted to his disagreement with dozens of death threats and emotional agressions.

[fresh ginkgo]

Do you have evidence that he doesn't?

[hard burrow]

I'm so pumped for Crowdstrike litigation being on the stack. 😬

[fresh ginkgo]

We can go back and forth all day

[split meteor]

in the past thor's said something to the effect of "When government gets involved, it's bad every time"

[broken hound]

problem with that is, its multi billion if not trillion dollar companies we're talking about. also its digital goods we're talking about. in a system filled with oldies. its like thor trying to go to the bank. they dont understand it in the slightest and will just dismiss it cause its not tangible. which was the discussion when the crew stuff first went down

[split meteor]

oh yeah I'm wondering how the hell that'll go. It's massive.

[orchid abyss]

Thought: "LIve Service" label much like the "age rating" on games meaning people can at least get that the access to the game will end at some point

[limpid widget]

Well, thanks for the discussion regardless

[golden gust]

He doesn't care about archival of live service games, as far as I understand all the rant. And that's fine, I'm also agree that preserving games its also the developer decision as long as the consumer knows what he's getting into

[fresh ginkgo]

He hasn't said anything, support or dissent, about archival.
Because archival isn't a part of this

[hard burrow]

But class action lawsuits regarding intangible goods like intellectual property is not too new for the "oldies in the courts." Usually we just don't see movement because the results of settlements don't have to be reported to the public. Even the oldest judges have a raid party of clerks keeping them up to date.

[buoyant arrow]

I think this is becoming a more understood thing as time goes on. It would be nice if this was communicated more upfront, but which marketing team would say that their live service will not "last forever"?

[limpid widget]

I've been playing sandbox mmo games for 25+ years and they're literally all unplayable and dead. I want them archived.

[fresh ginkgo]

Archival does not mean continued access.

[river haven]

Yea, preserving lost/dead media of games that did things innovativly with the engines and limits they had at the time is pretty important to the gaming community.

[limpid widget]

Archival is one of the main points of the campaign though? Have you seen ross scott talk?

archival does absolutely mean continued access (at least in a limited form)

[broken hound]

on a related note, has thor moved on from the ross drama yet? lol.

[limpid widget]

Yall ever play starquest online? face of mankind? You never will if you haven't already!

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, in Museum, which is what it's for, not for profit storefront which are not preprated to act as museums.

[split meteor]

Yeah, he's also skipping TTS messages that bring it up. He seems pretty done with it.

[hard burrow]

Yes. And he's now killing all future messages regarding it to move on, since the clip will be coming out.

[limpid widget]

It's not part of the campaign to keep anything on "for profit storefronts"

[golden gust]

Welp I don't think that should be enforced, the dev should have all the right to make the decision if the game will be forever accessible or not.

[buoyant arrow]

True, but that could be a consequence of that legislation. Because it would have to be accesible somehow.

[limpid widget]

If a game is a document, then a game must be playable to "get into" the document

[fresh ginkgo]

Disagree.

[buoyant arrow]

Hell, even medium with fully established historical preservations can't just claim and take privately owned works whenever they feel like it.

[limpid widget]

Players own their copies, or they are supposed to.

[fresh ginkgo]

Screenshots, videos, code archives, informational documentation

[river haven]

Yes, we're onto the totally real Skibidi Toilet Michael Bay movie being made now.

[limpid widget]

We don't need to say, end of support so the game is free for all. Owners having their continued access is the goal.

[river haven]

If any pointless meme needs a whole movie, it's clearly Skibidi Toilet.

[broken hound]

sweet, cant blame him tho. people are being moronic and toxic over it while not realising everyone wants the same thing just not how ross is pushing it.

[fresh ginkgo]

You can archive something without it being playable

[river haven]

An example of this, Youtube has every cutscene from Kingdom Hearts Unchained which has huge parts of the story in a browser game that's six years defunct.

[fresh ginkgo]

If you're talking about stuff like singleplayer "online only" games.
He's already agreed that THOSE are bad

[buoyant arrow]

I'd agree if the original purchase included such an agreement. Usually they don't.

[golden gust]

Sadly you are not purchasing a copy in live service, you are purchasing a licence to play the game that it's now technically a service.

[split meteor]

I think the best option would be to for people to start designing live service games with a sunsetting option that still would allow limited access to the game's features, or in such a way that you could release server software to the community in a not-fucky way. Something like a limited single-player option built-in.
Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 for instance is an MMO but everything can be done single-player except the parts that expressly need other players by starting a "single player lobby".
As they're designed right now though, live service games simply do not work that way, nor do I really think they should be legislated to do so.

[limpid widget]

I can blame him easily, could have worked with ross to improve his delivery, just chose not to and chose to be loud and hostile about it. Ross is just some small youtuber doing his best, there was no need for that behavior whatsoever.

[limpid widget]

EULA does not supercede the law, and games are goods in many countries. You are buying the game, not a license, in those countries.

[fresh ginkgo]

So you agree with pushing something because it's "easy"?

[buoyant arrow]

That being said, I think that purchases that are "merely" access to an online game, should be very clearly displayed as such. It's obvious to people who're in the scene, but obfustcated for most consumders.

[fresh ginkgo]

You think ease of success is more important than weighing the potential risks?

[broken hound]

my dude. everything about ross is peak "i dont need a lawyer i can do it myself". if ross just listened to thors advice once in his life and talked to a lawyer the whole situation would be infinately more proffecional rather than an emotional rant fit

[thorny kelp]

Everyone saying thanks for Noitia winning, but I spent 408k points on warframe T_T

[hard burrow]

EULA are specifically superceding the law through private agreement. In the absence of contract, the laws apply. (But you cannot privately agree to do illegal things.) (And there are public laws that prevent other terms from being in private contracts.)

[split meteor]

(Ross spoke to multiple lawyers about this)

[limpid widget]

Don't know why you're lying.

Stop it, get some help.

[proud depot]

I don't even know how you vote with channel points

[orchid abyss]

Sure doesn't come across that way, though.

[limpid widget]

I don't really understand your point, is this about the wording thor misunderstood? Trying to convince people the goal was achiveable?

[fresh ginkgo]

Misunderstood???

What?

[cerulean jacinth]

https://youtu.be/Q3oaHIJ47-0?si=PbVqpLNKsHSEy82W

[buoyant arrow]

Doesn't mean they were good lawyers.

[broken hound]

i dont believe that in the slightest. how do you manage to get legal advice and still make a laughable campaign basicaly the same as the karen that keeps trying to sue steam

[fresh ginkgo]

Ross was pretty upfront about it in the video, dudr

[limpid widget]

Better lawyers than khronos, that's for sure.

[limpid widget]

Thor is afraid of it passing, if he thought it wasn't going to succeed he wouldn't be so loud about it

[buoyant arrow]

What makes you think Khronos is a bad lawyer beyond you disliking his opinion on this matter?

[fresh ginkgo]

Can you quit with the attacks?

[split meteor]

https://youtu.be/mkMe9MxxZiI?t=205

This section is what grey is referring to.

[fresh ginkgo]

^

[river haven]

See, now that just seems inciteful. Lawyers may just have differeing opinions, but that doesn't make them better. OJ Simpson had all the best lawyers, and how well did that go?

[fresh ginkgo]

Dave careful

No politics

[broken hound]

thats like saying "he knew there was nothing wrong with the once human privacy policy so why was he so loud about it. dudes loud about it cause people talk everything on the internet at face value.

[orchid abyss]

avoiding the politics, yeah, having expensive lawyers (expensive doesn't mean best) don't always fix your problems

[fresh ginkgo]

Incorrect.
He is afraid of the potential collateral damage

[limpid widget]

I'd like that, but thor keeping it up makes me not want to :)

[broken hound]

anyways.... imma head back to stream since thors over it lol i needa calm down before bed anyway lol

[hard burrow]

Lawyers can have a lot of different specialities. I've seen real estate attorneys try to write video game contracts before (and it can be interesting if they don't have an IP background) (or tax / bankruptcy, for that matter, which is super relevant to video games surprisingly). It's really hard to apples to apples compare lawyer power levels because so much of our character sheet specializations are based off the previous quests we've done for clients.

[split meteor]

Mind you, ross also specifically says he doesn't want THIS to be done in the video.

The actual EU initiative is very vague about it though...

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en#

[proud depot]

lol, "qoit"

[split meteor]

It's like one page and doesn't specify much

[river haven]

Leaving it open ended as it is will open it up to abuse by parties with bad intentions.

[limpid widget]

Yeah stream discussion has moved on, i will move on here as well. Despite the conflict, thanks for the discussions. I got my piece off my chest.

[fresh ginkgo]

You don't want to be a level-headed and avoid personal attacks on people.

Too bad.

Nobody's going to listen to you if you continue it

[vast furnace]

move on to checks notes

[buoyant arrow]

Well those points sound reasonable. Does it say anywhere how they would accomplish this?

[vast furnace]

offering people stranded in a desert, hot mayonaise

[proud depot]

the f is hot mayo? like its spicy or its been heated?

[river haven]

Mayo machines. Oh god the mayo machines. I bet that dude has high cholesterol

[fresh ginkgo]

Did you click the link?
The point of that screenshot was to show a discrepancy between video and the actual initiative online

[buoyant arrow]

Hey, fair game for trying to talk it out.

[buoyant arrow]

Oh I didn't see the link

[hard burrow]

I spent a whole semiester of business school consulting for a company that sold a healthy alternative to mayonaise. Really opened my eyes to what other cultures do with their mayo.

[cerulean jacinth]

https://youtu.be/Q3oaHIJ47-0?si=PbVqpLNKsHSEy82W

[split meteor]

The initiative link I showed beneath the image is the entirety of what's been put forward to politicians. It makes no distinction between games that MUST be services, and games that could feasibly not be services but the company decided to kill the game by making it always-online because ?????.

[limpid widget]

???? I'm here because thor made personal attacks on a smaller youtuber, ross who was being very civil responding to him even after initial personal attacks, and i strongly believe that turnabout is generally fair play. If you're mad at me for literally taking cues from thor, like, shrug. Anyways, see you.

[hard burrow]

Like, Japanese mayo smoothies are a thing. That I had to do market research to learn more about. Definitely not something to send into a desert (though it probably is fairly shelf stable.)

[river haven]

Kewpie Mayo is way better than the western style mayo though

[fresh ginkgo]

What personal attacks?

[buoyant arrow]

" continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher." Only mentions the publisher in the objective. So, implying the devs would have to be involved.

[fresh ginkgo]

He never once said Ross was bad.
He said the argunents and behavior are bad.

Those are different things, dudr

[summer night]

People cool the jets, put it to bed please

[tropic harbor]

LET IT END

[proud depot]

he did say he didn't like ross, but thats the only thing I can think of as a personal attack

[buoyant arrow]

@fresh ginkgo @limpid widget This is 2 messages away from turning into pointless arguing, let's move on

I agree, but you know.

[fresh ginkgo]

Eh..
I timed out on runescape anyways.
And I have the 15 minute afk timer.

[split meteor]

I don't think that ross scott understands the relationship between development studio and publisher very well. Nor how developers might actually bring about what he wants, come to think.

[fresh ginkgo]

I've been caught in this too long

I have fletching I need to get done, dangit

[buoyant arrow]

Okay, glancing over it, it only ever mentions publishers. It needs to adress developers role in this.

[split meteor]

It should also provide recourse for games that are legitimately just services, and have no actual functionality without other players.

[buoyant arrow]

And it argues that the sellers are selling a good you get to keep instead of access. It feel like it written from a point of misunderstanding what's is being bought when. Which is something I'd agree needs cleaning up, but is not the goal of the initiative.

If I buy a gym membership, I don't get to keep a gym if it closes.

[split meteor]

I wouldn't rely too hard on metaphor/allegory in this case.

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, more talking to myself to clarify.

[split meteor]

I getcha

It's like, in the exact case where someone makes a game that feasibly should be singleplayer, but then shuts off some component that kills all functionality remotely, he's got a hell of a point.

But in every other case there's just too little consideration.

[buoyant arrow]

I would get behind an initiave that would force sellers to have to be open or clarify that what you're buying is access to a thing, not the thing itself. It's currently in very muddy waters as what live services game are keeps evolving.

[split meteor]

I'm not sure what form that would even need to take. Especially since it could easily become yet another thing they stamp on game packages that has no meaning.

[river haven]

I mean, I don't want to get dragged in again, but there are games where it's Multiplayer only and the community keeps them alive after sunsetting. I'm in a community that does that for old Westwood and 989 game titles and forcing old gamespy servers to work through some mix of magic and gibberish.

[split meteor]

ESRB ratings mean basically nothing.

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, but the way it is now, it's severely overreaching. The general idea isn't bad, but this needs a lot more cooking time before going forward in any way.

[split meteor]

hell yeah brother

I love me some RA2

[river haven]

Yes. I work on Renegade servers.

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, and it's really cool when that happens. City of Heroes is still playable too, entriely community hosted.

[river haven]

C&C was so good before EA killed it.

[split meteor]

I didn't mind RA3, but it just wasn't the same

[hard burrow]

It's in the TOS/EULA -- I'd certainly support a version of this that you have to make your EULA reader friendly.
(And surprise, few outside the legal community know this, but this is very quickly going to be implemented in international laws soon. 2025-2028 patch notes are full of these changes.)

[river haven]

It was that horrible command and conquer and closing to Kanes story that really was the final nail in the coffin.

[summer night]

C&C Gererals was top tier of me LOVED IT

[fresh ginkgo]

What's frustrating to me here is THOR AGREES ON THAT POINT, but fears the whole thing is worded in such a way that far more than the actual problem will get hit.

Yet people don't care that he agrees with that base issue being an issue; they attack him for disagreeing at all

[split meteor]

no shit? I heard rumblings about it through some legal youtubers but I didn't know it actually was being implemented in the international community.

[buoyant arrow]

Good! TOS being lovecraftian gibberish to laypeople has been the norm for way too long.

[uncut talon]

C&C General was not my favorite entry, but at least it's better than C&C Tiberium 4.

[split meteor]

twitter brain general

[river haven]

Don't say it's name. Just pretend 4 didn't happen.

[hard burrow]

It's on the books because of the big priority movement atm: If children play your game, then children need to be able to understand your TOS/EULA.

[summer night]

anything is better than 4

[quiet apex]

I giggled when reading the bg3 eula, but no way I took it serious...

[buoyant arrow]

Makes sense.

[hard burrow]

Atm, we're being told to look at Facebook's and Epic's TOS/EULA efforts as it evolves to comply with international law because, as the big players, they're going to have to conform first.

[split meteor]

Finally, some good regulation

After 10,000 years

[buoyant arrow]

Isn't part of it them claiming your psychic essence for world domination or somehting?

[hard burrow]

So... I haven't gotten to that part of my research action for the month (July was spicy for my clients) but I'mma be checking those examples soon.

[buoyant arrow]

Good regulation is pure gold when it happens.

[split meteor]

I'll have to go poking around what's public, myself.

[river haven]

Too bad lobyists are a thing that like to make sure it never happens.

[split meteor]

Wouldn't be the first time I slammed my head into dense, obtuse legal documents

[buoyant arrow]

Even when lobbyist don't mess it up, it's really hard to account for all scenarios enough to not make regulation have unintended consequences.

Like, remember how now every website harasses you about cookies existing?

[summer night]

and on the TOS front didnt apple's ipod ios say something like cant be used on a nuclear sub?

[split meteor]

Anyway that's enough politics, I'm gonna go watch wizard death sim

[hard burrow]

I'd say that too, usually, but apparently (take this with a grain of salt) there's a Baroness in Europe who is lobbying on behalf of children, and that's one of the reasons why the next big expansion / patch / legal zeitgeist is thematically prioritizing children in consumer law upgrades.

[buoyant arrow]

"Think of the children" but used in a good way, huh. I like it.

[river haven]

I dunno about apple. But I wasn't allowed on premises when I did E.R. work with a Smasnug Note 8 because it was classified as an incendiary device.

[hard burrow]

(My information is out of date: the secret cabal of video game attorneys meet in May, and I'm just now transcribing my notes every night while watching Thor stream.)

[summer night]

"the secret cabal of video game attorneys" now thats a good name for a meeting

[buoyant arrow]

I imagine there's a least 3 Phoenix Wrights present.

[sturdy oyster]

this a wild miencraft shader

[hard burrow]

There are at least 3 different attorneys who occasionally sue each other about stepping on each other's branding, that's for sure. XD

[buoyant arrow]

Oh! Kill 6 Billion demons is soooooo good

Hard recommend

[hard burrow]

I have it on my reading list. Good to hear that it's held up.

I think the next webcomic I'm going to revisit is Girl Genius just because it's been a while, and I just saw the author at SDCC. Super dedicated husband-wife creator team.

[viral merlin]

KSBD is godlike \o/

[buoyant arrow]

Girl Genius is still going!?

I remember reading that way back when

[hard burrow]

Yep! They're kickstarting volume (24?) and still going strong.

Apparently they're on the "Second Expedition" (post-timeskip), and there's some talk about the "Third Expedition" coming up soon.

[buoyant arrow]

Huh. Might get back into that if need something to read. I barely remember anything beyond "Steampunk" and the Kriegers talk funny

I think I was to young to appreciate it back then. I was 16 when it released.

[hard burrow]

I told the authors that I read it whenever I get sick, and the wife coughed on me. They're fairly witty in real life.

[buoyant arrow]

That must'Ve been before the big C

[hard burrow]

No, this was last Saturday.

[buoyant arrow]

Based

[summer night]

you people think we should ask thor to take ludwig to defcon i mean with this clip what will go wrong https://youtube.com/shorts/oDOFZPy2rlY?si=VudMoyNQrpOa3I-P

[proud depot]

to add to the "coolth" its been a word since the mid 16th century

[hard burrow]

Okay, with that video, I'm going to bed. That's amazing.

[summer night]

night sweet dreams

[proud depot]

You saw nothing 👀

[summer night]

You saw nothing "2"

[modest palm]

Chat really has no braincells sometimes

[summer night]

"sometimes" most of the time

[split burrow]

we do share 7

[summer night]

7

sorry force of habit

[modest palm]

7

[split burrow]

[uncut talon]

Noita voting should have 7 options imho

[earnest mirage]

• melt with lava
• erase with acid
• exploding projectiles
• all spells to nuke/omega sawblade
• fungal shift blood into lava
• spawn stevari

[uncut talon]

Option 4 lol

[earnest mirage]

[broken hound]

honestly, i just wanna see a 5th option thats just "surprise mwahaha" that can do anything

[wintry pond]

if laws are vague, we get that in California bees are fish

[magic dirge]

I see that the twitch chat is in emote only chat. I refresh the page and the emote only is gone

[uncut talon]

According to US legislation there's a population of Hippos in Columbia that are destroying the rainforest, but nothing can be done to them because they're recognized as a race of humans.

In the United States so efforts to cull them are blocked by the US.

[tulip quiver]

How can I trigger tts? I sent a message multiple time with 500 bits but nothing happens.

[foggy plover]

!tts

[dapper raven]

You can have Text To Speech (TTS) for any bit donation 500 or higher. Once submitted, your message will be added to The Queue, which Thor activates manually. If Thor does not get to your message by the end of stream it will become 'Debt' on the 'Debt-Tracker' channel in Discord. Thor pays out to charity when that value hits $7,777 or more. Answered TTS questions are timestamped in Discord in the answered-tts channel.

[uncut talon]

There's a queue.

[foggy plover]

Since when is the US able to pass its own laws that affect other countries? I think there's something you're leaving out here.

[uncut talon]

They were a gift from the US to Castro.

[tulip quiver]

Do I have an option to see it in q or just wait and check the answered tts in discord later today

[foggy plover]

Castro???? The Columbian hippos came from Pablo Escobar shipping them into the country. You know, one of the world's biggest drug kingpins of all time?

[fossil sapphire]

oh btw, thor is on Dropped frames again tonite, so we can have even more circling back on this vidya preservation initiative!

[swift bison]

https://youtu.be/3BCCETH1usI

[foggy plover]

You have to read.... but seriously, he pushes a manual button when he's ready to hear the next one in the list. You can't know where you are in the order unless you paid attention to his stream overlay's count when you submitted your message

[frail bison]

USA specific, but if you want yet another reason to fear vague terminology, you can read the recent overturn of Chevron Deference. https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-chevron-curtailing-power-of-federal-agencies/ The TLDR; for decades they would defer to experts in the government agencies to interpret vague or unspecified terms, now it's a matter for the courts to decide.

[uncut talon]

I might have geolocations mixed up.. one second let me self-verify.

[foggy plover]

Yea, you might

[uncut talon]

Before I make myself into another joke, beyond swallowing my WoW Authenticator.

[foggy plover]

Castro was the communist dictator of Cuba for many generations before he passed away. Aintnoway the US ever sent him any gifts LOL

[uncut talon]

Found it.

https://apnews.com/article/hippos-animals-personhood-pablo-escobar-e89daf05efb37efd3d35e6dabce56726

[foggy plover]

Read the third paragraph @uncut talon

[uncut talon]

It's still nuts though lol

[golden rapids]

Regarding Stop killing games, does anyone know if there was already a response from the European Commission to the request of the Pirates Party? https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/pirates-ask-eu-commission-to-look-into-killing-of-video-games/

Pirate Party MEP Patrick Breyer has asked the European Commission for an opinion on the decision by French computer game manufacturer Ubisoft to make the popular computer game “The Crew 1” unusable from April 2024.

[foggy plover]

No, not really. That shit goes on in LOTS of countries, all the time. Just because some group is looking for a fake victory. Passing a law like that is hollow BS.

[uncut talon]

Fake victories strengthen crazy-aligned persons to pushing for even more funny BS.

[scarlet zephyr]

The Ruopean Pirates in Germany also had a my little pony break. Dont take them seriously.

[golden rapids]

@scarlet zephyr They still filed a request to the european commission. So there has to be a response at some point...

[scarlet zephyr]

I used to work for an ISP. Have fun getting hardware and maintaining it.... Also licensing is is a big issue. You can only open source so much.

[golden rapids]

Not the point and not what I asked about. Btw, I worked for a cloud provider...

[sacred junco]

According to the ECI page of the initiative, they haven't passed the "gather enough support" phase

[scarlet zephyr]

Yeah pretty sure they have to answer this at some point.

[broken hound]

ok so talk of if crew is actual live service or forced online single player and ross being a vague idiot aside. genuinely, like genuinely. because im genuinely curious and cant wrap my head around why everyones somehow ok with how gaming has gone.

what has changed between the 90s and now? cause back before pay to play online and all this other weird forced live service and subscription model bs took over gaming, we had fully offline racing games with party play that had licensed vehicles and all things considered arent all that different from todays racing games. but now everything is forced online and "we have to delist games you paid for that are basically just single player games being forced onto servers cause liscensing" why have things gone this way?

like i could genuinely understand that old NFS mmo that used to exist being sunset cause it was genuinely an mmo of sorts where you could actually interact with people. but most the modern racing games really arent. theyre just single player games pushed to servers that have an optional online multiplayer component.

[uncut talon]

Ross' movement is definitely still at the gather support page according to the rest of his video, and it would have to hit different thresholds for signatures to count. IIRC, it's like 15k required in Greece.

[broken hound]

like im genuinely not trying to be a dick or sounds stupid or anything im genuinely just curious how or why everything is forced live service these days when we never used to in the old days

[golden rapids]

Look at my link, the request to the european commission is separate from that citizens initiative. One is a politician inquiring from the european commission, the other one is a citizens initiative. They apparently worked together but still it's two separate (even though related) things...

The Pirates party is targetting MMOs specifically, btw.

[sacred junco]

Oh, then if there's no report on that being looked at from the politician side, then we can only assume that they haven't looked at it

[foggy plover]

Because your dataz. Seriously though, there are many reasons to do this, but most of them probably revolve around having your data and/or being able to save your game config in their cloud.

[uncut talon]

The Crew should teach people to create their own cars without needing licenses for open world racing games.

To keep it online imho

[golden rapids]

Not necessarily, the constitutive session was at 23/07/2024, so the election is over...

[sacred junco]

Is beamng requires internet connection to play?

[uncut talon]

No.

I don't think so? I only have Project Cars.

[wintry pond]

wait... tos has actual words in it? no way

[uncut talon]

Kinda wish Playstation Studios would port the GT franchise to PC

But Project Cars scratches that itch.

[fleet parcel]

At this point, I think both sides aren't even arguing about the same topic anymore and just arguing because they have different opinions

[foggy plover]

Gamerz don't read stuff. Like that person who downvoted Heartbound because "it had no dialogue" LOLOLOLOL

[wintry pond]

true

[broken hound]

figures, cause yea. i genuinely see thors point and agree forcing live service to be live service forever is stupid. but at the same time i can also understand why gamers are upset when games are pointlessly forced online or forced to have an account to play.

[wintry pond]

if you dont like a part of a game, then, oh I dont know... JUST DONT PLAY IT

[golden rapids]

But in the eu it is regulated what you can put into your tos. We do not have the concept of a generic contract like the us has...

[foggy plover]

I just hate that these trolls keep baiting Thor back into the argument he no longer wants to have.

[fleet parcel]

Yep

[golden rapids]

That's the problem when you have such generic wording in a proposal. Everyone can project anything into it...

[scarlet zephyr]

Man this discussion is kinda sad...

like the trolls getting in there and doing that

[uncut talon]

I'm not even sure if it is trolls, or just people who don't have a decent enough reading comprehension.

Like I know I'm dumb and misremember stuff, but the people arguing against Thor just hurt my head.

[dreamy badger]

yeah I don't think the majority are trolls

[wintry pond]

its legal mumbo jumbo, and 99% of people dont understand shit about it

[uncut talon]

Like Thor keeps saying, Stop Killing Games is just this generation's version of Kony 2012.

[scarlet zephyr]

I dont know. I have my own take about that. If a game goes down because it is not profitable enough it makes sense.

I mean thats normal. You make a new product and turn off legacy products at some point.

[earnest mirage]

almost no one reads tos.
i remember a bunch of devs/publisher put some weird stuff into their tos. Some put a price in the TOS and the first couple of users contacting them with the information you get from the tos wins. Took weeks or months until the first one asked about it.

[golden rapids]

For me the point is when a live service game was marketed as a product, aka with a one time payment and without an explicitely stated usage period then it shoul be illegal to "render it inoperable". But if it is a live service game with e.g. a montly fee or if it was already stated at the shop page "available until 2030" or something like that, then no problem. (Also the TOS argument still doesn't apply to the EU, as it is regulated what you can hide within them and what not, as a consumer you basically do not have to read them as they are so restricted in what they can contain anyway...)

[uncut talon]

So there was this piece of Anti-Spyware software called Spybot Search and Destroy. Back when it was just maintained by one guy about half-way through the TOS it dropped the legalese and had a rant from the developer about how he needs to hire a lawyer to write the TOS for him, and if anyone doesn't read the TOS owes the solo developer of the software a pizza from Pizza Hut.

[broken hound]

boycotting and voting with your wallet doesnt really work effectively when all the available options face the same problem. nor does it work when your basically fighting the whale content creators that are borderline forced to play the newest installment of a game or otherwise stay on the same content or risk thier channel dying.

[foggy plover]

Love those 'easter eggs' in TOSs

[wintry pond]

oh no, I am only a single person, I cant make change in the world, why even try. Thats you rn

[golden rapids]

"Then make your own game", at least that's the common response to your argument that I've seen so far.

[uncut talon]

I always read the TOS hoping for easter eggs.

[scarlet zephyr]

I would love to find some funny TOS

[uncut talon]

There usually isn't any easter eggs, but I have a better understanding of what I'm agreeing to.

[golden rapids]

the thing is if you're in the EU only because it is within the TOS doesn't mean it is even leagaly binding...

[flint quartz]

i read TOS for lot of online games all the time to see what is their view and legal to things like external plugins / mods

[scarlet zephyr]

I mean if you break the TOS you loose access to stuff. If you break the TOS with your bank, then you will loose the access to your bank account.

[uncut talon]

I live in California, so even if I supported the movement I can't do much about it due to my geolocation on Earth.

[scarlet zephyr]

If you dont agree to the TOS dont buy it. Easy as that.

[golden rapids]

Still doesn't mean that it is legally binding. Some examples I know: e.g. in Austria you're by law allowed to reverse engineer and decompile any software for the purpose of fixing incompatibility or stability problems yourself. In Germany you don't have that right...

[uncut talon]

IIRC the TOS for Amazon Lumberyard has a Zombie Apocolypse clause buried in it.

[scarlet zephyr]

[golden rapids]

Still doesn't mean that it is legal...

[scarlet zephyr]

Well i mean thats not for us to decide. Thats an issue for a court.

[golden rapids]

That's what courts and lawyers are for and that is basically what they're arguing all day about...

[scarlet zephyr]

honestly I used to live in the EU and there were some really dumb laws. Like the DSGVO in Germany.

Basically what happened: Companies were not allowed, to give you service if you cant proove to them, that you are this person.

So what happened: You loose access to your e-mail and then you cant access other services.

[earnest mirage]

dsgvo is okay, but it's to vague and like always instead of rewrite and determine it, they add more and more stuff into it and turn it into a mess.

[scarlet zephyr]

I dont think it is okay.

[uncut talon]

Another funny easter egg, TOS for iTunes includes a clause that prevents people from using iTunes to create nuclear weapons.

[scarlet zephyr]

I had to deal with customers and tell them, I cant help you. Sorry about that but I cant trust you, that you are this person

congrats.

[golden rapids]

No, most of them just piced one dumb way in hopes to increase preasure from consumers on lawmakers in hopes to overturn the law... That's nagging...

I had to deal with DSGVO in a workplace setting as well as for customers. It technically was a relaxation of the law. But nobody previously cared because there were no fines attached...

we had an even stronger regulation before DSGVO, but without fines. So nobody cared...

[scarlet zephyr]

Okay another example. If you go to the Doctor you have to sign a waver, that the Doctor is allowed to give away your data to third parties. For example the labor, where your blood is going to. Thats a third party.

[golden rapids]

Actually not required by DSGVO...

[scarlet zephyr]

But you would be able to screw over the doctor if I am not mistaken?

[uncut talon]

Be a doctor, replace donated blood with bags of kool-aid.

But still mark it as blood.

[golden rapids]

only because it is done doesn't mean that it is leagally required. DSGVO implemented a concept of "implicit consent", aka. by the action of you being at the doctors you automatically agreed to them processing your data. Before DSGVO you would have had to sign that even then.

The exception was when they do something you did not expect and that is not required for the purpose you're there. Then they have to get explicit consent. (But talk to an actual lawyer and not an IT Technician and consultant that had to deal with the technical implementation and work together with the compliance teams on this topic instead if you want to know for sure).

[scarlet zephyr]

So do you know, where you data is being sent to? Who is processing your data?

[golden rapids]

Well that's the point. As long as you do not send them anywhere you do not need any of that... That was basically the reason why I had to deal with that stuff. I was at a cloud provider back then and we offered managed service to customers. As soon as we had access to any of the data (aka it wasn't encrypted and opaque to us) we had to inform customers that they need such a thing + a special contract with our company.

[earnest mirage]

it is. Exaplme, because of this, if you visit a website that would like to use any of your data, you have to been informed in which way they use it and also they need your permission.

[golden rapids]

Also many are confusing information that you have to provide with something that you have to get signed, too...

[scarlet zephyr]

I would prefer being able to decline cookies for example, Thats just me.

[golden rapids]

Not in all cases. It depends...

On a technical note if you have a cookie for sticky sessions on your load balancer it doesn't matter at all, however if you're logging the IPs of everyone accessing your service and are charting or analyzing it then I'd recommend talking to a lawyer...

Read the actual law, that helps a lot in this context btw...

[cerulean jacinth]

https://youtu.be/Q3oaHIJ47-0?si=PbVqpLNKsHSEy82W

[dry osprey]

My brain hurts from these weird sentences i hear from chat

Ah yeah english my worst enemy as 2nd language

[golden rapids]

That's how almost all discussions about legal topics go. I'm already happy if it isn't in a workplace setting and when I'm able to just walk away when it becomes too much...

[dry osprey]

People dont read and understand what is written. Its so sad

[golden rapids]

• that not everything that is written is also true, binding, or doesn't have other meaning because words were redefined (which also often happens with laws...)

[dry osprey]

Oh ye i dont even know the hole rules and laws here in germany and ngl i dont need to. My brain hurts more. Can we just go back to playing and developing video games

[golden rapids]

I'm envy you. I've to know way too much just to do my job and technically I'm not even able to talk about it freely as I always run the risk of it being perceived as "legal advice" which I'm (still) not allowed to provide...

[dry osprey]

Na dont worry so much about it. I know the stuff for work and so on in my country but ye

[golden rapids]

I've considered getting a legal degree and a lawyers license just for that. But that's also a shit ton of work...

Have you seen the compliance matrixes we've to deal with for e.g. CRITIS?

Legal stuff sucks...

[scarlet zephyr]

As soon as stuff touches legal, I just send it over to lega. I love doing tech stuff. I dont wanna deal with leagl stuff. Just want to make stuff secure and good for users. Basically good infrastructure.

[hidden haven]

always been surprised when watching something on youtube or reading something in a forum regarding legal stuff, people had to clarify that it was not a legal advice. for me it was always like "duh", because, like, how can someone "rnaodm" speaking on the internet can be understood as a legal advice

[golden rapids]

Well I cannot because they're the ones delegating it to us as it is "technicall stuff". E.g. do you really want legal to decide which TLS ciphers you're allowed to use?

[dry osprey]

Sadly some people see it as "legal advice".

[scarlet zephyr]

No but I would tell them, which ones are good and which ones, we should take.

[golden rapids]

If you don't you can get sued...

[hidden haven]

yeah i know, that's the craziest part for me 😄

[earnest mirage]

if you're using firefox you can change almost everything in about:config, but don't expect all websites to function normally if you crank it down to zero cookies.

[golden rapids]

Well but in order to do so you've to actually read all of that stuff first or you most of the times don't even know what the terms they use mean as many technical terms are redefined...

[scarlet zephyr]

Yeah I know. It kinda is funny. But even firefox sells your data now. So I probably will be switching to Brave.

[dry osprey]

I would always recommend asking a lawyer about certain laws before taking it from youtube or so

[scarlet zephyr]

A lawyer is paid to do that. I am not paid to do legal stuff.

[golden rapids]

Wo cares about youtubers, they most of the times don't even read the section of the law that defines the terms in that paper (if they read anything about it at all)...

[dry osprey]

Well asking a lawyer cost nothing usually

[strange owl]

Every time I look over at the stream Thor looks more and more dejected.

[scarlet zephyr]

If something is unsure, I will go to the lead of the department and ask him to clarify. If he cant clarify I expect him to talk to his boss/the lawyers

[dry osprey]

That is the problem. People take it from there and see it as how it fits them

[golden rapids]

But from experience, most of the times it is also surprisingly useless

[dry osprey]

I had no issue with my lawyer back in the day. But ye its always depending which lawyer it is at all

[hazy tendon]

But even firefox sells your data now.
please elaborate

[golden rapids]

And what the topic is. If there is no precedence and it is new the answer you get is "the law says <Insert quote from the law>". That is useless, I can read it myself. Especially if you're not even taking any legal liability off of me...

[foggy plover]

That game looks like actual TORTURE LOL

[jolly torrent]

I lost interest before clicking the link xD

[dry osprey]

Well if you have experience in reading that stuff, sure it helps. But for me its helping alot

[golden rapids]

Sounds like a troll. Their privacy policy explicitely says they do not sell any data... https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/faq

Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you, and we don’t buy data about you.

[vast furnace]

a dyslexic nightmare awaits in that game

[earnest mirage]

loading screen simulator

[scarlet zephyr]

https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/privacy-preserving-attribution-for-advertising/

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_about_private_attribution_in_firefox/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC444kMiNpI&

Sorry about the spam. Hope this does not get deleted.

had to do some digging.

[dry osprey]

Im not sure if i can really trust reddit with stuff like this.

[golden rapids]

Well if you think they lied you should talk to a lawyer about suing them. That's how that stuff works.

[vast furnace]

thors gone, post cursed thor pics

[dry osprey]

Rather give mods bread

[scarlet zephyr]

Well but what about the official Mozilla Blog?

[urban venture]

OH GOD!

[golden rapids]

Well then why are you at the table talking about it then?

[hazy tendon]

so you're saying that Mozilla already sells users' data because they're looking into adding Private Attribution to Firefox?

[scarlet zephyr]

thats 2022. Thats 2 years ago.

Pretty sure that update has ben rolled out.

[foggy plover]

@scarlet zephyr Read said Mozilla blog post. 4th paragraph.

[hazy tendon]

oh, well you can also easily opt out

[foggy plover]

Gotta read the whole thing instead of headlines

[golden rapids]

If you have evidence for breach of their privacy policy you do not even need to sue them yourself. You can also just report them to the data protection authorities...

[hazy tendon]

might as well just, opt out if you're gonna install Brave

and remember that Brave uses Chromium

[golden rapids]

People saying this is always funny to me. Especially Brave was created by a company selling ads...

[foggy plover]

4th paragraph says all collected data is anonymized.

[scarlet zephyr]

Yeah I know that.

I would love to know how it is being anonymized....

are they just removing my IP Adress? Or what else are they removing?

[lunar knoll]

El Rey?

[golden rapids]

I think they have to provide that information...

[foggy plover]

Well, READ THE PARAGRAPH and you'll have a better idea

[dry osprey]

You dont know what happens UNDER the table 😉

[hazy tendon]

also I understand this won't be the case for all operating systems, but Private Attribution seems to be completely disabled by default with no way to enable it (greyed out) for Firefox on Fedora, which I use.

[foggy plover]

I know what happens under the table: FOOTSIE

[scarlet zephyr]

Yeah you are right. Sorry about that.

[golden rapids]

Well, as someone working on such systems I just can tell you that there are high incentives in place for an insider reporting that shit... We're often personally liable for participation in that shit as it specialists...

(yes you read correctly "personally liable")

[foggy plover]

No worries. Just trying to be a good disciple of our Goblin Lord. Ya gotta read stuff and research.

[scarlet zephyr]

Yeah. I should have done that earlier. I was like maybe you should read into it. Normaly I do that .-.

[earnest mirage]

#thorchan message

[scarlet zephyr]

Oh they even released the idea behind it in a document.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KpdSKD8-Rn0bWPTu4UtK54ks0yv2j22pA5SrAD9av4s/edit?pli=1

[split spindle]

I hate it so much. Thank you

[vast furnace]

but of course.

the medicine has its intended effect.

[dreamy badger]

after reading some really dumb arguments in the twitch chat which thankfully seem to have died down a lot, I decided to make the logical fallacy bingo. To use it, find logical fallacies in twitch chat or youtube chat, and fill the bingo card accordingly.

Note: if you don't know what a specific logical fallacy is, every fallacy can be found and explained at: yourlogicalfallacyis.com

[scarlet zephyr]

This looks funny.

[vast furnace]

the free space is "what a bad take" right

[glad totem]

that is both funny and sad

[golden rapids]

Are you sure you don't need a bigger bingo card? That way the game is over almost instantly...

[vast furnace]

which one of those is "cherry picking"

we might have one

[wintry pond]

the longer this goes on, the more stupid shit I get. This has the same energy as "they cancelled my favourite tv show, they cant do it"

[vast furnace]

im so mad i cant get mcdonalds breakfast after 10:30am 🥺

imma pass legislation demanding all places that serve breakfast stay open 24-7

i need my egg mcgriddle

muh hashbrowns at 1am

[dreamy badger]

The texas sharpshooter

[vast furnace]

eeeey we got one

[broken hound]

At this point I genuinely think Thor's as emotionally invested in it as the trolls continuing it. Anyone else wouldve just started ignoring them long before now instead of continuing to feed them.

[golden rapids]

I think it is more of "fight fire with gasoline" what he's doing...

[dreamy badger]

some other common fallacies might not be on the bingo because I wanted a site to exist that has every fallacy and only the fallacies on the bingo board

[heavy vale]

this almost feels like being in time loop the amount of times i heard the same things again and again lol

[golden rapids]

Tbh, I don't undertand what Thor means with "would have to grant distribution rights". Aren't distribution rights the ones you need to distribute it further? But offering e.g. a download of the server software wouldn't need that. Why would they have to allow redistribution just to do that?

[strange owl]

All I know is that "Annoyed Thor" does not make for good streaming. I know it's not his fault, but the more worked up he gets the less I want to watch.

[dreamy badger]

I think that the argument that "who cares that the fact that they said that you only get the license for the game until it shuts down, no one reads the TOS" is just personal incredulity so you could probably mark that off too

[glad totem]

he is being consistent, everytime something disrupts the community and has implications on the industry, he keeps fighting. Right now its impossible to have a conversation about this out of the thor ecosystem

[vast furnace]

this is also a side effect of more and more people joining the stream at different times, who havent heard anything about it yet, and perpetuating the discussion

[glad totem]

yeap

[vast furnace]

as is to be expected of a 13 hour streamer

[broken hound]

😅😅I'm about ready to sacrifice my stream streak and miss a couple days to let the drama cool down a bit.

[golden rapids]

Same, but it is still a current topic and people in chat will keep talking about it anyway. So why not address it on stream? I don't think he could bann anyone and everyone talking about it or donating for him to talk about it...

[foggy plover]

Well in a way he's not. He did say earlier that he was done talking about this and was just gonna ignore these comments. But now he's actively letting himself be baited.

[heavy vale]

yeea am aware and thats why this will just keep going in infinite loop unless it will start get ignored cause there will be alway new people coming in

[vast furnace]

he might not but he does have a mod team and modderator tools to enact it.

he chooses not to strike it all down.

[foggy plover]

He HAS addressed. In EXHAUSTING DETAIL. For days now.

[strange owl]

He managed it pretty well with Helldivers tbh. Same deal but he basically made one statement and that was it. Sure he returned a few times, but it wasn't constant and he kept his mood up.

[golden rapids]

And apparently ther are still enough people perpetuing the topic by asking about it...

[strange owl]

Once Human on the other hand also got to him

[broken hound]

Yea no. At this point he's just baiting himself and killing the stream vibe. Any other time he wouldve just done a tweet or dropped the video like 2 hours ago and told people to refer to it instead of working himself up over the same stuff the entire stream

[golden rapids]

Lets wait and see what he does after he put up the youtube video he talked about earlier.

[foggy plover]

Those people will always be there. At least half of them are trolls. The only way to win is to not play the game 😉

[golden rapids]

Well then you cannot oppose it, nor complain afterwards that you were against what was passed...

[vast furnace]

"how do i revoke my signature"

https://tenor.com/view/war-vietnam-ptsd-shell-shock-moment-gif-3022747568394546158

[strange owl]

Tbh I have dipped in and out, I have no idea what he has and has not discussed at this point. Every time I turn the sound back on he is annoyed at someone.

[vast furnace]

we have now moved on to the ludwig method.

you there, person who is wrong, look at this google as you are banned

[foggy plover]

Huh? That makes zero sense. You can have Thor's opinion, discuss it at length for the past two days, then decide to not engage with the topic again??? Huhh?

[glad totem]

once the video on it is dropped, he will just refer to the video

[vast furnace]

refer to video, further question will take modderator involvement.

ez

solved.

Not every game.. can be TF2. As sad as it may be.

TF2 and other like games are an anomaly.

very rare for games to manage to last even half the lifespan of tf2

[broken hound]

I think the big thing that's got people egging him on is hes always going on about "forced online single player is bad" but treats the crew like it's WoW when in reality it's like the old school off-line NFS games just forced onto a server for no real reason. Also he seemingly fails to realise the crew wasn't what started it. Its what broke the camels back. The 20+ games that ubisoft delisted during the pandemic was the catalyst that started this discussion. The crew just pushed it into the forefront cause of the allegations of an off-line mode in the files ubisoft never released.

[vast furnace]

the word "might" is problematic in this assesment however.

[fresh ginkgo]

His video coming out will likely nuke most of this thing's momentum anyways

[vast furnace]

it needs to be a will, or will not.

[fresh ginkgo]

He is the "youtube shorts guy" after all

[vast furnace]

not a might

[wintry pond]

I dont trust the government with this, so it has to die here

[foggy plover]

Whataboutism isn't what he's fighting here. He's fighting the specifics being used in this initiative and what consequences such a potential law might cause.

[glad totem]

the same consultants that made the cookie gdpr laws?

[frosty ivy]

i think the editor will take the footage and splice it into a video so he can redirect people the video to anyone who asks

[vast furnace]

cant wait for them to checks notes speak with french game dev company, ubisoft, for the health and prosperity of the gaming industry

[fresh ginkgo]

Yeaaaah

[vast furnace]

depends, have they cleaned up the language yet to be straight or is it so vague that their own legal teams can draft up means of exploiting the laws.

[fresh ginkgo]

If the lawmakers are uninformed on a subject, they are susceptible to manipulation by such "consultants"

Because how are they going to know better?

[vast furnace]

but also large companies like ubisoft are ripe for surviving such things, as the indie devs crumble around them from not being able to maintain forever costs.

its why walmart can sell things for a loss as all the local mom and pop businesses near them crumble to ashes.

[broken hound]

Thats the problem tho, he's fighting the flaws in the initiative like a reasonable person, the people that keep bringing it up and egging him on are about the whataboutisms. Cause let's face it what the vague ass initiative says and what rhe original point and peopels original hope when it first started getting talked about back at the start of the years are 2 very different things

[vast furnace]

its not the literal walmart im talking about, its the concept of the goliathe that can eat toxic poisons that would kill all other smaller beings without so much as a stomach ache.

and vague laws and blind faith can allow such things.

[fresh ginkgo]

How is it a reasonable win?

[broken hound]

I know I'm just saying it keeps getting brought up in stream and people keep being dumb about it because they thing it's still the same thing they wanted to support at the start of the year despite Thor trying to tell em that what's actually been put forwards is very different could backfire massively

[fresh ginkgo]

And what if the game turns out a flop?

Are they supposed to just eat those costs for a year?

Even if it fails right out the gate?

....uhh, what?

[frosty ivy]

with the way the initiative is proposed, it seems like they want people to have the game indefinitely? in terms of live service

[golden rapids]

oh the cookies thing again. That's not how it works...

[vast furnace]

yes they would and it would further incentivize only supporting AAA studios financially as the risk is now even riskier with trying an indie studios idea.

[golden rapids]

wasn't supposed to be a reply...

[broken hound]

🤷‍♂️ hopefully it'll pull AAAs head in and finally realise they ain't above the playerbase for once lol

[frosty ivy]

from what i understand of what thor has said, he doesn't see a reason to involve the government in games this way

[sacred junco]

early onto the stream, he stated that the video was he recorded last night, finding the receipt atm

[fresh ginkgo]

Neither are players above them

Nobody is "above" anyone in this

[wintry pond]

ok so if we see summon that, we vote it

[fleet parcel]

chaos die

[fresh ginkgo]

This isn't exactly a good way to create precedent

Far too much risk of it going wrong and backfiring

Then no offense but your system needs work

Or make it more obvious to everyone else how it works if you somehow have a reliable way to mitigate the risks

[glad totem]

so what if the precedent that europe makes is every life service game needs to have a playable state, forever

[golden rapids]

Wrong, many things were decided by the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU)

[glad totem]

all mmo made in europe would collapse

[frosty ivy]

This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union (or related features and assets sold for videogames they operate) to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.

[frosty ivy]

no MMOs would ever be released in the EU

[fresh ginkgo]

How do you define "playable state"

[frosty ivy]

no more MMOs

[glad totem]

do we have an example of an initiative comparable to this, where involves publishers?

[wintry pond]

ok, you will own all of the 0 games that will come out, have fun

[golden rapids]

look at the website, all initiatives are public

[foggy plover]

You don't own them now. Do you ever read any game EULAs?????

[golden rapids]

Only because it is in the EULA doesn't mean it is legal...

[frosty ivy]

'why is my live service game not playable when live service ends'

[fresh ginkgo]

It's a type of contract, dude

Yes that is legal

[foggy plover]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You're cute.

[glad totem]

I was asking if someone already had knowledge, but thank you

[fresh ginkgo]

A EULA can't overwrite laws.
But is still legally binding within the bounds of the law

[granite perch]

People are dumb... People with these takes that things like live service video games should be evergreen and never dying are stupid and have probably never created anything in their life that has taken actual time and work

[golden rapids]

That's not how EULAs work in the EU. They're often not legally binding as we do not have the concept of a generic contract like the US and it is often regulated what you're allowed to put into it or what it can contain. If I recall correctly there were people that already sued in such cases and won...

[sacred junco]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2215420822?t=00h24m12s
finally

[vast furnace]

you own the game disk. you own the right to put the disk in the machine and boot it up. You have the right to go to the multiplayer tab and hit "search for Match." You do not own the online servers needed to connect to other players, who might not even be playing this 20 year old game, and when you go to the companies website to get a server, you merely rent one.

[golden rapids]

oh sorry then.

[golden rapids]

Nobody disputed that.

[glad totem]

i'm just trying to understand both sides, i'm in the middle, being an european, but don't like how it has become an battlefield and you can't talk about nuances of it

[fresh ginkgo]

Disputed what?

[sacred junco]

there, he said he recorded last night. which given the topic is about laws, it's fair that this has a script and not splice of things thor said and then people yelling off context or whatever

[golden rapids]

It is actually heavily regulated what a contract with private entities can contain. Only B2B is "everything goes"...

[frosty ivy]

i see !

[fresh ginkgo]

See, here's a fun thing about that.
We're dealing with global things here.

EU law aint the only factor you have to consider.

[frosty ivy]

yeah it's not just EU publishers and devs

[fresh ginkgo]

EU may be where the initiative is occurring, but it affects something that extents well beyond them

[golden rapids]

Sorry ment "nobody disagreed with that".

[fresh ginkgo]

You did

I was responding to you with it

How you claimed that a EULA wasn't legally binding

[golden rapids]

No, you wrote

A EULA can't overwrite laws.
But is still legally binding within the bounds of the law
That is exactly what I'm talking about...

[fresh ginkgo]

#streamchat message

And here is what you wrote

[foggy plover]

Folks like "StopKillingGames" like using the EU as a testbed for their "movement", because the EU is seen as passing consumer-friendly laws. And for mega companies like Apple, passage of certain laws can potentially benefit lots of other countries. Which is why they're targeting this movement there. Doesn't mean it will work though.

[golden rapids]

Well maybe badly worded. But I ment the same as you...

[fresh ginkgo]

....
Now I'm confused

[uncut talon]

All terms of services, and end user license agreements must be passed by a lawyer or legal team before being enacted.

[frosty ivy]

there's something to be said about certain about certain live service games but with the way this initiative is, it seems like it's looking at all live service games without considering the games that fall under that

[golden rapids]

I ment "Only becasue something is in the EULA doesn't mean it is legal" as in if there is a law that says you cannot put A into the EULA and you put A into the EULA then A being in the EULA is irrelevant for determining if it is legal or not.

[fresh ginkgo]

Ah

[frosty ivy]

like even now, we can't even agree what the initiative is doing. multiple people have come forward about the initiative and every single person says the initiative is about a different thing

[foggy plover]

The thing I think is being cherry-picked (BINGO!) from the EULA discussion is that in certain countries, they won't let companies force arbitration over a person's right to use their respective court systems. This does not mean the entirety of a EULA is illegal.

[fresh ginkgo]

The automod regularly teaches me words I didn't realize count as actual swears

[golden rapids]

Well that's because of vague wording...

(in the case where people actually read it, at least)

[fresh ginkgo]

It also prevents me from sharing a specific game I enjoy just because it has a bad word in the name despite having absolutely nothing to do with said word

[glad totem]

my head hurts with all of this, the initiative left so many things open to interpretation, and thats not good

[golden rapids]

Well technically it does, but that's why we have stuff like:

Should any provision of this Agreement, or any provision incorporated into this Agreement, be or in the future become invalid or unenforceable, the validity or enforceability of the other provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected thereby.

[fresh ginkgo]

"Drunken Robot <bad word here, starts with a P>", if you wanna look it up on steam. It's basically just a 3D bullet hell

[foggy plover]

Different legislative bodies have different laws. The US just passed such a law, but it only focuses on forced arbitration clauses.

[sacred junco]

I guess you know what thor takes issue with this initiative other than vague wordings right?

[golden rapids]

You can also set precedent by suing a company. Especially if there isn't any specific law about it yet...

[jolly sky]

The best way I've figured out to explain Single player games vs Live service games and compare them to real life is this

Single Player game = Like a CD, Spend the money once and can boot up and listen to/play at any time

Live Service = Like a Festival, a time limited experience where the money you spend may help enhance that experience, but that experience is still time limited.

[sacred junco]

Complete non eu citizen here, and this is a genuine question, stems from thor's last problem with this initiative. Is it hard and slow for the EU legistative officials to change the laws once it has been ratified?

he fears slow legistative process while correcting the law will cause enough damage to the industry

[golden rapids]

Well before all of the "European Self Sovereign identity" garbage I would have said I trust the EU with decissions relating technical topics...

[sacred junco]

Right.

yea that's all I have to ask

[golden rapids]

Well the issue is politicians generally do not want to touch laws they just recently passed. Regardless of what the actual process is. Technically we even have systems and processes for when a specific eu regulation causes issues for your, others, ...

[sacred junco]

I still, don't have a stance on this whole thing.

[golden rapids]

Taht is perfectly fine and you also do not have to. It is a clusterf**k either way...

[glad totem]

the way EU implements things is, they say "you have X time to apply this in your country", the law is sometime vague, we scramble till the last year of the implementation trying to understand the right way to implement it, by the time everyone in EU has implement it, its difficult to move to the ship to other directions

at least, thats what happens here in portugal

[golden rapids]

It is already defined what a game is. However I do not know if there is only one definition for it...

[fallow fable]

basically just dont buy games with drm and you are free

[sacred junco]

Khronos is a lawyer but I don't know if he practiced on EU laws as well.

[golden rapids]

Btw, regarding how the entire process of passing laws works in the EU: https://learning-corner.learning.europa.eu/learning-materials/council-simulation-game_en

[frosty ivy]

i think khronos might be in europe?

[fallow fable]

is he british?

[foggy plover]

Khronos is British yes

[golden rapids]

No, as he is in the UK and UK is not part of the EU.

[static otter]

Has Thor seen Ross's comment on the stream VOD?

[fallow fable]

it was not too long ago

[golden rapids]

right, ups...

[glad totem]

also takes years for that here, he had problems where we got reprimanded for not implementing laws in the right time, and our government scrambles to actually implement it

[sacred junco]

He did. and he has responded to it yesterday and today as well

[golden rapids]

except where they don't...

[static otter]

Ah cool

[static otter]

Is there a clip somewhere or timestamp?

[golden rapids]

yea, and some countries never implement specific laws and just opt to pay the fines...

[frosty ivy]

you might find the timestamp

[golden rapids]

Wrong, not always. Not all have to, some are automatically in force when passed.

[sacred junco]

https://www.youtube.com/live/4cJHw09gzQo?si=wOXbi-ac17siPVUI&t=12245
this is yesterday.
as for today, at -6:05:40 using youtube timestamp standard

[static otter]

Cheers!

[golden rapids]

Which this almost definitely would be. It would regulate the gaming market...

(But there are also thers. See: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/the-direct-effect-of-european-union-law.html)

[wintry pond]

thats a clip

[golden rapids]

Here is the clip from last stream about the hiring process Thor is just now talking about btw: https://clips.twitch.tv/GrossAbstruseHabaneroDxCat-jf46lE-NoAGB77qp

[glad totem]

gonna have to read more and maybe hear the point of view of an european lawyer on it, at this point tho I feel like single player games should be able to play without a connection, i'm on the fence of how this should be applied to live service games, (and possibly services?)

but right now I just want ferret photos

[rugged jasper]

excuse me TTS chat member???

[bright rover]

Theres always that one chatter...

[rugged jasper]

i hope it's not true
because if it is true i do feel bad for them

[high blaze]

what was the question

[golden rapids]

I'd like that for every game that isn't free to play nor a subscription as soon as it isn't offline playable...

[high blaze]

[fresh ginkgo]

#answered-tts message

Heavy somnic inertia right there

Just like..
No matter the sleep/wake status; body don't wanna budge

[golden rapids]

Something the lines of "this game will be playable at least until <insert date here>" similar to the "best before date" on cornflakes...

[jolly sky]

Yea so far that is the only part I support. The inability to lock away Single Player games that have a mandatory online sign in requirement. Devs should definitely release an offline patch for that.

[static otter]

Yeah, singleplayer games or games with singleplayer would be the easiest to argue right about

Was it one of assassin's creed games that shut down few years ago because the servers for the always online drm check were shutting down?

[rugged jasper]

oh no D:

[fresh ginkgo]

The funny thing is

[static otter]

wait what happened?

[fresh ginkgo]

Thor has actually AGREED that those are a problem

[glad totem]

yeah, I know

[static otter]

oh god

[foggy plover]

True, but also, while he hates the practice, he doesn't advocate for legislation to make companies stop doing it.

[static otter]

top shit tts

oh god. Feel sorry for them though

[fresh ginkgo]

Because keeping government out of it

A guy is allowed to have, and stand by, principles

[static otter]

Oh it's you D:

There's a video that completely ruined these two words for me and I can't see them without seeing that part of the video

https://tenor.com/view/dracula-flow-i'm-him-i-been-him-i-will-continue-to-be-him-gif-11190399534092412874

[glad totem]

i get that

the word "fan" has been ruined to me this year

[static otter]

lack toast intolerant?

could be worth checking out

[drowsy ermine]

Now the Peach song is stuck in my head

[brittle crow]

When Thor releases that pants video about this stop killing games, the comment section will be quite the minefield.

[sacred junco]

the youtube vods for the past 2 days has already been a minefield
but yea, this is gonna be the biggest

also the intel short as well, with people just yelling planned obsolescence

[brittle crow]

I think it's fine if people disagree with him. I don't agree with everything Thor is arguing, but I respect his opinion.

[minor turtle]

Planned obsolescence would requires more malice and less total incompetence on intel’s part

[glad totem]

right?

[sacred junco]

Yes.
Just because the 13th coincidentally started to degrade near the end of its warranty program doesn't mean Intel is planning planned obsolescence on their products. commentsectionMD also conveniently ignored the fact that the 14th gen series is also affected and those are nowhere near the end of the warranty period.

[minor turtle]

Now covering up the fact that they knew about the issues in 2023 possibly all the way back in 2022 is malicious but the flaws themselves are just incompetence cause no way would intel do anything that makes AMD look good intentionally

[glad totem]

oh they did that plenty with the responses of this debacle

[sacred junco]

Yep.

[glad totem]

question, does it affect just the desktop? is there any report on the mobile versions?

so far all the reports I've seen are unclear about the mobile versions

[sacred junco]

There are reports on affected mobile cpus as well, the HX suffix ones. Those are essentially the desktop die packaged into the laptop socket.
but so far intel has not response about this specifically iirc

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/intel-says-13th-and-14th-gen-mobile-cpus-are-crashing-but-not-due-to-the-same-bug-as-desktop-chips-chipmaker-blames-common-software-and-hardware-issues

oh nvm, we have a response already

[glad totem]

thanks gonna read it

oh jeez... intel really clogged the toilet. Saying it has instability issues but not the same issues, doesn't offer peace of mind

[outer mauve]

"Intel has investigated Intel and Found that the manufacturer defect in these chips that causes instability is not causing instability in these chips"

OKAY DUUUDE

Fuckin Intel man

[glad totem]

i'm really sad, i've grew up with this companies being the bastion of innovation and tech, before the "line goes up" was more important

[sacred junco]

I mean, until someone paid up that independant failure analysis fee like what GN is waiting, we have to take intel's statement

[violet dock]

I know it might be shouting into the void here, but the stop killing games thing comes from the frustration of the software industry including gaming changing the language in the fine print but not the advertising. If you look at how the transactions went in the past Games and other software were advertised the same.

this is not "oh I did not read so you owe me something" this is "you KNOW I would not engage with this if you told me everything in natural langauge"

[glad totem]

my situation is, i'm in the phase of searching for a new laptop, giving my hard sweat money for something that already has this kind of track record, makes me feel like if i bought one with this chip, I was getting in line to get slapped

[outer mauve]

Sure, But you also have to take intel's statement in the context of their recent failures, They had a Manufacturing issue that lasted 2 generations of chips

[sacred junco]

HOLD THAT.

the manufacturing issue was resolved in 2023 and that only affects the 13th gen

is what we have so far

[outer mauve]

it is 13th and 14th gen chips
https://community.intel.com/t5/Processors/July-2024-Update-on-Instability-Reports-on-Intel-Core-13th-and/m-p/1617113#M74792

As Per intels own website

this is Intel's own community forums, Posted by an Intel employee

[glad totem]

thanks for the link

[outer mauve]

No problem

It's a HUGE problem and it affects A LOT of chips

[sacred junco]

Yes, but that is attributed to microcode issue, which is a software issue.
the manufacturing you mentioned is the oxidation issue, of which per intel statement (which has been altered since originally posted) was addressed in 2023.
They decided to post about this on reddit of all places, but here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/1e9mf04/intel_core_13th14th_gen_desktop_processors/

https://web.archive.org/web/20240724011726/https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/1e9mf04/intel_core_13th14th_gen_desktop_processors/
before altered version

they denied that oxidation issue is even related to some of those CPU crashing

and I agree that this is a massive problem

[glad totem]

I'm all for going to where your audience is, but PR on reddit? come on Intel....

[outer mauve]

The microcode they're talking about is native to the processor, That is why Intel is releasing a patch to help prevent the problem, It doesn't fix it, it just stops it from getting worse.

This is Still intel's Fault, and it's still across 2 entire generations of chips, Yes They fixed it in 2023, But it was a problem in 2022, How long did they make chips while this was a known problem?

6 months?

9 months?

a year?

Longer?

and besides that

The post you linked is dated 7/24/24

The post I linked is a later statement on 7/29/24

5 days afterwards

[glad totem]

worse is, then can't even recall the product and offer a new without the problem...

[sacred junco]

be honest with me, do you think i'm playing down the gravity of the intel issue?

[glad totem]

I don't think so

the links you've both shared paint how grim the situation is

[outer mauve]

Yes? The way I read your responses feels like you're trying to defend intel a little or shift blame from them or minimize how many chips were affected

[sacred junco]

oh well then that's my bad I guess

[outer mauve]

It might also just be the way I'm reading it

[sacred junco]

I took issue with you claming that intel had a manufacturing issues for 2 generations, when with all official statement that we had so far, that manufacturing issue was supposed to be done with in 2023.
The question that you asked about how long was intel producing chips with this defect, I don't have an answer. The way I read"addressed" in intel statement about this particular issue is that they have fixed the cause of the defect, and replace all affected chips. if you think those issues are partly why intel cpus are crashing now, that's a fair assumption.

tinfoil hat on, with physical defects like this at the atomic scale of those deposition layers, normally the cpus won't live that long, so in my opinion, I don't think there's many CPUs currently in live systems right now that have that oxidation issue.
So far the microcode shooting higher than maximum opearting voltage makes sense to me as the main cause of failure, as the failure pattern from different sources all seems to be slowly degrading over time until frequent crashing, instead of sudden death out of the blue.

the crashing issue as a whole is massive and very serious

and the way intel communicates to the public is very disingenious in my eye

[outer mauve]

So, Raptor Lake 14th Gen was released as the 14th gen CPUs in October 2023

The Raptor Lake 13th gen CPUs were released in October 2022

So it seems, Looking at both of these and considering that the Problem was fixed in 2023 I think it lasted at least 7-12 months.

The reason for that being, They didn't catch the oxidation in QA. if they did, they would have tossed those CPUs out, or found the problem affecting the 13th gen, and fixed it before they started production on the 14th.
I think they didn't catch it until after 14th gen was too far into production to fix it.

once they had enough of the 13th fail out in the field for it to become an actual consistent issue that they investigated and found the cause of, 14th was already deep in production and they did the same thing car manufactures do when faced with the possibility of a manufacturer recall

They did the math on how much it would cost to recall and replace, taking into account how much stock prices would fall if Intel, unprompted, admitted manufacturer defects in 13th and 14th gen chips
VS
they just keep quiet about it fix the problem and do RMAs and assume no one is smart enough figure out the cause and then stock prices are fine

Fortunately, Gamers Nexus is AMAZING and shit in their cereal

But I agree with you, Intel is communicating like its your fault their CPUs are failing, and they have to inconvenience themselves to do you a favor to replace it

makes me Glad I'm AMD

[sacred junco]

Yep. I am conservative when talking about hot issues like this, and currently I only work with what we have officially from the mouth of intel, theories i.e ring bus failure populated by MILD I only take it as it is, A Failure Theory. Please understand if I've been defensive in claming what causes these failures.
hopefully we won't have to wait that long tho, we should get the failure analysis reports from the vendor GN hired very soon.

[sacred junco]

well defensive is a poor choice of word, more like conservative

[foggy plover]

Cautious

[static otter]

I kinda want Thor to install the Skill Issue mod

The one that replaces Game Over text with Skill Issue

[sacred junco]

that's the one. English 2nd language is hard

[sacred junco]

can you change that to Noita'd?

[static otter]

Oh he's ending the stream early :o

[sacred junco]

dropped frames is gonna be a great time

[static otter]

That's a good idea. I'll check out how this mod works, maybe I can mod the mod

[glad totem]

oh I get that so much

[sacred junco]

mod-ception lets go
when will we can mod the mods of the mod tho 😉

[strange owl]

I believe Noita means witch

[foggy plover]

Correct

[static otter]

Nine inch nail's new hot single, "Mod of a"

[modest palm]

so is Thor gonna be a permanent member of the Podcast, or is that another one?

[sacred junco]

they invited him back, so another guest appearance

[static otter]

What are they gonna talk about on the podcast

[sacred junco]

you probably guessed it already

[foggy plover]

Hopefully not The Crew 😉

[glad totem]

the other pod starts when he has fiber right?

[sacred junco]

the one with prime? I believe so

[foggy plover]

Yes. Lots of things will come to pass when he gets his connection operational

[glad totem]

yeah the one with prime, mustache and something?

[foggy plover]

Hack n' Stache

[glad totem]

that

[modest palm]

oooooh I confused those two

[fossil sapphire]

if Thor only would read the initiative they presented as it's not the law they are proposing, but for law makers to actually look into it :) but "too vague" i guess.

[graceful willow]

stream ended early?

[split burrow]

yep

[fossil sapphire]

thor is here https://www.twitch.tv/itmejp

on Dropped Frames.

[split burrow]

oh

[strange owl]

Here's to hoping they won't spend all night rehashing the same subject we've been doing all night.

[static otter]

Suppose we're on a timeline where SKG does get some law passed. It would be YEARS and many back and forth ammending shit before anything goes through.

[modest palm]

I am entirely sure they will lmao

[fossil sapphire]

ohno, they have Rami Ismail there too

the singularity is gonna happen

[strange owl]

I'm afraid so too

[modest palm]

I gladly watch Thor shut more people down for a teribble initiative.

[limpid widget]

I hope thor gets forced to comply with pro-consumer regulations and hates every minute of compliance.

[static otter]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2241539626

it exists

[sacred junco]

yes very good

[static otter]

alright who has 500 bits to get this through to Thor?

[polar fog]

Pirate Software talked about how he doesn't support the initiative relating to online game. I agree with a lot of his points but someone brought up that the initiative wants to be able to host community servers. I know Thor talked how P2P is a bad idea, though what is wrong with brokering servers or a community server? The community can pay to keep the server up, so I don't see the issue with that. Is it the fact that feel entitled that companies should be forced to allow for dedicated server hosting on their own servers?

[modest palm]

woah the stream is super cool, you can click on the people on stream to get infos about them. How does that even work??

[static otter]

Twitch has overlay extensions, probably that

[modest palm]

thats so cool!

[outer mauve]

I beleive it is the "IGDB.com game plugin information" extension

[sacred junco]

nope, it's the dropped frame one

[modest palm]

I had no idea that was even a thing

[sacred junco]

changes with the scene as well

[outer mauve]

fair enough

[limpid widget]

the initiative has nothing to do with forcing companies to support or host servers, thor keeps repeating that it does because thor has been raging on stream for days

[static otter]

Twitch has a few extension APIs for different things, like those widgets below the stream, overlays, maybe more

[outer mauve]

I saw that and assumed it was branding and not a plugin

[polar fog]

Oh, what is it trying to do?

[fossil sapphire]

cohh and JP have a big team behind them, who build them UIs and plugins

I mean, mostly Cohh's team but still

[limpid widget]

For live service games, upon end of support, the company would have to release the server binaries so that the comunity can support it's own severs, only if binaries are even required though.

[fossil sapphire]

the people behind the initiative are angry cos a game with tacked on online mode was brought offline. Thor is mad cos he read the vague enough initiative text and got mad thinking it was the legislation they were trying to pass.

[limpid widget]

They don't need to release source code, provide distribution rights, or do literally anything beyond release what's already useless to them

[fossil sapphire]

this is more about getting the problem in the hands of lawmakers.

[foggy plover]

Then why are the initiative folks not linking the proposed legislative document?

[static otter]

Kinda sad that Ross had that section in the video that made Thor not want to speak to the guy at all. Would've been nice if they could've talked about it nicely and iron things out.

[fossil sapphire]

it is there, but you actually have to read the whole document.

[foggy plover]

If it were there, I'd think Thor would have found it by now.

[fossil sapphire]

i feel like the hard problem here to solve is, how to target this for games like The Crew, and not every other online game.

[limpid widget]

This? The part thor keeps willfully misreading because he's fishing for a reason to not have to talk to the creator about it?

This whole slide is a response to cynical takes about "we can't do anything, we have no power, our petition means nothing" etc

[foggy plover]

How is he misreading that? It's pretty clear

[limpid widget]

But somehow thor is treating ross like he's a corrupt politician over it. He's a small youtuber lol

[foggy plover]

Oh, it's "sarcasm"??? LOL nice try

[limpid widget]

he makes half live videos. It's not nefarious intentions

[limpid widget]

It's not sarcasm, read my words. It's a response to defeatism.

If you want to jump to the stupidest possible interpretation though, sure, be wrong.

[foggy plover]

So, again, if that's his response to defeatists, it's still incredibly bad.

Thor has already laid that out. He's not misreading anything. He's just disagreeing with you. That's not the same thing. But sure, be wrong if you wish.

[limpid widget]

They're facts???

[sacred junco]

is this very important context comes from a different video, is this a response from those cynical takes from the comment section of the video announcing the initiative?

[limpid widget]

Yes, this initiative has been ongoing for a long time. Probably the most common response he gets

[sacred junco]

meanwhile, we are back on the bungie thing

oh boi, this is gonna be fun

[foggy plover]

"Reasons the ECI COULD pass" does NOT = facts. They are opinions.

[modest palm]

either way using "Politicians want a win" and "lets social engineer polticians" is a terrible start up for your petition.
I am not gonna support that level of stupidity no matter if the goal is good or not.

[fossil sapphire]

it's not the people making the petition saying these are they 🤔

[limpid widget]

Politicians literally want a win. That's the point. It's not socially engineering politicians either, that's thor projecting

[foggy plover]

The guy who made that video is the leader of the petition movement, isn't he?

[limpid widget]

It's literally, how do we get this passed on a practical level.

[sacred junco]

then I would hope that he said that in that video, which he isn't?
coming from "is this as simple as people sign this and it becomes law in the EU? Uh, yeah, it might be!" and then he started listing those reasons as for why, it just sounds like he's doing bastard negotiating with the ECI.

[frosty ivy]

stream ended early?

[sacred junco]

he got invited back on dropped frames, check out jp's channel

[modest palm]

https://youtu.be/mkMe9MxxZiI?si=My_1L1TDDqc3F3aj&t=205

[sacred junco]

#streamchat message

[fossil sapphire]

i dont know, this is why i'm asking.

[limpid widget]

ross is a small youtuber who is advocating for consumer rights and archival and preservation because nobody else was. Thor certainly wasn't.

[modest palm]

He infact is, and yes he said that.
Look at the timestamp.

[foggy plover]

Oh. So yes, per Thor, that guy (in that video just linked) is the leader of the petition.

[fossil sapphire]

then it feels inflammatory as hell. lmao.

there are good intentions. but man.

[fossil sapphire]

i'm done with the topic bye :DD

[sacred junco]

I will refrain from commenting on this statement. I don't know thor neither ross enough from their videos.

[foggy plover]

LOL Thor isn't because the way they're going about this is incredibly short sighted and will damage the games industry if implemented as explained.

[frosty ivy]

thank you

[limpid widget]

Thor hates the idea of live service games getting preserved. He wants them to die. He has said this openly, that's his starting value position. I find his disgusting he goes on to smear and misinterpret obvious things to such an extent based on a different initial value judgement.

[sacred junco]

np! 🙂

[foggy plover]

Yeah, you disagree with him. Doesn't mean he does not understand the topic or not have facts in his side of the debate.

[limpid widget]

He's extremely anti consumer and thinks any live servise game he runs is exclusively his, and no rights at all are given to any customers. This is objectively a anti-customer PoV.

[sacred junco]

and you guys should start giving receipts on when both thor and ross claims what they said tbh.

[foggy plover]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA hilarious

[frosty ivy]

from what i recall of his stance, the preservation of a live service game should be up to the devs, the owners of the IP

[modest palm]

yes.

[sacred junco]

I'm also out, this stop killing game thing will def most likely get discussed on the podcast.

[static otter]

I wouldn't say thor is anti consumer. I don't necessarily agree on his stance on live service games, but mmm I wouldn't call him extremely anti consumer

[limpid widget]

The owners of the IP can't just do whatever they want as soon as they're getting selling a product. If they're running a completely free game, that's one thing. But customer rights are incredibly important and basically don't exist in gaming up to this point. He has been a direct part of that with his time in blizzard while they started pushing always online SP games, that's where his bias comes from.

[frosty ivy]

consumer rights don't exist in gaming?

[limpid widget]

There's a reason thor had to make an attempt to fight back against the helldivers issue to begin with.

[foggy plover]

OMG deluded. They can do WHATEVER is in the EULA and other terms of service that you agree to before you purchase the game. Except for things that attempt to strip ACTUAL citizen rights like right to use the judicial system etc. If you don't agree with their terms you don't sign the contract. Plain and simple.

[limpid widget]

In countries with strong consumer protection, the EULA is toilet paper.

It never overrides customer rights.

[foggy plover]

If it was there would be no EULA attached to the game in those countries. Keep trying to make your argument with your feelings though.

[frosty ivy]

because the EULA is made with consumer rights in mind

[limpid widget]

It's widely known and a matter of fact that in a lot of the EU a huge portion of EULAs are straight up unenforcable. They aren't written with consumer rights in mind, they claim rights to everything and just fail upon challenge.

This is even true for many of the worst terms in the US, though in the US companies get a lot more leeway to write their own law.

[foggy plover]

@limpid widget Do you even understand what you're getting when you "buy a game", in general terms?

[limpid widget]

In the EU, you are buying a good. You own a copy of the game perpetually. In the US, you are buying a license and you basically have no rights as a buyer, it sucks.

They can shut down the servers the day after you buy it and you have no recourse. If you're lucky, you can get a steam refund which is a system steam implemented because of australian law. But they applied it globally anwyays.

Which is why the EU getting this passed is so important. It will give people options globally.

[frosty ivy]

this is assuming all games are live service games...

[foggy plover]

We too own a copy of the install software, to use, usually on a single device at a time. Beyond that, you don't have access to their source code, you can't redistribute their software, you don't own their server/online services, etc. "Owning a copy of the game" doesn't mean what you think it does.

[limpid widget]

I don't see how it is. What i said applies to all forms of games except subscription games, which clearly tell you the length of use of the service. This is clearly outlined in the stop killing games campaign. It does not apply to subscription purchases.

[frosty ivy]

this doesn't apply to many games

like RPGs

[limpid widget]

SKG isn't asking to redistribute software but it's requiring devs to distribute server binaries to owners so that the copy of the game you purchase is still operable in some form.

redistribution to new players is not the same thing as distributing a functional copy of the software required to get it running to existing owners

[foggy plover]

Right. Which everyone who "bought the game" agreed that they don't have rights to have.

[foggy plover]

I was just laying out some of the general terms you normally see. Didn't say SKG was saying that. Relax.

[limpid widget]

The reason terms like this are regulated is because they're problems for consumer rights, agreeing to the ToS doesn't superscede law, which is the point. Regulating these kinnd of anti consumer terms is a very widespread practice and it's only because gaming is new that it hasn't happened yet.

Especially live service gaming and always online singpleplayers are a new practice in a legal timeframe.

[foggy plover]

Uh, your movement is trying to get it put INTO LAW. It's not in there now. Which you can petition your government to do, but you're implying that this specific case is already illegal, when it's not.

[limpid widget]

I'm pretty clearly saying that regulating bad ToS terms is widespread, and then i said it hasn't happen yet right there. reading is good for you.

[foggy plover]

"gaming is new" OMEGALUL. Gaming has been around since the 60s. Gaming is NOT NEW. And this particular game was available for 10 YEARS, and no one ever bitched about the EULA until now. Where were all of you 5-10 years ago trying to change this practice in games?

[minor turtle]

I can see both sides of this however coming from an American perspective the stop killing games petition is far too broad in what is wants and vague in how it wants to go about doing this. In the US there is no following the spirit of the law like you tend to see in the E.U. only exactly what is written even and especially if it can be used to screw over the little guy. the point being I understand and to some extent agree with what the stop killing games crowd is wanting but can also see how they way they are going about this could back fire especially in the U.S. handing something like that to government won’t do what you want it to do

[limpid widget]

If thor cared at all about live service preservation or consumer rights he'd just talk to ross, help make the changes that need to be made (ross is utterly and completely willing to adapt to feedback and has been begging for help running the campaign as he's not a politician at all, he could not be more open and receptive on this topic). But the reality is, thor wants to keep killing games, his ex blizzard corporate biases came out in a surprising way.

[unique lance]

https://tenor.com/view/kurt-angle-stare-100-yard-stare-meme-gif-251436459491629941

[foggy plover]

..... And there it is. Back in your feels. When your arguments are laid bare and hollow, you run back to name-calling

[unique lance]

you're all being kind of dickish and might need to step away

[minor turtle]

I can see this won’t be productive so bye and have a good rest of your day

[limpid widget]

There was literally no name calling there.

[limpid widget]

I'm still being less dickish than thor so there's really no issue at all. Thor has been raging mad on stream for days and has been personally attacking ross.

[foggy plover]

"personally attacking" "less dickish than Thor" I'm done. You keep my point for me.

[unique lance]

you're not being any better :\

[limpid widget]

shrug I don't let people high road lol, thor sets the standard here.

[foggy plover]

Thanks Psy. Appreciate your take /s

[astral shuttle]

Take a walk outside, y'all exhausting

[brittle crow]

Chat has been exhausting the entire day and past few days lol

[unique lance]

Yeah I've been taking a break from the stream because of it

[static otter]

So, as I was saying. Anyone got 500 bits for tomorrow to get Thor to install that Noita mod.

[unique lance]

Super not interested with thor and chat constantly having a battle

[frosty ivy]

i got no bits unfortunately

[minor turtle]

Which mod

[static otter]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2241539626&searchtext=

The one that changes game over to noita'd

[limpid widget]

Honestly i feel like thor has been turbo stressed by his commute and is reverting to unga bunga get mad brain instead of addressing the issue in a level headed way. Maybe he'll level off in a week or so.

[minor turtle]

Oh I thought you would want him to get the mod that makes his face the worm

[static otter]

Did he see that one yet?

[minor turtle]

Not sure

[limpid widget]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SgTf_ghiRU

Rossman is an OG consumer rights advocate and has been fighting like hell for right to repair in the US. Backing stop killing games for good reason.

[astral shuttle]

Its not impossible he's wrong

I'll watch later

[static otter]

oh this is the video that you have to just listen to because audio and video desync

gets progressively worse

[astral shuttle]

Hm ok, anti cloud. Misses point again that multiplayer and single player use cloud very differently

He's also pro hard copy, actual ownership

Well, idk. That's an old wound

[static otter]

He's pretty vocal about ownership.

Speaking of which, this got mentioned on previous stream. FUTO. I'm setting up their immich thingy

It seems like a very well rounded direct alternative to g photos

[strange owl]

I'm so glad they did not rehash "the topic", I wonder if Thor vetoed it

[foggy plover]

It's a distinct possibility

[strange owl]

I was worried I'd have to switch off to not have to hear the same thing for the umpteenth time but was pleasantly surprised. The podcast was once again a great listen and I stayed for the whole thing.

[frail bison]

The whole Earth Defense Force series is just insane dumb fun, and it's glorious. But yeah that Epic stuff has to go before I re-buy (after refunding my preorder) EDF6. If you bought on Steam, it required an Epic Login, which was unannounced (at the time of launch, it's on the Steam store page now), and when you launched on Steam, it immediately did an unprompted Epic Game Store install.

[foggy plover]

It's not over yet?

[strange owl]

More or less over, they're doing the "what are we playing" part

[cinder knot]

Hi @minor nymph this is SatoPlaysGames from the twitch TTS message this morning and you asked for some more information about the new Japanese tax laws. I got this video from when they first proposed is in October 2023 I believe they went into effect on March of this year or they moved to the next phase
https://youtu.be/vzH014RvZ10?si=jgMcPEE1ffIanYiC

Sorry I ended up falling asleep and saw the answer just now

[stone nacelle]

Hmm, is this where more personal information of animators are accessible publicly putting theirs lives at risk?

[fossil sapphire]

"A new Japanese law will essentially require manga authors who use pen names to disclose their true identities to tax collection agencies."

which many dont.

[ivory knot]

does anyone know what happened to the dropped frames podcast filmed today? I can't find it anywhere?

[modest palm]

With some vods/channels it takes a while before theyre out.
Give it a little.

Lemme just double check for you, maybe this is a glitch on your end

Not on your end.

[ivory knot]

huh twitch is either broken or the episode was taken down then 🤔 V odd

[modest palm]

I have no idea why it might have been taken down?
I watched a good chunk of it and nothing really weird happend

[ivory knot]

I confirmed either twich or the podcast themselves took it off of twitch.
they did post the episode to YouTube just a few mins ago!

https://youtu.be/S5tjnfEQWFc?si=uQrAaFy7bz6S4FpD

for anyone else that is looking^^

[modest palm]

alright, thats good en!

[zealous frost]

Thor gets fiber tommorow

Tuesday morning

At least the sla will pay 😂

[regal crescent]

😦

[split meteor]

Not sure why this wasn't the case already, tbh

Using a pen name shouldn't allow you to commit tax evasion

(Since tax brackets exist)

[modest palm]

"It'll be activated in 2 months"

[static otter]

Expensive Spaghetti

[astral shuttle]

The issue is being exposed to the terminally online

[sacred junco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF4zH8bJDI8

[astral shuttle]

Heh

Guess defcon will be a nice vacation

[sacred junco]

just 3 mins uploaded, so I'm listening what mr. rossmann has to say

he's a considerate person and uses his brains

[dusk sluice]

uu this will be good listening

[sacred junco]

hes reiterating what thor has issues with, which is already better than people saying "you're wrong"

[astral shuttle]

Still, this won't quiet the masses

Honestly, let the lawyers figure it out

This is just some weird wrestling match atm

[dusk sluice]

people love fighting and picking sides. Makes life more exiting.

[sacred junco]

yea, louis just addressing thor's claim in a civil manner. He's still support the initiative, but he uses his brain to response.

[tardy crescent]

So I go to open Twitter... The first thing I see someone decided to cosplay as that evil man from Fullmetal alchemist brotherhood.. and he also had his daughter cosplay as.. well you know... That man should win first place and last place.. pure genius

[dusk sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/fullmetal-alchemist-gif-23104096

[outer gust]

Really respect Louis