streamchat

[mental siren]

DLC stuff

[warm wraith]

I just realised that Thor is making a unique RPG with character names that are jokes/anagrams. He is the second coming of Toby Fox

[mental siren]

I never even thought about the Heartbound/Earthbound thing

It's literally one small change too

[warm wraith]

I noticed that they both ended in "bound," but that was it

didn't realise it was a proper anagram

[mental siren]

All I can think about is the door is jammed thing

[fossil sapphire]

weird take time i see. Love me some vampire survivors.

[buoyant arrow]

Hearing all those puns he added into the game, it becomes so much clearer how impossible a german localization is.

I'm german. Those puns do not work in german

[earnest mirage]

guacamole -> guacamaulwurf

[woven beacon]

so for DLC topic there is no game worse then train sim XD

[buoyant arrow]

All of the "Work Sim" games have insane DLC amounts

[earnest mirage]

thor mentioned old times in wow. screen looks messy because i need to reinstall my OS on that day and don't have time to properly set up x-perl before raid starts and also recount minimise during fight. normaly i have much more vision.

[loud birch]

Yeah, having both the raid groups and your party group like that takes up a big chunk , also good old down ranking! Button bloat haha, nvm saw that you were elemental

[earnest mirage]

yeah, don't have time to properly set everything up. I also have 450d of Playtime from launch till end of bc, that's over 7h everyday.

[loud birch]

Yeah, I just don't bother setting up everything if I have to move or somehting. I just either copy my UI or set up weak auras quickly these days and fix the rest after

[earnest mirage]

yup, elemental shaman. Server top on horde side and also one in the top 10 of europe (wich i don't know until the leaders told me :D)

[loud birch]

Nice, I was too young to understand the game back then. Now I just play classic with my guild because I enjoy the raids etc

[lunar reef]

Thor mentioned factorio on stream, and it made me think of this that some people here might think is pretty rad. There is a system called archipelago. It essentially combines any number of randomizers into a giant multiworld. On the AP server they will do async multiworlds with 100s of games that take over a month to complete. There are a ton of different games supported so you can play with friends with different games

https://archipelago.gg/

[dark jay]

Similar to this.. it's still a mess, but you're really only paying attention at the bottom half of everything

Only occasionally looking at the left for health or right to burst

Not as bad as WoW tho..

[earnest mirage]

it was easier back then. blizz react to players using boss mods and make it more challenging / give you less room for errors.

[loud birch]

Oh yeah, I know. Also the amount of knowledge was less compared to today. I played all of classic except TBC (played FF14 during that time). And you notice where the game starts to get slightly more complicated in Ulduar and forward, still not hard but slightly more mechanically harder. I started raiding in Firelands basically back in the day

Also Weak auras

Not as bad as on retail but still haha

[weary forum]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/

rip

[mental siren]

did the twitch stream time change from 8 hours to 7 hours?

i swear it was just at 8

[weary forum]

was it maybe the wait time?

[fossil sapphire]

stream uptime is 7 hours 10 minutes

[unreal coral]

Is there a link to the burrito inflation index?

[tardy crescent]

Unfortunately not

We should have some sort of celebration when we get up to 500,000 banned people.

[ivory creek]

https://fandomwire.com/steam-model-on-consoles-baldurs-gate-3-dev/

[signal cairn]

HYPETRAIN!!!!

[timber vortex]

golden kappa hypetrain

[uncut plover]

I know thor say it hasnt changed but i cant hear him with some tracks

[signal cairn]

https://tenor.com/view/train-steam-gif-23821904

[tardy crescent]

Why Golden kappa train?

[timber vortex]

i dunno

[uncut plover]

Dont know how to tell him with out thinking im one guying him

[unique lance]

BURN IT DOWN

[signal cairn]

Level 21!

[tardy crescent]

Hmm I'm always down for arson

[finite glen]

How does Golden Kappa Train happen?

[unique lance]

well now's a good time to be into it, as the chat is burning

[finite glen]

I rarely see it

[timber vortex]

i think it's a random chance of a hypetrain being golden kappa

[polar bridge]

HOLY I just got a bath what happened?

[signal cairn]

https://tenor.com/view/train-patrick-star-spongebob-western-passenger-train-gif-6949996274182572262

[late bane]

what is a Golden Kappa ?

[polar bridge]

LVL 22

[tardy crescent]

Random Golden kappa hype train 🚂🚂🚂

[strange owl]

I believe he has the hype train setting set very low as well so it has a high chance

[zealous frost]

The open sauce guys have a wild podcast

They were talking about the idea of having a rifled urethra with Kyle Hill

[timber vortex]

is that the Safety Third podcast?

[zealous frost]

Yeah

[polar bridge]

I also just realize with a 15000 average viewer he has almost 22000 subs. This community is wild

[late bane]

idk, what a golden kappa hype train even does

[zealous frost]

Their episodes leave me gasping because I'm laughing so much

[unique lance]

gives a golden kappa?

[viscid yoke]

chat is losing it

amazing

[tardy crescent]

No wild was when we as a community almost completely broke twitch. We started to slow down the actual website and crash parts of it. We got up to 106. The goal was 100... The CEO of twitch later told Thor that we caused a manual DDS on the website

[visual musk]

Best community

[unique lance]

we're gonna break twitch today

[frank geyser]

Everyone who are a part of the Golden Kappa train with at least 100 bits or one gifted sub gets a Golden Kappa for 24 hours after the train have ended

[unique lance]

I want that to be true

[unreal coral]

We did break it lol

[tribal goblet]

break all the things lol

[zealous frost]

What's a golden kappa?

[late bane]

what is the golden kappa used for?

[floral bobcat]

the kappa emote in gold

[polar bridge]

It's called a hype train, meaning that people subs/gift/cheer/super chat many times in a short while. Golden hype train mean the channel get 50% of the amount instead of 30% like normal. People get a special emote for 1 day

[tribal goblet]

golden kappa emote you unlock for 24 hours IF you participate in the train

[unreal coral]

We got a custom emote for breaking twitch lol

[signal cairn]

https://tenor.com/view/fullsteamahead-theadventurecontinues-gif-20398852

[woven beacon]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/348405350912753665/1226687307898421298/kappainfinite.gif

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/348405350912753665/1225791934971514901/3_1.gif

[tardy crescent]

Those of you who don't know we are goblins and we only have two moves and seven brain cells. Our two moves are hugs of death and necromancy.

[zealous frost]

What's a kappa though? 😂

[stray axle]

Discord server is going to spam now

[late bane]

emote

[finite glen]

Time to bring back the long lemon man

[coarse sapphire]

Ah, there it goes

[mental siren]

there it is

[frank geyser]

Kompare to the normal:

[unreal coral]

And there's the level 25 notif

[late bane]

to everyone saying ... it gives a "golden kappa"... that gives us no information. Thank you everyone else that said, it's an emote <- This is helpful Ty

[polar bridge]

it's an twitch emote.

[woven beacon]

[polar bridge]

Twitch chat gone full wild goblins mode. No turning back now.

[opaque dust]

It's apparently like a super rare emote that pops up when a hype train happens. Like the chances of getting it are SUPER slim

[woven beacon]

So. next year we will get it to level 110

[tribal goblet]

chaos always wins

[rare galleon]

So Thor got super lucky

[opaque dust]

Exactly

[polar bridge]

twice within a month is SSR

[opaque dust]

and if you donate to the hype train you gain access to the emote which is like bragging rights

[finite glen]

imagine a 777 hype train

[polar bridge]

imagine next year we reach the 77777 sub goal

[rare galleon]

oh dang

[sleek seal]

https://tenor.com/view/tiny-text-cant-see-ken-jeong-gif-5957945

[tardy crescent]

I think we could get to 110 or 115 but let's not forget if we go over a hundred like last time we're going to start crashing stuff. The funny thing was is twitch said they were prepared for anything... They were wrong and now they say yes we're prepared for a level 106 train... Ok cool. Screw 110 let's go to 177

[unique lance]

crash everything

[unique lance]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-hello-elmo-rise-elmo-hell-gif-9112913

EVERYTHING MUST GO

EVERYTHING WILL GO

FIRE CONSUMES ALL

amen

[polar bridge]

Thor really passed down the QA abilities to the horde

https://tenor.com/view/henya-genius-vshojo-fire-elmo-gif-17391823026023617560

[floral bobcat]

we just like to break stuff

[woven beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/elmos-elmo-in-hell-gif-26935327

[dry osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-burn-it-beavis-fire-beavis-and-butt-head-lets-destroy-it-gif-8079047401231626912

[strange owl]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-cheese-gif-27487514

[dry osprey]

Will the hype train survive?

[tribal goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/thesadtimes-the-sad-times-sad-times-sadtimes-sheep-gif-16087264721802258432

[woven beacon]

yay

he is learning

[signal cairn]

https://tenor.com/view/banana-potassium-gif-4931204

[spark elk]

its almost over

[dry osprey]

With that business he will learn everything even sock tax

69% nice

[spark elk]

gg o7

[uncut plover]

I can hear again!

[dry osprey]

Welp the bitgoal will never go under 800%

[lavish hound]

I subbed during the hype train but I didnt get the golden kappa 😭

[unique lance]

already got it. why does twitch love me and not others

[unreal coral]

Don't feel too bad, it's only for 24 hours anyways, I didn't get it either

[formal nymph]

took me 3 weeks to get didibreakit 🤷

[strange owl]

Did he mention if he will be going back to Animal Well again at some point?
I guess there's not much left to do but still, love the game and the process.

[unreal coral]

It took me 4 hours to get infinitekappa, and two days to get didibreakit

[lunar reef]

not today, he is scheduled to do something on another stream today

[strange owl]

Yeah, I heard not today but seeing as there's so little left it might not be a thing for stream either way.

[floral bobcat]

he said he ll get back to it, just not today

[strange owl]

Cool, will keep a look out

[green merlin]

TANK

[sacred junco]

so uuhh this is what the tinfoil hat stems from

just that

[mental siren]

is the 128 on the tts queue like how many messages Thor answered so far?

[ivory creek]

Yeah

[mental siren]

oh cool

[lament sun]

hey peeps, can i have some help with this #general_chat message

[fallow maple]

for the meme y'all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCwJfETgiVo

[ivory creek]

S** load of psychic damage
Good way of describing this community

[tardy crescent]

What's the name of the person Thor will be with today?

[foggy plover]

Dr. K I think

[sacred junco]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alok_Kanojia

[ivory creek]

K is here

[arctic frigate]

I hit the wrong button and didn’t raid with the group. What is the Twitch channel for the interview?

[wild wren]

https://www.twitch.tv/healthygamer_gg?referrer=raid

[lime tusk]

let's gooo

[arctic frigate]

Thanks!

[last skiff]

Where did thor raid to??? I ended up with admiral baru

[lime tusk]

https://www.twitch.tv/healthygamer_gg?referrer=raid

[last skiff]

Tyty

[wild wren]

this guy is worth a follow at least. Makes very good content

Also Dr K vs Thor round 1 was a very good conversation - worth a watch 🙂

[lime tusk]

yeah, i watch dr k's videos on youtube for time to time

[fiery bloom]

https://apnews.com/article/nasa-webb-telescope-rocky-planet-atmosphere-469af5c5c446c5f3c3bc1d7ca8db2f9a

Super Earth awaits for your assistance.

[warm berry]

which channel did thor raid to?

[wild wren]

https://www.twitch.tv/healthygamer_gg?referrer=raid

[buoyant arrow]

Also live on YouTube, to whom it may concern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHxijcnuHaE

[storm lintel]

I enjoy grinding in games 🤷. A large part of any RPG experience for me is grinding for levels

[fossil sapphire]

if the grind is fun, then sure.

[storm lintel]

He was just so blanket about it, "It's never fun". I'm literally booting up a 25 year old game just to grind some more levels for an hour or so

[ivory creek]

He described that the reward is what makes it fun.
I enjoy grinding when it's for a certain thing
I grind in Wizard101 just to get certain drops and it's lots of fun

[fossil sapphire]

i'm not on stream, was this Thor's take?

[storm lintel]

Nah, Dr. K

[fossil sapphire]

oh

[storm lintel]

But I've heard Thor talk before about "Dailies" quests and stuff, he's not fond of them, but that's a specific form of grinding

[ivory creek]

Also grinding with nothing in the background isn't fun
Grinding with thor in the background... peak

I've optimized this boss... time to grind

[buoyant arrow]

I think "grinding" means different things. What some people call grinding, others would call "just playing the game".

[storm lintel]

I'm just probably in the minority. I used to play a lot of mobile games where I didn't even participate in the main game anymore, I just did the dailies

[buoyant arrow]

But generally, "grinding" has a negative connotation.

[ivory creek]

I think he was refering to the repetitive stuff people make bots for

[fossil sapphire]

all those hours back in ps2 ff12. grinding levels.. just running in circles and letting the autobattle/gambit system work

game so good they put in x4 time for the remake :D

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah, like the way he used "grinding" was enduring something bad for a reward, to make a point.

[storm lintel]

I used to love optimizing my planetary resource routes for D1, I fully enjoyed that part that so many people hated

[ivory creek]

Optimizing the route turns the game into another game which can be fun

[buoyant arrow]

All of the FF PC ports have speed up options and autobattle for grinding

[fossil sapphire]

i never played d1 myself, but i saw people do that :D

[fossil sapphire]

indeeeeeed.

sure, many of those games are also products of their time.

[buoyant arrow]

They realized what the weakest part of their game was and put a huge bandaid on it

[storm lintel]

I think I like how BoxOfDoom said it, I just view "grinding" as part of the game, and that's fun for me

[unique lance]

the thing you gotta realize when you're playing an ff game on pc, is watch what button you hit. you might accidently enable cheats permanently. dumb.

[strange owl]

Grinding in Diablo was the game. All facets of it.

[ivory creek]

Hence botting problems...

[strange owl]

Grinding without an attainable goal is the real issue.

[buoyant arrow]

But yeah, there are parts of games people will enjoy to no end, that others would call mindless grinding. Hell, my favourite thing I did in Valheim was building a road between two bases. Took me like 10 hours. But it was great! Sure there's boss fights and adventure and all that jazz, but I had the most fun in Valheim doing civil engineering. And most people have that personal niche.

[strange owl]

Botting was just a result of envy and laziness.

There was no real point to any of it as there is no actual use for the items besides getting more items.

[sterile sinew]

if you look at DRG, the grind and the gameplay are the same thing. So there's a threshold of good gameplay in which the grind fades into the background behind the fun

[ivory creek]

The inherent randomness makes Deep Rock Galactic that much more appealing. You don't do the EXACT same thing over and over

[sterile sinew]

very much so

[ivory creek]

Sometimes you just get bug heck.... and that makes a funny story

[sterile sinew]

but you still may just be grinding for more Enor pearl, but you're still just playing the game.

[buoyant arrow]

Helps that the DRG community is basically pure gold.

You need Enor pearls? Make a lobby and say "Hey, I need more Enor pearls" and the entire team will make sure you get those pearls.

[ivory creek]

PvE mentallity is super fun.

[buoyant arrow]

I take a PvE experience over PvP any day, regardless of genre

[sterile sinew]

same

[ivory creek]

Creating unity within players is very good

[sterile sinew]

I'm terribad at pvp

[ivory creek]

(And may have backfired at a certain publisher)

[flint quartz]

i feel like thats kind of why helldiver 2 went so big as lot of people prefer PvE but nobody is making any

[sterile sinew]

RIGHT

I was just waiting for them to ditch gameguard and I was in... then drama happened

[buoyant arrow]

A high quality coop shooter that's widely accesible due to a simple premise?

Hell yeah

[ivory creek]

But... but... Tourneys make good press

[buoyant arrow]

Dr. K makes a great point though. Good comms make games more fun

[ivory creek]

https://tenor.com/view/leeroy-jenkins-boobajones-gif-3560535

[buoyant arrow]

Classic

[strange owl]

It's fascinating how many people both now and then think it's real.

[ivory creek]

If it was being recorded in some way, immediately sus
Also the calcs comment sounded weird

[strange owl]

It's a recreation of something that happened, and ofc embellished a bit.

"Moar dots" on the other hand was live.

50 dkp minus!

[buoyant arrow]

I was convinced that's what WoW raiding is like.

[strange owl]

If you haven't seen it, look up that Many Whelps handle it video, cause THAT is what raiding was like. lol

[ivory creek]

Satire is based on reality.

[fossil sapphire]

....................., that's MORE DOTS

[flint quartz]

i was too poor to do WoW as a kid

[buoyant arrow]

I was to salty about feeling like Warcraft 3 was gonna be abandoned.

[strange owl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlLl6bBq584

Not the original version, but still

watch your volume

[ivory creek]

My volume is always low

Current volume: 48

Which is high for me

[strange owl]

It will peak

[lime tusk]

man, i am gonna rewatch this later

i mean, i am gonna keep watching

but i am gonna rewatch it

[strange owl]

There used to be a longer version as well which carried on longer, but it's been lost to time

[buoyant arrow]

Vods on both youtube and twitch

[lime tusk]

yeah, i am gonna definitly rewatch this stream later

[strange owl]

Same, many good things that I will forget before I get to use them.

[buoyant arrow]

Always a good idea with Dr. K. He always carefully lays out a lot of things, but can jump from thing to thing pretty quick. Sometimes hard to process.

[ivory creek]

I love it when people analyze video games as beyond something just fun.
MarcoMeatball is all about music in video games. The emotional response and how classical musicians perceive it.

[buoyant arrow]

Oh I like MarcoMeatball. I'm really glad his channel is succeeding.

[ivory creek]

I love the raw footage versions of his convos with music people. They get deep. 30 min discussions he can't fit in the algorithm friendly version

[buoyant arrow]

Yeah. He's impressively spot on with his analysis even with songs where he has no context to its origin. Great stuff.

[strange owl]

Stephen Fry did a great series on this subject.
On how we used to live in small societies, where we had like 10 people to pick from, so our we made due. The "ugly" girl in town was suddenly a 10. But today we pick from EVERYONE. Same thing with everything else.

[ivory creek]

The more options the more tendency to want something perfect

[strange owl]

And your perception of the thing changes

cause you compare it to all others

We used to play bad games, cause it's what we had.

Now we compare them to all other games.

[buoyant arrow]

I feel like we're too "aware" for our own good sometimes

[elfin vapor]

By curtesy of my university here is the paper Dr. K just mentioned

[ivory creek]

On the list topic. I make a super list of all the hw I need done in a WEEK
Then divide it by the number of days -1 (yes, there's a secret to that)
Do that much each day.
If you under or over estimated, guess what you gave yourself an extra day

[buoyant arrow]

The comprehension of our entire society, planet wide, is just too much to be aware of at all times, but the internet rarely shuts up. So it's very important to disconnect and ground oneself in your local sphere of existence.

[lime tusk]

thor be like

if (is_full(emotional_ram)) decompress();

[marsh forge]

you're missing a ) 😛

[lime tusk]

no

[ivory creek]

no

[marsh forge]

oh, sorry

[lime tusk]

you are a missing )

[marsh forge]

yeah, that may be

[lime tusk]

you are 5 missing )

in a trench coat

[marsh forge]

i reject this accusation

just one

[lime tusk]

ok, i take it

[unique lance]

I want this to become a thing

thor kept saying it as a joke to chat and now I do that everywhere lol confuses everyone

[zealous frost]

Thor "new game+" Hall

[uncut plover]

Wow... listening to these two... it's kinda eye opening

[zealous frost]

First it was "Thor accidentally himself into a Monk"

Now NG+

[unique lance]

this is therapy 101. a conversation between two people that helps you understand your brain.

[uncut plover]

My brain is a mess lolol

[zealous frost]

It does help to listen as a third part and retrospect on your own life in contrast

[unique lance]

see he keeps needling into thor the exact reasons he does things

[strange owl]

I mostly keep thinking about the things that are not being said.

I notice that both sides are holding back on opinions and reactions

[unique lance]

sometimes sharing every little opinion you have isn't useful, and they both understand that

[strange owl]

Yeah, not saying it's a bad thing. Just makes me think about them. Sort of like that missing missing problem thing

[ivory creek]

Dr. K is just fascinated by Thor
He's a good specimen

[lime tusk]

he was always a mutant

[marsh forge]

totally. in some parts their talk sounds like Dr. K is planning to write a research paper on thor

[lime tusk]

he should

[timid solstice]

thor will soon become research ferret for dr. K

[unique lance]

we just learned that's bad

[strange owl]

Yeah, but for instance, the things Thor is describing screams coping mechanisms and trauma response for me.
And if it was me I would be worried about things "flipping" over at some point.
Again, not saying any of these things are true or related, but it's what sparks in my mind while listening.

[timid solstice]

oh, yeah...

[ivory creek]

Thor is such a fascinating person. There's a reason he blew up on youtube

[lament sun]

yea make sense keeping in mind's Thor's past

makes complete sense

[lime tusk]

he heard the calling

[ivory creek]

Why is Thor, Thor needs to be a research paper

[timid solstice]

he is the chosen one

[dim tree]

I’m probably gonna watch the vod for this since I only started watching 1h 47min in

[lime tusk]

indeed, he is neo

ok, lunch time

[dim tree]

But Thor and Dr. K always a good pair

[timid solstice]

it is interesting to see two smart people having a conversation about life

[ivory creek]

Two incredibly competent people discussing topics from two different angles

"The Third Element" coming soon....

[unique lance]

Dr K: "You're weird" Thor:

[mellow crest]

Something just clicked for me about "Free and open information" and hacking and "teaching people how to solve these puzzles", this is why I don't like the secrecy around Project Euler? Like I love puzzles (and I'm terrible at not looking up spoilers which adds into the frustration), but the fact that you can't hardly talk about any of the problems to get help eats at me. Teach me how to solve the cool math/programming puzzles for goodness' sake!

[ivory creek]

Thor is Iroh

[mellow crest]

Uncle T-roh

[frigid harbor]

I just arrived here now because PirateSoftware is unreasonably interesting in this conversation

[ivory creek]

He's just built differently than other people

[mellow crest]

Welccome Twofigo!

[unique lance]

yeah really we met him after his story arc completed, he's focused on helping us complete our arcs while doing his own thing

[timid solstice]

same

[ivory creek]

Iroh and Thor
One in the same

[unique lance]

thor really is our iroh

[ivory creek]

Met at the end of their arcs

[unique lance]

that's actually hitting me weirdly hard

[wary widget]

I wish I had a calling in my life. So far I haven’t had anything that has pushed me in a direction of “this is correct. This is what I need to do”

[sterile sinew]

yup

[chilly ledge]

Well who's to say you won't? Life is random like that

[ivory creek]

Thor has reached the end of his character arc.
Just takes time, alot of time

[mellow crest]

Upon further reflection, I'm probably approaching it wrong, as something I have to complete as opposed to something where I can try a bunch of puzzles and fail and try again or try something else

[wary widget]

That’s true, it’s just that when i’m halfish way through my life (probably), I get discouraged about if I will ever find it

[ivory creek]

No lying = life changes

Woah

[chilly ledge]

I feel that, really, I personally try to look at it in this way we are alive, we have the chance that something close to that happens. Insert Forest Gump here

Dude I can't lie, im so bad at it

[lime tusk]

when the castle of cards fall apart, there is no escape

[lime tusk]

me frfr

[chilly ledge]

Like it's literally amazing how bad I am at it

[strange owl]

I'm sadly very very good at lying. Fortunately I don't do it often.

[lime tusk]

you are lying

[strange owl]

Who knows.

[minor turtle]

Okay but as someone who is autistic social interactions with most people requires lying at least in some capacity

[ivory creek]

Lying is by far the thing I'm the worst at

[buoyant arrow]

I had to train myself out of reflexively lying. Being more truthful has me commit to the things I do a lot more.

[lime tusk]

noooo stream crashed

[strange owl]

Personally I find white lies far worse than actual lies tbh.
They're the ones that get you in trouble.

[marsh forge]

stream dead or is my internet bad again?

[lime tusk]

ded

[strange owl]

ded

[marsh forge]

thx

[buoyant arrow]

Stream went f

[mellow sandal]

f

[flint quartz]

f

[next umbra]

F

[wary widget]

Rip

[ivory creek]

Twitch tried to nerf Thor's wisdom

[chilly ledge]

I believe it has to do with putting up a Persona, I remember Dr K talking about it once when it comes to how to develop your social skills

[sweet steppe]

The moment the stream borked

[fallow fable]

oh no

[uneven pollen]

https://tenor.com/view/internet-lent-gif-18182835

[ivory creek]

Twitch, you don't want to go against us

You already lost one time

[buoyant arrow]

Nah, seems Dr.K lost internet

Youtube is down too

[lament sun]

what

did he just die

what happened

[small yacht]

the twitch chat in there, is uuhh, very much a "we must fix everyone"

[flint quartz]

dead

[ionic bronze]

why?

[zealous frost]

https://tenor.com/view/scared-spongebob-patrick-panic-worried-gif-17244088

[lament sun]

did they end the stream of the outage was not intended

[sweet steppe]

As a 'tism person, I just can't lie like that. My lies consist of "I'm fine"....

[marsh forge]

societal expectations.

[strange owl]

not intended

[sweet steppe]

Thats masking, my dude

[flint quartz]

it crash

[sweet steppe]

Costs you extra spoons

[void portal]

We breached the matrix

[minor turtle]

Something like that autistic and ADHD (which I also have) people call it masking and it is absolutely draining to have to do day in and day out just to function in society

[chilly ledge]

The stream has ascended with all this Wisdom

[blissful scaffold]

Dang, it died

[buoyant arrow]

Critical amoutns of wisdom. Shutting down stream

[strange owl]

it's back

in theory

[void portal]

Forbidden knowledge

[sweet steppe]

Refresh!

[chilly ledge]

I believe you man, specially in the society that we love in today

[clever thunder]

Got too close to "the answer"

[ivory creek]

Possesed stream

[chilly ledge]

This stream was definitely "Neti Neti"

[blissful scaffold]

NetiLikeThis

[ivory creek]

The demons wanted to nerf their combined power

[outer maple]

neti neti

[frigid harbor]

neti neti

[untold shale]

we were getting too much information XD

[lime tusk]

is back!!!

[ivory creek]

The third element was too hard on Twitch

[floral hazel]

Amen

[lament sun]

oh they are back

[untold shale]

jup all good now

[lament sun]

i cast combustion

https://tenor.com/bM5j3.gif

[last skiff]

I feel blue balled, chat.

[next umbra]

Thor has been put in the corner for his knowledge

lol

[ivory creek]

So when is the psychological analysis book "The Third Element" coming out

Good stuff

"Transcendant gamer mode"

[untold shale]

again? too much info....

[next umbra]

the forbidin knowledge!!!

[ivory creek]

The universe is rebelling

[next umbra]

YT CANT ALOW THIS!!!

[void portal]

NOOO

[next umbra]

lol

[void portal]

Twitch neither

[chilly ledge]

Ok we are taking too much insight

[next umbra]

the gremlins have ruind it again

[pine jacinth]

Too much knowledge, goblins aren’t allowed to be smart 🥲

[blissful scaffold]

They're going way deeper than they did in their first convo and the universe refuses to let their powers combine

[next umbra]

lol

[void portal]

I feel like I already knew this tho... deep inside of myself

[chilly ledge]

We about to witness the amygdala now

[blissful scaffold]

NetiLikeThis

[rose hare]

Sorry I turned the stream on and it broke, I'll leave now

[next umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/pirate-sabastian-legacies-gif-21836937

[void portal]

gdamit!

[untold shale]

you deserve the knowledge too

[snow geyser]

sooo the not this not this doesn't wanna divulge it's secrets

[pine jacinth]

Nah man u did the damage >:(

[lime tusk]

no way, literally the stream is too powerful

[snow geyser]

[lime tusk]

we need a part 3 now

[plush rain]

It's _F_orbidden knowledge

[next umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/over-and-over-again-saturday-night-live-snl-weekend-update-again-and-again-repeatedly-gif-19746797

[plush rain]

I think Thor will take a noita approach to angry gods

[last skiff]

@plush rain end up killing himself before ever confronting the god?

[buoyant arrow]

They're gonna reshedule the stream to some other time.

[plush rain]

please no

[lament sun]

its jover

[small yacht]

glad to hear it, it was fun seeing thor outside of his stream

[untold shale]

the stream was toooo powerfull??

[lament sun]

ù

[modest apex]

Oh no

[buoyant arrow]

Imo, better than trying for 4 more times for things to run for 10 mins before crashing again.

[plush rain]

Why not let Thor stream and get Dr. K on mobile internet?

[lime tusk]

sadge

[ivory creek]

Reality said no

[lament sun]

nah electricity its just avoiding Dr. K office, it seems

[pine jacinth]

Watch this happen again on the rescheduled stream

[lament sun]

since Thor its there, theres Voltage problems

[midnight nimbus]

Just as it was about to get REAL interesting

Damn you universe

[humble aspen]

AWWWWW

GG

[ivory creek]

Dr k said it has happened several times

[humble aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/404soob-pepe-pp-gif-21552696

[chilly dome]

What a great time very enlightening

[void portal]

noooo

[humble aspen]

Two giga nerds met each other and have angered the gods

[chilly ledge]

XD

F in the chat Bois and gals

[fleet lodge]

they were speaking the forbidden knowledge and the universe said "don't leak it"

[lament sun]

more like

electrons

stopped doing electrons things

[coral lynx]

gosh darn, it was really interesting

[untold shale]

ohhh it is confirmed, it is Thors fault...

[wind inlet]

Thor has manifested a thunderstorm

[chilly ledge]

This happened

[viscid crane]

I have never been blue balled harder in my life 😆

[subtle berry]

I’d love an Episode 3. They were getting super deep and I found it fascinating

[modest apex]

It was such a good convo

[wind inlet]

same

[dusky goblet]

Private convo into Thor informing us next stream ja?

[tranquil hound]

The universe just doesnt want that info to spread 😆

[untold shale]

i love listening to them, i always learn new stuff

[subtle berry]

The hilarious part is, that level of depth is like a Tuesday for the monks and whatnot that Dr. K hangs out with

[wind inlet]

I don't like the universe blue-balling me out of critical information

[ivory creek]

Got too close to full enlightenment

[wind inlet]

I want to know the secrets too

[modest apex]

There were def a few "aha!" Moments for me

[midnight nimbus]

After a private convo with dr k thor comes back to stream with glowing white eyes and levitating bros been enlightened

[subtle berry]

We gotta learn to let go of our desires for more

[modest apex]

Or a Thorsday

[chilly ledge]

In the end this whole "it feels right" is just another "This is the way" and im down for it

[uneven pollen]

The secret was always to be yourself

[remote hearth]

or Thor always has glowing eyes and the his glasses is anti glare to prevent it from showing

[rugged sphinx]

Dude the universe really doesn't want us to dig any deeper here xD

[dusky goblet]

Both accurate and over-simplified XD

[subtle berry]

I like how Thor described “open source everything” as “it feels right”.

[turbid lance]

They were on some wave of probability vs wave of possibility type shit it was so interesting

[midnight nimbus]

goblin/ferret god reincarnated into human form?

[rigid jolt]

^^

[subtle berry]

They were getting into that “not-an-emotion” of “feel that, that’s True”

[lyric moon]

Agent Smith stepped in and denied us our escape of the Martrix. Where is Neo when you need him most...

[modest apex]

Well, yeah! Because here we all are talking with each other about a shared blueballed experience!

[high sleet]

it's stormy here in Texas

thanks for the updates chatMD esquire, tech support extordinaire

[high sleet]

TL;DR

[subtle berry]

I actually want to hear Dr. K talk a little more about “New Game+”. I don’t believe in it one bit, but I think he would respect that disbelief.

[high sleet]

its so interesting because like, everything we do, is inherently for an emotional feeling/response. But that feeling/response comes from a belief system we setup intellectually which allows for manipulation and deviation from integrity. However that "third thing" is like this universal guidance system that when we align our beliefs, actions and emotions with, becomes like aligning with a wave on a surfboard at just the right moment...

[ivory creek]

The third element has gone by many names in many cultures. It is a fundamental part of reality.

[high sleet]

same light, different lamp shades... same fire, different people... same programming language, different developer...

[true saffron]

So I guess Dr K isn't coming back

RIP stream

[wind inlet]

weird question but

do y'all believe in free will?

[ivory creek]

The secrets of the universe were too much for his electricity

[wind inlet]

Personally I think it might not exist..

[high sleet]

yeah its super stormy here in texas which is a bit unusual and i think thats where dr K is? the business is based in TX. there was an update about his power earlier

[subtle berry]

Red Means Recording just did an OP-1 video and a song about free will. Hang on…

[true saffron]

It can exist, it's just at clash with other things like "society". And humans are social creatures

[high sleet]

I mean, the gods do get fussy when you be giving away the secrets of reality

[wind inlet]

That's not what I really mean

[high sleet]

some of them

[wind inlet]

Like

if you ever just pay attention to your thoughts

you would notice that thoughts just... pop up

and you have basically no control over what thoughts pop up

[high sleet]

true

[wind inlet]

you can do certain things to cultivate certain kinds of thoughts, yes

[true saffron]

Then you need to define what you mean at the time you ask it

[wind inlet]

but those things, too, are a result of your thoughts

[lament sun]

[high sleet]

thoughts = mana = always regenerating

[wind inlet]

I disagree

there are way too many things that can be defined

like, we can go into a deep rabbithole of definitions

but at that point we'd have to write an essay

I think it makes more sense to ask a question, and refine it later if the person doesn't understand

it just seems way more efficient to do that

but maybe I'm wrong

[true saffron]

As so scrum meetings to define a question

[wind inlet]

Not really

[high sleet]

depends on where the person you are talking to is at and the nature of the container you are in as well as the agreement over the exchange of information and concepts

[wind inlet]

I mean, in this case, you asked a question, I answered it

[wind inlet]

That is fair, yeah

Anyway

to get back to what I wanted to talk about, if that's fine with y'all

[wind inlet]

so I wonder how much of your life you actually control

[true saffron]

Just know that not everyone has the same level of involvement with wanting to answer the question your posing if your going to keep moving the goal posts on them

Like I'm not going to sit here and think out a deep answer to just be told "no not that, this"

[wind inlet]

Sure, nothing wrong with that

[high sleet]

excellent question! meditating (thinking) on it now and will respond...

[wind inlet]

I can see why it can be annoying

Personally I wouldn't mind a clarification being added to a question after I thought about it

It's not like the conclusion of the previous question is going to fade away

so that was the perspective I was dealing with

but if I annoyed you in some way, I apologize

[true saffron]

No I'm not annoyed at all, I'm just blunt with things

[wind inlet]

I still don't think your suggestion of defining a question thoroughly is quite viable

Different people have very different ideas for things, you can never know what definitions they need and what they don't

[true saffron]

It doesn't need to be 100% thought out, but it should have a structure to it that your looking to talk about

[wind inlet]

and defining everything isn't really a plausible thing either

[true saffron]

Have you ever seen the website Don't ask to ask, just ask

[wind inlet]

I have not

Like, in the context of this question, the fact that someone could have a different interpretation did not even occur to me

[true saffron]

https://dontasktoask.com/

[wind inlet]

That's quite interesting

[true saffron]

It's not 100% what you were doing, but it's along the same lines.

It could be seen as bad form becuase your not respecting the other persons time

[wind inlet]

It may appear that way, yes

but that was not my intention

[rigid jolt]

@scenic lake Thank you for sharing that meditation

[wind inlet]

The thought that someone could have a different interpretation of my question did not even occur to me

It's a problem of unknown unknowns

[high sleet]

there is no doubt inevitably a portion we don't control. I.e. - what is, its raining today, someone farted, etc. so in regards to that, we are kind of only ever 50% in control of what is happening in life. However, we are always 100% in control of our behavior, our thoughts and feelings. even if thoughts arise that are not our own or we don't prefer, our response in how we think about those thoughts is our responsibility, or ability to respond. in that regard, we are able to create belief systems and assign meaning to things in a way that creates feelings that ultimately determine how we feel. so if we choose to make things motivational and make us feel good, like learning from our mistakes or always taking 100% responsibility for how we choose to relate to everything and conduct ourselves, and our results align with the reality of what is in a way that is meaningful or beneficial, then in a way we can become more in "control" of what is happening in reality or what is by relating to it more skillfully...

[umbral jewel]

Did Dr. K. stream cut off?

[wind inlet]

Like, if I knew someone might have an X interpretation of the question, I would certainly clarify that I didn't mean X, but if I don't know what other interpretations there might be, not much I can do except hope that the answerer asks clarifying questions if they need it

[high sleet]

yep power issues updates above in this channel

[wind inlet]

^

[umbral jewel]

OK, thank you

[wind inlet]

However, we are always 100% in control of our behavior, our thoughts and feelings. even if thoughts arise that are not our own or we don't prefer, our response in how we think about those thoughts is our responsibility, or ability to respond
I'm not sure if I agree with this, tbh

even if thoughts arise that are not our own or we don't prefer, our response in how we think about those thoughts is our responsibility, or ability to respond
This talks about responsibility, not control

Yes, you are responsible for the things you do, even if you don't necessarily have full control over them

that does not say anything about will, though

However, we are always 100% in control of our behavior, our thoughts and feelings
I'm also not sure if this is true. The "100%" claim is provably true, it's possible to instigate certain kinds of thoughts

[ivory creek]

The universe said no to deep human lore

[wind inlet]

"Don't think about a red elephant"

This is why advertising exists, and why it works

I believe even Dr. K talked about this in one of his videos

[subtle berry]

We cannot control whether or not it rains. We can almost perfectly control whether or not we bring our umbrella.

[sonic summit]

Not sure I agree we are 100% in control of our behavior. People who have experienced trauma likely do not have control over how they react to situations

[subtle berry]

Sometimes we forget our umbrella. But the more we try to remember to bring it, the more we will actually ring it

[wind inlet]

Yes but think of it like this.

It rains -> You bring your umbrella

If you always bring your umbrella when it rains, and you cannot control when it rains

Do you control when you bring your umbrella?

[viscid crane]

yes, at any point you can choose not to

[subtle berry]

I can choose not to bring my umbrella when it is raining. But I almost never want to experience the consequences of that choice.

[viscid crane]

that one's easy imo, you're asking the deeper question of "is it really ME that chose that" I believe

[wind inlet]

Yes

I think "could" is irrelevant when it comes to the question of free will

Anything "could" happen, but you "made a choice"

But was it really "you" that made a choice

[viscid crane]

which I think you have to define a whooooole lot of concepts to even grapple with that question

[wind inlet]

or was the choice simply an inevitable consequence of the situation

[wind inlet]

yeaaaaa

this goes.... way too deep

[high sleet]

absolutely. so this means its 100% possible to instigate response to instigated thoughts in a way that is under our control or is a practiced and controlled response

[wind inlet]

I had a time where I thought about this topic for like 2-3 hours

and I barely managed to scratch the surface

[high sleet]

the proof is literally in your rebuttal

[umbral jewel]

Seems like it

[wind inlet]

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean

It would be very helpful if you could clarify

if that's okay

[high sleet]

i may not be able to control that someone can bring thoughts up in me, but i am always in control of how i think and feel about the thoughts they bring up and how i respond and act accordingly

[wind inlet]

I'm talking about a deeper level of cognition than that. Yes, when someone says something mean to you, for example, you can "choose" to take a step back and not act emotionally. But did you really "choose" to do it or was it just a predisposition of your existing state for that thought to pop up

sorry I really don't know how to describe what I'm thinking

English isn't really my native language either, so... my vocabulary is not very expansive

[high sleet]

so there's really no way to say that I am not in control, because I am always the one thinking and feeling and observing/experiencing the thoughts and feelings I am creating about what it is I am experiencing

'you made me feel' is an impossiblity, because the only one who can control my systems of beliefs that create feelings is me. I am the system administrator of my own thoughts and beliefs which create the emotional feelings of my reality experience

[ivory creek]

There is an essay called As a Man Thinketh which is really good

All about using control of your thoughts to have control over your life

[wind inlet]

I understand what you're talking about, btw, but my question goes a level deeper, and I'm not sure how to frame it in a way people would understand

I really don't have the words for it

[vague belfry]

Debating(?) 👀

[wind inlet]

Nope, just discussing

I don't like debates

[high sleet]

hmmm i understand

[viscid crane]

Can I dm you famiu? I've been wrestling with the same question for a while now.

[wind inlet]

sure but I'll probably go to sleep in a bit

I sent you a friend request

go ham

[vague belfry]

'you made me feel' is an impossiblity, because the only one who can control my systems of beliefs that create feelings is me.
your neurochemistry.

[viscid crane]

thanks 😄 I've been wrestling with the same question for a while now but I'm not sure I can dive into it here without it being super long winded

[high sleet]

i dont think that part can really be answered conventionally in human language due to the limitations of the communication media as well as the capacity of the containers

doplhins and whales, maybe

[ivory creek]

Human language is so... weak.
Hence the arts actually
Music, Poetry, Art, etc. express the human experience in more ways and help us to fully comprehend.

[high sleet]

like communicating with echolocation, the waves sent out create the image we recieve. with language, its like encrypted, and data is lost in translation because definitions vary even in the same language

exactly that is why music/art is such a better communication medium

it allows for many more layers of emotional data, feelings, to be freely felt and expressed without the limitation of words

[ivory creek]

Now I'm thinking about the monologue about Van Goh in Doctor Who
Dang it

[void portal]

So we should just sing instead of speaking :D

[ivory creek]

Opera... exists
That art form is more about the musical expression of emotion that the words they actually sing

[high sleet]

this is actually why many ancient cultures and animals begin and end the days/nights with songs

life is really meant to be a musical, just a bit toned down from the movies IRL

[wind inlet]

'Yes I have free will; I have no choice but to have it.' - Christopher Hitchens

I love that quote

[high sleet]

ahhh the power of paradox

[ivory creek]

Seems incompatible but is very true.

[vague belfry]

just a little restriction in what one can do, as long as what one can do isn't only 1 thing, one can still call it free will I guess

it's well compatible

"restricted free will", or just not unlimited

[void portal]

defining free will is always going to be messy

[vague belfry]

though if one had the capacity to turn off one's own free will and become an NPC or sheeple then that'd be like a 1-way ticket

[tropic wraith]

not really, its the ability to choose

[vague belfry]

unless I guess if that behavior had access to and would run into changing that back

[ivory creek]

There are choices that inherently restrict our ability to choose

[void portal]

yeah, but the question is if choice is an illusion. Did you actually choose the action, or was it destined to happen

[vague belfry]

it doesn't matter much though

[tropic wraith]

but to that individual making the choice, is still a choice.
people can impose their will on others, its still a choice. Its not good, but its a choice.

[ivory creek]

Is destiny just perfect prediction of human choices?

[vague belfry]

like... one can tackle problems even if one doesn't know if one has free will or not.

Think for example of some cutscene in a video game; imagine you'd clearly see smth bad approaching, involving the character you knew how to control beforehand

[ivory creek]

If I can perfectly predict what you will do, am I controlling you?

[tropic wraith]

choice is what you can do.
unforseen circumstances is out of your control
choices other people make are out of your control

[vague belfry]

you could assume it's a cut-scene and you cannot do anything, or you can try anyway.

[void portal]

yes, but such precise prediction is currently impossible.

[vague belfry]

If it was all pre-determined, then trying to do smth (if one even can then anyway) cannot lose (but also not gain) anything

but if it wasn't, then one can gain smth (assuming one would know what should be done)

and so to try anyway is a dominant strategy, it can cover both cases.

[vague belfry]

no, the actual causality that drives the future behavior is doing that

(the knowledge/awareness of that doesn't make it be that way, it doesn't hinge on that)

[ivory creek]

Exactly. It hinges on you in the end. You might be predictable but that doesn't mean you don't have free will.
Advertising knows how to use that predictability, but in the end you can say no.

[vague belfry]

You might be predictable but that doesn't mean you don't have free will.
mhm

[void portal]

no, cuz that's not the same as choosing another person's future.

[vague belfry]

"I know where and how the planets and stars go, I control them (not really)"

[ivory creek]

We all can predict to a certain extent which makes us believe that there is no choice.

[vague belfry]

or differently said, I guess we associate or attribute more things to it than just awareness or being able to predict smth when we use the expression control

[ivory creek]

We're delving deep into the thought experiments that I enjoy, alot

[void portal]

I feel like i'm thinking on another level, kinda goes well with the simulation theory, that there is a possibility of knowing every outcome.

And that level of thinking/philosophy isn't really helpful or applicative to anything.

[ivory creek]

The applications are... interesting. It depends on how you see things really.
Religious people debate whether prophecy and free will are compatible. This gives insight into how it may be compatible

[vague belfry]

For example, I can predict that about within this decade, the great filter will apply to humanity if globally things continue the status quo, namely as consequence of this logic and the current space activity trend being incompatible to it,

1. Evolution of life unfolding on exoplanets (or any of the 200+ solar system ice moons) morally is a BIG DEAL.
2. Evolution can unfold in millions of very different ways.
3. The window between best and worst versions in terms of well-being or suffering to come from it surely is astronomically gigantic.
4. Any near-future microbial contamination of planets at most will lead to an abysmal version (and likely negative, for octillions - namely quintillions at any time for billions of years - of animals, since according to evolutionary biologists, wild animals mainly suffer on average).
   Conclusion: Even by current risk assessment response measures or standards applied in other cases, humanity must at the very least have discipline and hold itself back for many years from risking interplanetary and interstellar forward contamination, and so space ports must be locked down.

but it doesn't mean I have no free will to try to change that.

[jolly sky]

This is the 3rd time you've copy pasted this now

[vague belfry]

(Because the scale of suffering possible to be caused by such contamination is so astronomically huge that in all of humanity's future, we easily can be incapable of making up for that anymore which though would be what we'd need as arguments for justifying our continued existence)

(because in trolley problems, the correct decision is independent of who makes the decision, has the lever, or in what position, what track if any track or 3rd party bystander, one personally is on)

[jolly sky]

I don't know why you're trying to shoehorn this conversation in when I doubt any of us will even be alive long enough to even visit other planets

[vague belfry]

sorry, it's super important. It's not without reason...

[vague belfry]

no that's a misunderstanding

for assessing the urgency of a matter it's not about when the grim consequences start happening

[fossil sapphire]

important to you, perhaps. maybe not everyone feels the same.

[vague belfry]

it's about figuring out when the last moment would be at which they could still be prevented.

This is the most important matter of this decade and century

[void portal]

I think there's a big gap in predicting and knowing. If we do come in contact with aliens, and it kills us, I would actually prefer that over the fear of the unknown

[jolly sky]

Well I highly doubt you're going to get your answer here

[vague belfry]

their lives depend on it, too.

You see, think of the voyager probes

[fossil sapphire]

dont let us stop you preventing it.

[vague belfry]

if they already had been sent to such places we couldn't do anything about it anymore.

[vague belfry]

yeah I won't.

[ivory creek]

Perfect prediction, omniscience, etc. comes with a great burden. But the having no fear might just make it worth it

[vague belfry]

But I know of info-hazards to prevent it if needed, as last resort besides outreach that I've done for 2 years now, 100k email contacts, 30 discords and subreddits

abc weapons are a distraction actually, technically billions have nuclear power

they just don't know how, but I do.

and so either globally physical space exploration will find an end (and LOTS of money, investments can then go into so many crises on earth as bonus, too), or smth needs to prevent that because it has the highest priority because octillions weigh far more than all of humanity's future.

[jolly sky]

I feel like you've read a Sci-Fi book have taken it upon yourself that this will undoubtedly happen

[vague belfry]

And in my outreach, based on their email responses, they generally agree with my concern and argumentation:

Prof. David Pearce, Prof. Dr. Kent A. Peacock, Prof. Dr. Greg Matloff, Dr. Anthony Milligan, Prof. Joanne Irene Gabrynowicz, Prof. Armel Kerrest, Prof. Preda Mihailescu, Dr. Jonathan H. Jiang, Prof. Dr. Philip Kotler, Michael Weinold, Dr. Julian Baggini, Bill Kitchen, Dr. Margaret Race, Paul Gilster, Prof. Dr. Tyler Cowen, Prof. Dr. Christopher E. Mason, Asher Soryl, B.A. Kevin Weller, Prof. Dr. Michael Schetsche, Prof. Vishaan Chakrabarti, Prof. Paula Casal, Robert Miles, Brian Tomasik, Isaac Brown, Dr. Scott Keating, Prof. Dr. Jacob Livingston Slosser, Jaroslav Jirík, David Lillis, Prof. Dr. David Christian, Mark J. Maharaj, Prof. Dr. Bill Schneider, Prof. Dr. Michael Reiss, Prof. Dr. Jim Olds, Jack Hancock, Erika Nesvold, Prof. Dr. Betül Kaçar, Prof. David Christian, Tim Ventura, Dr. Egbert Edelbroek, William Green, Marcus Chown, Maria Koskela, Catalina Sparleanu, Richard Wegscheider, Jenny Rompas, Mario Livio, Lena Halounova, M.Sc. Mariska Bosschart, Prof. Dr. Holmes Rolston III, Prof. Dr. Mary-Jane Rubenstein, Prof. Jin Zhouying, Max Theissen, Fin Moorhouse, Prof. Terence Barker, Rizacan Ciloglu, Volker Ossenkopf-Okada, José Miguel Rodriguez Espinosa, Franco Giovannelli, Vojtech Rusin, Amaury de Kertanguy, Alexa Stathakis, Volker W. Thürey, John Penrose, Teresa Mendes, Dr. Marie Francoise A. Ada, MoonXcribe, Katie &, ABIBOO, David Brin, Eugene F. Milone, potholer54, Prof. Satish Chitneni, Prof. Dr. Roger Crisp, William McCrary, Prof. Ian Crawford, Prof. Dr. Dirk Schulze-Makuch, Janne Heilala, Angella Fernando

[jolly sky]

DUDE

Please stop this

[vague belfry]

okay fine

[void portal]

what do you mean octillions?

[vague belfry]

this isn't sci-fi though

[jolly sky]

As much as you're trying to push this onto this discord, this isn't the place for it

[vague belfry]

animals (not just microbes) for reference, existed for 1.6 billion years already on earth (at least)

For reference, here are scientific estimates on the number of existing animals on earth at any time throughout hundreds of millions of years (with the exception of humans and livestock, of course):
Humans: 8 billion
Livestock: 24 billion
Birds: 100 billion to 400 billion
Mammals: 100 billion to 1 trillion
Reptiles: 100 billion to 100 trillion
Amphibians: 100 billion to 100 trillion
Fish: 10 trillion to 1 quadrillion
Earthworms: 100 trillion to 100 quadrillion
Terrestrial Insects: 100 quadrillion to 10 quintillion

So quintillions, quint = 5, and billions = 1000°1000°1000 -> 3, 5+3 = 8 -> oct makes octillions (as rough order of magnitude, assuming animals on average living 1 to 10 years, not 100).

[fossil sapphire]

please, with the copypasta.

think of the mobile users.

[vague belfry]

sorry, I understand (I don't have it in any other form ready though)

[void portal]

so, the death of already dead octillions? I don't understand

[vague belfry]

But just so you know, in germany there is someone that intends to play god within the decade: https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~gros/genesis-project.php

Prof. Claudius Gros (from the Goethe university), with his Genesis project....

(though several other physical space exploration missions by various nations for the next decade exist with in part high contamination risks, including within diving into ice moons)

[vague belfry]

no, the existence of them and hence mainly suffering

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_animal_suffering

Wild animal suffering is the suffering experienced by non-human animals living outside of direct human control due to harms, such as disease, injury, parasitism, starvation and malnutrition, dehydration, weather conditions, natural disasters, and killings by other animals,[1][2] as well as psychological stress.[3] Some estimates indicate that these individual animals make up the vast majority of animals in existence.[4] **An extensive amount of natural suffering has been described as an unavoidable consequence of Darwinian evolution,[5] as well as the pervasiveness of reproductive strategies, which favor producing large numbers of offspring, with a low amount of parental care and of which only a small number survive to adulthood, the rest dying in painful ways, has led some to argue that suffering dominates happiness in nature.[1][6][7] **

Prof. Gary David O'Brien's scientific paper from 2021, titled "Directed Panspermia, Wild Animal Suffering, and the Ethics of World-Creation" and Oskari Sivula's scientific paper from 2022, titled "The Cosmic Significance of Directed Panspermia: Should Humanity Spread Life to Other Solar Systems?".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNtmyWp9utg
Directed Panspermia, Wild Animal Suffering, and the Ethics of World‐Creation
Abstract:
Directed panspermia is the deliberate seeding of lifeless planets with microbes, in the hopes that, over evolutionary timescales, they will give rise to a complex self-sustaining biosphere on the target planet. Due to the immense distances and timescales involved, human beings are unlikely ever to see the fruits of their labours. Such missions must therefore be justified by appeal to values independent of human wellbeing. In this paper I investigate the values that a directed panspermia mission might promote. Paying special attention to the outcome in which sentient animals evolve, I argue that we have strong reasons to believe the value of a mission would be negative. Research on wild animal suffering has shown that there is a huge amount of suffering among wild animals on Earth. I argue that there are structural features of evolution by natural selection which explain the prevalence of suffering on Earth, and make it predictable that suffering would prevail on the target planet too. Finally, using insights from procreative ethics I argue on non-consequentialist grounds that creators have duties to their sentient creations which cannot be met in directed panspermia missions.

(sorry)

[jolly sky]

Clearly you don't as you keep on doing it

[vague belfry]

I'm not doing this for myself...

(would have better things otherwise to do, many hobbies)

[jolly sky]

This isn't really the channel, or the discord to be putting this all into

[vague belfry]

If we do come in contact with aliens, and it kills us, I would actually prefer that over the fear of the unknown
on that matter, actually the dark forest hypothesis has been refuted, and dyson swarms, too.

one can read up on that on the Talk page associated to the Fermi Paradox Wikipedia page.

[jolly sky]

I don't know what you're expecting from us when you just slam down these wall of texts

[vague belfry]

I know, but believe it or not, I've been basically everywhere else already...

[fossil sapphire]

i bet

[void portal]

Personally, I don't think it matters. The channel is currently inactive, cuz there's no livestream. The conversation just goes naturally, and we're talking deep philosophy

[vague belfry]

like... who remains to be contacted about this anymore? 100k in this list

institutions and everyone from several uni directories...

[void portal]

It's not harmful misinformation, as far as I'm concerned.

[vague belfry]

thanks for your considerateness

[jolly sky]

True but it does look like absolute mad ramblings

[ivory creek]

Aran, the grass calls you
No more existential dread and just feel the earth around you

[fossil sapphire]

perhaps you two should take it to DMs then

[ivory creek]

It does

[void portal]

yes, but that's fun

[vague belfry]

am just trying to inform/educate

I swear it'll just be once

or if people are interested and ask directly

or at most for if somehow otherwise the topic or close related things would come up

[ivory creek]

https://tenor.com/view/touching-grass-touch-gif-21219969

[vague belfry]

(otherwise I have still many places to go)

yeah the "touch grass" thing.... I hear that a lot)

[void portal]

I think a problem to you execution is the lack of conversation, and just infodumping. It's hard to engage with if you're not on board.

[vague belfry]

it's not mad, not rambling either really

[ivory creek]

It might be relaxing to take a break

Feels like alot of mental energy has been exerted in this

[vague belfry]

like the argumentation is reasonable, and I understand that it comes across as rambling but...

that's because this is an urgent crisis that not only nearly 0 people worldwide know about but also like basically everyone has the 180° wrong opinion about it

(due to space enthusiasm and sci-fi culture etc.)

[vague belfry]

true

[fossil sapphire]

Do you actually believe, you are the one and only person, in the world, to have this knowledge?

What are the chances?

[vague belfry]

no I mean I try to engage in and address what others are saying on the topic

[fossil sapphire]

actually, dont mind me, i'm out :)

[vague belfry]

I know that it isn't the case anymore because of my outreach, but yes, even people like Nick Bostrom didn't know about this or may still not know and even had the opposite standpoint

[vague belfry]

extremely low, I understand

however, Brian Tomasik already expressed concerns on the topic in 2014 but then didn't do anything about it

[void portal]

And we were discussing the philosophy of self, free will and the likes, which there are no answers. There's only experience.
This is a different topic, and you have argumentation, but we're not discussing.

[vague belfry]

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yROxal8jQZM )

[void portal]

I'm just an angsty teen in a gamedev's chat

[vague belfry]

yeah nvm

I think I've covered the main points now anyway, sorry

[void portal]

I wish it to be interesting, but it's hard to follow along, and I don't have any power over the outcome. Not to be a "my vote doesn't matter", but just the fact that it's about the next millennia across the universe

[vague belfry]

hm

[void portal]

like, I AM insignificant in that picture

[vague belfry]

well not quite

you see, this century is special

[jolly sky]

Everyone in the Discord is. The timescale is way too far to even have any impact on

[vague belfry]

different from any of the up to about 8 million further centuries

(in about 800 mil years, the sun roasts earth's landmasses)

[fossil sapphire]

https://i.imgur.com/PxJDhNd.jpeg

(For legal reasons this is a joke)

[vague belfry]

either space contamination will happen this century or later not anymore at all for if/once the problem has been addressed

you see, a chain is only as strong as its weakest element

when it comes to new frontiers, science, innovations etc.

the weakest element usually is the earliest one

[void portal]

This is very much an academic topic. It's not dumbed down enough for casual consuption

[vague belfry]

because one knows the least about the side-effects, has least experience, maturity

[ivory creek]

https://tenor.com/view/disney-moana-and-the-call-isnt-out-there-at-all-inside-me-gif-15813839

[ivory creek]

Third Element found

[vague belfry]

for example venus' phosphine likely came from a contamination event from some of the 46 probe missions to it

[vague belfry]

yeah

it's a highly complex, vast, interdisciplinary topic

[void portal]

but that's evolution. we try and fail, no?

[jolly sky]

That feels like a stretch at best

[cosmic patio]

So why share it here? If I may interject.

[void portal]

We engage

[vague belfry]

we can be more foresightful, more mindful, careful about our approaches, there's no need to rush (outside of some people's greed, recklessness)

[vague belfry]

no it isn't.

there actually is a hand full separate scientists that independently wonder about that, too

[cosmic patio]

It seems you're asking a lot out of strangers on a gamedev's discord, mate.

[vague belfry]

it's been deemed a potential biomarker (the phosphine)

[ivory creek]

This is a gamedev discord? Doubt
We never talk about game dev in #general-chat-programming

[vague belfry]

(bec geological processes aren't quite known for producing it continually and if not, then it shouldn't stay around for long)

[ivory creek]

This is a server full of subservers

[void portal]

no access :(

[vague belfry]

to try anyway but also bec of healthygamer_gg's stream just earlier

[ivory creek]

Skill issue. It's the programming channel

[cosmic patio]

That's a fair point. Thank you, Chazzers.

[vague belfry]

Thor is quite intelligent and mature about ethics, animal care/awareness

and they talked about "callings"

[cosmic patio]

Regardless, is this quite the place for this?

[vague belfry]

and so I thought if they want to do smth extremely useful, entering the million years history books as heroes possibly

then outreach or effort on this once in a civilization's life-time utmost large crisis

[void portal]

nah, it's gonna be the billionaire that does that, enter the books that is

[ivory creek]

The stream got people thinking DEEP

[vague belfry]

(namely about entire instances of evolution of life being kick-started or not, which thousands of future generations condemning us for our hubris, arrogance for making such irreversible choice despite knowing million times less)

then like... THIS IS IT, or not(?)

most people from the future potential hundreds of millions of years won't have such chance to do such good

(could be an argument one could try to bring up)

[cosmic patio]

The time frame you are talking about is so impossibly large, man.

[vague belfry]

I mean I used it as opportunity, was aware of this issue before, but yeah

[vague belfry]

yes I know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCllxq6NZbk

this ted talk for example only exists bec of my outreach

[ivory creek]

Source of claim

[vague belfry]

I contacted Ted Talk beforehand on this topic and got a response about it, told me to submit an own presentation if I wanted

[void portal]

So, you're thinking how we condemn global warming, now that it's irreversible? And then not doing that mistake again for future generations?

[vague belfry]

but for reasons I didn't, and soon later this ted talk came up, I strongly doubt it's coincidence. no one before or afterward presented the topic

(and I had outreached to NASA before, too)

I guess I can look up the email messages

[ivory creek]

Aran... you do you. Your courage to do these things is admirable

[jolly sky]

I think we should focus more on the planet we currently have than bothering about with space

[vague belfry]

thank you 🙂

[vague belfry]

yeah I understand that, I really do

Like I'd wish we could afford that right now

but like... this space contamination issue just isn't smth we can wait for handling after we have solved all problems here

bec then it'll be too late..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkl55_ykFws

take this mission for example

[cosmic patio]

Why not just cleanse what's contaminated?

[vague belfry]

the intention is to dive deep into an ice moon, and then open up and spread out many more probes

they want to go there to search for life (ironically)

[cosmic patio]

Sounds pretty cool?

[vague belfry]

bec scientists think the chances there are the highest for it (internal heating bec gas planets knead the ice moons, by different gravity depending on how far parts of the moons are away)

but this also means that this has the highest contamination risks with it

for if there is no life (or if there is but not as advanced or also mass extinction events like great oxygenation)

and ALSO...

dozens of these ice moons have huge geysers

spewing material out 10k kilometers to space where it doesn't fall back, spraying at each other

contaminate 1 and you may get a bio-kessler syndrome, uncontrollable mutual contamination unbound

[vague belfry]

it's... criminal unfortunately

[void portal]

mate, this sounds bonkers. I think the notion that you're the only one, is false. Cuz you're referencing studies and sources, that other's might have seen.

[vague belfry]

like... this could lead to evolution and wild animals needlessly suffering in astronomical numbers throughout the far future

[vague belfry]

those are resources on the science not the moral component to this

I'm the only one really working on this

but bioethicist Asher Soryl has done some by now, too

[void portal]

that you know of

[vague belfry]

but like think of AI safety and LessWrong etc.

[void portal]

Do you have academic background?

[vague belfry]

like they have thousands of people work on that

but on this other thing barely anyone and the crisis isn't even known publicly

[vague belfry]

yes

[cosmic patio]

If you're so deep into all of this, and have figured all this out, why are you talking about it to us, and not to people that could do something about it?

[vague belfry]

I studied mathematics at the technical university of munich

for a master of science

[void portal]

Like, do you have a name for yourself, and are you in academic circles?

[vague belfry]

I've been searching for people and the topic like every day for 2 years now...

[vague belfry]

I'm not a known person, reputation-wise, if you mean that

[vague belfry]

already done that

[cosmic patio]

So why are you here?

[vague belfry]

the US Space Operations Command, the FBI, INTERPOL, you name it

[jolly sky]

Look, if we decide to give up on Earth and colonise other planets, there's no chance that we won't contaminate it. Thats the sacrifice we will have to make. otherwise we will never leave Earth

[vague belfry]

the japanese prime minister, the CIA,...

[void portal]

I have to ask, is your nametag your actual name, or an AOT reference?

[vague belfry]

(almost) anything you could think of

again, the list of institutions and people emails above with 100k entries I put up above

[jolly sky]

We won't be able to Colonise other planets, and avoid contamination

That's just going to happen regardless

[vague belfry]

oh, about the nickname it's a combination of things based on interests

you see, I dissected super metroid, a snes game

but also like animes like steins;gate and AoT

[jolly sky]

Either from our own bacteria on the planet, or from whatever materials we leave there

[vague belfry]

Samus Aran's name, she's a bounty hunter, hunter means Jaeger in german

so I mixed these things together, for explaining my nickname if it's so interesting

We won't be able to Colonise other planets, and avoid contamination
That's just going to happen regardless
no it won't. the correct decision and enforcable one is to stay on earth

anything in space is extremely vulnerable

[cosmic patio]

Ok, then why is it all there? For us not to take?

[jolly sky]

I'm pretty sure it's hardier than you think it is

[vague belfry]

we won't colonize. it's not part of the fermi paradox solution

[vague belfry]

yes, it isn't there for us to take.

However... this doesn't mean that there are no great things to do in space

it's just not what people think of

You see, imagine an advanced civilization that is ethically mature

and let's say all their needs are solved

and maybe their biosphere needs, too

like e.g. maybe with artificially genetically modified humanly intelligent octopuses or squids

[cosmic patio]

What you suggest is already an impossibility.

[vague belfry]

because intelligence helps avoiding harm and they coudl be effective caretakers of ocean life

[void portal]

But we're extremely destructive. Life is majority suffering as you said. And we have not developed morality for future extraterrestrial life.

[vague belfry]

hm? which part do you mean

[cosmic patio]

.

[vague belfry]

well yes... but don't judge a person by how they are as baby

[cosmic patio]

Have you read history?

[vague belfry]

many of our behaviors are a result of lack of resources, necessitated by needs

where in a world of abundance we can actually care for the things we otherwise couldn't

[cosmic patio]

There are patterns ingrained into our very dna that would not allow such a thing to happen.

[vague belfry]

bec we have to prioritize and that means having to abandon other things we cannot afford helping etc.

[vague belfry]

oh

well anyway, so on that part...

imagine you are an advanced civ and wanted to be as efficient on largest scale as possible to do greater good in the world

well I'd then claim that the topic of planets developing biospheres on them or not, like this very specific difference

would be a super important one with huge priority because the scale is just gigantic (octillions of animals and natural interplanetary contamination processes could cascade the scale upward even, too, it's a self-feeding process)

[jolly sky]

I'd argue that to that aware of all life in all it's forms to protect all of it, we'd have to be functionally omnipotent

[cosmic patio]

I think your biggest issue here is that we are all individuals, and not some great hivemind. You talk about being an advanced civilization, but that is made of people, who won't go after "the greater good", but their own desires (for the most part).

[vague belfry]

and so if for example cleaning up our system from asteroid belts' asteroids for if some of them would contain frozen microbes that could otherwise eventually be thrown out of the system and land elsewhere to trigger evolution causing misery to octillions of wild animals

preventing this with comparable minimal effort would be extremely efficient

[void portal]

To take it back to Pirate Software, when it comes to calling. He said that the established reputation of the ferret rescue is what made it possible to expand to the worlds biggest ferret rescue.

I fear that you lack the foundation and reputation to make the change you wish to see.

[vague belfry]

or in abstract terms, if you'd have a finite amount of change or effort you could put into, and some equation were to describe how well you're doing, like e.g.:
a°x^3 + b°x^2 + c°x + d

then you'd want to put it into the leading term

[jolly sky]

You can't possibly ask a civilisation to be that aware of all the single possibilites, if's and maybe's that could possibly happen

[cosmic patio]

Why would any of that cause misery? If they did evolve, would they not do so to survive in whatever situation they are in?

[vague belfry]

because the difference, the positive impact there can be the largest (rather than just shifting a problematic long-term dynamic or changing the angle/slope slightly)

[jolly sky]

We'd literally have to be omnipotent to be aware of all of that

[vague belfry]

animals in the wild mainly suffer according to 247+ studies by evolutionary biologists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVi4jYySIv4

the vast majority of animals are the small ones, r-selection strategiests

[cosmic patio]

Okay? If that's the natural state of existence, what's the problem? We all suffer too, and nobody's suggesting we stop having kids.

[jolly sky]

The chances of that happening are near impossible at best considering how much Space there is in space

[void portal]

And that you have just started on the main objective without building your network. I get that this is a HUGE calling for you, so you have no time to lose. But you said it yourself, you've spent over 500 consecutive days on this, with minimal result. That's inefficient.

[vague belfry]

which pump out offspring in hope few survive, minimizing individual care, rather maximizing suffering

but like... again, for my most general argument, it doesn't require this assumption even

at least for the near future

because either way, regardless where one would vie evolution of life on an ethical axis

like either all negative or around 0, some neg. some pos. or all pos.

because the following is true either way:

1. Evolution of life unfolding on exoplanets (or any of the 200+ solar system ice moons) morally is a BIG DEAL.
2. Evolution can unfold in millions of very different ways.
3. The window between best and worst versions in terms of well-being or suffering to come from it surely is astronomically gigantic.
4. Any near-future microbial contamination of planets at most will lead to an abysmal version (and likely negative, for octillions - namely quintillions at any time for billions of years - of animals, since according to evolutionary biologists, wild animals mainly suffer on average).

and so if by waiting and having discpline, not rushing out and contaminating things any time soon

we can e.g. make sure to just have a 5% better version of evolution

(5% of the window size)

then that difference already in terms of suffering, bec of the huge scale, could be in the magnitudes of factors of the suffering from world wars

to be avoided, that is.

(or for if we'd find out that it'd be bad anyway, overall, then we could just not do that)

also sorry, gotta read and address messages, was a lot to explain and address thoroughly before some messages

[ionic crater]

what in the world have i stumbled into?

[void portal]

But what you're describing is a brush against a comet, that millions of years down the line, leads to suffering. Like, WHY WOULD WE CARE?!

[vague belfry]

also, NASA admitted that they despite bio-security stage 4 clean-room conditions accidentally carried microbes to mars before

[cosmic patio]

Are you suggesting that the suffering of wild animals is in any way shape or form even possibly equivalent to the suffering that happened because of the wrold wars?

[vague belfry]

(reference would be this interview from 2022)

[cosmic patio]

Future, not even assured wild animals, too.

[vague belfry]

yeah absolutely so

but its scale is far larger of course

[cosmic patio]

I think you genuinely need help, mate.

[vague belfry]

predictably ones to emerge from 4.5 billion years advanced microbes

not aminoacids, RNA, DNA, single cells

[void portal]

This is like worse than talking to an anti-vegan about plants' pain receptors

[vague belfry]

where many steps in biology wouldn't be clear

we're talking contamination with microbes closest to animals in evolution

[cosmic patio]

Aran, my friend, you really wont find what you want here.

[vague belfry]

yes I do, but not mentally (as much)

[vague belfry]

okay...

well finding some understanding would already help me though

like this is a really difficult topic to explain

[cosmic patio]

I'm afraid that we aren't exactly in a place to understand this topic, or I'm not, at least.

[vague belfry]

no I don't think plants experience anything

the scientific basis seems far weaker there

[vague belfry]

all okay

just trying to cover the topic once in various places

(level of thoroughness depends on engagement etc.)

[void portal]

that's your biggest problem. You need an academic circle to better word these topics.

[vague belfry]

compassion

[void portal]

if you want to reach out, you need to know how to do public speaking

[vague belfry]

trust me I have tried and still am reaching out to them, too

at some days 100+ emails

[jolly sky]

Trying to understand something (and care about it) that has such infinitesimal chances of happening, and if it were to happen you're talking on massive timescales that are beyond any of our reaches is an almost impossible task

[vague belfry]

but only like 0.1% respond (and even that is exaggerated)

[void portal]

You should've done that Ted Talk, but you didn't, cuz you probably weren't prepared for public speaking. But that is the skill you need to convey a message

[vague belfry]

no it's not infinitesimal

there is people AIMING for this

[midnight nimbus]

Going around discord channels isnt helping you a great deal friend. Contact your local university for help on publishing your own paper to be peer reviewed. That will bring you understanding.

[vague belfry]

there is a panspermia society

[cosmic patio]

There is actual suffering going on now all across the world. Why spend your compassion on possible future suffering where it will make no difference?

[vague belfry]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlight_(interstellar_probe)

One goal of Starlight is to send terrestrial organisms along with the spacecraft, and observe how the interstellar environment and extreme acceleration affects them. This effort is known as Terrestrial Biomes in Space, and the lead candidate is Caenorhabditis elegans, a minuscule nematode.[1] The organism will spend most of the voyage in a frozen state, and once the spacecraft approaches its target they will be thawed by heat from the onboard plutonium.[1] Following their revival, the organisms will be monitored by various sensors, and the data they produce will be sent back to Earth. C. elegans have been used extensively in biological research as a model organism, owing to the fact that the worm is one of those having the fewest cells for an animal possessing a nervous system. A backup option for C. elegans are tardigrades, micro-animals that are known for their resilience to various conditions lethal to other animals, such as the vacuum environment of space and strong doses of ionizing radiation.[1]

Then there is also Laplace-P, the Artemis mission, Musk's Mars plans, DESTINY+, DARPA's fusion rockets, Earthling Project by SETI, the AXE mission, the BLISS mission, the indian Shukrayoon-1 mission, Celestis' and LifeShip's , MoonXcribe's activities
And the SPRITE mission, and EnVision, and Venera-D, and the Dragonfly mission, and Axiom Space's planned space station, DAVINCI mission, Enceladus Life Finder mission, E^2 T mission (Explorer of Enceladus and Titan), VERITAS to Venus, TRIPLE, and the Encoladas Explorer, and EnEx-RANGE, and THEO, and...
hopefully you slowly get a sense of the point here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH7Yo4s5mIM

[ionic crater]

why is this going on currently?

[void portal]

I mean, he says he is alone in this

[void portal]

Thor talked with Dr. K about callings

[vague belfry]

Europa Clipper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Clipper
Breakthrough Starshot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Starshot
Thousands of solar sails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p6Ur7V4ZVM
JUICE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Icy_Moons_Explorer
NASA's SWIM mission: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkl55_ykFws

(and many missions risk it happening)

AND from Anton Petrov I know also that some microbes could spread even on mars' surface

[cosmic patio]

Fair, but one person can make a difference. Look at Thor for an example.

[vague belfry]

not just in the ground where probes were recently taken

because... w8

(that timestamp) https://youtu.be/HJI06uS3OXE?t=418