Revert Angler Max Mana

[forest thorn]

I believe that angler max mana should be reduced back to 120 or 100. The current cap generates uninteresting overbuild gameplay patterns that generates so much value that its unpunishable.

[runic island]

Next patch has buffs to workers/risk-taking in the early game and a nerf to Angler Steed. Can evaluate further after that

[dark hollow]

you can punish it by eco king....

it alwys had an answer but somehow player want to make it leak

[winged arrow]

In theory, yes. But DarkQuacker isn't exactly some mid-ranker and he's not the only legend 2v2 player to point this out. If it was as easy as just inc king to beat it no one would think it was an issue. The fact that you can't consistently outscale it with a heavy eco strat just goes to show how problematic value-generating units are as a core concept when there's no real downside to overbuilding.

[dark hollow]

well i mean i don't mind it to be 120 mana mostly because that meta exist before 180 it was op at the end when it was 120

changing it back not gonna change much -> mostly for classic

ranked not gonna be affected much

i dono wha the winrate for it n first place

well leme try spaming it on ranked i guess for 10 game and let see

top 1%

i never think its op cause when i spam it -> and my opponent know how to eco king
we ends up same value army wise and he had more worker which is better and correct way fighting

[errant horizon]

Think getting Inc Kinged is exactly what I want when I'm playing Stangler.

The hardest games I've had have been the starvey ones with big send on 6,9,13 etc.

[dark hollow]

4/5/10/13 is it weakest acttualy

4-5 especly

6 normally where you want your no mather what

but yeah mana always more then 120 which is strong

and only possible with

i don't mind it nerfed to 180-> 140 or 150 acttualy

180 is the extreme case where you don't get any punish 4/5 and you get 180 easy

when that happen game become to snowbally for them yes

[pallid thunder]

"Mana values changed to nerf Angler and Bounty Hunter’s synergy with external mana sources (e.g. Steed) by 20%. No other effective changes." I don't really understand why this is a solution. I don't think anyone has really argued that the issue is specifically the interaction between angler and steed/starcaller/magician.

Seems consistently the issue expressed is that making KP max stacks 180 instead of 120 created problems in that you could generate so much value that it destroyed the economy everyone else is subject to.

[spark harness]

I think nerfing the mama synergy will make angler steed much less oppressive. 180 stacks will be much much harder to get as the first KP will usually have less stacks, making the other anglers die quicker too. We shall see but it’s a good step

[dark hollow]

mana synergy was very bad back then and it was buffed and it was fine (120) this exist for many patch

i guess its because 120-180 most player think its the problem rn

synergy it self is fine

nerfing that just reverting the old problem where become a unit that make bassicaly lose so much value

which i fell with rn with is still average level but almost bad for me cause the 25% mana value nerf

that why i recommend if we want nerf the max mana at last make it 150 or if worry then yeh just revert it to 120 i guess

we alerdy play 120 max mana for many patch back then and it was fine

especly since this is nerfed not the old one where they acttualy way stronger

[thorn gull]

I dont think a 20% mana synergy nerf is enough. I think the max needs to be a lot lower.

[dark hollow]

prolly enough is way lower then you think

[thorn gull]

Yeah I just lost to double lockin angler steed again on new patch. Hate this so much. Just so tired of it.

[pallid thunder]

Yeah, a near-max stacked Kingpin by wave 6 is still possible which is the one aspect I thought the patch might address. The fact that you maybe need an extra steed for the endless Kingpin factory to stay on pace compared to last patch seems compensated for by the increased max stacks. Staying perpetually over-value while only being behind on workers until around wave 7 or 8 is as achievable as it was before IMO, particularly if the KP spammer's mate creates any pressure.

[wicked ivy]

Just to clarify what the angler nerf this patch did exactly, since the patch notes were a little vague:

Angler max mana 60-> 75
Bounty max mana 180 -> 225
Angler/Bounty mana per unit 0.6 -> 0.75
Hp per stack 25 -> 20
Damage per stack 1.5 -> 1.2

(225 mana kp has the same stats as 180 mana last patch)

[pallid thunder]

Thanks for clarifying that. I had misinterpreted that angler was now receiving less mana per tick of a steed's ability, rather than receiving the same amount but it being a smaller % of the angler's total stacks.

[dark hollow]

when they did mana synergy reduce its mostly max mana improve but all other value is the same
worse with