The state of classic

[rustic fractal]

And my name here is my ig too

[weary shoal]

?

[rustic fractal]

Nah not in ranked they tend to end pretty early after patch, and its just what ive heard from people and seen

For classic

[hot karma]

Idk I'm not some super pro but I can have like 14.5-15k and barely hold 21

meanwhile I lose to either kp spam when the dude leaked close to 100% multiple early game rounds

or some other build like pyro/boars

some dude holding 21 with like 2-3 tanks and just all chieftain and some deepcoilers, doesn't make sense to me

Leaking people early and getting ahead doesnn't seem to matter at all if you have a cheese build that holds 21/22 on the other side. To OP's point, feel like you just insta lose

[weary shoal]

But I don’t see any classic games you done since patch ? Maybe app is buggy

[weary shoal]

There are good builds and there are bad builds. Certainly not random ? Can’t be.. I would need some examples where you think it’s weird that the enemy or you did hold, most of the times the send is the most important part. If u get centaurs and ogres on a aoe build, you gonna hold very likely even with a lower value

Also some units suffered from the patch on wave 21+ since the dmg is higher but the attack speed slower. For example caskets since they reduce by a flat amount. Kingclaws are still very good and can decide if you hold or not. But I don’t see a random factor

[vale coral]

As mentioned, send is quite important.
I can give an example.
Chieftan+Azeria+steeds+auras is a a very complex build to break. (It is back to being effective on this patch) Most chieftan shenanigans needs 4 eyes, as it is one big unit and the ramping damage. The thing is the overall regen is so high and Azeria's damage significant that you also need centaurs to start killing the backline (kill steeds=less mana=less regen)
Most builds are like this.
Pyro spam is weaker to auras and honeybear, as is boars
Egg spam is weaker to 4 eyes/ghost knights and witches

I have found on this patch getting past 21 requires a better endgame build than previous patches as well, and I don't consider that a bad thing

[hot karma]

Lost to this when he was leaking 100%+ for so many early rounds

crazy that someone can leak so much early game and still have almsot 17k value by end of game

This is just last couple days

Idk if it's a symptom of double lock in mostly, but seems like you get any of these rolls you won't lose early and just outscale everyone

Makes other masterminds just obsolete

[vale coral]

It is more likely redraw if they are consistently playing the same builds repeatedly.

I literally watched a dude redraw for grarl egg last night

[hot karma]

Whenever I check post game it's usually one or the other

I'm still more of the mind that you already have lock in, double lock in was maybe fine for an extra mode that rotates, but double lock in as a mastermind is just silly

[strange marsh]

This is me playing fiesta, randomly rolling steed angler btw. I dont think Ive played double lock in or redraw this patch.

[weary shoal]

u are supporting my statement ay nothing to add. at first picture that concrete gutter hold makes sense too. dont know what i should say to it

and that the other hold ... idk ogre send into kingclaw? instant hold and the other would need centaurs on that picture

ogre on the fatalizer + dc is super send too ... x)

no 4es against greendevil , tho its arguable if its better, 15k is huge on 21

[hot karma]

tip my cap to you then

[weary shoal]

the other is lioness... op af

[hot karma]

yeah I don't disagree with your initial post lol. I concur. I hadn't palyed legion in months, came back and classic is somehow worse than when I stopped

[terse solar]

this may be the same problem stated for 6 years now. if you have a rank in classic, people try hard, if people try hard, they wont have fun and disable others from having fun. classic needs to be unranked, (or hidden rank for soft mm purposes) no display on banners or rank so people dont target higher ranked people. when this happens people will just have fun

[hot karma]

I don't think the visible rank matters at all. It's a competitive game where one team is trying to beat another

So long as the game is inherently competitive, people will try to win...

[terse solar]

cannot disagree more, as I have seen it work in both directions and can you tell first hand that is not the case.

[hot karma]

what do you mean work in both directions?

[weary shoal]

Not true. People been tryharding before when there was no rank: It’s like boardgames, do you play them to win or lose ?

[weary shoal]

Did you try pve ?

And the numbers of kp steed or lioness abusers went down since last patch, I believe but I have no data. Maybe Jules will give data but I think we need to wait longer

[hot karma]

PvE the game mode for classic where myth is. Auto saves and everyone get sane sends?

[weary shoal]

👍

[hot karma]

Yea…. I thjnk it’s the most anti skill thing the game has lmao

[weary shoal]

Did you try it recently ? 😂 it’s the best now. Games ending at w7 etc

[hot karma]

You’ve removed an entire half of the thinking to the game

[weary shoal]

Repetitive building is not possible anymore so the other half came back 😏

[hot karma]

Tbh PvE was the thing I was actually disgusted about coming back after months of not playing. I really don’t get the mode as “fun”

[mental schooner]

I used to agree until this patch, now it's hilarious because the unpredictable sends are sometimes devastating so you actually have to adapt your builds from the other modes, and people are still figuring it out and making mistakes

Plus no safe masterminds/legions

[weary shoal]

Well everyone else I talked to thinks it’s big fun. Games ending at 7 because of 3 wave save and robo on 2 before, you finally need skill again! It’s best. Not being able to pick double lock in, lock in, any legion or redraw really is a good thing which should be there for all modes and maybe then one mode where it is allowed to play those..

[hearty oak]

It's OK if you don't like PvE, but saying it's anti skill is silly. You need to have good builds during the whole game and learn when/how to push to minimize leaks and cover for your team mates. I've seen multiple games ending before wave 10.

I really don't understand what it means that players tryhard and as a result of that players don't have fun.. It's a game, people try to win, what does it even mean to try hard? I inc king most of the waves, trying to build good units and hold - Is this tryharding? I play vs classic noobs that send me power mercs every wave and then fall behind in the game, are they tryharding?

[hot karma]

I guess this is fine. The forced non OP masterminds is good. But it’s still easy to game the system in early round if you recognize what the AI is doing for sends. There are more games that end early because the lack of king upgrades etc…. It’s not awful. I still think sending and determining when you might be able to leak someone or punish their under building or push workers when who’s sending to you is overbuilding is a skill.

[hot karma]

True but also you have no ability to choose sends to optimize trying to leak the other person. I hated it at first. I’ve warmed up to it but save/sending is something you should learn how to do. PvE removes that

[hot karma]

This was my point lol

[alpine sierra]

classic isn't really a place to learn legion. Otherwise it wouldn't have funky hot modes 🙂

[hot karma]

Classic is OG legion. Ranked is what’s new =\

[proven kiln]

i heard so many complains (i agree with).... but devs don't understand the real matter in classic. Since i begin to play, the patch only boost/nerf the income in early game. The matter of this boring build is that you can hold 23 (and even 24 if you cover previus wave from your team) with too low workers.

So it is very easy to solve : put dual lock and redraw a VERY VERY high income (so they will have the shutdowns, instead of stealing it) and just remove inc from wave 19+. So this OP (and totaly stupid) mode will be weaker in end game

if it is not enough, just remove the inc from wave 15... i garantie that this will solve everything

[hot karma]

There's just way too many mechanics that don't make sense together

Shutdown gold late just feeds the other team. You're punished for playing well and winning early. Why am I punished for playing well

[weary shoal]

You are only punished if you push too much and enemy can leak you.. just imagine you would have no chance for a comeback… 😂
The system is good.

[lilac canopy]

So you want to nerf double lock by giving it a "VERY VERY high" income?

[hot karma]

It's just wild sometimes you're having a good game, leaking enemy team pretty much whole game. You proleak twice later rounds and somehow they've gotten more gold from leaks than your team, and it's purely from shutdown gold

unless I misunderstand the gold from leaks numbers. I"m not against rubberband mechanics. I have almost 7k hours in dota. But even there rubberband mechanics have had to be tweaked multiple times

[weary shoal]

you shouldnt leak with shutdown at all x) specially if its a high one your team already dominates, the few lesser workers wont affect it so much

[proven kiln]

95% of the times the opponent has +30 inc, you will only win with the shutdown(s). Even if they do a "good" game, their only weak wave is enough to ruin everything. When you are already losing so much (30 inc is really big), on the other hand, you can take all the risks you want : if it is a success, you are good, if it is a losing, you lose nothing. So for noob players, this is just frustating to dominate all the game and lose because of the shutdown on the weak wave And there is always a weak wave : i remerber a dev telling in a patchnote, "the game is fun becaue you have a yolo with only t1-2 in your roll".

But it was not what i was telling : just nerf the end-game instead of the begining. It was the suggestion to solv the matter of this boring build

[alpine sierra]

my experience with 30 bonus income is that I outscaled it before wave 14

But if you pick an overnerfed mastermind yourself then its impossible

I have no idea what nerfing endgame has to do with bonus income but maybe thats only me

[proven kiln]

ok, the sugestion is (against kp ot liness or....) : 0 inc from wave 19+

[alpine sierra]

what would that help

[proven kiln]

if you win only the wave instead of the inc of in wave 19 20 and 21, this is a nerf for endgame

and you can compensate with normal inc (or big inc) in the begin

if you have 0 gold, how do yuo will up your 10 kp ?

[alpine sierra]

play like a normal player and try to adapt?

yes the standard "kp build' doesnt work

[proven kiln]

i'm playing 95% of the game random. So i adapt. The matter is not me

[alpine sierra]

so adapt as a player

giving value generating builds more income at the start will make your problem bigger

[proven kiln]

no

it wil solve the matter : no more shutdown

[alpine sierra]

then why not just let them change the shutdown system?

[proven kiln]

because the same dev was telling in the same patchnote (you didn't read it....) "we will never change it"

oh and he said in the same patchnot that "milleninium is not too strong" lol

so i know they will never change this. It is their life, they will never. OK, i accept. So i'm proposing something else they can accept

[alpine sierra]

can you point me to the patchnotes that they won't change the bonus income system?

[proven kiln]

2 months ago, jules

[alpine sierra]

So it would be easy to find?

[proven kiln]

i read it when it was here, i don' know where it is now

[alpine sierra]

Its not in the patch notes at least

[proven kiln]

you have the date and the author

[alpine sierra]

I think if you make a normal #1062334911350046780 instead of writing here that you have a greater chance of success

but nerfing late game and buffing early would only make your problem bigger :p

[hot karma]

Lol

Impossible to punish cuz they're overbuilt, so you can only punish by pushing workers, if you push workers you go on shutdown, if you try to accumulate a lead, you will probably leak, feed your lead away in shutdown gold. So how do you punish this

We might win if 1 and 3 send better sends on 22, but this is still stupid. Why is this viable and the fact you got 4 people running the exact same build should tell you something is wrong with Classic

[pine coral]

You cant leak 3, his build has 100% symmetry buff

[slim aspen]

apart from that tree in the top right

[pine coral]

oh, i havent even seen that... clear missplay by muyu

[opal garnet]

i have a suggestion: leaked units have x% damage reduction to fighters (multiplicative with any other sources)

[weary shoal]

Sends been pretty bad against those who hold. But I understand the issue.. it’s annoying.

[slim aspen]

mini and wumbo change is great

[hot karma]

yeah I sent the 4.3k send, Probably win if my teammates send not ogres. Having said that, if you search up these top guys, they're the highest ranked in classic, 10k elo and they just 4 stack and spam angler/steed or other OP combos. It's 100% indicative of state of classic

[hearty oak]

I solo q, got bronze players in my team and they have to play vs bonus income players on the opponent team with similar rank. I hope they don't realize that because if I were them I would be so pissed lol..

[weary shoal]

Yeah, in my opinion every mode should be like pve that u can’t replicate builds.. but redraw would need to be changed back or taken out and double lock in could stay for custom maps only (like all legions) Atlantean too strong aswell

[warm quarry]

just lower the max stacks of kingpin back down and i think it helps a lot. i don't even play anymore because my classic elo got too high now i just play against the angler steed players

just tried to play for the first time in like a month and guess what, 4 stack of angler steeds!

jokes on them i guess, this game has nearly infinite depth and strategy and they spend their time doing the exact same build over and over and over and over. how boring.

[hot karma]

I get you're making Classic a casual mode but I'm still trying to win. No clue why entirely new players are thrown into games with this many higher players and also players that aren't new. I can't imagine it's fun for them and it's just a waste of my time knowing I'm like 90% going to lose

[maiden pulsar]

Next patch or hotfix, Double Lock-In will likely be fully disabled in Classic, and Redraw will be nerfed again

[maiden pulsar]

We go out of our way to keep very new players away from classic by:

1. Having a higher account level requirement for classic
2. Adding a warning sign for classic for low account levels

There aren't enough new and lower-rated players queueing for classic to only match them with each other, which is why we describe classic as "match with players of all skill levels." It's not a choice on our part; it's the only way to have the classic queue exist.

[hot karma]

I would guess it can exist with a longer queue time than <1 minute or concurrent players too low?

[maiden pulsar]

There aren't enough concurrent players, especially when only ~30% of players are queueing for classic (and 4v4 skill-based matchmaking is very difficult)

[umbral badge]

Would recommend removing egg from the mini and wumbo pool. Near impossible to break it and they get quite far ahead from it

Along with, and as always reducing KP stacks

[white fractal]

I second this. Egg in wumbo is broken (possibly because of divine blessing, but deffo broken regardless).

Good call with redraw nerf. I think it’s not enough, but I’ll definitely be testing the crap out of that. Probably good call on removing double lock in. I think atlantean may deserve the axe as well. A lot revolves around the current endgame play of racing on 21 since nobody is really holding it so easy anymore. KP and egg are the best delay, and even the lioness is outperforming your basic damage builds. Just stack as much hp, usually big units and hope to outlast the enemy.

[maiden pulsar]

I get that Eggsack is strong, but let's assume we remove it from the pool.

Is the next call going to be for Big Wig to get removed? And after Big Wig is removed, the next-in-line strongest option?

If so, I'd rather let strong options exist and let that be part of the variance of an unranked mode.

If Eggsack is 1-2 tiers better than the 2nd best option, then willing to remove it. Let me know if you're 95%+ confident that's true, or if we should wait a little longer to confirm (given the mode is still fresh)

[full cipher]

Eggsack in combo with divine is atleast 2 tiers better than any other option, the value it generates is instant and uninteractable. Big wig can be set back if the enemy sends well, it is not instant and requires 5+ waves before it even equals the value egg got after 2 waves, it also has no synergy with any of the starting buffs

[white fractal]

I don’t even know that big wig is super strong when you start on wave 3. Probably better than the other options though. Egg in wumbo with divine is 15w on wave 6 while holding. Remains strong on 7 due to its high damage. Just slam like a veteran or so, and the hydralings will kill the wave while allowing you to keep divine blessing if a hydraling survives

personally I like adding degeneracy to game modes. I’ll take consistent king races on wave 4 as a game modes for me. It’s more about how I think others will perceive it

I still want the 100% bert thing even though nobody else does 😂

I just had a really stupid idea. What if we full leak 3, then lock in bone warrior and slam divine blessing on it. Will triggering an antistuck on wave 4 allow my classic game to break your server? I’m definitely sandboxing it when I get home