#King HP should have break points

114 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

halcyon aurora
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I really expect this to be controversial but I generally have found regen to always be the best option for king ups, and it's also pretty annoying when you get a king to a nice number for them to heal up so freely.

So... I'd like to potentially see the kings hp bar being broken down into segments that once reached they can't recover past (exception of Savior and potentially Savior could be a little buffed in overhealing/providing a shield to the king).

My initial thoughts would be the break points being at 50% and 75% but could see a number of different variations working suhh as 60% and 80%.

Why? Adds further urgency into the game, braking and leaking to the king more important, and well a Savior buff.

halcyon aurora
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In addition to this I don't really know of any game that has a core/king mechanic that heals us much as Legion

sleek timber
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Pretty sure the nexus in League of Legends as well as the two towers in front of it will heal fully over time if they are not destroyed

halcyon aurora
lethal ingot
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I'm of the opposite opinion, heal seems to be basically useless unless your opponents get a lucky wave or two in before wave 10 or so. If anything you should buff heal...

Usually I see people doing attack if their towers deal single-target damage, and spell if they deal AoE.

light prairie
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i do think king regen is the strongest of the 3 you can level on him so i agree

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break points of 25/50/75 seems reasonable

ebon gyro
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I think this is reasonable ONLY IF it turns on after wave 10

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Or some other time late into the game

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Getting ogered on 6 and being stuck 25% hp rest of the game doesnt seem very well thought out

naive zealot
faint turtle
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Can also nerf the regen and let the King up give maximum King hp so thatbthis upgrade is not only good after you take a hit

dim pivot
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I wouldn't like said break points tbh. In most terms, the team that has the urge to perform Regeneration kingups is way behind already, means this is at least a small oppurtunity to get back into the game. Green kingups is most useful when the king is Low Life already, since the regen scales with HP missing which is practically useless at high health.

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I'd just say green king ups are a "smart" way of tenacy. Removing that would make the snowbally Team even snowballier, resulting in no comeback possible and ff instead

light prairie
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i'd say having the break points after wave 10 is the best way to go about it

naive zealot
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king regen is already super slow especially in ranked when your king gets chunked it's pretty permanent

brittle mountain
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At wave 21, King's max health is 22,951

Each Regen up, increases healing by .0045% max + missing

10 Regens = .045% max + missing

22,951 * .00045 = 10.33 health / second (rounded up)

If we assume the king literally survives a wave with ONE single hit point, that makes his missing health 22,950 which equals 10.33 health / second (rounding up)

So functionally speaking, surviving wave 21 with literally one health point left, gives the King approximately 21 health / second in regeneration. Each wave after 21 has roughly 30 seconds of build time, and wave length is variable but for the purposes of example we'll consider each wave lasting one entire minute.

Even assuming that 21 health / second is a CONSTANT, which it isn't since half of it is determined by "missing health" which decreases as it is healed (thus slowing down the regen / second rate), 21 * 90 = 1,890 health per round.

22,951 / 1,890 = 12 rounds (floored)

The concept is interesting. But the math doesn't support the necessity you are claiming. I don't think I've ever HEARD of a game lasting to wave 33. I don't think it's even POSSIBLE. And even if it were, for your team to go 12 straight rounds without touching your king, AFTER taking it down to 1 HP on wave 21?

This just isn't something that is "legitimate" mathematically

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Now, all of that being said, it could be I messed up my math somewhere

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I just, don't see the numerical justification for it, if I was indeed accurate

halcyon aurora
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Test it, have a full regen king on wave 10 at 50%, see how many waves you clear before it goes back up to a higher -being on value or lower value than the base value of the wave

brittle mountain
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Challenge accepted, HOWEVER - your caveat here is "being at MOST, right on value"

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That's an entirely different problem

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Because now, you're talking about balancing the King's regen / breakpoints / etc., against people being dumb

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If I take more than 50% king, and I'm NOT planning on revenge bombing the very next wave

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I am the dumb

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That has nothing to do with King

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wave 10 king has 8,323 health

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-smite 50

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started a stopwatch timer on my phone

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My math is mathing so far

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Now, couple things:

1.) I specifically calc'd this off of wave 21, because the king literally doesn't gain more HP past that. So it's one less variable to have to consider.

2.) That controlled variable, actually HURTS your alleged concern, because every wave EXCEPT the repeating 21's, the King DOES gain health. Which means the missing HP grows, which means regen goes back UP for a bit

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But like, 2 and a half minutes in, king has gained a few percent points

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I would guess that in optimal conditions, King would probably require close to 10 waves if he didn't take any damage

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It's your idea, so I would argue you should be the one doing the proofing if you want this to be considered tested and vetted

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As far as I'm concerned, napkin math + a stopwatch timer are syncing up for this to not be a legitimate concern under real conditions

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All of that being said, I STILL think this is an interesting idea. It might not be a valid concern, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be cool to implement in other ways

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Imagine if we BUFFED regen to actually matter, and THEN implemented this idea. Could be unique and different

halcyon aurora
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I'm not the one trying to math it out, or really argue it just that when you have a good king hit, and the king hp heals it off during the game like it's nothing it is pretty annoying.

Plus if you aren't pushing workers, then you're still losing anyway.

Further examples how many times have you seen a king lose a chunk of HP for it to recover and heal past your king later into the game.

It's also really hard to get the timing right with longer waves, and some shorter waves etc.

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King even heals while under attack to iirc

brittle mountain
# halcyon aurora I'm not the one trying to math it out, or really argue it just that when you hav...

That's EXACTLY my point, though. You literally didn't math it out, and have no interest in doing so.

I personally "feel" like running a red light shouldn't be a big deal. It feels AWFUL to "just miss" the yellow because the guy in front me was a pansy, and now I have to wait for what FEELS like an eternity for it to be green again....

But if you do the MATH and make OBSERVATIONS, you find out, "most lights" are on one of two things: weight triggered timer (buried under the road), or just flat out TIMED in general.

And usually, those timers tend to be around 4 minutes

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So I'm having an ulcer and driving recklessly, because I "feel" like 4 minutes is unbearable

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Put some facts into those feelings

halcyon aurora
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I don't want to math it out, as there's so much to it. You're right.

brittle mountain
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see how they stack up

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So, I think instead of arguing from a position of "this is something that hurts the game" I think you should shift towards "this is something that would be different for the game"

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Like, if we made it so king could regen "blocks" of health per wave, but once we damage down past X threshold, those blocks are gone forever

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that'd be different, possibly cool?

halcyon aurora
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West's team have a few more regen ups and already at the same hp

brittle mountain
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Since when did Twitch have forced ads?

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I even have ad blocker

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Well, I'm not sitting through a 30 second ad. How's the King difference now?

halcyon aurora
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If the game was far simpler and just had x waves are this time, it would be far easier but it's not.

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And west team's king up surpassed them

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They still lost in the end of course, but that is how it goes

brittle mountain
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Look, if you don't care about facts, I can't convince you with facts. I also don't care about your feelings, so this is probably just an impasse

halcyon aurora
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Okay

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Thanks bye then?

brittle mountain
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I don't know if I can turn this around to make this a productive convo if I stay here

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indeed. Take care man

halcyon aurora
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As for maths and thanks, it takes about 1minute and 30 seconds to heal 10% king up.

Tested with a stop watch, starting with 50 king up on wave 11 but with full regen.

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With playback at 1.3 to match ingame speed (can't remember if it's 1.2 or 1.3x - ingame so may have been a bit quicker).

brittle mountain
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Can you provide a link to where you found that information regarding play speed?

halcyon aurora
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@ebon gyro might know the correct speed and whether they actually updated it

ebon gyro
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i think its 1.2, but regen mostly matters when ur low hp

brittle mountain
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I don't see any mention of game speed in patch notes section of discord

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but, Quacker definitely knows more about this stuff than I do

brittle mountain
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turns out if this is true, my math was probably off

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So, you figure 10 * .8 = 8, which would be my adjusted estimate

And your clock of 1.5 per 10% health x 5 = 7.5

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adjusted consensus is, math is correct, but my interpretation was wrong

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Because like 2% or so health is relatively trivial. But 10%, isn't

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If you can heal up significantly like that within one or two rounds, then yes, that checks out with your feelings, danwulfe

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I owe you an apology woah

naive zealot
brittle mountain
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I mean, in all fairness, I was the one who had incorrect numbers.

General point does stand, which is why I was so quick to launch into sardonic dismissiveness. But, turns out regen is a little more important than I gave it credit for, since the game speed is faster than the sandbox speed

sleek timber
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but if you feed 200 mythium into health regen it better be doing something, right?

brittle mountain
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That's... debatable, actually.

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On the one hand, if regen is literally pointless, then sure, why even bother having it

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On the other hand, if it literally is the sole determining factor, why even bother having anything besides regen?

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The happy medium, also seems to feel unfair for some people, hence this thread's existence

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So, I think it's more complicated than at least I thought it was, at first glance

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Personally I never invest more than a single point of regen, until either attack and spell are maxed, or if I think I'm getting bombed early enough for a single regen rank to carry me through into later rounds

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and by later, I mean "well they're trying to chunk king on 6, then maybe seal it on wave 12"

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If we had breakpoints as Danwulfe suggested, perhaps it would be a more viable strategy to deal big-boi damage on 6, and then have it still relevant on 12?

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I don't know if that's a "good" idea, but I still maintain as I've said all along... it would be interesting to try it out

sleek timber
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Isn't big boy damage always relevant as king damage awards you gold and forces the opponent to either no longer leak or invest into regen? Why is it important to tell the opponent "No, you stay down"?

wicked pivot
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regen needs to be reasonably strong, because as Hal pointed out, king dmg/aoe upgrades prevent king dmg, thus preventing enemy from gaining more advantage from leaks

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also regen at least somewhat prevents enemy starving you 5 waves, or until you send, and then finish you off after, when you had taken a big hit earlier
(like what we saw in tenacity patch)

brittle mountain
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He's a long standing member of the community, is all I can say on the matter that isn't just treading water with the same comments I've already made

halcyon aurora
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I knew this would generally split opinion or not be well received to, so I'm glad it's got people talking about it.

As an example, you starve your opponent for a few waves and get them down to 60% King HP.

It's now a starved game and the next few waves they're strong and on value with their king regen full.

That damage you put on them will go within the next 4 waves essentially.

As a change it could even be something as simple as when the king is taking damage the regen stops for a wave.

brittle mountain
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I guess my counter point at this current juncture would be, what about the inherent bonuses to leaking you got from those waves?

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Do you feel it's not enough?

halcyon aurora
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You got the gold, but the opponents likely have higher income depending how it played out.

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It's also somwhat meaningless since it will never change in LTD2, but hopefully it's given food for thought in the next game 😉

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Something most people struggle with in this game is also closing a game out.

brittle mountain
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fair.

wicked pivot
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it's an interesting debate - come back vs closing games

In general, I think this game has bigger issue with ppl feeling like matches are lost, and therefore just give up and throw.

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I suppose that has more to do with economical disadvantage, but King health definitely plays a role in it too

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Another angle I could see the game taking - remove gold from king dmg and outright remove regen

brittle mountain
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My team just won a game in Classic after one person quit and another tried to FF at the start (Tower Defense) and again when I was leaking 50% or so the first several waves

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But then I stabilized, and we wound up winning

halcyon aurora
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Definitely more economical based, along with bad rolls, or you look at your mates lane and regret that choice. A lot of influence really. King HP you can always get back 😛

brittle mountain
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I think if we had King thresholds, I probably would have lost because we would be going into wave 23 still at 50%

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so it'd definitely change the game

wicked pivot
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I think this is an interesting idea, and ppl would prolly be fine with this, had LTD2 started like that
It's just incredibly hard to push big changes after years of development into same direction

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Everyone is just against any change that doesn't directly allign with their vision, simply out of comfort

halcyon aurora
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Oh for sure, and even more now there really be no new development for Legion just the last units releasing and bug fixes.

hoary violet
north flume
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Is this suggestion aimed at classic or ranked..? I don't play classic at all but as I've seen mentioned this is completely unneeded in ranked. Also increasing regen BEFORE taking damage is not efficient in the first place as the other two upgrades would help reduce the amount of damage taken + deny damage gold to the other team.