#Can we get a playstyle ban in ranked?

62 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

deep magnet
#

It's been about a year of fiesta ruining ranked games for me. I can't be the only one completely bored of this.

Since we aren't banning it from ranked, can we get a 1 playtstyle ban per person or something so it doesn't have to be in my games? I literally quit playing ltd2 SOOO much just because of this one playstyle. I don't care if it's balanced win rate or not. It's super unfun. It makes the games super unfun and nothing like what ltd2 is meant to be. Cross sui in ranked is also super not fun to play with or against in ranked even pre fiesta times. Again, this isn't a complaint that its broken or needs balanced, it's a request to please please please give me a way to play ranked without it in my games. I log off ltd2 SOOOO much due to this playstyle. The games aren't fun and completely different than ppl playing "normal" playstyles.

burnt hinge
#

that'd be 4 banned playstyles per game, which is too much imo

near cave
#

I guess its a thing of opinion. Tbh I found Fiesta pretty strong last season and a game in higher elo regions without fiesta was kinda unlikely, with current patch meta however it personally became a pretty rare encounter. For me it feels super bad especially because the person sending into it snowballs super hard, thanks to the patch that now rewards the breaking player way higher.

Still I find diversity amongst strats pretty important, so I guess just implementing a ban system ain't a good thing. This would punish newer players at most who then eg cannot play lock in fighter. Seeing your current elo I'm also wondering why this is such a big deal to you, I just cant imagine that this is such a throwout as you express it.

☝🏻 Not intended as a personal attack btw! Im honestly just trying to understand your point.

tight inlet
#

fiesta turns one big part of the game upside down

When you leak anyone but fiesta before midgame, you generally can feel good about it
but for fiesta, you either feel neutral with mid sized leak or bad with smaller leak (this is the very problematic part)

You have to really hit a home run for the leak to feel good, just how it plays out is not really good for the game imo.

It also puts more emphasis on the "guessing" part of the game, because now there is only 1 good outcome out of 4 possible outcomes that you as opponent experience.

near cave
#

Well, I'd agree about that for the pre 11.01 fiesta, but since that, it's not scaling that hard anymore. Imo I'd say that you have good leaks to still have a "viable" run, instead of a boosted run as it was before. The risk got way higher while the reward stood the same. I think fiesta im fact needs a small buff to generally be viable again. But thats also just my Opinion ^^ numbers however have gone way back. Check the stats on Legionlord. Fiesta ain't as strong as it was. Therefore I find a sort of ban system pretty unneeded imo, and if, then more for things like double lock in, since nightmare butcher is the true gamebreaker atm. At least thats what I hate most.

tight inlet
#

it's not so much about balance or viability, but more about how it warps the game and how it changes your experience. What normally feels good, feels bad and that's pretty negative experience for some people

especially for long time TD players, Leaks were always bad before fiesta, in every single TD game, in the previous iterations of this game as well
Now obviously there was always a "pro leak" but that is just so much more special kind of thing.

I would argue that this game really doesn't need fiesta to be successful, and in fact might fare a bit better
I understand that many old time players of LTD2 are not in favor of removing fiesta, but I think it's more about what these players have gotten accustomed to rather than if it actually increases the amount of fun these players are generally having.

burnt hinge
lucid light
#

Fiesta is fun for the player playing it. Especially if you hate your teammate.

near cave
#

I was able to fetch some data about fiesta, since I was certain the Numbers on Legionlord were caused from 11.00 (which I seemingly was partially right about) but still, I thought the impact would've been way higher which it wasn't. Being fair, I'll share it here.

xrbNHYa.png Qs4Teu4.png 3pZ2GIo.png
#

Games are all Top 3000 Games from each patch, outsourcing a possible influence from elo inflation

hot wave
#

I personally don't think Fiesta is in a terrible spot at the moment. I agree that it can be frustrating, especially for newer players. So I think a slightly underpowered Fiesta is a good thing.

Adds a lot of extra strats and thinking to the game!

burnt hinge
#

It's interesting to see that Megamind is so popular. If you're a competitive player, you want as little randomness as possible and always try to make the most optimal choice

near cave
#

Dont forget that this is a versus game. Playing megamind makes you unpredictable. What Fiesta can be better than a disguised one? calculated

#

These are practically snail 1 proof, except for very few cases where people just send lucksnails

#

But the probability goes way down.

open sleet
#

I was going to type up a long response but honestly I think enough has been said back in venting on my end.

TL;DR is agree that Fiesta is stupid. Disagree that we should playstyle ban.

deep magnet
deep magnet
# near cave I was able to fetch some data about fiesta, since I was certain the Numbers on L...

Exactly this!! Fiesta pick rate at about 50% plus megamind being insanely high makes there to be about 60-70% of games having fiesta in it.

Back to my point, I love ltd2 so much. One of my all time favorite games outside of fiesta and sui cross builds. Fiesta and sui cross are just a whole entirely different game that is completely unfun to me.

So now with this data, we are seeing that to me, about 60-70% percent of my games based on megamind randomness are forcing me to play a game that isn’t ltd2 to me. More like legion leak offense game which is so different and so boring.

I still login often in hopes to play a non fiesta game but soon log off as 70% happens a lot.

deep magnet
open sleet
#

We've changed things like this before. Some MM's get re-worked and some even get removed from ranked. idk what the dev intents are on fiesta, or if they're discussing it internally

#

I would say, they're aware it's causing issues and frustration

tight inlet
#

if fiesta was always negative with orange leak it would at least make things a bit more bearable

#

I can live with yellow leaks being neutral - positive depending on percentages

#

again not so much about the strength of fiesta, but more about how it makes me feel

#

feeling bad when I orange leak fiesta is just so miserable honestly

open sleet
#

I think, a better suggestion would be to re-work Fiesta to have proportional rewards inversely scaled to leak%

#

leak 1%? You get extra for pro-leaking on top of fiesta

#

leak 101%? You get penalized because like, dude, do you even BUILD?

#

This has its own problems, though. For instance, if I leak a single drake, depending on the wave, that one drake could be like 50% leak

#

or it could be .5%

#

but either way, one drake leaking to king is usually not a threat

#

so is it still a pro leak?

#

Though, end of the day, if the complaint is really more of a "I don't like Fiesta existing conceptually" then no amount of reworks or retooling is going to address the complaint

#

short of its removal

near cave
#

@deep magnet

Aite. I'll just try to make a somekind progressive call, because it is pretty obvious, that we have quite different opinions and also won't find a scenario where everyone is happy, and ofc I also don't want to cause any arguements ^^

I assume that you, being a pretty high elo player definitely have a very good (definitely better than mine) clue of the game. Just wanted to mention that in first place.

I guess your main part of your frustration is your attitude. Important, by this I don't want to front you at any means!! I do just think that you are overestimating the "potential" of Fiesta, as a somekind bad thing, very hard to control, which just does not need to be the case.

If you just compare it to the other MMs you'll notice, that it ain't being too much different. Most of them just give you a certain step of Bonus income, the most common being greed. The only difference that Fiesta has is that it somewhat have to leak to somehow obtain that bonus income, which the other masterminds already have in advance. Yes, a "perfect" leak gives the player a little more Gold than said bonus income, but you won't have a game with 10 pro leaks up to wave 10, will you? Leaking a bit too high always turns said advantage immediately into a big disadvantage, I'd say that all <20% leaks are viable and "progressive", while everything above that is already a disadvantage. As you may not forget, all the units the person leaks, gets towards the gold count of the opposing team, and since recent patches, predominantly to the sender of the fiesta player.
.

#

I think the only "real" strength Fiesta has, is that people are making up too many thoughts about how to beat that. I'd just play normally vs it, just as against every other Mastermind. Many Fiesta players like overpushing workers, since they feel safe that way, cause they got gold for leaking right? Punish that, perform small saves and send on weak waves, as against every other player. Any like 40%ish leak already is to your advantage and to the fiesta players' disadvantage.

And if you don't believe me, I'd recommend sth, I've done quite a lot. Play a Mastermind you deeply dislike. I eg started playing YOLO only since I'm really nuts with it. And somehow, I even experienced fun with it. It ain't as shitty as I always thought and I also experienced, why players (also many top of the line players) love playing it.

Hating and trying to avoid Fiesta won't give you anything more useful than just more hate and frustration or maybe even the impact to somewhen just leave the Legion TD 2 community. If you do instead just discover it and collect some experience I'm quite certain that you'll eventually realize, that all of these extremely negative feelings towards this MM are mostly just in your head.

You honestly do not have to love or like it for yourself, but you also should not give it a seemingly bigger impact than it has in reality.

I hope I hit the right tone 🙂 I tried to remain somewhat neutral as good as I could.

tight inlet
#

I dont get how you guys can repeat stuff like bots, A bit reading and you would find out OP really dislikes how fiesta changes The dynamic of The game, nothing Else. No attitude, no balance issues, simply disliking how The game plays and feels with a fiesta in The Match. Nobody IS here to listen to "just change and learn to like IT"

near cave
#

☝🏻

tight inlet
#

....

#

it most definitely changes the dynamics of the game

near cave
#

Sorry but I can't help you any further and also don't know how to find any better or friendlier words than this

#

I'll call it from here, since I said everything I wanted.

analog yarrow
#

I have a couple of notes

Firstly, you mention that you dont want to create any arguments and want to take a neutral tone. Having a civil discussion with someone who disagrees with you is a commendable iniative. However, I dont think you succeeded in this very well. You attack the points of your opponents in a way where you dont take them seriously, pretend like theyre not strong points without adding any proper refutation and you attack the feelings behind them. I think this makes you sound more condescending than you intended. Because this was stated to not be the intention, id like to encourage everyone to keep the discussion civil ^^

Secondly, I think the differences between fiesta and the other masterminds are larger than you make it seem.
The difference where fiesta gets rewarded for doing something which punishes all other masterminds, is quite fundamental and a cause of a lot of frustration amongst players. Id argue this difference alone separates fiesta from all other masterminds to a degree where it stands alone.
There is also a second very important difference between fiesta and other masterminds. As fiesta, the bonus gold/income you receives fluctuates wildly with how the specific game is going. The closest to this we have in masterminds is castle/cartel of which the benefit/drawback scales with game length, which is variable, but id argue for fiesta the fluctuations affects the benefit of picking this mastermind to a much more extreme degree. Because these fluctuations are very dependent on guessing in the early game, it makes it feel like youre not very in control when youre playing the game vs fiesta.

near cave
#

Fair points 👍 I agree that there's stuff that can get taken into discussion. About the condescension Claim, well, I do in fact have a very different opinion on which it can be hard to formulate opinions seperated from facts. I do understand your point though and appreciate your honestity, I think your word tone in your reply worked out quite better than mine.

analog yarrow
#

Thirdly, I think your assessment that playing normally vs fiesta is the way to go might be partially incorrect.
Fundamentally, if we assume that both players are of an equal skill level, you can assume that you will leak similarly to the opponent. If you do, fiesta will get more out of it than you. If you leak less, the fiesta player is likely ahead in workers, which means you could still be at a disadvantage.
In practice, if you notice your opponent is playing fiesta (intentionally leaks wave 1), if you play normally, the fiesta player knows when you will send, and can plan accordingly to leak low amounts. Normally, this is beneficial, but it is detrimental vs a fiesta player. As such, the early game vs fiesta devolves into a guessing game. I am not of a high enough level to encounter this to a very high level in my own games, but ive seen higher level games (streams, replays and also nova cup) where people send on weird waves vs fiesta, but ive seen this much rarer vs other masterminds.
In fact, in high level games, you can usually predict the outcome of a game with a fiesta player in it from the opening waves alone. Did the fiesta player get good leaks early? They will win if the opponents play normally. Did they not? The opponents will likely win. The only times ive seen people win from a good early fiesta is with big long saves or suicide pushes, often into unexpected waves.
If you manage to get out of the early waves without feeding fiesta, you can absolutely play normally to just win however.

Fourthly, as someone with similar frustrations as Sir3 with fiesta, I absolutely started playing a lot of fiesta to figure out if there was something I was missing about the mastermind. Playing fiesta seemed to validate my opinions however, as it is much much easier to win with it if you get out of the early game unscathed (which seems to be mostly RNG).

#

Finally, I can only agree that hating and being frustrated about fiesta is not productive. However, ithat doesnt stop it from being less fun. It seems like a big fundamental flaw in this game. I love playing legion td2, and then i queue into fiesta, and win or lose, thats the last game ive played on that day. Its much harder to enjoy the game with fiesta in it for me personally.

The best way to avoid frustration about fiesta appears to be to just not play, which is a solution, but not the one Id hope for.

devout elbow
#

Playstyle bans at a rate of 1 person is probably not the best solution. I don’t think it’s awful though. It would make players feel better about playing, and it would give devs another data point to look into. EG if chaos gets banned in 90% of games despite being underpowered, then we might be looking at a rework…. Unfortunately you’ll just get people looking up opponent profile during wave 1 build phase, and banning their most played mastermind. You’d need a complete overhaul of the UI to hide player names until after bans if you even want a shot of making it work. A lot of change for a dubious gain (it might not be better at all).

Correct me if I’m wrong but I have to make a few assumptions here. I’m assuming you hate it when your teammate plays fiesta more than anything since it forces you into overbuilding to stop king from dying to your teammate’s stupidity. If this is your gripe, I don’t think you are alone. I think a lot of people have the same complaint and if that’s the case, I think improvements to fiesta are a much preferable solution than just banning it. This solution assumes a lot of people find it unfun. If most people like it the way it is, then this isn’t a good solution either. I personally would like to see those perpetual 50% fiesta leak players be much lower on the gold/power level score to more accurately reflect how badly they played. Majority of the playerbase probably are not intelligent enough to understand that they caused the loss even if they have most value and most workers.

near cave
#

@analog yarrow

Well, to get back into argumentation, on an income "scale" I definitely agree with you that fiesta differs in the way of when you obtain the gold, since it does not give you a "constant" income as the other masterminds do.

About my point to play regular vs Fiesta like any other Mastermind I think you partially misunderstood me. In your example you equal up the enemies "behaviour" and mine, (eg same leaks of which the enemy ofc profits more than me) which was not meant by that.

What I was talking about is, that if I sense an enemy playing very weak for certain waves I'll try to aim for a certain punch, this independend of if said person is a fiesta player or not. The Fiesta player usually only has a pretty easy game on guessing, if the opposing player is using autosends, since usually upon even small saves, the fiesta player gets into a gamble. The sending player can however confess to go into eco to not fall behind himself, while the fiesta player might hold, not profiting from any additional gold gain. Also worth noting, a fiesta player suffers harder from being starved, since a too big leak on him will cause an extreme Fallback, if he just continues pumping workers, ignoring the danger, often resultint in a leakspree, which ain't good for him.

I get your point of "increased RNG" though, but yet, I don't see the impact on a too heavy scale as you do. I've played both fiesta myself and have had fiesta in the opposing team and for my personal interpretation, I did not sense a too much difference, except for mildly increased aggression potential (aka workers) towards the player getting sended by said fiesta player, while the fiesta in earlier game is mostly also easier to break. A "glasscanon" player, to say. I (personally) see it as another "legit" source of RNG, similar to other masterminds / fighter selection, It's a high risk / reward race similar to Yolo, even though the mechanics behind that differ in a bigger way.

#

.
I guess in the end this remains to be a "matter of taste". Still I find it a pity, that you've having such a negative experience with that. Since for me, its honestly just the opposite ^^

The only thing I can 100% agree on is sui cross plays. I found these interesting for 1-2 times when I firstly encountered them, but after that, it's a pure matter of if your teamwork is able to figure out a good plan to compete against this. In Premade, this is usually pretty easy (if you've figured out the solution once), on SoloQ you're mostly lost. But in pure fun terms, this definitely changes the gameplay a lot into a direction, of which the usual gameplay of LTD2 surely was not intended to go into.

analog yarrow
deep magnet
# devout elbow Playstyle bans at a rate of 1 person is probably not the best solution. I don’t...

I equally hate fiesta whether my teammate or opponent is playing it. I actually probably hate it more when my opponent plays it but also hate when partner plays. It feels like a lot of coin flipping and I hate that I get punished for leaking my opponent. It just forces all 3 other players to play a completely different game similar to when you play against a duo that doesn’t build at all and one overbuilds (sui cross builds I think they call it). I never care if I win or lose those games. The entire game is just a shit show and no fun and completely different from “normal” ltd2 where all 4 players are trying to actually play defense

deep magnet
# analog yarrow Thirdly, I think your assessment that playing normally vs fiesta is the way to g...

Exactly this. Win or lose against or with fiesta, the games are very unfun. I usually log off not long after and wish I could actually just play the game but I can’t.

I’ve tried many strats with and against fiesta and nothing seems fun. People keep talking about beating fiesta and I could care less. It’s not about having a good strategy. It’s about getting to play the fucking game.

I don’t want to log into play chess and my opponent clicks a button that forces me to play checkers instead.

forest silo
#

I'd be happy to never play against Chaos again. I feel your pain.

deep magnet
near cave
devout elbow
#

The unholy alliance of game destroying goodness

#

this is almost as bad as coalition governments

wispy plank
#

When I first started playing legion I only played fiesta. It taught me leak thresholds, openers, splits, how to get optimal positioning to maximize worker push without leaking in the red/orange%, when I'm weak or strong, shifting, mind games, etc. Most importantly, how my lane affects the other 3 lanes.

Good players are aware of their lane and who they're sending to. Great players can track all 4 lanes, like who is getting starved, who just sent their mythium, who is getting suicided into, etc.

Fiesta is literally the best mastermind in my opinion that forced me to understand high level legion. Without fiesta I most likely would still be in bronze overbuilding. Fiesta is extremely fun and satisfying especially when you leak 1 creep.

Being upset with fiesta is like a boxer being upset against a wrestler using grappling to win in MMA. Legion is like MMA, there are many styles. Learn takedown defense and adapt, which I think is the whole point of the fun, figuring out the puzzle towards victory.

That being said fuck chaos.

amber warren