nova cup maybe time to revisit d1/d2

[iron needle]

can only be intimdating for players thinking about signing up when is potentially ur first game in the tournament

bottom 4 teams are so much closer to d3

and bottom teams easily in d1 without a 700 elo difference

[mystic lion]

wrong discord but feel free to bring it back up at the end of the year in the tournament discord. We will take some time to gather feedback for potential changes for next season

[iron needle]

what do you mean there is even a tournaments flag for suggestion?

dunno how this can be the wrong discord for it seems very silly otherwise but could be good to update it for nov

[echo inlet]

Whats the suggestion if I may ask

[iron needle]

to revisit the how the divisions are done to see if it can be improved

[echo inlet]

I think you can understand the need for every div to have specific amount of teams to get proper brackets. You want more divisions with 8 teams? a div with 32 teams with bo1's?

[iron needle]

no just for things to be shuffled - could have more teams in d1 that would even it out more to start with as an initial idea

especially since everyone in d1 now will have at least a legend or legend and 2600 player

[echo inlet]

This is signups sorted by elo. As you can expect the difference is largest at the top, thats normal. If you have 20% per division then div 1 range would be way too huge. especially since its streamed games would be super boring I think

[iron needle]

they pick and choose the games to stream anyway so you would still go for the better ones and it will still be very elite since "legends" in it. but for d2 if you and your friend got to 2150/2200 and signed up being thrown in against the top of d2 which could be in d1 pretty easily is no fun

and a worse expereince and probably offputting for them to sign up again - potential to have the opposite effect but doubtful

[echo inlet]

I mean you could extend the logic and say youve reached 2300 and have to play against 3300 in div 1. I dont see how thats any better

[iron needle]

2300 wont get into d1 at all though?

[echo inlet]

If you can read graphs then 2300 is at around the cutoff for 16 team div 1 if everyone wouldve checked in

[iron needle]

2600 + 2800 is probably the minimum to get into d1 - which is what the top of d2 is

for this month - maybe more teams sign up if it's slightly changed? and if you dont go with the chart, take the 4 top teams of d2 - would any of them look amiss in d1?

[native wedge]

I think something to consider is that this month div 1 is weaker than usual, last month the lowest seed would be 3k this month

[iron needle]

it's only when you get to the lower half of a top 16 it falls into 2500 div 1 comparing teams

its something to be aware of especially if other players mention it to cause it will impact future teams signing ups

[native wedge]

Personally, I would be more in favor of making div 2 a similar format to div1 rather than increasing div 1

[iron needle]

doesn't affect me anyway lol but wanted to highlight that this will become more of a problem if it's not really looked at and there's many ways to do sligthly different tournament formats

dunno which way to do best, something for you guys to figure out as long as you reliase there is a problem occuring

[native wedge]

I disagree with the premise that a problem is coming; if we see a similar trend in the following months sure, but imo it's a one-off

[iron needle]

wasnt in the same last month

and the one prior

[native wedge]

The 8 seed in our last cup was quacker/slickins which is a team that is much much stronger than anything in div 2 and would have a 3k seed.

[iron needle]

(yes there has been a big difference of the two for a little while now)

[echo inlet]

We lowered div 1 elo range because the games were giga boring and it wasnt a great showing on streams. Id rather have this than go back to that

[iron needle]

i understand its getting the balance right for those in d2 as well though maybe seeing if some extra teams can be added that keep the quality / change of format for d2, many ways to look into it

[balmy garnet]

I never played since i wanna get decent skill before playing. But maybe would be cool to have a couple of divisions based on ELO like sub 2k 2-2.5k 2.5-3k

something like this

but this will prolly result people staying like 2499 or something so not that great either

Maybe for divisions outside of the ones that get the money or smth

so div3 and under it have potential to have something like this maybe

[echo inlet]

If you wanna lower ranges across the board then ye we can just make more divions and make all of them 8 team GSL style brackets I suppose

[mystic lion]

I mean exactly what I said. Leave it as a suggestion, when we ask for your feedback and ideas at the end of the year.

[iron needle]

an elo bracket for each division could be good but than you could struggle filling in all the divisions to

[iron needle]

thats a bit rude since it's a suggestion based on tournaments and we're all being ammicable here

[echo inlet]

I dont see why we couldnt shift every div towards 8 teams besides more arrangements from tourney staff I guess

[iron needle]

i guess it could be an issue still of making sure each division is full + prize pools if there were more divisons to

along with general more work on challonge

[mystic lion]

I don't know whats rude, if I ask you to bring it up again later when we want to gather feedback from players directly on the tournament discord.

[echo inlet]

Divs are automatically made after checkins are complete afaik. Its just some manual labour to put them on challonge + it will make everyone play potentetially 3 games on saturday instead of 2

[iron needle]

could be good especially if it fixes some of the discrepancy occuring atm

i guess it was like d1 previously you ignore the first round of nova cup d2 as well since you know that in general the higher seeds will just stomp the lower seeds with maybe one exception if something crazy happens

[gilded trout]

d2 has same problem as d1 now but its not on main stream

[iron needle]

guess we pretend no problem for more months

[near kraken]

I think the feedback has definitely been heard

I know for my part, I don't usually participate in stuff like this because I don't like structuring my free time. Kind of anti-commitment there in a sense

But if I were to participate, and I saw people in my pool that were several hundred ahead, I'd be intimidated somewhat

Either way though, I know the organizers and everyone involved are going to take a look at the data + suggestions regarding it

[mystic lion]

Yeah, like I said, we want to gather feedback and ideas at the end of the year. And we want to use the tournament discord for it because there are quite a lot of players that are not on this discord and only on the tourney dc. So to get the opinion from as many people as possible, we want to use the tourney dc.

To answer some stuff you already said:
More divisions will result in exponentially more work for us, so we want to keep them at around 16 teams. But we can definitely do something like add a 6th div and let div 2 adapt the format of div 1 (8 teams double elim day 1) and have 2 "competitive" divisions and 4 "chill" divisions (with 16 teams single elim), or something similar.

If you have any other ideas for formats etc. keep them in mind and bring them back up in december, so everyone can participate in the discussion.

[balmy garnet]

You see several hundred points ahead even in ladder at least for me. The highest i've played it was 2 legends and i'm 2.4k

[latent yew]

Its so wierd to me that div2 cries about the issues div1 had the entire time while they could climb to div1 to solve it

Instead of throwing the issue on div1 again, which cant climb to div0

[iron needle]

b4 wasnt it the lowest in d1 would have fit in d2 easily

now that equalribium is the other way around when you have 3k~ elo players in d2

[gilded trout]

whos the 3k elo players in d2

[latent yew]

@iron needle i am unsure what you are saying? Are you disagreeing with my Statement?

Also i havent seen any 3k Player in div2 but was used to see 700-800 elo differences in in seeding for div1 before the change

[iron needle]

Yeap and now that difference is applied to div 2 which is an issue and last nova you had icoo / shea / otyka that have all been very close to 3k - shea 3k last season rest 2.9 this season, not including brotcherboy and valas who have both been one win away from 2.9k

div 2 has the issue div 1 had previously

why i like boone's suggestion

think it's better to have players of a closer skill gap than a slim chance of an upset

[latent yew]

U mean having div 2 be 8 teams aswell?

I wouldnt mind that

Its just that i would mind making div1 16 teams again

But every other div smaller? Why not

[iron needle]

the top 4 from div 2 could fit in div 1 - more than that it becomes a big elo gap and the first games of it would be boring

[latent yew]

Just depends on organizers since its more work

I wouldnt change div1 due to div2 crying

[iron needle]

nah no one has really said to change div 1

other than maybe havin more teams in it

[latent yew]

That is a change?

[iron needle]

small change but even then it is hasnt really been said til now

[latent yew]

Idk, imo div1 concept is really good as it is rn

Div2 feels the pain that div1 felt, i know it sucks

But tbh, div1 is live on stream and imo should just be the top of the top with the best possible format

So if someone in div2 doesnt Like their situation-> climb to div1, we love fresh meat

See it as motivation

[iron needle]

not really the point though tighting gaps of divisions mean better quality games all around (without a queue timer) means new players may stick around more when they enter them instead of facing top of their divsion straight away and just getting stomped to not learn anything

[scenic ledge]

New player doesnt really enter div 2

[iron needle]

bottom of div 2 can often be newish players or new to the nova cup for first time

[scenic ledge]

Not at this point of the year for sure

[lavish wind]

12 teams doesn't really work, it needs to be a number that halves into 2 (4/8/16/32)

[scenic ledge]

Anyone can be new to nova cup, aatrocity was new to div 1 this month

Ideally every bracket would have tight elo ranges, but it quickly gets out of scope for schnerd

[lavish wind]

Think as Green says, fewer teams in D2 could work (e.g. make it 8 teams as well) but I would definitely be against increasing teams in D1 back to 16.

The only argument against 8 teams in D2 etc is that it adds administrative burden on the organisers. If we get to the stage where brackets are automated then it should be doable.

[scenic ledge]

Penny, what was the elo gap for d1 this month?

[lavish wind]

D1 had a 433 Elo gap this month

[gilded trout]

not too bad previous format had like close to 1k didnt it

[lavish wind]

For reference, here's the signup sheet - if D1 was 16 teams, there would be a 970 Elo gap between 1 and 16

[scenic ledge]

Few of those bottom 8 teams can maybe put up a fight but thats prob 5-6 round one matchups that are auto win

[iron needle]

yeah the top 4 from d2 could

but then it is awkward numbers of 12

which would some teams having a free first round

personally like the idea of a swiss tournament that goes into knockout to find out the winner

schnerd said he doesnt care til next year anyway

[river elbow]

lol I am not trying to get shit on by drach and lucy in the first round

I am too new to be in Div 1, I dont even have a border

[hard reef]

I didn't read the whole discussion, so I'm not sure what point is being made here. But this 1k elo gap exists in other divisions. I've seen it in div 2, and it felt quite unfair. I rarely see any interesting games during the first two rounds in div 2/div 3. It's usually just the middle match (or middle 2 matches) that is usually pretty fair, but otherwise, I mostly saw stomps because of the huge rating difference.

[gilded trout]

maybe it would be a genuine question, do ppl think that a 500 elo diff between 3k and 2.5 is same between 2.5 and 2k

[river elbow]

It’s not that people think it’s the same but 500-750 elo dif is substantial no matter what your elo is

I think the brackets of 8 for div 1 and 2 make the most sense from a fairness perspective though I imagine the problem is going to bleed Into 3 pretty quickly

[frigid sleet]

I cant understand why brackets aren't done by elo (perhaps TBD right before they're created to prevent gaming of the system) and higher rated teams get a by on the first/second round as necessary

[lavish wind]

They are done by elo

[frigid sleet]

sorry, as in, brackets done by elo numbers (b1 3k+, b2 2600-3k, b3 2k-2600 etc etc)

not by numbers (top 8 in b1, next 16 in b2 etc etc)

[lavish wind]

Oh because ranges change constantly so your brackets in January will be wildly different to your brackets in November

[latent yew]

Just make a cast rambling for 3h how every1 sucks for not hiting 3k in january

[iron needle]

what's a bigger skill gap, 2100 to 2600 or 2800 to 3300??

2100 to 2600 is still people learning mechanics, fundamentals and practicising them along with being hugely inconsistent

2800 to 3300 is mostly about consistency - at this stage people have developed their playstyle and generally know roughly how others play in this bracket

[hard reef]

I don't think it matters which one is the worst. They are both bad to have. Arguing that one is better than the other is not solving the issue.

[iron needle]

not arguing it, just saying that if you have reached 2800 you have been "top of the game" and people complaining that x player got 2800 is stupid - they have earned that legend badge by playing (sometimes 1000s of games) but that relates to the consistency issue

either way little billy and jean at 2200 should not be having to go against a seed of 2800 round 1 that is the biggest issue it simly is not good gameplay or entertainment for anyone

[scenic ledge]

The only true fix to that is hard elo cutoffs

[gilded trout]

U would be surprised

[iron needle]

fix for it is the 8 team divisions

[scenic ledge]

Penny literally posted how div2 with 8 ppl would be 2.8 vs 2.3

[iron needle]

read properly

[scenic ledge]

It better than what happened, but not a true fix

[iron needle]

8 team divisions as boone said

and penny just showed what d1 would be with 16 teams

🤦‍♂️

[scenic ledge]

If u split that 16 into two sets of 8

U have 2878 vs 2362 if you feel like thats good then 👍

[iron needle]

yes then it is just the lower 3 teams but better than what it is now still

2884 vs 2156 october

[scenic ledge]

Better but not a true fix

[iron needle]

and if you had hard elo brackets then you probably wont get enough teams

[scenic ledge]

Also true

Not a easy problem to solve

[iron needle]

well it kind is, 8 team divisions solves it a lot better - stream lines the divisions so they're all similar to so less confusion

[scenic ledge]

In your idea, would it be 8 teams with same bracket format as div1? Or just 8 man single elim?

[hard reef]

Btw, last time I played nova cup (or maybe the time before, I don't remember), there was a 600 rating gap between 4 consecutive teams in div 2. So you can still have huge gaps with smaller divs.

[mystic lion]

It was like this in the past but this system has way more problems than the current one

[mystic lion]

Its exactly the same

[iron needle]

it is ignorant ti think so just because the numbers match up

nothing matters anyway since it wont change to next year and i expect that this time next year game will be dead

[gilded trout]

would expect nothing less from our resident ass talker

[scenic ledge]

100 elo is 100 elo in theory, it gets harder and harder to quantify why the player thats higher elo is better, but they are still 100 elo better.

Prob worth doing your own research into how various elo systems work since its not that simple of a topic

[scenic ledge]

@iron needle Also can u answer my question?

[iron needle]

i answered this awhile ago

even before you asked

[scenic ledge]

So u want all 8 team brackets to be double elim day 1 like div1?

[iron needle]

do i really have to keep repeat it?

it is that or look at other formats that maybe better

[scenic ledge]

Ok

[mystic lion]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

[iron needle]

in terms of chess then they are all "grandmasters" if legend, the weight of the numbers in legion especially can also be amount of games played to a certain degree and as mentioned again for players above that threshold it is about being consistent. how do you get consistent? play a lot and learn.
2k-2.5 or even 2.3k to 2.8k is much more diverse in terms of skill - players that dont play as much, players that play a lot and dont learn, newer players still improving but having certain mechanics down well

numbers dont show everything and realistically u should know this

[mystic lion]

Well if you say so, then it must be right

[iron needle]

think it is kinda obvious anyway that anything other than d1 doesnt really matter so

i am also not always right just not naive and ignorant enough i guess that anything other than d1 is a joke and mostly ignored

[hard reef]

For you. You're not everyone that matters though.

[iron needle]

if this was a d1 issue theyd be looking at changin already

since its d2 it can wait

[hard reef]

it's an issue in d1 though... what are you even talking about?

[latent yew]

@iron needle u have any idea how d1 Format got changed?

[iron needle]

d1 is fine atm and it is already mentioned in this thread why, and how d1 was changed

[gilded trout]

He goes in circles

[river elbow]

The problem kinda feels more like a lack of consistent number of participants at the post 2k elo problem than a bracketing problem, which isn’t really the tournament organizers faults

[latent yew]

D1 was changed after i(and others) made suggestions how to change it for a while. It is changed by participants pushing for it.
Thats why i dont understand the "noone cares about d2" mentality. Why should i advocate for solutions that would make div1 worse to fix div2?
The participants themselves can push for solutions.
And yes, div1 simply is more important and is cast on the Main stream....
As mentioned, people in div2 could just climb to play div1?
Div1 cant climb to play in another division

Making div2 8 teams will just push the issue on d3.

[gilded trout]

yeah it took months of ppl discussing it and they only implemented it at the end of the year

and everyone can type since anyone can join the div 1 discord. im part of all 5 divisions on disc

[iron needle]

just climb to d1 isnt a solution at all and an 8 team division 2 wouldnt affect d1? and yeah d1 is important but it shouldnt mean other divisions get ignored. since the solution is aleady there for d1 it wouldnt be as time consuming to implement it down for other divisions

and it's why all divs probably should become 8 teams etc and have the same ruleset to prevent any confusion

or maybe someone that has won d1 once shouldnt be able to participate in d2? (cant remember when shea when d1 think it was a LONG time ago now) but it is pretty stupid that can happen

[near kraken]

Not for nothing, but "most people" are Gold or lower

Splitting hairs here with the "is 2.2 vs 2.8 a larger skill gap than 2.8 vs 3.3"

Every single one of them is LEAGUES ahead of most players

Now, in the context of "olympics" competitions, those minute differences become the world. Because that's the context you're in

Generally speaking though, don't frame this from a "common man vs elitist" because that's NOT what this is

This is people not wanting to watch the minor league baseball when the major league is on

and you think it's unfair someone "good enough" to be in major league, occasionally drops to minor league

most people aren't in either

[iron needle]

most of gold is probably bots anyway, and really i would rather those that are good enough to play in a better division to do it but it is an issue with the way the format is for d2 and lower

streamlining the whole thing would just be better anyway rather than one format for one division and different set up for others

[near kraken]

most of the higher div's want it to be the way it is

idk, it doesn't matter to me either way, I don't participate in these

I just disagree with your reasoning. But, it's just my opinion

[iron needle]

it is literally making it so it's the same as d1

maybe just go ask all the players think many in d2 and d3 would like a loser bracket to so they can come back

[hard reef]

that's a bullshit claim though

[iron needle]

it is a bullshit claim indeed to say most of the playerbase is gold when we dont even know how many are actual players

[hard reef]

this is easy to check though, check the team list and see how many are gold from the last cup

however, I don't think there was a single bot in there

[iron needle]

that doesnt prove how many of the actual playerbase is gold etc that would be from a devs point to provide

[hard reef]

the playerbase has nothing to do with nova cup though

[iron needle]

people signing up doesnt equate to the amount of players for certain thesholds

it was something dimi mentioned

so I replied to that

[hard reef]

there could be millions of players in gold, if they don't play in nova cup, it doesn't change anything

[iron needle]

it was a reply to your fellow community helper

"most people are gold or lower"

[hard reef]

fucking hell, this discussion seems to be quite far from its initial topic if this isn't even about nova cup anymore...

[iron needle]

...

[gilded trout]

i guess u can take a poll of d2/d3 players if they want to seperate their own divisions into more

did you play in recent cups?

i personally dont care about d3 since they dont have a cash prize and seems to be more on the for fun side but i can see how it can be troubling for d2

i think new players around the 2300 elo bracket have more to worry about in their gameplay over instead thinking about tourneys

[mystic lion]

For everyone who might have missed it

[river elbow]

Unless I just don’t see it, the tournament discord doesn’t have a suggestions thread like this, which is undermining your goal pretty hard.

[uncut linden]

At the end of the tournament season you just sorta go in the other discord and yell

[grand kettle]

I won d3 in a nail biter of series — every round went to game 3, every game was close.
Next month in d2 got owned by someone 600 elo higher and 1200 peak elo higher. Was not fun at all, and I won’t be signing up for another nova cup unless the games are close.

[iron needle]

yh fuck that great system

[iron needle]

but it is fiiiiiiiiiiine

[near kraken]

You need to post at least 40 more times in this thread before we'll take it seriously, I think

[frigid sleet]

40.. more... Times.....

[near kraken]

I admit, that was definitely not good behavior on my part

[frigid sleet]

Any other advice? Perhaps we should ping staff and helpers by role or individually?

This thread is full of emotions because it can be frustrating entering a tournament with brackets and then being completely outclassed

[near kraken]

That's true, and fair

[frigid sleet]

It doesn't need fuel added to the fire, the fire is already raging

[iron needle]

just wait bro next year

[gilded trout]

lil mans acting like waiting till end of year is discrimination when thats the same exact treatment d1 got

[iron needle]

no one cares what you say lil boy

just no point in waiting when there is already a solution in place