You should have to approve playing fiesta with someone just like you do with no build.

[mossy crag]

What you're saying is not related to fiesta. What you want is having to approve playing poorly (or what you think is playing poorly). That's unreasonable.

[cloud jewel]

Fiesta isn't just leak as much as you want and your partner carry you.

[mossy crag]

Exactly. If the fiesta player is good, they should be the one carrying you (because they would have more eco from the fiesta). What you don't seem to like is just having "bad" teammates. It's unrelated to fiesta.

[cloud jewel]

I've rarely encountered a good fiesta player in a match that I didn't queue with someone.

There are way too many bad fiesta players

[mossy crag]

Are you sure it's not just confirmation bias though?

[cloud jewel]

No

[mossy crag]

Because I don't have the same experience at all

[cloud jewel]

I've rarely won with a fiesta player

[mossy crag]

Then maybe you are the issue. Maybe you should learn how to play with a fiesta teammate

[cloud jewel]

The game I was just in, the guy was the highest player in the game. He leaked 94% wave 1

leaked wave 3 as well

[mossy crag]

I don't see the issue

[cloud jewel]

He was on the bottom of the board the entire game

fiesta isn't meant to leak 94%

fiesta you are meant to pro leak

or you lose more money than you gain

[mossy crag]

No, but if you get snailed, you can get screwed. If it's during the first 3 waves, it's not that much of an issue though

[cloud jewel]

he lost twice as much to fiesta than he was making

[mossy crag]

But wasn't that just one bad teammate? Seems like you should try #venting instead of #1062334911350046780 here

[cloud jewel]

It's happened over 50 times to me

I think it's an issue that if you don't want to play with a random fiesta player, you shouldn't have to

What about games where both ppl choose fiesta?

maybe at least make it so you can see if your teammate chose fiesta so you can try to plan accordingly?

[mossy crag]

I mean, just to show you how ridiculous your suggestion is:
You should have to approve playing castle with someone just like you do with no build. I've never won a game with a castle teammate, they are always bottom score and have no eco, even after 10. It should not be available for solo queue.

And you can replace castle with any mastermind you don't like or don't know how to play with

[cloud jewel]

That doesn't prove anything

no, fiesta people leak on purpose

it's completely different

[mossy crag]

And leaking on purpose can be beneficial

even when not playing fiesta

[cloud jewel]

not if it's too much

leak 95% on wave 8 or 10

that's game ending

[mossy crag]

No necessarily

[cloud jewel]

no but it can be

[mossy crag]

What's your elo?

just curious

[cloud jewel]

currently 1866

because I'm down a bit

[mossy crag]

Ok, you've got much to learn then. Fiesta can be very strong, even when leaking red for the 3 first waves

[cloud jewel]

It can be

but it can lose games

everyone knows this

[mossy crag]

As all other masterminds can

[cloud jewel]

Castle can't lose games

[mossy crag]

it does

[cloud jewel]

it can only improve your situation

if you lose early game, maybe

[mossy crag]

That's plain wrong. Castle can make you lose a game pretty badly too

I've seen it way too many times

[cloud jewel]

how?

how can it "make" you lose?

95% leaks can 100% lose games

[mossy crag]

Getting snowballed by better eco early

easy loss

or losing early

[cloud jewel]

how does that make you lose

[mossy crag]

You don't understand how eco can make you lose? 😮

[cloud jewel]

getting more income wave 10 only helps you catch up if you are behind

no I don't understand how castle makes you lose in that situation

like you said, the same thing can happen with any other mastermind

that isn't specific to castle

[mossy crag]

Imagine I pick greed, and I have 250 eco on 10. Imagine I played castle instead, and because I can't snowball as much, I have 150 on 10

You see how it can make you lose?

45 income won't cut it

And it's the same with every mastermind. The issue is not the mastermind, it's the player.

So, your suggestion basically is: I don't want to play with what I consider to be bad players

[cloud jewel]

i get that game play effects it

but I also don't see how picking any other mastermind than fiesta can be compared to ppl thinking it's okay to leak 95% as fiesta

fiesta is only successful if you are making income

not losing it

and you make your teammate lose income too with big leaks

[mossy crag]

You've never leaked 95% in a game? Even when not fiesta?

Shit happens, it's not related to fiesta

[cloud jewel]

I don't leak big like that until later in the game

[mossy crag]

You don't try to leak 95% when playing fiesta

[cloud jewel]

not on wave 1-4

[mossy crag]

it happens because you failed

it's not because of fiesta

[cloud jewel]

but I argue with players all the time

that's my point

they don't understand

that you aren't supposed to leak

I get told, well I'm supposed to leak

not like that

they tell me, it's fine because I'm making income

[mossy crag]

Then, as I said before, maybe you're the issue. If you are the one arguing with your teammates all the time...

[cloud jewel]

no they aren't

I don't argue with them all the time

rarely do I argue with anyone

[mossy crag]

Ok, I'll try to explain it to you. When you pick fiesta, you have no bonus income. So you HAVE to leak to get something back. If you leak less than 40%, you'll most likely be ahead. And if your teammate knows you're playing fiesta, they can also try to play knowing that there will be long waves. Which means that leaking will be beneficial to both you AND your teammate. But... if it always happened like that, it would be the most OP thing in the game. So what's happening, you introduce the player skill in the equation. If you can't guarantee that you leak under 40% to get an eco lead and win with that, then, fiesta becomes balanced. Which is what we have.

But if you argue with your fiesta teammate that they should not leak, you're the one in the wrong here.

Because you're screwing them over

if they don't leak, they're fucked

The issue is that you don't get how to play with a fiesta teammate. You should try to learn that instead of focusing on "fiesta bad". It's not easy to do though, I'm in the same position with castle.

What I would suggest is playing fiesta yourself. That's the best way to learn how it works.

[cloud jewel]

I've played fiesta

I'm pretty good with it

I'm gonna go talk to Shea

hugs

[limpid knoll]

I made a post about this a few months ago and ppl went mad against me for suggesting the same. It is indeed related to fiesta and how it incites people to feed. I 100% support your suggestion, fiesta, unlike any other mode, favors taking risks that have huge impact on fiesta's teammate.

[limpid knoll]

I think we all know how fiesta works. In order to have a good game with a fiesta teammate you have to make changes in the way you play that have no common measure with what other game modes do. It is, by very far, the mode that changes every other players' gameplays the most.

[mossy crag]

Maybe it's because my playstyle works better with a fiesta teammate usually, but I have to change it much more to adapt to a castle player than a fiesta player. So I think it's depending on the player. Which means that it's once again a player issue, not a mastermind playstyle issue.

[random bay]

mate you're rated 1800, how can you be considered good at ti, I dont get why people dont listen to players significantly higher rated than them and assume they know best

[cloud jewel]

There are plenty of high levels who agree with me about bad fiesta players being a huge impact.

[mossy crag]

Everybody should agree that bad fiesta players have a huge impact. And I do agree with this. But the issue is still not fiesta. You can even generalize and say that bad players have a huge impact...

I prefer a fiesta player leaking 80% than a non-fiesta player leaking 80% though

[dapper crescent]

why are all the green nicknames acting like they're the only ones whose opinions should matter and everyone below 2500 elo doesn't understand the game's basic mechanics?

[mossy crag]

Nice ad hominem

[limpid knoll]

That wasn't a ad hominem, don't use words you don't understand.

Btw i'm 2600+ and I think fiesta should have a consent/approval option, so please close this debate

[limpid knoll]

And I have to disagree with that, having a bad fiesta partner has amuch bigger impact than let's say bad greed partner.

[mossy crag]

It was though. Their argument was targeted at me, not at any position in the debate. That's literally what an ad hominem is.

[mossy crag]

So, you really prefer having someone leaking 80% when they are not fiesta than someone leaking 80% when they are fiesta? Why? The one leaking with fiesta will at least get some gold to compensate. The other doesn't.

[mossy crag]

oh ok, so you just wanted to troll, sorry, you can keep going then

[brisk thorn]

If a player is equally bad across the board (just a bad player) they'll very likely leak a lot more when they're trying to leak (fiesta) than when they're trying to NOT leak (greed). Implying that they would leak the same amount in both cases doesn't seem terribly good-faith.

Just seems like ignoring an important part of the issue to steer the discussion.

[limpid knoll]

It's a totally different case, as SirGuySW said you wouldn't leak the same amount when you're trying to leak than when you're trying to hold. You're arguing in bad faith, yet you call me a troll...

[limpid knoll]

And nobody attacked you directly, fowst was making a point about high elo people in general.

[limpid knoll]

I was referring to this "you're low elo, your opinin doesn't matter" debate

[mossy crag]

Which was not my point at all. So, as you say, you (and SirGuySW) are talking about something else.

[mossy crag]

They attacked "green names" in a discussion where I was the only "green name". It feels pretty directed to me.

[mossy crag]

which has nothing to do with the discussed topic

[brisk thorn]

Again, try not to take it personally. This is not the only disscussion taking place in this community and you are not the only 'green name' participating. Your '80%' point didn't really seem on-target and fowst was clearly frustrated (in multiple topics) by 'green named' users shutting down or derailing topics.

The recurring point in these discussions is bad fiesta players have more impact than bad (anything else) players. The counter point is over and over, "the problem isn't fiesta, it's just 'bad players'" implying that a 'bad player' trying not to leak will somehow leak comparably to a 'bad player playing fiesta' trying to leak (including the fiesta gold making up the difference between the two).

[mossy crag]

But you can't prove that there is a correlation between the amount leaked and the mastermind played by a same bad player. I've played with players leaking 70+ for the 8 first waves while not even being fiesta. Would they have leaked more while playing fiesta? I don't know. But if they leaked the same amount while playing fiesta, the situation wouldn't be as bad as it was.
And if you consider how impactful a bad player is. For me, a bad castle player, overbuilding way too much and being super low eco is much worse than a fiesta leaking 80+ all the time. Because of how much pressure I'll receive from it while not expecting it. But maybe it's just because of my playstyle. And maybe fiesta just doesn't work well with Funkslice's playstyle. But then, once again, is it an issue with fiesta? No, it's an issue with Funkstyle's playstyle then.

I won't go out there trying to stop players from playing castle because I'm stupidly bad with a castle teammate. I should learn to play with a castle teammate instead.

[brisk thorn]

But you can't prove that there is a correlation between the amount leaked and the mastermind played by a same bad player
Uh, full stop I guess. If we can't agree that players who are TRYING to leak will leak more than when they are trying to NOT leak I guess we're at an impass. Bit like saying your average shooter aiming at a target is just as likely to hit it as when they're firing in random directions. ...

I mean, are we talking about players playing their first few games and don't understand the mechanics and will do the same regardless of what legion they pick or are we talking about people who do understand the basics and can actually play the game?

[mossy crag]

The first one I guess. Otherwise, they wouldn't be leaking 80+ every wave

[brisk thorn]

😂 That has not been my experience. I guess I misunderstood the topic. I'd like to apologize to you, Irydion, to the OP, Funkslice, and to any others offended by my misunderstanding. Please excuse me. 🤣

[limpid knoll]

Criticizing your ideas on the topic that is being debated is not ad hominem... 🙄

And indeed, you're completely ignoring the incentive to leak, you talk about fiesta as if leaking was something completely independant to the mode and just happening randomly. Your interactions with everyone on this thread display a clear lack of good faith, i'll stop discussing with you here...

[chrome raptor]

If you wanted to open with oathbraker and go 5 workers but your team decides to go fiesta, you can no longer play the way you wanted, so my team dictates my playstyle?? That's the same as going lock in seedling telling your team you are going full and he should hold your leaks. Do that and you will get a lot of angry teammates because you are forcing them to change their playstyle same thing with fiesta you just don't say anything. I like playing and having teammates play fiesta but it should be approved

[mossy crag]

You always have to adapt to what your teammate is doing. It's not something specific to fiesta. And they have to do the same too.

If everyone in the team plays like they are alone, it's usually a bad sign...

[hazy imp]

If we're going to throw fancy terms around that nobody in actual conversations outside of the deep seedy underbelly of the internet actually uses, we could consider "Slippery Slope."

Years ago, it was Full Eco that was the boogeyman. It was NEVER a good strategy. It was NEVER complicated to beat. But people didn't like it (I am one of those people), so we made it potentially actionable to do it without full consent of your team.

Months ago, it was keeping Auto-Send on that was the boogeyman. It was NEVER a good strategy. It was NEVER complicated to beat. But people didn't like it (I was NOT one of those people), so we made it votable on whether you would be incentivized to use Auto Send.

Yesterday, it was full bankers that were the boogeyman. It was NEVER a good strategy. It was NEVER complicated to beat. But people didn't like it (I've been on both sides of this one), so we stealth-nerfed it in Classic where it was the most problematic.

Today, it's Fiesta that is the boogeyman. It's NEVER a good strategy. It's NOT complicated to beat. But people don't like it (I'm net neutral), and now we're calling for action against it.

What's going to be the boogeyman tomorrow? Grarl-into-w2egg? Cash-out into a 6w crusher? Green names using too many words in their posts?

We can't just keep changing the game because a couple of y'all don't like it. You can never please everyone, and sooner or later you have to realize if YOU always have the issues, maybe YOU are the minority that we simply cannot please.

[frail glen]

Cash out soul gate is the next boogeyman thanks

[brisk thorn]

🤣

Green names using too many words in their posts?
Pretty sure that boogeyman came and left a few weeks ago.
We can't just keep changing the game because a couple of y'all don't like it.
This is the suggestions forum. Players come here to 'suggest' ideas they think could improve the game. If 'we' don't like suggestions being posted in #1062334911350046780 perhaps 'we' should rename the forum to something more appropriate, like suggestions-but-dont-post-ideas-to-improve-the-game.
¯_(ツ)_/¯

[frail glen]

I think #changes-the-devs-could-make-so-i-specifically-win-more would also work for a forum rename

[brisk thorn]

Along with an @StagnationBrigade role (wear it with pride) for the users who routinely and aggressively antagonize and troll suggestions. 👍 We're making real changes now.

[woven shell]

I feel like I'm usually highest Eco when I play castle but I play pretty aggressive at times

[ember stone]

Fiesta is the biggest reason I've stopped playing again. It completely ruins solo games when a 2.4k player tries to run it against a top 50 player. I can look through my past games but I did the math a week ago and it was a 24% win rate whether it was my solo teammate running it or 1 of the solo enemies. If fiesta is not in a broken state it feels unhealthy for solo queue. I think the random unit roles already add plenty of variance and way less playstyles should have been added. We all know the hell we went thorough with the early balancing of the new playstyles and now they just made greed the best again anyways with castle and cartel being viable.

[mossy crag]

Fiesta has a 52.61% win rate above 2.4k right now. It's the second highest winrate (first if you only take into account playstyles with enough pick rate).

[signal pelican]

FYI legion lord only shows the data from the selected rank, not the ranks above.

[mossy crag]

Then it's for 2.4 only. Which doesn't change much considering Not a Gnome was talking about this rank anyway...

[signal pelican]

ye just saying 😄 didnt read the discussion. Also here is proof #1019243156333658202 message

[hazy imp]

I never said you couldn't give suggestions or feedback. Make 9,001 suggestions daily if you really want to. Continue to libel green names as "aggressively antagonizing / trolling" you if you want to. I certainly won't stop you.

All I'm saying is that "certain people" keep harping on the same talking points in the suggestions. Over. And over. And over. And LOTS of different people - including devs! - keep telling you answers you don't want to hear.

Something something insanity, something something different results.