#Is it possible for Arena FPS Shooters to get a comeback and get popularized again?

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

grizzled solstice
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In my opinion I think Arena FPS games are so underrated compared to BR's problem is they're just not popularized so I think it would be cool to see another Arena's FPS game! :D

red steppe
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As much as I would love to see them come back, I doubt it would ever happen

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Kids seem to be the main audience for a lot of these mainstream game developers

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And I’m pretty sure they would complain about it being too “hard”

wanton palm
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quake live 2 plz

vestal dock
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no quake or quake clone will ever be popular

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arena fps in its purest form is not a fun experience for any new player

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the first 30-50 hours of any game are meant to be fun

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in afps, the first 30-50 first are purely overwhelming

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a new player has no idea what weapons he has, what is going on, why his weapons do no damage or why there are people flying around the map

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the biggest thing from what i've seen in newcomers trying quake or clones are the weapons

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in no other genre of games you have more than 2 so vastly differently weapons in your hand at the same time

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that you can switch in the middle of a fight as you please

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learning every single one of the 12 weapons takes time, and when to use them properly even more so

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and sadly that part is quintessential for afps, so it's very hard for someone to make an afps like game without 9-15 weapons that you can hold in one fight and have that game still be called afps

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cause if you look at the rest of things

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movement, items, maps

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there is fast movement in a lot of games

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there are a lot of games where u need to pick up items too

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and lots of games where the map makes you fight in specific areas with lots of verticality

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the one thing that makes afps different is all the weapons u can have at same time and then these 3 things all on top of it

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it's overwhelming simply put

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</rant

kindred robin
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i think 'arcade shooter' stuff can live; black ops 3, dirty bomb, shatterline type games, but i think true quake-like fps are just doomed

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also i realise i just listed 3 dead games (shatterline will die soon enough), but a lot of these games get cinderblocked by shit balancing/support

tropic vine
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arena fps looks so fun but it was always hard for me to get into

grizzled solstice
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arena fps is like starcraft, shit only fun if you willing to spend 30 hours of your life miserable first

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people can choose that, or they can go play the 100 others games that are instantly fun, which 99.9999 percent of gamers play games for

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the only way I see arena fps back is a Quake AAA remake by ID Software with amazing single player, advertised like its the next Doom 2016, and offers modes that's easier to general gamers with duel or harder teammodes for comp play

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Fortnite recently added no building mode, but they also improved the movement with slide, super sprint, climbing, in that mode, that's a dev team that understands how to keep a game alive

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they still have building mode, and comp scene is still in building mode, they just have a good alternative to ease people in

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There's been way too many Quake clones for the past decade that fixes nothing that killed afps, and offers nothing new

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If people still want to play the good old quake 3 arena they would be playing rn, no amount of copy and paste will change people's mind

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And if you use another mindset, afps didn't exactly die, it just evolved (or devolved), into modern shooter

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not like the quake 3 devs made quake 3 with "afps" in mind

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it was just fps to them

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as far as Im aware, there hasn't been a successful spin on quake 3, so is it even a genre when all the other afps are practically clones with slightly tweaked stats

kindred robin
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i think games just dont survive without a "get in and have fun" capacity to them

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fighting games have HUGE skill diffs but u can skill hop on without knowing shit and mash some buttons against a homie and do stupid shit in ranked modes

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its almost mandatory to spend a fuck ton of time in training mode labbing ur shit to play fgs well, but its that initial 'bait' to suck u in to how cool a game is

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i dont think quake or starcraft or whatever else really has enough of that to survive even as somewhat niche games

grizzled solstice
grizzled solstice
subtle jackal
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with diaboticals flop, i highly doubt any company would risk even making another quake type of game again. pretty much as everyone else said, unless they made the experience more for casuals, there likely will wont be a resurgence in the genre :(

vestal dock
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when i get rich or someone sponsors me

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ill build a popular afps

covert mason
vestal dock
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for almost every new player in afps or fps the experience is like this

scenic quarry
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As someone who had watched a lot of quake gameplay and got into qc recently, the hardest part for me to learn was the maps/movement. Remembering where all the pickups are (lights, heavy, mega, guns, ammo) took a long time to learn, and until I did, I was sort of aimlessly moving around the map, picking up items as I went. It was really annoying to be engaged in a fight with only your starter weapon and sometimes 1 or 2 guns that you picked up which weren't always useful to fight with; I couldn't get out of this pattern until I learned the location of weapons on the maps and could devise a plan on items to pick up based on where I spawned. Also, the system of movement in quake takes a good amount of time to master, and maintaining speed around the map was a big barrier to learning the game (still is, I haven't mastered it yet). I'm 50 hours in and still haven't taken the time to learn strogg/slash or CPMA characters because I feel that I still have to get the fundamentals of the game down (and partially because I'm lazy)

hollow merlin
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The competitive pool is relatively small too.

haughty gale
# red steppe And I’m pretty sure they would complain about it being too “hard”

Quite the opposite, I think they believe the arena shooter gameplay loop (which often does not rely on the single spawn per match/session as often as other game modes) is "too easy".

In fact, a lot of battle royales' appeal comes from it being "more difficult" than TDM. If anything, all it does is instil good covering habits if players are able to survive hot drops, but aside from that. that and the increased variables of battle royales appear to be its main source of appeal.

Tactical shooters such as CS:GO and Valorant have their appeal in that kills are not central to the main objective (although they can be), but even then, they provide the high stakes value that some players find is lacking from TDM.

verbal jay
hollow merlin
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Maybe the genre needs something accessible like Valorant as a starting point. Something that's simple compared to more nuanced arenas like Quake but is more inviting for newer players. Easier said than done of course.

kindred robin
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meh

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dont think there is enough interest in the genre at all for anything to get off the ground

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something more hybrid of afps and arcade shooters sorta like lawbreakers might work, but even then itd still have to be an attractive game to work. people just arent interested in afps item pickup gameplay loop

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team-based shooters like ow and team fortress might be the closest you get with enough popularity

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tbh if ultrakill had a really baller multiplayer mode, you might get some popularity there. nothing huge, but the game has a fairly good audience and has a visual style that gets people actually interested

hollow merlin
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Actually, someone is working on a multiplayer mod for Ultrakill. It's called Multikill

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Looks promising so far.

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The developer will never do it unfortunately.

vestal dock
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ultrakill looks absolutely horrendous

hollow merlin
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Most of the boomer shooters do to be honest.

haughty gale
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90s nostalgia in part is why

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I prefer 2d pixelated art style and may even tolerate Minecraft graphics more, but the early 3d look of shooters from then are kind of a miss for me

late anchor
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i disagree that the problem with arena shooters is the learning experience

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they just don't gigve any dopamine

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that's all it is

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they aren't addicting at all

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plus there's no waifus

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my first arena shooter was dbt

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learning the game was w/e

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but it just didn't draw me back at all

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i think an arena shooter could be popular but it would need an underlying base game that is actually fun, to support it

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stupid example: a BR is the base game, and then the arena mode is on top as an alternative

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if a game is actually addicting, it doesn't matter how frustrating it is to play. people will keep playing

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so imo tthe "accessible for new players" argument is almsot completely irrelevant

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and a red herring

vestal dock
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afps are just not fun

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unlucky

grizzled solstice
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Still wish they were more alive :( I wanna always hop onto quake live and play LG duels all the time!

hollow merlin
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Now that you mention it, a lot of AFPS do actually look a bit mundane and uninspired, atleast from a worldbuilding or eye candy standpoint. You have the mix of sci-fi and medieval maps but beyond that there's nothing to grab on. Fortnite has an appealing artstyle and eye candy that draws people in, or games like League, Valorant and Overwatch with a range of character's with interesting backstories and designs. AFPS's really need something like that,

haughty gale
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@late anchor the high stakes aspect of BR, not to mention greater RNG, draws more people into it. I just don't like needing to reconnect after I die even with good internet and matchmaking, that gameplay loop is not worth it for me.

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@hollow merlin that is a valid point actually. Back in the days when they peaked, art style was very limited, not just because of limited resources but also the creative direction of the studios and publishers were blinkered.

hollow merlin
haughty gale
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There's personal reasons I'm avoiding most games these days, but I loved how Overwatch reminded me of 2000s cartoons

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Hence why I got into as far as getting some merch for it at some point, but I digress. Quake was designed too much for a specific audience who were already "in the know" about the shooter scene, or at least seemed like D&D or Warhammer fans

vestal dock
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quake was designed for quakers

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so only quakers play it

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self gatekeep

haughty gale
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Yup

vestal dock
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every afps clone there has been, its still been for quakers

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some market it being for casuals

hollow merlin
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Took the words out of my mouth.

vestal dock
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but they dont seem to understand the distinction between a casual quaker and a new player

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and there is a massive difference

hollow merlin
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More like casually fragging.

vestal dock
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a casual quake player has years of experience in pubs and already knows all of the weapons and maps and gamemodes

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a gamemode catering to a casual player will not necessarily cater to a new player

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cause its just a completely different experience

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idk why no afps dev has understood this so far

hollow merlin
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The casual quake player is the guy your gf tells you not to worry about.

vestal dock
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even diabotical was made for "casuals"

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but when they mean casuals, they think it involves both new players and people who play quake 3h a week for years

hollow merlin
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Yeah and I still can't find a match in that game.

vestal dock
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and they were really only making a game for the latter

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think the only way to make afps fun is if its more team oriented and segmented

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then you get tf2 or overwatch

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which are afps made fun, and obviously losing the afps tag in eyes of all the purist

hollow merlin
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tf2 scout and soldier matches are the closest thing to what you're describing.

vestal dock
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but if you look at all the tf2 heroes or all the overwatch heroes

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and imagine instead of having 7-10 heroes

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u had 1

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with all of the weapons at the same time

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how fucking confusing would that be

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that's quake

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and then remove the objective part of it

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and team aspect

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and make it individual

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and makes it even rougher

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for anyone to have fun

haughty gale
hollow merlin
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I guess it would be too much for the mortal new player.

vestal dock
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afps have good and fun gamemodes that could be used as a base game

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freezetag, instafreezetag, unholy trinity is a good warmup mode too

haughty gale
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i think cod filled the void that arena shooters' niche marketing left, but instead, filled it with hand-holding balancing and a US military shooter theme

vestal dock
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1 flag ctf is great

haughty gale
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because cod actually inherits their engine from quake

hollow merlin
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Instagib can be fun too.

vestal dock
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i liked cod until cod4

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after that i didnt enjoy it at all

hollow merlin
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mw2 is unbalanced as fuck but I love it.

vestal dock
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i dont know why modes like instagib or freezetag or unholy trinity were never the forefront of the game

haughty gale
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i'm actually looking forward to the new mw2 but i'm not sure if i want to buy it even if i could afford it

haughty gale
vestal dock
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quake markets itself as being so pseudo hardcore

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that nobody is ever interested

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when it's really not that hard

hollow merlin
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Only for the elite.

vestal dock
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it's just confusing at the start

haughty gale
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well i'm someone who sucks at shooters so i will suck at it

haughty gale
vestal dock
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quake marketing basically tells u

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"if ur not an amazing fps gamer, dont come"

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"u will not have fun"

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a game that gatekeeps everyone out of it by itself

haughty gale
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only quake-like i can get into is diabotical but i just suck too much and enjoy the gameplay loop of cod clones so much more

hollow merlin
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I wanted UT to become a thing. That was a waste.

vestal dock
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when i become a billionaire

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i will make team fortress 3

hollow merlin
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You mean you'll make us wait.

vestal dock
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with quake weapons, cod weapons, cs weapons and etc

haughty gale
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i'd just rather there was a COD that wasn't US military themed that could contend with apex, some people avoid cod because they're convinced it's US military propaganda

vestal dock
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you can have shaft class, rail class, ak class, rocket class, deagle class etc

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would be really fun to see someone with a deagle

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in the same team as someone with an lg or rocket

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or fighting eachother

hollow merlin
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For some reason I thought of having a Monkey as a class. Like a scout but with more mobility.

vestal dock
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and overwatch shows u can add those weapons together and its not that hard to balance

haughty gale
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also looking forward to playing ow2 but personal issues are the only thing keeping me back

vestal dock
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its pretty great

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ive been looking for a dynamic fps to play and put hours in

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for years now

hollow merlin
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I've been enjoying the new heroes so far. But Moira is getting my nerves.

haughty gale
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i did play the original overwatch but got bored of it after a while and the player base was dying off as pubg and apex were eating up overwatch player numbers (not to mention too likely mw2019)

vestal dock
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and ow2 seems to be it

haughty gale
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i just need therapy before i can get into certain games tbf

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personal issues unrelated to my FPS skill are literally what's stopping me from getting into ow2 and especially valorant

hollow merlin
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Is it a manner of handling people online?

haughty gale
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no, not even that

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well, i'm a soloist so those games might not be for me but i'll try and make it work as someone who spent several months on BF4

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the games make me feel dysphoric

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with gender

hollow merlin
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First time I've heard that. Have you reached out to other people who've experienced it?

haughty gale
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idk. i think maddie but she plays csgo mostly. she hates valorant for gameplay reasons from what i heard

hollow merlin
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Picking at straws here but it could be more or less what you're internally feeling about yourself. Certain games you play may be triggering those feelings and become an extension.

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Have you tried VR before?

haughty gale
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yeah.

haughty gale
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but i've got a feeling the FPS market in VR would be as broken as it is on desktop and console. still would be an interesting experience, just can't afford it and may spend too little time on it for it to be worth

hollow merlin
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That's what usually happens. I don't regret the purchase at all and it really is different from your conventional gaming experience. I brought it up because I was curious to see if a virtual perspective would give insight to your situation.

haughty gale
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i'd like to consider it but even as i throw away money on peripherals, it's not likely worth it for me atm. too much money for me rn

hollow merlin
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Of course. But any self-exploring method would be helpful outside of your therapy, provided you're not hurting yourself.

haughty gale
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yeah

hollow merlin
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Personally, I treat it like putting on a pair of glasses with someone else's eyes. When I'm playing as a character I'm merely seeing what they're seeing. Hard to fathom but that's my viewpoint.

haughty gale
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hopefully i can get myself into exploring this at some point. i'd love to, but money is the main thing stopping me rn. or at least anything that's close enough to this or what i want

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which reminds me, a lot of AFPS games weren't free, but they weren't very expensive too I think. quake champions and diabotical are also free right now

hollow merlin
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I wish you good luck solving your dysphoria. Quake Champions has been free since release iirc. Still unfinished though, don't let the "official" release fool you.

hollow merlin
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About your assessment of ow2 ins. I wholeheartedly agree about it. It was the change of pace I really needed after getting burnt out on Valorant.

haughty gale
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I think arena FPS games are demonized because they're deemed "too easy" or at least too boring., as someone can get back in the fight after a deathstreak. Battle royales are seen as "harder" in that someone can't just keep launching themselves in the open, because if they lose that life, they have to sit at a lobby to fight again.

red steppe
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Battle royale at its core is rng bro

haughty gale
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mg?

red steppe
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https://youtu.be/kyEUDxx15pU
If this is considered to be “too boring” versus playing a hiking simulator for the first 10 minutes before finding someone then I lost all hope for the average gamer

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haughty gale
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idk, some like the tension of having to wait in the lobby again after dying in BR

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i don't.

haughty gale
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the RNG also appeals greatly to some with BR

hollow merlin
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Toxjq has been around since forever.

haughty gale
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I think if people see anything resembling the gameplay of CoD they think it's boring based on CoD's reputation.

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"Kill-die-respawn" gameplay with the occasional slur or mom joke filled in. BR's loop is different but the tension grabs some people.

vestal dock
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that's definitely the weirdest take i've ever seen on afps

haughty gale
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idk the history of it but cod (and halo, but to a much lesser extent I think) looked like it could have filled the niche for those bored by or not fans of quake and unreal, but didn't want a completely realistic shooter experience like the niche arma (then operation flashpoint for a time) and swat titles

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but i do feel like that the "kill-die-respawn soon" gameplay loop no longer interests people, and people love the higher stakes nature of BR. i find it too stressful and frustrating