general

[sour totem]

😭

[worldly tartan]

prolly I didnt think very deeply

[crisp forge]

i liked old rust gunplay more but it did suck dying to scripters

[sour totem]

dw man it's okay

But yes I am gm

[hushed patrol]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/899764364498837504/1286081669740105844/jadewarrior.gif

[sour totem]

not consistently and not by much

but I'm in the rank

somehow

I still don't know how

[fiery flume]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/899764364498837504/1452088098577055744/another_day.gif

[slim ember]

DAMN. do you have any tips?

[crisp forge]

and back then basically every clan had at least one scripter so its like ggs

[sour totem]

No

[placid wave]

you need to enjoy the games now when they are good because devs are scammers

[sour totem]

Everything seems more complex than it is

[placid wave]

and will ruin their game

[sour totem]

If you're stuck post vods

don't just ask for advice

uh

[placid wave]

its not a matter of if but when they fuck up their shit

[unkempt fulcrum]

how long left on ur dl

[sour totem]

And actually listen to advice

[fiery flume]

unironically good advice

[crisp forge]

rust was honestly “ruined” long before combat update

[crisp forge]

team ui increase was

not good

actually no old rust didnt have team ui at all

[gleaming atlas]

Hi twinnn

[unkempt fulcrum]

Ok what’s ur epic

[placid wave]

yeah its usually a slow burn slow shitifcation of something

[sour totem]

What annoys me with this is the terminology commonly used only makes everything seem more complex and just over the top than it ever should be

[placid wave]

but facepunch dropped a nuke

[sour totem]

take a guess bro.

[crisp forge]

team ui was a worse update than combat update

[storm hamlet]

just witnessed my brother hit his hand on the ceiling fan, VR is not for the weak 😭

[wanton moth]

after long last my first plat clicking score

[fiery flume]

that’s often the irony of trying to teach something

[leaden sundial]

swagsurfin2747

[sour totem]

why

do I hbave

[crisp forge]

honestly we get good updates and bad updates

[sour totem]

43 friend requests

[storm hamlet]

Great job man

[sour totem]

wtf

[crisp forge]

good updates such as turret nerfs

[unkempt fulcrum]

Idk I got 157

[crisp forge]

well they did nerf turrets too hard

[wanton moth]

thank u vro, its not static but its something 😭 man i suck at clicking

[unkempt fulcrum]

Random kids in reload and ranked

[wanton moth]

atleast i got something out of today

[fiery flume]

that’s ok because clicking isn’t real

[crisp forge]

but i think they did need a nerf

[placid wave]

the more games you play the more you realize the fps is dead

[storm hamlet]

you're def not going to like it in the advanced segement (well apart from me)

[crisp forge]

turret nerf at least makes roads not as annoying

[sour totem]

If you didn't guess

it's jadesoar

what's yours

[fiery flume]

fps has been in a bad spot for quite some time now

[muted hollow]

Clicking doesn't exist in my world

[crisp forge]

and onlines more viable

[sour totem]

there's so fucking many

[unkempt fulcrum]

buhlockehhh

[fiery flume]

clicking doesn’t exist in mine either

[fallen slate]

Guys

Guy's

[crisp forge]

now instead of trying to online someone and dealing w the 50 zillion turrets of allah

[formal bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/lenny-confetti-kitty-kitten-cat-cat-wiggle-gif-3410022925973943926

[fallen slate]

Clicking is real.

[crisp forge]

you have to deal w like

4

[placid wave]

Yes bro every company wants to release another shitty cs tac fps clone

[fiery flume]

take it back

[next jacinth]

popcorn is literally clicking?

[fallen slate]

I have changed

[placid wave]

no company makes good shooters now

[fiery flume]

hero shooter/extraction shooter/battle royale

[placid wave]

they all ass

[meager meteor]

what if i just skip master raw control and get gm

[peak estuary]

https://tenor.com/view/umora-sable-weasel-cute-jump-gif-21761199

[peak estuary]

krunker exists

[next jacinth]

theres only 1 CS clone and thats val.........

what is bro talking about

[placid wave]

extraction shooters the new meta

[fiery flume]

he has arrived

[lusty oasis]

hi vt gen

[wanton moth]

bro im plat rn aint gonna get there for like another 1000 hours

[peak estuary]

no?

[placid wave]

fragpunk

[sour totem]

this is impossible

holy shit

[placid wave]

and so many other games that just died off rip

awful games

[fallen slate]

The voices told me I was gonna be just another tracker, but no... I looked in the mirror and saw something greater,

[unkempt fulcrum]

Wait 3 h

[split sparrow]

I need a big mouse for a big ass hand I’m 21x10ish so anyone know any recommendations that don’t break the bank, preferably under 140.

[peak estuary]

g5042

[fiery flume]

cut off your fingers

[sour totem]

tf u mean 3h

[placid wave]

cut your fingers shorter

[next jacinth]

is fragpunk good

[peak estuary]

no

[placid wave]

thats the only hope

[lusty oasis]

get smaller hands

[placid wave]

no its dog shit

[peak estuary]

the movement feels dogshit and the card gimmick got old fast

[muted hollow]

1000 hours is a bit of a stretch how long did it take to get to plat

[weary monolith]

I can kinda do it guys let’s go

[placid wave]

lik every awful cs cloned

[next jacinth]

i need a Call of duty clone

[lusty oasis]

no it's lame but the gunplay feels nice

[placid wave]

CS is the only tac fps its perfected it

anything else is just shit

[sour totem]

holy shit

[muted hollow]

They're all shut down

[sour totem]

I FOUND NTHE FRIEND REQUEWS

LET'S GOOO

[lusty oasis]

play the tdm mode if u rly wanna play fragpunk

[unkempt fulcrum]

We playin west right

[sour totem]

I am

east

coast

my man

[lusty oasis]

or dom or wtv

[unkempt fulcrum]

Ok I’ll play east

[weary monolith]

Does cs2 run on intel graphics 300

[unkempt fulcrum]

I think im like 50 it’s not bad

[muted hollow]

Could play bf6 small maps

[next jacinth]

they even shut down call of duty I cant even play MW 2019 or MW2-3 lol

[lusty oasis]

the j*des are collaborating

[next jacinth]

paid money to get scammed

[lusty oasis]

this is not good

[wanton moth]

idk i didnt even realize i got plat overall rank, if u mean plat on floating heads rn i got 122hrs

[sour totem]

you're going to shit on me

[formal bluff]

xdefiant 😂

[meager meteor]

im nearly jade... ski can we still be friends..?

[next jacinth]

i thought that was shut down

[unkempt fulcrum]

nahhh

im washed

[formal bluff]

yeah

[lusty oasis]

no

[fiery flume]

can they just release mw2019 again and not shit the bed this time

[sour totem]

last time I played was nearly a year ago.

[meager meteor]

pretty please??

[sour totem]

and I was already bad then

[fiery flume]

I’ll forgive them

for everything

[sour totem]

😭

[next jacinth]

who wants to carry me in val

bronze

[crisp forge]

guys look at our new extraction shooter thats a more casual version of tarkov!!!

were super unique

and innovative

[placid wave]

bro look at marathon

[lusty oasis]

no

[placid wave]

look at highground

shooters are fucked

[next jacinth]

tbh why doesnt someone just make tarkov but that actually runs good

[placid wave]

devs are frauds

[fiery flume]

arc raiders was good fun but I already knew it was gonna end up in the same place as the others

was only a matter of time

[placid wave]

horrible at their jobs get them out of the industry

[lusty oasis]

why don't they just make tarkov run good

[next jacinth]

they dont want to

[crisp forge]

eft will always be the king on top

[next jacinth]

they want us to suffer

[lusty oasis]

ebt

[placid wave]

didn't they make the game crappy with the new movement system

[meager meteor]

but but what if i get master raw control

[next jacinth]

no way tarkov has new movement

[lusty oasis]

get master aether

[crisp forge]

he talm bout inertia

[placid wave]

name a modern shooter there isn't a time where the devs just didn't snort something and ruin shit

[next jacinth]

i havent played in 3 years lol

[crisp forge]

it aint new its 4 years old

[formal bluff]

i still fw arc raiders

[lusty oasis]

terraria🙏

[fiery flume]

yeah it’s good, it’s just the novelty has worn off

[lusty oasis]

okay now we're moving the goal post

i saw that

[formal bluff]

the finals

[next jacinth]

Terraria is Goated

[crisp forge]

melee 💔

[lusty oasis]

i know what you are pablo.minecraft.2011

[formal bluff]

melee isnt even good in that game

[fiery flume]

the finals is good, but I didn’t find it very enjoyable to play solo

[crisp forge]

its annoying

[placid wave]

it got better it got worse still horrible visual clutter

[crisp forge]

i played one game

[placid wave]

they need to fix that

[peak estuary]

apex

[next jacinth]

sounds like you want to play GTA with us reikuro

[muted hollow]

The tournaments are torture to play solo

[crisp forge]

and kept getting hooked and meleed

[meager meteor]

sounds like u want me dead?

aether will kill my wrist

[placid wave]

horrible game with the most inept studio and devs running the game

[lusty oasis]

i wanna play gta with u guys

[lusty oasis]

i do want u dead

[fiery flume]

you’re doing it wrong

[next jacinth]

we're not stopping you

[lusty oasis]

and i hate u

[crisp forge]

hop on

[formal bluff]

well you're probably just new and dont know how to deal with it

[meager meteor]

oh ok sory......

[lusty oasis]

no space:(

[formal bluff]

melee in the finals is not good

[lusty oasis]

and it would literally take days

to install

[crisp forge]

true but if im not having fun in the first hour

then i will just uninstall lol

[peak estuary]

how about css

[placid wave]

source ?

[wanton moth]

counter strike source?

[placid wave]

bro no one liked that game for comp it was awful

[lusty oasis]

if i uninstall everything on my pc i can play gta

[wanton moth]

i like it casually

[placid wave]

its good for community games but awful for what cs was

[crisp forge]

how muchare ssds rn

[placid wave]

or is

[wanton moth]

the spray patterns arent even consistent in css

[brave leaf]

stg if I keep seeing people talk like this about game devs I will start getting actually triggered

[lusty oasis]

i dunno like 2 billion dollar

[wanton moth]

but like the game is the most fun CS game

imo

[peak estuary]

i think its fairly earned for the apex team

[wanton moth]

even tho its not competitive

[peak estuary]

and maybe 2018 ow team

[brave leaf]

blame the business decisions don't blame the devs

[past sparrow]

omg vt bardoz method

[peak estuary]

i can blame both

[fiery flume]

someone always needs to be a scapegoat for the collapse of society and my hobbies

[placid wave]

you play cs where they don't do anything but add new maps

[brave leaf]

ok, how are the developers inept
?

[lusty oasis]

hey grandpa u hit any pbs this week

[wanton moth]

devs dont care they just wanna get paid cant blame them

[agile arch]

what do u want them to change about cs bro

[fiery flume]

watch your mouth there

[brave leaf]

you all are so clueless

[brave leaf]

https://x.com/bardozVAL/status/2007207504644845906

bardOZ (Giovanni Laerte Frongia) (@bardozVAL)

I AM BACK

I AM COMING FOR 1900

I AM COMING FOR THE #1 AGAIN

JUST WAIT AND SEE

1wall 6targets small | 86cm | 1440p | 107OW fov | 800 dpi

zero soft | x2h crazylight

X · Jan 2, 2026, 9:48 PM

[wanton moth]

and the very few who speak up who care about the game will have all the stuff they want to add turned down by upper management

[muted hollow]

new? Map?

Maps?

[placid wave]

wait 4 years they will bless you soon

[wanton moth]

devs like making new shit since maintaining is boring as hell

u can see this at valve too

[lusty oasis]

oooo icu old timer

[crisp forge]

80 buck for 500gb

[lusty oasis]

i fw u uncle

[lusty oasis]

i'd do some devious things for another ssd

[indigo cairn]

This is inspiring.

[unkempt fulcrum]

@sour totem bro I get 70 ping on east 🤣

[south parcel]

Why not 103?

[wanton moth]

like if i write some code and come back to it like a month later im like yeah fuck this shit lmao

[azure spear]

i always feel so bad for devs when browsing discussions about games

[brave leaf]

what are you even saying, how can you generalize like this, this behavior is insane

[sour totem]

okayh

?

[south parcel]

Is thrre serious benefit?

[wanton moth]

@brave leaf

[unkempt fulcrum]

Ts aids I thought I got 50

[brave leaf]

yes, same, but now that I am not employed I will call out idiots who behave like this

[azure spear]

bc 99.9% of the time they are under insane time pressure to get shit done

[brave leaf]

yes maybe assume they do care?

[fiery flume]

you people don’t really know what it is you want.
you also don’t really know what it was about the things you liked that made them great.
you think everything is bad now, and you want someone to blame for everything changing.

truth is that times are just different now, and a lot of you are just not kids with no responsibilities anymore. your perception has changed, and the landscape has changed as well.

[placid wave]

bro if you don't know who daniel z klein is

[azure spear]

im sure no developer wants to have their work release broken and unfinished

[placid wave]

holy

[sour totem]

you're playing someone

[azure spear]

why would u ever want that 😭

[sour totem]

that doesn't touch this game

you're fucking fine

[lusty oasis]

shoutout fromsoftware

[placid wave]

that dude fucked 2 games league and apex

[lusty oasis]

DUDE SHOUTOUT CYBERPUNK LMFAOOO

[wanton moth]

ow2 devs purposefully release new heroes as being really strong they even mentioned it

[lusty oasis]

luv what consumers did to that game

[wanton moth]

since when lifeweaver dropped he was utter shit

[peak estuary]

they do this so people dont just ignore the new hero

[brave leaf]

clearly these people here (I hope they are very young) would rather talk shit about random people working their ass off in one of the most insane industries (go check the rate of burnout amongst game devs) to feel better

[peak estuary]

same happens in league

but its 100x worse

[azure spear]

right like imagine being a creator who spent years working on the incredible art direction and world of that game only for it to release and not function

[wanton moth]

im not sure about apex tho i dont play

[brave leaf]

absolutely LOSER behavior

[warm elbow]

dont be telling gta6 devs that

gon take another 20 years

[placid wave]

Daniel Z Klein did horrible gameplay changes no one liked and just argued while no one liked them my goat

[crisp forge]

gta 6 not releasing in our lifetime bro

[agile lily]

I shoot dots

[crisp forge]

just give up

[serene field]

expectations are too high for this chat i think

[fiery flume]

you gotta forgive the ignorance man.

[agile lily]

How about yall

[warm elbow]

youre right bro

[lusty oasis]

i miss when they made good games like peggle 3

[agile lily]

Would you rather
All bots are now pills
Or all bots are now dots

[elder lichen]

devs normally have very little decision power afaik, normally the managers above them tell them a deadline and the devs have to kinda figure it out

[agile lily]

Lmk

[lusty oasis]

now everything is just a copycat cash grab

[crisp forge]

i miss when they made good games like pong

[wanton moth]

im not talking shit im saying that for alot of software devs its a job, they go to work and get paid thats it. Alot of people go into software dev for the bag they dont actually care, atleast it was like that when i did my course

[lusty oasis]

pong went crazy

would've done numbers today

[crisp forge]

truke

[undone fiber]

https://tenor.com/view/soyonagasaki-gif-12027096825525371874

[serene field]

uip arrow

[brave leaf]

obviously

[crisp forge]

https://tenor.com/view/rust-gif-27686883

[warm elbow]

any dev that works at ubisoft needs a paycut

[wanton moth]

usually the passion for a project comes from the project lead they're in charge the devs just to what they're told

[brave leaf]

I have no issue with ignorance

I have an issue with arrogance backed by zero actual competence

[peak estuary]

i dont think leaving brig the way she was for a year was a good idea

[fiery flume]

I’m with you, I guess they go hand in hand

[peak estuary]

1 year.

[summer birch]

I hate the eft devs

[brave leaf]

and lately too many people here are arrogant as fuck and speak in absolutes and are a negative force criticizing everything without having a single actual drop of competence in the field they keep criticizing

ignorant people that are open minded are fine

[serene field]

lately is crazy

but i Agree

[brave leaf]

ignorant people that think they know shit aren't fine

[placid wave]

or kiriko

[peak estuary]

i know what i know

[placid wave]

or any new ow2 support

[fiery flume]

I’m really happy that you’re saying something about this

[placid wave]

being thanos out the gate

[lusty oasis]

damn grandpa let em know

[peak estuary]

i know that brig and goats was left unchecked for a whole yar

[fiery flume]

shut up ski

[agile lily]

Are you sure you know what you know or do you just think you know what you know

[lusty oasis]

WHAT

[agile lily]

Did you know

[lusty oasis]

he's my friend

[wanton moth]

kiriko is a dev favorite one of the devs litterally has her tatooed on her arm

[peak estuary]

killing the casual player base

[elder lichen]

Im assuming thats also not in the power of the devs

[lusty oasis]

i luv bardo

[fiery flume]

[elder lichen]

at least in league

[lusty oasis]

that's twin i luv grandpa bardo

[placid wave]

they were taking their christmas break hop off the devs back they were resting

[elder lichen]

things like that are for champion designers

[peak estuary]

im aware there is multiple teams but

[fiery flume]

I’m white knighting for my dawg

[peak estuary]

just having a thanos level

pick or lose character

for a year

[elder lichen]

yeah

[peak estuary]

is so out of touch

[lusty oasis]

bro that's literally twin

[fallen hatch]

ghostcrawler 🤣

[elder lichen]

but how is that relevant to what I said 😭

[summer birch]

Can I hate on the tarkov devs?

[elder lichen]

when it was specificlaly about devs

[meager meteor]

my rawcontrol earlier today was literally 1000 under what im doing now and im still mad its not good enough D:

[summer birch]

Theyre the only ones I hate

[lusty oasis]

he don't even got u added reikuro

:p

[crisp forge]

skinwalkers being added to ow2

[fiery flume]

oh man

true

[crisp forge]

most are chill tbh

[lusty oasis]

yeah u leave shawty alone

[fiery flume]

can I add you @brave leaf my king

[summer birch]

Isnt nikita lead dev

[brave leaf]

sure

[summer birch]

I hate him

[undone fiber]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1306527402792587406/1435516912518828062/ezgif.com-speed_2.gif

[crisp forge]

ya

[summer birch]

Yeah he sucks

[lusty oasis]

touché

[crisp forge]

domontovich chill though

i fw him

[lusty oasis]

we are on equal ground now

[fiery flume]

I completely agree with your sentiment bardoz, I would be up there arguing the same points as you are but I fear they just fall on deaf ears unless coming from a community figure

[brave leaf]

yeah I get it, you're probably right

[lusty oasis]

u make a good point reikuro

i wish u were famous

[fiery flume]

you however are a community figure

[serene field]

still goes in one ear out the other

[fiery flume]

using the power for good

[peak estuary]

guys i cant even lj 270 anymore

its over

[serene field]

its discord

[fiery flume]

unfortunately it’ll always go something like that

[elder lichen]

Ive never understood the "fuck these devs why cant they fix the game??!!"

[fiery flume]

but, it’s always worth trying

sometimes it just takes time for things to click for some people

sometimes they just need to be challenged

[serene field]

meh

[meager meteor]

aim trains

[brave leaf]

at least I try hah ty

[elder lichen]

bcs you have to literally never even worked remotely close to smth regarding anything like that, OR have just never thought about how a company is normally structured, to not realize taht devs dont want to create slop themselves

[rough pumice]

🤤

[meager meteor]

YES im ROLEPLAYING aim training instead of ACTUALLY aim training

[lusty oasis]

real

[brave leaf]

just people have no idea how a company actually works

[lusty oasis]

i was gonna ask if u just did that

u seem like u know things bardoz

i fw u uncle

[fiery flume]

something to at least keep in mind is that most people just come to these communities to turn off their inner monologue and spout shit and nonsense for laughs, they might actually agree with you but cannot be bothered to engage with the conversation seriously

[warm elbow]

probably because theyre unemployed 🙃

[placid wave]

for apex the devs they were told what would happen they did it anyway everyone thought it was horrible then they changed it and that had happened for so many times

it just makes you wonder what they are smoking in that studio

[crisp forge]

that exotic gas

[wanton moth]

told by who players?

[south parcel]

what did you except frmo guy that finished uni and worked several years in field

[summer birch]

What about for indie games, where the lead dev tells his community that they are all dumb when he receives pushback

[crisp forge]

that gorillapoop gas

[placid wave]

pros

[crisp forge]

dude i remember

[wanton moth]

tbh players are really stupid and make stupid suggestions

[placid wave]

the people who understand their game the most

[crisp forge]

when i heard that the gorillapoop gas

was real

[brave leaf]

they're also very young

[lusty oasis]

idk twin he like new age socrates tho

[wanton moth]

most games should take minimal community feedback. Only identify problems but not actually listen to players

[lusty oasis]

bardotes

[brave leaf]

but I just dislike how nowadays everyone feels like it's okay or cool to just be speaking in absolutes

[peak estuary]

esports titles should take a lot of feedback from pros

[warm elbow]

i just absolutely demolished these buldak noodles

[fiery flume]

I know exactly what you mean.

[wanton moth]

depends, tf2 died because of their suggestions

[lusty oasis]

r6

[summer birch]

Why couldnt you partially demolish them

[placid wave]

most goated game devs understand they don't know their game as well as pros who play it 12 hours a day so they ask their pros to test give feedback and do actual good changes

[brave leaf]

this is a really bad take

[wanton moth]

pros dont really know how the game works behind the scenes

[lusty oasis]

they took the pros opinions and the game got cooked

[warm elbow]

im feeling very absolute rn

[peak estuary]

how so

[brave leaf]

another bad take

[lusty oasis]

r6

[wanton moth]

lol no

[placid wave]

Valve does this and they did this so many times thats why they are goated

[peak estuary]

if you want your game to thrive as an esport surely you would want to listen to those players

[wanton moth]

they did this with tf2 and the pros ruined the game

[brave leaf]

because pros are usually a very tiny percentile of the playerbase, and if you cater to them, you kill the game for the average player, which is ultimately what allows the esport to exist in the first place by making the game relevant

[serene field]

is the main goal ever esports

[elder lichen]

yo guys

a company

[brave leaf]

if you cater to an estremely small percentage of your playerbase

[elder lichen]

is meant to make money

[brave leaf]

how can your business thrive

[elder lichen]

btw

[brave leaf]

yeah

[fiery flume]

at least take some solace in knowing that a lot of young and intelligent people are seeing through the nonsense as well, they just get drowned out sometimes

[elder lichen]

thats what a buisness is meant to do

??

[placid wave]

no thats just a flat out lie lol

[wanton moth]

imagine if they buffed mercy because shes bad in pro play

[placid wave]

and pros had a hand on tf2s balance way before jungle inferno or the 2010's

[lusty oasis]

LMAOOO

[south parcel]

even in payback of producing crap, ah yeah welcome "made in china", fuck china is ahead everywhere

[peak estuary]

the longest running games have the biggest esports

[placid wave]

they literally had branches for pros and players to test stuff

[wanton moth]

jungle inferno wasnt even the patch bro it was meet your match that ruined the game

[placid wave]

they asked for feedback and used it

[summer birch]

Im making a game where the core element is opening loot boxes

Need my money

[lusty oasis]

ooooo

[keen juniper]

the same games will exist forever and esports is a dead catagory besides those few games like league of legends

[wanton moth]

the difference was they took pros solutions like nerfing base jumper and among other stupid shit and then added a half baked comp mode

[lusty oasis]

i like that idea

[placid wave]

robin walker and other devs on tf2 watched the pro scene asked for feedback and did stuff with them

[wanton moth]

that pros dont even play

[south parcel]

u do casino but case openner?

[elder lichen]

if you focus on the 1% of the playerbase you will gradually lose the non addicted other 99% of the playerbase, with that lose money, and then the 1% will also not gain anything anymore

[fallen hatch]

would you say gunz should have removed kstyle and had a bit more players happy but never played past that point

[south parcel]

(cause the 1% would play anyway) (?)

[peak estuary]

im not saying completly forego the casual audience

[brave leaf]

I hate how everyone just wants to simplify every damn thing

[upbeat geyser]

fuck you salzi

[fallen hatch]

keep in mind its being revived exclusively because of kstyle in 2026

[peak estuary]

but not taking anything ideas from the top 1%

[brave leaf]

and then instead of being open to actually understanding it

they assume they understand it all

[peak estuary]

is just stupid

[upbeat geyser]

You're expecting much from people who prefer to read short stuff

[elder lichen]

Its why aimlabs made these competitions and all that not in a way that "Pro aimers" want them to be bcs they would be insanely unappealing for the average playerbase

[weary monolith]

I can actually get 150 fps at 480p on aimlabs I think I can still get jade

[elder lichen]

at least the earlier ones

[storm hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/skeleton-angry-gif-3764967725878067762

[south parcel]

this like kruger domen effect?

[wanton moth]

dunning kruger

[placid wave]

no no no no no what they did was they rushed competitive update to compete with overwatch it was half baked and bad

[brave leaf]

listen I will give you a tangible example. counter strike survived for the longest time because of community servers. Creating tooling and support for community servers is something that no pro would have ever suggested at the time. In your hypothetical "just listen to pros", CS would have died

[south parcel]

ye dunning

[keen juniper]

bad idea you need the core idea to be microtransactions and then have rng and lootboxes as a critical part of obtaining full sets of anything

[brave leaf]

you all just don't understand how complex some of the things you confidently speak about are

[south parcel]

im bad with names

of stuff

[brave leaf]

yes it is the dunning kruger effect

[placid wave]

they did changes pros were confused and didn't even talk about on their own

andr they got the blame

[keen juniper]

so you have loot boxes and 19.99 store microtransactions

[crisp forge]

this is what bungie does and it killed d2

[upbeat geyser]

ironic from you

[worldly tartan]

whatis everyone so amd abt

[elder lichen]

wat

[brave leaf]

ironic from me?

[worldly tartan]

what i miss

[brave leaf]

tell me what topic I confidently speak about that I do not understand

[serene field]

refuses to elaborate

[brave leaf]

go ahead

[summer birch]

I will simply read from now on

[brave leaf]

ofc he will refuse to elaborate

[upbeat geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/jerry-meme-tom-and-jerry-meme-jerry-points-get-a-load-of-this-guy-this-guy-gif-11384860625931393733

he fell for it

[fallen hatch]

pros played on community servers, even outside of cs you have cod4promod, cpma etc

[brave leaf]

because all of the people that have a personal issue with me are literal idiots

[fiery flume]

good one bro

[fallen hatch]

ut2k4 promod list goes on

[summer birch]

He rage baited

[south parcel]

i forgot to laugh

[wanton moth]

they asked for the base jumper change since in pro play there is no long range hitscan weapon to punish soldiers high in the sky, thats a stupid change because it was a meme item and is now just unfun in casual play

[brave leaf]

community servers were the only servers that existed back then

[lusty oasis]

😭

[brave leaf]

I am saying the tooling for stuff like menus, plugins, etc.

[upbeat geyser]

Here, I'll do it for you, LOL!

[fiery flume]

case in point

[elder lichen]

tf happened logic

[brave leaf]

imagine if they had fixed the bug that allowed surf to exist

[placid wave]

people 100% play sniper and off class to protect last point

[brave leaf]

because idk a pro said that it made a specific map broken

[upbeat geyser]

wdym

[fallen hatch]

but the point is right it was specifically modded for pros in games with promods or higher tickrate

[brave leaf]

you guys just don't understand

[south parcel]

thank you, you're very helpful!

[upbeat geyser]

np, yw!

[elder lichen]

u either having bad takes or just omega ragebaiting

[fallen hatch]

the pro scenes all decided lets change the game to make it more competitive

[brave leaf]

pretty cowardly but ok

[upbeat geyser]

I agree on the second, but on the first?

[leaden sundial]

hi hexings

[upbeat geyser]

lol

[lusty oasis]

woah hexings like the guy from aiming

[upbeat geyser]

that's exactly me!

[placid wave]

pros find problems before the average player does and they abuse and use them

[wanton moth]

off classing to sniper is mainly for med pick, on last engie is usually played but even then most last points are usually indoors

[lusty oasis]

is it

[brave leaf]

at least if you want to attack me personally have the balls to follow through instead of going like hurr durr trolled ya!!!

[wanton moth]

base jumper is something that theoretically be used on mid

[upbeat geyser]

did you really get it that personally holy

lmao

[wanton moth]

but barely anyone even used it

[upbeat geyser]

it was just a ragebait

chill

[brave leaf]

"ironic coming from you" is your idea of a non-personal ragebait?

[upbeat geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/gumball-caveman-dumb-stupid-tawog-gif-13425892202206643968

[fiery flume]

when you successfully ragebait and then are perplexed by how you’ve frustrated someone

[upbeat geyser]

second phase bosses be like

[placid wave]

Casual tf2 players saying pros killed/ruined the game is such a braindead thing to say when you look at the history of the game they were always a substantial part of it

[brave leaf]

you think if we were in a room right now that'd have been a funny joke to say to my face? that's how you operate normally in real life? man people are so weird

[crisp forge]

@next jacinth hop on gta

[serene field]

the double bait

[crisp forge]

its time to grind

[lusty oasis]

bro think he abyss watchers

[leaden sundial]

hello ploop

[unborn wolf]

i just found the display cable for my screen now im running 165hz woohoo

[serene field]

hey bori

[meager meteor]

im donee aim training for today

[elder lichen]

like I get it sometimes you wanna troll a bit or ragebait someone you know, as a joke, but I feel like you kinda should also learn how to read the room

[meager meteor]

i went from plat to nearly jade :D

[upbeat geyser]

whatever floats your little boat, lol

[next jacinth]

after this val game

[sacred marsh]

@hollow basalt pizzas

[upbeat geyser]

@hollow basalt pizzas

[wanton moth]

not saying they're all to blame since at the end of the day its the devs that add stuff but saying pro players should be highly prioritized for feedback is just wrong since games are fundamentally differrent at pro play tf2 6s and casual are completely different

[crisp forge]

ight

@fallen hatch did you get your acc back

[brave leaf]

who the fuck are you anyway?

literally never interacted before and your idea of a ragebait is a personal attack

[upbeat geyser]

If such things make him go into such an offensive stance, he should reconsider his priorities, lol

[next copper]

@sacred marsh pizzas

[wanton moth]

pro players have more of a say than some random player with 20 hrs since they played the game more tho

dont get me wrong

[brave leaf]

what a coward

[sacred marsh]

why u still awake boy

[peak estuary]

pros fundamentally understand the game better and more in-depth, im not saying to disregard the casual voice on what makes the game "fun"

[upbeat geyser]

lol

[serene field]

pizzas

[wanton moth]

ye thats what i said

[fallen hatch]

end of the day its up to the developer to please both communities

i don't think pros can ever be at fault since they just give feedback

[wanton moth]

@peak estuary

[south parcel]

company*

[wanton moth]

no its project lead

[sacred marsh]

good eats

[next copper]

i just woke up in cold sweat

[sacred marsh]

areu good

[wanton moth]

project lead and middle managment have the most say

[fallen hatch]

the ceo isn't deciding on game balance, game dev is such a broad spectrum

[serene field]

he had a pasu dodge 360 nightmare

[placid wave]

truke

[fallen hatch]

the guy coding the game isn't the same one making decisions for example

[south parcel]

i meant sth like havok said but i didnt know how to name it

[next copper]

i think so, it happens quite often

[storm hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/twitching-eye-gif-26162222

[fallen hatch]

being a mapper means you are a game dev

[next copper]

idk why

[sacred marsh]

o

[placid wave]

its like Corporate serf vs anyone who actually knows what they are talking about

[lusty oasis]

damn serf stray

[crisp forge]

whoever designed this chud ass map lighthouse

[south parcel]

why we hating on serf

at least he pushes ppl

[placid wave]

he a horrible grifter

[lusty oasis]

idk didn't he make the 20cm smoothness thing

[crisp forge]

tbf lighthouse was meant to be an expansion for shoreline

[lusty oasis]

that's all ik about serf

[leaden sundial]

its like aimer7 vs any voltaichud

[upbeat geyser]

what did serf do

[crisp forge]

then bsg was like oh shit we need some content for 12.12

[sacred marsh]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1049150105606950938/1455305785105191055/togif.gif

[crisp forge]

and released it

[upbeat geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/druski-rage-angry-annoyed-whatever-gif-5126333390325209476

[south parcel]

whats really big

[wanton moth]

kinda but not really u could make a map without typing a line of code like by using hammer or something

[next copper]

i eat before sleep and nightmares (mostly) go away

dreams go away

[serene field]

get a kebab at 3 am

[narrow trout]

ayo

[south parcel]

give me more context z

[fallen hatch]

yeah thats my point its still game dev

[next copper]

fake krulas

[narrow trout]

anyone knows why my balls in kovaaks are metallic

[upbeat geyser]

that's like the point of life

[sacred marsh]

the big z is big

[brave leaf]

lmao and you're italian as well? what a disappointment

[lusty oasis]

😭😭😭

[sacred marsh]

yea thats on ur visuals

[placid wave]

he just chatting out of his ass and be a bad coach

[upbeat geyser]

you still goin on? holy

[crisp forge]

i think lighthouse like top 10 worst maps in a game evr

[narrow trout]

how do i change it

[fallen hatch]

a developer is basically an entire team of people as far as game development is concerned unless i see it differently

[upbeat geyser]

Oh what? Really?

[wanton moth]

developers be coding

[fallen hatch]

so many different roles

[upbeat geyser]

I was friends with him for some time before I stopped playing aim trainers

[sacred marsh]

esc > visuals

[wanton moth]

software dev

[sacred marsh]

i think theres enemies then u go there should be there

[wanton moth]

a guy who is making maps would be called a map designer

[sacred marsh]

and also change the other setting on the main menu i think its override scenarios visuals

enable it

[wanton moth]

usually in the credits

idk

[full escarp]

more insane valorant graphics

[fallen hatch]

outside of game development yeah but would you call a landscape developer a programmer

[leaden island]

LMFAO??

[upbeat geyser]

smash?

[south parcel]

i wont say playing smoothness on high sens is bad, its pretty beneficial but maybe not that much

[summer birch]

I wanna party with heather

[full escarp]

my valo has fucked graphics on my laptop

and the laptop still runs valo at 20 fps

[summer birch]

Ass fat could see through the leather

[leaden island]

i remmeber playing valo on my laptop when i went to australia bor

that shit was so ass

[lusty oasis]

that's j all i know ab him

[upbeat geyser]

Wait did you do the potatographics youtuber guide for this?

[leaden island]

i was so bad

[wanton moth]

thats a different context bro and a completely different field

[lusty oasis]

i have the playlist downloaded

[full escarp]

no

this happens every 2 or 3 matches

[summer birch]

@full escarp can we party

[full escarp]

randomly

[upbeat geyser]

hoooly

[full escarp]

i dont even have to do anything

the laptop just does this

LMFAO

[south parcel]

its okay but not main focus

[fallen hatch]

thats not the point though

[storm hamlet]

i hate people who play no skilled stuff and think they're good

[full escarp]

like

@upbeat geyser hold on ill show u smth

1 sec

[upbeat geyser]

"I hate people having fun"

[compact whale]

what a beggining

[upbeat geyser]

mhmhhm

[placid wave]

PEAK

[peak estuary]

i hate b42 so much

[fallen hatch]

development is a broad term and for a game to develop you need people like those map designers

so its part of game dev

[peak estuary]

removing the context menu for a lot of stuff

is so stupid

[full escarp]

look at what happened once @upbeat geyser

even the map has bad graphics

[south parcel]

lmao

[peak estuary]

i love having to navigate 3 menus just to apply a bandage

[full escarp]

well

happened more than once

[upbeat geyser]

ayy at least it's 140 fps

[south parcel]

do you live in early 2000's?

[compact whale]

this is my first run on it

[peak estuary]

enjoy muscle strain

all im going to say

[uncut chasm]

@potent sand i hit 11.5k and won last game against 2k medals current lol

[full escarp]

yeah for that ONE GAME

[peak estuary]

[Server] Δράκων longjumped 260.96! (277.56, 7 @ 60%, 312)
such a noob

[hushed patrol]

Yeah and that at the cost of the other players fun

[uncut chasm]

low key asscheeks

[peak estuary]

i havent statted since 2020

[wanton moth]

idk man i'd just say the team, the dev team is part of the entire team i wouldnt call the map designers a dev, would u call the artists devs on the team??

[uncut chasm]

all good

[upbeat geyser]

I mean if they're actively griefing other players he's a POS, of course, but if he's play the way he wants to play and having fun then good for him, ig

[mighty idol]

Yeah I do. I fucking hate when games (marvel rivals. Squirrel girl. Scarlett witch, etc…) over tune characters that require no skill and make people think they’re good

[peak estuary]

283 lj pb

🥀

[uncut chasm]

ok thats nice

gj

[upbeat geyser]

Quick question, why the fuck are you red?

[mighty idol]

Go have fun in bronze where you belong

[wanton moth]

ye but squirrel girl bad af

[mighty idol]

Angry

[fallen hatch]

the thing is map design is a lot more technical than you are thinking

[mighty idol]

No she’s not you fucking furry

[storm hamlet]

i guess

[hushed patrol]

Because he’s tren.

[upbeat geyser]

oh

so he's like

the grumpy dwarf

[summer birch]

Let that FREAK KNOW

[placid wave]

marvel rivals was so brainrot

[formal bluff]

lmao

[peak estuary]

i dont think low skill heroes should be powerful

[placid wave]

idk how people enjoyed that game

[mighty idol]

I’m not short

[hushed patrol]

Hiiii synch

[next jacinth]

marvel rivals is the best game out rn

[sacred marsh]

i need someone to eat the pizas with me i got 15 slices left

[storm hamlet]

hello man

[mighty idol]

They shouldn’t be

[placid wave]

it was like overwatch but if you're retired and 50

[upbeat geyser]

I mean, if you say so, I believe you pal

[south parcel]

PLS

[storm hamlet]

i hate brawlhalla

i fucking hate brawlhalla

[summer birch]

Brazil pizza scary

[sacred marsh]

🍕

[storm hamlet]

whoever created brawlhalla needs to hurry up and go

[sacred marsh]

take one bro

[south parcel]

thank you

[peak estuary]

who are you playing

[south parcel]

i appriciate that

[next jacinth]

gta time

[hushed patrol]

I played that shit once on xbox in 2020 for xp so i could get free rewards 😭

[wanton moth]

it really isnt, the most the may need to know is basic scripting but usually its sort of like using cad in a gui environment. If this was like back in like 90s then yeah it would be technical

[storm hamlet]

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

[peak estuary]

so mordex

[next jacinth]

@fallen hatch @crisp forge lets go

[storm hamlet]

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

[peak estuary]

so mordex

[storm hamlet]

THINK OF ALL THE GAUNLET CHARCTERS

[fallen hatch]

have you ever opened a mapping program man

[storm hamlet]

THINK OF ALL THE SCYTHE CHARACTERS

[peak estuary]

there is only mordex

[hollow basalt]

Send it again I dont think he read it

[storm hamlet]

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

[fallen hatch]

i would 100% say they are part of game dev

[hushed patrol]

SPAM

[uncut chasm]

@potent sand

[hollow basalt]

Thank god

[storm hamlet]

rage bait

[south parcel]

@mods

[storm hamlet]

nah its rage bait

https://tenor.com/view/jump-cave-gif-8366204392601184116

[peak estuary]

mordex is the only gauntlet

stop trying to ragebait me

[storm hamlet]

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

aye nah

[hushed patrol]

Bro i didn’t see what synch said could you ask him to send it again?

[storm hamlet]

you're rage baiting

[upbeat geyser]

I fucking hate brawlhalla

[storm hamlet]

nice job jackass

[peak estuary]

ragebait isnt a real word

stop using it

[storm hamlet]

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

guanlet characters along with scythe characters

[wanton moth]

yes i've used hammer, and i know the basics of how unreal engine maps are made. I get where ur coming from but if u were "blaming devs" u wouldnt lump in map designers vice versa if a bad map is realeased its the map designer not the software devs

[hushed patrol]

[south parcel]

he already told that 15 times

[storm hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/knocking-head-stupid-gif-22346679

[peak estuary]

so you only play mordex

[worldly tartan]

https://tenor.com/view/freaky-sonic-gif-16480151311255377524

[storm hamlet]

nice rage bait

[fallen hatch]

im only asking because of the amount of black magic in hammer editor and in engine knowledge you need

[storm hamlet]

jack ass

[peak estuary]

or i guess there are sycthe chars

[mighty idol]

I’m 6’2

[storm hamlet]

kill me.

[mighty idol]

Grrrr

[placid wave]

we need to be more wholesome we need to start joybaiting gang

[uncut chasm]

who tf plays brawlhalla bro

[storm hamlet]

your mama

[upbeat geyser]

How's the weather there?

[uncut chasm]

get a life

[mighty idol]

Cold

[uncut chasm]

low test bot

[storm hamlet]

yap

[upbeat geyser]

Oh fuck yeah I love cold weather climbs you

[fallen hatch]

i wouldn't call them developers as shorthand like software developers but game dev its kinda muddy since its a whole team thing

[hushed patrol]

I don’t want criminal charges like @next copper has

[uncut chasm]

bro has aims in his nickname

[storm hamlet]

yap

yap

[fallen hatch]

so a lot of people will just say game developer

[storm hamlet]

yap

yap

yap

[uncut chasm]

ull never amount to anything outside of discord

[upbeat geyser]

swag

[storm hamlet]

yappppppppppppppppppppppp

[mighty idol]

Picks u up even higher

[upbeat geyser]

HOOOOOLY

[hushed patrol]

“Swag”

[upbeat geyser]

I CAN SEE MY HOUSE

[placid wave]

https://tenor.com/view/the-humble-lemon-lemon-humble-pibble-pibb-gif-17247926760724926413

[uncut chasm]

swag

[wicked heron]

hi voltaic gen

[placid wave]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/251211223012474880/1341295039921258516/output.webp?animated=true

[south parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/uni-tail-cat-tuxedo-gif-13588156360752410694

[hushed patrol]

6 hours of kovaaks is enough bro

[west shell]

bennard

[hushed patrol]

Time to log off

[storm hamlet]

@next copper help.

[south parcel]

keep the grind

dont listen to them

[violet anchor]

in the foreign switchin lanes you cant catch up

[mighty idol]

throws u up higher

[wicked heron]

nah I'm just staring at it

[wicked heron]

you get me fr

[storm hamlet]

6 hours would literally be the end of me

[wicked heron]

hi kenzo

[storm hamlet]

if i couldn't pb anything within 6 hours

[south parcel]

l take

[storm hamlet]

i would hate everything

[upbeat geyser]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[west shell]

raw input is yearning for bennard more then vt

[violet anchor]

u might genuinely be a pervert

[wicked heron]

ok ill go back

[hushed patrol]

He’s not helping you boy

[storm hamlet]

????????????

[wicked heron]

😭 ?

[potent sand]

Wait ur goated bro

Ur come up is cray

[west shell]

good choice

[violet anchor]

im sorry

[mighty idol]

Beat my whisphere pls

[uncut chasm]

thanks bro

[mighty idol]

Got 20.3k earlier today

[potent sand]

Ye ur rage baiting

[hushed patrol]

I did this today with pasu s5 and found out the bot pattern is the same as controlsphere

[mighty idol]

Whaaaa

:(

ok

[upbeat geyser]

I got 20.4k

[mighty idol]

I’m sorry

[mighty idol]

Good job!!

[storm hamlet]

also i decided to push the advanced segement

[wicked heron]

wait that's insane

[upbeat geyser]

fuck you didn't fall for the bait

[uncut chasm]

aimtraining in the big 2026 🥀

[hushed patrol]

Try it bro 😭

[storm hamlet]

lets just say i need 200 more energy for gm

[hushed patrol]

What you get

[hushed patrol]

Good job

[south parcel]

so it is controlsphere click...

[lusty oasis]

icic

[upbeat geyser]

💔

[hushed patrol]

Almost

[placid wave]

whats the point of smoothbot

you need to be smooth while reacting

[storm hamlet]

being on discord and playing video games in the big 26 💔

[upbeat geyser]

to smooth the bot

[crisp forge]

@fallen hatch hop on

[next copper]

it was long time ago

[next copper]

why

[placid wave]

reactive > anything

[uncut chasm]

truth

[storm hamlet]

we should all stop playing video games in 26

[unkempt fulcrum]

Oh shoot my mouse died

[fallen hatch]

ill check my email

[unkempt fulcrum]

it’s wired btw @sour totem

[south parcel]

no

[unkempt fulcrum]

loool

[wicked heron]

I see it now but I never noticed

[sour totem]

cool

[wicked heron]

that's insane

[storm hamlet]

i hate brawlhalla

[unkempt fulcrum]

Gimme sec

[hushed patrol]

Have you realized that s5 pasu almost has 1:1 patterns as controlsphere

[south parcel]

we should make video games better than real sports

[sour totem]

idk how you're not bored yet

this shit is boring

[placid wave]

yes bro its a aim trainer scen with no use

reactivity has everything you need

[upbeat geyser]

I agree on that

[south parcel]

for smoothbot ts

[fallen hatch]

their email response

was to submit a form to the place i submitted a form

[hushed patrol]

Me either until i was bored 😭

[unkempt fulcrum]

I used to pg like 10 hours daily

[sour totem]

I am over here playing 1%

I think 400 dpi

and turbo build off

I'm just bored

[hushed patrol]

Brawlstars in the big 26

[unborn wolf]

https://tenor.com/view/luffy-gordo-luffy-gordinho-gif-25125796

im such a chud

[south parcel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/920709476724649984/1311431887331393566/togif.gif

[placid wave]

smoothbot is a evil scenario made by aim trainer mains to stroke their shit to

[unborn wolf]

i fell for it

[unkempt fulcrum]

If I flick too hard the midori cable jus breaks

[sour totem]

brother how are you even flicking

there is no flicks needed in this game

?

[unkempt fulcrum]

it’s fun

[south parcel]

thats skill issue

[sour totem]

No like

genuinely how

I don't think i could force one

unless I'm doing 360's

[unkempt fulcrum]

I have flick playstyle

[unborn wolf]

nah your just evil

[upbeat geyser]

aim trainer lose their effectiveness quickly and it's just a way for good aimers to stroke their ego

[unkempt fulcrum]

makes it look like im cheating cus

flick playstyle fun tho

[formal bluff]

i only play tdms rn 😭

[unborn wolf]

shi happens

[south parcel]

tdms are goated

only mode i can play in this game

[upbeat geyser]

(Eg. Shimmy)

[placid wave]

truth nuke but there is some stuff to get better at

[upbeat geyser]

Yeah I agree

[placid wave]

and that does translate in game

[hushed patrol]

Hiiiiiiiiiuhy

[formal bluff]

my aim is too bad for comp rn sadly 🙁

[south parcel]

but that doesnt make sense

[placid wave]

quake lg mains and kovaaks mains are both horrible at actual games

while making fun of eachother they are the same people

[south parcel]

if u can do good in tdm, ur aim gotta be enough for comp

[upbeat geyser]

Exactly lol

[south parcel]

gamesense is leaking

[peak estuary]

@storm hamlet so you play this guy

[upbeat geyser]

the fucking furry?

[formal bluff]

mostly been working on movements

@south parcel what you think of my skins

[placid wave]

one thing i still don't get is why there are so many valo players here

you don't need aim for valo

why are you here ?

[south parcel]

loves op, vand is ok, not into phantom, the sheriff is ok

[formal bluff]

see :3

[south parcel]

guadrian is cool

[formal bluff]

because aimtraining is fun

[storm hamlet]

can we please ban this guy

[placid wave]

fair enough my fault

[formal bluff]

fr

[meager meteor]

ragebait...

[south parcel]

it decrease but never vanishes.

[upbeat geyser]

That's actually the only thing I haven't said to ragebait tonight lmao

[south parcel]

the roi drops

and thats it

[meager meteor]

dni my shark is cooler than urs

[upbeat geyser]

sharks!

but have you got an Esquie plushie on your desk

[brave leaf]

ragebaiting is how you spend your time?

[mighty idol]

So wanting to climb on me was nothing but rage bait

:(

[upbeat geyser]

No that was actually really fun

Hiking a mountain was always my goal

[fallen hatch]

ok i emailed them again

[mighty idol]

Promise?

[placid wave]

little bit of ragebait is fun

[upbeat geyser]

promise!

[meager meteor]

no i have a shark

[mighty idol]

:)

[mighty idol]

are u sure ur not…