yeah anime pussy
#off-topic
nova dome
someone's angry they've never gotten laid and still can't
damn bro im sorry
they just don't want you
nova dome
you know not all anime has underaged girls, right?
hoary salmon
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
nova dome
ah yes, is this the famous cry of the debatelord
hoary salmon
who's debating u
told u to shut up and its not working so i guess ignoring u could work too
nova dome
the thing you should've done from the start instead of saying stupid shit lmao
cyan isle
brittle pike
Binmagine
cyan isle
Tips to getting laid regularly: watch anime, have m'lady vibe texts in your info.
brittle pike
just get laid bro
nova dome
I mean, not knowing song lyrics and trying to make fun of someone for their pfp is big small diick energy
can't imagine any of you in this chat get laid very often
brittle pike
Bin
cyan isle
brittle pike
creatively binkrupt
robust burrow
well he is once again right
Living in angola
hard time getting laid properly for me
this has nothing to do with anime being shit tho
rapid atlas
anime 
nova dome
anime 
rare ruin
can't imagine any of you in this chat get laid very often
Ill have you know that I never got laid and I don’t make fun of people’s pfp
Is this an anomaly?
main trout
cringe fight
orchid hatch
nova dome
lol
tacit nest
brittle pike
BIN
cyan isle
chilly ibex
Bin weeb
random summit
The OS for skyhold users
robust burrow
Michaelsoft
cyan isle
chilly ibex
The OS for skyhold users
YOOOOO
chilly ibex
hoary stag
main trout
mortal forum
@warm forum do you still raid
warm forum
sadly yes
mortal forum
What are you on, slg/sire?
storm siren
chilly ibex
Bin bugs
fierce stump
nova dome
cyan isle
nova dome
rofl
hollow hemlock
@sterile wharf How do you feel about capitalism?
hoary salmon
sterile wharf
<@!61282228017041408> How do you feel about capitalism?
I feel like most people don't understand how companies work
sterile wharf
No system is wholly good or bad, if there were a flawless one, it would probably be in use somewhere
hollow hemlock
We live in a society
hollow hemlock
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron"
hoary salmon
the bin man binned his head solemnly and spoke: "bin actually zero difference between bin & bin things. you bin. you fucking bin"
hollow hemlock
🕐
brittle pike
:bin: :bin1:
normal prawn
hollow hemlock
That's 200million dollar less in my pocket
cyan isle
rare ruin
Because I live in a society
lmao
hollow hemlock
Based Archi 
hoary salmon
stop smoking donkey shit
rare ruin
that's donkism
hoary salmon
bin
rare ruin
I feel like most people don't understand how companies work
Yes. Every time I see a new post on wow subreddit about "muh Blizzard ceo get money from firing people" "blizz bad firing people"
I just roll my eyes
hoary salmon
yikes
paying your employees slave wages but "compensating" it with in-game items
just how companies work lol
obviously it exists everywhere and not just blizzard but saying "just how it is" is completely retarded
hoary salmon
min wage
rare ruin
If it doesn't require anything like a diploma
rare ruin
THen yeah they're not gonna be paying you a shiton of money for no reason
This is common sense
hoary salmon
ofc not
brittle pike
Company can afford massive bonuses for top boss but not swapping in-game item rewards for actual monetary remunerations 3head
definition of bin
hoary salmon
just how company works bro they dont have to pay employees looohl
brittle pike
it'll all trickle down soon
rare ruin
paying your employees slave wages but "compensating" it with in-game items
They didn't just compensate them with ingame items, they also got severance packages and something else I can't remember
hoary salmon
let me know when you can remember
rare ruin
ok lmao
hoary salmon
Twitter
must be fake news
wait wrong link
Twitter
200$ battlenet gift cards can sure pay the rent poggers
rare ruin
Oh yeah, it was a year of health benefits I forgot
hoary salmon
i suppose having healthcare for a year when youre homeless is good
rare ruin
So you don't think any of these people are gonna get another job? lmao
hoary salmon
just get a job lol
rare ruin
If you want to live and not be homeless, you're gonna have to get a job
It's that simple
hoary salmon
if only i was as smart as you
tacit jasper
i bet bobby has a pet, bin animal abuse
sterile wharf
paying your employees slave wages but "compensating" it with in-game items
see, this is why it's hard to have a serious conversation on the matter, because a lot of people are either
A) Clueless
B) Biased
C) Unwilling to see any other perspective
hoary salmon
Oh well i guess all the articles, reports and blizzard employees speaking out is fake news my bad im clueless
sterile wharf
I didn't say anything about fake news, nor did I say you were necessarily clueless
brittle pike
anyone with bin in their name is clueless
hoary salmon
Cant see how big boss getting paid while normal people are barely able to pay the rent is a different perspective, maybe if youre bobby kotic
sterile wharf
Well first off, Activision employees aren't "barely able to pay rent" nor are do they all work in Orange County where the cost of living is exorbitantly high
By the way, I lived there for about 5 years, so I do in fact know exactly what I'm talking about
But let's take your $200 gift card as an example -
Yeah, laid off employees got a $200 gift card
- Tongue in cheek? Sure
- Insensitive? Sure
- Lacking compensation? Nope
They also got (at least) 90 days severance and a full year of health benefits (arguably much more important)
And by the way, the state of CA doesn't require any compensation for laid off employees (individual contractual agreements notwithstanding)
so that was all extra
Does it suck to get laid off? Absofuckinglutely - no argument there
But they were compensated, and fairly generously, all things considered
hoary salmon
What about employees that arent laid off but get in game items as "bonuses"?
sterile wharf
There's also things like unemployment, etc
none of them get "in game items" as bonuses, they get battle.net bucks as a perk of working there
but that is just a perk, and frankly it's a better perk than they used to get, which was game time cards
hoary salmon
Pretty sure stuff like that happened, could look up in google and find plenty examples
sterile wharf
I am intimately familiar
I wanna say it was around 2015 or something they stopped giving out game time cards (used to all employees got a 25 year wow sub card for themselves upon joining Blizz, and 2x 1 year cards per year to give out to friends) and switched over to annual bnet bucks, which are objectively more useful
hoary salmon
They pay for may useful stuff like food and rent
sterile wharf
Now, I'm not going to try to argue that the economic employment standards or industry payscales are necessarily fair, but these people
A) are not broke and starving or unable to pay rent - yes some of the lower payscale people struggle more (QA, etc), but that's the nature of any corporation which employs non-skilled, non-experienced positions
B) Are not being given these "perks" in lieu of their regular pay
You're acting like instead of a paycheck, they're given bnet bucks, which is not only outright wrong, it's laughable
Yes, they're given bnet bucks in addition to getting paid twice a month, just like I get free wowhead premium as a perk, but also still get paid
hoary salmon
I could bring up examples but theres no point
sterile wharf
You could, but I'm telling you I have first hand experience
hoary salmon
Your experience might not be the same as other employees
sterile wharf
🙄
Everyone who works there gets a paycheck my dude
and nobody's paycheck is skimmed in order to give them bnet bucks
first off, that's illegal
second off, it's beyond stupid
Now, can we argue that some people don't necessarily make "enough" money (although what constitutes "enough" is up for interpretation)? Certainly, but that's less of an Activision problem and more of an industry standard problem
Note: that doesn't make it right, but it is the fact of the matter
hoary salmon
Sure
sterile wharf
Ok, so now that we've agreed that
A) The laid off employees did in fact receive fairly decent compensation packages
B) The current employees do in fact get regular paychecks
We can move onto C) the egregious bonuses given to CEOs like Bobby K
brittle pike
No one is suggesting that current employees don't get paid a salary
hoary salmon
sterile wharf
no, the implication was that they're compensated through "bonus" bucks, rather than actual money, which is a falsity
brittle pike
The suggestion is that whilst the guy at the top gets $200m stock options and those at the bottom get nothing, there's a moral disconnect
And by nothing, I include in-game items and fake money
sterile wharf
That would fall under C, which we were moving onto, thanks
brittle pike
That's not what is being moved onto, that's the entire point from the get go
sterile wharf
and fwiw, Bobby K also gets that "fake money", so technically the employees aren't given that 'instead" so much as "also"
brittle pike
Define the fake moeny ol' Bobby gets
normal prawn
stock
sterile wharf
no
normal prawn
and assets can be "fake money"
sterile wharf
no
hoary salmon
Fake 400m
brittle pike
Oh so assets
normal prawn
but not as fake as Bnet balance
sterile wharf
holy shit let me talk
You said
And by nothing, I include in-game items and fake money
Bobby K gets that too, all employees do
hoary salmon
holy shit let me talk
How many paragraphs have you posted shilling?
sterile wharf
So again, the lesser employees aren't given that "instead"
they're given that "as well"
brittle pike
In that case, that detracts from lower employees getting it
sterile wharf
I'm not shilling anything, I'm explaining how shit works
brittle pike
If the top boss gets what every other employee gets then it decreases the inherent value for the lower employees
sterile wharf
In that case, that detracts from lower employees getting it
no it doesn't, it just means they get paid less than the CEO, which while we may think that's horrendous, is a pretty standard part of our economic structure
brittle pike
It does when he gets massive monetary remunerations to boot
sterile wharf
Now anyway, since we agree that all employees do draw paychecks and their paychecks aren't docked in order to give them bnet balance instead
not to say they're necessarily paid "enough" (however that much may be)
cyan isle
Omg why are people arguing about shit thats none of your business, doesn't affect you and you have no clue how big corps work. Big corps have always and will always "exploit_" employees, especially low rank ones.
sterile wharf
Bobby K draws obscene bonuses - fact
Virtually all big corporation CEOs do - fact
Is it egregious? Yup
Is it horrendous? Sure
Is it fair to everyone else? No not really
hoary salmon
Omg why are people arguing about shit thats none of your business, doesn't affec...
Effects the videogame i play 🙂
sterile wharf
But Activision isn't really doing anything any other company doesn't, that's how our economy is designed - he is paid what the market will bear, therefore (in economic terms) he's paid what he's worth
again, not to say it's fair
Would it be nice if all those bonuses were taken away and funneled back into the employees? Hell yeah, I'd be all for it
He'd still be well off, but everyone else would be a whole lot more well off too
brittle pike
He's paid what others deem he is worth, his actual value is extremely arguable
sterile wharf
Sure, but that doesn't change the fact
he's paid what the market deems he is worth
however abstract you want to make it out to be, it's still a fact of the matter
brittle pike
Some of Actiblizz' shareholders have disagreed
sterile wharf
And?
brittle pike
And not all investors believe he's worth that
sterile wharf
Sure but that doesn't change the fact
brittle pike
So no blanket statement can be made
sterile wharf
My point is that if it wasn't Bobby K in the driver's seat, it'd be someone else, and they'd be drawing down the same (relative) bonuses
Because that's how much the company is willing to spend on a "good" CEO
brittle pike
Potentially, doesn't make it acceptable
sterile wharf
That's fair, but everyone has a different definition of acceptable
I'm not arguing right or wrong, I'm explaining why it is the way it is
It's no different from athletes drawing down obscene amounts of money for relatively little work throughout the year
or movie stars, or hell porn stars
brittle pike
Sure, it's subjective but we're talking about a $200m stock option extra vs something that is arguably nothing when the person gaining that stock also gains the extras other employees get
sterile wharf
So your argument is what? The CEO shouldn't have access to extra bonuses that regular employees don't?
brittle pike
On top of previously delayed bonuses of $20m cash
I'm not arguing anything, besides that Kotick is a disgusting subhuman pos
sterile wharf
I agree CEO bonuses and salaries are egregious, but more so the amount than the fact that they get bonuses
I mean ok, but why Kotick?
Why don't you hate athletes and movie stars for the same reason?
brittle pike
Because he's the subject of this conversation
I feel the same way about anyone in his situation or similar
sterile wharf
Ok so your issue is more that nobody should be making that much money?
Not so much that Kotick specifically does, yes?
brittle pike
No, not nobody; people should earn what is deserved based on effort and result to a point
sterile wharf
And who decides that?
brittle pike
I do believe that billionaires shouldn't exist; there is no need
Gov
Hence minimum wage and tax bands
sterile wharf
ok well... I hate to break it to you, but that's exactly the situation we exist in
sterile wharf
lmao, I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint
brittle pike
It obviously hasn't happened unless Blizz employees only deserve blizz bucks
sterile wharf
Except Blizz employees don't only get blizz bucks
brittle pike
We're talking bonuses
sterile wharf
I don't know why you keep going back to that clearly false point
Blizz employees get more bonuses than blizz bucks
brittle pike
We're talking extras--salaries should be negotiable during hiring/employment
sterile wharf
they get profit sharing on new releases (games/expacs)
Their salaries are negotiated during hiring
the bonuses are given on top of that (and are not even part of that negotiation process, again I can tell you from experience)
sterile wharf
You keep going back to this blizz bucks point like they're being given that in lieu of other compensation, but that's simply not true - they're given it in addition to
brittle pike
Not saying in lieu of anything
sterile wharf
bin — Today at 8:32 AM It obviously hasn't happened unless Blizz employees only deserve blizz bucks
brittle pike
I mean, this is semantics, only/in lieu of ain't the same
sterile wharf
I literally just told you the other bonuses employees get
they also get profit sharing on new releases (games/expacs)
some of them do get stock options (higher ups mostly, for obvious reasons)
just like pretty much every other giant corp in the country
brittle pike
But I go back to the point you made, Bob gets the same virtual currency/items so I struggle to see how they're extras for lower employees
sterile wharf
they're extras to everyone
brittle pike
Except they're not if it's standard for all employees regardless of position, especially when figures like $20m are thrown around
sterile wharf
You're conflating these things
I didn't say "all employees all get the same bonuses"
I said "all employees get that bonus"
brittle pike
I mean, I'm not, I'm being pretty consistent
sterile wharf
I didn't say you were inconsistent, I said you were conflating
brittle pike
Then I've been conflating the entire time
sterile wharf
you have, which is why I've been trying to explain it to you
Let's look at it from another angle
- You and I both work at a restaurant - I'm a cook and you're the owner
As a "bonus", everyone who works there get 5 free meals a week or whatever
except as the owner, you also get an extra bonus of profit sharing based on how well the restaurant does
brittle pike
I mean, that's a bit apples and oranges... free meals have actual real-world value
sterile wharf
the fact that you get a bonus I don't doesn't devalue the bonus that I do get
sterile wharf
I mean strictly speaking, if you were going to spend money on battlenet, then bnet bucks also save you money
brittle pike
Sure but if it's a choice between food and bnet stuff
sterile wharf
only if you're so poor you cant afford food
which they aren't
and again we're operating under the premise that they were probably going to spend it anyway
anyway, the point was that the fact that you get an extra bonus I don't doesn't invalidate the bonus that I do get (we both get)
brittle pike
https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/blizzard-frustrated-employees-fight-for-higher-wages/z02176?
In the 2018 conversations, there are even tips on how to survive to the proverbial "first" on the money paid by Blizzard. There is talk about skipping some meals to pay rent, or using free company coffee as a way to prevent hunger. One of the employees mentions that he decided to eat oatmeal for a whole month and avoided lunches with the rest of the team because he could not afford the food sold in the company canteen. Another person admitted that due to the poor financial situation, they had to abandon the plan to enlarge their family for the time being.
sterile wharf
you get an extra bonus because you have a higher position which commands increased compensation
Yeah I'm not going to address every random unsubstantiated thing people may have said, everyone there draws a paycheck and nobody is paid so little that they can't afford to live - whether they can adequately manage the money they do get is another matter entirely
hoary salmon
Its weird how you started this whole thing about people might be biased while you work/worked for blizzard and make money off their game
sterile wharf
I've seen plenty of people paid very good money who handle it irresponsibly to the point where they can't afford to live - that's not their employers fault
and again, am I saying that Activision employees don't get paid "enough"? No, I'd love it if they got paid more and I'm sure they would too
Military is a good example, it doesn't pay particularly well, but provides a lot of perks (such as housing, medical/dental, & meals) to the point where service members generally have very little expenses
a smart one can pocket virtually everything they make... and yet an alarming number still manage to go broke by Monday simply because they have zero financial awareness
errant summit
very true
sterile wharf
It's rampant in the military, lol
and there's a lot of reasons for it - not all necessarily due to personal failures
silent dove
to be fair they could get payed more if activision wanted but they would rather cut corners,fire people,hire the same positions for less and keep dumping money on bob
hoary salmon
trueee
sterile wharf
to be fair they could get payed more if activision wanted but they would rather ...
I mean I'm not disagreeing with that, but that's also virtually every big corporation in the country (or world, really)
silent dove
i dont see how can you defend anything they do at this point. and just fyi i dont mean you specifically i mean anyone lol
hoary salmon
big facts
brittle pike
I'd imagine the extra perks you get in the military (same here in the UK--you get "free" education and the chance to work towards degrees and higher if not just NVQs and GNVQs) is to encourage people to sign up because, let's face it, the military is not a nice thing to be in
sterile wharf
you can explain things without defending it
hoary salmon
just because other companies do it
silent dove
the effort to explain things as draconic as this leaves a sour taste tho
sterile wharf
I mean yeah the fact that other companies do it kind of does justify it, I'm sorry to say
because that sets an industry standard
that's literally what the term means
hoary salmon
good 1
sterile wharf
it's shitty, for sure
silent dove
did they ever mention the positions of the people that " couldnt afford to live with the wages they were given" ?
i mean if they were something like game testers. i can see if they lived in high price areas
sterile wharf
Not in the artciles, but it's mostly QA
sterile wharf
because yeah, they're unskilled and untrained employees
and they're simply not going to command high salaries
silent dove
yeah thats what i mean. its cherrypicked scenarios
sterile wharf
I mean seriously, people would give their left nut to "play games for a living"
they would literally do it for free if they had the chance
brittle pike
The salaries should be offered at a living wage
sterile wharf
and that's exactly why they don't command high salaries
silent dove
yep but in reality they arent
sterile wharf
because if someone says "i'm sorry I wont do this for less than 40k a year", the company says "that's ok, there's a dozen people over there who will"
and again, that doesn't make it right
but it is the fact of the matter
brittle pike
Which loops back to the original point of grossly disgusting extra bonuses for the top and very little, if anything, of substance for the bottom
sterile wharf
the only way to stop it would be if every person in the country (or world in this case) collectively refused to work for less than X
to the point where the company couldn't find anyone to do the job for less
silent dove
bin we all know activision is a scumbag company what he means is that all companies do it. blizzard is just in the radar
sterile wharf
(which is more or less the basic premise for work unions and governmental mandated minimum wages)
brittle pike
Standardised minimum wages
sterile wharf
but that's a much bigger conversation
brittle pike
One that's not gonna happen over your side of the pond for a long time, now
sterile wharf
because it gets into all sorts of other issues, like the cost of living in NYC versus rural Kentucky, as @silent dove brought up
it simply isn't that simple
silent dove
when a company can literally shut down a whole warehouse to stop unionizing. then we got a bigger problem
sterile wharf
I mean yeah, kind of a tangential to this conversation, but I agree
silent dove
look at amazon last big union attempt
they just fired everyone
hired new people in days
silent dove
walmart/amazon shrug
sterile wharf
but yes, that's definitely a thing, and again why there's no real good solution to this problem
brittle pike
Well, that shows how depressing a situation we're in if it's likely that both Amazon and Wallmart did the same
With seemingly little to no recourse
sterile wharf
I mean you're right it is, but it's the way the world works lol
anyway, getting back to the topic at hand
brittle pike
It's all kind of the same topic at this point lol
Capitalism bad, no really it actually is
sterile wharf
I agree with you @brittle pike, it is egregious that Bobby K gets millions in bonuses when his employees get, for simplicities sake we'll say "mediocre" compensation
silent dove
yeah like this is capitalist mecca here. if its gona change. it will change in other countries first. usa will probably resist for the longest
sterile wharf
but the piece of the picture that most people miss is that the two things aren't really related
CEO bonuses aren't drawn from salaries
silent dove
to be fair archimtiros. there is alot of links with the firings and the bonuses. i know its speculation but they literally always happen right besides the other.
brittle pike
No, they're drawn from profits, which could go straight back into the company to improve working conditions, reward staff properly, etc., etc.
sterile wharf
salaries and employee compensation is mostly driven by that industry standard that I brought up earlier (with a little wiggle room, sure), but no company is just going to pay everyone 2x because they can (even if they 'should', ethically speaking)
sterile wharf
to be fair archimtiros. there is alot of links with the firings and the bonuses....
na man
I know it looks that way
but its' really not true (and I was just getting to that point if you give me a sec)
First of all, the layoffs were reported a few days ago
Kotick's most recent bonus went into effect at the start of the month
brittle pike
I think we all know the cycle of hirings and firings is linked to the development and then support thereafter and is an attempt to show consistent growth... the fact that cost cutting will be tied to director bonuses is a link, albeit indirect, to firing staff
sterile wharf
it's not though
first of all, Koticks bonus wasn't out of the blue
it was written into his contract five years ago
and hinged on a sustaining stock performance for a period of 90 consecutive days
brittle pike
There'd be clauses written into the contract
brittle pike
In its entirety?
silent dove
i thought being a construction worker was bad. remember job stability? christ..
sterile wharf
TLDR: If incentive kicks in if the company sustains a 90-day stock price which more than doubled the average stock price during Quarter 4 of 2016, when Kotick’s employment agreement went into effect
At the time, the company's average stock price was around $38, requiring a sustained stock price of more than $77 over a three month period in order to trigger the incentive.
You can see that here
brittle pike
And what impacts stock value?
sterile wharf
and that didn't happen (those 90 consecutive days) until just this last three months
so if you're telling me that the company engineered the situation just to give him money
why the fuck didn't they do it any time in the last 5 years?
brittle pike
No
I'm saying that the stock value entirely depends on profitability, which is impacted directly by cost of sales
sterile wharf
in fact, it almost triggered in 2018
Sure, and it shouldn't be any surprise to anyone that Activision has been extremely profitable
brittle pike
And admin expenses, but I'm getting at empoloyee salaries here
In-game item and currency is zero cost to them
sterile wharf
I mean not techincally
presuming that "currency" is spent in lieu of real dollars, it does represent an opportunity cost
brittle pike
That's debatable
sterile wharf
no it's not
e.g. if you were going to pay a wow sub, the company is losing revenue by giving you one for free
full stop
brittle pike
It is, in the same way that piracy isn't out and out opportunity cost
sterile wharf
if you weren't going to pay a wow sub, but the company gave you one for free, then it's neutral - nothing was gained or lost (arguably you might gain some by other associated purchases, but we're getting into a whole other ball of tangentials)
But anyway, my point was that this recent round of layoffs had zero impact on triggering Kotick's bonus
brittle pike
If you're given something for free, you'll likely use it but if it's at your own expense then you're less likely--given these people work for Blizz it's understandable they're Blizzard product fans so will likely already be playing or start, sure, but it'd be impossible to work out direct cost to the company
sterile wharf
I didn't say it wouldn't be hard to work out
brittle pike
It's not just recent, though, is it? If this is a clause from 5 years ago, it'd be any cost cutting and revenue increases from then
sterile wharf
but by your own admission, they were likely to spend, and so by the company giving it to them for free, they lost revenue
brittle pike
Sure, but the cost to the company is zero
sterile wharf
loss of revenue is a cost
if you're going to call cut salaries profits, then I can call loss of potential revenue a cost
sterile wharf
Anyway, it's recent in that the clause was triggered by a sustained 90 day stock performance
e.g. Dec, Jan, Feb
Considering that the layoffs weren't even announced until March
it's impossible for them to have factored into the stock performance months prior
Now, could past layoffs (and hirings, keep in mind they did hire quite a lot of new developers over the last year and a half)? Sure
But Blizz stock hasn't only gone up either, it's ebbed and flowed, the way most stocks do
speaking frankly though, unless it's egregious, layoffs generally don't impact the stock market
like you fire half your company
which ATVI has never even come close to
brittle pike
THe double value is based upon stock price at any point between Oct 16 and Dec 21, the 90 days just refers to the period it has to sustain that value, so previous layoffs between these dates to count
sterile wharf
no it's based on the average
but again
it didn't kick in until March 1st, as a result of performance i the three months prior
brittle pike
So it doesn't just apply to the recent redundancies
sterile wharf
Yes that's what I said
I also said that past layoffs (and hirings, keep in mind they did hire quite a lot of new developers over the last year and a half), "could" be factored, but they were so long ago that it's impossible to draw a straight line from one to the other
brittle pike
So you can see that making employees redundant is a way of decreasing costs/maximising profits and therefore increasing stock value?
sterile wharf
yeah, except like I said, it's not really that black and white
first off, they didn't just lay people off - they also hired a ton of new devs
brittle pike
It's a major contributing factor
sterile wharf
not even
brittle pike
Of course it is as the employees aren't hired and fired in the same financial year
sterile wharf
I mean some of them are
brittle pike
Some, sure
sterile wharf
But second, the last big round of layoffs were in Feb 2019, and I'll go ahead and post this picture of their 5 year performance and see what the stock did during that time
brittle pike
But the majority of the huge amount that gets announced won't be
brittle pike
Won't be hired/fired same year
context
And the graph, stock slowly climbed during 2019
sterile wharf
Yeah it did
but where did it start spiking?
And how coincidentally does that line up with the release of Black Ops Cold War, CoD Mobile, WoW: Classic, Shadowlands
Crash Bandicoot, Tony Hawk
how many others do I need to name? lol
brittle pike
Sure, game and expac releases--what will be interesting will be that little drop and the coming value from these redundancies
hoary hinge
Theres tony hawk on bnet?
sterile wharf
it's not on bnet, but it is Activision
Point is, think that a relatively small number of employees being laid off had a significant impact on stock performance two years later is silly
next to the extreme success they've seen out of their core franchises (mainly CoD)
brittle pike
I mean, if you don't think cutting a large portion of fairly paid salaries won't impact profits then that's for you
sterile wharf
large portion is debateable
brittle pike
I think waht we're coming down to is that you think Bobby is fairly remunerated, at least in the sense of deserved bonuses per contractual obligations
sterile wharf
I didn't say that
I said I think his bonuses are egregious
and even unfair (to the rest of the world)
and I agreed, nobody needs that amount of money
brittle pike
No but it's what I've inferred from this discussion--you can think that an amount is disgustingly high but also that it's deserving per contract
brittle pike
And that's where I disagree
sterile wharf
I mean, it's a legal document, I've shown it to you
brittle pike
Yeah but I disagree with the deserving part
sterile wharf
it's in writing, if they didn't give it to him there'd be an epic lawsuit which he would assuredly win
No, you disagree with the existing part
brittle pike
I do think it shouldn't exist, sure, but no I truly think Bob isn't deserving of it
sterile wharf
If I sign a letter agreeing to sell you my car for $1, then you deserve my car for $1
whether it's fair to people who have to pay $30k for the same car is irrelevant
you deserve what you were promised
brittle pike
That's not an agreement based on performance of other people
sterile wharf
honestly that's irrelevant
brittle pike
It's not
sterile wharf
yes it is, it was part of his contract and it was fufilled
hence, he earned it - whether the contract was "fair" to everyone in the world is another matter entirely
brittle pike
Based upon the performance of the company that isn't solely defining of his contribuitions
sterile wharf
it is as far as that part of the contract is concerned
brittle pike
And I believe he doesn't deserve it
sterile wharf
Doesn't matter what you believe, it's in writing, signed and agreed upon
I don't believe you should have to pay to see a doctor in this country... but you do
I can't just pretend it doesn't exist
brittle pike
I'm not arguing the legality, never have, Bob doesn't deserve $200m stock options on top of deferred £20m cash bonuses
brittle pike
I mean, he doesn't deserve the cash bonuses, either
It is
He has done nothing deserving of that amount of money
sterile wharf
He does if he fulfilled the contractual obligation
you just don't think they are fair
brittle pike
I also put it to you that he never will, eithr
sterile wharf
TBF, you don't really have any understanding of what he does
brittle pike
Sure
sterile wharf
most people wouldn't
brittle pike
But you do, ofc
sterile wharf
that's not an insult, just a fact of the matter that people who don't engage in that kind of business don't really have any idea of the going ons
silent dove
so what does a ceo do in a gaming company
sterile wharf
I have a slightly better idea, since this kind of research is a big part of my job
silent dove
does he actually give any kind of guidance to game developers
sterile wharf
like to the WoW devs or whatever specifically? no
he is far and away divorced from making WoW or any other game
silent dove
i legit have no clue what he does. i just imagine him foaming at the mouth while yelling " more lootboxes " to the sky
sterile wharf
Yeah, no
silent dove
xD
sterile wharf
By the way, if all of this pisses you off, you should also know that he's on the board of directors for another big company as well 🙃
Maybe you've heard of it, Coca-Cola? Yeah, no profitability there
silent dove
isnt he like on a shit ton of boards
brittle pike
He's ultimately responsible for the way the company is run and will be answerable to shareholds and board of directors, basically
sterile wharf
yes, but that's not really an explanation of his day to day
silent dove
yeah i get that but how does he affect the gaming developtment
brittle pike
It affects the way the company is run, financial controls, etc., less so about how a product will turn out
silent dove
besides shit canning teams that dont perform or buy out other companies that get absorbed
sterile wharf
but anyway, my whole point was that thinking a relatively small number of employees being laid off had a significant impact on stock performance two years later is silly, next to the extreme success they've seen out of their core franchises (mainly CoD and box releases)
brittle pike
The extreme success will mask the impact of redundancies
sterile wharf
e.g. the 2019 layoffs were ~800 people, out of a company that employed ~15,000
and many of them were temps and Destiny expats who had no reason to work there anymore, considering Bungie split
silent dove
it really feels like hes just riding the gravy train down. like i know there are intricacies that he probably deals with but like. id like to see a list named lol
what makes this man actually be worth 200million bonuses
sterile wharf
they also used that freed up money to hire new devs to increase content, which is frankly good for everyone - it's good for the company and the gamers who enjoy their games
silent dove
what deluge did he avoid that the board keeps him there
sterile wharf
no company lays people off to give their CEO bigger bonuses, at least no company that remains profitable long
silent dove
werent they hiring for far less wages after the firings tho
sterile wharf
no
silent dove
or was that just coincidence
sterile wharf
not even
brittle pike
The bonuses are a biproduct of redundancies, which are a cost cutting procedure
sterile wharf
no they aren't
sterile wharf
or was that just coincidence
idk where you heard that from, but it's not true
sterile wharf
first off, they laid off mostly lower tier positions, but hired more devs (which generally command higher salaries)
silent dove
but my memory still there
people applying and getting offered so and so with pictures of contracts and such
and then comparing to usual standards for their professions
sterile wharf
e.g. they laid off a lot of marketing, temp QA, etc that they didn't need anymore with Bungie gone, but hired a lot of actual game devs
silent dove
again this is all twitter
sterile wharf
I mean yeah that stuff happens sometimes, like I know some temp QA people who were let go and then applied back for permanent positions
or moving from like regional marketing to global
but for the most part, they got rid of positions they didn't need anymore, so those positions weren't just refilled
hoary salmon
anyways where do we get to the point of being unbiased and working for blizzard
sterile wharf
Not sure what you mean
unbiased means you can see both sides of the position, such as how I can agree that yes Bobby K makes way too much damn money, but I can also recognize why the company offered those bonuses, put them in his contract, and then paid him - they didn't just maliciously decide to fire a bunch of people and use that money to get strippers and blow
silent dove
heh
sterile wharf
Because that's the way people try to frame it
"they fired people so they could pay him $200m"
well no, that's an obscenely fucking stupid way to interpret it
silent dove
im sure they got enough money to get strippers and blow without a corporate handout
brittle pike
I didn't frame it in that way what so ever
brittle pike
I'm the only one who has spoken on that and by wrapping it in quotes suggests it's a quote
silent dove
imagine them putting that in their tax deducts " thats kandy with a K btw"
sterile wharf
see, that's an example of bias - stop tryin to make it about yourself lol
if I wanted to quote you, I'd have actually quoted you, the way I did two or three times already
brittle pike
I mean, I'm not
sterile wharf
like this
It should also be pointed out, that while the bonus that Kotick got is obscene, it's not "really" $200m either
brittle pike
No, it's $200m in stock options
sterile wharf
they gave him extra stock shares, which are currently valued at $200m
brittle pike
So potentially way in excess of $200m
sterile wharf
depending on what the market does, sure
but it would be completely fucking impossible to move them for anywhere near that
sterile wharf
Yeah he's definitely making money off it
but the point was that they didn't cut him a check for 200m
or hand him a briefcase full of bills
they didn't take all the salary checks from those laid off employees and sign them over in his name
silent dove
im all up for discusion but stocks are pretty much cash in hand. its not like cripto. you can just trade it into money in a moments notice. at least in the small sums i deal with
brittle pike
Ofc not, same with the $20m cash bonuses previously, they'll be deferred over however many years
sterile wharf
unless the SIF decides to buy a shit ton more ATVI stock, he really can't move it (nor would he want to, since it would probably bankrupt the fucking company, but still)
hollow hemlock
Does Actiblizz pay dividends?
hoary salmon
they buyma
hollow hemlock
im all up for discusion but stocks are pretty much cash in hand. its not like cr...
That is absolutely not how stocks work
silent dove
thats what i said
hollow hemlock
If you try to sell 200mil in stocks at once the price will fall significantly
silent dove
well yeah obv someone that get handed 200m worth of stock options wont literally up and sell it all
hollow hemlock
How much is the net worth of actiblizz
sterile wharf
also he already had ~4mil shares (and went up to 6 iirc)
brittle pike
I mean, you'd not sell anyway, they were free
hollow hemlock
8bil apparently, company defo wouldn't die but they'd take a hit
brittle pike
Bobby fucking bigbol Kotick has enough money, doesn't need a cash injection atm
sterile wharf
in 2021 i think 20 bil
sterile wharf
yeah they skyrocketed over the last year, but then again they also had several big back to back releases
in fairness, the same thing happened between 2017 and 2019, and then they sunk loooooow until ~ mid 2020
hollow hemlock
Most successful entertainment companies went up a lot during covid
hoary salmon
Bobby fucking bigbol Kotick has enough money, doesn't need a cash injection atm
wrong
sterile wharf
Yeah, but I wouldn't chalk it all up to Covid
hollow hemlock
Sure
hoary salmon
how could he buy gold plated yachts without bonuses
sterile wharf
I mean absolutely yes, they did better because of it
hollow hemlock
how could he buy gold plated yachts without bonuses
TRUE
sterile wharf
but it's really hard overstate the huge success that the numerous releases they've had this last year
as well as the explosive results in their new CoD initiatives
brittle pike
how could he buy gold plated yachts without bonuses
True, the angle grinders he must go through to keep those horns flush with his greasy, slimy scalp must be pretty expensive, too
sterile wharf
in fact, most analysts declared that online entertainment trends were already declining around last August
and declared that gaming had declined back down to pre-covid levels by Nov of last year
and yet ATVI was hitting numerous all time highs throughout Dec and Jan
you can say whatever you want against the company, against Kotick, or anyone else employed there
but you sure as shit can't say they haven't been wildly successful
hoary salmon
who argued that
sterile wharf
Depending on who you ask, a lot of people might
people who still say WoW is dying (for the 15th year in a row)
hoary salmon
ok but in this specific discussion
hollow hemlock
in fact, most analysts declared that online entertainment trends were already de...
I mean
hoary salmon
why bring it up
hollow hemlock
you referenced data
hoary salmon
doesnt matter
sterile wharf
because I was making a point
hoary salmon
pointless point
hollow hemlock
Sure but it's fine for him to ask for a source no?
hollow hemlock
correct
hoary salmon
whats the point of saying that in the discussion
sterile wharf
it was simply a turn of phrase; saying "they most certainly have been successful" would have meant literally the same thing
hoary salmon
ignoring everything bad but
they make money
ok and?
maybe im missunderstanding ?
sterile wharf
You must be
the point was that whatever anyone in particular may think of Activision, Kotick, or anyone else at ATVI, the company has done extremely well, for reasons other than just "because Covid kept us indoors"
Which is ultimately the point of most business - to put out new products (or continue current product support) in order to bring in new customers, retain old customers, and increase profits
hoary salmon
im not sure how this matters to what i was saying at the start, maybe you moved on to a different topic while i was away
sterile wharf
funny how that happens, we've been in here for like 3 hours
hoary salmon
seems like a bit of mental gymnastics justifying what blizzard does because its an industry standard and other companies do it
sterile wharf
Not really
sterile wharf
Yeah basically
hollow hemlock
instead of a specific person or organisation
hoary salmon
but you arent really
sterile wharf
sure we are, I said several times that it was shitty, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter
maybe you missed that while you were away, idk
hoary salmon
sterile wharf
but you simply can't expect a company to go against the grain in such a way that would see them loose success and profitability for no good reason
yeah it would absolutely be nice if they did, but what's the incentive to, other than.. altruism?
hoary salmon
they are increasing profit to feed it all to the boss
sterile wharf
but they're not
hollow hemlock
they are increasing profit to feed it all to the boss
wrong
sterile wharf
at all
hollow hemlock
They are increasing profits to feed it to shareholders
sterile wharf
I'm sorry but that's such an ignorant take, especially after all that's been discussed here
hoary salmon
sterile wharf
That's just downright ignorant
hollow hemlock
Giving skilled CEOs stock options is an easy way to incentivise them making the company grow
hollow hemlock
Although you can argue that in some specific cases the companies long term gains can be damaged by it
But this is something the owners of the company decided
Or at least their representatives
If they're dumb they're only shooting themselves in the foot
sterile wharf
And lot of increased profits (whether the result of market success or eliminating redundancy) go back into the company, in order to increase profits further and remain competitive in an active environment
hollow hemlock
Well yeah it's dividends or reinvestment
And that's a decision that most corporations make annually
sterile wharf
successful companies don't throw away its profits in people's bank accounts
I mean yeah, people will make money off of it
hollow hemlock
I mean usually they throw away some of it
sterile wharf
they don't lay people off in order to pay a bigger bonus to their CEO - it may seem that way, but it's not the reality of the situation
hoary salmon
lmao
sterile wharf
such as in this case, where the layoffs occurred after his bonus was triggered in the first place
hollow hemlock
Sure, but it's also the reality that that money could have gone to pay the employee's salary
sterile wharf
oh absolutely
hollow hemlock
It's never going to
sterile wharf
but at the same time - why are you going to pay people to do a job you don't need?
hollow hemlock
Yep
sterile wharf
That's the real issue people have
sterile wharf
A lot of people get up in arms over downsizing, and while I sympathize that it sucks, there's usually a reason for it
Just because a company employed you once doesn't mean you have a job for life
doesn't mean you necessarily deserve one either
hollow hemlock
I think it extra sucks because unemployment in the US is a big deal
sterile wharf
These recent esports layoffs are a prime example - it isn't necessarily the fault of anyone working in that department, but esports simply haven't been profitable
hoary salmon
maybe blizzard should move all their offices to 3rd world countries to increase profits even more
sounds good to me 👍
sterile wharf
so why are you going to continue to pay people to do something that isn't making you money?
hollow hemlock
maybe blizzard should move all their offices to 3rd world countries to increase ...
I know this is a meme, but that doesn't work that way
sterile wharf
^
hoary salmon
sterile wharf
although it does raise an interesting side point
silent dove
so why dont some group do something about this. like say " people wrongly generalize bobbys bonuses with firing people because they are kinda one after the other. why dont we move these firings to some other date or the bonus to some other date " public relations just dont matter anymore? do they not give a fuck what the public believes ? im sure the general population just ties one with the other and the general consensus even though wrong becomes the answer
sterile wharf
Honestly, because people will make the association anyway
brittle pike
Because unionisation is "bad"
sterile wharf
they could have announced the layoffs 2 months from now
and people insistent on disliking ATVI would dig this back up
hoary salmon
i mean
sterile wharf
people are still referencing the 2019 layoffs
hoary salmon
apple doesnt make profit from factories in china?
chilly ibex
see, this is why it's hard to have a serious conversation on the matter, because...
Fuck man this basically ended the whole thread
Yawn
sterile wharf
That was basically the start of it, lol
chilly ibex
Yeah and everyone kept it going for no reason
silent dove
then theres the whole firing. are these just giving without warning? or they literally tell you a month in advance that the project youre working on will be ending in a month and youre gona have to most likely find another job
sterile wharf
I'm having a slow morning
hoary salmon
clothing companies having factories in vietnam and indonesia isnt profitble?
chilly ibex
It's friyay
sterile wharf
clothing companies having factories in vietnam and indonesia isnt profitble?
big difference between textiles and tech
chilly ibex
I mean you're using a computer that's probably involved in slave labor too
Your phones everything
silent dove
if we are gona go down that rabbit hole we might as well grow or own clothes and food
sterile wharf
although, strictly speaking, while it sucks that local jobs outsource to cheaper labour in other countries
it's also why shit is cheap
hoary salmon
well youve described some of the jobs at blizzard to be disposible as textile workers
sterile wharf
Free markets and global economies drive down the price of goods
chilly ibex
It's like the people wanting jobs back in america as a whole not just USA, when you give them the price tag of non china made stuff they won't buy it
sterile wharf
that's not much solace to someone who loses their job when their factory boards up and moves to indonesia
but it's a whole lot of solace to the whole lot more people who can buy clothes, food, electronics, etc for a tenth of the price because of it
But that's again just kind of the reality of the world we live in - most things don't benefit individuals, it's impossible to
decisions are made to benefit the greatest number of people
hoary salmon
ehh
sterile wharf
just sucks if you're not one of them
silent dove
we all know the injustices of the world and how the bottom line holds everything together. no point in saying shit like https://gyazo.com/f2c07ed20a102a88fa815a0bbd2eb65c
sterile wharf
I mean it is though, it does justify it
it doesn't make it right
but if there's no incentive to go against the grain, why would you?
If you try to get a job as a QA tester at blizz and demand a "fair livable wage" of let's say 45k in Irvine (which is frankly still on the low end)
they're going to say fuck no
hollow hemlock
mfw made a tongue in cheek comment at Archi and made him waste 3 hours of his time
sterile wharf
because there are THOUSANDS of people willing to do it for 25-30k
hoary salmon
i think improving the conditions of your employees so they dont have to skip meals isnt really against the grain
hollow hemlock
i think improving the conditions of your employees so they dont have to skip mea...
sounds like socialism
sterile wharf
i think improving the conditions of your employees so they dont have to skip mea...
Again, I can't comment on the unsubstantiated reportings of every random story, but I'm fairly confident in calling bullshit on that one
they easily get paid enough to afford to eat
sterile wharf
whether they necessarily manage their money well enough is another story
hoary salmon
i dont think its just one story but sure
sterile wharf
or whether they have other factors
hollow hemlock
David
chilly ibex
Maybe he wasn't hungry dude
I'm laughing too hard at this
hoary salmon
???
sterile wharf
I didn't say he was making it up, but there's simply not enough evidence to make an argument about the claim
chilly ibex
David fell victim to the lefty site known as Reddit sadge
silent dove
the world is build on the back of injustice at this point. someone has to clean the floors. someone has to pick up the trash. someone has to farm the rice and whatnot. what we can do is make the work fair and livable. we might raise our prices more but at least well have a clear consciousness. now that might be wishful thinking and beyond the range of our conversation. and it might not even happen in this generation. but how do you even flip over the layer of corpses we built upon without a full on revolutions and end up having to deal with all the maggots under em
hoary salmon
idk i guess people saying they cant eat is made up for internet points
chilly ibex
I can tell by what I read above no worries
sterile wharf
I knew a girl who worked in QA who was on her fourth round in college, had student loans up the ying yang
she got paid plenty to live, but her finances were already in fucking shambles before she got hired
hollow hemlock
I can tell by what I read above no worries
It's like doing crossfit I need to remind ppl
sterile wharf
is that the companies fault? should they pay her more in order to make up for her previous failings?
In a perfect world... maybe
but they're not going to
brittle pike
It was pretty widely reported, not sure I'd call it unsubstantiated, https://time.com/5875371/blizzard-wage-disaparities/ there's bloomberg articles, etc
chilly ibex
It's like doing crossfit I need to remind ppl
HAHAHAHAHA
brittle pike
There was the other link I gave earlier, too
hollow hemlock
It was pretty widely reported, not sure I'd call it unsubstantiated, https://tim...
ty mr well read british man
chilly ibex
Should call yourself binforged
hoary salmon
It was pretty widely reported, not sure I'd call it unsubstantiated, https://tim...
this
sterile wharf
It was pretty widely reported, not sure I'd call it unsubstantiated, https://tim...
I didn't say the fact that they were paid a relatively low amount for a high cost of living area was false
hollow hemlock
Should call yourself binforged
I didn't choose this name Archi did
sterile wharf
I said the "paid so little they were skipping meals part" was
brittle pike
ty mr well read british man
You're welcome, Mr Nihilist Danish man
hollow hemlock
It me
chilly ibex
I said the "paid so little they were skipping meals part" was
There was also one constantly shared on reddit of some QA who went dumpster diving to eat.
Then read the same article for riot games
sterile wharf
I've read all of them
chilly ibex
Like at this point it's just a smear campaign imo
sterile wharf
I reported on most of them
brittle pike
I'm actually not a nihilist anymore
I don't really care?
chilly ibex
Well kinda
Hey man 20 years of socialism gives you a black suppository
hollow hemlock
chilly ibex
Should try it
chilly ibex
SCANDY ANDY WHAT
sterile wharf
There was also one constantly shared on reddit of some QA who went dumpster divi...
kinda goes back to my point about bias
hollow hemlock
Wat when have I argued for capitalism
sterile wharf
people believe what they want to believe
hollow hemlock
I dunno dude the riot shit is kinda yikers
chilly ibex
people believe what they want to believe
Yeah I mean not falling into personal bias is hard as f probably zen level human beings can idk
sterile wharf
I'm sure someone did skip meals, I don't believe it's because they were paid to little to live
They may have been paid too little to live in whatever financial circumstance they were in, but that's not the companies fault, and nobody forced them to take that job in that high expense area either
hollow hemlock
It's literally impossible to avoid bias, you just need to be aware you have it
hoary salmon
yeah they should just move lol
chilly ibex
yeah they should just move lol
5head
hoary salmon
if theyre hungry why dont they just eat
sterile wharf
I knew plenty of people from bumfuck Alabama where the cost of living is zilch who moved to Irvine to work for Blizz and suddenly realized they couldn't afford to waste as much money as they did before
because their rent was so much higher
brittle pike
Libertarianism at its finest
chilly ibex
Me after moving away from the city
sterile wharf
or, like that person I mentioned earlier, people repaying 3 rounds of student loans all at the same time
brittle pike
I mean, why don't they just try harder at life?
hollow hemlock
You think people aren't just going to sell their homes and move?
- Benjamino Shabingo 2019
chilly ibex
Crazy how irl works
silent dove
You think people aren't just going to sell their homes and move?
- Benjamino Sha...
the fucking merman will buy the houses anyways
sterile wharf
There used to be a belief in many countries that people should be paid more based on the number of kids they have
since they have more mouths to feed and support
chilly ibex
(still exists)
sterile wharf
well, yeah the belief does, but it's not really practiced anymore
hollow hemlock
Pretty sure most EU countries have government support for people with kids
chilly ibex
Aaaa right right
hoary salmon
Crazy how irl works
im going to live in a cabin in the forest growing my own food and livestock and generate electricity by bike peddaling bye
chilly ibex
In Norway you stop getting it after the 2nd or 3rd
sterile wharf
Pretty sure most EU countries have government support for people with kids
Well so does the US actually, which I was getting to
hollow hemlock
And actually in Germany a company is supposed to prioritise parents with children for holidays
hollow hemlock
Yes
silent dove
im going to live in a cabin in the forest growing my own food and livestock and ...
power the pc while pedaling and playing wow at the same time
sterile wharf
The private sector used to pay people more based on the number of kids an employee had
chilly ibex
im going to live in a cabin in the forest growing my own food and livestock and ...
Gonna be fit as fuck now
hollow hemlock
But then they realised that's less 
so they didn't
hoary salmon
yeah so if i want food ill just get it lol
sterile wharf
well it's that, but it's also unfair compensation
hollow hemlock
Unfair in what way?
sterile wharf
if you work harder than me, but you're single
and I do the bare minimum but have 3 kids
Should the company pay me more for less work?
hollow hemlock
Like there's absolutely no fucking way you think companies are actually directly compensating people for the value they generate for the company right?
brittle pike
Precisely
chilly ibex
I do
sterile wharf
I mean perfect world that's what they're designed to
chilly ibex
Find a better company 5Head
hollow hemlock
It's an estimate at best
sterile wharf
Depends on the company tbh
hollow hemlock
or the sector, sure
sterile wharf
but yes, still doesn't change the hypothetical
all else being equal, and with demonstrable differences in performance, why should a company pay me more for less work because I have kids?
Now, government welfare programs, that's another story entirely; I'm speaking purely from the private perspective
hoary salmon
cant afford to live? just dont
hollow hemlock
I dunno, maybe they think people with children are less likely to swap jobs
or something
hoary salmon
youre not legally obligated to be a live
hollow hemlock
TRUE
sterile wharf
cant afford to live? just dont
I think the better point is that you should live within your means
and an alarming amount of people don't (by choice, not circumstance)
hollow hemlock
I think the better point is that you should live within your means
What do you think is a good regulator of a person's "means"?
chilly ibex
Are constantly crying about being broke
hollow hemlock
just MOVE 
sterile wharf
I mean cali is an expensive place to live
chilly ibex
But I see their stories every day drinking expensive starbucks
hoary salmon
ok so how does a random boy born in a 3rd world country just move and improve his life and get a job
sterile wharf
not only is the cost of living high, but so is the lifestyle
and those do factor in
hoary salmon
omega
chilly ibex
Like that's certainly not helping lmao
hoary salmon
lul
silent dove
like the people in manhattan crying because they dont have their jobs cuz of covid and cant pay their 10k a month appartment and im like ... " oh no poor you better move to bronx then "
chilly ibex
ok so how does a random boy born in a 3rd world country just move and improve hi...
You just do it :l
Sauce: I did it
brittle pike
There's a difference in saying you're broke and actively skipping meals to save money
sterile wharf
it goes back to the military example I made earlier - most people in the military have virtually all their expenses paid for - housing, clothing, food, health, dental, etc
and yet an alarming number of them are completely broke
hollow hemlock
There's a difference in saying you're broke and actively skipping meals to save ...
I'm not broke but I skip meals to save money anyway AMA
sterile wharf
and it isn't because they don't get paid enough, it's because they tend to be young and don't know how to manage their finances
brittle pike
I'm not broke but I skip meals to save money anyway AMA
Yeah well you have a chemical inbalance so
chilly ibex
OOF
hollow hemlock
Yeah well you have a chemical inbalance so
yeah I'm lacking nutrients because I didn't eat
sterile wharf
also a lot of predatory business, like car dealerships with insane markups, preying on the ingorant
brittle pike
no offenszx
hollow hemlock
That's how that works
chilly ibex
also a lot of predatory business, like car dealerships with insane markups, prey...
The loan sharks here in south america oh boy
hoary salmon
yeah I'm lacking nutrients because I didn't eat
why dont you just eat lol
hollow hemlock
it goes back to the military example I made earlier - most people in the militar...
Don't you have rly terrible veteran benefits in USA?
chilly ibex
They live and breathe poverty stricken areas
hollow hemlock
why dont you just eat lol
It was a joke
sterile wharf
Don't you have rly terrible veteran benefits in USA?
Not sure what you mean, but not in the military no - virtually everything is paid for
hollow hemlock
oh neat
sterile wharf
though just because it's paid for
brittle pike
It was a joke
Eat your words, you disgusting pasty boy
sterile wharf
doesn't mean people take advantage of it
brittle pike
Eat them
silent dove
And you know what most people buy with that loaned money? An expensive car
i know people that literally were unable to pay rent last month and they got their stim check last week > posting pictures of new car. im like ....bitch save that for rent or food
hollow hemlock
Eat your words, you disgusting pasty boy
Why are you so angry
sterile wharf
e.g. they can go to the chow hall and eat for free, but they'd rather go out and pay out of pocket
silent dove
so fucking dumb..
chilly ibex
i know people that literally were unable to pay rent last month and they got the...
Ikr fucking hell it happens EVERYWHERE
sterile wharf
they can walk to work, but they have money now, so they go buy an expensive car first thing
chilly ibex
Then the same dude probably goes to reddit someday and will shill for socialism
sterile wharf
they don't have bills to pay, so they frivolously spend their money instead of saving
chilly ibex
Probably a strawman again but this is why I don't argue ever lmao
brittle pike
Shilling for socialism
sterile wharf
it's extremely common, again mostly because they tend to be young and kind of ignorant - a lot of them it's their first "real" job, first time they've really had money
silent dove
whatever money i got in my bank is literally " im 5-10 months ahead of rent " lol
hollow hemlock
Ok but why do you think these people suck at finances?
silent dove
not " oh look at all the wow tokens i can get "
chilly ibex
Me
chilly ibex
Ok but why do you think these people suck at finances?
Shit education system imo
sterile wharf
I'm not sure veracity, but I heard once that if you have a thousand dollars in the bank, you're richer than 90% the rest of America, because so many people are so far in debt
brittle pike
Shit education? Just move schools, bro
silent dove
Shit education system imo
student credit cards
sterile wharf
and sometimes that debt is through not fault of their own (school, etc)
hollow hemlock
Instead of saying "just get better at finances 4head"
sterile wharf
that's not always the case though
hoary salmon
Shit education? Just move schools, bro
just
chilly ibex
Pretty sure everyone here agrees to an extent we wasted some varying amount of time at school or college even
sterile wharf
the amount of people in college who don't take advantage of grants and programs available to virtually everyone would astound you
chilly ibex
That I will go full activist for
hoary salmon
yung bin
silent dove
how to be good at finances step one : dont get a credit card. and if you do opt for like the 250$ max credit
hollow hemlock
Literally every person's actions are influenced by their socioeconomic status
hollow hemlock
Yes
chilly ibex
Wish it was
hollow hemlock
Give me an example
sterile wharf
Influenced maybe, doesn't mean completely dictated though
chilly ibex
Oh right right
brittle pike
Except do get a credit card in order to increase your credit rating to be able to afford more credit so you can buy more stuff
hollow hemlock
Influenced maybe, doesn't mean completely dictated though
I worded it the way I worded it for a reason
hollow hemlock
nw
sterile wharf
I worded it the way I worded it for a reason
I know, which is why I was clarifying for those who didn't understand
hollow hemlock
Thank you
d
chilly ibex
Tfw no nitro
chilly ibex
I like some services are now adjusting cost depending on where you live
Makes my life easier for such things
sterile wharf
like my dad grew up poor as shit, and although my family was fairly middle class (certainly not rich, but not dirt poor either), he still maintains those same tendencies