arms

[topaz python]

dont see any arms in top 100 clears of any nerubar palace boss

[sharp wyvern]

my bad

[minor gust]

Ah yes so because it's not the best it's shit got it

[topaz python]

i mean

if best spec is doing 50% more damage

that means your spec is shit

[minor gust]

Whatever you say man

[topaz python]

we are in the similar situation right now you know

80k compared to 120k

is 50% difference

[sharp wyvern]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/46/?metric=bossdps&dataset=90&boss=3177
ST fight doesnt look to bad

[slow saddle]

Add pas

Pad*

[sharp wyvern]

its boss dmg

with pad it actually drops below other specs

[minor gust]

First week logs doing their thing

[slow saddle]

Fuck

But y

[sharp wyvern]

this is before tierset

[minor gust]

Misleading the players and the devs

[sharp wyvern]

thats why

[slow saddle]

Try harders playing arms

[sharp wyvern]

its always like this
without tier set warrior looks fine then everyone gets their tier and we drop to the bottom

[topaz python]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/49vaCKYRyZWbPNDd?fight=18&type=damage-done&target=83
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/arPhMvJpgNfzYmHZ?fight=40&type=damage-done&target=143

compare those two

top 1 warlock and top 1 arms currently

damage done to a boss

[sharp wyvern]

he played collosus on the first boss

its his own faul t

[topaz python]

okay, sure, check this up

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8dBA6zhy1427p3FG?fight=19&type=damage-done&target=263

[slow saddle]

Just me on my randomly shitty dk

[topaz python]

35k slayer st damage to a boss

[slow saddle]

68k

[sharp wyvern]

he took cleave bruh

what are you doing

[topaz python]

bro

[wind hatch]

this is an ad fight, people will save cds for ads

[sharp wyvern]

blizz only tunes for pure ST we´ve known this

[wind hatch]

looking exclusively at boss dmg is ignoring the full picture

[topaz python]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bTWLXFp7ZA8RPm6f?fight=83&type=damage-done&target=444
this one is without cleave

34k

[topaz python]

true, but i've reffered to this link

this is not true

no one is doing 60k st dps on this boss

[wind hatch]

because

they are sending cds on ads

[topaz python]

yes, that's why i'm saying this is invalid data

adds may be considered a boss dunno

60k is too much

[sharp wyvern]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/46?boss=3177&class=Warrior&spec=Arms&metric=bossdps

how did they do this then

top guy got 3 PIs but the others are above 50k boss dps

[topaz python]

i didnt say it's unreal average
i said that is data is invalid on averzian

65k st is average

even below

[sharp wyvern]

no shit cause it has pad
that wasnt my point

blizz only cares /tunes for ST
its always been like this look at all previous ST bosses and those are the most balanced

[topaz python]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/46/?metric=bossdps&boss=3177
damage to a boss on vorasius
15-20k less damage

[topaz python]

that is true and that is why i'm mad at those tuning numbers

[sharp wyvern]

i remember in TWW you went arms for boss dmg
now thats unacceptable

i kinda liked being the ST spec when you have 5 specs in your raid blowing up adds

[nova marsh]

Yeah same

I kinda hate pad

[uncut yacht]

Rasha'nan was cathartic

[sharp wyvern]

was miserable if you played fury and tried to get some dmg in on those

[uncut yacht]

idc about fury inflating numbers by stealing the mobs, arms on Rasha'nan was therapy for me

[sharp wyvern]

you use BS when adds spawn and if it hits some of them great if not you can still do well

[nova marsh]

ya know it's funny

[sharp wyvern]

i just imagine someone going collosus on the dragons to try to hit their demolish on those adds

[nova marsh]

I hate pad....So I went frost

[sharp wyvern]

why would you want to do that

[nova marsh]

because PAD

Gotta pad to make my ego feel better

[sharp wyvern]

griefing is what i call it

[nova marsh]

-I do agree people care too much about pad

[sharp wyvern]

there are actually people going collosus on that boss

[nova marsh]

The fact that arms lost it's ST idenity is

depressing

[sharp wyvern]

its mostly cause blizz puts a million adds on bosses

[umbral badger]

was still inferior to fury most of the expansion though, was only select bosses were arms slayer was superior imo

[sharp wyvern]

but at least you went arms and did decent boss dmg now you only go arms if you want to pad

[minor gust]

Arms and fury were tuned pretty much equal for the first two raids

All it came down to was fight design

[umbral badger]

i mean it depends , they were close on boss damage but overall "yes, pad in part" it was fury. and while pad is not very important if it comes for free it is good.

[sharp wyvern]

i just hope the 3rd raid wont have bosses that spawn 10 adds every 30s

[minor gust]

We took it for granted when S3 came out and arms was tuned poorly

[umbral badger]

what i mean is on average arms was one of hte worst classes overall in TWW

while fury was above average overall

it just shows that blizzard did not exactly "pay enough attention to arms" and suddenly stopped , they just never did actually give it any prio.

[sharp wyvern]

appearently the last raid means the whole expac

[umbral badger]

instead of "apparently" you could literally look eh data

[sharp wyvern]

i did

[umbral badger]

arms overall is in the bottom

it's literally in teh data lol

[sharp wyvern]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/38

[umbral badger]

also a raid is 1/3 of the expansion

[sharp wyvern]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/42

2/3

[sudden topaz]

where buff, how not

[nova marsh]

No buff cuz vanguard

[minor gust]

Lots of bitching today in the arms channel

[sharp wyvern]

maybe you can show me data where arms is in the bottom in the first 2 raids ?

[minor gust]

Need more bitching in the forums

[umbral badger]

again , you show 2 statsicis where arms is roughly average, then if we look at the last one where arms is dead bottom it does not "average out to good"

an entire raid is 1/3 of a raid

of an expansion

[sharp wyvern]

[minor gust]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-impossible-out-of-hand-gif-16945967

[sharp wyvern]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/148898695696482305/1481791866067226806/WWgoesbrr.gif

[minor gust]

Now we got two people saying only thing that matters is being the best

[sharp wyvern]

lets go abck to gif spam

[obsidian otter]

people need it to sim the best so it can make up for that lack there of 🙁

[sharp wyvern]

it was more peaceful back then

[umbral badger]

all i know is that we had 1 week of being S tier in previous expansion and we got instant nerf 😄

[sharp wyvern]

cool

https://i.imgflip.com/a389n4.gif

this is not true anymore

[minor gust]

Still could be what was rets total gain from their buffs

👀

[sharp wyvern]

all their major abilities got buffed by 20% so i doubt that

[umbral badger]

last i checked rets were doing really good boss damage at least

not sure now

[torpid wave]

dont forget they have 3 immunity abilities and they are fully ranged while wearing plate armor and all their damage is holy so it ignores armor

balanced spec, trust me!

[minor gust]

Yeah but thats not an aura buff. It all adds up to something.

[umbral badger]

also i see some UH dks on top of some fights

now

[sharp wyvern]

what else is new

[umbral badger]

i mean didn't they cry they are the "worst spec now" and blizzard said they will revert some of the nerf ?

lol

[lone yarrow]

https://tenor.com/view/kratos-god-of-war-1-area-god-of-war-and-my-life-is-yours-my-life-is-yours-destroy-my-enemies-gif-16755581796643335609

[minor gust]

https://i.imgflip.com/amgm6l.gif

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1314374602285125712/1380938748677722223/WhyTheFuckHaveYouBeenDrinkingSoMuchMilkIfYouKnewYouWereLactoseIntolerantJesusChristDude.gif

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/148898720803586048/1481991857369255996/GIF_20260313_122512_444.gif

[mortal rivet]

https://tenor.com/view/prempdr-fc-mobile-fifa-gif-16778760554072111618

[wind hatch]

https://i.imgflip.com/amgm6l.gif

[sharp wyvern]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/148898720803586048/1402024314978439373/Doom_Gif_2.0.gif

[rose ibex]

Ummm what talents you think are best for each boss fight in raid?

I need to prepare for sunday

[umbral badger]

as arms ?

[rose ibex]

But have never done any of these fights

Other than lfr

Yeah

[junior marsh]

Playing Arms warrior is like being last in the human centipede line… just eating everyone else’s shit all day

[olive nest]

[minor gust]

Ima be real mate I aint typing all that but feel free to just take a look at logs and just copy whoevers ontop
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/46?class=Warrior&spec=Arms

[umbral badger]

@rose ibex as arms it is very different based on boss, also most of the arms that are doing well are just padding with the exception of lightbinded vanguard.

[rose ibex]

Nice that helps a lot

[umbral badger]

if you want an easy way to do it you go to warcraftl ogs and copy top player build per fight

they do have some mistakes on some fights but nothing major so it's safe to straight up copy paste

[rose ibex]

I just hope its not crazy with the changes between talent setups too much

[minor gust]

no at most your gonna swap around is dropping BB for cleave and or collat

[umbral badger]

yea there isn't much

[rose ibex]

If you are stuck in a wheel chair you need big arms to go fast is all im saying

[minor gust]

if you got people steaing your pad you can just ignore collat

and only take cleave

[umbral badger]

@rose ibex some fights padding is dead in 2 seconds, those fights ppl are going slayer and just bladstorming the adds

but some fights are strictly colossus

primarily lightbinded vanguard

[rose ibex]

Hold bladestorm for adds or full send?

[umbral badger]

depends on if you wanna have fun or just kill bosses i guess xd

[rose ibex]

In lfr I felt like bs wasnt ready for adds in first boss. Maybe I need more haste

[boreal remnant]

On which boss

[umbral badger]

but generally like a boss fight like crown of the cosmos you are always hitting something with bladestorm anyway i assume

[rose ibex]

I see dps as a personal thing. Just trying to milk as much value of the spec as possible without swapping

Swapping to fury or different class or whatever

No loyalty to colossus or slayer

[umbral badger]

sadly, loyality is dead when your spec is hard cucked by blizzard

[rose ibex]

Pad is for fun. Most important thing is we beat the boss and we get the loot

[minor gust]

I see you

[umbral badger]

i held loyality in TWW and was able to pull it off but now it's not possible xd

[vapid spire]

The overall balancing is dogshit

[rose ibex]

Its like not even week 2 of tuning dude. Stuff is gonna change more

[umbral badger]

the point is, you don't wanna drag your grp down hard if your grp is planning to push mythic

[rose ibex]

And if no changes for us, other classes will definitely get nerfed and buffed

Oh no we are heroic raiders at best

[umbral badger]

so you can't hold loyality if the class is broken in a bad way

[rose ibex]

We're all old dad gamers

[umbral badger]

then you just play what you want and smash 😄

[rose ibex]

We pug half the raid and focus mainly on m+ and pvp

[umbral badger]

chimaerus might be giga fun if you enjoy colossus wit hit

[rose ibex]

Im just being a little sweaty because I know arms is kinda rough in raid

[umbral badger]

just a few things to remember and you will have fun, like don't forget your wrecking throw on absorb shields

[rose ibex]

Colossus makes the monkey in my brain happy when I see big numbers on meters and big crits

Slayer makes the monkey happy when I spin to win and see tons of procs

Tbh I love both specs

[umbral badger]

don't forget to sweeping as slayer before bladestorm probably for unhinged proc s

and so on

[rose ibex]

But I usually play colossus so I have a chance if beating my friends in dungeon haha

[umbral badger]

like i am a noob fury was my first time ever yesterday and i realized i was missing a lot of dps by missing on small steps

[rose ibex]

Does that actually work? I noticed that sweeping strike charges werent going down when I was spinning

[umbral badger]

i mean i honestly did not touch slayer arms so i am just going iwth the assumption it does

[wind hatch]

5 PI strat too op

[umbral badger]

someone who plays slayer will know more

[obsidian otter]

they hot fixed that while ago sweeping does not make Your unhenged MS hit multiple targets

[minor gust]

[rose ibex]

I feel like it shoooould.... I want it to haha

[minor gust]

My priests only give me PI to invalidate my logs

[umbral badger]

there you go @rose ibex sadge for you

[rose ibex]

Oh wells

[obsidian otter]

was changed in like 2024 lol

[umbral badger]

i did not touch slayer arms cuz i can't be bothered dragging the guild down when i can just fury

like even my first time fury i am doing more than top arms warriors

and i am shit as fury

literally

[rose ibex]

Fury feels very easy to pick up

Small amount of buttons and nuance but super fast paced

[umbral badger]

yea i realized near the end that i just need to do more bloodthirsts than i was doing

and then my performance improved

[rose ibex]

Theres a part of me that really likes it, but my hipster brain rejects it

I might give it a shot for fun but arms will always be where the heart lies

Arms is more chill with more buttons and I like buttons

[umbral badger]

well, i am just hoping balance will fix issues, can't have vet arm players doing less than noob fury ones xd

[rose ibex]

More fun cooldowns too

[sharp wyvern]

fury has a lot of depth to it you need to pre use your aoe CDs to get some hits on the adds

[rose ibex]

Also mountain thane is booooring

[umbral badger]

@obsidian otter does fury improved WW also have no effect on fury's unhinged ?

[obsidian otter]

nope

[rose ibex]

Slayer is so much more visually fun

[obsidian otter]

they fixed them both to not cleave during unhenged

[rose ibex]

Super lame

But oh well

[sharp wyvern]

thane might have the best execute dmg of any warrior spec rn

[last saddle]

solo shuffle queue taking forever im never getting 1600 man

[umbral badger]

i don't even know anything about mountain thane, although i am trying to help by the swap i am not enjoying this shit at all so i am just hoping i can go back to arms soon

[obsidian otter]

Bloodbath already hitting for 90k imagine if it cleaved lol

during unhenged

[rose ibex]

As far as I know its just thunder clap big and passive damage

[umbral badger]

yea that's why i asked

cuz i never took it into account on my first ride as fury and then when i realized fury had unhinged "literaly after the raid" i was like "oh shit does this imply anything"

either way this is good

would be giga broken

hoping i won't need to fury again next week so lets see what blizzard is gonna do 😄

[rose ibex]

Patch notes tonight right?

Kinda excited to see what they are cooking even if there's no warrior stuff

[umbral badger]

are they ?

[obsidian otter]

whats crazy is unhenged for fury plus enraged regeneration is litterly a 100% heal even at lowest health possible compared to arms getting no heal from it at all

[umbral badger]

i mean some ppl told me there is gonna be a "15% rend buff'

which is literally nothing

[rose ibex]

Usually hotfix notes for tuesday come out Friday

I think..

[olive nest]

Think they dropped right around this time last week but idr exactly

[umbral badger]

tell me about it, i was doing the delve ?? yesterday and colossus / fury were able to do it easily compared to slayer arms

[rose ibex]

If they just give our pure single target buttons a little more oomph ill be really happy. Doesnt need to be crazy

I just wanna bladestooooooorm

[umbral badger]

also is the ?? delve boss giving us the 30 mythic crests as a one time thing btw ?

or do i have to do this shit every week

[smoky kayak]

you get 35; 30 are a one-time deal and don't count against the crest cap, 5 are weekly

[umbral badger]

i always find it funny how most warriors love bladestorm and i've always considered it the most boring skill ever xd

[lone yarrow]

better than ravager at least

[umbral badger]

naah i prefer ravager cuz i can actually do other stuff during it

ravager it self is boring, but does not prevent me from playing

although ravager is now both boring nad useless on ST so there is that xd

[smoky kayak]

Ravager does nothing on its own, its sole value is increasing the (already high) damage of Cleave

[umbral badger]

yup, removing unhinged from ravager rendered it useless for ST

[smoky kayak]

except for casting cleave

Ravager is strong enough that Cleave enters the ST rotation

[umbral badger]

which completely shocked me , you'd think unhinged is a colossus skill since colossus is more mortalstrike-based than slayer

they gave colossus the "10% haste" and slayer the "mortal strikes spam"

[smoky kayak]

though it doesn't even do any appreciable damage in AoE either, its all about Cleave damage

[rose ibex]

It gives my brain a break basically. I get to look around and re-assess what's going on. Its a very casual friendly skill and its also just fun running people over with it in pvp

[smoky kayak]

Slayer also uses MS, but it's more to the fact of Unhinged ensuring Bladestorm retains single target value

Ravager does not need to be used by Colossus
Bladestorm does need to be used by Slayer

[rose ibex]

Just like "hahaha! You cannot cc me! I spin zug zug!"

[smoky kayak]

Ravager should have just been removed, its a completely superfluous ability

[umbral badger]

while i do get that, but since colossus is more MS orriented and needs MS for more things than slayer such as demo resets. as well as allows ravager to be usable on ST, you'd have thought it is a colossus skill more.

but

but at this point id o prefer to lose ravager and bladestorm as colossus

take them both off my life

[rose ibex]

Ravager is very boring and it clutters the screen

The only joy I have with it is the cleave combo

Ive always disliked it

Also what? Magic weapon spinning around? Thats not very warriory

[umbral badger]

if anything removing ravager might balance cleave damage enough to justify a huge mortal/slam/execute buffs

and the lost aoe can be then compensated from sweeping the stronger mortals

[rose ibex]

Hmm.. for slayer dungeon build, is it better to cleave combo before or after bladestorm?

[lone yarrow]

warriors in wow are already halfway into being a weird order/titan-battlemage

with avatar ravager champion's spear and so on

[nova marsh]

I mean wow is a high fantasy setting

[bronze gale]

I give it a pass because iirc it originates from that awesome Garrosh boss fight

[nova marsh]

evrey class uses magic

Is cloak of shadows not roguey cuz it's magic?

[sharp wyvern]

i think lore wise warriors use some kind of ligt iirc

[nova marsh]

Techincally no

because not all races can use the light

[rose ibex]

I just want to be big ultra strong dude

[nova marsh]

Lore wise, avatar is a dwarf specfic ability

[lone yarrow]

I mean yeah I'ts not really an issue just saying there's magic magic like flinging fireballs and arcane missiles around and lowkey magic like slurping titanic energies from the air or shit idk

[nova marsh]

yeah but like

[proud heath]

Is there an addon that puts a warning on my screen when im in Dstance? If any of you have one do you mind sharing it please?

[nova marsh]

The titan stuff isn't even really confirmed

[lone yarrow]

also blademaster in wc3, mirror image anyone

[nova marsh]

besides odyn's fury

[sharp wyvern]

and odyns fury only came through the legendary weapons originally

[rose ibex]

Im surprised colossus doesn't turn Shockwave into a dps ability like it is in wc3

[sharp wyvern]

however tunder clap is nature

[umbral badger]

mirror image is more attributed to ninja stuff in most fantasy games though :p

[sharp wyvern]

they tried

[lone yarrow]

it is but in wow it's purely an arcane spell from the existing entries

[umbral badger]

yea but i don't think Warcraft had such a solid design

[bronze gale]

Everyone would probably hate this, but it'd be cool if Arms was an Augmentation style spec themed like Battle Master from DnD

[umbral badger]

back then ppl were just designing shit out of pure passion rather than money like now

[bronze gale]

Go all Ya Boi Kongming and make the party or raid stronger with your superior battle knowledge

[nova marsh]

Yeah then we just make arms into a support spec and scrap ereything

[lone yarrow]

it doesn't but you can still base stuff around it unless stated otherwise like always so whatever

always been the rule of cool first other shit second with warcraft

and that's fine

[lone yarrow]

now fuck that give us a blademaster instead or at least support gladiator as a baseline

[sharp wyvern]

we called it a rework when they moved shockwave up on the tree and you expect them to redesign the spec

[umbral badger]

why is my youtube spamming me with pilav stuff, my friends come here and watch pilav videos and then my youtube get spammed with him xd

[lone yarrow]

shit so I'm not alone randomly getting pilav

pilav doing the piratesoftware

in a year it turns out pilav also worked at blizzard for 7 years and he is the dev who fucked arms dev's wife

[sharp wyvern]

he applied to my guild a few weeks ago but we didnt need a warrior

[smoky kayak]

again though, Slayer also uses MS, and Colossus doesn't need Unhinged to validate Ravager - Ravager should just be removed entirely

[umbral badger]

my friends need to talk to you

[sharp wyvern]

im not in charge of who gets invited ok

[umbral badger]

i am fine with the removal of ravager more than it staying, but if it is staying it needs to be justified somehow.

[smoky kayak]

its justified in buffing the shit out of Cleave

nobody can argue it isn't a very powerful ability

it's just a stupid one that creates bad gameplay

[umbral badger]

i mean i don't evne think it is justified even in that sense, we already have avatar to buff cleave :p

[smoky kayak]

you have literally 17 talents buffing Cleave

[umbral badger]

it's like "you guys get one avatar for everything, and one extra avatar for cleave"

[shy oyster]

👀 is the long awaited adjustment notes out yet 👀

[smoky kayak]

but again, the button is justified

[sharp wyvern]

thats my opinion with rend

[smoky kayak]

whether or not it's a good design is an entirely different conversation

[lone yarrow]

fuck rend though all my homies hate rend

wasn't fun in 2004 isn't fun now

[smoky kayak]

Rend would be fine if it just did something

[sharp wyvern]

now its kinda worse cause they cant make it powerfull cause its uncapped aoe

[rose ibex]

It just comes across as lazy half assed design

[umbral badger]

the way i see it , for ravager to be justified in anyway as a replacement for slayer's bladestorm gameplay, it needs to have something unique to it. using cleave would happen with or without ravager so it is not unique in that sense

[smoky kayak]

every button should contribute to the rotation somehow, just dealing damage with no effects is bloat

[sharp wyvern]

sounds like we have some buttons that need pruning

[umbral badger]

ravager was unique beofre because it was an easy way to "reset" demolish

[sharp wyvern]

[umbral badger]

now that ravager does not even reset demolish, throw it in trash fk it.

[sharp wyvern]

if only they had a chance to prune buttons on an expansion launch or smth

maybe next expac

[rose ibex]

Im not gonna stop using it. 50% increased cleave damage is impossible to not use

[umbral badger]

like OF EVERYTHING that changed, the one thing that i hated the most is just how demolish feels like on 9 years CD now

lol

[smoky kayak]

you're kind of overstating it

[umbral badger]

nah

[rose ibex]

Before it felt like I could just focus my brain on getting as many demolishes out as possible and that was the objective

[lone yarrow]

I feel like cd of demolish is fine especially in an aoe situation

[rose ibex]

Now its just cleave baby cleave

[umbral badger]

remember, we had recklesseness baked into avatar, and then we had bunc hof mortal strike with that huge crit chance from ravagaer, and then we had 20% of mortal strike reseting it self

[sharp wyvern]

the opener just feels worse without unhinged

[umbral badger]

so while demolish on AOE is still fine

on ST is not

[sharp wyvern]

but its not a ST spec

[smoky kayak]

I do, but I also remember that we didn't have Demolish

[rose ibex]

Maybe there needs to be a choice talent for demolish ST

[umbral badger]

i am fine if it's not a ST spec, just not tank level dps 😄

[rose ibex]

Tbh I wish colossus was just a bunch of choice talents that altered demolish in various ways

And provided ways to reduce the cd

[lone yarrow]

that's cool but it will obliterate a resemblance of balance for duo bossfights

[umbral badger]

like do you guys think colossus would be "good" in very higih level keys if your group can't kill bosses cuz of your dps ?

that's the issue

[sharp wyvern]

we are talking about good designed hero talents here instead of just a bunch of passives baked into a class thats madness

[rose ibex]

Maybe

Im no game designer

That shit is hard man

[sharp wyvern]

the last titan is gonna add even more to the tree cause there is still space below the hero talent part

[rose ibex]

Part programming part psychology

[umbral badger]

i also don't see how can arms ST be fixed now that arms needs 90000 talents in aoe stuff ot m+

[sharp wyvern]

i want mop talent trees back

i dont like the illusion of choice

[lone yarrow]

mop talents eek I like my trees

[sharp wyvern]

but they work the same

[rose ibex]

I wish demolish was one big slam. Maybe a charge up slam (probably my 6th or 7th time saying that this week)

[sharp wyvern]

you only ever change 5 things everything else pretty much stays

[umbral badger]

actually we have about 7-8 things to change between our ST spec and AOE spec

[lone yarrow]

at least there's a slight chance this feature may produce multiple viable build scenarios and neat interactions like fervor of battle + collateral damage

[umbral badger]

as colossus that is

[sharp wyvern]

if every tree was like shamans where we actually had 2 completly different sides /builds it would be different

[lone yarrow]

like actually fob + collateral is a great example of how the tree should interact with itself

also heroic strike on top of this

and it starts to sound pretty neat

[umbral badger]

which is the only thing that the left us , thanks god xd

[smoky kayak]

there are a lot of good interactions sprinkled around

the biggest issue with the arms talent tree is that it's simply oversaturated with multitarget talents

[umbral badger]

but agian, we have 3 passives under colossus smash that are only useful for aoe currently. and 5 passives that are cleave related

that's way too many points

it is what's killing Colossus ST imo

[smoky kayak]

colossus ST is killed regardless

but it does hurt it even more

[umbral badger]

for m+ it was fine before

now it does not exist

[smoky kayak]

before is irrelevant, Midnight is an entirely new tuning paradigm

[umbral badger]

sure

[smoky kayak]

and even in a full ST build, Arms' ST is still in the gutter

so it's very much not fine

[umbral badger]

and now we have this problem which i am not sure if it can be fixed

slayer at least is getitng both ST and aoe from bladestorm

[smoky kayak]

any problem can be fixed with sufficient time and effort

[umbral badger]

so slayer has less passives to move around than colossus

which helps

[lone yarrow]

slayer has a very neat node that adds more damage to bladestorm but that damage is split across all targets affected that could potentially save unsaveable ST situations also keeping cleave/aoe on point

[umbral badger]

it all goes back to how ravager currently needs to be gutted @smoky kayak 🤣

[umbral badger]

it's uhinged making bladestorm good for ST not that one

but that one also adds up

[sharp wyvern]

so out entire ST should be reliable on this one talent ?

[lone yarrow]

I know, this node is not often taken but I was referencing a general design precedent

that stuff like this (baked into existing abilities) may help keep damage afloat in multiple types of encounters

[sharp wyvern]

it is taken currently

[smoky kayak]

I mean that's a big part of it

[lone yarrow]

point stands

[sharp wyvern]

i think we need more mortall strike multipliers

[lone yarrow]

we just lost one

[sharp wyvern]

then give it back

[smoky kayak]

• Ravager needs to go
• Crushing Combo needs to go
• Mass Execution probably needs to go
• Even Collateral is pretty redundant at this point

FoB, Cleave, Imp SS/Powerful Momentum, and Broad Strokes can stay (though Broad should just replace Sweeping Strike's manual activation outright)

[lone yarrow]

it's still in just 5%

[umbral badger]

@smoky kayak bloodborne i would say is something that is just creating an illusion of choice in @sharp wyvern words

[smoky kayak]

na bloodborne is fine

[umbral badger]

it's just a talent that no one will ever avoid

[smoky kayak]

most builds don't care about bloodborne at all, just depends on how important Battlelord is

[sharp wyvern]

i think the only itme you avoid it is if mortal wounds are bad

[umbral badger]

i hate talents at the bottom of the tree where you have no choice but to take it

[smoky kayak]

but the T3 needs gates, and Bloodborne is a fine one - certainly less problematic than Critical Thinking

[jolly lintel]

Oh man, the more I pug arms, the more I feel terrible lol. Pugging through normal, adds get deleted. Try full ST, battling tank damage

[smoky kayak]

I mean bloodborne definitely isn't one of them - it's just very synergistic for Colossus because Colossus has bleed amps and it leads to Battlelord

[sharp wyvern]

rage gen on a gate talent is very interesting indeed

[umbral badger]

i dunno i feel like it needs to be comparable to critical thinking in a way where it is much more of a colossus thing than an overall thing

[smoky kayak]

it's not really

[umbral badger]

as of now, it is a must take.

on both specs

[smoky kayak]

no it's not

[umbral badger]

and all situations

it literally is :p

it's on every build right now

[smoky kayak]

no, it's really not

[umbral badger]

i mean you can literally look at every talent build of every player and every "wowhead" and every top dps warrior

it is there

at all times

[smoky kayak]

buddy I wrote the fucking builds

[fresh spire]

[soft relic]

got em

[smoky kayak]

but there's a profound difference between "needs to be taken" and "is taken anyway"

[umbral badger]

i am not saying you "dont' know" i am saying i don't like it is in every build

[fresh spire]

the talents shouldn't exist for the reasons they do.

[smoky kayak]

every build takes Mortal Wounds, which is not the same thing as saying every build needs to take Mortal Wounds

• mortal wounds doesn't actually do anything important, it just happens to be a strong and easily accessible talent

[umbral badger]

look, are you gonna sit here and tell me critical thinking and bloodborne have a simlar but opposing identity in anyway ?

like do you have an argumetn of why one is more generic and one is more specific ?

[smoky kayak]

Well first of all, I didn't say those words

[umbral badger]

yes, but that's the argument i made from the get go, it does not fit.

[smoky kayak]

however, since you brought it up, yes - Critical Thinking is much more specific, whereas Bloodborne is more generic

that's not really a problem though

[umbral badger]

it is in the sense that critical thinking is literally trash for colossus for example

and yet you take it for the next talent

[smoky kayak]

Critical Thinking isn't trash for Colossus, it's just a single target talent that multitarget builds can't afford to take

which goes back to the previous point that Arms simply has far too many dedicated multitarget talents

[smoky kayak]

to give fair credit, fishy was also instrumental in creating most of the arms builds 😛

[umbral badger]

yes, but agan, critical thinking feels like an inheretely very strong choice for slayer s well as bloodborne, for colossus critical thinking is hardly worth the points.

[smoky kayak]

Critical Thinking doesn't actually do anything more for Slayer than it does Colossus

Slayer doesn't really care much more about Execute than Colossus does - it cares about Sudden Death

[umbral badger]

it does because execute is a big portion of slayer dps compared to arms dps.

[smoky kayak]

Sudden Death is

[umbral badger]

colossus *

[fresh spire]

i created the curses

:2target::cleave:

[smoky kayak]

Blizzard created it, you just revealed it for all to see

[fresh spire]

and now its popping off on one boss in raid :kekw

[lone yarrow]

One is more than zero LUL

[sharp wyvern]

i´d prefer 0 cause then its more likely we get buffed

[minor gust]

[worldly rivet]

I don't want it to be as pruned as others but a spec like Survival gets to have strong AOE and ST in its new build paths. It does feel like Arms tree is becoming a relic in their new vision.

[fresh spire]

3% take it or leave it

[umbral badger]

either way, as long as execute is like 4% of colossus ST , CRITICAL thinking is shit

[sharp wyvern]

ill take it

at least we would beat brewmasters

[umbral badger]

and it is not fair it is that bad

[fresh spire]

you know in single target there is another nice talent called deep wounds right

[umbral badger]

if you followed hte entire conversation, i am saying deep wounds is too good cuz it's too good for both hero talents.

[lone yarrow]

when their procs don't alight

[umbral badger]

and yet critical thinking is primarily good ofr lsayer

which i attribute in part ot colossus weakness

[fresh spire]

it gives more value to colossus than slayer which is the wild part

[smoky kayak]

ok but you can make the same argument about Bloodborne being shit for Slayer then (despite still being taken), because it does significantly less bleed damage than Colossus

[umbral badger]

bloodborne is not shit for slayer

not even close

[smoky kayak]

comparatively it is

[sharp wyvern]

would we still take bloodborne without mortal wounds as slayer?

[fresh spire]

since slayer has more free sudden deaths overall that rage is less of an issue where colossus is drowning in spamming executes with less sudden deaths

[smoky kayak]

Critical Thinking and Bloodborne are actually both worth more to Colossus than Slayer

[fresh spire]

Also factor in EP is a part of execute too.

[umbral badger]

you really can't make that argument LoL

[smoky kayak]

doubly so, when you factor that Colossus gains a lot more from Battlelord than Slayer does

[smoky kayak]

funny because we kinda just did...

you're getting hard stuck on something that isn't really a problem

[fresh spire]

i mean there was a reason colossus was still using warming up until they fixed apex was because execute ate too much rage

🤷‍♂️

[smoky kayak]

Arms has a ton of issues right now, but Bloodborne really ain't one of them

[jolly lintel]

Arms just sucks in ST, dial back cleave and boost up some mortal strikes

[sharp wyvern]

do you mean that collosus does less dmg so they are worth less ?

i knew we would need more mortal strike multipliers

[umbral badger]

top colossus bleed dmg vs top slayer bleed dmg on fallen king, does it look like slayer is doing low bleed dmg ?

[leaden garnet]

Feels strange to disagree with a warrior theory crafter, but this comment confuses me. Current Colossus takes basically zero execute talents, so even if critical thinking was donated to you for free you'd still barely ever press execute

[umbral badger]

it is not even comparable

[leaden garnet]

I think it's less rage efficient than even slam

[smoky kayak]

weird its almost like one of those logs did 20% more damage than the other

[umbral badger]

i am saying we fatal mark is gated behind 2 talents that do too little for colossus

[umbral badger]

OFC, one of them is slayer and one of them is colosuss

lol

but the colossus is noblewinter so you can't get much better dps than that

[sharp wyvern]

but isnt fatal mark supposed to be a slayer talent ?

its execute themed

[smoky kayak]

ok so let's put this in perspective then

first of all, Colossus isn't 20% behind Slayer, it's like 8% behind

Second of all, your colossus log there did 16% of its damage with Bleeds, whereas Slayer did 10%

[lone yarrow]

you can also technically run it for execute phases on bosses and I heavily fuck with fatality it's one of my favorite talents

it's just cool

[umbral badger]

not in any fight that ever has any movements

[smoky kayak]

So yeah, considering that Colossus dealt 60% more Bleed damage, I would say that Slayer bleeds are weak in comparison

[sharp wyvern]

im just asking cause it sounded like he said its a collosus talent gated behind a slayer talent

[smoky kayak]

now you're just making shit up lol

also Fallen King doesn't have that much movement, it's practically 100% uptime for melee (depending on how much you switch to balls or get targeted by poop)

[umbral badger]

so you are saying bloodborne is 'as bad" for slayer as critical thinking is for colossus when colossus dmg split is 4% execute dmg. the 10% inheret crit from critical thinking is literally zero value.

[umbral badger]

it has target swap,

[sharp wyvern]

so?

[smoky kayak]

I didn't say that, stop trying to put words in my mouth

Fish and I also already established that Critical Thinking is actually better for Colossus than Slayer (because Slayer is much more rage starved than Colossus is)

[smoky kayak]

that doesn't affect either hero more than the other

[lone yarrow]

that whole convo is messed up critical thinking is a bad talent because it's obligatory but then it's useless there and there.. it's a bit of a mess and I followed through the most of the convo xdd

[rose ibex]

I've always just thought arms has always had an identity crisis around its fantasy that hurts its overall design through a lack of focus

[umbral badger]

i never tried to put words in your mouth, you are the one who started arguing that critical thinking is for colossus the same as what bloodborne is for slayer whichi s factually wrong.

numebrs do not lie

[smoky kayak]

• I didn't say it was the same
• you posited I said it was weaker for Colossus than Slayer
• what I actually said is it's stronger for Colossus than Slayer

[leaden garnet]

I don't think Arms has an identity crisis. I think Blizzard doesn't have anyone working there that gives a shit about Arms

[lone yarrow]

I just want MS hits that are >2x everyone's DPS in the raid so I can see a big yellow number once in a while and visually notice the hp bar moving in instanced content

[rose ibex]

I look at fury and it has very clear goals in its gameplay that facilitate its fantasy very well.

Get rage and press rampage. Do it fast.

What the hell is the focus for arms?

[smoky kayak]

I'm also extremely confident that I know much, much more about this than you do, so I don't know why you're so intent on arguing

but I'm happy to humor you for awhile

[lone yarrow]

presumably press mortal strike and colossus smash on cd but we kinda lost the plot along the line

[umbral badger]

@smoky kayak either way i think it is really just a pointlessly heated argument so i will admit i got heated for nothing, all i am saying is, currently critical thinking should do more for colossus or bloodborne should do less for slayer and it's my opinion nothing more.

[leaden garnet]

Nominally, slow, precise, massive hits

[umbral badger]

not even close, i can tell you that i have also been a main arms and i have also been in top guilds before. so i am speaking for my personal experience.

[rose ibex]

Atm it feels like "drop big burst during colossus smash, and get more colossus smash" but single target kind of lacks the tools to combo properly for that burst

[radiant dawn]

[sharp tartan]

I feel like arms needs The Big Hit that Deals a Ton of Damage which is kinda what Demolish feels like to me except you can't hit Demolish nearly as often as a fury warrior can hit Rampage

[smoky kayak]

with respect, your personal experience of expansions past has no relevance to a brand new paradigm in this expansion

[umbral badger]

yes, and that's why i am saying it should be a more respectful convo always betwene people rather than "i know i am too good for you to be right" lol

[leaden garnet]

Give arms Focused Rage again

[rose ibex]

Yeah this expansion is quite interesting with the pruning and reworks

[leaden garnet]

🙏

[lone yarrow]

never thought I'd see a person unironically arguing with a guy who has a pfp that was under all the guides I've seen for a warrior during the last 10 or so years

[smoky kayak]

Your heart is in the right place - Arms talents do have problems
but your head is getting stuck on a particular thing that isn't really creating a problem - whether Bloodborne or Critical Thinking are stronger than one another, neither are the real issue

personally I would change Critical Thinking entirely, because I don't think it's particularly great design, but neither talent is creating an express issue right now - as you say, both talents get taken regardless by most (ST) builds.

• Arms' actual issue is the split between ST and MT dedicated talents causing it to lose a bunch of its (already low) single target in exchange for the same relative amount of multitarget as everyone else deals

[umbral badger]

we all been on his guides, does not mean there is no room for him to be wrong about something. and we all played htis game for so long you don't know who and what past experience anyone had

[lone yarrow]

not saying this isn't true, just pointing out the fact that this situation never occured to me as something I'd visually observe lul

[umbral badger]

yes, i did have that same opinoin, too many dedicated talents.

[stable fiber]

i play arms at a high level and idk shit about the spec i just kinda say words

[rose ibex]

Numbers aside, what are some easy ways you think would improve Arms' gameplay and make it more focused on its themes? Make it more fun?

[stable fiber]

just click the buttons right

dont read talents

[umbral badger]

yea yea i am just being dumb and stubborn to be honest, i also had a lot of background in this game so i get stuck on my stupidity sometimes

[smoky kayak]

well its not an observational issue, we've already definitively shown that Colossus benefits more from both Bloodborne and Critical Thinking than Slayer

but there are certainly personal preferences that get involved

[umbral badger]

i would say, if execute did a little bit more dmg for colossus i would have not bene argueing though xd

which i think we all agree it needs a bit of a buff

it's doing 40% of my slam dmg

LOL

[smoky kayak]

oh certainly, the damage tuning is atrocious

[umbral badger]

every time i execute it does fking 20k crit or 24k crit

[smoky kayak]

what they really need to do is decide what each hero is supposed to do

[fresh spire]

True lets remove SD reap first so we can work out if slayer is the execute class again first

[novel cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/slam-excited-hop-gif-15183461

[jolly lintel]

My favorite time playing war was during legion with jugg stacking up to 99. I like when warriors identity was big boy execute class

[fresh spire]

1 step forward 100 steps back

[candid pecan]

they decided they wanted to switch it up and in 12.0.5 we wont play slayer anymore

[smoky kayak]

personally, I'd have no problem with Colossus dropping Execute entirely and just using Slam or even Cleave the whole way, but they can't do that while still forcing it into Sudden Death and Executioner's Precision

[umbral badger]

i second that, although i love execute i do think it's being forced too hard

[halcyon valve]

real

[leaden garnet]

I feel like Colossus is intended to be the slow spec with massive crits, so not using execute is anathema to me

But that's exactly what Colossus is now

I could remove Execute from my bar and barely notice

[sharp tartan]

yea

[smoky kayak]

Idk, when you start asking about fun, it becomes a much more complicated question

• I think Colossus should lean more into Mortal Strike, Bleeds, and Demolish, while less on Execute - whether that manifests in it not using Execute at all is another question
• I think Slayer should lean more into Overpower and Execute. On a philosophical level, I don't think it should be talenting into Battlelord (meaning, I don't think Battlelord should be a particularly strong talent for it, because it shouldn't care about MS that much - it should still use it, but not benefit from getting extra casts so much)

[umbral badger]

@smoky kayak like is it me or does it feel like for colossus sudden death, improved execute, massacre and executioner precision serve the exact same purpose of just empowering mortla ?

[halcyon valve]

arguably that whole mismatch is lessened by the fact that executioners precision dmg is pretty nice, and execute applies deep wounds, which colossus technically has bonus damage for, but meh

[fresh spire]

Executes rage cost just doens't work with the current versions of wow, its shifting rage cost makes it dump way to rage when you sometimes don't want it to, even more so when critical thinking isn't taken. CT needs to be revised, Executes base cost needs to be made Static to prevent rage fluxuations, maybe they can finally tune rage correctly and work up actual supports for colossus and slayer.

[umbral badger]

i might be wrong about that but tht's how it feels like ot me now

[smoky kayak]

oh absolutely, EP is a huge damage bonus

EP should be swapped with Fatality - it makes perfect sense that Critical Thinking would gate the talent that encourages Executing more

[umbral badger]

ok i have not thought about that, but that would actually fix things

in some ways at least

and do we know how good is master tacticion as a design now ?

i don't see anyone touching it

[smoky kayak]

incredibly bad

well, maybe not incredibly

but it's not good

[fresh spire]

Issues with the mentioned above is that your still forced to take ravager or CT to get to Fatal. The central node needs something more suited for colossus, and im not talking stronger ravager.

[smoky kayak]

and that i think is a design flaw - I think Slayer should care so much about Overpower that it wants to take all the "proc Overpower more" talents... and yet it doesn't actually take any of them

[umbral badger]

since they gated uhinged in slayer's hero talent i do not think there is any fixing for ravager possible

unless ravager magically had an interraction with demolish which i can't see possible

[leaden garnet]

Imo Slayer should be the bleed spec and Colon should be executed and MS

[fresh spire]

We don't want ravager fixed, we need it gone. They should just put something simple there as a talent that just works for colossus in all situations.

could legitmately put a talent there that just makes colossus smash Actual damage a huge nuke and it would be better than my cleaves hitting harder while i have another button that never lines up

[umbral badger]

sometimes i do wonder why don't they just gate bladestorm into slayer, and let thane and colosuss not use either bladestorm or ravager lol

[smoky kayak]

Ravager should just be replaced with a talent that makes Colossus Smash deal ~250% more damage

• it's passive, so no additional gameplay complexity
• it more universally benefits both ST and MT
• and it would be extremely on brand for the Colossus spec

[umbral badger]

i don't know if fishy and arch would agree, but i think the argument of colossus being bleed is more theme based, whereas colossus hits so hard and applies an after effect

that's why slayer won't become the bleed spec

[smoky kayak]

I think you can make thematic arguments in any direction tbh

[fresh spire]

it would be a bleed spec if they didn't nuke the bleed talents from 100% to 15%

[umbral badger]

🤣

[smoky kayak]

its kind of like the "Arms is a master of weapons and warfare spec"
like ok... but everyone is going to have a different opinion of what that means

[sharp wyvern]

it means guy with a 2h weapon

[elder path]

https://tenor.com/view/mando-way-this-is-the-way-mandalorian-star-wars-gif-18467370

[rose ibex]

I've been thinking a lot about how some classes and specs seem to recieve a lot more attention than others and I think it isnt so much due to any real favoritism but more so that certain specs just have a more cohesive theme that makes it easier to design around (demo lock shits out demons. Its fun and it works!)

Where as Arms is just this dumping ground for warrior mechanics that kind of date back all the way to vanilla. Things like sweeping strikes, execute phases, and basic rage-on-hit and spend mechanics that designers (and possibly players) seem hesitant to sacrifice for a more cohesive kit with clearer design goals in its gameplay

[umbral badger]

ion hazapotato already give us the strict theme of arms being the "2 target cleave build" but it is not even close to winning on lightbinded vangaurd xd

whichi s funny lol

[smoky kayak]

tbf Ion doesn't dictate class design direction

he's also probably one of the smartest and thoughtful dudes I've ever met, so be nice

[rare kite]

wat? it is close tho... it's literally top 2 on that boss

[fresh spire]

Most people who played colossus in S3 liked that a good portion of its damage was just rend and old deep wounds, no fuckery, press rend and cleave and it just ticked away, it gave tons of value to Arterial bleeds on aoe giving colossus a much better single target set up since one vs many was weaker than bleeds. cleave was way more balanced in colossus S3 comparitively to now. Demolish was also a nuclear bomb in s3 compared to now

[sharp wyvern]

did ion even say this or was it a dev note on patch notes

[umbral badger]

yes but not the king of 2 target as implied

also

[elder path]

Think it’s the latter

[rare kite]

bruv

[umbral badger]

i9t's MM

the king of 2 target now

for some raosn

no background on MM

[smoky kayak]

MM 2 target was also bugged and recently hotfixed

[umbral badger]

sdo i don't know what MM does

that shit is soloing boss dmgf

LOL

[smoky kayak]

but part of that is just because MM is also much stronger than Arms

[elder path]

But king of 2 target is a dogshit niche to hold if you aren’t particularly proficient at anything else

[fresh spire]

If blizzard actually tunes arms to be good for single target it will heavily compete in 2 target

[sharp wyvern]

MM has guaranteed crits on its strongest ability now and it passivly cleaves to another target

[umbral badger]

yea if you are doing 75% to 100% copy of your ST and you are not number 1, it's painful to see.

[rose ibex]

I understand mm is overtuned

[umbral badger]

damn

[rose ibex]

Or at least compared to other hunter specs

[sharp wyvern]

basically imagine if our apex talent would be "MS always crits now and crit chance increases crit dmg "

thats what they have

[umbral badger]

i am still waiting to see the tuning, if they revert UH dk nerfs completely we will just see UH dks on top on most fights

lol

[fresh spire]

3% buff to unholy

[umbral badger]

uh dks already doing fine on some fights

[sharp wyvern]

good at ST and good in aoe

[rose ibex]

Meh. The tuning will continue

[umbral badger]

that confirmed ? that would be nice.

[rose ibex]

Weeks on weeks

Zug zug no think about it

[smoky kayak]

tbf there's no rule that two specs can't share the same niche either

[sharp wyvern]

class tuning dropped

[smoky kayak]

but I think if Arms started off as strong as MM, then it might be a diff story

[umbral badger]

yea that's fair tbh,

[vast helm]

ZERO

[sharp wyvern]

oh no

[candid pecan]

yepp

[coarse ore]

Bro what

[vast helm]

ZERO~~~~~~~

[coarse ore]

Lmao

[elder path]

Tuning is out and we aren’t mentioned

[candid pecan]

too strong on paladin bosses gg

[elder path]

POGGERS

[coarse ore]

Tuned off of paladins boss alone

[sudden fox]

LOL

[umbral badger]

@smoky kayak i have to ask, what kind of shit can ppl do to get theri classes buffed like actually ? i see ppl in here now are trying to just do posts and i don't know if blizzard even care about that lol

[vast helm]

WE ARE NONE

[umbral badger]

already out ? or the data mined thing

gotta see

[elder path]

The wow head article just dropped

2 min ago

[sharp wyvern]

[umbral badger]

damn

we don't exist

[elder path]

BM ele and the rogues got their buffs

Arms ignored as always

[sharp wyvern]

i told you if there is a boss that makes arms look ok we dont get tuned

last season repeating itself

[rare kite]

@minor gust paladin bosses strikes

[boreal remnant]

selective data aggregation, we love it

[minor gust]

ooo was I right

[elder path]

Same happened with WW monk last tier with soulbinder

[umbral badger]

I AM TELLING YOU GUYS that padding that we are getting on useless adds is gonna make blizzard think twice before they buff us :d

[midnight kraken]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[umbral badger]

apparenlty that padding made us not "outliers" enough when we are doing tank dps 😄

[fallen locust]

no buffs

lmao

[vast helm]

https://tenor.com/view/higuruma-hiromi-hiromi-higuruma-jujutsu-kaisen-jjk-gif-3977056725828219167

[smoky kayak]

stop playing them
i'm not even joking - the only thing Blizz responds to is numbers

[weak rain]

HAAHAHAHAH

[dreamy sandal]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[weak rain]

IS THIS FOR REAL

ICANT

[sharp wyvern]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[soft relic]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[minor gust]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[odd cypress]

Ss Watch for now

[umbral badger]

yea i forced my self into fury since i ain't gonna drag my guild down when mythic starts lol

[shy dew]

why blizz hates us

[gusty oxide]

Its so doomed

[sharp wyvern]

its never been this joever

[wind hatch]

lightblinded vanguard singlehandedly stopping us from getting buffs

[shy dew]

3 posts in bluepost, 1 wowhead post and nothing

[rose ibex]

I am once again shocked mages are completely untouched

[smoky kayak]

yup

I said it before, Blizz refuses to nerf Cleave for some reason

[odd cypress]

Well dk here i come

[jade junco]

Close the discord

[smoky kayak]

and Arms overperforming on that one fight is gonna ruin it for everything

[umbral badger]

hahaha

true

[dreamy sandal]

We shutting the discord for once? seems to be doing wonders for other specs

[umbral badger]

i swear i called it out, the trended image that showed arms as "average" when it was pure padding, i said that shit will ruin it for us and on top fo that lightbinded

[dreamy sandal]

Not really, but we do need to at least complain harder

[night mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/higuruma-hiromi-hiromi-higuruma-jujutsu-kaisen-jjk-gif-3977056725828219167

[umbral badger]

in fact all the buffs seem to be based on that image, rogues for example 😄

[soft dew]

It's still doing tank damage on ST but shit is fine

[astral yarrow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/148898720803586048/1402024314978439373/Doom_Gif_2.0.gif

[soft dew]

Wtf is wrong with Blizzard

[smoky kayak]

it's not padding, it's just one boss that it happens to be really good for throwing the curve

[candid pecan]

but like...

[smoky kayak]

but again, its only good at that boss becuase Cleave is fucking nuts

[sharp wyvern]

its like rashanan for fury

[smoky kayak]

and they refuse to nerf cleave in exchange for an aura buff

[umbral badger]

yea but hte first popular image ppl shared all over the place was overall padding, right ?

[spring vale]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/148898720803586048/1484017612227608670/a1vjj2.gif

[umbral badger]

i think

[smoky berry]

close the discord

[smoky kayak]

I dont know hat image that was

[sharp wyvern]

they love cleave and they love whirlwind look at the 0.5 patch

[rose ibex]

Do you think they designed it that way to keep it simple for future tuning?

[smoky kayak]

Maybe they're expecting Midnight Falls will also be a big cleave fight, idk

[elder path]

You would think quadrillion dollar company would like, think more critically than Warcraft logs all-boss damage charts

[rose ibex]

Its just really weird that cleave has so much support and everything else feels weak

[elder path]

But I guess not!

[smoky kayak]

I'd love to know when this future tuning will happen, because so far there hasn't been any!

just saying
https://x.com/Archimtiros/status/2035094089587167666

Archimtiros (@Archimtiros)

@Herotherogue @BlizzardCS It's ok, Arms performs really well on one fight because it can drop 25% more single target to just spam the one button its entire damage profile is wrapped up in.

X · Mar 20, 2026, 8:40 PM

[rose ibex]

I will not give up on hope

[eternal edge]

Nothing for arms with the new patch notes

[sharp wyvern]

[rose ibex]

For if we lose hope then we only have cleave

[umbral badger]

ahh, it went giga trending all overthe place on many class discords and reddit, arms was "above average" on it but it was overall day 1. the patchnotes are actually resembling that image very well

[runic rock]

Did they seriously do tuning and not touch arms?

Like seriously?

[minor gust]

we own on 1 boss thats good enough for blizz

[jolly oar]

Are we even surprised anymore?

[plain latch]

at least we'll be on rwf 😄

[sharp wyvern]

so everytime there is a council boss or a boss with some resiliant adds arms is gonna be bad

[spring vale]

I genuinely believe they expect dps warriors to spec between arms and fury depending on boss

[next sphinx]

guys, I don't think warriors are back

[umbral badger]

mortal strike 8% dmg on anything is a human crises LoL

[sharp wyvern]

a passive dot doing almost more than MS

[plain latch]

i mean why would you press ms

[hard juniper]

Id assume this

[vast helm]

SAVE US

[umbral badger]

yea, it went trending as if it means something

[fast wedge]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/additional-midnight-class-tuning-incoming-march-24th-380891

[minor gust]

I mean that is what a majority of the raiding base does.

[umbral badger]

in fact that image i think was the thing that got UH dks crying

[stable fiber]

🐌

[smoky berry]

my guild us using this to tell me to stfu about arms being bad

[sharp wyvern]

just wait for everyone to have 4p
arms is gonna drop further down on other bosses and go even crayzier on the council boss

[fast wedge]

LOL

[umbral badger]

EXACTLY, this image was a padding image that literally convinced most ppl that arms is fine lol

[hard juniper]

As a fury player in a high m+ guild..... i share in your suffering. Fury cannot pad when other burst faster

[mortal rivet]

how did marksman get buffed

[stable fiber]

the bug fix was a massive nerf to them

then they nerfed hydra which gutted them on paladins

they got what arms should have gotten

a aoe nerf and a st buff

[umbral badger]

fury slayer pads fine with bladestorm tbh

[smoky berry]

just be good on 2-3 fights due to cds good on ads, and get nerfed to the ground for the rest of the tier, like nerubar

[sharp wyvern]

and yet fury was ahead of arms for every tier

[smoky kayak]

been asking for it for months

[umbral badger]

i love how one padding image changed the history of the world of warcraft

[smoky kayak]

no it wasn't

[smoky berry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BGExKZhAcs&t=1s

[sharp wyvern]

was it undermine ?

[smoky berry]

felt like this vid kinda hit the nail

[next sphinx]

But isn't arms AOE nothing special in M+ anyways so we'd just be pushed out of there unless our ST got giga buffed to compensate?

[sharp wyvern]

cause for both gallywix and ansurekt people played fury

[smoky kayak]

Colossus sustained AoE is actually pretty high - its comparable with Thane
that's just mitigated by the fact that its single target is practically non-existent

[umbral badger]

as a vet colossus arms, i can tell you my aoe is broken

i had some well known tanks run with me the other days and they can't hold aggro when all cds

[slow saddle]

Wth

Nothing?

[fossil thistle]

@daring heron can we get an updated one.
DF feels so long ago

[umbral badger]

which is funny because it is so high during ravager + all other cds it is actually a nightmare threat generation scenario

[next sphinx]

well let me rephrase, is our AOE strong enough that when they over nerf it and under buff the ST to compensate, that we will be overall in a better place or are we just gonna have mid st and mid aoe. which I guess like, is the goal of balance but still.....

[odd ledge]

i cant believe

they didnt touch arms

i cant

[sturdy flicker]

So as just staying gutter? That's wild

[smoky kayak]

I mean that just depends on the numbers they use

[rose ibex]

My dps off the rip if the pull is big in dungeon is unrivaled amongst my friends

[slow saddle]

M0 problem

[spring vale]

they actually hate arms fr

[rose ibex]

And then it sharply peters off

[spring orchid]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[slow saddle]

Not m+

[next sphinx]

they don't let us dumpster bosses in execute phase anymore so I don't trust Blizzard to use the right numbers.

[umbral badger]

here is the idea, mortal strike should be useful during AOE, what we need is damage shifting so that the ST abilities do enough dmg on ST while at the same time adding some decent value on aoe.

we literally had that in TWW

mortal strike was doing decent amount of our aoe

i even remember bizentein saying "i find my self using too many mortal strikes in AOE cuz it is good"

[bitter escarp]

lmao

[next sphinx]

Yeah I guess I just don't trust Blizzard to do that if we say "nerf our aoe and increase our ST!!" theyre just gonna kill our AOE and say "slam does 3% more damage boyos"

[stable fiber]

i dont think they would do that

[umbral badger]

all i can say i doubt they will kill colossus aoe, they might kill slayer aoe though.

colossus is too much of a baked in AOE spec

[stable fiber]

more likely they dont do anything at all then kill our aoe with no st compensation

[bitter escarp]

anyone miss jugg stacks?

[spring vale]

no

[umbral badger]

i think the spec would stop functioning on EVERYTHING before it stops doing aoe

[signal oak]

get outta here

[vast helm]

im so sad

[karmic reef]

https://tenor.com/view/mental-cat-ive-gone-completely-mental-gif-20846828

[tacit crystal]

@minor gust i miss jugg

[minor gust]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1314374602285125712/1380938748677722223/WhyTheFuckHaveYouBeenDrinkingSoMuchMilkIfYouKnewYouWereLactoseIntolerantJesusChristDude.gif

[quiet hare]

https://i.imgflip.com/a2hzx9.gif

[next sphinx]

arms should get BS baseline again, and shift their damage profiles back into being the #1 at cleave specifically and buffing BS to be a good aoe burst. dont know if every class needs to have giga AOE but do agree they should all be similar in ST. Blizz could also maybe bring back condemn so we can execute and reverse execute em???

[untold trench]

I see you escaped your justified nerf... lucky. For now.

[thorn stream]

Justified

[queen garden]

Delete the channel

[shy dew]

i miss so much condemn

[umbral badger]

BS would suck for colosuss so i don't want it baseline ever

[next sphinx]

combine demolish and BS

ez fix

[umbral badger]

like at the same time xd

[next sphinx]

vote for me to be the new class dev. I will give arms heroic strike back whether everybody wants it or not.

[next sphinx]

yeh

[dusk geyser]

i said it in the previous tuning, there's no dev for warrior anymore and it shows 🤷‍♂️

[umbral badger]

i've been a die hard fan for demolish, just needs some fixing and i don't know what kind of fixing

[stable fiber]

if arms has good rage gen im all for heroic strike being a off the gcd spender

[shy dew]

he was fired at DF since then retri dev is working at war

[thorn stream]

Nah replacing it in this case i guess

[umbral badger]

do not remove my demolish , juts make it feel better somehow 😄

[next sphinx]

nah see I'll have to bring it back as on the gcd. then after 2-3 business years, luring blizzard into a false sense of security we push it being off the GCD in the final patch of an expansion so arms goes crazy

[shy dew]

imbue demolish together with colossus smash and make it moveable like SV boomstick and remove shit stacks u need to stack

[polar salmon]

Fuck the devs

[odd ledge]

https://i.imgflip.com/a2hzx9.gif

[next sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/real-recognize-real-cat-real-reconize-real-cat-handshake-cat-real-gif-3074015097383322374

[umbral badger]

maybe make demolish work with anger management, and allow it to stack faster but the stacks no longer reduce it's cd. then it will line up with CS always and the stacks would be stacked fast to get the power of the stacks as a solid thing rather than RNG thing

like i actually wouldn't mind that kind of change "roughly"

[shy dew]

i really hate those stacks bcs everytime it drops

[next sphinx]

just don't think arms should have a channel ability. if anything I think rampage would fit better for fury as a "stand your ground and swing wildly" ability.

[midnight kettle]

What's the one fight arms is doing well on

[sudden fox]

Council

[next sphinx]

BS at least looks funny and puts the panda tail facing god for 6 seconds or w/e and makes everyone have to look at it.

[odd ledge]

this one

[umbral badger]

yes, that's why i just thought of what i mentioned above, stacks feel shit cuz when they drop you lose so many buffs and values. i'd rather have demo on 45 sec cd reduced by anger management to line up with other cds and the stacks to be something esier to build

[sudden fox]

Triple cleave spam

[midnight kettle]

Ah ok

[sudden fox]

Horrific balancing

[odd ledge]

its over

arms is dead

[thorn stream]

Other way around for Colo

[umbral badger]

just don't use all your cds on the bubble by mistkae like i did yesterday :d

[next sphinx]

Not gonna happen Blizzard HATES anger management. they'd flat out remove it if they could.

[sharp wyvern]

as long as the next 2 bosses dont have any cleave or too much pad they will notice surely

[dim basalt]

lol

[thorn stream]

Since the guy above said bs should be baseline

[umbral badger]

i mean i would prefer angermanagement removal even more

[dim basalt]

If they really hated AM they would have removed it into Midnight

[umbral badger]

i hate anger management anyway, makes me unable to use trinkets

with avatar

[sudden fox]

Doubt

[sharp wyvern]

look at the old apex talent they wanted us to desync our CDs

[next sphinx]

we're cooking now. remove AM, remove demolish. bake CS into mortal strike. Make BS have no cooldown and generate rage and MS the only rage spender.

[umbral badger]

now that you mention it, they actually do want us to desync even more xd

[wind hatch]

I feel like the old apex talent without avatar would've been fine

It's when they reintroduced avatar that it became bad

[umbral badger]

but yea i've been an angermangement hater for a long time, i rather have a solid "know to when" on-use trinket with avatar and the burst

[next sphinx]

or they could make AM affect on use trinkets. ez fix

[sharp wyvern]

or just give us more 1.5 min trinkets instead of 2 min ones

[next sphinx]

But just 1 at a time I guess

[dim basalt]

Youd be surprised how many people consider it skillful to play around it

[next sphinx]

so the inferior classes don't get to uppity

[umbral badger]

1.5 would be useless now though, avatar is like 1 min

[sharp wyvern]

realy?

[umbral badger]

oh wiat

is it ?

[sharp wyvern]

does it not line up with every other CS?

[umbral badger]

i don't even remember

[sharp wyvern]

im pretty sure

[umbral badger]

ah yea it is

1 min

[dim basalt]

99% of the time you pop cds on cooldown so no not really

[umbral badger]

you made me doubt my self xd

2 cs , 1 avatar

[sharp wyvern]

but that would line up with 2 min trinkets

[umbral badger]

not good enough though, in that case you prefer proc trinkets

at least sims do

[sharp wyvern]

unless bosses have an amp phase

[stable fiber]

i feel like this bricks colossus arms

[sharp wyvern]

and also depends on how strong passive trinkets are

[stable fiber]

once you understand it though its easy

[dim basalt]

ye

[worldly rivet]

I haven't read the patch notes but did they say "after player feedback" again?

[sharp wyvern]

just a copy pasted line

[stable fiber]

its a cd rotation where you usually combine mini cds and its resets every 3 mins or so

[crude sonnet]

Guys, it's over. War is in the name and it's too intimidating so it'll get nerfed forever. Just reroll virgin paladin.

[umbral badger]

i had to do some weird shit ot make use trinkets work on some fights last expansion, but it was fun. i used the unyielding netherprism trinket with another trinket and somehow made use of both , not that i remember the exact rotation lol

[icy atlas]

You know you have to go Fury

[sharp wyvern]

netherprism was actually decent on saladguy

[umbral badger]

@sharp wyvern cuz netherprism you could stack for as long as you want "up to 3 mins of stacking or something"

[sharp wyvern]

but he had an amp phase

[next sphinx]

I've been playing feral. macro'd my tigers fury to say meow when I hit it.

[umbral badger]

and so i was like , oh so i can use this trinket once every 2 avatars and the other trinket on the other avatar

[umbral badger]

yea that's where i made use of it

the salad guy xd

[halcyon breach]

@astral yarrow is Arms good now

[umbral badger]

extreme case of ADHD does not help memory

[astral yarrow]

yes

bis'est spec

[next sphinx]

obviously, if it had any issues it would be included in the patches!

[umbral badger]

yes arms is very good on the 24th "couhg cough"

[sudden topaz]

At least we didn't get nerfed

Tuning out

[umbral badger]

arms is the best spec cuz we have a hidden upcoming buff , you just need to read between the lines.

[icy atlas]

🫠

[sudden topaz]

Nothing for warrior

[umbral gyro]

this is just a joke

[umbral badger]

it is not nothing ,it's hidden.

[sharp wyvern]

cleave too strong for arms to get buffs

[umbral badger]

you know what they say, "read between the lines"

[twilit flare]

Just called my therapist and told them about the arms warrior changes. Guess whos getting a wellness check

[jaunty drift]

wheres that meme ofthe guy who in the top frame is smiling and in the bottom frame is depressed

someone needs to make that as a warrior reacting to march 24th tuning

[next sphinx]

arms is the goodest spec cuz I can't read the other abilities so good and my momma says I look big n tuff in my transmog. when she sees me on my ret paladin she hits me and tells me I should go close my room down and cry about it. 🙁

[umbral badger]

lies, ret paladins like being hit, gives them pleasure.

[halcyon breach]

So happy to hear, maybe I'll resub just to come back to Arms

[next sphinx]

wait

[astral yarrow]

now is the time!

arms has never been in a better state

[next sphinx]

feral is better. the porcucat is BIS

[graceful sun]

Is that you Ion

[astral yarrow]

the class identity is really strong

[sharp wyvern]

why do people think ion has anything to do with tuning

[graceful sun]

Is that also you Ion

You can't hide from me

[next sphinx]

I can't yell at anybody else anymore.

[sharp wyvern]

we are all ion

[umbral badger]

it's more about why does he keep coming out and saying shit that does not happen 😄

[sharp wyvern]

like?

[umbral badger]

like arms being the king of 2 target cleave 😄

[sharp wyvern]

that wasnt him

[umbral badger]

in midnight :d

it was his intreview actually

[mighty bridge]

no nerf = buff in my book!!!! yippee!!!!!!!!!!!

[umbral badger]

i watched hte vvideo lol

[next sphinx]

"we're gonna nerf dks by 20%" then "alright guys we'll do some bug fixes and give you a bump back up to #1 uwu"

[sharp wyvern]

can you link it ?

cause i only saw it on the beta patch notes when they did some arms changes

[umbral badger]

nope, not boomkarking everything i watched before midnight came out :p

[halcyon breach]

Feed me gear and I'll come mortal strike the enemy

And buy me the expac maybe

[next sphinx]

ha ha you can't show something from 3 years ago? means it didn't happen nyehehe

[halcyon breach]

I'll tkae care of the sub with gold

[umbral badger]

that said if i did not see it wiht my own yes i wouldn't have ever brought it up cuz i don't care enough about what ion say anyway

it just got me excited

for nothing lol

[astral yarrow]

you can feed me gear for a couple of weeks and then you'll get a pity run at some point

[halcyon breach]

This is not a fair trade

[next sphinx]

are we supposed to eat the gear?

[sharp wyvern]

i only have this but cant find the actually notes

[torpid wave]

no warrior changes LOL! https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/us/class-tuning-incoming-march-24-2276710#29121409

[next sphinx]

WHAT?????

[jaunty drift]

https://klipy.com/gifs/really-that-is-shocking-news

[warm fog]

No arms mention is just lol

[untold trench]

[umbral badger]

you and ion might have had the same source xd

[warm fog]

Did you cut off MM at the top

[umbral badger]

joking ofc but yea it's not uncommon for the speaker guy to come out and say shit

[untold trench]

... no?

[next sphinx]

its a log showing what class and spec has the closest name to "Arms Warrior".

[mortal rivet]

Also ele getting a buff is going to be fun once they actually get tier

[astral yarrow]

From my perspective its very lucrative, as you get to spend a little time with me

[sharp wyvern]

you cut of MM

sus