arms

[bright ginkgo]

I just came back from playing this november. What the hell have they done to demolish? It feels like the damage is mega-delayed?

[eternal edge]

It's okay imho; but dmg are way too low to be ok.
Overall we're okay and arms players need to learn when to use def stance i guess.

[dim basalt]

Warrior is anything but squishy

[dapper estuary]

so I'm just getting back and was gonna go arms..but everyone is telling me it's not good this expansion. Is this the case for you folks dedicated to arms (pve and pvp)?

[minor gust]

Just heavily under tuned right now

[eternal edge]

yeah i agree, we're good actually with it.

[minor gust]

Yeah people who say warrior is squishy are the people who don't press SR and dstance

[dapper estuary]

tha'ts unfortunate. Thank you for the reply

[eternal edge]

around to 30% under other classes / spec in single target

[minor gust]

There will be more tuning on the 17th and likely more tuning throughout the next month. Should just focus on what you find fun to play as tuning is a constant revolving door

If your good at the game you will still outperform most of the player base

[dapper estuary]

well as I'm just getting back after a really long break..so may just go fury

[minor gust]

Ain't much to do during these 2 weeks so figure out what you like more

[vagrant hull]

My only draw to fury is I believe it still has the same stat priority as prot. So since it sounds like I'll be tanking for raids fury would be easier to gear for. But man, I haven't played fury in so long.

[minor gust]

Here's the real kicker. Secondary stats are pretty grossly overvalued. Just swapping out rings and neck is more than enough to be able to play 99% of the spec. There's no stat that a warrior doesn't want especially as we get more gear as the expansion goes on.

So don't ever feel like oh I can't play this spec because I have a lot of haste mastery vs Crit haste

[vagrant hull]

How long has that been the case? The last time I simmed to figure out how much I was cutting myself short was early TWW.
I still ended up not switching to fury, but I don't remember it being a super small difference

[minor gust]

Been like this since DF

Prob even SL but I didnt really play then

its gonna feel a bit bigger of a difference at the very start of an expansion when we dont got much secondaries, but the moment you start gearing with M+ gear and myth track gear

its gonna start to become negligible

[vagrant hull]

You're probably right to an extent but you might be understating it somewhat.

[minor gust]

just farm rings and necks for other specs if needed and swap whenever you feel like playing a diff spec

[vagrant hull]

I will sim it though, because now I'm curious

[minor gust]

Ive simmed everytime Im not just making things up

rings and neck carry

you had people in TWW say they cant play arms because they crafted vers embellishments when the diff between crit and vers was .01%

[vagrant hull]

haha, well I'm not that much of a min/maxer

[minor gust]

For example notice how when you compare season 1 Bis between fury and arms is a ring and a neck and one off piece. https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vDEEJMNi9xMQJBAtZHgVFT
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1kVAKFAkrU69aM2QgVecKu

its pretty much always like this. Farm a 2nd set a jewelry and your golden

even if you used the tier hands and not the crit haste one this sim uses guarantee the diff would be like .2%

[vagrant hull]

hmm, does that difference get larger for M+ cleave builds? Maybe that's what I was simming as I'm not too worried about ST damage for my OS

[minor gust]

Not really as Crit generally becomes a lil more liked for fury when it comes to AOE

same for mastery as arms

[minor gust]

@obsidian otter alright ready for some double arms shenanigans?

[obsidian otter]

yeah im game

[minor gust]

@tacit crystal you still play warrior come do an m0 or two

[tacit crystal]

my warrior already did m0

i was tank slave

[minor gust]

were both saved already just doin it for fun

come tank slave for us

[fossil thistle]

Identical dps to a 240 ilvl uhdk

We just have to wait 8-10+ weeks to get to it

[tacit crystal]

i gotta do hw

[umbral badger]

earlier today when i realized my mortal strike crits for 60k-100k and execute crits for 15k

what's going on with arms warrior execute dmg ? is it me or am i missing something ?

[minor gust]

its ok gigachad 212 prot pally came to save us

[gritty karma]

where in colossus multitarget rotation stands heroic strike in priority? Its smth like this? cleave > ms > op > hs

[minor gust]

Cleave will consume HS for you due to FOB

[gritty karma]

oh

[obsidian otter]

nah he was pulling so good

[gritty karma]

huge

[iron root]

No they made exe really weak. You basically use it only as a SD proc and if you have the rage for it in execute

Which so far I haven’t really had that luxury

[minor gust]

Slayer m0 dream dead

[untold trench]

See, I speaketh truth

Arms OpOp, toll the bell, thy nerf shall come

[umbral badger]

is that overall ?

cuz aoe is fine imo

[minor gust]

yes its overall

[umbral badger]

like aoe dmg is fine but it has issues, like the fact that nothing but cleave is doing anything xd

[obsidian otter]

colossus aoe is insane

[umbral badger]

yup, but as i just mentioned above, everything but cleave is useless

like you only care for them to add the 25% dmg to your next cleave it feels like

[obsidian otter]

mobs die during my bladestorm i dont even get to curshing como them lol

bosses though i won every boss fight even specially on fury

[flint cedar]

This is just multitarget? I am around 74k sustained at the 5 pack dummies

[minor gust]

Kitty right?

[minor gust]

yeah if only I didnt do subhuman boss dmg lmao

atleast 2nd boss I was able to pad on adds

[obsidian otter]

only close one was the amp stage one i didnt have reck for it 🙁

the amount of aoe damage colossus does is nutty though

[minor gust]

thankfully blizz details doesnt tell you how much dmg you did to what cuz im pretty sure all my dmg on 2nd boss was from adds

[obsidian otter]

no i saw i was ahead by like 10k and you just jumped on adds lol

[flint cedar]

Do Blinding Vale final boss Jet on your fury as single target and let Frozen get him some cleavage 🙂 I wanna see the end results 😛

[obsidian otter]

your overall is like 30% cleave damage next highest is 13% lol

[minor gust]

yeah during aoe pulls its like 40% cleave

its so dumb

ight I go make dinner thanks for doing those dung with me Jet

the double arms was fun to see

[dire hinge]

nerf cleave

[iron root]

Don’t worry cleave nerfs on the 17th and then we will be balanced

[obsidian otter]

yourdemolish higher on details but cleave is same

blizz dps meters are client side more accurate the cleave damage was spot on

[minor gust]

need to nerf bleeds more

cut to the bone 5% here we come

[obsidian otter]

so many pulls i was in bladestorm and enemies died before i came out to crushing combo them lol

[minor gust]

yeah thats how I felt playing with my rogue buddy

I was only doing avg like 37-40k overall because he would just kill shit while I was too busy in bladestorm

[obsidian otter]

oh i know my rogue is only 84 but dam they do so much aoe

wish they just shorten it same as fury so you can get off the crushing combos after

and like if you crushing combo first into bladestorm your just losing so much damage

run with a good survival hunter they just bomb fire bomb boomstick and everything dead..

you get half of your bladestorm in lol

[minor gust]

yeah its just gonna feel ever worse with the low haste right now

give us fury bladestorm and slayer is close to perfect

[obsidian otter]

would be nice

fury thane does better then fury slayer aswell specially in aoe

[minor gust]

guarantee you would have killed things before I could even press my demolish or finish my crushing combo if you were thane

[obsidian otter]

im just not fan of thunderclaping lol

wish i was

i wont force myself to play a spec i dont enjoy

[minor gust]

thats a shame because I think thane is a lot of fun

the TB sound effect carries it for me makes it feel so satisfying to press

[obsidian otter]

enhance lighting blast goes harder then thanes lol

i like enhance

yeah for me idk i dont feel like a warrior at that point and id just want to play my enahnce shammy

thats prolly why i dont like thane honestly when i tried it im like.. i could be playing enhance doing way more and feel like a lighting shaman

[robust cypress]

is arms bugged or just sims really low?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m3C3mxkyXrkGCzyQ4wwRbi

[obsidian otter]

they are low

[robust cypress]

🙁 I dont wanna play fury in splits

[obsidian otter]

i think the only time i got to crushing combo after the bladestorm was when i hit the 180k+ pull lol

[minor gust]

then you better pray for some big buffs on the 17th

yeah I prob didnt have cds ready right away that pull

[obsidian otter]

for most of that run i had to just CS bladestorm next pack CS crushing combo

I hated it lol

was like im ready for keys..

[minor gust]

the good feeling about colo is you got demo with every CS

unlike bladestorm

[robust cypress]

oh sims are using tww consumables

lol

[obsidian otter]

yeah thats how slayer should be to

[minor gust]

yeah idk why they didnt just remove the cdr from the slayer tree and kept BS on AM.

[obsidian otter]

shorten bladestorm length down to furys lower CD of it so it aligns with CS

gg

[minor gust]

its really dumb but whatever

[obsidian otter]

you already have AM then you have SD CDR for BS then they trying to add more CDR for CS in our apex..

like do they just not want us to press anything together

[minor gust]

yeah its really annoying seeing as that was a major complaint all of TWW just for the problem to still exist in midnight

we dont need multiple different sources of CDR all that does is create bad gameplay

[umbral badger]

deep wounds issue is that it's only applied on crit now "techincally" half the time on ST i don't see it on my target cuz my crit is like 18%

[minor gust]

you aint gonna get me to agree with that

new DW owns

[umbral badger]

i am not saying it's bada or good anyway

i am saying it is a problem early cuz of low crit

so i assume it will be fine later when we crit more

[minor gust]

it will get better as you get gear this season well be flooded with secondaries soon

[obsidian otter]

once you hit 25-30% base crit without procs its up all the time specially during crushing comobs

1 of those 4 are gonna crit

[umbral badger]

for ST you probably need 30%-40% crit "accounting for bad rng"

but on ST we might even have the bleed on execute anyway

problem will still be on cleave

cuz you'd want your bleed to be applied fast not when things die

[minor gust]

demo applies DW

[umbral badger]

i would assume once we hit the 30%-40% it would feel good overall ofc

demo takes forever to reset with the changes though

ain't relying on that shit

[minor gust]

so when it comes to on pull you will get bleeds on everything

[umbral badger]

that being said it wil lreset more with crit i guess

[minor gust]

and you will be applying a lot of cleave

[umbral badger]

it's just sad how slow it resets now cuz we don't get MS procs anymore

[minor gust]

in aoe Demo is the same CD as CS the problem comes in ST

[umbral badger]

we would use ravager to reset it before

no in aoe demo is much highercd

much hgiher

[minor gust]

I just did 2 dungeons as colo

[umbral badger]

cuz we don't have sweeping + ravager mortal anyway

[minor gust]

CS and demo are never desync in aoe

[umbral badger]

it's not a debate when it is just factual :p your ravager just gave you a full demo reset

so in that sense we have many less demos

that being said you do get 2 CS and 1 demo rotationally now so that's not bad

[minor gust]

with the changes and lack of ravager you arent holding demo for 10 stacks anymore

thats a thing of the past

[umbral badger]

i mean i would say you ain't holding it but at the same time you are rarely reseting it is my point

you get what i mean ?

[minor gust]

build stacks with MS and cleave while tank pulls drop rava cs ava and spam cleave till no more crushing and send Demo before CS falls

[umbral badger]

it's like you are just building the stacks for the most part around the same time it's own cd is back

so it's much less of a "reset" mechanic now

so yes we use it when it's ready

but then by the time we get 10 stacks on ST the cd is already almost over

[minor gust]

it never was im confused why you keep calling it a reset xD

[umbral badger]

that will be better with crit

well

the point i am making is, you were able ot hit 2 demos in less than 10 seconds with the mortal spam in aoe

tht's what i mean wiht "reset"

[untold trench]

https://giphy.com/gifs/cat-smirk-monkeycatluna-91BCkba1STSmzb4UWK

[umbral badger]

now since that's impossible, it feels that the reduce CD mechanic is not really doing much

[minor gust]

that was possible but not common

if you had all cds and good crit luck + lust that was a thing

[umbral badger]

because now by the time you hit 10 stacks "at least on ST" your demo is already almost ready so you don't get to cut hte cd

[hollow wave]

Are there anybody playing arms?

[umbral badger]

personally it is the only thing i majorly deslike because i do enjoy reseting demo and doing more of it

[minor gust]

yeah ST and demo is a huge problem but aoe it plays like it always has

[minor gust]

woulda been a 3rd arms warr in the key if we could have found one

[umbral badger]

i wouldnt' say it plays the same in aoe because i was able ot double demo on one pack with ravager, but since demo "role" on aoe is different now i don't think i can compare

[minor gust]

[umbral badger]

but i would say, i'd like to replace the cd reduction mechanic it has now with something else "like direct dmg or reduced base cd"

but maybe it will feel good later in the last season with huge crit chance

[minor gust]

in ST not really sadly

and I doubt you will ever get your double demo back

[umbral badger]

to be fair to your point though, part of the reason why we reset it less now, is that we would use sweeping mortal strikes more before which is a hug ereduction to cd

now this 4 cleaves in a raw thing changed how that works

we cleaving way too much

also is the free slam when we cleave giving us a chance on HC ? i literally never got a HC when i cleave

[obsidian otter]

its like in a zero colossus does more aoe burst then slayer due to how long our bladestorm goes our aoe was pretty close i had one aoe pull where I actually was able to bladestorm and crushing combo but still was doing almost 100k aoe with just using 1 or the other it just hurt my overall. But boss fights still out dps colossus

[umbral badger]

HS*

[minor gust]

the cleave dmg is making up for it trust but yeah if getting demos back fast was your thing that made you love colo then yeah sadly thats lost. It still plays well enough in aoe where CS and Demo doesnt desync and you vibe.

[umbral badger]

it was my thing because it was fun in the way you can utilize it :p

it gave us a very special "move" or "role" where if you need to one shot adds, pre preparing a demo is one of the strongest if not the strongest 3 seconds burst in the game on aoe by far

so the resets did feel good to have that happen more often

[minor gust]

can do another slaver vs colo run later without a sham TBH I think my life is a lot harder without skyfury as colo

some bad rng and I cant even do my opener

because I wont have the rage

[obsidian otter]

enemies still die to fast for me to get off crushing and bladestorm on pulls 🙁

[umbral badger]

i am not having the rage issues as colossus on aoe tbh

[obsidian otter]

but ill be down for sure when ever

[umbral badger]

like my rage issue on aoe is very rare as colossus , probably because i prepare a few rends before the tank gathers everything.

so a few thunderclaps to regen my rage basically.

[minor gust]

depends how much is pulled yeah. I was having rage issues on dummies which is only 5 targets

more and Bloodsurge will carry

[umbral badger]

yea i assume on dummies it sucks

[minor gust]

like I couldnt do my opener I had cooldowns running spamming cleave and I would run out of rage mid cds cant even finish my crushing combo

[umbral badger]

to be very specific how you would wnat ot regen your rage form what i saw on aoe is, when the tank is pulling you make sure you apply as many rends as possible before things are completely gathered so that you are gauranteed to have rage

[minor gust]

insane to remove rage from ravager

[umbral badger]

but if i would chargei n thudnerclap then go all cds i'd have zero rage

also i am double charging to be fair

meaning, the moment somethign is pulled i charge, then recharge on the furthest target of the pull

[minor gust]

yeah I know how to play colo

[umbral badger]

i am not saying you don't know i am saying this is how i have no rage issues :p

on ST rage issue becomes very clear

to me

[worldly rivet]

I think Arms is the only spec not putting 4 points into their apex. It's kind of strange that they doubled down on something in the class tree already.

It's also just extremely boring. Unholy's 4th apex boosts two damaging abilities and causes a summon to do damage. Actually, most of the mele ones are kind of dull but Arms is the most dull, lol.

[minor gust]

I didnt have rage issues during the dung but not a perfect test if I also have skyfury helping out a lot

[umbral badger]

because the rend thing seems to be a way to work around the aoe issue, but ticking rend on one target gives no relevant rage

[umbral badger]

i am doing that, 4 points into apex, not because i think it's good or bad just because i don't even know what to do with those points xd

like i would love to use fatality for example but i ain't putting 2 points in execute when execute is Zdps

[worldly rivet]

I am putting the extra point into Martial Prowess

[minor gust]

if your doing dungeons your gonna be doing something like this

[umbral badger]

i am doing t his basically so we are pretty much diong the same thing except for overpower under 35%

which won't really matter much between both our options anyway

martial prowess does look "logically" nice, but until the 17th trying to improve your ST seems irrelevant lol

[minor gust]

nah would be minor diff but that 4th apex is just so trash almost anything is just better

[umbral badger]

my resto druid ST dps becoming restodruid +1% , not gonna invest in improving my ST

[worldly rivet]

I play Slayer because I hate ravager. I'm also not good at the game

[umbral badger]

well

the reason i was convinced of using the 4th apex is

[minor gust]

only thing is that OP talent does effect DN so it is more dmg for aoe.

[umbral badger]

it double resets when you have sweeping

[minor gust]

but its m0s so mobs dont even live so its just whatever

[worldly rivet]

I only play mythic to get achievement and then don't go higher. I am always safe with a non meta class since I always run my own keys.

[umbral badger]

to be fiar i did not know overpower dmg affects DN , i still would like to keep the 4 -8 sec reduction on CS though that i am getting but yes it won't be a huge difference overall

[minor gust]

everything that buffs OP buffs DN

[umbral badger]

like i used to play wow very competitively up to draenor then i stopped until last expansion and throughout the last expansion DN felt like whatever

it's just there existing

[umbral badger]

yea i gave up on trying to compete in m+ last season even when i had a very top overall m+ score, gear and raid logs i still never found spots

[proud remnant]

can they actually fix this talent to make it good for AOE

[minor gust]

they over nerfed it. its pretty sad because strong DN is always a lot of fun

[umbral badger]

i mean the way i see DN is that it was a signature arms aoe mechanic

now you can remove it and won't feel a difference.

[minor gust]

at this point yeah. Think its been around since BFA

[worldly rivet]

I was playing Survival hunter. It pumped with the bleed changes. But they really, really neutered an already easy and straightforward rotation. Lots of buttons but only one proc which didn't happen a lot. Running your own key was a blessing.

[minor gust]

it was an azerite trait not even an arms abillity/talent

[umbral badger]

even running my own keys at some point became undoable, ppl wouldn't join me when i was trying to get on the same boat as the top key runners who would look for VERY specific setups.

arms warrior had one relevant setup i think or 2 but not popular enough to find grps all day

[minor gust]

S2 arms was able to thrive due to phys comp

S3 just got overshadowed by fury

[worldly rivet]

Well I never went above 11 so we probably had a different experience.

[minor gust]

but arms was still pretty good in S3 in M+

[umbral badger]

i mean to be honest running 10s and 11s is just like running normal dungeons by the end

[minor gust]

colo cranked in aoe

[umbral badger]

there is a fundemental issue in blizzard philosophy which i usually call "reputation damage"

which is when a class is released giga weak in an expansion, it gets some kind of rep that it never recovers from

[minor gust]

its really more a player problem than blizzards

[umbral badger]

so i do agree wit hyou, i did not think i am weak.

in m=

m+

[fossil thistle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1230008337517514772/1273720854383165601/dead-arms.gif

[umbral badger]

i was destroying even some of the top frost dks in m+

but i wouldn't find spots anyway

cuz of that reputation damage

[robust cypress]

🙁

[fossil thistle]

fdk is pretty low in terms of dmg compared to top contenders

[umbral badger]

you can call it a "human problem" for sure, but it is literally a thing we know and have always been a thing in human nature, so you can't feed into it.

[umbral badger]

we talking about prev expansion not now.

frostdks were doing great cuz they had prio dmg, aoe dmg, survival, game mechanics cheats lol

[minor gust]

With season 3 specifically tho arms tuning was fine especially for keys. Which is why I think its a player issue not blizzards. People were inviting arms to keys at the start till Fury got a massive hotfix and become super dominant

[umbral badger]

@minor gust i meant blizzard when i said "you can't feed into it" cuz blizzard is feeidng into it.

[minor gust]

Ahhh

[umbral badger]

my point is, it is a human issue, not a player issue. humans get hung up on the "old reputation" of things even when things improve or get fixed :p it is our natural cultish behavior lol

but it's precisely because of that, you can't keep releasing classes that are completely useless

you have to make them at least accetpable on release and tune from there

you will see how demo and udk will ride this momentum in popularity even if they get nerfed hard lol

[minor gust]

yeah especially when its in a competitive enviroment and theres punishment for failing. People latch onto these "meta" too hard even tho they arent even doing world first keys where it mostly ends up mattering

[obsidian otter]

yup

[umbral badger]

i mean if we are being fair , it matters even in low keys if your class is doing literally healer ST dps lol

here is an example of my yesterday

[minor gust]

yeah well now were talking about midnight arms

and thats a diff can of worms

[umbral badger]

i was in murder row, our healer was weak as a healer, and that final boss does TONS OF dmg.

[minor gust]

S3 colo had low ST it was fine but midnight arms colo ST is just criminally bad

[umbral badger]

and honestly even though i destroyed on overall, i knew for sure my ST is the reason teh boss is harder thjan it should be lol

so i do think that kind of reputational damage is too big

[minor gust]

blizz has def massively fucked up with arms tuning

[umbral badger]

and is blizz fault

blizzard seems to always focus too much on immediate returns "systems that are gonna return money right away" and put the systems that can keep players in the game on much lower prio, i might be wrong.

cuz to begin with the main reason i quit wow when i was addicted to it was game balance

[minor gust]

yeah I believe in that shit too. Arms has been memed on so much from all the new expansion "tier lists" I dont think it will be able to recover in they eyes of the community. Even if blizz gives massive buffs to it.

[umbral badger]

back in draenor my bleed feral druid was already ruined "in play style at least", my enhance shaman was going down that same route and arms warrior was a struggle to keep me in top warrior seats

and i know MANY people who quit the game cuz of balancing

there is a brain worm in blizzard dev brains that convince them that ppl are quitting because of class design rather than numerical values i fel like lol

so even when we get to such a fun playstyle, they go like "oh ppl ain't playing it ? probably design issues"

[latent moss]

m+ players are just sheep

[umbral badger]

and i am like NO DUDE, WE JUST DO Z DPS

[worldly rivet]

I was only able to play S1 in TWW, but I never failed a key because of DPS, and I invited every single DPS class/spec to my keys. It was usually tank tuning that would brick my key.

[latent moss]

my favorite tierlist creator number 349533 said that this spec is bad so i will not invite them to my +14

bro its a 14

[umbral badger]

look , i always believed wow needs an in game POLL system

blizzard could use that data

[worldly rivet]

So I got really picky with which tanks I accepted which I thought was a bigger failure on Blizzard's part.

[umbral badger]

so for example if they do a pull every season "specificy your main spec" then ask questions like "what are the things that are more likely to make you quit"

i bet you most arms warrior would say balance if it's in the options of answers

lol

ofc non-arms warriors might answer other wise 'like fury enjoyers might say playstyle of arms"

but that's like saying "i want arms to be more like fury" which is irrelevant. if you don't like arms slow heavy hitting style then it's not for you.

[latent moss]

unfortunately that design was left in shadowlands

ever since df arms has been gcd capped and high haste

[umbral badger]

i mean colossus was relatively still one of the slower heavy hitting classes in prev expansion

but slayer arms was defo trying hard ot be haste based fast hitting

17th we will see if they are trying to make colossus same shit too

and if they directionally try ot make it fast paced i will just make this expansion my last lol

[latent moss]

they either have to just remove all bleeds from colossus and put stuff like mortal combo / cs proc on ms. or buff bleeds into the sky

its so stupid

cut to the bone was 100% in s3 tww

and now its 15%???????/

[umbral badger]

i could argue that one of the most loved skills of all times for arms warrior enjoyers was focused rage

i never understood why they prefer to remove such a mechanic than make it work

also bleeds could be fun, if they made bleeds feel like an extension of your skills rather than an entity of it's own.

so deep wounds direction is fine, but rend is not.

[latent moss]

yep

thats been my complaint for ages now

bleeds are completely disconnected

from the rest of the spec

they just exist and deal some damage

[umbral badger]

like if i hit 120k mortal and it leaves a linger 2 sec bleed of 20k would be fun

[latent moss]

thats mortal wounds ye

or trauma back in legion

[umbral badger]

yea

but again give me back my focused rage and take everything else

even demo you can take it

lol

and ofc give me the rage to use focus rage xd

focused rage now would be a meme

need 4 more m0s today so i can focus on poe1 release

league release

[median canyon]

whats the M+ spec, ST spec, and pvp spec for arms?

[latent moss]

slayer for all 3

not 100% sure about pvp tho

[umbral badger]

well, m+ colossus seems fine, but i would say ST spec does not exist

we have to wait to 17th to know

[median canyon]

true lol

[eternal edge]

m+ colossus is working but it's painful and counterintuitive AF, slayer is easier and better

[median canyon]

this what i been doing for M+

ok ill try slayer

[umbral badger]

that's the generic idea yes, i do go for more sweeping dmg if dungeon has cleave bosses

as in 2 target or 3 target bosses

and we do have a few bosses that are 2 or 3 targets or cleave faces so the 25% more dmg from sweeping helps a lot there

[median canyon]

whats your build?

[umbral badger]

sec

the aoe fear removal is helpful since there are a few fears in the dungeons as far as i an see

instead of your piercing howl

besides that as i said above the choice between improved sweeping and powerful momentum i made that choice just because some bosses have cleave

[median canyon]

ok

ima try it out

[umbral badger]

and the 4th apex talent just because sweeping hc does doeble "so 4 seconds in total"

that being said it makes sweeping something you need to think about on AOE

can't overlap and loss stacks between the free sweeping and the active one

and it makes it important that you don't forget to use your in between cleaves on ST abilities to proc HC strike

HS *

heroic strike

ALSO @median canyon and this is important, i was making the noob mistake of using Heroic strike in AOE. you just need to use your cleave "because it will use slam/Heroic strike automatically"

so do not lose a global on heroic strike

[median canyon]

oh shit really

[umbral badger]

yea that mistake can be overlooked easily when your brain seperates Heroic strike from slam xd

[shell arch]

i feel my dmg is so low x.x

[umbral badger]

voidscar arena i did shit dmg, no idea what's going on since it's my first time in it

[iron root]

You just made the lock reroll to a warrior now

[median canyon]

yea but thats fury damage right?

@umbral badger that build was fun but my ST is just dogshit

[umbral badger]

yes there is no fixing ST

arms single target now is 35% of a demo lock

[median canyon]

WIndrunner M0 ilvl222

[umbral badger]

but i usually go up to 55k dps overall

or a bit more

[median canyon]

oh nice

ima try the slayer build in the next one]

[flint cedar]

Yea I know I am still hopeful blizzard will put Arms ST into a somewhat good state so I can immediately switch back. Fury is fun at least until then

[median canyon]

i want to be the black sheep

[umbral badger]

slayer feels more random to me in aoe

LIKE SMAH buttons kinda random

[shell arch]

do you guys think the 17th balance will fix arms?

[umbral badger]

i genuinly don't

[median canyon]

im hopeful

[umbral badger]

the way i see it i think they have made some mechanics with weird synergy that does not feel very complimentary atm

but if we at least allow us to do dmg then i am fine

[spiral coral]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-nod-drake-yeah-agrees-gif-17851363

[shell arch]

how does this random ogres have ashkandur sword?!

[spiral coral]

Yeah I really do think Arms will be buffed to the sky

[umbral badger]

i am surprised you guys are hopefully afte the mess of hte last expansion though xd

[spiral coral]

Arms warriors are used to it.

[shell arch]

34% of the top dps is just too much

i've never seen the game so out of balance ever

the best dps spec of druids.. is the tank

[umbral badger]

the top dps does 3 times our dmg almost

[obtuse sluice]

It’s always like this though

Starts weak and then gets buffed like a mfer

[umbral badger]

getting beaten by a disc priest on ST xd

although messy fight

[median canyon]

thats ruff

[umbral badger]

didn't happen last expansion xd

we started weak and got "viable"

[obtuse sluice]

Bro if you weren’t demolishing as arms last expansion by the end it’s a skill issue

[umbral badger]

you can say that, but that does not change that it is all relative. and relative we were not top 5 for example. we might have competed on AOE but most of the top AoE specs had better ST

which is why they were top 5

what makes you top is a mix of aoe and prio and all other shti at the end of hte day

[obsidian otter]

leveling normal dungeons are scaled weird lower level you are the more damage you do and its based off your ilv so the higher ilv you can make yourself staying lower level you do insane damage lol

[umbral badger]

yea especially if you had full mythic raid gear like i did, i was smashing in low level dungeons.

drops off half way through

[prisma bluff]

slayer is good in arms

[tulip tundra]

An arms was blasting in a M0 I just did, I gave it up before the xpac to go surv. ST still fucked tho?

[minor gust]

if your good your gonna smash most people in an m0

things dont live and no one has tier

[tulip tundra]

yeah thats valid, march 17th cant come soon enough

[bleak arrow]

Robit lie arms OP nerf now

[nova marsh]

Yeah arms outdid someone

Clearly too op needs a 50% ms and cleave nerf

[umbral badger]

or like they did, anotehr 500000% single target nerf and cleave buff

so we can one shot an entire dungeon with one cleave and go afk during boss fights

[dense sphinx]

overall is actually decent, but ST bosses u look terrible

this was m0 magister's terrace iirc

[shell arch]

i don't get why they made a talent tha makes execute proc deep wounds...
usually when you get to the execute range, the fight don't last long, and deep wounds needs time to do it's damage.
It's not a good synergy

[dense sphinx]

you forgot about sudden death

[shell arch]

yet, rely on sudden death for that... doesn't sound good for me

[dense sphinx]

its just additional damage whenever u press execute, dont think too hard about it

and its only a 6s dot

[shell arch]

fervor of battle should work when hitting a single target, would rather use whirlwind than using slam

[untold matrix]

does overpower still buff mortal strike?

[slow saddle]

M8 top 10 were better

[umbral badger]

yea yea just responding to the guy who was talking as if colossus arms was top 3 or something

in s3 war within

[slow saddle]

Kek

It was crap

The st made it near unviable

The mass aoe just let u farm some critters

[umbral badger]

@slow saddle yup, ppl sometimes are satisfied if they can top overall meters in 10s and 11s which is fine if that's what they are into. but 10s and 11s does not have any actual ST requirement

[minor gust]

https://tenor.com/view/monster-versus-vs-alien-strange-mob-gif-12413747667150461911

[umbral badger]

at the end of the day if the group can't kill the boss because of you, they don't care about your aoe dps and you won't get a spot.

[slow saddle]

Also again dungeon pace matters

[thick hamlet]

this would be 2nd worst case scenario right after not getting any buffs

mainly because if arms gets mega buffed and outdamages fury, a ton of warriors will play it

which may give the wrong impression about the spec not needing a lot of love

[umbral badger]

that's not how things work anyway, blizzard only care about money that's why popular specs and classes always seem to get priority in balance and fixes

arms historic low pve priority is one of hte reason why it has one of he worst balance updates historically "it is in the very bottom as far as i know"

also we have yet to encounter the next issue if they fix ST. which is the fact that we had a decent talents build for AOE and ST. now talents seem to me more of an either or kinda choice.

too many important aoe talents now

[slow saddle]

Im at a point where is just take good st🤣

But arms needs 2 have 5% more st than fury, to ever be played for power

[umbral badger]

well, the way arms work, the least bit of "hectic" fight affects your dps MUCH more than of fury. so if blizzard really cared they would want to make arms dps much higher on patchwerk fight for it to compete in any hectic situation. primarily because arms have always rellied on mechanics that you can't just spam "like colossus smash ofc".. and you need it to actually debuff the targets so you can't open with it if enemies are split;.. etc etc

so yes, arms needs to be at least same dps as fury on ST for it to compete because even if you made them on paper exact same dps, with a little bit of movement and immunity faces ....etc arms will suffer...

[slow saddle]

It needs 2 be higher and op // dread needs 2 be good as fuxk

[cursive aspen]

I feel like this will be a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyways. I know everyone is saying the 4th apex point is a waste because it desyncs the cooldowns with everything else, sure that's something you can understand but isn't it already desyncd because of AM anyways?
So my question is why wouldn't we want to have our CS on a faster CD with the 4th apex talent as using CS doesn't it give us a damage boost or whatever for 10 secs? Wouldn't we want that happening more often than not?

[stable fiber]

Average CD Timings for Arms (+-10 or +-5 seconds for some buttons)

Avatar: 60 seconds
Ravager: 90 seconds
Colossus Smash: 30 seconds
Demolish: 30 seconds
Bladestorm: ~70 seconds (not entirely sure on this one, this is also very RNG)

Colossus smash with 4th apex: 20-24 seconds

Let me answer your last question first, sending a bladestorm or demolish without colossus smash effectively makes those buttons do 30% less damage AND both those buttons also buff you a pretty big amount after you use them (demolish gives you 10% damage, deep wounds, 10% haste and makes your next MS crit) (bladestorm gives you 15% haste while also hitting hard as FUCK and casting 3 (?) mortal strikes), its extremely important to use both demolish and bladestorm during your CS window and if you talent into the 4th apex you either are forced to hold it anyways, or you are forced to hold your best throughput buttons for when your next CS comes back.

Instead you can put that 4th apex talent into a much stronger talent, which i believe ends up being sharpened blades or strength of arms, which both buff hard hitting buttons by a pretty damn big amount

[umbral badger]

i don't see how is CS 30 sec average cd, i have 22% crit now and it was NEVER that low on ST

[stable fiber]

crit doesnt really change the cd on your CS

[umbral badger]

i mean demo

[stable fiber]

ah

on ST it isnt 30 seconds

[umbral badger]

with all the removal to Mortal strikes i don't see demos at 30 ever

[stable fiber]

on ST its around 40 i think

but in aoe it ends up being pretty short

probably less then 30

[umbral badger]

yup on aoe it can be much shorter than 30 "probably when we get more crit"

but on st it's like 36-40

either way i am finding the apex talent useful personally

i'd rather get the free cleave resets over the syncing with demo atm

ONLY reason i am finding the last apex useful is because you can use cleave to consume your Heroic strike procs

and it does double reset on aoe

[stable fiber]

sure its useful but is it really better

[umbral badger]

i found it more useful than teh overpower thing at least

[stable fiber]

what overpower thing

[umbral badger]

first just to not confuse shit, i am colossus not slayer.

second, people are going with the 15% overpower under 35%

so i am opting for more cleaves with the final apex which feels good ot me

also how the F do we get vetern crests ? i finished all m0 and preys and i am still at 120

[stable fiber]

prey and m0 are the only way

atleast right now

and the 1 time +10 you can get from the npc next to the upgrade vendor

so 130

i forgot about prey giving them, i answered someones question earlier about this

[umbral badger]

just got a 1.5 min trinket and realized avatar now is reduced by AM and will not sync with it

fk

hopefully they will give us 1 min trinkets

[stable fiber]

is it the seed

i also have the seed

its cringe for both specs

[umbral badger]

can't tell whichi s more cringe, the seed or @stable fiber

[cursive aspen]

Thank you for the breakdown, I didn't know you could use the last talent point into something else on our tree.
I just feel like playing arms you are already holding CDs anyways whether it's waiting for your BS to come off or your CS to align so really that shouldn't be the thing that stops us from using more CDR on our CS?

[umbral badger]

the seed is probably more dps but poisons your soul when it does not sync, and this is just useless

[cursive aspen]

I'm just trying to understand, thank you for your patience

[stable fiber]

asking questions here is fair

its a class discord

all good

[stable fiber]

the seed has to be more cringe

[umbral badger]

at this point, stopping CS is bad with how many cleaves it gives imo

[stable fiber]

since it gives mastery as well

[worthy mango]

Gota question for m+ we are playing slayer or Colossus?

[cursive aspen]

Does that matter with slayer?

[umbral badger]

oh yea it's mastery, it's giving me 6% dmg xd

what is this trash

[stable fiber]

both are similar, colossus is currently better though

[stable fiber]

matters less with slayer but still does

[umbral badger]

i mean as things stand, our aoe is like 80% cleave "i am exxagerating but you get me" so i'd rather have more cleaves than align shit

that being said, things will change a lot with set bonus

was it 1 more sec duration per cleave hit ?

i think

[worthy mango]

Thanks

[umbral badger]

but yea the rason that would change is that you will be extending CS a lot with set bonus and things will probably have much more chance ot be used on CS

[stable fiber]

cleave damage is around 50% of your overall rn, the issue is that the cleaves after your demolish are also MUCH stronger

[umbral badger]

is it really "MUCH STRONGER"

i don't know

[stable fiber]

yes

10% more damage and 15% more haste during your CS is like

very very good

[umbral badger]

yes but tht's not much stronger imo in the sense that you wouldn't want to have many less cleaves by delaying CS just so you can utilize 10% dmg

and the haste you can get it regardless of demo stacks

10%

i will need ot eventually work out my theory crafting so i can compete but the fact that the balance is fked now makes me not want to bother until i know the spec will be playable or not

give me TWW colossus back with that apex procs and i am happy 🤣

[obsidian otter]

other classes do so much damage compared to arms right now even our defences dont do anything. you can be in defence stance with stance master die by the sword 30% damage reduction and you still die in 5 seconds lol

[worthy mango]

Are we picking bladestorm even with colossus?

[stable fiber]

no

ravager

[torpid wave]

We are so cooked

[umbral badger]

well, time to go take a week break then log in for 1 day and wait the 17th. better play another game rather than getting annoyed by this xd

[stable fiber]

yo lowkey same

poe for 2 weeks

[rose ibex]

How are people feeling about slayer vs colossus?

[fresh spire]

Die colossus die

[rose ibex]

Oh no

[fresh spire]

Slayer is close to perfection for having its own ideal playstyle and goals. Colossus is a mess and should just be hard reworked

[stable fiber]

Idk I like both hero talents

Colossus is much harder to play though. Would be rewarding to be good at it if it did any damage in the first place.

Reverting the demolish damage then literally just raw buffing some ST buttons/talents put arms in a REALLY good spot imo

Our AOE is already pretty decent right now. The ST is just so god awful and it buries the spec.

[minor gust]

colo aint that much harder

[fickle dock]

Colossus is cool in aoe, cleave deals all the dmg with demolish, but my god ST is NPC follower tier. The spec just doesn't work in ST, needs rework.

[halcyon valve]

You can technically spec into having 30+ abilities on your bars, not including consumables 👍

[untold pewter]

I can't really understand how they messed col up this hard

Going from aoe to st in a dungeon is insane

I don't recall this kind of disparity

In previous iterations

[halcyon valve]

I felt this in a follower dungeon yesterday
4x the dmg of the npcs in aoe
Below them on single target

[untold pewter]

Precisely

[minor gust]

Colo has always struggled with producing good ST especially in M+ talents. It relies heavily on being tuned high. So no surprise when arms is at its lowest when it comes to ST tuning that Colo ST is insanely low

[ornate notch]

hey all, so what is the play for arms?

[dim basalt]

To spec Fury

[fresh spire]

S3 tier carried its St hard

[slow saddle]

Hear me out

Buff MS and Deep wounds ^^

[sharp tendon]

Did some of you also get some decline when trying do some m0 as arms? When i switch furry instant inv.

[versed lagoon]

Honestly I wish they just fuck slam off and give a talent like "If cleave hits one enemy, increase the damage of your next cleave by x% against your target." it'd mean talents like collateral don't feel ass to take when you are forced to ST

[atomic mountain]

give warry heroism, change collos to another hero talent, give collos/demolish as base cd

[kindred breach]

hero would be so cool

angriest shout

[atomic mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/screaming-gif-scream-angry-mad-annoyed-gif-1924792145441447316

[slow saddle]

Slam 100% does its job

Its the last choice when shit goes awry

Better than dead gcd

[fresh spire]

I'd just rather cleave was baseline and we rid ww

[pulsar elk]

so you know how we used to be able to have charge and rend in the same macro, and it would just use whichever based on range from target

is there any way to like.. add a delay in a macro or something? cuz now if you try to make rend and charge 1 button you just use rend at the start of your charge

idk why they couldnt have just made it require a target and be within range, like every other melee ability in the game, colo smash has the same issue

rend as a button feels so awful i hate it

[eternal edge]

There is no solution now

Tbh, it's for the better
Rend is aoe now so we need don't need a point for TC

[tropic crest]

why arms apl has this shit:

colossus_st->add_action( "thunderous_roar" );

colossus_st->add_action( "skullsplitter" );

[eternal edge]

TR is dead now!?

[tropic crest]

skullsplitter too

[pulsar elk]

true just gonna have to get used to it

[tropic crest]

are we simming on old build?

[fresh spire]

Nope. Not sure what your looking at to see those

Given sims don't even function if you have those abilities in it due to them being removed

[tropic crest]

Can you link an updated APL pls?

oh nvm i got it

my bad, i forgot to update the link on favourite bar xD

[oak flame]

hello guys, anyone has a problem with the demolish animation? i happened to be stuck in demolish animation especially the last hit my char is stucked for 1-2 second

[worthy mango]

Is the wowhead guide a reliable source?

[dim basalt]

yes

[burnt sand]

Yeah i got the same issue but only when the server is lagging :c its very frustrating

[limber apex]

How is y'all's performance in m0 as arms ? I just ran a dung and AOE felt okayish, but ST was very interesting

[simple lintel]

Same

[stable fiber]

The spec sucks in ST

Below tank in aoe

[limber apex]

It's also nice blizz didn't really prune arms, good to have all these keybinds

In pvp spec I need an additional full action bar on top of my usual ones

Very cool

[stable fiber]

Oh yeah "pruning"

Warrior didn't get pruned

Atleast not dps warrior

[limber apex]

Yeah, that's cool, we should get some more buttons tbh

It's more fun that way. Imagine playing ret pala or BM hunter

BM has like 1 cd on a 45 sec CD or so and 3 skills lmao

I hope blizz adds more stuff like Slam

[ancient otter]

I haven’t gotten to really start midnight yet, is arms worth playing at all?

[limber apex]

Hell yeah it's awesome

Not great dps wise

But fun , lots of cool buttons

[slow saddle]

Also no

[ancient otter]

Yea it looks fun from what I’ve seen of other people playing it.

[slow saddle]

Just play fury

[limber apex]

Fury is similar gameplay , just less buttons a bit

[slow saddle]

Play fury, gather arms gear

Wait for buffs

https://tenor.com/view/waiting-gif-4677175942198662182

[limber apex]

Fury is spammy, arms is spammy too

[dim basalt]

Fury gained a button

[stable fiber]

Lost troar

Replaced with rend

Practically the same thing but you need to keep the bleed up

[dim basalt]

Ah right troar was a thing

Still more of a hassle though

Even if not by much

[slow saddle]

Actually rend is roar now

🤣

Nice

Same dmf as well🤣

[weak rain]

arms is so op

[slow saddle]

Agreed 60% of the dmg with 50% of the weapons of fury

So 60+ 60 = 120%

[white stratus]

https://tenor.com/view/laugh-out-loud-laugh-ridiculous-hilarious-lolz-gif-17376550074772904877

[oak flame]

ty

[eternal edge]

It's worth if you don't care about numbers or don't want to be optimized for hard content.
Slayer arms is imho better overall when we talk about rotation and gameplay.

Colossus is f. Painful to play.
(Hate that demolish thing btw)

[flint ravine]

I love arms so much but god it feels bad to play right now

[simple lintel]

I like it, ST is a bit rage starved and lacking damage but other than that it feels rewarding.

[stuck yacht]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[fresh spire]

https://i.imgflip.com/977c65.gif

[vast helm]

https://i.imgflip.com/a1vjj2.gif

[gaunt owl]

Arms is were it should be

Dead and buried

People can move on with their life to enjoy now.

Btw its my fault

i keep spamming blizzard HQ with fake facts about how Arms is too strong

[minor gust]

Blizz Is waiting for you to come back to make arms s tier

[fresh spire]

Arms to busy ruining more than just arms let's be real

Arms is more of a numerical issue

They buff it enough I'm happy with slayer other than ct being cringe

[minor gust]

Remember when no CT exe rage starve was just a Colo problem, I member.

[marble valve]

its like i'm the only one but mechanically, slayer TWW was better: my thought

[halcyon valve]

Now we do the opposite and receive infinite buffs until we can solo raid bosses

[minor gust]

https://tenor.com/view/homelander-the-boys-side-eye-disgust-homelander-disgust-gif-8598740096398412855

[shadow ibex]

Fuck slayer

[fresh spire]

Slayer best hero tree

I used to live for colossus

But sd reap

Fuck colossus

Slayer best tree

[abstract cairn]

But 5% Size increase :3

[shadow ibex]

Im sick of seeing the spin

https://tenor.com/view/i'm-tired-of-this-grandpa-gif-14362525412688932500

SD reap is just SD clap but yall not ready for that conversation

This whole time its been right in front of our eyes

[gaunt owl]

thats one way to recycle idea

[shadow ibex]

You don't get a bleed but it does other stuff

Otherwise same shit. An aoe hit that does healthy amount of ap %

And procs on sd

[obsidian otter]

there so many abilities that are very similar honestly

[shadow ibex]

I think its only worth mentioning cuz people loved sd clap

[obsidian otter]

blizz loves moving stuff around they took the haste from in for the kill from our arms tree and put it in slayers kit and attached it to end of bladestorm.. They could just take reap the storm and remove cleave and just give us that for aoe skill on same CD as cleave add rend to it

[gaunt owl]

Sd Clap was far more satisfying

[obsidian otter]

start the pruning

[shadow ibex]

Idk why they removed iftk

They put haste in each hero tree

Same value as well

Doesn't matter either way ig

[obsidian otter]

people complained that they was wasting it due to having to bladestorm after CS so some of in for the kill your in bladestorm but it did make the bladestorm faster! so i didnt mind it

[shadow ibex]

Thats a tuning thing. You should always want to bs inside cs

If for any reason we push bs out of cs they made it do too little dam

[minor gust]

Btw I was talking with Fishy last night about slayer. Send bladestorm after you use all 4 cleaves from crushing. Currently what the sim APL does.

Same with any SD stacks

[obsidian otter]

This is my biggest issue right now honestly the damage difference for almost double the duration from fury to slayer makes no sense and fury gains more rage then arms using it..

[fresh spire]

Cleave>reapsd>Bladestorm

We get extra ticks/mortal strikes as compensation foe the duration

I dislike the cutscene though wouldn't mind it shortened a little

[minor gust]

We'd all rather have fury BS

[fresh spire]

Though at a lower duration and only 3 mortal strikes I wonder if we ewould have same issue fury has where its barely good to use bs

[empty sluice]

2 version of Bs is just bullshit

[obsidian otter]

you do less dps that way your doing cleaves without 5 stacks of overwelled even when you do it on 5 dummies your dps goes down when you press BS after the cleaves idk why sims would even say that its not more dps you can littery go to dummies and do CS x4 cleaves into BS and your doing less damage then going CS BS cleaves

its only a issue in M0s if you have higher dps with you in +10-15 keys on betta you get off it eailsly

[empty sluice]

It used to apply dw, but now arms bs compared to fury is just joke

[dim basalt]

Sims are more trustworthy than manual tests on dummies

[minor gust]

I doubt there's something wrong with the Sims dummy testing is always unreliable

Never trust dummies

[obsidian otter]

like you go from doing 100k to 89k doing cleave into bs where you go from 89k to 150k on 5 target dummines going bs into cleave

[obsidian otter]

I trust the amount of time i put into running keys in beta and in game doing it both ways its not better going cleave first

[minor gust]

@dim hill

[obsidian otter]

you can never hit a 180k pull going cleave into bs

you wont even hit 100k

[fresh spire]

It still kinda does deepwounds but only if it crits with ms 🙁

[obsidian otter]

your doing 5% less on every cleave 5% less on the reaps 5% less on the slayer strike procs 5% less on the HS/slam procs

[empty sluice]

Well same for bloodthirst

[dim basalt]

If you think youre right then dig into the sims and find out why its supposedly incorrect

[obsidian otter]

your putting your rage up so when you come out of BS your fully raged into the cleaves into everything else

[fresh spire]

Better cleaving in longer pulls as it extends cs all the same on all targets. Dumping cleaves to bladestorm into a cleave maximises the Cs boost

[obsidian otter]

cleaving before or after bs wont change the extended CS time on the tier set

[minor gust]

Logically it makes sense for BS to be used first but Sims are very rarely wrong when it comes to these things

[obsidian otter]

your still getting the same 4 seconds

[fresh spire]

You lose casts from cleave not being on cooldown during bs

[dim basalt]

Using cleaves first makes way more sense imo

When looking at the AP % of both spells

And everything else around it

[minor gust]

Design wise it doesn't. With haste and overwhelmed stacks being a thing.

Dmg wise sure

[obsidian otter]

using it once into bs sure not using all the charges into bs

[empty sluice]

They will nerf bs on 17th so we will cleave first anyway

[fresh spire]

Cleave+mortal wounds+slam+reap vs bs hitting like a potato and mortal striking one target

[empty sluice]

[dim basalt]

I dont think the haste part matters too much here

Overwhelmed stacks sure, I can see that

[fresh spire]

Haste doesn't matter as you extended the Cs and avatar lasts long asf

[dim basalt]

ye exactly

Whether you have the haste earlier or later is whatever

[minor gust]

It doesn't as the sim shows. Was just saying design wise at first glance without Sims you would think to BS first

[obsidian otter]

BS also does more damage on 8+ targets vs cleave lower behind 5 targets so your not wanting to Cleave over BS first on big pulls

[minor gust]

I'm sure the Sims were also compared on big pulls

If Sims are showing cleaves first I will be sending cleaves first.

[dim basalt]

Watch Blizz buff overwhelmed

[fresh spire]

They already nerfed it 5%

[dim basalt]

Which is good

[fresh spire]

Ye

[dim basalt]

Its the last thing Id want to rely on for dps

[obsidian otter]

I just simmed it twice first one said do cleave 2x into bs this one says do cleave 4x into 2x execute into cleave into bs...

sims so right lol

[fresh spire]

Rage starved into lucky procs

[obsidian otter]

doing it 1x or 2x makes the most logic sense specially once and if it procs reap for sure but if it doesnt proc the reap your not getting the same burst outcome

[shadow ibex]

They terrified of making bs do damage

[obsidian otter]

putting cleave on CD during bs makes the most sense

so you get like 5 off

so charge csCDs cleave BS

i couldnt even get over 100k doing that opener 🙁

either one of those cleave openers not passing 100k

something not adding up idk

doing bs opener into cleaves your at 96k on 5 targets before you come out of bs then you go into cleaves you jump to 140-150k

doing cleaves first you dont even peak at 100k your at like 60k go into bs your barly 80-90k

[dim basalt]

But what youre suggesting is just a very short time frame

Not the big picture

[obsidian otter]

yes i wanna do less dps then were already doing let me open with cleaves!

[dim basalt]

Ok then ignore my point for whatever reason

You do you

[slow saddle]

U bladestorm get haste , and u cleave!

[shadow ibex]

Put bs in hero tree so it can hurt

[minor gust]

Could very well it avgs out much better with cleaves first while playing for the short term BS first rewards a stronger first 15 seconds.

[obsidian otter]

here ill record it so you can see the difference because people have to see it and not test it theirself lol

[minor gust]

I would If I wasn't at work but again in game dummy testing and Sims are different.

APL was also created with full BIS/tier not what we are right now.

[obsidian otter]

its not about the buffs you have dummy testing or doing it on mobs doesn't matter your damage flux is gonna be the same it will be higher with all the raid buffs lust etc if your only doing 90k with one opener yet doing 120k+ with the other opener its going to do even higher with all those buffs

[minor gust]

Not talking about raid buffs I'm talking about tier and gear

[slow saddle]

Cleave wins with 4p

Basicly sending cleave after cs is free no?

Just prolongs anyways

[minor gust]

Current apl has cleave > SD > BS

[slow saddle]

Tbf sd facks

But even pull? Dont u want to build the 5% dmg asap?

U could also do naked bs into cds?

[shadow ibex]

Min maxing when they will tune

I mean nothing better to do till 17th but stuff will def change

When cleave is doing 87% of our dam

[minor gust]

Idk 5% isn't much and your still building that up with every reap proc from cleave and sd and MS it's not like BS is the only way to apply overwhelm

[slow saddle]

True true

Cleave desp needs a nerf

Aura buff 20% nerf cleave 20% buff ms 10% execute 20%

Now we talkin

[minor gust]

Cleave nerf and allowing fob to proc apex

[obsidian otter]

hopefully it lets me upload this opening with bs you hit 250k opening with cleave you barly hit 208k

no pots used same buffs only change is BS opener into cleaves vs cleaves into bs

this with tier set

i did it on beta with tier set

[minor gust]

When it comes to Sims it's not about the first 15 seconds of an encounter. It's about the avg throughout the whole thing

[dim basalt]

.

[minor gust]

Also surprised beta is even still up

[fossil thistle]

Typically getting CDs on CD over 5m is a dps gain

[obsidian otter]

sims has my single target for 2 mins at 36k on my fury warrior im doing 40-48k on 2 mins. fights without all the buffs from raid.. It also says to spam Rampage when Bloodthirst hits harder then Rampage and you should be pressing bloodthirst every 2 rampages but thats another story

[dim basalt]

Well yeah it probably uses Rampage over BT to avoid capping rage

Which is more important than usign the harder hitting ability in the long run

Context matters so much more than just some dps number on your details

[obsidian otter]

you should never be overcapping or wasting rage as fury if your pressing rampage 2x3 times into Bloodbath

[minor gust]

Depends on the CD and the CDR. Now that BS is not a part of AM you are more likely to hold. Currently are holding for CS always when before we just sent unless CS was close

[dim basalt]

And like it probably has been said a dozen times, sims are an average of many iterations

If you did as many iterations as the sims do you would probably be around the sim dps as well

[obsidian otter]

sims also based on 100% uptime on a fight in 2 mins where your usually not at 100% uptimes in a 2 min boss fight

[dim basalt]

yes

Doesnt really matter tho

[obsidian otter]

so if your doing more then the sims is saying in a 2 min fight and your having less uptime where is the missing link?

something is off

[dim basalt]

The concept is called "average"

Stop comparing your single scenarios to sims with 20k+ iterations

[obsidian otter]

sims iterations also has less margin of error so the gap between them is not big at all

vs a players margin of error

[dim basalt]

Both are different kind of errors

[obsidian otter]

your talking a .05% margin of error your sims wont have a 10k+ difference the average is still gonna be close

there is no doubt we are severly undertuned class compared to everyone else we are the bottom feeders for sure

[minor gust]

Some nice things to think about while we wait for tuning notes next week that will potentially shake all this up again

[fossil thistle]

Arms getting 3% ms buff that’s it

A couple classes could use 15-20% nerfs and some classes could use 15-30% buffs

[obsidian otter]

its even worse in pvp even fully pvp geared current honor set we at like 22% verse like everyone else yet other classes doing 90k aim shots.. 90k chaos bolts lol feral..and sub rogue can kill people in a 5 sec stun.. while we hit biggest hit 20k.. with all cds

[fossil thistle]

Yea it’s wild MS crit for 35k then swap to my ret and hammer someone for 110k

[obsidian otter]

oh yeah forgot about the rets..

that can just burst so hard.. and bubble and loh.. and spam heals lol

[fossil thistle]

Yea it feels good I won’t lie

Reminds me of immortal wotlk ret

[obsidian otter]

i was 2v2 last night with ret on my team we faced WW monk i said when he karmas me because warrior fury or arms you get focused i said bop me

[dim basalt]

Both specs feel kinda bad in pvp

[obsidian otter]

it clears his karma

[dim basalt]

Fury doesnt feel that much better

[obsidian otter]

he did not bop me lol.. yet he still 2v1 them

[fossil thistle]

https://tenor.com/view/warrior-blizzard-wow-classic-push-hank-hill-gif-27417019

[obsidian otter]

yeah only good thing about fury pvp is its self heals the daamge is still not there and when you compare Enraged vs die by the swords its a 100% heal from 10% life vs you still get blown up as arms lol

even in defence stance stance master die by the sword most classes can just global you through that

you can press Die by the sword 30% damage reduction Rally cry be in defence stance with stance mastery and lose all your life in 3-5 seconds currently compared to how much damage alot other classes burst can do

yet im out here on my sub rogue lv 84 killing 90s full pvp geared in cheap shot kidney shot lol

pressing 2 buttons.. while arms and fury spaming 4-6 buttons and doing 30% of someones life with all cds

[obsidian otter]

you trully dont know how bad of spot warrior is in until you actually have leveled the warrior gotten best gear currently you can then you level another class same proccess and your like.. I feel like im cheating playing this new class but its so strong lol

[dim basalt]

well Fury is completely fine in pve

[obsidian otter]

oh for sure i love fury in pve its doing great

thane kicking but even slayer is decnet

[minor gust]

Need more BS buffs. I'm tired of Colo boss

[obsidian otter]

considering fury bs does same damage as arms bs we gotta be getting a bs buff hopefully fury doest get it aswell but im sure they will lol

who was it asking about sweeping strikes they said the stacks dont show a duration how long the stacks last for?

[minor gust]

Both specs will always get BS buffs at the same time thanks to Blizz spaghetti code.

Same with nerfs

[obsidian otter]

the stacks dont show duration but its 30s for who ever was asking that

stacks go away after 30s

[obsidian otter]

have you used the lost idol yet?

trinket

[jolly lintel]

Ive been enjoying arms so far but after hopping into M0, I found myself just above the guardian druid on single target bosses lol

Feels pretty underwhelming atm numbers wise

[minor gust]

Haven't messed with a lot of them. After I realized the champ track trinket doesn't work outside of void storm I've just been using the drums and Darkmoon hunt.

[lone spire]

Arms got nerfed into the ground. They will most likely get a buff when season drops

[minor gust]

Just chilling with that rn gotta level my mandatory split alt now

[lone spire]

I swapped to fury for this expac because of the amount of nerfs being given to it

[gaunt owl]

A bullet back of the head to finish it

[lone spire]

Found dead in a ditch

[obsidian otter]

yeah i use drums and lost idol at 230 it gives 550 haste proc

idk what the darkmoon one does?

[jolly lintel]

Im just tired of fury at this point. Been doing the same rotation for too long lol

excited for arms still, hopefully the buffs bring it in line

[unkempt wren]

Arms still exists? I haerd you heal bosses when you MS now

[lone spire]

LMAO

[minor gust]

Sim seems to like it. Just gives highest secondary on proc

[obsidian otter]

how much is the proc?

[jolly lintel]

I am super happy dragon roar is gone, that ability never clicked with me

[obsidian otter]

whats name of trinket ima sim it curious

[lone spire]

wait the champ trinket doesn't work outside of voidsotrm?

not even in dungeons?

[minor gust]

Darkmoon hunt

[minor gust]

Not it doesn't work. Prob works inside the void storm dung but outside that zone it will not proc

Spent a bit of time on dummies and realized it just wasn't proccing

Went to voidstorm killed a few mobs and it's procced pretty quickly

Sooo

[obsidian otter]

its working i just walked into mythic o dungeon

[minor gust]

Is it a voidstorm one?

[obsidian otter]

aparently it can proc off battle shout lol

yeah ima check silvermoon city murder row im at nexus

might be a void storm dungeons it works

[lone spire]

I just went to a dummy in silvermoon and it worked

[obsidian otter]

omg.. i love it when SD i press it in execute phase and it procs 3 times in row.. free executes with the reap..

[lone spire]

it just didnt show the circle under me but I got the buff

so it does work

[minor gust]

???? I spent like 10 min trying to get it to proc yesterday

[gaunt owl]

did you try hard enough

[obsidian otter]

yeah its procing in murder row to

still simming less then drums

[minor gust]

Wonder if it's got some weird interaction with dummies

[obsidian otter]

the proc is 122 crit at 246 on the champ trinket drums is 290 at ilv 233

[minor gust]

Tbf my guess I don't think that trinket Sims at its full value. Because it's tied to the upgrade thing in the zone.

[obsidian otter]

only thing you gain more with the champ trinket is ilv and 2% leech and 10% movement the proc is also 9s long.. vs 12s

[obsidian otter]

yeah im sure it will get better with the upgrades

thats prolly a buggy thing

[minor gust]

Just a world trinket too so doubt it was fully implemented right into sims

Champ track max

I'ma prob put it on again. Wish details showed buff uptime again. Annoying to have to log if I want that info

[obsidian otter]

yeah thats only thing they need to add to blizz dps meters now is the details of skil hits uptime aura

[obsidian otter]

ima check the dark hunt card the idol gives so much on its proc and it last 30s almost 600 secondary

it gives 557 secondary plus 77 speed avoidance and leech on proc

[minor gust]

I don't have this idol so I haven't simmed it

[obsidian otter]

drums and idol proc together takes you from 21% base crit to 40% crit

champ trinket only gives 122 crit vs 557

and that 557 last 30s

[minor gust]

Where did you get the idol from?

[obsidian otter]

world quest like 2 days ago

its only like 1k diff on sims

then darkmoon wouldnt worry to much about it

its like 36k vs 35k

although campaion trinket proc doesnt even show in sims but looking at the proc its only 122 crit and last 9s i dont see it siming higher until upgrades come into play

[rose ibex]

Hello. I was asking earlier about slayer vs colossus

Seems like colossus is struggling in st?

Or is that just a spec thing

[obsidian otter]

we are all behind every class in single target

fury and arms in single fury doing a bit better about 10k difference

[rose ibex]

Mayhap, but it wont stop me from forcing my friends to play with me >:)

You think slayer is the better play for m+?

[obsidian otter]

you still do good aoe on both specs faster the kills the less you will get out of slayer atm vs colossus where you can easily get off CS demolish into cleave spams while Slayer is still bladestorming lol

[rose ibex]

Heehee

Sounds like just play whatever and have fun then :)

Sometimes I like big smash but sometimes I like spin to win

[rose ibex]

I always wondered why they made demolish this wierd 3 hit ability instead of a big climactic super slam

[olive nest]

Probably a feel thing tbh

[rose ibex]

I really want something that you channel and charge up for a ginormous mega hit

[olive nest]

Would you prefer a 3 second windup and one big slam over two small hits and a big slam?

[rose ibex]

3 second windup that rewards you for landing a sweet spot for timing

[obsidian otter]

even a 1.5s shattering throw cast sucks as melee lol

[rose ibex]

Giant earth shattering mega slam that rewards good timing and positioning

Massive aoe size

[olive nest]

Sounds cool but that’s not really WoW gameplay

Hit button thing happens

Go to next button

Well except with Evoker now

[rose ibex]

I dunno. They did things like that for devastation evoker and it works

[olive nest]

They have the timing charge skills

[rose ibex]

Yeah. Its cool. I think thematically it works for arms

Certainly more interesting than bleeds

[olive nest]

I won’t lie I hope they never give arms a timed charge up skill personally but I understand your view

[rose ibex]

Oh I hear you. It's not for everyone, but maybe it's soemthing they can keep to hero specs

Ive been playing feral druid and i kinda wish they kept the bloodtalon talent in a hero spec as well but I can totally understand why they'd axe it with the pruning

[minor gust]

Weird that renown trinket only shows 122 on proc mine was like 202

[olive nest]

Hotfix nerfed it

Probably what you’re seeing

[minor gust]

Ooof

[stoic oyster]

is it just me or anyone else having fun in dungeons?

[obsidian otter]

I enjoy them

[stoic oyster]

colossus feels good so far

not on ST tho

[nova marsh]

I mean does arms in general even have good st

[stoic oyster]

slayer supposed to be more ST but i havent tried it yet

[slow saddle]

Its called demolish

[olive nest]

Well sorta but that is just hit button and wait

[slow saddle]

Hold the button all u like

[olive nest]

That person was talking about wanting an Evoker style charge up ability

[slow saddle]

My point was more as melee, thats a shit show

Fights a lot faster at 2 yards than 20🤣

[minor gust]

Still gonna be shit ST. Midnight arms can be pretty fun. Just right now the tuning is really bad. Blizzard chatgpt didn't do a great job with the last few rounds of notes

[last saddle]

using the same sources that blizzard does to balance we are a mixed-performance spec so might not see much changes on the 17th

[deft osprey]

they fix arms yet?

[olive nest]

See above

[deft osprey]

where above? dont tell me the google gemini answer zzz

[rose ibex]

Arms is fun but numbers bad

Maybe will be fine after tuning?

[flint cedar]

Simming 34.8 with ST Arms build without Cleave. It's been better but its been worse

[minor gust]

First thing you do if you want to see if anything has changed is look in herehttps://discord.com/channels/148872210742771712/1234949058121171069

[deft osprey]

i'm aware lol. was mostly looking to just joke around

momma mia

[minor gust]

Try to be funny next time 🤷‍♂️

[last saddle]

the most we can expect is like a 10-20% aura buff I think

i really want them to rebalance the apex talent so we actually take it 😭

[deft osprey]

lol fuck off frozenbozo

[last saddle]

but I think thats locked in stone

[eternal edge]

That person needs to go to hell tbh

[olive nest]

🤣

[eternal edge]

If they do that I'll stop wow I promise

[eternal edge]

We did in Legion, but problems started with BfA changes

[nova marsh]

I meant rn

[wind hatch]

We can expect another nerf on the 17th 🙏

[worldly rivet]

Blizz really likes bleeds it seems. I wonder how much ST could be boosted if they brought back bloodbath talent.

[minor gust]

https://tenor.com/view/no-i-dont-think-i-will-captain-america-old-capt-gif-17162888

[minor gust]

At the same time they also don't seeing as they keep nerfing them

[shadow ibex]

bleeds are class fantasy

[minor gust]

Fantasy as in they aren't real

[eternal edge]

Bleed are a non sense when you're playing 2 fucking Heavy 2h weapons imo

Same for arms btw

So yeah it's fantasy but not really fantastic