arms

[silver mica]

this might be a silly question but do you often swap stances for a defensive?

I swap on big hitting things but wonderinfg if it should be used more

[smoky kayak]

Cleave is a little bit of an odd duck though, since you cant always sit on it the way you can a longer CD like Warbreaker, because you don’t have another AoE attack to use in its place. If you are in a situation where WB/Ravager aren’t available, just sitting on Cleave and not cleaving for an extended time is a very bad thing

[hollow plover]

every single time i get a mechanic forcing me away from the boss/mobs im fighting or when im targetted and scared i'll die

[hexed snow]

^

[silver mica]

okay so what im doing is okay thanks

[smoky kayak]

Whenever you feel like you need to, tbh, whenever you feel like you’d be in danger otherwise

But yeah, swapping when you’re not able to hit the target anyway is a good habit to get into

[hollow plover]

i think you did a small oopsie, you said press cleave to build a bigger cleave

[gray herald]

I let my healers parse instead

[hollow plover]

but yea ur right in what u said

[smoky kayak]

I mean you are largely pressing cleave; it’s like half your rotation, but I know other abilities contribute as well

[hollow plover]

ye

[smoky kayak]

Thanks FoB 🥹

[hollow plover]

but yea i am overselling collat management for sure

[soft flower]

wait does that mean that cleave adds stacks to colateral?

[smoky kayak]

You’re not wrong that it’s the prime way (alongside bonegrinder) of building big hits

[hollow plover]

cuz if learnt to play around, players improve in other areas as well

[remote talon]

fervor of battle

[soft flower]

yeah I know

[teal fossil]

yep I agree

Collat management is a lot of effort

For very little gain

[smoky kayak]

FoB causes Cleave to slam the main target, which is a ST ability that gets swept by Sweeping Strikes, so yes it stacks collateral

[hollow plover]

fervor of battle casts slam, which gets sweeped, thus counting to collat

but u need to be in melee range

(a lot of warrs arent actually in melee range when pressing cleave)

[soft flower]

So there's nothing to think about when you press sweeping and just cleave, you still collecting stacks, that's even simpler than what I thought

[remote talon]

yep

[hollow plover]

the act of stacking collat is completely passive

sorry if i confused you

earlier

it's more that you shouldnt waste collat if you can avoid it

and if you have the stars align, then you can stack cds for a big cleave

[soft flower]

yeah the big one after the stacks

[smoky kayak]

To give a raid example, I don’t use it often on many raid fights, cause I don’t feel in danger all that often (depending on who is healing that night anyway, lol)

But on the Rik Reverb intermission or M Gally, there are some periods of big damage where you’re running around not attacking anyway, which are great times for it

And I’ll also use it for soaks that I feel like might be more dangerous than usual for one reason or another

[hollow plover]

Amen to that

[smoky kayak]

That said, if you ever do feel in danger, the ability to rotate or layer DbtS, DS, and SR makes smart Wars really survivable

[sacred zodiac]

goon breaks are a good one

[soft flower]

@smoky kayak icy veins guide still needs an update tho, no?

[sacred zodiac]

should probably spend all of gally in dstance xd xd

[icy mulch]

Well, it's extremely crit dependant. I can have collateral for 30m or 95m all depends if they all crit or not.

[teal fossil]

That’s not something you can control

[icy mulch]

Correct

[teal fossil]

We speak on averages

And on average optimizing collat is a headache that’s not worth it

[icy mulch]

I've got a weakaura to make it a little smoother.

Tracks SS, when it's good to pop ravager and how many stacks you've built up.

[smoky kayak]

Can say the same thing about demolish, but yeah not really something you have much control over

Would be nice though

[teal fossil]

I use to be a proponent of chaos bolt crits

But ehh

[shadow ibex]

Only optimization I can be bothered to do is slightly delay an avatar cast inside WB if demo isn't max stacks so I can send the max with reck

[teal fossil]

It just makes things too low variance

[icy mulch]

Titans torment gives us a little more control, but meh. Still nothing like DK or Shaman have access to.

[teal fossil]

And if fights go long variances average out

[hexed snow]

Someone failed the grip on me on Mugzee so I just stood defensive stanced that entire pull 😂

[smoky kayak]

Again, more than anything, the main efficacy of Cleave/Collateral is knowing how to time cooldowns - when to sit on them and when to spend them

[hexed snow]

#NotAVoidElf

[smoky kayak]

But it is important to do when you can, I agree

And I’ll see about working something into the guide to better point that out

[icy mulch]

They could also improve the area cleave and demolish hit. I've had times where things just slight left or right of my target are not hit by cleave.

Demo seems a little more forgiving. Though the distance should be improved so the tank doesn't screw it as often.

[shadow ibex]

Or just let me move

[hollow plover]

demo also doesnt hit a target behind you even if its mad close to ur primary target

cleave and demo are both bullshit hitboxes

Sadge

[soft flower]

I meant the overpower thing priority

[icy mulch]

Yeah, but if it's behind you I can see that more than both being in front and not being it. Lol

[smoky kayak]

Yeah Demo is a claymore, not a true AoE (I’m fairly certain that is in the guide btw)

Tbh I kinda like the “frontal cone” nature of Arms abilities; it’s unique… but it also has failure points for certain

[hollow plover]

wowhead still lists thunderclap above mortal strike (with rend already applied) while icy veins lists overpower above mortal strike and execute regardless of sweeping strikes

so people end up asking why that is

[hollow plover]

yuh

but i wish it was true aoe

[smoky kayak]

It’s more that WH lists an extra and largely redundant fallback MS which you almost never get to in practice anyway

Funny enough, the Blizz rota does the same thing, listing an extra unusable MS/BT at the end lol

[patent stream]

would be great if wowhead/icy veins start to pay guidewriters only for up to date guides, tons of guides are just updated for the first 2 weeks of a season (sometimes even expansion)

[hollow plover]

btw is it true that blizz rota casts ravager but not bladestorm?

[smoky kayak]

No, it uses BS

[hollow plover]

i think the wh post said it wont cast bladestorm

small oopsies happen

[smoky kayak]

I have all the lists already, they’re very similar to what I mocked up the other day after the announcement

[hollow plover]

no biggie ig

[hollow plover]

thanks for your work sir

[smoky kayak]

Blueposts are written by CM, often have small errors

[hollow plover]

yea thats fair

[silver mica]

ty

[soft flower]

What do you mean here exactly?

[eager nexus]

Bruh I'm getting clowned on by friends for still playing WoW now with the news of the single button rotation thing 😒

[teal fossil]

How similar are they to our Apls

[smoky kayak]

I mean… if you cut out all the conditions, not too far
But then if you cut out all the conditions, wars are a pretty simple class

[patent stream]

what do you mean? hes wrong making jokes about wow turning into a mobile game? 😄

[teal fossil]

The blizzard hekili

Oh nice

[hollow plover]

I think it'd be pretty cool if the single button thing worked based off of the ever changing APL, that could enable more interconnectivity between the spec theorycrafters and blizz

[soft flower]

yeah but shouldnt the lists be the same? like with overpower being above mortal strike, is that a problem with the site's backend?

[patent stream]

how about players who want to do more than worldquests press buttons themself? xD

[hollow plover]

im not entering this debate about people who dont care enough to even think about that

[smoky kayak]

This is an interesting (and multifaceted) situation tbh

Which I can’t really express fully over my phone atm, but there are good reasons for and against

[eager nexus]

Can I stay arms for mythic stix or am I throwing if I'm not fury

[smoky kayak]

As long as your group isn’t failing damage checks, which is exceedingly unlikely at this point in the tier, you can play w/e you want - most bosses are about doing the mechanics properly

[hollow plover]

if your group is chilling on add damage and you can focus on boss dam, then i think arms is fine. You just wont be very high up on the dps meter ngl

your jugg will fall off a bunch also, if you intend on playing juggernaut

[patent stream]

think about what? wow has 4 raid and 50 different difficulties for dungeons? why would you want to do more than the easiest entry level by not pressing the rotation yourself?

[hollow plover]

there are people who play wow for things that arent dungeons and raids

there are people who play wow to explore, to collect, to RP, to hang out with friends, to connect with people

not necessarily to fight

[patent stream]

that content doesnt require more than pressing one button already

[smoky kayak]

relax dude, I already changed it, you're really stuck on this. Previous rotations were different and sometimes shit gets missed

[hollow plover]

a casual player whos farming the current darkfuse rep to get the sick black coat won't have a great time if they're only pressing one button while potentially being undergeared (as is usually the case with casual players)

there's a lot of "easy" content where this button helps

fighting is a nuisance to many

this eases that nuisance

[smoky kayak]

So back on my computer now - as I said there are reasons for and against this

• on the one hand, it would be nice if there were more interconnectivity between spec TCs and Blizzard; it should be a symbiotic relationship, and you could argue that it better informs balance and performance metrics when everyone is on the same page
• on the other hand, that's way harder to juggle in practice than in theory - spec APL is constantly changing as we discover new things, try different ideas, or just refine our approach (not entirely unlike class changes lol) and to do that in a way that would be adequate for the vast majority of the playerbase (i.e. not changing shit mid patch), would require a lot more effort on both our end and Blizz, since writing good APL takes a lot of man-hours, and access to changes before they happen

but there's also another factor to consider, and that's whether the helper rotation needs to be as effective as a community managed one - hardcore players, by their very nature, tend to min/max the fun out of everything (largely a result of being so invested that they spend way more hours than the average player), and so they tend to come up with hyper optimizations that... don't always matter all that much in reality, but add a lot of complication for the sake of chasing tiny gains

[hollow plover]

the downsides are very real yea

[patent stream]

if its restricted to easy content, its fine, just (imo) shouldnt be a thing in any content that has multiple difficulties above the entry level

[smoky kayak]

for example, do we really need to suggest that players spam RB after Bladestorm or Bloodthirst at exactly 85% crit instead of 80%? probably not, but we know we can gain 0.1% by doing so and it's not very difficult for us to execute given that we tend to have tightly polished UIs and a high degree of familiarity with the game's systems/rotations

[hollow plover]

why?

[soft flower]

Sorry didn't mean to annoy you, just didn't get a response and I thought you might have missed it - much appreciation for what you do

[patent stream]

bcause thats the exact reason we have 4 raid difficulties and endless dungeon difficulties

[olive nest]

Don’t worry he’s always annoyed he has to deal with us

[boreal quartz]

You will hit a wall parse and thus wr wise eventually with it

So the Button is good

[smoky kayak]

I was standing in the shower typing on my phone while trying to sweat out this sickness lmao

[soft flower]

editing icy veins guide while showering is some dedication to the craft

[hollow plover]

ah yes limiting for the sake of limiting with no actual benefit to limiting the feature

[smoky kayak]

well no I started editing after lol, unfort it's not a seamless process, so that site doesn't get instant updates

[soft flower]

yeah there's cache thing I know, dw about it

[patent stream]

ok, with current numbers (sim dps minus about 10-20%) even first few mythic bosses will be free mid season after all the nerfs/player power and all that stuff... why do we even have lfr/nhc/hc raids then? where are the good old days when humans actually wanted to invest energy/effort to achieve something and not get it for free

[hollow plover]

gcd's will have a .3 second delay on every single button press, why are you taking 10 to 20%

also rotation isnt holding back players from getting into higher raids

most of the time

[patent stream]

seen someone testing it on mm hunter and it does sim dps minus 16%... just an assumption but im sure the majority of players in hc raids/first few mythic bosses is not getting to that number themself

[olive nest]

The 1 button rotation is not even remotely comparable

Go try it on ptr

[smoky kayak]

So I only read about half this conversation, but I'm gonna jump in real quick and add that I think a lot of this "fear" of people taking the 1-button rota into higher level content is hypothetical

aside from the fact that the malleus is really bad, it is absolutely still playable and you could probably even be successful with it, but there are two real scenarios to using it

• you perform better than other people, in which case that says more about them than you. If the group is still successful regardless, there's not really much to complain about, and if not... well there are obviously bigger issues than your 1-button performance

• you perform worse than other people, in which case the problem takes care of itself in the same way that it does when anyone grossly underperforms - they tend to get removed from the group or the group itself ends in failure, which means no score/gear/achievement/etc, ultimately hurting their chances of getting into future content

[soft flower]

are you talking about the 1 button one or just the hekili thing?

[olive nest]

It’s fantastic for people who play this game for the story mode end game

[smoky kayak]

the reality is that most players don't really give a shit about how you arrive at the damage you deal, they only care about overall success or failure

[hollow plover]

I highly doubt that actually happened

[smoky kayak]

I actually have some numbers for Warriors, was gonna make a post in the #updates-midnight channel today with it

[olive nest]

Like I said chargeX, if you simply go try it on ptr you will clearly recognize that it will not be competitive damage at all

So don’t worry about it it’s not for you

[hollow plover]

Also sim dps isnt how fights are played

raidfights and dungeon fights arent sims for a reason

[patent stream]

why? low haste spec with not many useful fillers between the 2 buttons you actually press most of the time

[hollow plover]

because you'd have to make sure you manually turn off all the different buffs in the sim, which I'd imagine wasn't the case

listen man

the button is not competitive

it's just not

not even on HC level

[smoky kayak]

but for Wars, using the 1-button results in a ~25% performance drop (and that's in static single target - realistically, the game doesn't do everything for you, still requiring you to move, target swap, use oGCD cooldowns effectively, and the like, so the actual performative drop is very likely to be even higher)

It also has obvious failure points in that it's not smart enough to sit on abilities like Ravager or Bladestorm when you'd prefer to save them for adds or burst windows, so it has a very high likelihood of desyncing your damage windows, again resulting in even lower performance than a half-way intelligent player would

[soft flower]

What if you dont get the 1 button one and just use the recommended one that blizzard suggest (without the gcd handicap)

[patent stream]

25% dps loss is still enough to do most content mid season with lots of free upgrades from ilvl/borrowed power stuff

[smoky kayak]

again, that's -25% best case, but I'll give you a different answer

• is that really a problem?

do you care how a player performs as long as they perform well enough that you still succeed in the end?

or more specifically, do you care how a player gets there?

[quasi torrent]

It just gives people an easier time reacting to other shit thats happening
we aren't fighting target dummies

[hollow plover]

that will be identical to hekili, which we already know not to be accurate enough to parse very high (but it's very good to e.g. complete AOTC)

[smoky kayak]

not identical, but it's not as bad as you'd think (though this varies from class to class atm, some rotations are built better than others)

[quasi torrent]

im just worried itll either

• bore people
• make it a crutch for people, so theyre stuck on using it

But still a good thing they're adding

[smoky kayak]

Yeah, and those are both valid, if more individual concerns

[soft flower]

which will be great for the vast majority of players I assume

[hollow plover]

about as much as hekili helped them ig

[quasi torrent]

if (when) i play the game again itll make my weekly slavery keys less painful
= good addition

[halcyon breach]

You will already resub tomorrow and start pushing keys again

[gloomy forum]

If we are in our Execute rotation and are and we get a MS Reset do we immediatly send or we do get back to X2 stacks of EP?

[smoky kayak]

As Slayer, you p much always wait for 2EP
As Colossus, you tend to send with 1EP, providing there's enough rage (realistically, this is very flexible since Col often starves a bit during Execute)

[hollow plover]

lemme grab the prio list screenshot

[soft flower]

https://tenor.com/view/kitty-kitten-eepy-eepy-cat-cute-kitten-gif-2354054411599231174

me when I read EP

[patent stream]

yes i do since i already know how it will end... xD i mean doing "easy" content like farming +10s or heroic raids for rare items on alts, you can already see how tons of players paying zero attention to the game and fail even the easiest mechanics... do you really think when these players starting to use the rotation helper and dont have to look at the screen at all anymore will improve their attention to mechanics? i think it will be the exact opposite and will make that sort of content even more a pain in the arse

[quasi torrent]

i have a sub still buddy

just no game installed

[smoky kayak]

since i already know how it will end
you're changing the parameters of the question

[halcyon breach]

I perfectly timed my sub to run out the day after CE

no wasted time

[smoky kayak]

I specifically asked "do you care how a player performs as long as they perform well enough that you still succeed in the end?"

[quasi torrent]

I think i had 3 weeks :3

[hollow plover]

these people in question will fail mechanics with or without the 1button

[smoky kayak]

^

[soft flower]

what? yeah of course, off loading a rotation from the brain will make people perform better with mechanics, what are you on about

[patent stream]

thats a stupid question... the question is, will you succeed more often? i dont think so

[soft flower]

of course you do suceed more often

[smoky kayak]

lol I mean if you're not going to answer a simple question, it doesn't really sound like you want to have a conversation on the subject

[patent stream]

because the question makes no sense xD

[smoky kayak]

whether you succeed more often or not depends on whether the 1 button results in those players playing better than they would without it... which is quite possible for some people, but will really depend on the player in question

[gloomy forum]

Yes looked at this hence my question

[soft flower]

if you would have a success chance of X% and now the rotation helper is helping people perform better you now have a X+Y% chance

[smoky kayak]

it makes perfect sense lol, you're just stuck on bemoaning a hypothetical that doesn't exist

[nova marsh]

You cannot help players who do not want to help themselves

[hollow plover]

ye the only time mortal strike shows up in execute phase is with 2x EP, going further down the list is execute anyway, so if you were to only follow that list, you'd never end up at a single "natty" MS, hence archi telling you to pretty much only execute with 2EP as slayer

[smoky kayak]

lets say finish a Heroic raid, and at the end, you're like "hmm that mage was a little low" but you still finished successfully anyway, do you really care if they were a little low because they were using a 1 button or because they were just new/absentminded/bad?

[patent stream]

how does it make sense? bcause of the rotation helper people will pay even less attention to what happens on their screen than they do now and more worse players will get into higher content... how does that increase the success rate?

[nova marsh]

If they don't wonna pay attention to mechs, nothing blizzard nor the playerbase nor addons or anything else will help them

[smoky kayak]

do you regularly audit group members before a new dungeon or raid to make sure they're all using the "correct" talents/rotations/whatever?

[soft flower]

this logic doesnt make any sense

[nova marsh]

That feels like a bad faith argument

[smoky kayak]

or do you only care after failure?

[smoky kayak]

his whole argument is in bad faith

and making assumptions

[gloomy forum]

So the answer to my question would be to yes again go back to X2 EP?

[nova marsh]

Because you can also argue that it saved them.brain space to mash one button

[hollow plover]

ye exactly

[nova marsh]

Ur shit makes no sense

[gloomy forum]

TY

[eternal leaf]

would you fine gentlemen have a line for raidbots to only make me sim execute phase dmg? ❤️

[patent stream]

its the exact same just the opposite opinion on the success rate with/without the helper...

[hollow plover]

in execute phase you generally want to focus on executing 2x before using mortal strike again, with opportunist procs having even higher click priority than pressing execute in the first place

[smoky kayak]

exactly, while you can claim its likely that a 1-button rotation will cause people to brain off and watch netflix, it's also just as likely that a 1-button rotation helps someone else focus on moving for mechanics instead of staring at their action bar

that's all down to the individual player and trying to say "well people will be more likely to..." is a broad assumption without evidence - it's just being pessimistic for the sake of it

[soft flower]

brother, people that will use a rotation helper whether it's hekili or the blizzard one or even the 1 button one, will still perform better than someone that has no idea how to play the game and just started, that will INCREASE the % of players able to complete content, no decrease it.

[smoky kayak]

and I understand pessimists always err on the negative side of everything, but that doesn't make them right lol

[shadow ibex]

People using a rotation helper won't fail upwards anymore than they are now

[nova marsh]

Yes but you just point at people who can't be helped

That's not what this is for

[patent stream]

hey, im coming from a time when humans actually tried to invest time/energy to achieve something... i know thats outdated in current times, no worries, im not offended when someone has a different opinion than me 😄

[smoky kayak]

lmao ok kid

[shadow ibex]

The game hands out heroic ilvl gear. Pressing 1 button won't change that

[soft flower]

:ICANT:

[shadow ibex]

People will fail upwards with 1 button blizzard backed rotation just like they are now

[smoky kayak]

idk I asked you a very simple and straight forward question and you've absolutely refused to even accept the idea that a group could be successful while someone is using a 1-button rotation

so no, I don't think you "come from a time when..." that sounds like reddit /iamverysmart slop

if you can't even accept a hypothetical premise for the sake of having a constructive conversation... yeah I'm out

[patent stream]

since the question is just a stupid assumption (exactly like my counter questions)

[smoky kayak]

don't look now, but you're making my point

really, I highly advise you to just quit while you're behind - you're not winning any arguments or changing any minds here

[soft flower]

@patent stream buddy I think it's time to take a break, just take the L and chill

[patent stream]

im not trying to change anyones mind... im just not trying to sell assumptions as facts

[smoky kayak]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

you're the one making the assumptions... lmao

[soft flower]

chat is this guy baiting

[patent stream]

im sharing my own opinion, thats all

[gray herald]

are people saying the rotation one-button is a bad thing??

im not reading up

that's wild

[smoky kayak]

more that it's impossible that any group could ever be successful while someone in it is using a 1-button rotation
which is just mindblowingly naive

[simple wren]

any good video on how to master arms? i still seem to be unable to get any decent dps out of it 😦

[gray herald]

yeah that is also wild

[lost lily]

Little late to the convo but id prefer someone using a rotation helper that actually does mechanics vs someone that crushes dps meters but doesnt help with any

[smoky kayak]

it's really funny that on virtually every platform, whether it's discord, twitter, reddit, or the official forums... I've yet to see any high level players with serious concerns over the 1-button rotation

It's all coming from the low-end fearmongering that 1-buttons gonna steal their jerbs or cause them to not be able to be successful in any activity; literally the people who it benefits most

[dire hinge]

Fuck it I’ll use the one button rotation

😎

[smoky kayak]

as soon as they announced it, I told Critcake that he needs to make a "one-button rotation KSH" video series lol

[soft flower]

new video idea "how I got cutting edge using the 1 button rotation 😱 "

[smoky kayak]

that would be a much longer investment lmao

but if you're talking about RWL, yeah it could probably happen

[soft flower]

100% someone from echo or limit will use it for the memes

[lost lily]

My main concern with the rotation helper is it being smart enough to actually be useful. And how much it actually does. Is it a rotation but no cooldowns? Does it still pop cooldowns? Does it dynamically switch to cleave/aoe. What about split cleave for classes like locks?

It could be super basic and useless. Or it could be a perfect rotation that is actually a dps increase for like 50% of players

[smoky kayak]

that's the main thing holding it back tbh, though every class is setup a little different atm

[lost lily]

And for some classes it might be super smart and potentially a dps boost. Or some classes the logic in it is so bad that it is pointless to use

Like imagine playing arcane mage with a slightly longer gcd but it perfectly does all those weird conditions

Could be a boost lol

[dire hinge]

Yeah I don’t see fire mage doing well with a combust window lmao

[smoky kayak]

So for Warriors, it casts pretty much every on-GCD rotational ability from Mortal Strike to Bladestorm
but it doesn't cast any off-GCD abilities, including offensive CDs, defensive CDs, or mobility
it also doesn't cast utility abilities like Battle Shout, BzR, Piercing Howl, Shockwave, Storm Bolt, etc

so there is still something left for the player to focus on

[halcyon breach]

Pretty sure it's universal that it doesn't use buff CDs

[smoky kayak]

I thought so too, but turns out some are - Frost DK, for example, casts most of its oGCD offensive CDs

[lost lily]

I dont hate that. But it still needs logic. Like does it execute early for fury or only when enough procs build up to be worth it

[smoky kayak]

the logic is largely default actions (prio Rampage over RB over BT, without conditions)

there are a few conditions, like using Cleave @ 3 targets, or Fury using WW to refresh the AoE buff in multitarget

[lost lily]

And how does latency effect it? Like if you are in AUS playing in US could you potentially be faster just spamming 1 button vs reaction with 300ms?

[smoky kayak]

but that's for Warrior - Unholy has much more stringent conditions (because it's a much more complicated spec)

[smoky kayak]

that I can't really speak to atm, cause it's not something I can test

in my own testing, it's been pretty seamless

[lost lily]

Fair. Overall I think its a great tool for a lot of heroic and lower raiders. And probably m+ up to 10ish?

[smoky kayak]

from what I can tell, it's just incurring a longer GCD, it's not the normal GCD and then a secondary lockout penalty or anything

[hollow plover]

the opportunist delay wasnt fixed yet right?

[smoky kayak]

what's semi interesting too is that you can weave regularly pressed buttons with the 1-button if you really wanted to, though I'm not sure that there's any practical reason to do so

[lost lily]

But not for everyone. Depends on how much of a dps differnce you end up with per spec. Ive had some people struggle to pull 1m in heroic bosses. And the simple rotation might be able to do that lol

Bind 1 button to mouse down. And when your wife starts yelling at you just spam that while you talk=)

[smoky kayak]

this varies wildly atm for a few reasons

• some specs (unholy) are way more conditional than others (arms/fury)
• some rotations have more misoptimizations than others (Feral is apparently pretty bad at managing its bleeds)
• the GCD penalty affects high haste specs (arms/fury) a lot more than low ones or hard casters

all of which I expect to see some refinement over time, this is of course our very first look at the system

[lost lily]

Thanks for all the testing and info. I guess my only other concerns is if the logic eventually gets too good and it becomes optimal for most people to just use it instead of learning all the nuances of a spec. Double edged sword. But honestly I dont think itll get that far too quickly

Or something like I can roll a FOTM class and 1 button it and preform better than my main spec because of balance. Even if I play my main spec in the 90%+

[hollow plover]

this will never happen

by design

[teal fossil]

There are hof raiders that use hekili

It’s very good for what it is

[hollow plover]

yea but they use hekili while also thinking at the same time

which isnt what i implied

[lost lily]

I dont hate Hekili. I like it for reminders and whatnot. But I dont think it shoudl be blindy followed

[hollow plover]

but ig i could have given more context

my bad

[teal fossil]

When hekili mind controls me like Emma frost does

Nothing I could’ve done

[smoky kayak]

The GCD penalty stops the 1-button from ever doing that

but as far as the helper goes... it's an interesting hypothetical, but I think if that happens we've failed at our job of trying to min/max. I will say that you are correct in thinking that a strong spec using the helper (not 1-button) can theoretically outperform a weak spec played "optimally"

but ofc that's assuming that the person using it still plays well, since there are things that they still need to think about for themselves - like time those major CDs correctly, target swap, delay cooldowns to line up with damage phases, etc

[lost lily]

All fair. Im curious to see how it goes. And excited to see all the memes in pug raids telling the underperformers to just please use 1 button cause they clearly dont know how to play their spec.

[teal fossil]

That’ll be funny

[strange perch]

Can we all agree that idea of “rotations” outlived itself?

[smoky kayak]

I don't even know what that means

if you wanna get technical, very few (or no?) specs have "rotations" anymore, they have priority lists

[hollow plover]

is there a single spec with a true rotation?

nowadays?

[teal fossil]

Aug?

[teal fossil]

No I don’t think so, most specs have enough rng and procs so nothing has a true rotation

[smoky kayak]

I mean small scale there are a few, like Fury always opens with Reck before Avatar and Charge, which is technically a rotation - that's a rotation because it operates in a set order

[teal fossil]

Well yeah most openers are set in stone

[smoky kayak]

but we're really splitting hairs at this point

[teal fossil]

But over the course of a 5 min fight it becomes priority

[smoky kayak]

all rotations are priority lists, not all priority lists are rotations

[hollow plover]

wouldnt that just be called a sequence? Isn't rotation inherently repeating in nature? although tbf it really doesn't matter it's just random semantics

[lost lily]

I dont think there is a spec without a single proc to react too. Even AUG still has priority procs of essence bursts.

[teal fossil]

Well you are repeating it

[smoky kayak]

yeah I mean you could say that, but we're really getting into semantics here LOL

[teal fossil]

At the start of every pull

[smoky kayak]

but yeah idk wtf this means, can you elaborate?

[hollow plover]

clueless~1

[smoky kayak]

in my raid, some pulls don't go any longer than that

[lost lily]

Thanks again for the testing.
Did my first +10s as arms yesterday. I dont hate it. Been fury for years. I feel like my boss ST is trash though. The big cleaves/demolish on packs is juicy though.

[smoky kayak]

Colossus ST is big trash, but the spec is fun in M+ overall

[lost lily]

My overall was about the same as fury. At least in 10s. Is that pretty normal? Is it higher keys when arms pulls ahead? Or is it all based on how large of pulls you do cause target caps

[thick kelp]

skill issue

[lost lily]

Well i am a much better fury than arms warrior so thats fair lol

[smoky kayak]

I mean you said it was your first dungeon as Arms, so I wouldn't expect perfection

Honestly you see this a lot among less experienced players, there's so much fear of failure that they just... never even bother to try

[hollow plover]

i am of the opinion that most fury-only players who claim that the colo arms m+ spec is unfun simply haven't given it a proper try and i have yet to see an exception after interacting with a lot of fury-only players

[smoky kayak]

not calling out @lost lily here - quite the opposite, the fact that you tried something unfamiliar and new (to you) is a good thing

[lost lily]

Eh it isnt that. I just enjoy fury and historically didnt enjoy arms. But thats a dumb mentality when trying to actually push. And the last time I gave arms a real go was MoP

[smoky kayak]

nothing wrong with having a preference

[lost lily]

Ill give it some time then watch some videos. Still going to raid as fury though.

But if im pushing keys I cant let the pally beat me.

[strange perch]

This is a very good formulation.
I like WoW but combat can really feel outdated.

Evokers with “press and hold/release for different effect” is refreshing to see. Perhaps blizzard can push engine and class designs a bit further in a future.

[hollow plover]

unfortunately, good rets beat us anyway

although i havent been beaten by a single ret in weeks now

😈

[lost lily]

I beat him on interrupts every key at least. So theres that

[teal fossil]

Wow combat is still one of the best in mmos

[strange perch]

Also True.

[teal fossil]

Unless you get into the actiony ones

Like blade and soul

Thrones and liberty, ff 14 all mid

[smoky kayak]

ok, this makes more sense and I think I get what you mean

that said, I think designers have an interesting time balancing "innovation" with "nostalgia" - WoW is an old game at this point and so it doesn't bring in a lot of new players so much as re-engaging old ones

[spiral coral]

I don’t know if it’s efficient but it feels better. I always pop my tempered pot on boss, and try to line it up near execute. Makes it feel less like shit.

[smoky kayak]

meaning you wanna create new and interesting stuff, but not to the point that it feels too strange or unfamiliar to players who have come to expect something else

[hollow plover]

Me personally i agree 100% but ive tried to show wow to sooooo many people and most are so bored of wow combat. They much prefer dynamically changing combat, more stuff to aim, being able to differentiate between a left-hit and a right-hit, etc.

[strange perch]

The whole debate about hekili, 1 button mode, in-game “rotation” assistant really makes you think - how can we avoid this debate and solutions all together?

It feels like developers are trying to address symptoms and not the core issue.

[spiral coral]

https://tenor.com/view/osrs-fight-caves-jad-ketzek-fire-cape-gif-16178317

[smoky kayak]

Well, short of turning everything into skill shots (and probably paring the toolkits down to a few core "moba-style" buttons instead of larger MMO-style spellbooks), I don't think you really can avoid all that

[teal fossil]

Sorry I mean rotations are most interesting

But yeah there’s usually not a lot of stuff going on outside of that

[smoky kayak]

and at that point, you're basically talking about an entirely new game

[teal fossil]

A part of the reason why league is popular is because they can mix both

[strange perch]

I agree that balancing between nostalgia and innovation is challenging especially with a legacy of WoW.
We cant imagine arms w/p mortal strike or fury w/o titan grip, etc.

[smoky kayak]

WoW's engagement isn't meant to come solely from rotations though, it's supposed to be the application of rotations while executing encounter mechanics

[soft flower]

Combat should be simpler so players won't "need" rotation helper, no one needs a rotation helper in League of Legends because you have 4 buttons and you need to aim and position yourself to deal good damage

(disclaimer: I don't like league of legends)

[teal fossil]

Well in league you are reacting to another player

You don’t really react to a boss the same way

[smoky kayak]

I mean I can easily imagine Arms without MS or Fury without TG

but I can't really imagine Warriors in WoW with only 3 skillshot-based abilities making up the whole of their offensive toolkit

[hollow plover]

rotation helpers are inherently optimized for PvE, not PvP

[smoky kayak]

it might be fun... but that's simply not WoW

[soft flower]

you could react to a boss summoning adds or mechanics under your feet the same way

[teal fossil]

League does melees very well

[smoky kayak]

I'm sure it does, but League is a terrible game played by terrible people and should never be brought up ever again

[olive nest]

Lmao

[hollow plover]

It's a great game ruined by terrible people I think is a more accurate description

[teal fossil]

Real

[smoky kayak]

Again, there are absolutely ways to create that kind of gameplay, but that kind of gameplay is not WoW's gameplay - at that point you're talking about a different game

[strange perch]

There is an in-dev mmo-moba corepunk (not sponsored reference) i guess time will tell how well it will fare.

[teal fossil]

Real

[soft flower]

maybe not as simple as 3-4 buttons, but maybe 10 buttons like what's GW2 is doing

[smoky kayak]

if we're talking offensive rotations, Arms/Fury are already around 10 buttons as is

though that expands when we add in all the supplementary stuff like defensives/mobility/etc

[soft flower]

im talking about the whole kit, GW2 is able to do it, with some classes having more button due to forms or whatever they have there

1-4 core rotation loop 5 is like your big cd, 6 is like a defensive and the rest is utility depending on the class

[strange perch]

I understand what you mean but GW2 combat has issues of its own.

For arms i do not understand why sweeping strikes is an active skill and not a passive ability at this point.

[smoky kayak]

but still the point stands - whether it's 3, 5, or 8 total buttons, we're still talking about a departure from MMO to a more action-RPG genre, particularly if we're making those buttons more "action oriented" in the sense of a lot of skill shots/positionals/etc

interestingly, WoW did a "great pruning" in WoD, which resulted in cutting down a lot of excess abilities, and players largely panned it - there have been some benefits (like no longer juggling spell ranks) but for the most part MMO players like having more expanded and expressive toolkits

[soft flower]

I dont believe retail is an MMO anymore, I feel like it's more of a action RPG type game similar to PoE, diablo and whatever else

[smoky kayak]

I think the only way that kind of thing would fly is if you tried to make a PoE2 style WoW2, but I don't think trying to change the existing game that way would ever work out

I mean... it's absolutely an MMO, but I'll grant there's a lot of overlap between genres now

[soft flower]

classic feels like an MMORPG traditionally way more than retail is now

which I don't mind, I play them both and enjoy both

[smoky kayak]

and yet, funny enough, the modern game is a lot more massive than Classic is 😛

[soft flower]

yeah which means an action rpg is more popular than an MMO

makes sense to me

it's more modern, fast paced

[smoky kayak]

the hallmark of an MMO, more so than anything, is the way players interact with each other and the gameworld, which is most apparent in comparing WoW and a typical arpg like PoE/Diablo

Sure but pacing isn't a measurement or criteria of an MMO

Diablo 4 is something of a pseudo-MMO, in that players do engage in a shared world; like I said, there's a lot of overlap in genres now, to the point where standard definitions aren't all that standard anymore

[soft flower]

if you want to get technical, I totally think retail wow IS an MMO, however it's less of an MMO than classic and more of an action RPG like diablo, hell - the whole mythic plus system is just greater rifts from D3

[smoky kayak]

but Diablo also misses out on a ton of other core MMO features

I mean, yes the uncapped scaling system of M+ is similar to rifts, but neither of those are inherently mmo or arpg systems

[soft flower]

just the vibe of it, you know

[smoky kayak]

idk, I think they feel very different between the two games

[peak basin]

Unholy DK is a POE class

[soft flower]

introducing wow to a new player, they will imagine maybe something like classic in their head, while end game players play a completely different game similar to what you do in PoE for example

[smoky kayak]

regardless, it feels like you're focusing on the slower pacing and methodical nature of classic vs retail, which I agree with - but that's not an inherent definition of MMOs

on the other hand, classic pacing is so slow that it's downright boring at times so I'm not sure it's necessary a gold standard either LOL

[flat willow]

poe 1 or poe 2

[smoky kayak]

I think Wrath-era was probably the best middle ground - faster interactions, but still felt like you had to think about how to traverse the game world instead of just instant portal to everything

[flat willow]

ahhhh, travelling northrend to do the argent crusade dailies

(I actually kind of enjoyed them)

[smoky kayak]

but you will never ever convince me that picking up 20 pumpkins each with 5s interaction cast bars is engaging

[soft flower]

I think that's kinda strawmaning it, since obviously that's not the charm in classic, it's a totally different game at this point

[flat willow]

I liked classic in 2019

fresh lost a lot of the appeal

[soft flower]

no one in their right mind thinks this is engaging, but for the vast majority of gamers that never played wow I feel like classic is more accessible to them than retail (and I play retail for 17 years)

[flat willow]

mostly not super fun to farm 5 hours a week for a raid that lasts 30 minutes

[smoky kayak]

It’s an example of why I believe that Wrath era was a good middle ground

[flat willow]

the fun/farm ratio is all screwed up

[smoky kayak]

Yeah classic raiding is sadly….not very fun lol

[peak basin]

poe 1 is the explosion game

[kind thunder]

Tera had that

[smoky kayak]

Not because it’s so easy compared to retail, but because it’s overloaded with gimmicks

[smoky kayak]

Sod was pretty fun, at least in later phases - they’ve made some really good improvements and I’m looking forward to where they go next ala Classic 2.0

[lost lily]

I think im on the end where buttons are getting to be too many again. Like even fury vs arms. My main hesitation right now is arms has more buttons. And it isnt even a crazy amount its just more. I like having the 4-5 in a rotation and just using them correctly.

[smoky kayak]

Fwiw Arms only has one more standard button in Demolish and that’s exclusive to Colossus

[kind thunder]

every class has a lot of buttons but the rotation always ends up being like 4 in repetition

[smoky kayak]

But I agree with the general statement; over complication of class design (not so much wars, lol, but in general) has been a big talking point within Blizz recently

[soft flower]

the amount of keybinds on my resto shaman 😵‍💫

[kind thunder]

DH has like the least amount of buttons to bind

[smoky kayak]

Not always even about the amount of binds vs how you use them; like chain heal is a big issue with resto sham

[left plume]

Have they announced anything about this “classic 2.0” ? maybe I haven’t been keeping up on the news

[smoky kayak]

Largely this

[lost lily]

Yeah but there are more short cooldowns buttons I have to care about. MS/OP/Cleave/execute is fine. But its also rend/tclap, colo>demolish, slam sometimes. It isnt hard but it is more to keep track of.

My wife plays an enhancement shaman and I just tell her to click the shiny ones and if no shiny then the ones without a cast time. That class has a ton of stuff that does nothing.

[smoky kayak]

Not specifically, aside from the general understanding that SoD is a test ground for it

[smoky kayak]

Enh is really bad about it - though its issue is less with having too many buttons and more about the way it’s spec tree results in 3-4 distinct and entirely different rotations… it’s a lot to keep up with

I’ve always tried to keep Warriors relatively straightforward yet engaging

[lost lily]

Yeah she doesnt do any content hard enough for it to matter. But I feel like I have to spend 30 minutes just reading about it to understand enough to give her a basic good enough version lol

[smoky kayak]

Oh yeah, trust me I’ve seen the Enh rotations pages

Or like SPriest having 13 step openers…

[hollow plover]

true and real

[soft flower]

💀

[lost lily]

Yeah thats something I like about warrior in general. If someone screws up the pull timer it doesnt really cost me anything. Im just reck/avatar/charging regardless.

[smoky kayak]

That is the kind of stuff I have always fought against for Wars, it might sound cool on paper, but is just plain excessive in practice

[olive nest]

Yuk

[smoky kayak]

Go play FF for that nonsense lol

[olive nest]

Let’s go back to 6 abilites in a macro and the target evaporates

[kind thunder]

DH u can count with ur fingers how many buttons u have and it has a 16 step opener

[eager sigil]

1 of those steps is swapping herotalents before pull

[glass sphinx]

guys is there a intervene macro ?

[marsh falcon]

Gentlemen I am free from the circlet at last

[lost lily]

I have charge intervene and victory rush on the same button. But i generally only take intervene when im prot cause intervene on a tank during raid hurts.

[hollow plover]

intervening tank is free rage

[lost lily]

Sure if you survive the hit

[hollow plover]

die by the sword

[lost lily]

Its usually on accident when I do it so it isnt active. Cause the intervene part is on mouseover. And if mouse is on tank and you try to victory rush and instead eat a melee you die

[naive sage]

I mained it in TWW, from my pov it’s easier than it seems, the problem is you have to make counterintuitive decisions

[smoky kayak]

Agreed, though I think the fact that the talent tree is so split up into 3-4 distinct playstyles is in itself a bad thing

while I like that they have lots of options, it also creates a lot to keep up with

[lost lily]

Anyone have a good video guide for learning arms in m+? Ive watched critcake a bit and read the guides. And so far only sent like 10 minutes on the dummies and 2 +10s. I learn better by seeing though.

Or big things to focus on. Like instantly I knew I wasn't using demolish right cause of pack movement. Fury brain says on CD always. But realistically its probably better to let them clump and stop moving even if it delays the cast a little.

[kind thunder]

if ur tank is mid pull u are not using ur cds until they come to a stop, u can pre stack the might for a big demolish tho

[south cypress]

Not exactly a "guide" but Crit's video where he analyzed another arm's video in +15 meadery had lots of useful info for new and more experienced players imho

[lost lily]

This was Darkflame and its bad timing on my part but it felt like demolish was always up right when the tank moved from a ground aoe. So i only hit like 3 or 4 instead of all 10+. Skill issue for sure

Thanks Ill look at it. And its probably more my speed. I dont need someone saying cleave hits in aoe. But more of a think about these things while you are going. Focus on X during Y

[slow saddle]

Its always better to let mobs stscks also as fury

[lost lily]

Well yeah. But the aoe on thunderblast/improved ww hits is pretty forgiving vs the cone on demolish. And it is instant I can just drop it as the movement starts. Where as the last hit on demolish can miss if I start it right when movement starts

Still skill issue. But ill learn it quickly.

[steep osprey]

HUH

[steep osprey]

I love that enha has entirely different play styles between either hero talents

[smoky kayak]

I don't mind that, I'm talking more about the spec tree

[steep osprey]

I see

[smoky kayak]

though I think Arms and Fury are currently in a pretty good place in that regard

with the core rotations being largely the same (making them relatively easy to swap between), but each hero spec adding a few rotational differences

• Colossus uses more MS resets
• Slayer leans into Execute
• Thane works in Thunder Clap

there's a pretty good variety, and this is the first time we've had every version used in some form of endgame content at the same time, which creates a healthy amount of gameplay variety

[steep osprey]

I don’t like her fact that stormbringer m+ build isn’t using spirit wolves at all

A week before the tier launched, they nerfed some dog talents

And now it’s pretty mid

To me, spirit wolves are such a great enha spell

And it’s not even strong anymore

I know why they nerfed it but it’s too far

[naive sage]

There are degenerate techs to get 3-4 wolves during ascendance

[steep osprey]

I know

it's annoying though

[teal fossil]

@smoky kayak will there be an option simming with assisted combat/one button rotation

[smoky kayak]

eventually yes

[teal fossil]

Assisted combat probably less so

But I’d imagine one button would make haste much worse of a stat

[slow saddle]

Updates ngl i though we got something new

🥲

[smoky kayak]

there's been a lot of pressure on Blizz to make it a percent based malus instead, kind of an inverse haste penalty, while also implementing a castspeed penalty, since right now high haste instant-based classes suffer way more than low haste hard-casters

[teal fossil]

Yeah I think so too

No reason for it to be flat

Also saying your gcd is increased by 10% is more intuitive

[smoky kayak]

just easier, and as long as it's bad for everyone it doesn't necessarily need to be equally bad

[teal fossil]

Since you can think of it as a 10% dps loss

[smoky kayak]

but from my understanding, Evoker loses practically nothing

[teal fossil]

One button Aug evoker is a sight to behold

[slow saddle]

Well evoker needs to be bis but ye

[teal fossil]

Still though

Evoker is gonna giga parse in normal

And lfr

And that’s where the true competition is

[slow saddle]

Truth. But ye needs to be higher punishment for casters

2 x gcd

Or mby longer casts in gen

[fast zodiac]

do you use slam as arms alot?

[dim basalt]

It's just a filler

So really depends on procs

[fast zodiac]

was testing arms didnt manage make it go boom haha^^

[soft flower]

only if everything else is unavailable

[sly spear]

yes

[faint sparrow]

Hey all! Hope you are all good and healthy.

What are secondary stat caps for arms?

[tacit crystal]

stat caps dont exist

wear whatever gear the robot says does the most damage

[faint sparrow]

ok when do we get diminishing returns?

[tacit crystal]

whenever other stats do?

drs dont matter just wear whatever sims best

[kind thunder]

i dont like opportunist

[tacit crystal]

then dont play it

[kind thunder]

u can do that

[swift crown]

It's not that far ahead

pretty far for one talent point

but not astronimically

1% maybe

1.6% for me

actually

[kind thunder]

[swift crown]

as I said it's quite a lot for a talent point

but it's not the end of the world not to play it

[kind thunder]

im gonna try out with fierce followthrough see wsup

[tacit crystal]

if not thinking about it makes you play better

then do it

[kind thunder]

is just pressing MS back to back when it keeps resetting gives dopamine to brain

[strange perch]

What are Your predictions for Tier 3 (11.2)?

[tacit crystal]

🔮

[rare kite]

slam tierset

[tacit crystal]

no one knows and its a waste of brain power to think about it

[hollow plover]

Juggernaut duration increased from 12sec to 15sec is something that i don't predict as it's highly unlikely but it's something i pray for.

Either that or a rework of the talent

warrior rework likely wont happen

[storm prism]

Someone ban this guy right now

[thick kelp]

this seasons tierset was a slam tierset untill a last minute change

[rare kite]

slam has a 25% chance of resetting the cooldown of ms. when slam resets the cooldown of ms, your next ms gains 25% crit chance

[quaint otter]

4-set: Slam SLAMS

[chilly coyote]

make Ms 0 cd

and never slam again

[weak rain]

2 set overpower does funny thing
4 set ms odes funny thing(maybe with overpower involvement)

[hollow plover]

no but jugg needs a duration increase fr

[rare kite]

nah it needs to be decreased to 0. remove it

talent sucks ass

[hollow plover]

we are getting a rework in a perfect world, duh

but this change im suggesting is low effort

[rare kite]

surely a rework in Midnight...

[hard zenith]

A bit better balance in where dmg comes from would be nice. It's like... MS>Exe>=Overpower>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Reap the storm or something

It'd be nice if the other buttons made more of an impact.

We're not paladins where we want final verdict and a passive to be all our dmg

[rare kite]

i don't really agree. arms big ms hits

[hollow plover]

arms is based on casting MS OP and Execute, always has been

you want other buttons to do more ?

why

slam ?

hell no

[kind thunder]

slam but casted

[hollow plover]

1.8sec cast slam

[kind thunder]

and it interrupts ur auto attack swing so u have to time it at the end of it

[hard zenith]

Flashbacks of BC....

[kind thunder]

might of menethil slam build

[strange perch]

We are getting “slayer” theme for tier 3 - likely bladestorm.

[rare kite]

slam casted doesn't even feel bad in cata. i genuinely think alot of what makes slam feel bad is that overpower doesn't feel good either(without battelord atleast). so you slam "expecting" an overpower reset. i think we press overpower too much

[strange perch]

Tier 1 thane
Tier 2 colossus
Tier 3 slayer

[hollow plover]

?

no

[strange perch]

Wdym no? Why so much dislike for BS?

[rare kite]

prob coz arms bladestorm lasts like 12 years

[strange perch]

With tier 4 it will last entire century!

[kind thunder]

i have a fresh never seen idea for overpower

[hollow plover]

arms bladestorm is the worst button in modern wow

[kind thunder]

what if u can only cast it on battle stance but the catch is that we have a 3rd stance we want to be in as well called "zerker stance"

[hollow plover]

it prevents you from doing damage

:))

[rare kite]

forreal just have overpower like cata overpower. except the stance thing, make it consistent

[kind thunder]

is good pvp button

[weak rain]

just make bleed our most dmg, fuck ms

[kind thunder]

[weak rain]

nah, but fr, it makes my cry how pathetic BS, Rend, Roar, DW dmg is

like wtf

[quaint otter]

Doesnt sound very colossus to me

[kind thunder]

i think it was BFA when they tried to steer arms into a DoT class ye

i was playing rogue back then so i couldnt tell if ppl were angy

[quasi torrent]

"tried"

it kinda just happened

[kind thunder]

[latent moss]

dot class where u don't interact with it it just kinda does all ur damage

peak

[quaint otter]

https://tenor.com/view/its-peak-old-man-shaking-head-gif-3938163323164042530

New talent gushing wound

Bleed goes so hard that pierces nearby enemies for 70% damage from target

[spiral coral]

Does DK have some shit like that already

[kind thunder]

if u guys get a opportunist proc and are at 2/2 MP would prio MS or OP

[kind thunder]

yeah with same name too

[sacred zodiac]

Someone tell me how to feel quick

Warrior is saved !!!!!

[quasi torrent]

warrior exploded

[kind thunder]

[candid pecan]

I mean.... we'll take it

no bleed buffs

[halcyon valve]

Bladestorm brother ewww

[finite wasp]

for raid this will help

but mythic+

useless

and also they buff ret pally like crazy eta gg

[halcyon valve]

Need bleed buffs to revive the spiteful meme

[candid pecan]

yeah I was expecting cleave/demolish/bleed buffs to help m+

[halcyon valve]

Cleave buffs is a cope
That ability already does a lot

[finite wasp]

i was honestly leaning towards an aura buff

[willow seal]

Do we change ravager for bladestorm now? Or still Nah?

[finite wasp]

no blade storm is still trash

thats not anything like turbo significant

[lament elbow]

bladestorm should have been 50% for arms and 15% for fury

[candid pecan]

30% on bs and reap ST will go hard (5 min quick sim, 1 target patchwerk)

[finite wasp]

its basically nearly nothing

like around 1.5% diff on st

aoe im not sure

[candid pecan]

AOE?

[finite wasp]

can you sim it could be something on aoe

[willow seal]

Early this season arms streamers were rocking bladestorm in mplus

[acoustic laurel]

It's a buff when we basically didn't need a buff tho

[sharp wyvern]

so a 1.5 % buff ?

[finite wasp]

but slayer will still have trash aoe in general

[willow seal]

Do we go Colossus + blade storm ?

[candid pecan]

no

[finite wasp]

it will never happen

dont try it

[strange helm]

so the buff isn't significant enough for any talent changes? still colossus ravager?

[finite wasp]

yes

100%

[strange helm]

shame I kinda like bladestorm

[weak rain]

why ret and dh buffs? what

[acoustic laurel]

If you like bladestorm play bladestorm 🤷🏿‍♂️

[prime bramble]

The ref buffs are raid focused

Ret*

[strange helm]

isn't it just worse than ravager in m+ if I'm playing Colossus?

[weak rain]

so?

[acoustic laurel]

Sure but it's not like it's gonna deplete your key you'll just do less DPS

[rugged notch]

how do you do fellow arms warriors

are we swapping to slayer + bladestorm now or is that raid intended?

[weak rain]

no way, we don't swap

this change is meaningless

[rugged notch]

what about bladestorm though

do we play bladestorm now or still ravager?

[weak rain]

you only will feel less shitty pressing BS in a raid

[strange helm]

I guess but I personally don't see the point in playing a talent that just deals less damage. Thanks for the answer btw

[weak rain]

ravager colossus

[rugged notch]

what about m+

[weak rain]

no slayer in m+

[rugged notch]

aight

[sharp wyvern]

BS will never be better for collosus

[hollow wave]

I'd say its very hard to play collateral damage with BS, it fucks ups your stacks

[acoustic laurel]

Yeah like I said it's worse, but if you think BS is more fun then play that instead

[weak rain]

It's not like ret or dh are doing worse than warrior in raid rn tbh

i don't understand these buffs

whatever I guess

[hollow wave]

Does the Warrior dev actually play warrior?

[candid pecan]

they buffed Bladestorm so we stop playing ravager in raid, more buffs coming soon surely

[rugged notch]

why on earth would you buff rets

beats me

[devout pewter]

apparently just single target?

[sharp wyvern]

overall it kinda down bad

warriors kinda too

[weak rain]

does it matter? they don't need it

its liek buffing devokers

[sharp wyvern]

just when you go to specific bosses ret and warriors are good

[weak rain]

just beacause

[acoustic laurel]

Ret is just not that good or?

[weak rain]

ret is no worse than war

[hollow wave]

10% for final veridict is crazy for paladin

[acoustic laurel]

Warr is fine right now

[sharp wyvern]

im just going of overall statistics

not boss dmg

[devout pewter]

I mean, if they're really lacking in ST, they do need it.

[candid pecan]

no its not fine, give us back 15% execute, what is this?

what is this?

[sharp wyvern]

tbf on boss dmg ret is kinda bad

[devout pewter]

Looks like a graph of all the WoW classes

[weak rain]

ok nvm, they are barely worse

both of them

[acoustic laurel]

Damage
Raid full of AoE and padding adds

[weak rain]

arms prio dmg is decent, so what

[sharp wyvern]

balance kinda good rn

[weak rain]

arms should be at number 1-2 for boss dmg always, change my mind

if its not like that

warrior bad

[acoustic laurel]

[sharp wyvern]

warrior is up there

[vital mulch]

4% on havoc would bring R1 on for example Mugz Mythic only slightly ahead R1 Arms. Add in the slayer buff i guess they are about equal after the buffs

[sharp wyvern]

especially on the later bosses arms slaps

[devout pewter]

Technically if we don't get any group support, warrior should always be top 5 DPS with both speccs and top 1 dps for tanks..
But that's just wishfull thinking

[acoustic laurel]

If you're still progging somehow then arms is good because it does good boss damage

[sharp wyvern]

are you a mage in disguise?

[acoustic laurel]

That's what matters that's why it was good early on

[sharp wyvern]

also because mugzee p2

that alone is what make arms good

[devout pewter]

Funny enough, my "second main" was a mage for a LOOONG time until it got boring and now it's just a disc priest haha

[weak rain]

rn it doesn't matter

mugzee is overnerfed

[sharp wyvern]

still no gally nerfs

[candid pecan]

gally nerfs live on 13/14th may if you know what I mean

[weak rain]

gally is not a boss

[sharp wyvern]

lmao the entire game is getting nerfed on the 14th

the amount of power creep this patch is insane

[weak rain]

btw, these "buffs" to ilvl and corrupts will only dump warriors lower

check it

[sharp wyvern]

18% raid rep buff ,6 more ilvls , dinars , delve belt soon, corruption enchant

[minor gust]

Well we got our bladestorm buffs

[sharp wyvern]

its fucking nuts

[candid pecan]

delve belt?

[minor gust]

Only 30% tho

[sharp wyvern]

you didnt see it ?

its like circlet

but as a belt

[weak rain]

should've been 300%

[acoustic laurel]

Bro is whinemaxxing

[minor gust]

Needed to be at minimum 100% with how weak bladestorm is

[weak rain]

I guess I ll stop canceling it in execute phase

but will see

[sharp wyvern]

blizz trying to not make bladestorm mortal strike dmg :challenge impossible

[weak rain]

warrior will drop positions more with all the stuff that is coming, shorter fights = gg

[sharp wyvern]

maybe BS should do execute procs instead below 35%

[acoustic laurel]

No wonder you're crying about your dam

[kind thunder]

for that execute had to turn into a real button

[weak rain]

or maybe it should last for 4 sec

[sharp wyvern]

BS in execute is barely worth it wdym

[sharp wyvern]

are you not pressing execute ?

[weak rain]

BS in execute phase is just to proc brutal finish

[kind thunder]

if u are not playing slayer it turns into filler so... sometimes

[sharp wyvern]

give us prot execute base dmg

[acoustic laurel]

The only dooming I can agree with is the fact that removing execute from Colossus was a cringe change

[sharp wyvern]

cant have both hero specs spam execute

cant have both hero specs take ravager either

thats the real crime

[acoustic laurel]

I mean it would make sense if Colossus was competitive on Single target but in Nerub-ar you legit only played it on 1 boss

Compensation buffs made it better in M+ sure but it's still lacking as a ST option

[sharp wyvern]

same as this tier altho people stopped playing it on bandit

[weak rain]

colossus just feels more "warrior" if thats make any sense

slayer is so cringe to play

[acoustic laurel]

Colossus on Silken Court in Execute was peak

[weak rain]

same with thane, it feels much better than slayer furry

[sharp wyvern]

i still wish that demolish would be just 1 big hit instead of 3 small ones

just give me that 10 mil crit

[junior quail]

we can only wish

[sharp wyvern]

when cleave can hit more than the last hit of demolish something aint right

[kind thunder]

if the profiles didnt imply u play 1 on ST and 1 on AoE and actually could make a choice...

[weak rain]

I feel like if tier set was different

[sharp wyvern]

i kinda like the fact that one is for raid and the other for m+

[weak rain]

colossus might be better

but op tier set opportunist big bang

[sharp wyvern]

they dont want more MS multipliers

[fading isle]

30% is nothing

[minor gust]

Indeed

[sharp wyvern]

is bladestorm capped at 5 or 8 targets

[weak rain]

30% for bs, roar, rend , dw and I ll agree with this

[kind thunder]

soft cap 8

[minor gust]

nah keep bleeds piss weak til we can remove them all together

[sharp wyvern]

they gonna remove rend and make skullbreaker a real button

[hollow plover]

man wtf did i just read

bladestorm buff and ret buffs

god damnit blizzard

out of touch

[candid pecan]

we'll take it

gimme that 1% st buff

[minor gust]

Ret buffs are just ST

Will not change their M+ performance

[hollow plover]

"just"

ret deserves to burn

baby spec

[minor gust]

[dim basalt]

Our buff is kinda disappointing

But better than nothing

Also not sure why they only buff slayer

[vital mulch]

When are war buffs not disappointing 💔

[dim basalt]

The ones from mid season 1 were great

[weak rain]

when they buff bleed

[vital mulch]

Perhaps they will buff us properly after all the ilvl changes that are inc

[stable fiber]

yeah its really weird ngl, buff the aoe button on the way worse aoe specs.

im not even looking for ST buffs really, both specs have pretty strong raid ST

[sharp wyvern]

That's their goal
To buff the aoe on the underperformed are specs

It worked for fury at least

[minor gust]

Because col doesn't really need it. It actually sees play in the raid meanwhile Slayer is pretty unusable in M+

[stable fiber]

there is no way its even remotely close to colossus

[sharp wyvern]

Just wait till fury overperforms on some burst are fight and it gets gutted again

[minor gust]

It won't

[sharp wyvern]

No but like I said this change is mostly for fury

[tacit crystal]

its good for arms

[sharp wyvern]

Collateral arms buffs

[minor gust]

Because OF and double OF are dead

[stable fiber]

i felt like nerubar palace was mostly OF

yeah

[sharp wyvern]

Just like the collateral nerfs in S1

[tacit crystal]

the bad part is that i cant cancel bs as much anymore

[dim basalt]

I wouldnt mind something small still

[icy mulch]

Is that all they're doing for warrior? Wtf....

[sharp wyvern]

How can you be upset after they made CS unparriabe?

[tacit crystal]

@lean geode is there a way to sim cancelling bs to keep jug vs just letting jug fall

[icy mulch]

No addressing target caps for fury, no QoL for Arms. Yet Ret gets big ST buffs.

[lean geode]

Don't think arms can cancel BS anymore

[tacit crystal]

without losing significant damage?

[lean geode]

And also idk how to sim that anyways

[dim basalt]

That would require a rework tbh

[lean geode]

No like you literally can't cancelaura it

[sharp wyvern]

You should not expect any changes to target caps ever

[minor gust]

That stuff will not be seeing in a minor tuning patch that's 11.2 shit

[sharp wyvern]

That's cope

[tacit crystal]

what

how

[lean geode]

You could in SL but I think they changed it in DF

[minor gust]

You can cancel bladestorm

Get with the times old man

[tacit crystal]

you couldnt cancel bc hurricane

[sharp wyvern]

There used to be a passive that made you unable to cancel it in DF

[lean geode]

Oh

Either way I have no idea how to sim that

That's a Fishy/Walhe/Archi question probably

It sounds like it would be worth doing right before execute range but probably not substantially above there

[tacit crystal]

@fresh spire hi

[fresh spire]

hi

[tacit crystal]

how can one simulate canceling bs to keep jug up vs not canceling

or is it like how bowwl is thinking

[fresh spire]

i tried it

dps loss

[tacit crystal]

near execute only

oh nah

even with high jug stacks

[fresh spire]

yeh

[tacit crystal]

how high is high

[fresh spire]

for most part it wont bladestorm until executes have happened

[tacit crystal]

mm

ic

[fresh spire]

Like usually it will do MFE3>jug>sd2>sd running out before it ever bladestorms

and in execute it only BS when 2 EP so its just used execute before

[tacit crystal]

bc i tend to do bs before that and be turbo greedy

gg

never canceling again ig

also this destroys ravager ig

[fresh spire]

rav is gonna get buried

Slayer in keys got a pretty good boost

[tacit crystal]

any simulation on colo bs

[minor gust]

Colo BS

[tacit crystal]

[minor gust]

If BS got a giga buff I could see it but sadly only 30%

Like if it was 60% or higher and we got fury bladestorm so it was quicker we def play it on colossus

Would be fun

[fresh spire]

colo will still run rav imo

Reap looking pretty good now tho

since reap scales pretty hard with cleave in higher target counts

[minor gust]

Slayer might be playable now when your feeling bored at colossus

I did a couple 14s as Slayer it was a vibe

[tacit crystal]

ihave resil 14s now

[vapid vault]

Is it a big dps diff between the two?

[tacit crystal]

on which

[vapid vault]

Colossus and Slayer

[tacit crystal]

in aoe or st

[vapid vault]

Thought like m+ overall

[minor gust]

Currently yeah

After buff will be smaller

[fresh spire]

slayer likely will be really solid after buff ngl

[vapid vault]

In ST its probably better but feels capped still on aoe

[fresh spire]

better than colossus? not sure about that

[midnight flume]

hello, i am somewhat new to warrior and am trying to figure out why my damage is trash.. Wowanalyzer says im wasting over 40% of rage during raid fights and 25% downtime-- however i feel like im mashing buttons as fast as i can and prioritizing correctly-- any ideas on why im having this problem?

[tacit crystal]

link a log

[midnight flume]

sure, one sec

[pearl jasper]

So will this buff to bladestorm stop the ravager slayer nonesense?

[tacit crystal]

yeah

[pearl jasper]

thats good.

[midnight flume]

https://warcraftlogs.com/reports/BkXz1ZDbxwhWrjyp -- heroic Mugzee is the fight i killed on the war; i was on the rogue for 1st boss

[tacit crystal]

where are you seeing rage waste

also

rage is cosmetic before execute

[midnight flume]

just when i plugged it into wowanalyzer, thats what it told me; maybe thats not my big issue lol, im just trying to figure out why i suck

[tacit crystal]

can you link the wowa report

because im not seeing rage waste on my reports

Oh i see

[midnight flume]

https://www.wowanalyzer.com/report/BkXz1ZDbxwhWrjyp/16-Heroic+Mug'Zee,+Heads+of+Security+-+Kill+(5:26)/Raelwyn/standard

[weary root]

can bladestorm now?

[tacit crystal]

the answer is you never did the execute rotation at all

🙂

[minor gust]

Just a quick look but you have a lot of downtime. Your dmg is greatly effected by hitting buttons every gcd

A lot of moments were you just stop doing anything for 5-6 seconds

[tacit crystal]

you didnt get frozen

so what could be causing the gaps in downtime

getting jails?

[midnight flume]

i was in all the jail soaks

[tacit crystal]

yeah

...

you dont want to do that

but even then

you have to do your rotation when you arent in them

like

[minor gust]

There's still a mob to hit in the jail...

[tacit crystal]

you never press execute 2 times before ms

ever

1st is mine on sprocket 2nd is your mugzee

granted its not the same fight

but you never did any of the parts requiring execute

[midnight flume]

okay, so the last 35% of the fight is killing me essentially

[tacit crystal]

thats all of your damage as arms

you are worthless until execute

and you have to play like it

[midnight flume]

gotcha lol, well thank you guys so much. ill adjust and see where i fall into raid tonight

[tacit crystal]

if you pressed every button on cd

[nova marsh]

Gayt DAMN

[tacit crystal]

and somewhat did your execute rotation

[nova marsh]

That blood is life nerf is so deserved

[tacit crystal]

your damage will drastically increase

[tacit crystal]

its a 3% nerf that does little to nothing because its a random proc

[nova marsh]

It hopefully reduces their reliance on that damned proc

And maybe they won't rip if it procs during cds

they still will

[tacit crystal]

you still way more damage than wveryone without the proc

[flat willow]

well blood is life will do 5% of unholy damage in keys now

[tacit crystal]

it changes nothing

[flat willow]

they'll still beat warriors don't worry

[nova marsh]

Yeah I don't play warr no more

[tacit crystal]

that still does 5% if it procs at wrongs times or never

like what

[nova marsh]

They'll still beat enhance so lmao

[tacit crystal]

yes

[flat willow]

I don't even know if frost mage uses spellslinger

but why does every patch need a mandatory mage buff

• fuck ret paladin, ofc

[minor gust]

im gonna be so sad when that ret tier goes away hopefully warrior gets good changes next tier

[flat willow]

also kinda surprised they didn't buff boomkin again

surely they forgot

[spiral coral]

Does bs getting a buff make any difference at all to us in m+

[candid pecan]

no

[spiral coral]

Ok

[spring ruin]

verdict on the upcoming slayer buffs?

[spiral coral]

https://tenor.com/view/god-damn-it-ryan-reynolds-michael-bryce-the-hitmans-bodyguard-angry-gif-18233388

[minor gust]

it makes slayer better than what it was

will it be better than colossus no

[spiral coral]

Yeah I figured

I just wanted to play Slayer in m+

[minor gust]

then play it

[queen star]

😄

[spiral coral]

I’m absolutely going to and will try to make it work

Idc

[minor gust]

the gap will be much smaller now so I doubt its a big deal at all

[spiral coral]

Nah ima cook

[minor gust]

ive played slayer in a few 14s and its fine

[spiral coral]

This is going to work

[flat willow]

[spiral coral]

I belieeeeeeve in the spins

[hollow plover]

all TOP?

[minor gust]

no

[spiral coral]

Ima invite dks on my keys and beat them and then @ you

[minor gust]

ML floodgate workshop and meadery

[spiral coral]

Not really I’m just talking shit

[flat willow]

I hope they don't deal double your overall

[queen star]

we'll blame it on the nerfs

[flat willow]

well I guess with the blood beast nerf they'll only do +40%

[queen star]

but even with that its doubtful lol

[spiral coral]

I’m just going to press buttons harder

[flat willow]

the rets are going to kick your ass now tho

[queen star]

just get better procs too 🙂

[flat willow]

[minor gust]

nothing changed for ret M+

[flat willow]

saying single target doesn't matter in m+ is cope

now they'll kick your ass in aoe AND in ST

[severe crag]

Aren't rets already doing that

[hollow plover]

isnt it like 1.5% uhdk ST buff?

[flat willow]

so called fury players when the aoe classes are also above them on bosses

ah, wrong channel

still applies

[sly geode]

Will the bladestorm buff be enough to close the gap w demolish

[minor gust]

thats not what im saying at all the ST buffs were raid specific to talents and things that do nothing in M+ or are not even taken in the M+ build

[fresh spire]

gap is much closer, moment you go above 5 targets reap starts to get much stronger as the higher proc odds

much closer at 10 targets

slayer also doesnt suffer with cooldown desync maddness

[minor gust]

the buffs to ret was sub .5% increase for their M+ build basically negligible

[fresh spire]

-there is potential-/

[red stream]

guess we're still playing colossus...

[plucky mortar]

I use slayer cause I don't like being locked in place with demo on colossus 🤓

[flat willow]

now I'm no ret player so I'll believe you

[minor gust]

that looks pretty fun ill have to do some 15 or 16s as slayer in the big aoe dungeons

[flat willow]

you aren't locked in place, you are just slowed by 200%

[sly geode]

My warrior shall remain shelved until bladestorm/slayer is close enough to colossus 😦 demolish is such a horrible janky spell to press and not fun

[red stream]

I hate demolish

[plucky mortar]

So true bestie

[red stream]

I hate that colossus is best on both specs that use it right now

[flat willow]

ah, it's that time

[fresh spire]

fury slayer about to be evil

[pearl jasper]

you think so? I think it feels great to press. Janky and dangerous sure, but its hits hard

[flat willow]

the time to remind everyone that colossus is actually MOP fist of fury

except mop fist of fury stunned the mobs so they wouldn't run out of your fucking burst

and mop fist of fury was so awful they added the glyph to move during fist of fury in wod

and somehow, more than a decade later

they give us a worse fist of fury

[plucky mortar]

I feel like this is a backhanded jab at demolish

Oh it is

[livid crescent]

I'm quite baffled by what is the bis trinket for Arms? I currently have the Floodgate one, looking for my 2nd option (not house of cards or any other raid/delve trinket) Mainly m+ trinket