arms

[lean geode]

I just put one in bloodsurge and vibe

[cunning violet]

yeah hes a friend his trying his best

[lean geode]

Tell him I believe in him

[cunning violet]

will do

ok so what are the situations where we want to demolish at <10 stacks?

[lean geode]

In st

During execute range inside CS

I think that's basically in according to the sim, but in practice I feel like sending it at 8 stacks or something in opener isn't gonna kill you

#arms message

Archi makes a good point here about if a pack is going to die before you reach 10 stacks you may as well send early

[cunning violet]

yeah so in opener what in theory gives us the 10 stacks is initial Cleave and Sweeping strikes MS from Ravager and 2nd cleave ?

[cunning violet]

yeah I guess is up to the context of the key

like maybe you are very close to pulling an important pack so might as well save it

[lean geode]

Unhinged +SS doesn't give extra stacks anymore, just the one

[cunning violet]

damn

[lean geode]

One per MS*

But not two per MS like it used to

But yeah kinda depends on crit rng

[cunning violet]

its still 2 stacks per MS or Cleave crit right

[lean geode]

imo as long as you're not losing cleave casts during MBG and you're demolishing inside CS then you're vibing

[minor gust]

99% of the time you will still get 10 stacks before CS falls off

[cunning violet]

so for AoE its actually better to just wait for Demo till it hits 10 stacks first before sending and not actually follow the Wowhead opener that closely?

unless WB will fall off

obvo

[lean geode]

The WH opener doesn't know how lucky you get with crits on any given pull

[minor gust]

wowhead says to try and wait for 10 stacks in aoe but just as Bogbowwl said if things are about to die before that its worth sending

[lean geode]

I believe so but regular MS+SS will give 4 if both crit

Idk if the crits are independent of each other or not

Do you know Frozen?

Like can you crit one MS but not the sweeped one

[minor gust]

not something Ik on the top of my head but can test real quick

one of those things im sure I do know but my brain cant bring it up rn xd

[lean geode]

I mean it's not really actionable information anyways

You get stacks when you get stacks /shrug

Just curious

[minor gust]

yeha

[grand idol]

I have my dmg numbers off. I wouldnt even know if something crit.

[minor gust]

dont think just press buttons get stacks

[lean geode]

🤠

[minor gust]

press demoish

[minor gust]

yes SS crits are independent one MS can crit and the other can not

[cunning violet]

aight so basically hit buttons, the good ones, till the big one is shiny

in fury terms

nice

[minor gust]

yeah no need to overthink

most of the time your gonna enter the pack with a 10 stack demo anyways from the previous pull

[lean geode]

How long does CM last? Like 15s?

[minor gust]

24

[lean geode]

HOLY

[minor gust]

should be 1 min like imminent demise on slayer

tbh

[cunning violet]

is in this case better to just Cleave>TC>WB>Demo>SS>Rava>Cleave?

so we dont lose uptime on MBG

[minor gust]

cds before the WB

[cunning violet]

DR in there somewhere

[minor gust]

charge cleave tc roar ss rav ava wb cleave demo

[open ingot]

Does the roar dot not get boosted by avatar?

[lean geode]

It does

[minor gust]

it will get boosted retroactively

you dont care about the intial hit

[open ingot]

Ahh k thought it snapshotted

[minor gust]

TR dmg is from the dot

[open ingot]

Yeh i c

[lean geode]

Snapshotting is extremely rare at this point

[minor gust]

Snapshot doesnt exist anymore besides I think for feral a lil

[lean geode]

I think it's just like feral that does it

[grand idol]

Like 2 abilities snapshot.

maybe its just one now

[cunning violet]

yah so do we do this cause Rava can only fit two cleaves outside of BL so technically we WB>Cleave>Demo>Cleave?

[grand idol]

I know Unstable affliction and rip did. but UA isnt a thing anymore I dont think.

[cunning violet]

maybe WB>Cleave>Demo>MS>Cleave idk the timings tbh I know Cleave cd for me is 3.4secs or smth

[minor gust]

without EB resets you will still always get 3 cleaves inside MBG even if you rav before WB

[cunning violet]

oh nice

[minor gust]

cleave will be back after your demolish

[cunning violet]

got it

[lean geode]

Cleave cd reduced by IFTK innit

[minor gust]

again if your going into a pack without any demo stacks during that build up its key to prio cleave and MS until you get those 10 stacks. Only time you will send demo under is if CS is about to fall off or some mobs are about to die before you can get demo off

[cunning violet]

is demo cast hasted?

[minor gust]

yes

[stable fiber]

its grown on me

kills me sometimes though which is bad

[manic marlin]

if running mt arms mplus build with no executioners precision what prio does execute have? do you ignore ms? just execute instead of slam? or ms x2 op stacks>execute

[minor gust]

demo has its good and bad moments still want them to change how it works tho cuz not moving and it being able to break sucks

[stable fiber]

demo is so good for damage amps

shit like big momma

[minor gust]

yeah

especially when you crit

[stable fiber]

i hit a 40 million demo crit as prot warrior

on that boss

[minor gust]

https://tenor.com/view/cum-gif-20534148

[stable fiber]

lmao

i think it could be good for first boss of raid

like you just pop everything and you hit the adds

i think you can burst for like 250 mil randomly

[prime bramble]

easiest priory ive done yet kekw

[balmy kindle]

I just want demo to be one hit

I wanna see how meme the numbers can be on crits

[stable fiber]

cant you sweeping strikes the initial couple of hits excluding the big aoe hit?

i wouldnt mind it being one hit that you can sweeping strike

might be broken as fuck though

[balmy kindle]

Oh you can it's just your last hit might not crit

I love it when during dmg amps all 3 strikes crit

[minor gust]

Colossus on mythic silken court was a banger everytime

Loved that fight because of it

[bleak fog]

Team, got a question... Last night in raid my computer (Laptop Ryzen 7 6800H/3070TI) played around with me and I have no idea why... The computer work with some boost when the GPU and stuff go at max when needed TGP150 Watt.. And it worked fine all the time exept when we started and under a bossfight.. It idle and I get 20-30 FPS.. Any one know what the hell that can be?

[minor gust]

I will prob play Colossus on mythic vexie for fun next week

Should be able to get two demos in the amp phase

[bleak fog]

Looked like this under the fight..

Should be more like this (right now in Dornogal).

[ripe field]

your damage will go up once you hit 12s. Reliably getting at least 2 Warbreaker 10 stack demos per pull helps and so much of arms dmg is concentrated into their warbreaker window getting a 2nd or 3rd off really increases output. It isnt as bad as Assassination Rogue or other ramp heavy classes but mobs having low HP will make your dps look bad compared to pals with their 30 second damage windows

[cunning violet]

Yeah true, ill try running 12s with it this weekend

[ripe field]

Note that Warbreaker grants more haste when mobs are low. If you can open with Warbreaker and then hit it again once mobs are lowish the gain is surprising

[molten mauve]

what is your weapon ilvl ?

[fading isle]

mage left after 5 deaths after 1st boss at a +11, so make sure to avoid this guy 100%

hmm don't mind the other 3 srry lol, good tank though

good players, proudmoore mental ig

[wet crag]

Reading the wowhead guide and it had two talent builds for arms in M+, slayer with juggernaut which I assume is mostly boss dmg focused? And then three Colossus one says spiky AoE what does that mean exactly? Just big burst dmg but you're out of luck if the pack still lives after that and I got no CDs left?

[boreal quartz]

Colossus is higher burst + higher sustained aoe on packs

Slayer only really does St better but colossus isnt isnt as shit as in the previous tier

[wet crag]

So basically Colossus for fortified, slayer for tyrannical? If I'm not doing 10s

Or more group dependent I guess. Also what about warbreaker vs Colossus smash for Colossus? The guide says smash is better but then the linked build has warbreaker

[boreal quartz]

Forgoing colossus in keys is basically int with how much aoe it is

Warbreaker is just better for keys generally

Since it enables really big cleave with collat from last pack into full CDs on next

[wet crag]

So Colossus all the time is keys and then slayer for raid?

[boreal quartz]

Yea basically

Try slayer in a key after colo in it and youll see why

[tacit crystal]

hi we got rik to 15%

[balmy kindle]

Adding, Colo has built in DR which helps alot in 10+ keys, it's alot better this season as well with all the buffs to stamina and DR on tree

[low lintel]

anyone got an arms m+ 10 or higher details distribution thing

curious how mine looks in comparison to someone with hands and eyes

[untold trench]

Easiest is to compare to someone similar on WarcraftLogs. Just go, sort by key level, ilvl, spec and hero talent

[bold granite]

this was a 12 priory I just did

if this is what youre asking for

[lofty elm]

What’s MBG?

[eager sigil]

Merciless bonegrinder

[wet crag]

Holy shit Demolish kinda fucks

How much should I worry about cd alignment on demolish and Colossus smash?

[balmy kindle]

Don't think you should, demo is always try to send on 10 stacks while warbreaker is whenever it's up

[dim basalt]

They often line up but if they don't just send

[astral yarrow]

if something ever gets reduced cooldown from something, your first instinct should be to send on cooldown

[vivid arch]

Seeing people drop EP for Colos M+ builds. Probably off the back of Critcake promoting the idea? New to warrior this tier, does that mean we drop MS during execute except to maintain Deep Wounds/Rend? Or still send it on CD?

[sacred zodiac]

If you drop ep execute isnt really worth pressing iirc

You just play pre execute but replace slam with exe

[vivid arch]

Roger, TY

[wet wedge]

Hello can someone help me? I'm using macro avatar and trinket together but sometimes my trinket is not used.

[weary hull]

does it happen in m+ when u play with the affix

if so read what the affix does

[wet wedge]

Both in m+ and raid.

[zealous pivot]

happens to me too

just press a couple times

idk an actual fix

[swift crown]

no-EP makes you MS more not less

[zealous pivot]

thought of maybe putting trinket first in macro

[thin folio]

Do u hav 1 or 2 trinkets on use? If it's 2, the second will hace a 20sec cd

[zealous pivot]

no

only thing i can maybe think of is maybe im using during demo and ava pops but trinket doesnt

but havent looked too far into it yet

[thin folio]

I have in my macro /cast Avatar, /cast Roar and /use 13 and It works well in that order

[zealous pivot]

it doesnt happen all the time

just notice sometimes ava is used and trinket isnt

[thin folio]

Whats the trinket?

[zealous pivot]

house

[sacred zodiac]

Its technically possible to desync since macros dont really press every button at the same time and you press the macro in the tick one thing is up but the other is still on cd

But this is also insanely rare

[zealous pivot]

noticed it maybe 3-4 times in the past week or two

im just thinking putting trinket first

cause i dont notice trinket not going off

but would def notice avatar not going off

cause visual and audio ya know

[vapid pine]

Do you have BiS?

[zealous pivot]

no

its none of the obvious stuff lol. spongies response seems most likely

[icy badger]

how legal is slayer in top

[eager sigil]

probably still kinda bad

but its m+ so play what you want

[icy badger]

i love colo for st

[quasi swallow]

is overcapping on rage bad on arms?
in the event that MS is on cd and you are full rage.
Do you OP or slam?

[icy badger]

slam if ms/op arent usable

[quasi swallow]

and if op is usable OP even if u overcap rage?

[icy badger]

slam if you dont have 2 stacks of whatever its called

some overcap is fine if it cant be helped but generally youre doing ms > op > slam

[manic marlin]

if running mt arms mplus build with no executioners precision what prio does execute have? do you ignore ms? just execute instead of slam? or ms x2 op stacks>execute

[icy badger]

just replaces slam

[quaint otter]

Mt arms?

[quasi swallow]

what two stacks u mean?

[quaint otter]

Of op

[dim basalt]

Execute replaces slam, so nothing really changes

[quasi torrent]

sanctum arms

sanctum arms

[sacred zodiac]

Pile on

[whole lark]

random question as i'm very unlucky and don't have 4 set yet, after winning streak ends can it also re stack straight after with the cleave and ms stacks ?

[swift crown]

MS>OP>Exe

Basically what you're looking at

Exe isn't that good of a button without EP

[fresh spire]

Ravager sweep bug has been fixed generation extra stacks and has been patched on sims. First glance changes is the normal build plays exactly the same. Though if you are a DN enjoyed. Ms is now higher prio than Dreadnaught at all times instead of op>ms. Soa builds remain unchanged

[swift crown]

Yes fuck DN

[minor gust]

Fuck deez nutz?

[quasi torrent]

DN bad anyway

[ripe field]

is this correct? Arms colossus uses Execute to funnel rage for Anger Management moreso than being the best damage button. Mortal Strike deals significantly more damage but execute grants 20 rage worth of ability cooldown for the cost of 18 rage while amping MS damage.

[ripe field]

MS will deal more damage. Execute spam at the end of packs to get abilities off of cooldown for the start of the next pull

[astral yarrow]

or just follow prio and send CDs 4 seconds later next pack

[quasi torrent]

its a classic case of

doesnt matter

[frank sky]

should i still craft a 2h wep even if i have Best-In-Slots on HC?

[eager sigil]

yea

2hander from vault would be best

[wanton sierra]

its friday!!

hey fellow arms, im updatin my ui, im essentially copyin the critcake ui, but i noticed that he runs the important buffs information of the middle of the screen, under his character... do you know where i can find those?

[thick kelp]

type !ui in his chat

[fresh spire]

Prioing execute might seem the play but when you factor ms/cleave lowering demolish/stacking Colossal Might it ends up being worth just following same prio ordering always

Cleave>Ms>op>execute>slam

I'll have a deeper dig into ordering over weekend. If anything major changes archi likely will update stuff when we find out 👍

[fleet lake]

i dont understand arms. im simming for 2 mil dealing 1.3 mil st dps

[thick kelp]

rough

[fleet lake]

need to send a log soon, cause thats not possible

how important is rent uptime?

[thick kelp]

should be 99.8%

minimum

[astral yarrow]

recurring, of course

[fleet lake]

well now i did 1.65 mil i guess its just uptime issue

https://de.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JRxGznVDm2MkhF8L?fight=10&type=damage-done&source=37 can yall check it for me

[wanton sierra]

nice ill try

[fleet lake]

and tell me my major issues

[thick kelp]

https://wowanalyzer.com/report/JRxGznVDm2MkhF8L/10/37

didnt 2nd pot

missing leg enchant

no food buff

not pressing MS

[fleet lake]

wowanalyzer is the biggest bait xD

[thick kelp]

not using opportunist

not really

@lean geode updated to be accurate enough for ST

for both specs

[fresh spire]

[thick kelp]

you are just

misusing execute

ignoring opportunists procs

and not pressing MS properly

[fleet lake]

i just press ms and overpwer when it comes up everytime. and execute when it proqs

ms prio

[thick kelp]

go read a guide if thats what u are doing

[fleet lake]

i mean on this fight there was a lot of running behind boss cause this tank was puilling him super weirdly

[thick kelp]

yeah I can see you had 12% downtime too

[fleet lake]

from 2 to 4 big gain? still have no 4 p

and i thought arms is quite easy

[thick kelp]

it is

and yes

it is a sizeable gain in dps to have 4p

[teal fossil]

Arms is quite easy

But you are still not following the rotation

[fleet lake]

yikes struggling on arms , playing every mage spec 95-99 ish avg

thats bruh

[thick kelp]

melee vs range diff

range is quite afk this tier in raid

[fleet lake]

its not meele vs range diff, played rogue on good avg aswell

[thick kelp]

well

[fleet lake]

yea okay thats fair

[thick kelp]

read a guide and hit dummies for 15

[fleet lake]

i mean its my second day on warr. xD

[thick kelp]

you will be 95% there

[fleet lake]

and i tanked most of the time cause im not getting invites

[thick kelp]

going from 2p to 4p is around 6% dps gain

for arms

[teal fossil]

Then yeah just read the guide

You know how to play the game

Now just learn to play the class

[calm hollow]

i guess i have to improve on that part, didnt know opportunist is so high prio in exe

[thick kelp]

you can ignore the rage part if you play bladestorm

and yeah opportunist is a big buff + it plays into our tierset to press OP with such high prio

[vapid pine]

As in press it whenever we have Opportunist and not 2 MP stacks?

[thick kelp]

yes

[vapid pine]

Jeez

[minor gust]

oh when did you guys make that discovery

ngl I like the sound of that better

[thick kelp]

like 2 weeks before the season

[fleet lake]

so i should probably track opportunist?

[minor gust]

so why is everything having this rage conditional then?

[fleet lake]

since my ui doesnt show that

[thick kelp]

it is a ravager only thing realistically

[thick kelp]

https://wago.io/Q5KkvQ0m2

and htis too is important https://wago.io/9n9GqeQ6-

[remote ledge]

Did my first overall over 3,5M as colo arms. I think I finally am getting it

[slow saddle]

Colo fun

Just cleave a lot

[fleet lake]

what does this do

[minor gust]

is the reason why this wasnt mentioned anywhere just to keep things simple for people or because you guys were expecting changes?

cuz this is the first time im seeing this

[thick kelp]

simplicity

[minor gust]

ah

[thick kelp]

tells you when to consume sudden death buff before execute phase as Slayer

[minor gust]

tbh sounds easier to tell people to just hit OP when opportunist is proced instead of having to pay attention to your rage aswell

[remote ledge]

Yea I stopped thinking, warbringer on cd, ss on cd, cleave ms op, 0 thought

[icy mulch]

Hmm, is there anyway to figure out how much dps loss it is to not use potions in a dungeon?

[thick kelp]

sim dslice and disable potion from settings

[astral yarrow]

that is gonna vary so much that i dont know how you would do it without having a giant samplesize of yourself playing with and without

Dslice is set 6 min though

[teal fossil]

So you miss out on 2 potions ish

[thick kelp]

well run 30min 5t

[astral yarrow]

xd

[icy mulch]

Yeah, I don't think it's really worth concerning about.

[thick kelp]

but you can think Pots in keys

same logic as pots in raids

[remote ledge]

You probably lose a lot

[thick kelp]

you do

[icy mulch]

Yeah, just a random thought on how much value they actually are overall.

[thick kelp]

especially if you get it to lineup with lusts and big pulls

[slow saddle]

Do same pulls

Pot dont put

Check?

Like floodgate 1st pull almost always the same

[fleet lake]

so ifoppöortunist basically is up, press it except u have 2 stacks of the buff that buffs MS from overpower?

[thick kelp]

yes

or SD WA says KACHING *pre execute phase

[fleet lake]

then press execute before?

[thick kelp]

yes

Kaching highest prio

[ripe kiln]

do someone have a weakaura to track Colossal Might ? Thanks

[fleet lake]

does it do that more than once before execute? cause it just did it once on dummy only

prolly tro fast in execute range

[minor gust]

kaching sound only plays if any of the 3 conditionals are met

[thick kelp]

it only does it when you hit one of the following:
-3 stacks of MFE
-Juggernaut falling off
-SD 2 stacks
-SD falling off

realistically none of those will ever be met in execute phase

[fleet lake]

okay thanks for the help i will look into it

[eager sigil]

press shit on cd and execute when it goes ding

[fleet lake]

will do and try

[minor gust]

hit buttons and vibe

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/148898720803586048/1068982807847776286/MSbun.gif

[slow saddle]

Slayer could be grest

At

Make juggernaut 5 stackd

[remote ledge]

Does someone know if it's worth putting lock n stalk on aoe mode ?

[calm hollow]

feels kinda weird not pressing Execute the moment it procs tho, i see shiny and i want to press

lmao

[quasi torrent]

blame jugg

[flat willow]

You can blame juggernaut for everything, tbh

Except test of might, that thing sucks on its own

May it never see the light of day again

[thick kelp]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1255514434001047684/1352386692090429450/image.png?ex=67de7c81&is=67dd2b01&hm=0bdda8ac90a2034e361d5d22c93e19987a364bc6f1aab3fffb9581cb8c76ec52&

[slow saddle]

Dip feels so bad

But 5 stacks would be such feel goodier

[calm hollow]

oh well, this was a week ago

will use that wa

[slow saddle]

I mean bad luck is horrid

[calm hollow]

[slow saddle]

Ah u didnt a

Wa

Wa helped me a lot

[calm hollow]

i just press exe when it procs, now i learned its bad

[minor gust]

You would think that would be the correct decision but alas here we are

Highly suggest reading any of the guides linked in DPS faq

[calm hollow]

not gonna lie, i like this WA

(dummy)

[zenith lodge]

is the dungeon slice sim accurate for arms?

[minor gust]

Some people like dungeon slice but I just find it better to sim ST then AOE and then decide what I want to prioritize.

[calm hollow]

i learned 2 important lessons today, thanks

[teal fossil]

Well you always have high uptime on juggernaut

It’s about the stacks

[hexed snow]

On AoE m+ yes

On ST raids no

You can also switch back forth between AoE and ST on m+

Floodgate 3rd boss kelp ads you can do it as AoE and then when the 3rd boss spawns swap it to ST

But I just put it as AoE on m+ and let it be like that the entire run

[icy mulch]

Ads on swampface?

[rugged lily]

before swampface he means

the group of 6

[icy mulch]

I've never seen those as adds, just more trash mobs.

[fleet lake]

are we sending ms the second its up doesnt matter how many buffs we have when there is nothing higher prio? or do we want to always send MS with 2 execute buffs in execute phase + given overpower buffs

[thick kelp]

always with 2 execute buffs in execute

[fleet lake]

okay and then opportunist higher prio than that ms? so we send opportunist first then MS?

[thick kelp]

opportunist is higher prio than that MS if you dont have 2 stacks of MP

[fleet lake]

gotcha

thanks

have been at like 1.7-8 on dummy now so its clicking in my head 😄

[mortal rivet]

Was it last season that it was mostly just execute spam and this is new (2:1 execute to MS)?

[calm hollow]

was that with execute phase?

[calm hollow]

the difference by changing 1 neck, crazy

[compact geyser]

keep that high crit and make up the haste with oil/food/flask

[calm hollow]

bigger haste sims only 18k dps better, will try the higher crit, how it feels, played that in m+ only so far, colossus loves crit

[lean geode]

HOLY thanks for reminding me I forgot to open a PR for the APL updates from a couple weeks ago

[red oar]

Do we ever hold cds to line them up outside of niche reasons on certain bosses? I feel like my cds unsync a lot due to hero talent cdr procs

[lean geode]

Have there been more APL changes since Mar 10 Walhe?

[thick kelp]

uh

whats the march10 updates

[lean geode]

Some SkS rage stuff, removing winning streak check, Ravager APL support (which maybe should just be removed at this point?), 1xEP MS with BL

[thick kelp]

nono keep the ravager apl support

[fleet lake]

yes

was just hitting the dummy

no bl nothing

[thick kelp]

the 1ep MS with BL stuff is for colossus only and the line is ms if ep stack >0 when Blord

[lean geode]

Maybe just some rewording then for the rav stuff bc I added the bullet point even if they don't have rav - the check is correct, it just shows the helper text so it's not confusing

[lean geode]

Yeah just for colossus, and I have

 spell: SPELLS.MORTAL_STRIKE,
      condition: cnd.and(
        cnd.debuffStacks(SPELLS.EXECUTIONERS_PRECISION_DEBUFF, { atLeast: 1 }),
        cnd.inExecute(executeThreshold),
        cnd.hasTalent(TALENTS.BATTLELORD_TALENT),

[thick kelp]

Yeah the rage check is only for Ravager and additionally there is the line to NOT mortal strike whilst ravager is up, just rotate between exec and op

[thick kelp]

yeah looks proper

[lean geode]

"while ravager is up" is a relatively difficult thing to check in wowa because the ravager buff isn't logged gg

And the duration is hasted

[calm hollow]

I did 1.8m without exe phase, just checking the WA how it works

[thick kelp]

xff

[calm hollow]

I wonder how much it would be with a min exe phase

[thick kelp]

unfortunately the ravager thing is a very major thing for the specs playing it

[lean geode]

So I'd have to fabricate a buff based on the cast event with a duration based on haste, but then also the duration would need to update when haste updates

And I kinda cba

[thick kelp]

xdd

[lean geode]

Does anyone really play rav slayer or EP colossus anymore anyways

[thick kelp]

but yeah the stuff you listed looks to be all of the changes for ST

[thick kelp]

gonna play on mugzee

[lean geode]

Okay cool I'll probably open a PR this afternoon then

[lean geode]

Anyone who's getting to mugzee at this point should know how to play and dissect logs well enough to not need wowa I fear

[thick kelp]

yes

[rare kite]

bandit as well? i heard the fight is pretty easy tho so might not matter

[thick kelp]

Bold to assume we are gonna play slayer on bandit

[olive nest]

Going to play arms on bandit!

[cobalt barn]

(I've already asked for help in log review but had no replies)
Hope it's ok to ask here: I've not been a DPS for long and am also relatively new to Warr. When trying to analyse my own performance I notice my mortal strike usage sits around 75%. I see other people's at like over 100% sometimes. Am I messing up my global timing? I press mortal pretty much on cooldown most of the time..

[olive nest]

The only two buttons that take priority over Ms are SD with the right conditions and OP when you proc opportunist

So your MS should be on cd asap a majority of the time

Execute phase this changes a little

Depending how often your proc opportunist

[cobalt barn]

That's pretty much how I play - Only OP with opportunist and execute sudden death procs when juggernaut is about to run out, it's on 2 stacks or 3x marked for death, right?

I'm not really used to DPS and I've only been back a short while so maybe I'm just rusty

[thick kelp]

i wouldnt take Stix

analyzer

rather look at

sprocketmonger

since its not made for aoe

[cobalt barn]

If this is about my post sorry, this is consistent on most bosses, that was just a random log I entered, I didn't specifically choose a boss it would have just been the one I was looking at in that moment

[thick kelp]

twas about your post

https://wowanalyzer.com/report/1RQ3VMhwkPX2W9JB/24-Normal+Sprocketmonger+Lockenstock+-+Kill+(2:41)/Grellbo/standard

assuming you are grellbo here

[cobalt barn]

Yeah sorry

[thick kelp]

you seem to have bigger problems

with SD usage and opportunist

[cobalt barn]

Oh yeah 100%

[naive breach]

walhe do i play blademasters torment

[thick kelp]

Sure

[modest spruce]

hi, most streamers/videos I watch have their cleave at like almost double of whatever comes second in the breakdown, am I doing something wrong? Pressing it pretty much on cd on AoE

[thick kelp]

are you doing

what level of keys

[modest spruce]

that was a +10

[boreal quartz]

OP mega high no? @thick kelp

[modest spruce]

2.8m overall

[thick kelp]

might be a positioning issue

what key

[modest spruce]

floodgate

[thick kelp]

eh

normal with 4p

[modest spruce]

I did a mechagon and somehow got mortal strike above cleave

[boreal quartz]

I didnt play since 4p so prolly ye

[modest spruce]

I only ever played fury, arms is a little strange to me

[thick kelp]

idk

[boreal quartz]

You could be lead to believe that key has less aoe than others

[thick kelp]

can only say that you arent pressing cleave on cd

[cobalt barn]

I'll focus more on these then, maybe make some WAs to help me out

[thick kelp]

https://wago.io/9n9GqeQ6-

https://wago.io/Q5KkvQ0m2

[modest spruce]

I do good damage like 3m all keys, but it always feels like I'm doing something wrong, never do those huge dps on big pulls

[thick kelp]

could be positioning issue

[modest spruce]

I'm at 662 ilvl, feels like I should do more

[thick kelp]

cleave range is quite short

[modest spruce]

oh, I never thought about that

[cobalt barn]

only 39 installs seems low for an addon that tracks this? i'll give it a try

[olive nest]

Damnit wowA says I’m big noober for taking stormbolt and not casting it during bladestorm

[modest spruce]

with fury I just stand in the middle of the pull

[thick kelp]

cleave is a wide cone infront of you

sweep is based on your character tho

[wintry pagoda]

does demolish require you to stand still?

[modest spruce]

that makes a lot of sense, but somehow I didn't think of it lol, I'll try to be more mindful of that

thanks

[wintry pagoda]

oh it forces you to stand still looks like

[thick kelp]

you are slowed by 99% during the cast

[charred quest]

`Anyone know if the timed 12s is account bound or char bound (the no longer deplete below 12 i mean)

[naive breach]

would you say the avatar SS talent is pmuch worth at 14 and above walhe ( on priory and cinderbrew prolly the most ? )

[thick kelp]

idk i dont main the minigame

but probably?

[naive breach]

minigame deniers

[thick kelp]

I raid prog into raidlog

[wintry pagoda]

do people complain about the demolish thing or is that just a knee jerk reaction when i logged in on my fresh 80

[golden zinc]

Is arms easier to play than fury in raid?

[thick kelp]

people complain

[thick kelp]

yes and no

[olive nest]

I like everything about demolish except that it can miss if target is moved out of range

[naive breach]

1 more demolish cancel and im out

[minor gust]

Plenty more demolish cancels in your future

[olive night]

worst feeling in the world

[steel swallow]

If i'm playing without Executioner's Precision do I only press MS to maintain DW in execute phase?

[olive nest]

They should make it hit regardless as long as it’s cast before target moves

I’m fine with the root

[minor gust]

Just stun the mobs before you demolish. Tank can't move em if their stunned

[olive night]

not all mobs can be stunned...

[thick kelp]

if you play wihtout EP you just replace slam with execute in execute phase

[minor gust]

Sssshhhhhh

Let me cope

[naive breach]

little spear aswell to be extra safe in case of stun DR

[olive nest]

First boss cinder… demolish and boss immediately chases tank after knock

Riprip

[olive night]

Yeah Demolish for first boss in Cinder feels bad , so much moving

[steel swallow]

Oh so I don't want to press execute at all without EP talented?

[naive breach]

yell at priest to pi you so demolish is quick

[thick kelp]

Yeah its a filler ability when you dont have EP

[minor gust]

In all honesty tho most demolish cancels are a skill issue

[steel swallow]

Thanks for the info @thick kelp!

[naive sage]

If only slayer was decent in m+

[west oracle]

Hello folks, which slot we should skip for tier set, as not to convert

[olive nest]

Really you want to sim your top gear in your bags

[west oracle]

Hands i guess ?

[olive nest]

But assuming all bis items chest is the one you wouldn’t run

[west oracle]

But hands gives versatility, compared to chest haste and mastery

[thick kelp]

helmet

[olive nest]

Some vers is good if you have almost none

[west oracle]

Btw i only do mythic +

Ans play clos built

Colossal

[west oracle]

We do dungeon slice sim ?

[naive breach]

wait you replace execute with slam without EP ?

[olive nest]

You can but I prefer to sim 1T 5min & 5T 1min and compare items

[thick kelp]

you replace slam with execute inside exe phase without EP

[olive nest]

Usually I prefer ST items

Since I also raid

And boss damage matters too in keys

[thick kelp]

so prio is ms op exe/slam

in st

[naive breach]

eh

[thick kelp]

Much better

on colossus

especially when no skyfury in grp

[naive breach]

now im even more confused

[thick kelp]

why

[naive breach]

so with EP

where would you press slam

[thick kelp]

before execute phase

as a filler

[naive breach]

oh

[west oracle]

Whats the sim name ?

[naive breach]

i thought you would magically press SLAM somewhere in execute with EP

[thick kelp]

no

slam doesnt exist in execute phase

[naive breach]

slam almost doestn exist in filler aswel tho

sometimes

maybe

[olive nest]

Patchwerk

[naive breach]

thank you

[west oracle]

Thanks

[olive nest]

Glgl

[naive breach]

ok i didint even consider playing withotu ep

saved by walhe

[wintry pagoda]

do people macro slam with any other spell?

[thick kelp]

no

[naive breach]

@thick kelp same goes for multitarget in normal prio aswell yeh? cleave>ms>op>exe ( with sweeping)

[sacred zodiac]

what are you thinking of macroing it to

[wintry pagoda]

was thinking thunderclap but if im not playing tclap it is bad i think

i just found an open button

[sacred zodiac]

you're aware that you can't macro multiple GCD-bound buttons together ye

[lean geode]

There's a smallish bug with SD duration checks in wowa because the SD buff log events are supremely cursed; the fury modules jump through hoops to fix it, but arms is implemented differently such that it can't easily do that. Shouldn't make a big difference, but is worth noting

[wintry pagoda]

yeah iirc it would cast tclap then if tclap on cd it slams

[quasi torrent]

it would not do that

[wintry pagoda]

i see

[thick kelp]

aoe is cleave ms op exe prio always regardless of ss

[naive breach]

is it ever worth to go for cheeky double OP stack for cleave

[sacred zodiac]

chat is this real

[naive breach]

for big collaterals

[thick kelp]

can be on the last two globals of ss

[naive breach]

and skip a MS

kk

[thick kelp]

eli5

[olive nest]

I like to double stack martial prowess as soon as collateral buff is available

I don’t hold for an op charge though

Just spend what I got to get 2 stacks

[lean geode]

SD stacking to 2 but not extending duration makes log very confusion

Or rather

Going 1->2 extending duration but 2->1 not

There are like 4 different types of buff events

[thick kelp]

ok but going 2->1 doesnt extend duration ingame either

[lean geode]

Correct

But according to the logged buff events, it should

[thick kelp]

uhhuh

[lean geode]

So when wowa processes the buff events, it thinks the duration IS refreshed on 2->1

[thick kelp]

xd

[lean geode]

There are like 4 different kinds of buff events logged

[thick kelp]

this is why no one wanted to upkeep wowa

[lean geode]

I had to override them with some manual shit for fury

One of the main devs said something along the lines of "I've never seen a spell this cursed before"

🙂

6 different execute spells with 8 different buffs and all of the events are wrong 🙂

[thick kelp]

Yeah sounds alot like arma when he implements warrior stuff to simc

[lean geode]

Arma too big brain for me

Guys one another level

On*

I'm barely literate man

[naive breach]

lmao

[thick kelp]

same

[naive breach]

90% of warriors

you have a few chosen ones who evolved from the stoneage to enlighten us

[thick kelp]

most of the apl is unreadable before archi cleans it

when fishy and me write it

[thick kelp]

actually not even one since arma is a dk guy

[naive breach]

secret warrior enthusiast

[thick kelp]

he feels bad for us

[ripe field]

thanks for the info

[fresh spire]

Arma is the goat

[ripe field]

while Ive got ya, do yall consider Arms to be one of the classes that has hard Haste breakpoints that they need to meet or exceed for the class to play well? Starting the season not knowing Arms it felt like complete dogass - like a melee caster. Got my 4 set and about 8,000 more Haste and now it feels great

Im sure its partly familiarity but its definitely also the fact that Demolish animation doesnt play like my char is standing in quicksand anymore

[strange helm]

So Arms Slayer won't be viable in m+ until tuning?

[teal fossil]

Well like you said it’s more about feeling than actual performance

Haste generally helps a spec feel better

Doesn’t mean haste has breakpoints where it starts being good/bad

[flat willow]

the tuning won't change anything, slayer isn't designed for m+

except if they break colossus in half you won't be playing slayer in m+

[minor gust]

100% BS buff would do some things

[ripe field]

Its somewhat performance, though. I cant tell you how many times the pull got juuuust barely pulled out of range for the 3rd strike of Demolish. Now when I go into a pack I'm not thinking "okay here is where the tank is gonna stop and I can safely Demo...wait nope we're still moving, okay, okay"

[hazy flower]

If they break colossus in half you wont be playing arms in keys 👍

Youre welcome

[manic stirrup]

thanks

[hazy flower]

How u been choco

U raiding this tier?

[manic stirrup]

good

not raiding im a magus

[hazy flower]

Keys?

Like fr or some casual fun stuff

[manic stirrup]

https://raider.io/characters/us/illidan/Imchocodup

idk yet

[ripe field]

So, Im a war main and really enjoy the class, but kinda like last season I can't stop myself from wondering why any M+ group would bring arms or fury war to high-ish keys over a paladin. I want warrior to have some niche as a melee dps but as far as I can tell ret pal brings comparable damage while bringing a lot of utility to the table. What's up with that

[manic stirrup]

i’m banned from discussing this topic sorry

[minor gust]

Truth is you can only bring 3 DPS to a key

[flat willow]

nothing, dps warriors aren't super good in m+

[olive nest]

We are the Zug class and we need to do atleast 10-15% more zug to be meta
(Made up number sounded good)

[minor gust]

Some specs/classes are just gonna be better thats just how it is

[flat willow]

you should compare it to unholy dk instead of paladin tho

man I wish I was an unholy dk

[minor gust]

If your serious about keys playing something else or find people to play with that don't care your a warrior

[olive nest]

Udk eating good right now

[peak jacinth]

Sure-- and the ones that should be "better" are the ones that also don't have an endless list of utility. Ret should never do more damage than Arms. Never.

[olive nest]

Bloodbeast procs go dummy
They’re practically immortal

[ripe field]

My group doesnt care but I dont wanna sandbag the group either

by playing stuff that is flatly worse

[olive nest]

And they bring grips for grouping

[manic stirrup]

you’re not gonna sandbag the group

[olive nest]

Insane value

[minor gust]

Not how the game works

[lean geode]

Have you seen pwar?

[flat willow]

this isn't how the game works, the game works like that

[olive nest]

4***

[minor gust]

So true king

[ripe field]

lool fair

[manic stirrup]

you can do keys 1 maybe 2 levels under max possible with any class outside of extreme situations

[flat willow]

mage has more mobility than you, more utility than you, more defensive cds than you

and more damage than you

[manic stirrup]

blood dk does more damage

[olive nest]

Look at an overall from Nome

Pwar actually pipes

Insane good

[peak jacinth]

no doi. The discussion isn't how it DOES work, but how it SHOULD work.

[manic stirrup]

its been piping for an expensaion and a half straight

[lean geode]

Yoda did 3m in ML yesterday

[manic stirrup]

damage has never been a pwar issue since s4 shadowlands for m+

[fresh spire]

Warrior utility isn't as good as other classes. Damage is a bit behind the meta

Standard warrior things

[ripe field]

:c

[minor gust]

Your not understanding there is what almost 40 diff specs in the game and only 5 can be in a dungeon grp shits not worth balancing like that

[manic stirrup]

i agree but also utility has never been the sole reason you picked a tank for the highest keys

[fresh spire]

Unkillable buff machines

[manic stirrup]

more damage in what capacity?

[flat willow]

what we are trying to tell you is that if you really wanna do high keys on your main

[peak jacinth]

lol It's someone's JOB to insure that spec's are balanced. "Not worth balancing" is a phrase that should never be uttered at Blizzard.

[flat willow]

your main should be a mage

https://x.com/LofiBanshee/status/1878607903579591135

jordan 📊🩵 (@LofiBanshee) on X

Data and Donuts Day 12:

Data:
Dating back to BfA S1, if the season ended today, Mage would have representation in the top 20 keys for the 13th season in a row, per @RaiderIO_WoW leaderboards.

Donut:
Glazed w/ Chocolate Drizzle from Dunkin'.

X · Jan 13, 2025, 1:00 AM

[manic stirrup]

somethibg like assassination rogue will always be insanely efficient prio damage because of how the spec is currently designed

just because something has less utility than a rogue doesnt mean they should do more prio damage

[flat willow]

honestly it's not a bad season to do m+ on dps warrior

we know worse

[ripe field]

Ya keys have felt great. Just feels like I have to sweat my fking face off while ret friend chills

[peak jacinth]

exactly... and then they have a massive utility list on top of it. And when YOU have to run out of puddles, they use their ranged dps abilities... that we don't have. And on and on and on...

[lean geode]

Sweating as col? Just press cleave bud

[flat willow]

press the buttons, man

[ripe field]

Too fury brained, I'm trying

[flat willow]

I mean I get it, one can get jealous of rets not being able to missplay

since the spec plays itself

they should make ret an autobattler

you just move to do the mechanics while the wheelchair class does sparkly spells

[manic stirrup]

go play ret if u want

[flat willow]

I do, sometimes

[minor gust]

Wow has never been perfectly balanced and it never will be. Just not possible especially for M+

[calm isle]

17 DPS specs, gonna be like 10 every tier thats 😢

[smoky kayak]

tbf no buff refreshes duration when it decrements

[ripe field]

the notion of perfect balance in a game is silliness. I suspect that a perfectly balanced game would be boring if it existed. Imbalances are where the fun is at

[smoky kayak]

Whirlwind works the same way

[peak jacinth]

Show me where anyone has ever asked for "perfect." There is a range that any reasonable person would accept-- and we're absolutely not there.

To say nothing of that fact: I would also be more tolerant if it was obvious they were TRYING. And.. it's the opposite.

[calm isle]

It would be nice to get a lil more in the bag though.

[smoky kayak]

except what is "balanced" is a very subject concept which will change from person to person

So not a very good argument

[minor gust]

How is the the game not reasonably balanced right now

[ripe field]

All I'm saying is I'm gonna riot until Sweeping Strikes is taken off the GCD and Thunderclap can apply Rend to more than 5 targets

[lean geode]

IIRC (it's been a few months since I was looking into it) it's which buff event is logged that causes the problemo

[smoky kayak]

modern wow is arguably a lot more balanced than previous versions, but there are also a lot more situations which affect balance

[lean geode]

There are a few flavors of buff events

And the one for 2->1 SD is just weird

[peak jacinth]

It's a good argument in that it's worth having. But 99% of the time, people that aren't good at math just say "it's too hard/impossible. We'll just avoid this discussion."

That's not how you make things better.

[ripe field]

And the game being more tightly balanced I assume makes what would be a small imbalance much more impactful

[smoky kayak]

Idk that I'm particularly good at math, but I am very familiar with the combat system, varied types of encounters, and have been doing this for a long time, so I'm fairly comfortable saying yeah... it's pretty impossible to balance WoW within as small a degree as most power players would like it to be

I mean for one thing, what are we even trying to balance it for? There's a wide variety of raid encounter types, without even getting into more dynamic things like dungeons (in which performance can vary greatly depending on pull size, tempo, the rest of your group, even the key level)

[ripe field]

That and again...I think players have this idea of game balance and that more balance == more fun when that isn't the case.

[smoky kayak]

depends on the player, yeah

[peak jacinth]

Here's why I use that phrase (ignoring the fact I minored in Math, this is a rather entry level fact): Look at the last balancing pass, where we had something that was at 50% (sorry, don't have notes handy), and they nerfed it to 25%.

One is too high. The next is too low. And then... they give up.

This is 99.99999% of EVERYTHING Blizzard does.

What about 30%? What about 35%? What about 33%? What about 33.43971%?

Their absolute refusal to accept the Real Number Line exists is why balance is such a spooky concept in this game. So yes, GOOD BALANCE will NEVER happen... as long as you ignore the Real Number Line exists.

And that's where we are. But that's a pretty pathetic reason to just walk away from this part of the game.

[smoky kayak]

realistically though, most games are not very well balanced, particularly the more complex ones - they're just a lot harder to measure

the somewhat unfortunate reality is that the WoW community has gone to great lengths to create tools to measure performance to such a small degree that we can not only detect small differences in performance... we obsess over them

[hexed snow]

Agreed

[willow coyote]

Can any1 tell me why grim codex is listed as a bis trinket under the mythic+ only content but it sims so horribly? My hero track codex is outdone by champion funhouse lens in all sim scenarios for me

[olive night]

Most games are not well balanced because its almost impossible to have a game fully balanced , a single item being added, nerfed, or changed can complete change the balance of a game.

[ripe field]

Im sure that Blizzard and other large studios have been using algorithmic approaches to balancing for years now. If you are uncertain of this, please check ability scaling values.

These are not numbers that any person simply decided

Cleave scaling 183912.88380% attack power or whatever

[peak jacinth]

And yet, look at ANY patch notes on balance. They are always done in nice, neat, whole-number increments. And while it's SOMETIMES a small number like 5, it tends to be 10, 20, 50, etc.

I could probably count on one hand the number of times they have made non-whole number changes that reflected an actual, mathematical approach toward solving a balance problem.

[hexed snow]

It's time to become a game dev at Blizzard and then get the real understanding as to why

[dusty depot]

Just have an alt of each spec

[ripe field]

That is interesting. I dunno 🤷‍♂️ . I'm old gamer and I recall seeing a shift over the years with regards to balance and it became clear at a point that the values arent people number crunching but something more complex goign on behind the scenes

[faint sparrow]

Maybe a stupid question but whats the easiest way to see stacks like marked for execution, sudden death etc? Is there a WA?

[hexed snow]

https://wago.io/9n9GqeQ6-

Click when Kacihng and dont think about it

[peak jacinth]

To truly understand what balance means, look at Starcraft (their own game!).

They measure time in SC in a unit called "ticks." (it's some fraction of a second) It takes so many "ticks" to build such-n-such building. So many "ticks" to build a unit, and upgrade... anything.

I will NEVER forget one of the patch notes detailed how making one certain building went from 100 ticks ... to 103 ticks.

THAT is how you achieve balance.

[ripe field]

I'm familiar with server tick-rate. To Archmitrios' point, I don't think the WoW community and SC community are comparable.

Different expectations with regards to balance

[shadow ibex]

They also move at a snails pace

The fact dance of seat spiteful and tom even exist is emberassing

[peak jacinth]

I would accept the "different games" point, but not the more general argument about "balance", in the general sense; and how ONLY using large, whole-number will ever achieve that goal.

[ripe field]

You dont have ultra casual SC players that like to farm and collect mounts and ass blast a delve with no concern

At least that's my impression

[shadow ibex]

Classes have entire end nodes that are absolutely dog ass

[ripe field]

I'm not versed enough to really comment but yeah at a glance surely whatever their balance goals are they would be better achieved with smaller changes

but idk

its possible that by the time we get the patch notes theyve done a bunch of internal BS that shows that these whole numbers are close enough or some such

[minor gust]

Leave it to Schrodinger to come in and bring up spiteful and Tom while this guy is crashing out about balance because a ret pally did more damage than him

[peak jacinth]

Except we see in the final version (the one we're playing) that it's not.

[smoky kayak]

yeah this conversation is going nowhere lmao

[minor gust]

Lol

[ripe field]

Apologies i'll scoot

[smoky kayak]

guy starts talking about SC tick rate as if it has jack all to do with wow

[peak jacinth]

The comparison seems obvious. It's about whole-number changes and how they don't help balance.

[smoky kayak]

except what you're failing to recognize is that 100 -> 103 is +3%, which is exactly the same kind of tuning WoW does

[minor gust]

The tuning notes for warrior today will be buffing bladestorm by 12.4567%

[peak jacinth]

The WoW comparison would be: if 100 was too low, WoW would raise it to 125. Which is too high. So they nerf it to 75... which is too low.

They then WALK AWAY FROM IT... and everyone just exclaims "balnc is to herd!"

That's WRONG.

[hexed snow]

Me
Developer at game company
See numbers low
Increase value by *3
Go and get lunch
Warrior discord crashing out over why I'm lazy

[ripe field]

lmao

[peak jacinth]

No, again-- because they almost NEVER do balance changes in even the 5% range. Almost all are 10-20% and more. And then it's never 3%... it's 5%.

WoW just doesn't use "all the numbers." And so yes.. balance is hard! lol

[smoky kayak]

you think that using round numbers, which are objectively easier to work with, makes for worse balancing, when the reality is that the numbers are just a lot more complex - if you're ever actually looked at the raw AP coeficients, they're like "12.2394995% AP"

yes they do

they literally do 3% and 5% tuning changes all the time

[manic stirrup]

literally more often than 10 or 15

if i had to guess

[smoky kayak]

for awhile it was the predictable standard

[manic stirrup]

the amount of 3% aura nerfs and buffs are so common

[peak jacinth]

I don't care if it's "easy." Someone is getting paid 8 hours a day to MAKE THIS WORK! You think I don't do some variation on that as an Engineer??? lol

[noble oxide]

Aura buffs are usually 3-5%

[shadow ibex]

These are the same devs who got warbringer and warbreaker mixed up for like 1.2 exacps

[manic stirrup]

what are you even crashing out about

ret paladin?

[dusty depot]

Larger numbers are usually for specific abilities

[noble oxide]

Ability specific buffs are much higher

[manic stirrup]

its been consistently good for a while

[smoky kayak]

it just depends on what they're adjusting, an individual spell being adjusted by 3-5% isn't going to have any impact because WoW is a game of very large numbers, whereas StarCraft very much is not

[manic stirrup]

theyre not more or less good this patch

[smoky kayak]

WoW is infinitely more complex than StarCraft lol

[minor gust]

Ret pally did more dmg than him and has a brez just not fair

[peak jacinth]

I addressed this.

[smoky kayak]

I don't care

[manic stirrup]

give warrior a shout lust

fixes everything!!!

[dusty depot]

Their ST seems significantly better now than before in dungeons (even if it's crap in raids)

[manic stirrup]

its really not though

its a bit better but significant is an overstatement

[sweet crest]

Warrior gating buffs?

[hexed snow]

Give every class lust
Give every class invis
Give every class AoE stun
Give every class soothe
Etc

[manic stirrup]

arms is better than it was last patch

no

[hexed snow]

Now we are balanced

[shadow ibex]

That's a low bar lol

[manic stirrup]

homogenization isnt fun

and can make for even less balance

[peak jacinth]

If you don't care when arguments are addressed, settled, and discussion can continue, then why bother? You're just doing what everone else is doing "meh.. it's too hard. It's close enough."

Glad you're ok with that. I would be fired from my job before the end of the day if that was my approach.

[smoky kayak]

nobody is saying WoW is perfectly well balanced, or even necessarily well balanced (that's very subjective), but it is something they constantly iterate on... even if they'll never do it enough to please some people

the real issue is just that any change to one thing in WoW affects 4 or 5 other things; can't change PvE without changing PvP, cant change raid without affecting M+, and so on

[sweet crest]

@smoky kayak i did acreefr for back and waist it was a mistaick?

[dusty depot]

Why not just make aura buffs that only affect mythic dungeons for example?

[smoky kayak]

which becomes even more complicated when we're talking about the high end vs the low end, since power users tend to create rotations that were not ever really designed for

[dusty depot]

That's what they do with pvp basically

[manic stirrup]

for how many specs and classes there are with different damage profiles, wow is very well balanced

[peak jacinth]

Well now you just added a bunch of OTHER new arguments.

It's enough to say: it's been a good talk so far. I'm glad to have reviewed some points with you. Hopefully it can continue to be a productive discussion in the future. Thanks all. 😉

[smoky kayak]

without wanting to speak for them, the most obvious reason would be that it further confuses the game when spells work differently in different facets of the game; like a lot of things, it may be "better" for the power users, but it's a lot more confusing for the (many more) general players

[minor gust]

For what wow is currently it is pretty well balanced

[smoky kayak]

I wasn't making an argument to anything, I was making a generalized statement, but thanks

[peak jacinth]

I meant bringing the PvP-PvE part into it. That's ... yeahno... +walks away slowly+ lol

[smoky kayak]

it wasn't even a response to you lol

[peak jacinth]

Maybe not. But it does factor into what I'm talking about. 🙂

[smoky kayak]

but if you don't think it's an important facet of balance, you're gonna be in for a rude awakening

[lean geode]

That's probably fine, maybe not the best right now but you can always craft new pieces or recraft existing ones later

[smoky kayak]

just like the power user vs the casual one

[dusty depot]

What it feels like to play warrior

[slow saddle]

I mean we are complaining bout 5-10% outlier dmg

Some is ofc opness

Some is better suited to encounters

Then theres fm fuck fm

[peak jacinth]

I'm saying it DOES. But I was trying to focus on one thing at a time.

[smoky kayak]

well you can't

you gotta see the whole picture

for example, anyone who thinks Arms Warrior was built with the idea that players would ignore Execute except for under three hyper specific conditions is kidding themselves

or the bloodthirst kaching shit

the more we do stuff like that, whether it's optimal or not, it deviates from the intended balance

now multiply that across all the different classes, specs, hero classes, talent builds, combat environments, throw in cantrips and gear scaling for good measure

[sweet crest]

Btw i see a lot ppl going with diffrent build for keys .

[smoky kayak]

the raw number of permutations alone is staggering

[chilly isle]

Nobody is getting paid 8 hours a day to make this work. There isnt a person working a Blizzard with their singular purpose to balance warriors.

[lean geode]

Would your idea of shorter-duration, lower-stack jugg meaningfully affect exe prio above 35%? It'd still be below MS and Opp or 2charge OP as long as you're not risking losing an SD proc, no?

assuming no 3xMFE*

[calm isle]

I just think the idea that developers are throwing their collective hands up saying "too hard" is silly.
It is a game that is constantly developing new patches and requires manpower in other spots than class balance at the tippy top of M+ metas

[peak jacinth]

OVERALL game balance, of which, Arms is a subset. You're right, there isn't "a person." It's a TEAM.

[smoky kayak]

even if they were, it's a staggeringly large scale job; as one of the people who does this kind of thing as an enthusiast, I can tell you that 8 hours a day still wouldn't be nearly enough time

[chilly isle]

Well, 8 hours a day for 6 months is a lot of time

[smoky kayak]

if yall had any idea the number of raw man hours that went into creating effective APL alone, you'd choke

[minor gust]

Wow isn't stagnant it's constantly changing

[smoky kayak]

and that's just coopting the stuff they already made for a single game type (or two, if we include middling support for M+)

[minor gust]

So balance needs to constantly keep up

[smoky kayak]

now think about having to make it in the first place, not to mention balancing it against every other permutation in the game

I really don't think many people have an appreciation for how insanely complex WoW combat is

[chilly isle]

I appreciate how complex it is. And getting everything be balanced is a ton of very hard work.

What i dont understand is how there can still be a two tier class system in WoW. Some specs do cleave from their ST target and some spec have to choose between doing aoe or single target. And ST with cleave is almost always better.

You would assume that after this many years developing this game they would have managed to fix this.

There is a reason arcane mage, fire mage and fury warrior are almost always good

And why something like balance druid is very rarely good

I can fix fire mage imbalance in two sentences:

Create a choice node where fire mages pick between spreading ignites or ignites dealing significantly more damage. Then nerf fire mage single target until the "significantly more damage" node keeps their ST the same as it was prior to the node being added.

That would force fire mages to either deal the amount of ST they do now, or sacrifice some of it to cleave.

Presto manifesto problem solved.

[flat willow]

you forgot something

mage is the best class in the game and it will not sacrifice ST for Aoe

bro thinks he can tell the mages how the game works

[shadow ibex]

These are the same devs who confused warbringer and warbreaker for 1.2 expacs

[flat willow]

even blizzard can't do that

[olive nest]

I just log in an expect to see massive numbers on my screen

Don’t give a shit about balance being fair if my number isn’t the biggest

[flat willow]

exactly

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/547884409609781321/1292987872227627018/image.png?ex=67de9b0b&is=67dd498b&hm=45599956fa558715822301d90bb697dad543f03ed8751c697e46716dcc2c67d6&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[olive nest]

(With this in mind now you see why “perfect balance” is impossible)

[flat willow]

my biggest reaper's mark before it got nerfed

[shadow ibex]

Just look at the state of BS

[peak jacinth]

And for the billionith time: no one is asking for "perfect balance."

[shadow ibex]

They are just playing it by ear patch to patch

[minor gust]

Had to remove warbringer so it doesn't happen again

[olive nest]

Explain to the class exactly what you’re looking for

[flat willow]

honestly I think you wanna play mage, you'll always feel the game is perfectly balanced

(around you)

[olive night]

they just need to give current arms warriors condemn

[minor gust]

There must always be a good mage spec my son

[flat willow]

and I don't blame you, everyone wishes they were a mage but we aren't all lucky enough to have magic

[chilly isle]

for my brain to not hurt when im looking at the balance in the game with the least bit of scrutiny

[ripe field]

i want magic sword

[flat willow]

I want frostmourne too

[olive night]

it could be worse, you could be playing Feral in PvE

[chilly isle]

Like, if they were to give another class a bloodlust and they give it to paladins

That would hurt my brain

I dont want that

I want them to give it to a class that needs utility

[ripe field]

Feral seems a bit of an anomalie

[dusty depot]

Well, they're great right now at least

[ripe field]

They aren't popular in low keys but crush in high keys and have significant popularity in high key

[flat willow]

that was pretty funny when they gave battle rez to paladin I'll give you that

[olive nest]

You guys don’t realize that they make so much more effort balancing now than the past. We would go entire tiers with the exact same balance even when shit was completely broken

[peak jacinth]

Respectfully: scroll up. I just spent the last 20-30mins outlining it.

We're at the point now where people are just going to hyperfocus on semantics to just ignore the general discussion.

Better to just table it for now, maybe we can talk more later.

But I didn't, and no rational person ever would, ask for "perfect balance."

[ripe field]

Many of the top keys done rn are Guardian Druid, Feral Druid. Feral is eating good

[chilly isle]

Yes they put in more effort now than before. But that doesnt mean i cant still want more.

[shadow ibex]

I don't think they do

[dusty depot]

Best balance was vanilla when I did 30% more dps than other classes as warrior

[chilly isle]

"We got rid of most of your cancer, so you cant really expect us to keep going to remove all of it"

[flat willow]

yeah but on the other hand arms warrior ate like 5 nerfs in season 1 because blizzard wanted to nerf fury for overperforming in a raid perfectly designed for it

[minor gust]

More than that

[flat willow]

(other hand/arms, see what I did?)

[ripe field]

Lets be clear though, Arms can pump right now.

The damage is far from bad. Quite big number pumper

[olive nest]

I would have assumed summarizing your wants or expectations into a single text box in less than 30 seconds wouldn’t have been an issue. respectfully

[shadow ibex]

If they tried to balance I wouldn't have 3 dead choice nodes

[ripe field]

And is top tier in Raid.

[sacred ore]

Anyone waiting for the Collosus arms nerf when they try to nerf prot warrior damage?

[ripe field]

Pretty good spot to be in imo

[chilly isle]

im still waiting for the fury nerf since Echo brought 2 of them to mythic Gallywix

[ripe field]

Okay

Lets talk about that pls

[flat willow]

I hope they dont nerf prot when everyone plays dh

[ripe field]

Arms has been the hotness for weeks now partly because of their execute damage

And yet Fury war is clocking in higher than Arms on Gally

[olive nest]

Yes they should balance around class popularity

[chilly isle]

Fury is clocking in higher than Arms on almost all the bosses

[olive nest]

Not numbers

[chilly isle]

Arms is the hotness because of m+

[ripe field]

I'm not arguing that one thing or another should be balanced due to popularity

[olive night]

Arms feels really bad on Stix i cant explain it. All the other fights seem good

[ripe field]

I simply mean that the narrative for weeks now is that Arms is super cool because of a really strong execute phase and single target dam

and yet Fury is putting up bigger numbers

[flat willow]

All the highest keys have dh tank in them so their numbers cant be that bad

But maybe dh players are just better

Who knows

[olive nest]

They are tanky, buff the wizards, have great mob control

Ez pick for M+

Everytime

[chilly isle]

Im looking forward to seeing some public logs on mythic Mug'Zee

Because im expecting arms execute to get beaten by fire mages

[ripe field]

I keep pretty close tabs on Lorrgs and unless something has changed, Arms wins out on several fights

[flat willow]

Since prot warrior arent as tanky, dont have such mob control and dont buff wizards

[ripe field]

Not by a huge margin but still 5% is 5%

[flat willow]

Maybe they can keep the damage

[minor gust]

Execute dmg only matters if execute phase matters which is not the case most of the time.

[chilly isle]

Last time i checked it was only Cauldron of Carnage

[ripe field]

Apologies if im saying wrong things, lemme check

[dapper harness]

do people not just play the spec that is best suited for the fight?

[chilly isle]

some do some dont

[ripe field]

Its not so simple. If we're talking margins of 3-6% then player familiarity with the class is very important in deciding which

[dapper harness]

i'm swapping from rogue main, but gearing was close enough with rogue, just played what was optimal for a given fight

[peak jacinth]

100% no. But then again, I'm only a Heroic player who dabbles in Mythic (4/8). I would quit this game if it meant I HAD to play Fury, or any other spec I didn't find fun.

I have different ARMS builds for different bosses. But I'm still playing ARMS ... no matter what. F Fury.

[ripe field]

Arms has a pretty significant advantage in Mugzee

[chilly isle]

you are probably looking at heroic

i was talking mythic

[olive night]

how does arms have an advantage on mugzee? (just curious)

[chilly isle]

the last 40% of the fight are the most important

and hardest

so execute dmg becomes more vaulable

[dapper harness]

cuz both heads are active

[olive night]

same goes with sprocket no? but fury still beats arms on sprocket mythic

[chilly isle]

sprocket isnt as hard

if there was an execute phase on the first boss of the raid, it would be technically better to play an arms warrior but it wouldnt matter

since the boss is pretty easy

also i think Mug'Zee execute phase is more of a dps check than Sprocketmonger, but i could be wrong

[minor gust]

After the sprocket nerfs it's not much of a DPS check

[chilly isle]

not sure how tight the enrage is on sprocket

my guild just started progressing sprocket yesterday

[olive night]

my guild can barely do one armed bandit heroic so will be a while before we do mythic

[ripe field]

Oh I'm not sure of specifically why. Just looking at top logs Fury ~2.260 mil and Arms ~2.6 mil

[olive night]

are you looking at heroic?

there isnt any public logs for mythic so just curious

[ripe field]

https://lorrgs.io/

Ye Heroic

There are Mythic logs but obviously far fewer. Up to Lockenstock

[sharp wyvern]

arms gets lust during execute which is probably why arms does better

*on mugzee

[olive nest]

Lust pi 10 stack 4p

[serene thicket]

Quick Q that I didn’t see an answer for in search. When are we thunderclapping? I was doing charge -> cleave -> thunderclap then rest of opener but now I switched after seeing critcake do charge -> sweeping strikes while charging -> mortal strike.

[olive nest]

Hollyyy

[olive night]

whos giving PI to an arms warrior

[olive nest]

[tacit crystal]

people who play with good warriors

[ripe field]

Please stop I can only be so turned on

[olive night]

slap that on the guild destro lock

[tacit crystal]

@reef glade taking all my pi's

[olive nest]

Just be homies with the spriest

Ez

All the PIs

[dawn prairie]

im the bestest of homies with my priest

we been running keys like its nothing

[ripe field]

for real arms execute phase looks funny

One execute animation looks cool

15 execute animations at hyper speed

looks silly

[olive night]

My guilds using PI on the ele shaman

[ripe field]

is good

[storm prism]

To be fair, if they run 2 minute ascendance PI is super strong on them

[tacit crystal]

thats only good if the fight doesnt last 3 minutes

[ripe field]

probably a common resource but in case

[tacit crystal]

lol

[ripe field]

https://bloodmallet.com/chart/power_infusion

[olive night]

yeah my guilds a lot more casual though

[ripe field]

Its bizarre how little Fury benefits from PI considering how much they like to stack Haste

[olive night]

haste has DR though no?

gets to a point where it means less and less

[ripe field]

Above 20,000 or so iirc

[dusty depot]

That's usually the mastery levels as fury

[ripe field]

Ya its very common to go over that value with Cyrce's proc and innate haste buffs

[dusty depot]

Not haste

[tacit crystal]

pi is % so it doesnt give stats

it gives raw %

[ripe field]

Ye I was referring to where diminishing returns starts.

There's a cool addon called TrueStatValues that gives a nice UI showing what you're gaining and if at the point of diminishing returns, how much you're being clamped by

[olive night]

might have a look at that

[tacit crystal]

i mean that doesnt matter

[peak jacinth]

100% recommend

[tacit crystal]

you should just use the robot

[ripe field]

it can be difficult to project the value of knowledge. Use the robot, but understand the underlying system so you aren't just blindly doing what robot says

[tacit crystal]

no

you blindly listen to the robot

if a stat is dr'd that doesnt matter if its more damage

[ripe field]

Im giving you sound advice and not interested in discussing further.

[shadow ibex]

Pretty sure true stat values is operating on outdated information

Blizzard has made a single blue post about diminishing returns with stats, when they were reintroduced in SL

In that post they gave examples of the DR. Since then they have never made a statement on when DRs kick in or how potent those DRs are. It's guesswork at best p sure.

[teal fossil]

Well you can just do the math

And assuming true state value is updated it should be fine

[shadow ibex]

True

I only assumed it was outdated cuz I swear on the addon page I saw numbers that were just the same from blizzards own blue post but again that was in like SL beta

[peak jacinth]

I first started using it in DF S3. And it's been updated since then. I didn't notice if it was updated "with new data" for tWW, but the app itself has been updated.

[proud remnant]

any ideas why my house of cards avatar macro desyncs alot?

#showtooltip
/cast Avatar
/use House of Cards

by the time avatar comes back up its off by a several seconds