arms

[thick kelp]

i think cleave is jst overkill ngl

[midnight mural]

i dno

[thick kelp]

Try dance of D

xdd

[boreal quartz]

on sark i ran cleave

but it was less loss back then

[thick kelp]

Was full st gamer on sarka(played wb)

Honestly bro dance of death has some moments i feel in nxt raid

[boreal quartz]

i mean any pad

fury just fucking INHALES

[thick kelp]

Good thing im guilds only brown as of rn

[midnight mural]

dat OF

[boreal quartz]

every single spear set

dies in 3 seconds

i was like "wtf why are they deleting spears so fast"

but i was stealing my own pad

my bs did like nothing

[thick kelp]

[boreal quartz]

ok but i sleep now good night lads

[midnight mural]

gn king

[thick kelp]

gn padder

[zealous pivot]

man in m+ build is it really worth to wait for 2x ep? i feel like like im losing entire MS waiting for resource

when i can usually keep op exe op ms going with no issues

[ornate eagle]

meanwhile our spear dmg

and then you check overall boss dmg

[lethal acorn]

No, for aoe it's better to weave in like you said in the next line

[zealous pivot]

for bosses in aoe build u mean right?

idk if i even hit execute in aoe

i probably do subconciously

[lethal acorn]

I can show you what I take for aoe

I do a hybrid

[zealous pivot]

ive seen the builds

my personal fave is EB

variant

highrolling 5 cleaves is W

but sure send it

[lethal acorn]

I think running finishing blows is better than battlelord as long as you also take eb https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eNmdtNTuzkA4xWPCuFMmzy

My personal changes are sidearm over barbaric training, spiteful serenity over anger management, and ISS over collateral damage if aoe

I don't take Skullsplitter unless it's for pure single target since I can replace WW as it's a dead button

Single target build for comparison https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bneJ9rjQszBczduMpSDBaC

I don't take FB or EB here since I have to take everything on the bottom right+skullsplitter

Both of my builds are 1/2 for Deft, which feels like the minimum for reliable tactician procs

[uncut pasture]

i haven't seen Spiteful Serenity in a while, is that for the longer In For The Kill? even with that i feel like you're still losing value from Ravager and the Unhinged cdr part of Anger Management

[lethal acorn]

Yeah when I said personal changes I meant like what I enjoy playing over viability

AM is the stronger build, I'm simply a spiteful enjoyer

[uncut pasture]

understandable and based

[vocal solar]

hey anyone have the excel with warrior s4 sims?

wanted to check sth ik its not relevant at all

[latent moss]

i have NO clue how accurate this is

idk idk when was the last time it got updated

[vocal solar]

❤️

[bold granite]

do we really gotta charge weave

this shit is wack

[outer holly]

I think it does at least show some acknowledgement from blizz in regards to the often quoted cosmetic ragebar issue

It's sucks right now tho

[bold granite]

what year is it

[wide brook]

@bold granite whatchu talkin bout johnny

[tall crypt]

charge weave? what we leap out then charge in for rage lol ?

[dire hinge]

Step out at max melee range and charge back in yeah

Optimally between melee swings

[bold granite]

leap charge is cool and chill

and been a thing forever

[bold granite]

this

[tall crypt]

damn

is the new prepatch changes reflected in the beta as well rn?

[latent moss]

u can leap but

u can just walk out

start walking out

at the edge

press ur button

and charge back

takes like 10 minutes to learn perfectly

[civic isle]

D👏I👏V👏E👏R👏S👏I👏T👏Y

[dull siren]

Don't need diversity

[civic isle]

😍

Gnome name extreme S tier.

[rustic marsh]

yea

[dull siren]

Level them!

[rustic marsh]

Yea, thats the plan 😄

[karmic wraith]

this what you guys are seeing in M+?

feel like I'm stomping everyone erlse

in every dungeon I do

[full mantle]

Warrior = Masterclass 🙂 (since 2002)

[trim niche]

Quick warm up key

[civic isle]

🫡

[sharp flame]

been beating a few 520+ dps as Arms so I feel ya

as 506

except Rets

.>

[slow saddle]

and dks

[dry frost]

Sims broken rn?

Like I know it says several specs are nonfuntional but is arms one of them?

[thick kelp]

Arms shld work well enough

[boreal quartz]

It works but you need to manually select talents iirc

(or i need to update my simc addon lmao)

[thick kelp]

You can import from wowhead the talent string and paste it into your own simc over the one from ingame dump

I think

[silk spade]

lmao

what

[silk spade]

probably

[gaunt owl]

Its blizzard fault

[honest girder]

A decent paladin can compete, frost DKs are nuts and ele shaman is easily competitive.

Arms still edges them tho I think atleast in ST, but I am playing hybrid

[zealous pivot]

how are u simming 640 with 10% corrupting rage uptime i havent seen anyone elses even break 600

[boreal quartz]

Dslice

Not st

[zealous pivot]

ohh lmao

almost lost my shit

[boreal quartz]

He's running long cs is quit the cooked setup

And no SR

[boreal quartz]

Jesus Christ

That's a cook

[zealous pivot]

lol

i almost got baited so hard

bout to throw my warrior knowledge out the window

[wary raft]

Time to run spiteful serenity

[dapper hemlock]

Anyone helping to check logs for cataclysm?

[thick kelp]

https://discord.gg/RbCZJtw

For classic cata

[rancid solstice]

Man I hope iftk is the play for the foreseeable future. Forgot how much fun it makes execute window

[thick kelp]

Unless they buff Tom by ridicilous amount then yes

[terse mist]

Back at it again after a long 😤. How’s arms looking for pushing keys next season?

[boreal quartz]

Lemme check my crystal ball

🔮

the ball says "concentrate harder and try again"

[gilded stump]

You'll be sitting at the upgrade vendors begging for +2 keys invite

[olive nest]

[terse mist]

😭😭😭

[wanton sierra]

hey fellow arms, long time no see!

i was all about classic era, hardcore, sod... havin a blast, not playing retail since season 3

im back! i hear ppl saying that arms colossus feels VERY GOOD

so we play slayer or colossus? by the fun of it ill be colossus ❤️ quite liked the talent that increases our size! hahahaha

[boreal quartz]

It does not feel good!

Execute is DOGSHIT!

[boreal quartz]

Both tbh

Slayer is a bit better in execute iirc

[wanton sierra]

even fully built? i mean jugg and all those far nodes

oh god i just read your namme

[boreal quartz]

In a 5 min sim it takes 3 mins to reach execute and then another 40 seconds to stack it

[wanton sierra]

whhat they did with our juggernought?!

[boreal quartz]

Nothing

The issue is jank rage tuning

Either execute spends less or you get more

But it's subjective some may enjoy this

I recommend trying it out yourself

[wanton sierra]

hmm i logged and i noticed that we dont swim on rage anymore... i rahter not swimming on rage tbh

[boreal quartz]

Go on a dummy in execute

Weird experience

[wanton sierra]

i see... i have some muscle memories and i was rotatin all wrong, specially after playin classic era xD

damn, now our unhinched procs many mortal strikes!

[boreal quartz]

Ravager too

[wanton sierra]

ravager is not distant with bladestorm on the dmg

miss old sks xD

[boreal quartz]

New sks cool with 45 sec roar

[wanton sierra]

does it affects roar dots too ? it was only ddw and rend

[boreal quartz]

Roar buffs dots while active

[wanton sierra]

i feel i got alot to learn!

[olive nest]

Slam slam slam moments

[boreal quartz]

The wowhead post explains most changes

[wanton sierra]

there is an hero talent node that buffs our dots with might staccks... that one is big

[boreal quartz]

That as well

[rare kite]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1046046500578406479/1265022442599088192/makesweet-volebs.gif

[wanton sierra]

i liked colossus more than slayer ^^ hope its good

[olive nest]

Think right now colossus is better for arms on beta

[spark mango]

i'm having fun with exihilarting blows instead of 1 point in bloodborne

ravager unhinged also resets ms

the burst can be crazy

[low elk]

man collateral damage is so fun rn

freaking cleave crits for over a million

[gaunt owl]

they just give big crit and people are happy

[olive nest]

When your demolish gets parried

[rare kite]

can't wait for someone to post a clip of cs parry into demolish parry

[olive nest]

O M G

I literally never thought of this

And it totally will happen

[gaunt owl]

if that shit do happen

i will smash the keyboard so hard

and come in here to slur and get permabanned to touch grass forever

[olive nest]

[ebon fern]

Can we just get rid of parry/dodge in pve?

[latent moss]

no

adds texture

to melee

gameplay

[ebon fern]

It doesn't though

[gaunt owl]

no
adds texture
to melee
gameplay

its such a white people thing

texture

[boreal quartz]

no
adds texture
to melee
gameplay

[ebon fern]

This is definitely a reddit post or something

[boreal quartz]

It's what the devs said

It adds texture

[latent moss]

no
adds texture
to melee
gameplay

[olive nest]

no
adds texture
to melee
gameplay

[ebon fern]

Oh i see

That's just a word salad

It doesn't add to anything aside annoyances

If that's the case then might as well add hit back right? Why stop at parry/dodge

I mean it adds "texture" afterall, right?

[minor gust]

no
adds texture
to melee
gameplay

[gaunt owl]

no
adds texture
to melee
gameplay

[minor gust]

the legend Morgan Day strikes again

[daring heron]

texture over taste

[rare kite]

FUIYOH

[dry frost]

I love getting my Kingsbane and Colossus smash and my Whirlwind parried!!!!!!!!

[olive nest]

Fuck ureself in your own house!?

That was probably Morgan’s thoughts when he announced parry staying for added texture

[gaunt owl]

https://tenor.com/view/uncle-roger-fuiyoh-gif-22798929

[nimble acorn]

crits add too much rng to my game, lets remove those too

[gaunt owl]

dont give blizzard any funny idea now

[sinful phoenix]

How is arms doing compared to fury? Dont want to end up being pidgeonholed into fury only

[minor gust]

New stat when

I want a new stat

[ornate eagle]

Arms pumps

Fury pumps

Pick your favourite flavour

[lunar vessel]

I thought we wanted texture
I can't keep up

[ornate eagle]

Texture is important

And arms has more texture and flavour

Fury is the bland tofu type

Arms is a rich steak

[visual fern]

Arms is more like

Surprise blindfolded omakase

[ornate eagle]

I will NOT hear otherwise

[visual fern]

It's rich, and full of texture

But you don't know if it'll resonate with you or not

[minor gust]

damn

you couldnt actually describe that feeling any better

[visual fern]

[opal folio]

The parry definitely resonates

[crisp crane]

imagine that is so big.. or its getting nerfed like the other

[ornate eagle]

Looks goofy at that size

[jade hearth]

Isn’t that also a one hander?

[minor gust]

if thats a 2h version of the sword then I think its perfectly fine

[ornate eagle]

The hilt is too short

For a 2h

It literally just looks like an oversized 1h

[gaunt owl]

thats just a recolor of Quel'dasar or something like this no ?

[ornate eagle]

Correct

The one we already have

[minor gust]

could just be the angle but yeah the hilt does look like a 1h hilt

[visual fern]

I'm on my way to becoming a real NYC foodie

[latent moss]

garm on a streak today

[olive nest]

goofy ahh looking sword

[latent hull]

Gfurious needs a comeback

[latent moss]

he will singehandedly fix this spec

[visual fern]

A lovely dream....

....but only a dream

[latent hull]

@latent moss why do u think arms will get reworked at all

[visual fern]

Because the spec currently is completely lost

No direction

No real gameplay loop other than

[rare kite]

idk how to explain even explain why it feels clunky? it just does, someone that's not as can probably do it

[tidal wraith]

Im ok with an arms rework since they gave everyone else MS effects give us BIG reduce max health so we alone counter fortified.

https://tenor.com/view/hahahaha-gif-27342590

[visual fern]

Whatever best helps communicate the sentiment that there currently is no real
Identity/gameplay loop/gimmick for arms

Other than just "Mortal Strike"

And it's a slotmachine mortal strike at that

Like when you think of fury gameplay - what comes to mind?

Or fire mage

Or FDK

(Waiting for answer, not rhetorical)

[tidal wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/faceroll-keyboard-cant-even-tech-support-gif-20234453

[rare kite]

fury i think of fast paced gameplay, aoe machine. genuinely feel like a berserker

[visual fern]

Not aesthetic

Like

Fire mage = combustion into 1 target / ignite aoe

FDK = pillar / breath

Fury = AoE burst / sustained cleave / rampage centric

Arms = ms and.....

[tidal wraith]

TBF breath is dead AF

[rare kite]

ah ye, fdk i legit only think about breath and some cleave with dnd

[visual fern]

That's tuning, not design

The gameplay gimmick is still there

[olive nest]

https://tenor.com/view/face-keyboard-slam-angry-rage-gif-5303652

[tidal wraith]

Nah breath is bad design for mythic and most raid encounters

[olive nest]

That’s arms gameplay after MS goes on cd ^

[visual fern]

But it is something you play around - no?

Whether or not it is badly designed for mythic + / raid

[rare kite]

supposed to be execute but ngl i don't even think about that anymore

[visual fern]

Just looking at the class

[tidal wraith]

not really you dont take breath unless the boss is going to stand there

I just got done playing fdk through all of DF

it was the most painful expansion i ever played

[visual fern]

You're applying it to a scenario

I'm saying just look at the spec in vacuum

[tidal wraith]

EVERY SCENARIO IS BAD FOR BREATH

[visual fern]

[snow flame]

thats not true

[visual fern]

How do I word this

[tidal wraith]

the only scenario is when something stands still

[visual fern]

When you say FDK to someone who doesn't play FDK

What do they think

What comes to mind

[tidal wraith]

Pillar

pillar is 100% better

[visual fern]

"Oh yeah breath, oh yeah pillar, oh yeah Cindy"

[tidal wraith]

Breath is terrible even the ones that still play it hate it

[visual fern]

Unholy is disease/sores/army

Arms is
MS and ?

[snow flame]

I think what garms is trying to say is

[old urchin]

Oblit. Oblit. Oblit.

[snow flame]

regardless if it sucks

its an identity

[tidal wraith]

its not though when no one plays it

its a meme at this point

[visual fern]

You're telling me if they buffed breath by 500% tomorrow

They wouldn't play it?

[tidal wraith]

the identity is now pillar and oblit

[snow flame]

gurantee RWF would be playing breathe if it was good

[tidal wraith]

bruh its not about the damage

[visual fern]

That's exactly what I'm saying

[tidal wraith]

its about how mythic plus works

and most raid encounters

[visual fern]

You're saying breath sucks because pillar and oblit are better

That's a damage point

[tidal wraith]

NO

holy shit bro

its how the game is made

breath is a game design from mop

[rare kite]

a spell can be garbage and still be iconic, i don't play fdk but when i think about fdk i think about breath and the giant ass frost dragon

[visual fern]

Okay forget FDK

This example is missing the point

[tidal wraith]

Breath is terribly designed

for modern wow

[visual fern]

Arms identity was (since I've played wow - legion)
Execute / 2T / Big MS

That's what people would think of when they pictured arms

True?

[snow flame]

uh add avatar

and then yeah

[latent moss]

arms should be hard hitter, bleedmaster, tactical

[tidal wraith]

Avatar has become a staple for all warriors but yeah

[visual fern]

What is arms currently

[latent moss]

hard hitter

on beta

[visual fern]

RNG layered MS multipliers and?

[latent moss]

nothing

just ms multipliers

[visual fern]

There's nothing to play around

[latent moss]

boring rotation

[teal tide]

boring

[visual fern]

No matter how badly designed (breath)

[latent moss]

complete lack of direction on arms

[snow flame]

don't forget we get to play around a parried cs

[visual fern]

Or how badly tuned (old sv/ww)

They still have their gimmick

Arms doens't have one currently

[latent moss]

old sv wasnt bad

i played it

[teal tide]

@visual fern we return to Sanctum arms, thoughts?

[visual fern]

I just remember pre SOFO sv

[latent moss]

pre sofo was

...

[tidal wraith]

bro and im saying go play breath on fdk and tell me that feels ANY better

[latent moss]

real

it does if u can keep it up

it feels insane if u can keep it up

[tidal wraith]

you still can but you would mistaken for thinking that is identity

[visual fern]

Bro ight

[latent moss]

fdk on primal council in s1

[visual fern]

Forget FDK

S2M Spriest

Happy?

Same shit

[snow flame]

Or fire mage

[visual fern]

Voidform

Spriest gimmick

[tidal wraith]

the bosses all stand still and stack

in council

[visual fern]

Yah forget FDK bro

Using voidform as my exampl.e point

Similar function for the gimmick

Upkeep a draining resource

That's the gimmick

[latent moss]

same with necro banner in 9.2 for warriors

high uptime = its insane

if u cant kepe it up its bad

thats the gimmick

[teal tide]

necro warrior was beyond gimmick though

[latent moss]

how

[snow flame]

I think Unholy is peak idenetity and class immersion while having cool looking cds

[teal tide]

they nerfed that shit before it went live

[latent moss]

it was literally breath but u spent rage instead of rp

yeah cause of xeos

[visual fern]

Fury's gimmick is build and dump rampages + iconic frontloaded burst and ww cleave

Doesn't matter how it's tuned

[latent moss]

and fast hectic gameplay

[long beacon]

gimmick is the wrong word my son lol

[visual fern]

That gameplay loop is still there

Yah that's why I often italicize

Idk the right word/phrase for it

[teal tide]

identity

[latent moss]

i realized this mid df

when i played classic and legion pserver

arms changes its identtiy

every expac

its funny

how clueless they are with the spec

unironically might be the most boring spec in the game now

[unkempt burrow]

Dont play it then? Go fury?😅

[visual fern]

Arms in legion had Tactician as it's loop
BFA didn't play till nyalotha - there it was Lucid / ToM
SL was MS but you had other buttons that were relevant enough to where it didn't feel bad - you had windows of relevant burst w/ covenants or condemn
DF starts to get watered down into just OP/MS/OP/MS -> spam execute whenever you can (S3 conditionals made this super weird)

Now @ TWW where it's just.... MS

[latent moss]

dont wanna

wanna play arms

which is why im upset

cause this spec has so much potential

yet its just watered down

to a mindless 2 button rotation

[long beacon]

they are working towards an auto attack spec only, they are almost there lol

[latent moss]

s3 was a nice change of pace i enjoyed it

i thank ayxek and ppaw

for cursed tech

[tidal wraith]

we are gonna be classic ret palla soon

[visual fern]

It was novel and different, so it was nice at the time

[latent moss]

yep

[visual fern]

But looking back it didn't really change much in big picture

[latent moss]

its mindblowing how that tierset didnt make it to the talent tree

[visual fern]

Yeah...

[latent moss]

it fixed the issue of sd being giga underwhelming in aoe

it just..

executes..

cleaves with ss

and does nothing

MASSIVE THUNDERCLAP

• REND

those tcs were hard af

[real birch]

Arms > fury or is it just the Prepatch?

[snow flame]

Just prepatch

[real birch]

ah crap :c

[tidal wraith]

Probably looking at another fury expansion tbh

[latent moss]

dw they will aura buff arms and force people to play arms

[tidal wraith]

I would love an arms rework tho

[latent moss]

xd same but

not happening it seems

[rancid solstice]

Demolish though

[latent moss]

spec that needed a rework the most didnt get it

so

according to them they are happy with arms

[visual fern]

Demolish is just

[latent moss]

a spec with one button

[visual fern]

Fyralath

[latent moss]

demolish is cringe

its nothing

[visual fern]

Every 40s instead of 2min

[rancid solstice]

Nice

[snow flame]

idc what anyone says melee having to play around standing still is cringe

[tidal wraith]

yes

BASED BAZED

[latent moss]

i love dreadnaught mini game in keys

trying to avoid 19 frontals

[snow flame]

Windwalkers have to stand still for their cast and they hate it just as much

[latent moss]

swirlies and hit everyone with dn

[snow flame]

they were crying on max's stream yesterday about it

[latent moss]

critcake is gonna do us a favor

[tidal wraith]

Bruh its one of my main gripes with DK they won't drop stand in dnd gameplay

[latent moss]

it lingers for like 3s now

[visual fern]

Get me on that stream

[latent moss]

true

get garm there

[visual fern]

I will cook with the arms agenda

https://tenor.com/bPgUP.gif

[latent moss]

[snow flame]

Hang on I'll find the clip for you as well

[visual fern]

I saw it

I'm just not gonna champion myself to be on his stream

[latent moss]

get critcake on that stream

[snow flame]

We need more vocality!

We get garms and crit on there talking about how bad demolish'd design is

atleast the not moving and casting aspect

[latent moss]

how bad arms design is*

[long beacon]

salty boys in here today lol

[snow flame]

it's not salt when its true

[latent moss]

no he is right

[visual fern]

It's def a bit of salt

[latent moss]

whats wrong with a 2 button rotation

[visual fern]

But arms hasn't fundamentally changed in 2 expacs, seemingly a third going into TWW

[latent moss]

out of 4 arms buttons

1 does nothing

[visual fern]

And the rotation gets more and more watered down

[latent moss]

2 buff the 4th one

[visual fern]

While other specs get glowups or gameplay changing reworks

[latent moss]

(mortal strike)

[snow flame]

1 button spec on aoe btw

cleave is litearlly the only big dmg dealer

[latent moss]

its 2 button on aoe too

overpower and cleave

and on st its overpower and mortal strike

until 35% where u unlock ur 3rd button

[visual fern]

Rage costing overpower?

[latent moss]

👍

[latent moss]

yes

[visual fern]

[latent moss]

execute removed

overpwoer costs 20-40 rage on targets below 35%

same shit

[visual fern]

https://tenor.com/bzgav.gif

[latent moss]

and the other one eats ur rage bar

[tidal wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/fax-facts-true-fax-machine-no-cap-gif-23341580

[latent moss]

0 thought in rage management

[latent moss]

u just starve cause thats what you should do

[snow flame]

Litearlly one button spec

Furys aoe breakdown is way more balanced

[latent moss]

fury breakdown looks sick

troar of bb and ramp

all close

[visual fern]

This breakdown would be fine

If it was interactive

[snow flame]

it's also not even a fun aoe gameplay loop

[visual fern]

Like fire mage sometimes insta pyros, sometimes flamestrikes, sometimes hardcasts for X effect, sometimes fireblasts, ignite has refunds/reset opportunities

[snow flame]

to me

[latent moss]

idk just dont play arms in 11.0

make it by far the least popular spec

[snow flame]

gotta play whats meta sadly

[latent moss]

maybe they do something

[visual fern]

I'm playing w.e better prog

Then not touching arms

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[snow flame]

[long beacon]

so rude towards arms spec, be nice to it

[visual fern]

My name isn't Gfury

[snow flame]

it's about to be

next tier for sure

[gaunt owl]

shit gamepaly for good dps

thats what we get

dont worry

[snow flame]

no shot anyone would want to play arms willingly when fury slayer and MT exist

[latent moss]

not yet

fury thane

looks sick

ngl

[long beacon]

you guys don't like leap, i love that ability

[latent moss]

i dont like fury but thane is looking sick

[rare kite]

huh? where did you get that from? leap is so nice

[visual fern]

[gaunt owl]

Thane is the only one that got his identity right

and visually its just better

[visual fern]

They just couldn't make MP and tier affect execute

[latent moss]

can't have that

no

[visual fern]

To lean into some semblance of execute relevance

[latent moss]

sl arms had no execute interactions

but execute hit 30% harder than ms

[visual fern]

Yeah...

LMAO

[latent moss]

at least it did something

whenever u ripped it

it slammed

[visual fern]

And you had the burst windows + rage econ to make 15x jugg work

[latent moss]

wait im talking about shadowlands

[visual fern]

Lil DW flower puddle

[snow flame]

also while it might sound like warriors are salty I think we're just more annoyed that they havent tried anything with expierenemtnal with arms at all

[visual fern]

[latent moss]

dw self pi

was crazy

aftershock...

my beloved

[gaunt owl]

yep they didnt try thats for sure

[snow flame]

Crazy how much better fury feels on prepatch without any hero talents at all

[tidal wraith]

"Lets bake lego into arms and call it done." - Blizz employee probably

[long beacon]

probably not lol

[visual fern]

Yeah that got messed up too

[gaunt owl]

[snow flame]

[visual fern]

That makes sense for cleave

[sinful phoenix]

wait so is arms gonna be like way worse than fury when TWW rolls around?

[visual fern]

Since WW hits 3x, 1 additional time would be + 33.33333% damage

[snow flame]

yes

atleast gameplay wise

[visual fern]

But not for ww

[sinful phoenix]

Numbers not in yet or?

[snow flame]

Tuning will TBD

until RWF

[snow flame]

and even then things could get nerfed the day mythic gets released

I don't find fury bland at all in TWW

esp since OF is meta now

[visual fern]

180grit sandpaper is very textured

[snow flame]

with ons its def boring

[visual fern]

Just not for a lot of people

Yknow?

[snow flame]

but with OF it fucks

[sinful phoenix]

Man, i really wanna play arms. guild officers will probably force fury if its better tho

[snow flame]

I think arms for me was peak in NYA

due to a lot of factors

I didn't play legion

[gaunt owl]

that was the crack cocaine Arms gameplay

[long beacon]

no raiding for me, so basically play whatever I want lol

[visual fern]

Consistent, predictable damge

[snow flame]

true! 90% haste with razor coral

[visual fern]

That's why I picked up arms in nya

[snow flame]

peak

[rare kite]

unless you're going for hall of hame just play whatever you want

[visual fern]

Now it's some slotmachine

https://tenor.com/biHnp.gif

[snow flame]

[tidal wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/funeral-flowers-grave-gif-5518042

[visual fern]

Base gameplay hasn't changed in 6 going on 7 years

[snow flame]

I would do anything for another razor

[visual fern]

It's smooth, and does the job, and is engaging

But it's - for all historically trending purposes - bland

You know what you're getting

Like tofu

[snow flame]

sure although I think the bs with unhinged is so fucking good

[rare kite]

holy moly, arms is the roidstack of specs. unseasoned chicken

[visual fern]

Arms is

"Have the chef surprise me"

"What's behind door- I mean expac # 3?"

[long beacon]

roids would definitely be seasoned lol

[snow flame]

yeah and then it's cold food

[rare kite]

you don't know the lore

[snow flame]

it's like eating a bowl of she crab soup for the 3rd time in one day

[gaunt owl]

the chicken blender

[long beacon]

lol you guys are nuts, have a good day

[tidal wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/ice-age-scratch-nut-acorn-gif-6377058886590820641

[snow flame]

[visual fern]

You're cookin

It's like having leftover soup for the 3rd day in a row, but since it's leftovers you throw in some random spices and water while you're reheating it

It's still kinda the soup you knew 3 days ago

Just watered down

And random spices to make you think it has flavor

[boreal quartz]

Theseus soup

Or whoevers boat it was

[snow flame]

https://tenor.com/view/desmondpacito-cooking-chef-gif-12378159

[visual fern]

Make Arms Fun Again

[untold trench]

no

[clever crag]

Fuck you mean its not bad

I like the SKS and no TC/WW

Only thing that sucks is the execute

[snow flame]

so its core identity is what mainly sucks

sounds bad to me

[gaunt owl]

lol you can literally ignore Rend use Tclap instead

the dmg difference is insignificant

[thick kelp]

[smoky kayak]

you could, but you'd be wasting talent points in the class tree

the opposite is more true, if you have TC you can ignore Rend, which is good - way better than having to bind both just in case you come across a ST

[gaunt owl]

what waste

[outer holly]

yeah pretty free point to swap

[gaunt owl]

only 2 option to go down this pathing anyway 😄

[smoky kayak]

Shockwave as a ST talent is the dumbest shit lol

but at least we're not starved for points anymore, the earlier trees were even more cursed

[gaunt owl]

we can finally help with a shockwave that knockup for add CC !

[vocal solar]

1 aditional time it meant 1 more tick so its kinda same

[smoky kayak]

if you have adds its not ST!

[outer holly]

I kind of appreciate being forced in to a stun, feels a little awkward being in raid spec and not having access to stormbolt for those random moments

[gaunt owl]

i'm an ethical gamer, i dont pad

[visual fern]

Yah I addressed the wording 2 or 3 lines down

Had to be adjusted for cleave now

[smoky kayak]

being forced into it is dumb, because it's 100% a dead talent in ST content

[vocal solar]

soz 😶

[smoky kayak]

if I'm building a ST talent set, I shouldn't be forced into taking multitarget talents

[visual fern]

All good

[visual fern]

Easy fix

(Or something to that effect)

(It'd be unhealthy)

[smoky kayak]

put shockwave somewhere its easy to path into, sure
but making it a mandatory talent in content where it won't be used is just plain dumb

[gaunt owl]

should swap shockwave with Rally slot

[smoky kayak]

yeah lol, not a great solution even if it would give the button a use

[gaunt owl]

easy fix

[untold trench]

make shockwave do 40000% more damage on ST, split between the target and yourself

[outer holly]

conceptually having access to CC is nice is the point, we just don't agree on how it was implemented

[snow flame]

I wish arms had a few abilities from berserker in lost ark

[visual fern]

Kinda does

Bloodlust is basically demolish/fyralath

WW is WW
Finish strike / MS
Tempest / kinda cleave
Chain sword / OP

Etc

[plain latch]

fellas how do i buffer leggy with charge is it leggy first click charge or the other way around?

or is it just not a thing

[outer holly]

Charge first, because it counts as a hit to enable the damage boost from the on use

it's often suggested to cast something as a buffer between charging and using the leggo, because if you cast the leggo while still moving it will cancel the on-use and put it on CD

[plain latch]

so buffer rend

use after?

[outer holly]

rend/ms, can't go wrong

[plain latch]

ight thanks ❤️

[teal fossil]

You need to ms before using leggo

Because tier gives crit chance for leggo

[plain latch]

good to know thanks

[boreal quartz]

@smoky kayak have you communicated feedback on the weird way execute plays out currently? Im a bit out of the loop who you tell what

[lethal acorn]

fb helps with execute phases on bosses in m+ since battlelord doesn't apply to cleave it doesn't seem relevant, also you can't really take ct for aoe builds, so I think I cooked just fine!

[smoky kayak]

I've sent a lot of feedback lol, anything in particular?

[boreal quartz]

The need for like 6 points for it to be playable

Cuz compared to df execute as a package for m+ st increase isnt feasible to pick

[smoky kayak]

hmm, I don't think that's entirely accurate, especially post-buff

[boreal quartz]

As you need imp exe, mass, ct

And ep

[lethal acorn]

Yeah, I did dungeon slice for the aoe and patchwerk for the st

[smoky kayak]

you definitely don't need massacre for execute to be usable, Improved Execute might as well be a baseline effect, but I don't think it's going to change because it's so easy to get

Critical Thinking was buffed because Exe wasn't usable enough - Finishing Blows is a decent lower-cost swap though (personally I think Finishing should be buffed by ~30%, since it's a little inefficient compared to Crit Thinking though)

the bigger issue right now is that Battlelord and Fatality are really down bad

[boreal quartz]

Execute plays miserably right now imo

[smoky kayak]

because of how many talents you're spending, or the actual gameplay

[boreal quartz]

Gameplay

Though the talent situation doesnt help

Though i doubt we see major changes now

[smoky kayak]

the talent situation I think is hard to solve; right now, it's not really hurting us because the other talents they compete with just... aren't important

[lethal acorn]

They could always bake that into the hero talents too to make leveling to max more relevant

[boreal quartz]

(delete juggernaut make C thinking baseline)

[smoky kayak]

so the only way it becomes a problem that needs to be fixed is if you add or replace them with new talents

which is something that's not going to happen right now anyway

So while I get what you're saying - you spend a lot of points on Execute - I don't see that as an actual problem at this point, because those talents aren't preventing you from doing anything else

the gameplay is another matter

[snow flame]

yeah thats some what true but the visuals for the abilites are way better in lost ark

[boreal quartz]

I just miss being able to have an option to trade a minor amount of aoe for a decent st gain like in s3

[smoky kayak]

well we kind of are doing that, just with different talents

[bold granite]

What a mess

[lethal acorn]

I like this tww prepatch arms warrior better than df arms but not as much as sl venthyr arms

[boreal quartz]

How would you increase single target in your m+ build

[smoky kayak]

WB vs Blunt, DN vs SoA, Rav vs BS

SkS

[boreal quartz]

Those are all choice nodes, wouldnt it be cool if we could restructure our build on top of that?

[snow flame]

I do hope arms gets a slight rage increase buff in execute phase

theres like no room for ip or anything

[smoky kayak]

SkS isn't, but sure; I mean you could talent into Juggernaut too if you really wanted to in M+, it's just not often worthwhile

[boreal quartz]

Save your execute so you can IV :)

[lethal acorn]

I'd rather be rage starved (like in shadowlands) than overcapped on rage, personally

[snow flame]

[teal fossil]

That’s a hot take

[boreal quartz]

SL was different in the fact you dont have juggernaut

[teal fossil]

99% of people be rather pressing buttons

[boreal quartz]

And execute just does damage baseline

[smoky kayak]

no reason you can't do this in M+ for example

can even pick up Sharpened Blades by dropping something up above (bleed damage or collat)

[gaunt owl]

juggernaut in m+

[lethal acorn]

you can still press buttons but having to burn rage as fast as possible feels too fury-esque

I wanna play arms!

[smoky kayak]

the point I already made; you could do it, it's just not typically worthwhile

[boreal quartz]

You cannot possibly afford to do so because of the mandatory 2 pointer in CT

[lethal acorn]

juggernaut is a better talent than that fatality garbage, I'm glad you never take it now

[boreal quartz]

Or itll play like absolute SHIT

Especially if you dont have shaman buff

[reef glade]

12mil rasz fatality maximum dopamine

but yea every other boss who cares

barely notice

[boreal quartz]

Hate it on smolderon

[reef glade]

smolderon lol

[smoky kayak]

Fatality is down bad atm

[boreal quartz]

It was so horrible

[lethal acorn]

fatality actively punishes you harder if you get random mechanics

[smoky kayak]

sorry, can't afford to do what?

[lethal acorn]

because you can't build stacks

actually awful talent

[teal fossil]

Not really

That’s least of fatality’s problems

[boreal quartz]

I cannot afford to have good aoe and st when i wanna just slightly lean into st more

[teal fossil]

Every talent is weaker if you have downtime

[boreal quartz]

Which is dissapointing

[lethal acorn]

Yes but fatality is reliant on uptime more than most talents

[teal fossil]

And fatality ppm makes downtime less punishing than most other things

That is just not true

[gaunt owl]

Fatality just dont scale nicely

[boreal quartz]

It's reliant on TOM

[teal fossil]

The main problem with fatality is its interaction with secondary stats

[lethal acorn]

Well I'm also glad tom is gone too lol

[boreal quartz]

Itll come back fear not they will make a mistake with tuning....

[lethal acorn]

I have an excuse to run spiteful with in for the kill rework

[teal fossil]

The way ppm works makes it so that as long as you press about 8 ms a minute you are getting full value out of fatality

Which is much more lenient than some other high uptime talents like collateral damage/am/tom

[smoky kayak]

aside from the choice nodes and SkS you mean; I do think the tree is very split between ST side and MT side
but I don't see a great solution that doesn't involve "change half these talents to something else"

[lethal acorn]

Yeah if you compare it to the absolute worst offenders it doesn't look as annoying

[boreal quartz]

Someday juggernaut is deleted and execute will do damage without 5 talents and a slow ramping buff 🙏

[smoky kayak]

tbf post buff Execute damage is pretty decent without Juggernaut

[boreal quartz]

It can (and should) always be more

[smoky kayak]

but I don't really think there's anything wrong with talenting into power either; the issue is that (currently) Juggernaut is the only choice

[boreal quartz]

Less modifiers more base damage is an issue that plagues arms in general

[thick kelp]

Juggernaut to 5 stacks

solved talent

[teal fossil]

Compress jug a bit yeah

[gaunt owl]

Juggernaut reworked into SD Tclapping

[smoky kayak]

it's not at all unique to Arms, but it's a byproduct of these bigger talent trees

[boreal quartz]

I feel like for us it's incredibly pronounced: from say 200k non crit ms to 6 mil ms crits in sims

Thats a bit much to me personally

[smoky kayak]

yeah, it's also cause it's focused on a couple abilities

[boreal quartz]

I correct myself to 400k

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1173639152475054080/1267502735876427816/Screenshot_20240729-133428_Chrome.jpg?ex=66a90569&is=66a7b3e9&hm=45f8d0d5f497a628867429dbafcf2f8bfbce972c46120e828a50627314f42083&

Sim as per krisp

[smoky kayak]

but honestly it's not the problem that it's sometimes made out to be either

[boreal quartz]

Well if 2 warriors both crit 50% of their ms, but one crits their EP ones the other doesnt itll be an obscene damage difference - which isnt fun if you wanna compare your damage to others

I have this wonderful log on sark where i crit 80% of my ms in P3 sure wonder why i beat other warriors who are actually good at the game...

But that's a minor gripe

Rework juggernaut

[smoky kayak]

most classes have damgae that looks like that though

[teal fossil]

Yeah I was gonna say

That’s all specs

[smoky kayak]

400k -> 2.1m is only a 4.25x multiplier

[teal fossil]

Not just arms

[thick kelp]

Just wait till we start flipping Demolish crits in and out of ava/cs xdd

[smoky kayak]

like that's just how WoW works

you're comparing minimum hit to maximum damage

[boreal quartz]

for the sake of my argument

because i am opinionated and biased on how i would like the spec to look

[gaunt owl]

biggest MS is 6.3M in that screenshot

thats far too much

[smoky kayak]

this is just one hit of Rampage in DF S4; 6.34x multiplier

I would be happy with toning down MS's multipliers a bit and putting more damage in baseline

[boreal quartz]

Then we agree, that's good

[smoky kayak]

but what you're complaining about is literally just... how wow works

since like Wrath anyway, WoW has always been a game of stacking multiplicative modifiers

[boreal quartz]

Yeah but this like diablo now

[smoky kayak]

I don't think that's really a point of comparison

[gaunt owl]

we are reaching the sky now with those modifier ! 😄

[boreal quartz]

It really isnt

[smoky kayak]

the issue isn't how high the numbers go

the issue is the disparity between the high and low roll

which has nothing to do with diablo

[visual fern]

Disparity X any situational constraints (generally speaking, not just MS)

[native obsidian]

Me like Big MS hits

[boreal quartz]

Melee crits and AM

[smoky kayak]

or put another way

• the tooltip saying 200k, but the ability dealing 4mil isn't a problem
• the ability sometimes doing 500k and sometimes doing 4 mil is a problem

your real issue is just with how much varity there is

[native obsidian]

Big disparity exciting and fun

Who cares parsing

[boreal quartz]

Probably a better way to phrase it

[smoky kayak]

although it's worth pointing out that Arms damage modifiers aren't random either; they're all the result of button presses

[boreal quartz]

I want my gameplay to matter not my ability to highroll

[smoky kayak]

it's not like you got unlucky and low-rolled like Volatility in PoE

it's just the order in which you pushed your abilities

[visual fern]

It's just the unlucky and low roll pa-

https://tenor.com/bGWLi.gif

Sorry, had to

[smoky kayak]

well ok, a few things are random, like the tier set, but still pretty consistent

the talents aren't random anyway

[native obsidian]

Sure but it's the wrong game, I mean every use of an ability could hit for the same amount and you could remove crit from the game but

[boreal quartz]

Oh and i also dont like the large impact of chain melee crits or not in execute especially

[native obsidian]

Yawn at that point

[boreal quartz]

If the content is good itd still be fun

[smoky kayak]

see this is the part I don't agree with, because it is based on your ability

WoW has pretty small damage variance

and none of those modifiers are random

so it is your gameplay that's causing the high roll or not

aside from crit ofc

[visual fern]

The only real complaint for disparity/swing/variety is arms juggernaut since it's 3x15 @ 12s

Which everyone here has agreed is an issue

The way MS works is fine, for this conversation

[smoky kayak]

Yeah I mean, we've been bringing up Juggernaut for a whole expansion

[visual fern]

Yeah

[gaunt owl]

MS between 400k and 6.3m 😄

[visual fern]

All the MS multipliers (critting or parry aside) are controllable

[thick kelp]

5x5 @ 15s

shld be the jugg

[native obsidian]

You forgot when abilities were like this for a bit (not the crit part) and there was a big uproar and blizzard changed it back to damage ranges so people didn't have to see the same number over and over

[smoky kayak]

I'm of both minds

• MS is fine, it's predictable, it's controllable
• I would like if EP/MP bonuses were a little lower and baseline MS were a little higher
  But not because of damage variance; I want that because it would help make Battlelord more competitive

[boreal quartz]

When was that tbc?

[native obsidian]

I forget, I think early legion or something

[smoky kayak]

would be nice, but as we've talked about before, they're extremely unlikely to let Juggernaut stack and chain pre-Execute (at least without taking a massive damage nerf in the process), which is probably would would happen w/ Slayer

So you can fight for it, but Slayer probably gonna catch a major nerf in the process

actually I'm pretty sure Warrior is gonna catch a nerf in TWW anyway

[native obsidian]

Wow has trended far too much towards parsing culture and balance over fun already

[thick kelp]

IMO it would be part of Slayer fantasy, it is the execute focused hero spec they told us about after all. Not bladestorm + op amps + little executes more

[visual fern]

I would like MP dropped to 20 and EP increased to 50
Base MS indifferent

Not sure what that does in terms of MS tuning or battlelord, but MP 30 and EP 35 rn is

[lunar vessel]

more sandbagging needed

[native obsidian]

Let us have some big fun ms crits

[boreal quartz]

Id gladly kill slayer (temporarily) to kill juggernaut

[gaunt owl]

now that you said that we can blame you

[smoky kayak]

you were going to anyway

[rare kite]

surely you mean arms only? 😄

[gaunt owl]

i blame everybody !

[boreal quartz]

What if your MS always could crit high

[visual fern]

[thick kelp]

MP shld affect executes

[boreal quartz]

Rather than with 2ep maybe op with cs and demolish debuff

[visual fern]

Yah or this

[smoky kayak]

EP 50 is... interesting, but Battlelord would be D-E-D

unless you did something separate to it

[thick kelp]

time to change blord then innit?

[rare kite]

blord already kinda dead

[thick kelp]

Jusr let us have static cd MS and make it hard hitting

[smoky kayak]

maybe, but yall were just complaining about MS modifiers being too high and now you want one to be higher... seems kind of counter intuitive innit?

[thick kelp]

nothing wrong with that

[gaunt owl]

MP and EP are too close in modifier

[boreal quartz]

🗣️ DO NOT ADD BACK OP DAMAGE TO BLORD 🗣️

[gaunt owl]

not sure why they buffed MP in the first place anyway

[smoky kayak]

if anything, EP being the lower of the two would be more conductive to MS resets

[gaunt owl]

EP 1 stack of 50

[thick kelp]

MP shouldnt exist and tactician should be resetting CS so we csn get rid of AM

[smoky kayak]

since OP is still controlled by its proc rate, whereas Execute is just freely usable

[gaunt owl]

solved 😄

[boreal quartz]

Wouldnt it be sick as hell if colossus and slayer used either of jugg/blord

[smoky kayak]

1 stack EP would be worse for the game, regardless of the value

[boreal quartz]

So itd be distinct ms spam

or exe spam

[gaunt owl]

would be perfect !

[boreal quartz]

You know what would be

[gaunt owl]

after an MS you OP and get a Battlelord proc to send Exec and MS again !

[boreal quartz]

Legion arm

[thick kelp]

garms post the cook

[boreal quartz]

:chatt

[thick kelp]

mobile icant

[visual fern]

Well the issue/concern is 2fold

1. MS is too centric to gameplay loop, and as a result has a large source of modifiers - but also makes other buttons feel less good (because it's all MS)
2. Execute window feels lackluster due to talent investment/restrictions

My 2 possible solutions were

1. Create a bigger gap between MP and EP values that way MP still has some meaning pre execute - and then you can lean into the execute window without the feelsbad juggernaut investment
2. MP affects execute as well - like it did in Legion w/ shattered def/precise strikes

Though both are detrimental to battlelord's current design

[gaunt owl]

[visual fern]

Which

My ground up community commute cook?

[thick kelp]

Yep

but with OP not sweepibg

[visual fern]

Yah quick edit

[smoky kayak]

I think it all comes down to what you want out of the gameplay

• some people want that MS reset gameplay, some people don't
  Making EP bigger is not at all conductive to that, so if your goal is building big damage windows, it's at odds with the idea of that reset gameplay

[visual fern]

That's fair
What were you thinking would need to be disconnected for that sort of implementation to work

[visual fern]

With this

[smoky kayak]

Battlelord could be changed entirely, but I was talking specifically about retaining the MS reset gameplay

So again, what's the goal? Hypothetically BL could be changed to anything to make it good

but I was focused on making MS reset procs worth prioritizing and buffing EP doesn't really seem to do that

[rancid solstice]

Exhilarating gives you some ms reset gameplay it’s weird to have it on 2 nodes

[smoky kayak]

it is, but they're both bad lol

[visual fern]

Ah you were looking at the reset gameplay okay

[thick kelp]

Garms cook banger dropping soon

Kitchen is hot

[visual fern]

Not the rage/multiplier bit

[visual fern]

🧑‍🍳

OP buff-> Crit %
Tact on CS  (CS can only be used w/ a tact proc`)-> for 3 globals
Warbreaker own CD (would retain AM/IFTK/ToM - sue me)
> IFTK Exsang effect below 35 / or with mastery%SD (either nor, not and/or)

Sweeping -> 
> Normal, passive like legion, +2 target (total 3), but reduced damage
> Improved, active like now, +1 target, both hit for full value
> >> DN triggers off just primary target - not off individual OP hits

Cleave, same shit
BS,Rav same
Battlelord also affects cleave
> ExhilB > SL mortal combo (only MS *casts* affect mastery, so this wouldn't be detrimental
> >> Additional option to consume extra rage on proc for dam (depends on how rage economy plays out)

Byebye Jugg
> SD execlap
> EP bigger damage value, since OP is now crit%
> Exe crits refund more rage, fix need for* CT

Bleeds:
> SKS is good, maybe some tweak so you don't have to rend so much
> Bloodborne is flat % gain, zzz but sure stay
> Legion bloodbath option to where you can double down into a bleed playstyle
> > Where old tides of blood used to be (down SKS tree path capstone*)
> Bloodsurge/Fueled gain value with this extra dot too

Delete ww, delete SD talent (mastery - or talent increases frequency), Delete spiteful (or fix it so it does something)

[boreal quartz]

can we take away op on tact for blord

[thick kelp]

[smoky kayak]

I've seen your cooks before, but I'm gonna be honest

[visual fern]

Honesty is best

[smoky kayak]

they're not bad ideas, but they really just read as forcing in (a specific person's) idea of what Arms should be

rather than actually trying to fix problems with the current configuration

like that's a lot of high level changes

[thick kelp]

Did u not see the Baseg spam

Everyone agreed

Baseg

[visual fern]

Oh yeah, I said if I could personally build arms ground up

This is how I would make it

Don't expect it to become reality

[smoky kayak]

it doesn't really matter if everyone in any particular echo chamber agrees or not

it's whether the designers do lol

[thick kelp]

Garm for designer 2025!

[gaunt owl]

we want real change !

[smoky kayak]

better hold out for 12.0 then

[visual fern]

Gonna go get a CS degree and build a portfolio in 5 years

[gaunt owl]

waiting for wow2.0

[visual fern]

And hope blizz accepts my job app

[gaunt owl]

after the world soul saga is done

[thick kelp]

See u in riot mmo

[visual fern]

C you guys in 3 expacs

[gaunt owl]

[visual fern]

[smoky kayak]

funny enough, they just had a Q&A about that

[visual fern]

And then hope I have enough pull to make these changes

[smoky kayak]

(spoiler: it ain't happening either)

[thick kelp]

Garm just go into riot mmo

and make warrior

[smoky kayak]

na, riot mmo dead

[boreal quartz]

not suprised

[thick kelp]

:nOo:

[smoky kayak]

better off following ghostcrawler to his new project

[visual fern]

Wait he already left?

[smoky kayak]

like a year ago

[boreal quartz]

need in skyhold

tbh

[thick kelp]

yep

[smoky kayak]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/greg-street-aka-ghostcrawler-stepping-down-from-riot-games-331704

[boreal quartz]

can we have this

[rare kite]

ye and riot announced they are redisgning the game from the ground up. game is prolly never releasing

[thick kelp]

[visual fern]

[boreal quartz]

i guess that means no

[smoky kayak]

you're not allowed to have anything

[untold trench]

[boreal quartz]

so you are the warrior dev

[thick kelp]

True we play Arms

[smoky kayak]

anyway @visual fern, my whole point is I don't hate your ideas or anything
but any feedback that starts with "rework all these things from the ground up" is unlikely to go anywhere