arms

[smoky kayak]

TBH IP is just another version of Defensive Stance, it often feels better right now because rage is so available, but in a more balanced rage economy it would probably get used a lot less

[fresh spire]

Can't wait to see what blizzard is doing on alpha

Even then if we had both in a cursed eco some bosses I current tier being able to just press it would be sick

[gaunt owl]

it is suprising that they didnt just remove IP rage cost

[fresh spire]

Smolderon/fyrak good contenders

[smoky kayak]

personally, I would either rework IP into a mini-cooldown (higher cooldown but not cost) or remove it entirely in favor of Defensive Stance

[fresh spire]

Tindril root stacking etc

[smoky kayak]

I've suggested that over and over again, but there are probably PvP considerations

[gaunt owl]

the cooldown of ip is what makes it good too

with the stacking of it

[fresh spire]

Bliz should legit make pvp separate at this point

[gaunt owl]

making it more meatier and longer CD would be nice but not the same

[fresh spire]

Nothings worse than hearing "pvp would be op"

For a reason they can't change something

[smoky kayak]

Sure, but I mean, just removing the cost without any other changes makes an already competitive talent wildly stronger for no real reason

you have to keep things balanced

[fresh spire]

I mean I feel balanced is fine but actively hurting a spec when you could be having more fun out of just because it tips that scales a little too much in pvp is cringe

[smoky kayak]

well in this case, removing the rage cost is more than just a PvP concern

[fresh spire]

Nerf the hp amount in pvp for compensation if its free

[smoky kayak]

if you removed the rage cost with no other change, as @gaunt owl suggests, then it would be crazy strong in PvE too

when it's already competitive, so what is the point or goal of the change?

[gaunt owl]

yeah if rage cost is removed and kept the same CD

we would just spam it on CD

and not make it tactical

[smoky kayak]

exactly

[fresh spire]

I mean at least in its current form with arms cost or no cost it would be the same in pve outside of execute window

[gaunt owl]

but having it on a short CD i like it

[fresh spire]

Same time not having your defensive in the time your starving is cringe when fueled always is optimal

[smoky kayak]

I mean that'd be great for Arms Warriors (who don't mind spamming the ability on CD), but it would just kinda be change for the sake of change

[smoky kayak]

TBF Defensive Stance still exists

D Stance is already one of the best individual defensive abilities in the game, just for how low-cost/high-availablity it is

I'd rather they focus on that feeling good to press, rather than IP, but that's just me personally

[random gazelle]

Yep, paid for a nonfated mythic carry for the Sylvanas mount late in SL, and with the fated buffs I was told it was easier to run it in fated, bow dropped at the fated mythic ilvl.

[smoky kayak]

gotcha, thanks for the info

[fresh spire]

Aye but also taking a damage nerf in the part of the fight you really own sucks too

While also being hurt by ip cost

[random gazelle]

But yea, like you say, doesn’t matter. Axe is obtained differently

[smoky kayak]

Yeah, but IP is also (ostensibly) lost damage - if we weren't in such a crazy high rage economy IP might be even more damage lost than DS

I'm just saying, the two abilities being so fundamentally similar is kinda weird

[smoky kayak]

when I say mini-cd, I'd probably aim for something like 20=-25s like spell reflect; not pressing it 24/7, but regular enough that you don't feel like you have to sit on it

but then I guess you have to ask "is it now too similar to spell reflect?"

[fresh spire]

Spell reflect best cd in game ngl

Always feels like it's up for when you really need it

[smoky kayak]

I fuckin love spell reflect

[gaunt owl]

best CD ever

[fresh spire]

Actually feels good to press always

[smoky kayak]

yeah, and it doesn't infringe on other buttons

it has a totally different use from something like DBTS/ER or even DStance

In a hypothetical world, that's what I would like for IP, rather than just turning it into a better version of Defensive Stance

[fresh spire]

Still think dbs needs something else too it. As cool as max parrys are enraged regen in comparison crushes it

[gaunt owl]

the niche from DBTS is nice but you are not likely to use it for that

[smoky kayak]

wouldn't really work anymore now that IP is on that row, but an idea I kicked around in alpha was a talent that gave ER some of DBTS functionality (parry) and DBTS some of ER functionality (on-demand healing)

[gaunt owl]

extra leech when CD used

[smoky kayak]

so instead of fueled giving you constant healing, you could talent into "when activated, DBTS heals you for 20% and another 20% every time Mortal Strike is used" (or something to that effect, numbers obviously placeholder)

and Fury could similarly talent into the DBTS parry

[fresh spire]

Only issue i would see is that if it went spec tree it would need to be balanced for prot. Even then have a parry cap amount or some shit

[smoky kayak]

I meant on the spec tree

like where storm wall/invigorating fury is (although I actually like invigorating fury as a situational talent); keep in mind this brainstorm was before they re-added IP

[fresh spire]

Bring back aoe spell reflect

[smoky kayak]

that probably won't happen lol

[fresh spire]

Still feel the nerfs to rally auck

[smoky kayak]

they suck, but they're pretty inconsequential

[fresh spire]

Feel like most people die even with rally up

[smoky kayak]

in the grand scheme of things, warriors are still being brought in the same places they were, even double warrior is still occasionally encouraged for the extra rally

[fresh spire]

I get why they nerfed jt

We had 4 warriors first fyrak kill

Rally on every mechanic was amusing

Not fyrak sorry

Raz.

[smoky kayak]

as much as people hated on it, Warriors came out ahead in that trade - we literally just ended up getting a free talent point out of the exchange

far better off than if they'd nerfed baseline rally even further and left the talent in instead

[fresh spire]

I mean I guess. Still feel like with boss design 10% usually isn't enough anymore to keep people alive to idiocy

Where it felt like 20% did more often

[smoky kayak]

Yeah, I get you

I'd rather see them do something for small group use more so than more raid benefit though

Even if we consider Rally only mediocre in raid now, it's still an extra bonus brought by a DPS, and it's still used pretty regularly; but Rally absolutely sucks in 5m content

[rain pagoda]

what would you do to dstance to make it feel better to press?
everything i think of seems like it would be too good and then possibly become rotational.

[hazy flower]

actual progress

finally

41,9%

@gaunt owl @boreal quartz

[rain pagoda]

was thinkin maybe cast tclap or something

[fresh spire]

feel like alot of those cds generally suck, pretty curious to see what other inspiration they could get out of the class. Imagine prot warrior demo shout was actually raid wide reductions on a higher cd. prot getting mass reflect back in some form like for one spell reflected

[hazy flower]

got to p3

[smoky kayak]

its in a pretty good state right now tbh, but I wouldn't mind the cooldown going down a little more, maybe make it 2s intead of 3

I get the intent of not wanting it to be something you press every single time damage comes out, and instantly swap back with no cost though

[spark socket]

Hello all,

I don't know if I'm right here, but are some nice builds for SoD phase 3 arms warrior available? I dont have any clue where to look! 😦

[rain pagoda]

yeah i like dstance. i hadnt thought about making it feel better to press though.
oh i know. dtance increases size by 5%

[smoky kayak]

ok wild cook

merge DStance and IP

[fresh spire]

id much perfer to see dstance return to the on gcd cd

[smoky kayak]

idk do something weird like "when you enter and leave Defensive Stance, gain a X absorb shield"

[fresh spire]

and watch people flick it for insane reductions

[smoky kayak]

it was never actually on GCD, it's just got a separate shared cd with other stances, but putting it on GCD would disproportionately hurt Fury

[fresh spire]

high skill cap players gonna zoom with that shit

im thinking like vanilla style stances where you could just press and swap out right after, sorta like with overpower stance swapping to use etc

but just for the DR

[smoky kayak]

yeah that's off GCD the way they are now, the shared CD was just a lot lower at the time

was used extensively in MoP, and it was a lot of extra APM but could be very rewarding

[hazy flower]

separate gcd would be cool

[fresh spire]

stance dancing was super interesting and fun at the same time it was so fucky

[hazy flower]

as in

same cd as regular gcd

[slow saddle]

do not bring back please 😄

[fresh spire]

:kekw

[smoky kayak]

yeah, it is a separate GCD, stances just have a shared 3s CD

[hazy flower]

ye

[smoky kayak]

maybe lowering that to 2s makes it feel better without being too "free"

[fresh spire]

id be fine with the stance keeping the 6 second CD but after you swap out of defence but battle remained not on cd

[hazy flower]

I just mean that u could swap it much faster

[smoky kayak]

its 3s, not 6s

but yeah, maybe that's an option - hell give it a 10s CD but you can instantly swap back to battle

I like that idea, but at that point, I think you just remove Battle and make Defensive Stance a mini-cooldown like Spell Reflect

[gaunt owl]

it was time

i always forget that battle stance gives us 3% crit

[smoky kayak]

way better than Fury's auto attack buff 😬

[cinder ocean]

I really like how outlaw keeps all the developments in pins so you can see updates, and how they have a little section with all the minmax stuff. Meanwhile here, I didn’t know about the execute TOM minmax until it just happened to get mentioned

[hazy flower]

people who are interested in min/maxing are usually informed on time

but ye

@smoky kayak can we pin the execute spam

[gaunt owl]

the execute min max is cursed knowledge

[warped spade]

Make it 1.5 min cd in 5 man. Competes with aug scales

[gaunt owl]

should have kept the jutsu hidden

and we gonna have normal Execute rotation in S4

so dmg control start now

[hazy flower]

thing with rally is

it's useless most of the time

till either situational case or high keys

it doesnt really help the healer do his job like dr's do

[gaunt owl]

you can save somebody ass

[hazy flower]

you can

but most of the time when you pop it

you dont do shit

[gaunt owl]

they could do like darkness for 5man content

so its still relevant

[smoky kayak]

I was thinking about increasing the value more so than reducing the cd

[hazy flower]

adding a dr, even a small one

would be cool

[warped spade]

I didn't mean scales dr, i meant the ebon buff ~8% ish stam the group gets

[hazy flower]

If I'm on comms with the healer I'm legit begging them to tell me to pop rally

lol

[smoky kayak]

yeah no joke; so many times I ask when people want rally and they're just like "eh, idc"

because it is so low impact

but there's a fine line between high impact and "must bring X class" because it's so high impact

[warped spade]

Value is a little low, especially for a 3min. I'm not too fond of the many defensives we have. Wish they would prune most of them

[untold trench]

A lot of people also underestimate teh impact of an increased maxHP bonus. Turns what was an iffy situation, to supersafe, real quick.

[smoky kayak]

it's not a bad bonus, but it does sometimes feel like you're not going to affect the situation either way

[teal fossil]

Not to mention you have to heal the hp back when it expires

[smoky kayak]

it keeps the equivilant %

[teal fossil]

I thought you gave all 15% back

[smoky kayak]

idk, now you're making me second guess myself; I haven't looked at it in a long while tbh

[warped spade]

Pretty certain you are right Archi

[teal fossil]

Well I’m not subbed

Someone test

[smoky kayak]

I like to think so too, but ya know nobodies perfect 🤷‍♂️

[warped spade]

Gives 10% + heal and stays at % after

[sage badge]

Make rally give 10% increased damage. Surely that's balanced and worth having a warrior for.

[untold trench]

Stop right there

[teal fossil]

Deswind can you login and test for us

[smoky kayak]

yeah that's what I thought; it adjusts your current and max health both times

[teal fossil]

Honestly should just be a 10% absorb

More intuitive

[smoky kayak]

I think the increased HP makes more narrative sense

[teal fossil]

Quantifiable impact

But less flavor for sure

[hazy flower]

yes

it does

you retain the %

[smoky kayak]

but yeah, I'm sure there are several reasonable ways of making it better, the question is how good can it be without starting to feel overbearing

[gaunt owl]

we somehow kept the 15% on Rally

dont make blizzard look at it

[smoky kayak]

as neat as it is to see 4 warriors on raszageth or whatever, raid spots are are already so limited by all the buffs and shit that it's kinda dumb if Rally is so good that any extra spot goes to a Warrior instead of whatever other classes are available

[rare kite]

remove raid buffs

[warped spade]

You say kept 15% but really that extra node we had was just to keep the original value of 20% pre talent/conduit

[smoky kayak]

you know why?

[warped spade]

Meaning it was technically nerfed by 5% 10%

[gaunt owl]

their plan was to nuke it to 10%

[smoky kayak]

it is actually 10%

[hazy flower]

its 15%

easiest way is to go valdrakken pop rally and do the math

[smoky kayak]

I know

I'm saying the spell is actually 10%

[gaunt owl]

tooltip was changed 😄

[smoky kayak]

and I asked if yall knew why it actually gives 15%, because it's pretty well hidden

[gaunt owl]

nothing else

[warped spade]

Stam vs hp thing isn't it?

[smoky kayak]

na this is the actual spell, not the tooltip

[fringe moon]

I honestly don't even feel when I press rally, lol

[boreal quartz]

So P3 before roar 1?

[warped spade]

It's cause everything hits so damn hard now and it will very rarely save you unless you have a personal or other raid cd running

[gaunt owl]

now i'm watching at what you linked for too long

[smoky kayak]

its not in there

[hazy flower]

we died

like

5 sec

into seeeds

xd

on first blazes

no monk buff but I'm getting some demon pulls today

[warped spade]

Should be able to skip 4th roar with the nerfs, you can do the math for this. If you can, drop an extra seed on first roar. Less seeds to handle/worry about. Downside is you need to beat dps check

[fringe moon]

Would rather they change rally into something else

[smoky kayak]

do you want a hint?

[gaunt owl]

i legit have no idea

[latent moss]

👴

[smoky kayak]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=316825/rallying-cry

[gaunt owl]

so this one is still in the game hidden

[hexed saddle]

what the hell is that lmfao

[gaunt owl]

interesting

[fringe moon]

?

[gaunt owl]

thats one passive you get while lvlup iirc

dont tell blizzard

its still there

[smoky kayak]

As near as I can figure it, the TLDR is that Rally was (still is?) bugged

• Rally was 15%
• Inspiring increased it by +5 to 20%

Except that's not how the spell actually worked. In actuality,

• Untalented Rally gave 15%
• The hidden rank 2 spell either went inactive or broke at some point
• Inspiring didn't add +5%, it just overrode the value to 20%

Then 10.2 rolled around and

• Rally was nerfed from 15 -> 10%
• The rank 2 interaction was restored, increasing it back to 15%

In short, WoW tooltips are bullshit

[fringe moon]

ehh...10% or 15%...still don't feel it when I use it

[smoky kayak]

yeah and most of them were merged down with the talent changes

[misty iron]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-what-the-fuck-the-fuck-is-this-wth-gif-17571836

great design

[smoky kayak]

🍝

[smoky kayak]

I think this falls less under design and more under "too many moving parts"

and a byproduct of fundamental level changes adjusting a huge swath of stuff - occasionally something gets missed

[misty iron]

i'm more impressed by how much of a sheep I am
"oh 10% extra health in this situation, i use it, that's cool* and never actually checking

[gaunt owl]

thats what happen when you do some major overall each xpac

[misty iron]

if we're picky, "too many moving parts" is part of the design of the whole thing. Regardless if it's makeshift and hodge podge

😄

[smoky kayak]

well sure, but I mean more the incremental nature of all those moving parts changing at different times

I guess the real culprit is incremental design

But like a lot of things, unless the breakage is very obvious, it will probably go completely unnoticed unless someone bothers to check on it and actually report it

you press rally, you see health go up; you might notice if it's double or triple what it should be, but you probaby won't notice the difference between 10 and 15%

and then if you do notice, you still might not even report it if it's working out in your favor 🤣

[gaunt owl]

delete all the evidence

[misty iron]

/delete past 30 messages in arms discord

[fringe moon]

I doubt blizzard would do anything to the spell...

[halcyon haven]

make rally 50%

[smoky kayak]

I do agree with this though, there are a lot of situations where people are still going to die with rally or survive even without it, and it may not feel hugely impactful

That's not really a problem per se, not every ability should or needs to be the best ability in the game, but it is what it is

like I said earlier, there are a lot of times where I'll ask someone when they want rally or to call for rally and they don't really seem to care

[pure otter]

late to the convo, biggest time rally feels big is like, rashock slams

[misty iron]

yeah, the cases are rare, but it feels good when you see someone survive by the margin of rally

[pure otter]

specially at the end

[hexed saddle]

rally feels a lot like insurance, its not useful until it is

[pure otter]

yarg its a good blanket 2

[hexed saddle]

and when its finally useful you're really glad to have it

[smoky kayak]

Rally is best looked at as additive, not standalone

[pure otter]

just toss it out when friends are in trouble or on top of a raid cd to make it feel better

[fringe moon]

imagine if rally increased the rate of resource regeneration for your party.

[smoky kayak]

by itself Rally probably isn't much of a game changer, but layered atop other cooldowns... it all adds up

[smoky kayak]

You mean, imagine never using it defensively again?

[pure otter]

I still want rally 2 be like, push butten 15 seconds of ramp, then gives u leach based on rage spent

[smoky kayak]

that's a neat idea, but I think it becomes a lot harder to plan out and more circumstantial (for one, doesn't have much effect if you can't attack)

[pure otter]

ip would be wild

[smoky kayak]

I like the concept, but I think it would be better served as more of a personal button than a group one

[gaunt ginkgo]

Would need a different modifier for each spec as well, no?

[fringe moon]

well...I was thinking recklessness but for the entire party

[pure otter]

yeah just use it with burst cause funny

that and i agree it can be hard as fuck 2 plan and healers would be pissed cause u didnt hit the 35% leach berak point to live the next bosses raid damage instance

on the other hand, YO PI ME SO I CAN JUICE THE RAID CD

[gaunt owl]

party buff are cursed

[pure otter]

(uses it to blast)

yeah i hate party buffs

wf be raidwide please

we left this behind in tbc how the fuck did we go back 2 it

[teal fossil]

Instead of paying hundreds a month you pay for a middle at best dps spec

[hexed saddle]

[hazy flower]

delete wf

[hazy flower]

icon was party buff

if I remember correctly

fucking cringe

[gaunt owl]

it got changed to raid wide

[hazy flower]

did it

nice

[smoky kayak]

Yeah it got changed very early; would have been a lot more exclusive otherwise

[nova marsh]

Rally gets reworked

Into a version of recklessness for the whole party

[quasi torrent]

think id rather take a sharp right off the bridge

[nova marsh]

I mean

at least we can stop complaining about utility

cuz then warrior would be mandatory LOL

[latent moss]

y and u would hold it for others

[nova marsh]

It'd be aids. Imagine it's the same CD as hero

[shadow ibex]

only thing that recklessness needs

is to be crit dmg amp instead of rage gen

i want fucking 70% crit amp in my fuckin veins

the difference between my min and max mortal strike needs to be 1 million please

[quasi torrent]

Only 1m?

needs to be 8 digit minimum

[shadow ibex]

min MS -65k

max

650000000000000000000

[warm bronze]

Arms is def feeling solid/fun with the tier set next season... PTR was fun. It just sucks feeling little utility outside of Battleshout/rallying cry/stormbolt and maybe an int shout at a 1.5m cooldown. Love playing the class but wanting to push keys past 23, 24 I feel like you'd need a very special comp. Doesn't feel versatile.

Fucking hate maining Havoc DH rn, but the utlity is too good. I hope they at least give us a double heroic leap again.

Idk, prove me wrong I guess.

Do I play what's fun, or what's flavor of the month... again lol

[rare kite]

Damage is the most important thing in keys

[warm bronze]

I guess that's true at the end of the day.

[rare kite]

If a spec has 0 utility but does more damage it's gonna be meta

[prisma heart]

We use rally to increase our WW's ToDs lmfao

Also did u know u can PI WW tiger

[smoky kayak]

there was another spell that worked with too in the past, something for warlocks iirc

[warm bronze]

I appreciate the guides btw!

[drifting heart]

Remember when we had mass grip on Heroic Leap talent tree during DF beta?

[warm bronze]

Tbh this is the first xpack I haven't play warr. Guild needed a DH lol.

[drifting heart]

Those were the days 🤣

[warm bronze]

Def going back tho

LMAO

wtf

[drifting heart]

They removed it and gave a second mass grip to DH instead

[warm bronze]

bruh that would've been sick

take that shit away from the vengeance sigil and give it to us god damnit

[latent moss]

i dont want leap to be 1:15 with bounding stride

or 1:30 without it

imagine having to leap and then run back to charge

🤢

[wind flicker]

You dont need to play havoc to do keys above 23-24

Just play warrior if you enjoy it. I play without a team and I do high keys as warrior too

If i can do it you can too

[smoky kayak]

it was hella broken, think it was so buggy they just said fuck it

[teal fossil]

Actually curious how messed up the code is

Why can’t they just make it leave a dh sigil on the ground

Or some variation of that code

[wind flicker]

Apparently messed up enough for them to not be able to fix merciless bonegrinder for 2 weeks zZzZ

[teal fossil]

All hands on deck for plunderstorm clearly

[wind flicker]

Tune fire whirl > fix MBG

x)

[teal fossil]

Real content

[smoky kayak]

I doubt MBG is a major fix, it's probably just low priority enough to be batched along with other hotfixes - if we're lucky, maybe it'll hit alongside these raid changes tomorrow; if not, probably whenever they do more S4 tuning

[nova marsh]

I highly continue to disagree

tf is damage gonna do against incorp? all dispells? and no, I'm sorry, those aren't "healer mechanics". What happens when we end up in like this season where stuns and stops are actually very important because of high levels of casts in certain packs

[latent moss]

damage is the most important thing in keys but giving warriors more damage isnt the solution

[nova marsh]

Exactly

Damage is incrediably important

But remeber, part of why god comp came about in s2 was because those classes could counter literally anything with their utility

Evrey one of them had CC, evreyone had some manner of a stop, could deal with aff, exc

And that's why I'm sad at what warriors are

Because blizzard cannot balance selfish/utilityless classes properly

[shadow ibex]

fury was good in s2 before aug spriest and fire mage

all it had was dmg

[prisma heart]

Tanks have more than enough utility to make up for one or two dps just being pure blasters. Vdh, gdruid, ppally, etc.

[shadow ibex]

but it had dmg for every pack

[latent moss]

i mean the thing is

[shadow ibex]

fury was legit a dmg bot for s2 and was great because of that. you have x2 reck for any scary pull

[latent moss]

fury had more than just dmg

[shadow ibex]

maybe you get beat on 1 pack but the next pack you have the same exact CDs while other dps has nothing

[latent moss]

it was completely self sufficient

[nova marsh]

And that's how selfish classes should be

[shadow ibex]

yea

you couldnt die and you just hit hard

[nova marsh]

Self sufficant and having great damage to suppliment it

As in, you have an actual reason to be brought to keys

[latent moss]

and honestly

i fuck with that

i like that

[shadow ibex]

i think warrior utility should be dmg yea

[latent moss]

the issue is that we just got outscaled by aura buffs

[shadow ibex]

a class that can tailor its spec for the dmg profile the content needs and excel in it

[nova marsh]

I think warrior should be wow's equivlant of samuari

Little to no utillity, but obscenely outrageous damage

[prisma heart]

[latent moss]

y but that doesnt work

[prisma heart]

Is tht a ffxiv thing

[latent moss]

in a game where they care about balance

[nova marsh]

Expect it does

[latent moss]

not a single dps player would like a world where u simply cant beat a warrior in dps because thats the only thing they do

its just not fun

for the rest

[nova marsh]

So

We leave warriors and other selfish/utility lacking classes where they are, kinda suffering atm?

Who both lack damage/are very average and have little to no reason to be brought to keys or even considered?

I Mean granted from a meta standpoint, there are only like 10 specs max out of all 38 worth being considered, and 10 is being as generous as possible

[abstract creek]

That does result in fewer players being unhappy overall so yes?

[nova marsh]

So effectively, we need to leave classes dead in the water

[prisma heart]

I think the more utility your class has + how easy your class is, the lower your damage ceiling should be. And the less amount of utility+ difficulty of your class, the higher the ceiling should be.

[abstract creek]

I don't like where brown class is either but making it do the most damage for existing isn't going to help much

[nova marsh]

Again

It'd give us a reason to exist

And tbh we still need a rework anyways

[abstract creek]

Especially when they have to consider raid balancing too

[prisma heart]

Stupid easy rotation with utility also toppings meters should never happen if there are more difficult classes with less utility imo

[abstract creek]

Where utility is significantly less important

[nova marsh]

Raid balancing is an entirely different headache tbh

One that's probally even more complicated then balancing around dungeons arguably

But like, it still feels awful to be a "black sheep" type of classes

To the point where arms and survival have gotten similiar reactions from my experience (650+ declines throughout the whole season despite trying to push speak for themselves....it's why I stopped LOL)

[latent moss]

thats a stupid argument

so u are saying the harder the spec is the better it should be

[prisma heart]

no just higher ceiling

[latent moss]

i mean the goal is to reach the ceiling or close to it

if u are playing a spec

casuals choose specs that require less effort to be played near the ceiling

like ret pala

bm

fury etc

so if u are not a casual but u enjoy lets say ret

you shouldnt be allowed to deal as much damage as fire mage

not because of tuning but because of design

[prisma heart]

i think u should reward players who knowingly pick a difficult spec and master it ya

[proud plover]

i disagree, you 100% should be allowed to deal as much damage as a fire mage if you can master your spec/rotation - what shouldnt happen is dealing as much or more playing casually

lets say you die hard ret every season/xpac, thats all you ever play - you shouldnt be punished for playing it because its casual friendly

[latent moss]

exactly

imagine being a warrior main and u are shit every single tier cause both of ur dps specs are simple

arms isnt as simple but its still pretty simple

that would force blizzard to either dumb down some specs or make simple specs harder to play which is the opposite of what they want with the game atm

[prisma heart]

ya i never said easier classes should be shit but w.e lol

go off buddy

[nova marsh]

Or we could just give warriors actual utility

Oh wait, does blizz even remeber we're a class?

[proud plover]

we have utility

what els do you want

[nova marsh]

It's niche.

[latent moss]

i mean the shit imfiredup did on multiple occasions is nothing but display of mage mastery

[proud plover]

lust? brez?

[latent moss]

damage shouldnt be tied to spec difficulty

[nova marsh]

Rally is okay, Bshout is a decent damage buff (at least better then monks lol), Howl is good.

And no

I don't want lust or a brez

[latent moss]

obviously that results in casual fury warriors shitting on casual mages but that doesn't hurt balance

[smoky kayak]

April Fools (not really)

[nova marsh]

I want utility that I don't have to bend over backwards for and is at least comparable to other classes

I want actual CCs and stuns that don't have a minute and a half CD

I want an actual incorp counter.

[smoky kayak]

told you it was probably batched with the raid hotfixes 😛

[proud plover]

this is an issue with the affix not the class tbh, same as afflicted

[latent moss]

a fuck ton of classes cant interact with afflicted but incorp

[nova marsh]

Afflicated we're never getting a counter for lol

And I'm okay with that

[latent moss]

im pretty sure we are the only one with literally no counter to it

[nova marsh]

Would it make sense to give the warrior a way to clense or decurse

[latent moss]

except shattering throw on a 3min

[lunar pagoda]

Noob question - in season 4 do we use cleave instead of slam as spender if everything is else on cd in st situation or it doing less dmg than fully talented slam?

[latent moss]

u dont talent into slam

u thunderclap as filler but u can cleave if u dont have any stacks of martial prowess

[proud plover]

st or aoe?

[nova marsh]

St

They say it in the post ur responding to

[smoky kayak]

It would be Thunder Clap; if that is on CD and you don't have Slam talents then Cleave would be stronger

But the likelihood of that confluence is fairly low

[lunar pagoda]

ty I'm just asking

[proud plover]

i think slam for pure st, basically the build we have now will be s4

[smoky kayak]

Although you wanna be careful - you don't really wanna consume OP stacks with Cleave instead of MS

[proud plover]

^^ for this reason

[smoky kayak]

honestly that confluence of events is pretty low, so it shouldn't come up more than once a blue moon

[latent moss]

tc is prob better since we dont refresh rend anymore

[smoky kayak]

TC is better outright, yes

[latent moss]

[nova marsh]

I mean

We're gonna need to manually refresh rend next tier anyways

[smoky kayak]

Technically Cleave is stronger than TC, but TC spends rage, so unless you're starved it'll give you better returns (and not waste OP buffs)

the forbidden tech

[latent moss]

[proud plover]

oh shit

[latent moss]

im looking forward to exhilarating blows

[nova marsh]

Bros cheating and slam is still doing no damage

[smoky kayak]

it tries its best

[latent moss]

2 points into improved slam

still no damage

[nova marsh]

Tbh

You could put all 31 points in imp slam

And it'd still do no damage lmao

I mean maybe more then MS

[latent moss]

which isnt hard

[nova marsh]

Without crits and buffs

[smoky kayak]

well it would have diminishing returns after a few points maxing crit chance

[nova marsh]

....God arms is depressing

[proud plover]

only until execute

[smoky kayak]

listening to some of yall is depressing tbh

[nova marsh]

Yeah no, you're absoutlely right

[smoky kayak]

everything does no damage, utility doesn't exist, I want unique bonuses that nobody else has and mandates I get a 100% pick rate in every group I apply to

step back from the edge, it really ain't that bad lol

[latent moss]

it is!!!!!

we do tank damage!

[nova marsh]

Okay look we aren't UDK or survival

[latent moss]

fdk u mean :xdd:

[nova marsh]

Really....I just want a rotation that dosen't feel....awkward

[smoky kayak]

tbh the rotation is pretty smooth right now

[latent moss]

i like how dynamic the arms rotation is with exhilarating blows

[nova marsh]

I mean I've never really liked EB

[latent moss]

its dynamic without it too

[smoky kayak]

S4 rotation is a bit cluttered in AoE, kinda playing whack-a-mole with your keyboard

[nova marsh]

Always felt like it was WAYYY too high rolly

[latent moss]

arms has a bloat problem honestly

[proud plover]

i love the rotation currently but only wish SD spent rage

[latent moss]

in aoe

[proud plover]

or remove tom

[nova marsh]

I think ST is okay minus tom rotation wise, that needs to die

[proud plover]

or make tom buff your next cs window and not the end of it

[latent moss]

i mean tom doesn't really change much except squeezing 2wws in

[nova marsh]

AoE just needs to be less cluttered

[lunar pagoda]

what if they change slam to non-gcd ability which just buff next auto-attack, buffing it for same damage which it deals rn and wasting same rage

[smoky kayak]

most of the problems are actually high rage economy problems

• SD was originally changed to not spend rage to ensure you could actually use it, because in a low rage economy (that arms traditionally has) not being able to press your button isn't exactly fun
• ToM issues are not fully, but partially the fault of high rage economy too (especially when non-rage spending things like OP are so emphasized - it's just a matter of conflicting design directions)

[latent moss]

slam should apply rend

it slams them so hard it causes them to bleed

[proud plover]

aoe is fine, kinda would like imp ss to increase the amount of mobs hit tho

[nova marsh]

So basically class heroic strike

[smoky kayak]

unless it has a decently long cd, they're not going to inflate APM by adding a regular ogcd again

[nova marsh]

Tbh I don't think offensive OGCDs belong in a game like wow

[latent moss]

with how short our gcds are

def not

maybe in games with slow gcds like ff14

sure

or classic

[nova marsh]

in 14 it makes sense

[latent moss]

but def not retail

[nova marsh]

In classic maybe, idk I don't play it

[latent moss]

i mean u have heroic strike for a reason

its not low apm cause u are mashing heroic strike like a madman

[nova marsh]

But like 14 makes sense to make the gameplay more frantic and keep up AMP to a comparable state for most jobs compared to wow

[latent moss]

with infinite rage

[nova marsh]

In DF?....It's more frustrating...espically cuz like....haste just exists

[proud plover]

no more heroic strike, i dont want to have to turn it on/off because something reset and your excess rage is better spent elsewhere or rage starve yourself

[smoky kayak]

well their idea sounded more like focused rage than an actual attack, but either way I don't think it's gonna happen

Arms definitely needs some love, and it is going to get some

[nova marsh]

I just want the Alpha

To see what said love actually is.

[smoky kayak]

don't worry, I'm sure it won't be good enough for you 😬

[proud plover]

is mbg working on live or just ptr

[smoky kayak]

the first versions of DF talent trees were abominable, it took several revisions to get them to a good place

[nova marsh]

I don't expect blizz to knock a rework out of the park first try

...because their track record for that isn't exactly high

[latent moss]

idk rogues are amazing

[proud plover]

pwar rework in df alpha/beta was pretty amazing tbh

[latent moss]

all 3

[lunar pagoda]

exactly, and now i see its gonna be dumb, yeah.So just make slam doing same dmg as other abilities, 55k+ unbuff 😄

[nova marsh]

I just want one thing...don't let warrior end up like early bfa shadow

[smoky kayak]

its fixed on live

[nova marsh]

Where they just half baked it and said "hey we're gonna complete this next patch, have fun for a season!"

[proud plover]

ty

[latent moss]

i mean they have a long ass time

[nova marsh]

Not really

Blizz is targeting summer realese, yeah?

[latent moss]

def not

prob november like usual

or october

i dont see s4 being 2-3 months mx

prob gonna be more

[proud plover]

11.0 oct, xpac launch nov im calling it now

[smoky kayak]

The roadmaps has it between Summer and Autumn, so probably august-ish?

[nova marsh]

That's where I saw it

[smoky kayak]

prepatch in summer

[hexed saddle]

alpha soon

[latent moss]

thats actually crazy

and .5 in autumn

[smoky kayak]

Alpha within the next few weeks, around the same time as S4 start

[latent moss]

late autumn

so in november we are getting .5

[nova marsh]

It's absoutlely not gonna launch in novemeber if they stuck to their current ideal timeframe

Which they probally won't

I will...genuinely be surprised if TWW dosen't get delayed at this point

[latent moss]

slayer gave mehope

that someone at blizzard plays warrior

[smoky kayak]

Slayer looks legit, I'm digging it

[latent moss]

im a massive fan

[nova marsh]

Am I the only one kinda praying for coll to get some work and love and actually like demolish a little bit

[teal fossil]

My only concern is the gcd spin

That’s it

[nova marsh]

The obvious answer is yes

[uncut stag]

what was incorrect functioning of bonegrinder?

[smoky kayak]

Idk, the other two trees have some good stuff going for them - Colossus just lives and dies on how good Demolish feels

And Mountain Thane was pretty clearly an early design - if it ends up more like Templar, I think it could be pretty legit

[hexed saddle]

tunnel vision looks cringe i hope they change it

[latent moss]

just didnt work

[hexed saddle]

everything else is solid

[latent moss]

didnt give u the buff at all

y tunnel vision is VERY cringe

i also hope they change frenzy

[smoky kayak]

honestly if Tunnel Vision is the worst problem, we're eating well, but it should be relatively easy to address

[nova marsh]

If demolish hits hard, I'm sold

[hexed saddle]

reserving more concrete opinions until we finally get to see tree changes

[hexed saddle]

100% agreed

[latent moss]

y

[nova marsh]

As in like, top 10 hardest hitting abilities in the game

[latent moss]

i love how slayer is execute themed but isnt shoehorned into the last 35%

[smoky kayak]

Yeah, it's hard to make any real determinations right now without seeing all the interactions

[hexed saddle]

yeah im happy with the general vision tho

[proud plover]

i hope the both perform similar so we can actually pick based on flavour and not just 'biggest dam'

[hexed saddle]

think they have some really cool ideas

[nova marsh]

That hope is going to die very fast

[latent moss]

they said they will try

[proud plover]

i want mov speed after charge

[latent moss]

but they also said that about covenants in sl

but they changed with df

[nova marsh]

Honestly after covenenats, I HIGHLY doubt blizz will balance hero talents to be "interchangable"

[proud plover]

mountain thane hands down for prot, fits my doorf perfectly

arms i want slayer

[smoky kayak]

I'm a pretty practical person, and so I'm not expecting anything wild - Warrior probably isn't going to have any super special unique utility that makes them meta for everything, or the strongest hits in the game, or whatever else

But the designs look fun, and they look like they at least could work reasonably well (depending on w/e they do to the class/spec)

and if that's the case, I'm happy enough

[hexed saddle]

it is kinda funny that this started out as a "you should pick whichever u want regardless of damage" and slowly morphed into trees having clear use cases for different content types lmfao

[smoky kayak]

a little bit, but idk, all the trees have the same mix of effects

[hexed saddle]

not even faulting them for it - its so easy to get caught up in making things cool

[smoky kayak]

they all have ST, they all have MT, they all have some kind of CC/utility/survival buff

[nova marsh]

I mean tbh I doubt most people play warrior because they want to be meta

[smoky kayak]

no, but a lot of people who do play Warrior desperately want it to be meta

we hear people qq about it in here every day lol

[latent moss]

most of it is m+

[smoky kayak]

muh utility!

[nova marsh]

I mean I might meme about it, but I don't really care. I just don't want a repeat of DF s2

And to feel useful in stops and shit

[proud plover]

i dont want warr to be 'meta' and have to compete with every warr thats already in a group, i just want it to feel like you see a warr in list and think yep take them no probs

[latent moss]

i dont tkae warriors cause most of them are apes

same with mages

istg pug warriors just charge and rip every single offensive cd known to mankind

and die to aggro

its true with all specs

but fury being so frontloaded

makes it a lot more common

[proud plover]

real warriors do that but pop a defensive also

[latent moss]

idk i let my tank pull and save my defensive for when i need it

[smoky kayak]

idk Legion taught me that if you do that, you get brought to valhalla and given free swords

[latent moss]

peak fantasy

[smoky kayak]

literally the plot of the Warrior class hall btw

[proud plover]

charge > bladestorm > release is a way of life

[nova marsh]

Don't forget the shield!

[smoky kayak]

the what?

[latent moss]

thats why i play warrior

i get into a key

[nova marsh]

Scale of neltharian was a thing

[latent moss]

i dont interact with affixes

[smoky kayak]

idk what you're talking about

[nova marsh]

I think that was the prot name

[latent moss]

but i do dam and i dont die

[nova marsh]

There are two types of warriors

The ones who do damage and don't die

And the ones that do some damage and die to a miqosute in the enviorment coming up too close behind them

[proud plover]

there are warriors that jump off cliffs and charge to a mob and there are warriors that jump off a cliff and heroic leap to saftey - if you are neither you live in the halls of valor or off playing a ret pally

[smoky kayak]

na, the real tech is charging a mob to get up the mountain

[proud plover]

i call that fun mountain goat simulator

[nova marsh]

I most certainly live in the halls of valor

[smoky kayak]

na forget that place, what a massive let down

[gloomy mirage]

third type of warrior

just die

splat onto the ground

[nova marsh]

me

LOL

[reef glade]

thats already every warrior

[vague nova]

does mirror reset if you use it before the key is put in

[boreal quartz]

No harm trying it in a +2

CD should reset idk about buff

[halcyon breach]

Anything 2 min and above (including trinkets iirc) resets on boss resets and when keys are put in

But frankly pre-using mirror isn't going to net you much of anything in a few dungeons

On top of having to use mirror the rest of the dungeon

[boreal quartz]

Prepot

Sweatlord shit frfr

[hazy flower]

the gain is absolutely minimal

realistically you may land 1 melee buffed by mirror in some dungeons, while in others you wont even get a chance due to rp/travel (fall/ad)

unless you want to rip the agro then by all means prepot and start blasting before the tank

[boreal quartz]

Prepot invis tho..

[hazy flower]

even prepots (or pots in general) are not as good as they used to be

you have same pots you had in s1 or s2 (cant remember if we had ultimate ones in s1) while having much more stats

[halcyon breach]

Ultimate did exist in S1 but you had to craft them through work orders or yourself

But yeah

Pre-using mirror is not it

[finite spire]

how long has bonegrinder been broken?

[hazy flower]

since .6 hit

[finite spire]

oh just since plunder?

[hazy flower]

yes

[finite spire]

right. So will we play it in S3 now?

[hazy flower]

You mean in season 4? Even if they fix it, I doubt it. Most likely our set in stone build will be what we're playing right now (the bladestorm one) except 1 bb point swapped with cleave

It's gonna be more of a build for funsies probably

[finite spire]

right okay. Maybe a first pull of AA angle.

[hazy flower]

Again, more of a "Turn off your brain and blast" since you wont be swapping builds in aa (at least it doesnt seem to be productive) and it's not important enough of a pull to play around it

You can still play with it in season 4 as cleave tier set will bring lots of value to the mbg but if you're looking for the most optimal build that's probably not the one

[astral yarrow]

Cleave being a sub 2k dps loss in ST is pretty impressive in regards to m+ builds

[boreal quartz]

Cleave on sark wb in shambles

Fuck the padders rahhh

[astral yarrow]

But WB means less committal to aoe globals though

[boreal quartz]

It's 1 vs 1

Youd sweep dn anyways right

[astral yarrow]

Cleave is a lot more tight on positioning while WB isnt, but i guess optimally it wouldnt matter much

[boreal quartz]

Optimally wb is more pad right

[astral yarrow]

Nah, im pretty sure cleave is better if you actually get to cleave, not just apply DW

but adds get blown up so WB is better non comittal

[daring heron]

Cleave vs wb on sark is interesting

wb would blast adds harder, but it's a pretty big ST loss vs just cleave

prolly depends how much pad you'll get on adds

[astral yarrow]

ye

WB at least was the play during the tier

doubt it'll be any different in S4

[molten crane]

i see someone talking bout cursed execute minmax? i would like to be cursed

[astral yarrow]

Execute above 40 rage, OP under. MS at 2x OP and 2x EP buffs. MS at 1x OP and 2x EP in ToM+CS overlap

The tech is dead come S4, so it’s probably not worth getting used to

[finite ginkgo]

Why?

[rare kite]

tier set

[boreal quartz]

Not enough sd plus ms buffed from tier

[dull siren]

Mortal Strike hits hard

[finite ginkgo]

Ty

[exotic kestrel]

in s4 its just 2xEP makes MS prio above everything right

[rare kite]

yes

[clever crag]

As it should be

[exotic kestrel]

[rotund ferry]

[exotic kestrel]

make EP 75% again pog

[olive nest]

EB making a come back

When that 2nd proc hits off the first

[finite mantle]

I’m gonna hit you hard

[frigid lava]

Hmmm 2 hour maintenance

[olive nest]

Good maybe garr binding will drop after a hotfix today

Only been 12 years

[frigid lava]

I'm ready for another disappointing weekly vault

I proabbly should pick up that weapon to replace crafted one

[rare kite]

go do heroic fyrakk first

[bleak galleon]

Have hope lad fyr'alath this week for sure

[gaunt owl]

always take vault last

[frigid lava]

hmmm

yall right

but too late 😦

I've been in this season only 6 weeks. so no high hope for fyrakk

[dire hinge]

worse case you have yourself a fury offhand then

[frigid lava]

Probably

Just not a fan of s3 fury rotation.. but will see

[bleak galleon]

Chance is always 50/50

[gaunt owl]

^

this guys math

[carmine fossil]

i ended up taking a trinket..

[rare kite]

got mine early, you never know

[carmine fossil]

was either weapon or two trinkets out of my vault.. lol

[fresh spire]

You either get it or you dont

Even if the odds are against you

[olive nest]

Week 43 without 489 might, ember* or rezans in vault

[bleak galleon]

Next week surely

[gaunt owl]

you gonna replace them in 4 weeks

[carmine fossil]

i feel like signet is playing with fire.. literally

[dire hinge]

yeah i called it a wash on Might, never saw one in vault all season

[shadow ibex]

which fury set won the vote

ws it 3?

[misty bridge]

s2

[shadow ibex]

ok good

[carmine fossil]

i feel bad.. i got rezen and pip week 1, week 2 was signet and sandglass

[olive nest]

Don’t feel bad enjoy it!

Rng gaming

[carmine fossil]

i generally run signet and augury now for most content

[frigid lava]

signet swings so much for me..

poor to great

[boreal quartz]

Depends on the fight

And it can highroll

[snow flame]

Alright boys I worked up a spreedsheet thoughts?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10g479vXesC382k68gw4akUKeuGUodbDho0yhKK6Eh0w/edit#gid=0

took lots of hours

[gaunt owl]

thats a nice spreadsheet thx for the work

[dull siren]

holy worker! 🧑‍🏭

[snow flame]

lmk if I'm missing anything!

[finite mantle]

Can’t wait till my guide comes out

[snow flame]

Theres already a guide on youtube

by mr javentees

or however you spell it

[dull siren]

@wind flicker sadly it's

TV as well

My guy is a 📺

[wind flicker]

Javentees

Pog

[finite mantle]

Fuck I don’t think the right larias is in this disc anymore

[wind flicker]

But yeah i felt like being early this time so already made a fury / arms guide

[snow flame]

Takes a flock to get the class the help it needs

[wind flicker]

Bro ngl

If anything needs help

Its fury warrior kekw

[dull siren]

Dw, Arms will need help after you make a guide with 0 ST and 0 SS / SoA

in the m+ build

[wind flicker]

I actually mentioned 2 builds

Because the ST on MBG build is absolutely wack

Only works in certain comps / dungeons on forti weeks

[dull siren]

It's gonna be a "TP OUT GO NEXT BUILD"

[wind flicker]

Not really tbh

Can easily drop reaping or 1 bloodborn for EP

I feel like u have enough points to change some stuff up for more st / aoe depending on preference

[dull siren]

I mean, EP doesn't fix it?
You'll have to drop for SoA as OP is insanely good right now for ST as well.
The DPS gain from being this much AoE isn't a time gain, It's more of a timeloss as it has 0 priority damage.
Only MS + OP main target.

It's the same reason, The best preforming Arms build this tier is using Reckless instead of 2x Bladestorm.
The uptime value of MGB isn't great enough.

As well as now with Cleave we have a lot of extra AoE into the already good ST build.

[wind flicker]

But i dont really get the argument ur trying to make, ur legit just talking stuff that i already talk about in the guide

I know this kekw

Thats why i specifically said that its a pad build that only works in certain scenarios

[dull siren]

I commented on your "Drop reaping or 1 bb for EP"

[gaunt owl]

die MBG die

[wind flicker]

If u want some more st ye

Im not saying its compareable to the other build

[grizzled brook]

yo can someone give me a talent build for arms? im gonna play it to fuck around in some btm keys

[wind flicker]

BcEAfuKaizEAgP2qANDB2hmf7DQplIRkQSiWpkEAAAAQQEiCJBFRAJIJhmEhAEEJAAAAAAAAkolICIENEA

[grizzled brook]

is this like an all around key build?

i havent played arms since like bfa, so im alittle lost kekw

[dull siren]

Would suggest getting cleave to play around the Tier Set manging the uptime for the 8% Critical Damage + Critical Strike

[wind flicker]

He is talking about current season tmy

BTM (Break The Meta)

[dull siren]

Break the mETA

:Fyfan:

[smoky kayak]

I like the meta vs meta side event they setup

[wind flicker]

I read about it yea, full dh setup is going to be interesting

Although im doubtful we see many people playing it, since its not as easy to get a group of 5 dh's as you usually don't meet the same class as you play yourself in m+

[mortal crag]

is it actually a play to run intervene on soul thorns boss for tanks?

like when i pop my dbts i just intervene tank on top

[gaunt owl]

at your own risks you can

[mortal crag]

thats what im asking whats my risk here

[gaunt owl]

dying becasue you fuck up

[mortal crag]

im not taunting or anything

i just intervene

for him

[gaunt owl]

if you intervene use DBTS

and show your back at the boss

you still get smacked

[mortal crag]

i see

ty

[wind flicker]

Wasnt intervene a longer effect than DBTS?

Nope, im trolling

Ignore me

Been such a long time since i played intervene, think the last time was shadowlands where the conduit made it good to intervene for DR on the target

[wicked aurora]

intervene DBTS was so clutch back in SL honestly

[gaunt owl]

dont bring back the utility talk !

[woven wasp]

safeguard owns

[wicked aurora]

me not talkin about utility I just miss having that at all times

[olive nest]

Hi I made this

Clearly outlined in the author section

[wicked aurora]

tanks would rarely ever call for it or I'd do it and they'd do something stupid like leap away or pop another major defensive whenever I would use it anyways

but it felt clutch to use anyways

[wind flicker]

Man, that would be such a cool talent to get honestly

I would really like that

[smoky kayak]

I tried so hard to get them to add safeguard back to the class tree in DF Beta

but they seemed to be really against the idea

[gaunt owl]

And got so far

In the end

[hazy flower]

in the end, it doesnt even matter

[dull siren]

never heard it has in the end twice

[wind flicker]

Thats so odd to be honest that they are against it. It feels like a really cool and unique piece of group utility that requires skill to get good value from

[gaunt owl]

choice node were so unused for the design of the talent tree

[smoky kayak]

idk, we didn't get into the specifics of it, but I assume it was probably because of PvP, or the two-point investment of Intervene -> Safeguard, or if it's a choice node giving a reason to use intervene instead of safeguard, or maybe because it favors Arms more than Fury

[wind flicker]

I know for M+ at least it would be massive, and i'd love to play around it and get used to like "safe" people

Well maybe for the talent tree rework for TWW

[wind flicker]

I agree with it favouring Arms more than fury, but being able to intervene the healer on very high incoming group wide damage for that extra bit of DR still seems really solid

[smoky kayak]

I'm not saying it's not still useful, just pointing out possible factors

[wind flicker]

I used to do it all the time in Shadowlands Lower / Upper Kara specifically where the healer got in trouble with Garotte for example

Felt giga satisfying

[smoky kayak]

would be nice if they could setup a version of intervene just for mobility, and a version with safeguard that you could talent into for defensive utility though; that could be an interesting choice node

[wind flicker]

Would actually be a pretty cool suggestion ye

[smoky kayak]

maybe in the rework

[grand idol]

Just let it intercept spells again imo

[magic canopy]

@visual fern gimme the sark parry video

i need it

[visual fern]

x

@magic canopy

[magic canopy]

ty

[quasi torrent]

noober

[latent moss]

challenging shout dbts was goated

[latent moss]

definitely. warriors protect their allies so it makes sense

maybe intervene baseline and current intervene is just safeguard idk

[smoky kayak]

as much as I'd like everything I want to be baseline

"just make it baseline" is almost never the right solution for blizzard

[gaunt owl]

we somehow gained Dstance and SS baseline

[smoky kayak]

Yeah I'm not sayin it wouldn't work, just sayin I wouldn't bet on it

[wicked aurora]

I'm still of the opinion that AM baseline would be BiS

[smoky kayak]

It’d be nice sure, but what problem does it fix?

[wicked aurora]

with the new system none

[smoky kayak]

Arms gets it auto, fury actually has a decent choice between it and RA

[latent moss]

i agree but then u would have to talent into intervene and then talent into safeguard or give intervene something more and make it a choice node

[smoky kayak]

Yeah my suggestion was choice node, probably longer cd on safeguard or something, idk - there’s definitely a way

[wicked aurora]

in the old talent system it would have been mint, but then again moot point cuz we don't have that anymore

[gaunt owl]

i want real choice node

when i get my pizza i want tomato sauce and mozzarella on it

and after that i choose the ingredient

[smoky kayak]

Feels like most of the choice nodes are decent ideas, just incredibly one sided

[dire hinge]

looking at you spiteful serenity

[nova marsh]

Spiteful shouldn't have even been made

[gaunt owl]

it would be decent if they didnt put a downside to it

[nova marsh]

I think if it increased the damage but reduced the duration

And maybe made it a choice between that and tom

Or make warbreaker baseline and put it as a choice between blunt instruments and ss

[shadow ibex]

AM in class tree

[gaunt owl]

die AM die

its number 3 on my lists

after Parry and TOM

[smoky kayak]

AM has actually caused a lot of problems for Arms, though idk if it itself is a problem so much as the over emphasis alongside ToM

those kinds of feedback loops are fun, it's just too strong of a feedback loop that it can start to drown out everything else

[sage badge]

I think reducing the cooldowns baseline would just be better. AM is basically always picked and having spiteful serenity is just a waste and/or useless choice node. 30s CS/WB, 1min Ava/BS. Considering ret pala has wings every 1 min, I feel like 90s is awkward. 1 min interval cds just play out better in most content imo.

It feels doubly worse when you have to play trinkets that are 2 min cds

[finite mantle]

[strange perch]

Am used to affect avatar and it was glorious

[visual fern]

I actually like 90s CDs

But that's because AM has been (almost) universally good so you can opt into 30s/1minuters

Going entire tiers without having 90s trinkets feels awful though

Need more of those

[halcyon haven]

yea if only they reset after wipes tho

[zealous sphinx]

So Im just picking back up arms after a while on fury, Just to make sure the WW is basically not used at all in the rotation anymore, and Thunder clap only used to apply rend

[wind flicker]

You do use WW in both aoe and st

WW is a great way to dump rage for ToM or a good way to proc an OP

[zealous sphinx]

So the wowhead guide is not updated or something?

[wind flicker]

Are you talking ST or AOE?

[zealous sphinx]

ST

[cinder ocean]

Make sure you have the talent Storm of Swords selected

[wind flicker]

Then you definitely use WW after CS to dump rage

[zealous sphinx]

Ah

That was it

thanks!

[cinder ocean]

Last I checked the APL, WW>OP in ST unless your colossus smash is almost back

[zealous sphinx]

indeed

[wind flicker]

I believe thats only if you have < 2 OP stacks no?

[zealous sphinx]

I found it off that there was basically 0 care at ALL for overcaping lol

[cinder ocean]

Seems like the APL was sending WW even while capped

[wind flicker]

Hmm thats odd

[cinder ocean]

c (whirlwind while CS) > d (whirlwind when talented into TOM, unless CS is almost back) > e (OP in any circumstance since we take BL)

[wind flicker]

Yeah im just surprised by the WW even on 2 op stacks

[cinder ocean]

I honestly haven’t tried to modify the apl to see if 2OP>WW>1OP is fine, but it shouldn’t be too hard to check. I just rationalize the APL as “TOM makes AM extra valuable so it makes WW rage dump higher priority”

[wind flicker]

Yeah i guess in that regard it makes sense, but i'd figure that spending atleast 1 OP before sending the WW will gain more value long term

Like OP->WW->OP->MS

[cinder ocean]

Yeah you would think fishing for MS resets are pretty good too, I agree

[wind flicker]

Which gives u a chance to instantly get back to 2 OP stacks or worst case 1 rather than potentially ending on 1 or even 0

[cinder ocean]

When I played this way following the APL I noticed I would end up slamming more often too

[shadow ibex]

it still primarily uses it inside CS. the WW is sent there because it spends so much rage for AM to get CS back faster while not losing a cast in CS

[wind flicker]

Slam no bueno

[wind flicker]

Its more to do with building up ToM quickly, but also that yes

[shadow ibex]

that line doesnt have CS up so its not related to ToM at all

[halcyon breach]

You can do SD > MS > OP 2 > OP 1 > WW > Slam > TC and do more than fine

[shadow ibex]

since the cooldown >7 remaining

[halcyon breach]

and blindly follow that prio

[wind flicker]

I meant as response to it uses it primarily inside cs

[shadow ibex]

yes that would be the line higher up

[wind flicker]

I refuse to press slam 😎

[shadow ibex]

that WW is very specific which is why it only has about 5 casts during the sim

its not always prioing WW over OP

its prioring WW over OP if it can cast WW and still not lose a CS cast

[hazy flower]

when has it changed

wasnt it full bis

to do like that

[halcyon breach]

Idk

I've done it all season

[hazy flower]

same

[wind flicker]

The thing is, in the APL it sends WW even on 2 OP stacks, which doesnt seem right

[shadow ibex]

the difference is minor

[hazy flower]

and my logs are more than fine

xd

[wind flicker]

Thats what i meant

I would argue u lose nothing by sending atleast 1 OP before it to proc a free OP

[shadow ibex]

but it isn't, its only if the CS cooldown is >7

[wind flicker]

Thats what we were talking about

[shadow ibex]

it has 4 casts of that vs 72 OPs. if it was always prioing WW over OP

it would be a lot more than 4 of that instance

[wind flicker]

But that is what we were talking about ^^

That specific scenario

[shadow ibex]

yes and it makes sense because its a free WW that won't cause you to miss the line that is higher up that says to WW only in CS

[wind flicker]

That doesnt change the fact that if you send 1 overpower before it, that you proc another overpower bringing you back to 2 stacks, rather than sending WW on 2 stacks of OP gaining you nothing since you can't go to 3

Thats the point we were argueing

[shadow ibex]

and it will do that in most cases

thats why there's 72 casts of OP and only 4 of that scenario occuring

[wind flicker]

That's why i said that we specifically talked about the odd ones out where it does prioritise it

Not all the times where it doesnt

[astral yarrow]

APL uses WW inside CS and otherwise holds it if theres less than 7 seconds to CS to make sure it can fit 2 WWs inside the window

you can see that it happens about once per sim that it inevitable reaches the furthest down WW line where the only conditional is storm of swords

The entire point of it is to get a bigger ToM buff regularly and WW CD mostly aligns with it

[frigid lava]

tiptac is crashing... any replacement for htis?

[hazy flower]

I was doing that earlier in the season but it was pure feelycrafting, out of laziness I decided to just follow prio at all times in .6

[latent moss]

ye i kinda want them to do this and remove am

for both arms nad fury

[shadow ibex]

i like pressing button and seeing CD go down

i would just rather rage not be in situation it is in

AM allows cool things in execute

https://tenor.com/view/just-thinking-of-the-potential-mind-blown-imagine-awesome-picture-it-gif-13777308

[astral yarrow]

I don’t remember the gain, but I don’t think it was massive

[nova marsh]

I still hate smolderon

[nova marsh]

Hello yes

Does anyone have that exe cat meme

[terse osprey]

Which build is better for M+ WW or BS?

or i guess easier you could say too

[smoky kayak]

• Easier probably WW, but that may be subjective
• Better would be Bladestorm; Warlord's torment variant for more priority damage or the blademaster's variant for huge AoE pull blast keys

[terse osprey]

between the BS ones which is the go to usually?

I dont run alot of high keys normally

[sour nest]

Am I fucked if I come back to war for next season? Since I don’t have the Lego and only like 3 kills worth of BLP

[wind flicker]

Usually you’d play warlords tormernt with massacre and executioners precision for higher keys

Like archimtiros said

Pretty much no other build see’s any gameplay on higher keys

[wind flicker]

Definitely not a great spot to start off with 😬

[sour nest]

Yeah RIP

[shadow ibex]

you still got a few kills before patch

[nova marsh]

I'm still trying

But tbh it's for the memes

[terse osprey]

When is next patch again?

[halcyon breach]

22nd/23rd

Na/Eu

[frigid lava]

that's s4

[nova marsh]

I tried for memes

I got it

LOL

[halcyon breach]

Which is also the next patch

[shadow ibex]

just reinstalled sekiro while i wait for the patch bout to get fuckin bodied

[ebon fern]

What was the max value of bonegrinder in shadowlands?

[reef glade]

Like 220%

or sum

[teal fossil]

yeah it went pretty hard

[nova marsh]

Dumb question

do we still do the current exe optimization in s4?

[livid cloak]

No

[nova marsh]

Oh thank god

[livid cloak]

Will be back to exe/exe/exe or op/ ms

[nova marsh]

I'm so happy thanks to that

I really don't like it