fury

[formal ravine]

It's additive

[bitter palm]

dr isnt additive and never has been

[chrome wraith]

it's been a fury issue for the last few expansions lmfao

[south kayak]

Fury has a dps issue

[olive wraith]

It’s a general dps que issue. It isn’t exclusively fury

[echo rapids]

Is this some kind of record for DK notes in one patch cycle, they cannot get frost right

[bitter palm]

full DR = 1 - (1 - first DR) * (1 - second Dr) * (1- third DR) * ...

u lose a surprising amount of dr when stacking

like warpaint er sr

[south kayak]

They finished that few weeks ago, it’s just small tuning and bug fixes now

[chrome wraith]

Do i have to be arguing that this is an exclusive issue to fury to draw attention to the fact that it is in fact an issue? lol

we have 0 utility

if numbers aint good, you aint comin

[south kayak]

Not again

[formal ravine]

We don't have 0 utility for the fights dude

[bitter palm]

not again

[formal ravine]

We have 0 utility for the group

[bitter palm]

util talk

[formal ravine]

We can still CC , but we don't off heal others, we don't cr, we don't bl

[modest condor]

just like every other dps spec

[chrome wraith]

Rallying Cope

[south kayak]

https://tenor.com/view/donald-duck-sleep-gif-12073235593935901891

[formal ravine]

No ignore rally but when it comes to stops we do have stops

[olive wraith]

You’re saying fury doesn’t get invited

[formal ravine]

You got an aoe stun, a single target stun, a fear

[olive wraith]

Everyone doesn’t get invited

[formal ravine]

Utility wise we struggle towards our allies more

[chrome wraith]

If you have lust and buffs you're getting brought if you're middle of the pack

[south kayak]

Forget about lust

Delete it from your mind

[dense elbow]

Oh we doing this again?

[bitter palm]

yes

[olive wraith]

I didn’t pick bm this season

[bitter palm]

apparently

[dense elbow]

Are we on the AoE combatress yet?

or the cleanse?

[echo rapids]

How many dps specs still have significant group healing?

[bitter palm]

not yet

give it some time

we will get there

[formal ravine]

Boomie, retri come to mind easily

[south kayak]

Little

[dense elbow]

Wait, the hybrid specs can heal?

no way

[echo rapids]

Shaman don’t anymore

[bitter palm]

legit only thing we need is a rally buff in 5 man content

[chrome wraith]

So many C!U!C!K chair enjoyers in here. what has blizzard done to you

[bitter palm]

and maybe safeguard

[south kayak]

https://tenor.com/view/howlers-den-gasp-shock-star-trek-gif-498338148729931701

[modest condor]

tell that to everybody that played enhance before tww lmao

[south kayak]

[olive wraith]

Warrior is mandatory for phys comp

[chrome wraith]

Enh was goated in dflight tf

[dense elbow]

https://tenor.com/view/shh-cats-gif-14317670277085954258

[formal ravine]

wasn't enha before the god comp in df actually fine ?

[chrome wraith]

phys comp LOL

[formal ravine]

I think it fell behind when aug came out

[bitter palm]

ye same key level as "meta comp"

[south kayak]

Enhance was trash in m+
For the longest time, do y’all not remember how bad enhances aoe was in legion?

[dense elbow]

Legion was a generation ago tho

[south kayak]

It was absolute dogshit

[chrome wraith]

you mean the 2 groups in the entire world in the top 100 running full phys?

[dense elbow]

let us let legion rest

[south kayak]

Bfa was trash too

I don’t remember SL

[dense elbow]

Good

it is better that way

[lilac osprey]

dps shaman in general was trash in BFA

[chrome wraith]

blizzard got that stockholm syndrome balancing

[modest condor]

doing the same keylevels as the meta comp apparently doesnt matter

[bitter palm]

people are just sheep

[south kayak]

Actually SL enha was like 5 target capped

[bitter palm]

legit proven like

[south kayak]

Like fury

[bitter palm]

9000 times

[chrome wraith]

yeah bro it's just the sheeple keeping the numbers low

justice for odyn's fury

[lilac osprey]

they decided to try target capping almost everyone in SL

[formal ravine]

What was enha's proc in dragonflight season 2?

It was asencandce right?

[bitter palm]

bait used to be belieavable

[formal ravine]

they were so strong before Aug

[chrome wraith]

remember when they nerfed us for our damage in heroic dungeons?

[formal ravine]

They were playing storm build

[chrome wraith]

good times

[formal ravine]

And doing 2 button rotation

[turbid bay]

I mean it happened this season lobo is using slayer and beating thane users in dungeons

[dense elbow]

I 'member

[formal ravine]

And if they procced ascendance they peaked

[south kayak]

Enha was 5 target capped until they got Tempest and then started owning

[chrome wraith]

surely midnight will be our expansion 😎

[olive wraith]

It can perform at the same level. Idk what more you want

[south kayak]

Future Narrator: it wasn’t

[chrome wraith]

Future Narrator: It was, until we overperformed in delves

[south kayak]

[olive wraith]

Bro I just did 10billion dps to a critter

Will we get nerfed?

[dense elbow]

You did this

[chrome wraith]

It's over boys

[south kayak]

Gg

[south kayak]

Please tell me it wasn’t with TB, we don’t need a nerf there

[formal ravine]

Remember the snails in neltharion's lair? You don't mess with those fuckers

[south kayak]

I hate neltharion lair

[olive wraith]

It was with Of

[formal ravine]

Really?

It was so good for warrior

plenty spell reflects

[dense elbow]

https://tenor.com/view/whizzy-imposterfox-smash-anime-smash-anime-girl-gif-21682300

[south kayak]

It’s over

[formal ravine]

last boss on lair spell reflect was your 2nd dps

[olive wraith]

Smf sleeper build too

[formal ravine]

Was pretty fun

[torpid elbow]

We don’t have a PTR channel?

[south kayak]

You can talk here about PTR

[bitter palm]

pre aug m+

was so good

fury was at the top

well spriest above everyone but fury was up there

and arms was powerful as well people just didnt know

cause they just played fury

[south kayak]

What’s that guys name

[bitter palm]

gellyfisk

was owning

[formal ravine]

Arms was so unfun to play though

[south kayak]

He was streaming with 2
Mages and a spriest

Just now

Dorki?

[bitter palm]

idk it was fun to me

sks explosion

[south kayak]

Is anyone watching Dorki

[bitter palm]

no

[formal ravine]

You liked playing around ignore pain and test of might ?

[south kayak]

Someone was posting his runs overalls

[torpid elbow]

Yes it’s some shit really 12% nerf on all spells 20% buff on breath and reduce breath by 0.8 sec from 1.0 seconds , I think maybe a 8-9 % nerf on all spells a 12 just seems to crazy to me

[dense elbow]

FDK changes

[south kayak]

12% wasn’t even enough lol, it’s still op

[olive wraith]

Does it? They were gapping everyone hard

[summer quail]

still not nerfed enough btw

[south kayak]

Needs another 12%

[summer quail]

fdk still insane

[dense elbow]

Last I saw they still do 8-9m overall, no?

[south kayak]

Actually 20% would be fair

[dense elbow]

[south kayak]

For fdk

[formal ravine]

Craziest nerf i recall was enha in DF, didn't they get literally a 25% aura nerf?

[south kayak]

MM too

[south kayak]

Yeah

[bitter palm]

what was unholy in castle nathria

[formal ravine]

Like holy fuck 25% on evereything has to be a record

[bitter palm]

mastery by 80% or somethinf

it was unreal

[summer quail]

supremezz did almost 10m and crit did 7.6m as fury thane

[bitter palm]

spec genuinely ceased to exist

after that nerf

[torpid elbow]

I feel like sometime fdk is kinda the same as fury but with ice haha

[dense elbow]

They still at that range, eh, and ye Thane been sitting in the 7-8m range for ages

[formal ravine]

But you cannot always compare yourself to the outlier, wether that's above or below.

[bitter palm]

tbf crit

plays with like

[south kayak]

How much if a nerf would FDK need to be 8m

[bitter palm]

120 ping

[south kayak]

20?

[bitter palm]

ure losing globals perma

or making mistakes in general

[summer quail]

yeah, tho i don't expect the average fdk to be as good as supremezz. very very good player

[dense elbow]

I doubt he is doing -20% dam from 120 ping tho

[bitter palm]

no shit

[torpid elbow]

I pull 120-140 frames and my dps is normal as anyone else’s ..

[bitter palm]

fdk is broken

[red berry]

120 ping isn't bad tbh

300-500 is where it starts to affect performance

[dense elbow]

Try 50 to 5k ping, not consistent

o7

[bright loom]

It’s very bad. If you are not boomer finger then you wont feel the diff

[red berry]

well if its bouncing

[bitter palm]

160 ping

is very noticeable

if u are used to 30

40

[formal ravine]

I play with 8 ping usually and still am -20%

[dense elbow]

you need that 0 ping, for that 25% boost

[south kayak]

I they should avoid aura nerfs for FDK and instead focus on specific spells. Revert Frostscythe back to 3 more damage with KM, nerf Glacial Advance. Nerf Exterminate and Reaper’s Mark to reduce the giga burst and idk what else needs to be nerfed after that.

[red berry]

they aura nerfed frost dks 12% today

[bitter palm]

time for

[red berry]

but buffed breath 20%

[bitter palm]

an another 12

[formal ravine]

Aura nerfs and buffs are such a lazy work and bandaid fix

[bitter palm]

they exist

if u are happy with the breakdown

and just want it to do more damage in general

[formal ravine]

Still lazy work

[bitter palm]

how

[twilit narwhal]

it's good if the profile is good

[bitter palm]

thats the point

[formal ravine]

Because most of the time it's not a one factor thing

[dense elbow]

I disagree with that take. If profile is where you want it at, aura mods are perfect

[south kayak]

^

It’s completely fine lol

[bitter palm]

ye i mean they made aura tuning

for htat

[south kayak]

How else are you gonna do it

[bitter palm]

so they can easily tune down a spec

[formal ravine]

Individually , so you do not end up with extreme things

like they targeted breath

Last week they buffed reapers mark by like 3 0%

now it's an aura nerf, how much of that was caused by that buff ?

[bitter palm]

yes but what if they want

reapers mark to do a fuck ton

so they buff it see where the profile is

then aura nerf

[south kayak]

FDKs burst is way too strong rn, if this comes out like this, it’s gonna get gutted exactly like fury did in the first few weeks of NP if there are fights with short living adds

You just wait lol

[wheat kayak]

i found a small, bad data amount of parses running this in keys doing like 500k more dps than standard than build

[bitter palm]

reapers mark damage reduced by 4000%

[summer quail]

i don't think it will. fdk burst might be really good, but it doesn't come out as fast as ours did

[wheat kayak]

doing some dummy testing rn but if theres already discussion pinned/linked lmk

[bitter palm]

loboz detected

[south kayak]

What? It absolutely does, press pillar and reapers

[bitter palm]

no ss and wrath and fury

[south kayak]

Wait 3 seconds

[bitter palm]

bro is unhinged

[south kayak]

Bam

[vernal laurel]

Been trying something similar out, I quite like it

[formal ravine]

That's like season 1 pre nerf flashbacks

[wheat kayak]

only reason i looked is cuz the buffs today only affect slayer

[bitter palm]

ye and they will explode

[bright loom]

Reck and bladestorm

[bitter palm]

same way we did

[wheat kayak]

ww and bladestorm damage lmao

what a joke

[dense elbow]

99% of cases, it is more how pulls are done and how ppl get to do the damage, than the build itself being better.

[summer quail]

reapers still has to proc. ours was literally 1.5globals. fdk is like 2 globals slower

[formal ravine]

Well the WW is meatcleaver buff, it affects thane to o

[south kayak]

The burst is still too strong, even on ST though

[young swan]

the meat cleaver buff is insane

[wheat kayak]

odyns fury works better if the tank isnt pulling around target cap i assume thats why aggrogated it looks stranger?

[bitter palm]

reck troar ava bs of

[wheat kayak]

from today?

[bitter palm]

everything died mid bs tho

[young swan]

yes

[bitter palm]

usually

[formal ravine]

yeh meat cleaver got 15%

[dense elbow]

It is all about if the tank keeps you in combat with 5t at all times, and there is no downtime, than anything.

[bitter palm]

if u had people doing damage

[south kayak]

I don’t think there’s a spec that can outburst fdk aside from MM, and both nerf nerfs lol

[summer quail]

yeah maybe, but i don't see them getting nerfed too hard. no raidfights that they "ruin" like fury in nerubar

[bitter palm]

depends on dimensius

[summer quail]

tru tru

[bitter palm]

if they are too good on dimensius they will explode

[south kayak]

They should get nerfed on aoe, not single target for the most part

[edgy widget]

+10%, or 18.18% more damage depending on how you want to look at it

[bitter palm]

regardless of other fights or m+

[formal ravine]

I meant the buff percent wise not the actual increase i didn't do maths

[edgy widget]

Yeah, 55 -> 65 is +10

[foggy canopy]

has apl's been implemented into simc yet?

[formal ravine]

It was 50 wasn't it ?

[south kayak]

55

[formal ravine]

Lmao why do i recall 50

[south kayak]

No clue

[formal ravine]

me neither ffs

[dense elbow]

50 is a rounder number, I guess

[formal ravine]

Yeah probably

Subconscious shit

[summer quail]

coz it was 50 in DF at some point i think

[olive wraith]

It was 50 in Df for a bit

Giga 5t

[summer quail]

pretty crazy that improved WW is almost as strong as Sweeping strikes now tho

[south kayak]

I have an interesting question. Has WW cleave ever been higher than 65%?

[smoky vale]

https://youtu.be/m9VIFC8EqKk?si=Yhkfho0eMMK4pRL4
@summer quail @gleaming siren @clever path @sullen dove

[dense elbow]

ours still got mutliple GCD costs, theirs do not. So meh?

[south kayak]

Isn’t this the highest the cleave has ever been?

[formal ravine]

imma go check wiki it's usually there

[south kayak]

I don’t recall it being 65 before

[edgy widget]

at one time it was 100% damage lol, though it only applied to BT and Rampage

[summer quail]

yeah but theirs isn't perma uptime and only hits 1 other target

[dense elbow]

We had 100% on MC?

when was that

[south kayak]

Since legions rework?

[edgy widget]

that was Legion

The MoP/WoD version also made RB hit multiple targets for 100% damage

[formal ravine]

found that lmao

Cataclysm Patch 4.0.1 (2010-10-12): Limitation of 4 targets removed, now only cause 75% of weapon damage (was 100%).

[south kayak]

Oh for some reason I thought it was 55% in legion

[bitter palm]

ye

it is

[edgy widget]

it was reduced to 50% in 7.1

[south kayak]

Ok so that’s why I thought it was 50%

[bitter palm]

so like legion sweeping strikes

or wait was it passive

idk old wow

[formal ravine]

good old days ...

Shadowlands Patch 9.1.5 (2021-11-02): Whirlwind is no longer maximum target capped and instead deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets.

[edgy widget]

the very first version of Meat Cleaver was in Cata and it just caused WW/Cleave to increase WW/Cleave damage

[south kayak]

It’s the same except it had one stack only

[formal ravine]

That was the time that we spammed WW after bladestorm right ?

[vernal laurel]

Yo, we are getting closer to fdks that just got a 12% nerf! Letsgoo

[south kayak]

Fury vs 2 of the best PTR m+ specs

[dense elbow]

5% of FDK dam is crits btw

and hunter

[olive wraith]

Isnt this also pre buffs

[dense elbow]

Just sayin' Crit leading there

[wheat kayak]

ok so after some irl testing this seems kinda based

[vernal laurel]

This is after buffs

[south kayak]

That’s post

[summer quail]

irl testing? xDD

[south kayak]

What do you mean by that

[wheat kayak]

its about on par with thane rn, and with the buffs we just got on ptr build slayer fury might be feelin pretty good in keys

dummies and some pulls in resil 14

[bright loom]

He went and got the meat cleavers

[vernal laurel]

True, but a spec getting a +12% nerf and we getting only buffs for weeks on end should prob be closer

[wheat kayak]

with both

[dense elbow]

Sure, it will feel pretty good and fine

[storm birch]

Scuffed 12 Eco-Dome

[dense elbow]

Aug aug aug!

[summer quail]

slayer on par with thane? maan you are capping

[dense elbow]

[south kayak]

That spec needed more than 20% nerf lol

Missed the mark

[dense elbow]

What do you mean, you trying to say that Thane is somehow superior? You hero-spec-ist!

rude!

[wheat kayak]

do bladestorm buffs apply to ravager as well since its a choice node?

[dense elbow]

Admins!

[edgy widget]

this is why tuning isn't done based on community feedback
cause half yall have no idea what you're talking about lol

[edgy widget]

no

[wheat kayak]

booooo

[formal ravine]

No they do not get tuned together

[wheat kayak]

turbo boooo

[narrow fossil]

Nice patch mage & warlocks that were way better than warr got buffe and warr got nerfed with mystic touvh nerfed 3%

[summer quail]

correct. big slayerphobic

[edgy widget]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-bait-tom-hardy-mad-max-gif-5055384

[dense elbow]

Ravager gets more powerful by the rotationals you cast instead of spinning being stronger

[edgy widget]

lmao

[rose bay]

xde

[wheat kayak]

i was slayerphobic till i saw some cop parses and tried it for a few mins lol

[rose bay]

I knew it

[wheat kayak]

cope*

[south kayak]

Someone didn’t read the entire post

[rose bay]

the second they buffed mt, once it got pushed back to 5% now its a nerf

[wheat kayak]

mage tier sets got ripped in half lol

thats why they got aura buffs

[dense elbow]

The mystictouch revert makes me happy - this patch has just a ton of wins

[vernal laurel]

btw, any idea why they have not added the Halls crit trinket to the vendor? I cant do any testing if I do not have the item

[dense elbow]

[summer quail]

to make you do a bunch of halls keys to test content more. smart plan of their ngl

[narrow fossil]

Whhy blizz doesnt increase target cap when ppl are pulling 25 mobs in one pull?

[vernal laurel]

Genuis, must be the Jailer in charge

[south kayak]

It means it’s not getting nerfed because there’s not enough data

It’s a good thing guys!

[vernal laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/wow-the-jailer-sylvanas-death-gif-16467430930443973800

[formal ravine]

You say that as if fury gives a shit about crit

[dense elbow]

I mean, 20k crit is 20k crit

[vernal laurel]

We generally do not true, but that trinket gives a really good amount of it

[south kayak]

Anyone gives a shit about 20k crit, even my grandma

[vernal laurel]

And it lines up with our cds, no other trinket does that this patch

[formal ravine]

That doesn't automatically make it great

[south kayak]

It does

[modest condor]

makes it better than most other trinkets

[wheat kayak]

it does lol

[bright loom]

But the trade off is 1 second off not adhd spinning and jumping

[vernal laurel]

Well i dont know, cause I cant test the hecking thing

[rose bay]

isnt c4 trinket also a crit stat stick

[south kayak]

Crit trinket + spear

We cooking

[formal ravine]

nether prism on max stacks is 72k str

[wheat kayak]

wait is it old dungeon week now on ptr i was gonna install for returning dungeon week

i thought next week

[vernal laurel]

Spear cooks are always interesting, till you actually test it and you dont even notice its being used

[formal ravine]

even on half stacks it's 36k str

[south kayak]

Wait a minute, frost dk wants that trinket. Never mind, nerf it.

[modest condor]

no it's tww dungeons on ptr

[wheat kayak]

yeah ok cool, next week we trying all our shit and learning old dungeez big excite

[south kayak]

Str doesn’t scale well for us

I said the word

[formal ravine]

... what?

[urban condor]

Is there any 1.5min cd trinket next patch?

[modest condor]

1 point in strength is like half as strong as 1 point in secondary

[south kayak]

Yeah

[formal ravine]

It's been str > any secondary for 6 patches now at least

[narrow fossil]

So fury will be the worst dps spec in every patch of this xpac?

[south kayak]

Yes

[narrow fossil]

in m+

[south kayak]

Next

[wheat kayak]

depends on the content its been pre good in raid so far i think

[bright loom]

Think They are decent in delves

[modest condor]

no

[wheat kayak]

i just hate mythic raiding conceptually, the fights are fun the activity is ass

[vernal laurel]

One of the worst yes, thats the standard here

[lyric panther]

was great in dynamic duos

[edgy widget]

its all about who you do it with

[wheat kayak]

yeah exactly tho, 20 man is ass

[narrow fossil]

And rly good in world quest too

[wheat kayak]

finding 20 ppl that you vibe with, that are good enough to raid, and have the same schedule

is insane

[vernal laurel]

10 man would be so great, would make me and basicly all my friends raid again

[edgy widget]

10p raids would be really hard to balance, since there are so few slots

[south kayak]

10 is not enough for all classes

[wheat kayak]

who caressssss tho

[edgy widget]

the people not getting invited

[wheat kayak]

fuck the balance let me play the gameeeee

[edgy widget]

the groups that can't find enough tanks

[south kayak]

Lmfao

[wheat kayak]

idgaf if top 20 guilds class stack

[edgy widget]

its not about stacking

[wheat kayak]

at all

[south kayak]

You don’t, the devs do

It’s better for the game

[edgy widget]

its about having 5-6 slots for DPS and 5 of those go to necessary utility/raid buffs

[narrow fossil]

WHhy is ahrder to baalance 10 over 20?

[edgy widget]

there are less than 20 classes in the game, but more than 10

[wheat kayak]

so take raid buffs out those are stupid af too

[formal ravine]

Lol.. then why are you playing wow?

[edgy widget]

if they ever reduce, it'll probably be to 15 player

[inner zinc]

i wouldnt hate if they spread those out a little, maybe warrior would get a little love

[edgy widget]

warrior already has a raid buff lmao

[south kayak]

What’s going to happen if everyone lost their buffs? Like it was in Legion.

[wheat kayak]

and yeah idc i play warr and sham im gettin in kekw

[south kayak]

Class stacking?

[edgy widget]

its not just raid buffs either, it's lock gate, druid roar, monk rop, etc and so on

[wheat kayak]

keep em or dont

[inner zinc]

i wouldnt hate warrior speed roar shout

[south kayak]

Speeding Cry

[wheat kayak]

we just couldnt play without those no1 ever killed a boss without a lock gate

or a rop

[charred estuary]

Brez that works like intervene lmao

[wheat kayak]

lmao

[formal ravine]

Wasn't kill jaeden done with 38 rogues then ?

[edgy widget]

Yeah, but the fact that you don't care is why someone else has to 😛

[oblique trail]

There is a massive difference between having a gate or not on some fights

[south kayak]

This is the first time I’m hearing of this lol

[fiery kraken]

Need a bres cry, tears bring ally back to life

[formal ravine]

Kil jaeden race to world first had 5 rogues dude..

[south kayak]

Interesting

[oblique trail]

This tier especially, not having gate on Sprocketmonger is a different boss

[narrow fossil]

Do you think in keys wiht big pulls tanks can do more dmg than fury?

[formal ravine]

There was literally 0 mages, 0 dh, 0 DK and 0 monks, that's how bad stacking was

[edgy widget]

maybe if the Fury is afk

[south kayak]

You can’t even play sprocket without gate can you lol

[wheat kayak]

they already do

[inner zinc]

warrior battle res would be like When Lord Calgar told Titus to get up. Just shout at them to get up or face your disappointement

[vernal laurel]

It would, but it would revitalise the raiding scene. Very few people actually interact with Mythic because of the very strict constraints

[chrome python]

Am I getting simtrapped if Raidbots is showing fucking Champion's Spear as the highest DPS option

[wheat kayak]

like big pull after 1st boss of priory

[chrome python]

Feel like I am a little bit

[wheat kayak]

you can get sat on by a tank

[south kayak]

No wonder they brought it back lol

[oblique trail]

You're not, both Roar and Spear are fairly close to each other

[formal ravine]

Look at this insane variety, 10 slots occupied by 2 classes

[oblique trail]

Roar is typically just picked even in ST simply due to the fact you don't care about aiming it and its ease of use

[formal ravine]

@south kayak

[edgy widget]

constraining it harder to a smaller group size wouldn't help, and the reason they don't interact isn't because of the time commitments more than anything

[south kayak]

[edgy widget]

just trust me, this has been discussed for years and years, it's not a new idea lol

[formal ravine]

Fun days lmao

[narrow fossil]

Why blizz should balance around world first guild and not around 99'99% players?

[chrome python]

Oh, cool. Only asking because I run Roar without the CD talent and R.A and wanted to know if I'm absolutely griefing or not

[oblique trail]

Reckless Abandon though is not really recommended to run

[wheat kayak]

and people wont stop talking about it because its objectively better if you just want to be able to play the game and are ok with the consequences of haviing to actively problem solve the downsides

[edgy widget]

ok whatever you say

[inner zinc]

tbf you are playing warrior, so at that point it really doesnt matter anymore

[chrome python]

Really? Hmm. Wouldn't thought that having everyone on a nice 1.5 min CD would be preferable.

[edgy widget]

not gonna waste time arguing with a wall lol

[azure tulip]

How does one difficulty make you not be able to play the game

[formal ravine]

But nobody's stopping you from 10 man raiding, it's absurd to demand to have mythic raiding cut to your designs and fuck everyone else.

[azure tulip]

You’re talking about mythic 20. One difficulty

Half the player base doesn’t even get aotc let alone kills in mythic

[south kayak]

More than half

[wheat kayak]

"everyone else" as participation dwindles tier after tier for years

[edgy widget]

participation drops in a game that gets continually older, gee I wonder why

[formal ravine]

So you want to have the rewards of mythic raiding without the effort that comes with it ?

[vernal laurel]

Just seems like a lot of people are interested in raiding, but not interacting and linking up with 20 people. I have been hearing over many years now from different people that they would get back into raiding if it went back to 10

[formal ravine]

Wether that effort is in gathering players, organizing shit or whatever.

[edgy widget]

its called a attrition and it isn't a new concept lol

[azure tulip]

Too many people just want to play the videos that are “meta” archi, arguing with a wall is tiring

[south kayak]

Whatever he’s saying is just insanely selfish

[wheat kayak]

i mean other content fluxuates depending on qaulity, raid just trends down

[edgy widget]

I'm sure you have, but that doesn't mean "its just objectively better" lol

• there are some aspects that would be better, yes
• there are other aspects that would be worse
  you can't just cherrypick the ones you like and ignore the others saying "it doesn't matter"

[wheat kayak]

more ppl did keys this season than how many of the last ones?

[formal ravine]

But m+ is an entirely different section of the game

When i am doing raid i am not looking at the data of how many are pvping..

[wheat kayak]

i mean it doesn't matter obviously means, "The trade offs would be worth it to me" obviously

just being pedantic

[formal ravine]

You can't have every aspect of the game cut out for you?

[vapid tiger]

I sometimes dont have enough rage to enrage on pull. I hit reck, charge in, hit avatar/etc then sometimes I need an auto or another hit to get it. Am I messing that up?

[vernal laurel]

Not claimed it would be objectively better, just that it would be a big boost for the raiding scene as many people would try it again (or for the first time)

I think you responded to the wrong person here btw

[formal ravine]

Avatar before you charge

[chrome python]

so the long version made short is "we run AM so we can reckless more rather than having one big reckless consistently every 1.5 minutes"?

[wheat kayak]

but why is it more valid to keep it that way for you than to change it for me, if its just two preferences warring with eachother?

[formal ravine]

Because if we go by i guess some common sense they probably gathered enough data to understand that this is probably a sweet spot ?

[edgy widget]

while smaller raid groups would be easier to field, they're also more restrictive, which does lead to increased complication - not the least of which the shifting ratio of tanks/healers/dps, as well as Blizzard being hessitant about breaking up already established groups (same reason they've never moved to a global release)

But ignoring all of that, the main reason people don't raid has nothing to do with group size, it's simply due to the time commitment. It's not just restricted to Mythic either - as pointed out, the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't even get AOTC

[wheat kayak]

that doesnt seem like a valid counter arguement, explain why the logistical difficulties of 20 people make it better than dropping it to 10 would for accessibility, sans the individual

[edgy widget]

no, the other person that you piggybacked off of did, which is why I used it as an example

both of you just keep saying "10 would be better" while ignoring the obvious downsides lol

[wheat kayak]

they gathered that data in what? cata and mists of pandaria

when the fights were more accessible generally so carrying a roster with a diaspora of skill wasnt as impactful as it is now

[inner zinc]

wouldnt 10man mythic raid size worsen the meta problem since you would need some classes that bring more to compensate for fewer bodies?

[edgy widget]

again, if they were to reduce (and I don't think they will anytime soon), it would probably be 15, because Blizzard has been very clear about their intent of wanting most raid groups to field most classes... which 10 player limitations do not enable

[formal ravine]

Let me ask you something, what percent of the population do you think actually raids mythic ?

[wheat kayak]

i think the call for 10 man is an examination of that thought process itself

[edgy widget]

yep

[vernal laurel]

Ok? I was not of the same opnion though, i was just taliking about how I would see it as fun for me and my friends

[edgy widget]

I know you're not the same person, but you were continuing their argument

[spare steppe]

why can't rallying cry scale with group size 😦

[edgy widget]

and you did not offer any new argument of your own

[inner zinc]

brown class thats why

[wheat kayak]

yeah but these are game designer peevs not things that players actually care about in my personal opinion

[azure tulip]

Make sure you’re not popping reck before combat. It’s a thing now where it won’t count the rage you gain completely and take away a tick of it

[south kayak]

Untrue lol

[vapid tiger]

oh shit really? thanks

[edgy widget]

that's probably because players are stupid, they don't know what they want and are usually just as upset by the time they get it

[echo rapids]

The healer Cooldown changes definitely offer a route forwards to that

[fleet pasture]

just heroic throw on pull - problem solved 😄

[wheat kayak]

yeah everyone had a great time with locked in covenants

[edgy widget]

players also tend to be extremely self serving - focusing on what would be better for them specifically, rather than what would be good for the game as a whole

whereas designers need to think about multiple groups of players, not just one

[vapid tiger]

haha gotta find that one

[south kayak]

You’re jumping to a completely different topic

[vernal laurel]

I was not arguing, i was literally just talking about how I have heard lots of interest for 10-man and what people think about 20-man

But its all good

[inner zinc]

i dont even hide how self serving I am

[wheat kayak]

how are people deeply entrenched in keeping things the way they are, because its best for them, not doing the exact same thing as the "dumb players" you're refering to?

[edgy widget]

the irony in that players still lambasted them even after they weren't locked
nobody ever said every idea will necessarily be a good one

[wheat kayak]

it seems like its much more likely to be a wash than ruining things either way, just different

[inner zinc]

personally, id rather they spent the energy at other places

[edgy widget]

nobody here ever suggested keeping things the way they are lol

[wheat kayak]

its not how large team design works the team that would change that wouldnt be working in other places

[south kayak]

That’s what they’re doing now though? They’ve stopped with the “borrowed” power

[inner zinc]

?

[edgy widget]

no they didn't, and "borrowed power" is just another buzzword that people latch on to

[wheat kayak]

are you not actively taking the position that reducing raid size would be worse for the game, or are you just reiterating that's what blizzard thinks?

[edgy widget]

no, I didn't state that whatsoever

[vernal laurel]

Makes me wonder why I have a corruption head enchant, a mega juiced belt with titan powers and until lately a big ring that gave me big stats

[graceful ruin]

tbh I'd love 10 man mythic and would actually do more raid but I recognise it'd be a bad idea for the game and so I'll simply not get to mythic raid. it is what it is

[formal ravine]

[graceful ruin]

not everything needs to be made for me and my needs

[edgy widget]

in fact my very first response made it quite clear that a change to 15 player would be the better middle ground, but that going all the way down to 10 would create unique issues

[wheat kayak]

yeah this expansions thing about adding a new weekly grind every patch for a new borrowed power item is turbo cringe

locked out slots are so fun

[formal ravine]

It's a good way to nerf the raid indirectly

[south kayak]

I should have clarified. I meant the specific systems they had like covenant powers, HoA, etc. all which take a lot more time and energy than those.

[edgy widget]

counterpoint: by the time the items were introduced, the slots were already effectively locked for most players that had been keeping up with the game

[inner zinc]

I like borrowed power. Most of the time its stuff that becomes new permanent additions

[wheat kayak]

fair enough

[woven valley]

All power on wow is borrowed lol 😂 take off your gear and see how far you get in raid or even in open world

[thick fossil]

[formal ravine]

Plus isn't this borrowed power a bit better in a way ? Cus it's even across the board. Covenants had unique effects per class

That kind of borrowed power is much harder to balance

[edgy widget]

borrowed power effects are good for the game, giving people new things to chase and work on is good

at the end of the game that's all WoW (or most MMOs) are really about - it's just a series of treadmills keeping people chasing the next shiny thing

[vernal laurel]

Same boat here, I do however think a very large population is in our boat

[inner zinc]

untalent everything

[wheat kayak]

i just think they need to be more creative with it

[edgy widget]

the problem is when those pieces of power become too overbearing (overflowing into the next tier) or the grinds become too oppressive (artifact power)

[echo rapids]

The astronaut “always has been” meme

[graceful ruin]

I like borrowed power if it isn't done in a dumbass way like covenants and conduit power and all that. getting new unique stuff to play with is fun :)

[wheat kayak]

it feels very samey and trite to just basically do the same thing over and over, especially when there's no challenge allowed to be associated with it becuase we dont want to gate acquisition

[inner zinc]

or when its tied to cosmetics

[edgy widget]

that's the other thing - borrowed power effects, when done right, give players new and ideally interesting gameplay options

[wheat kayak]

shoulda gutted the ring after s1

[edgy widget]

for all its other faults, Corruption was a huge success in that area - completely changing several aspects of gameplay

[vernal laurel]

Oh god, Torghast

[edgy widget]

for the first time, players had to think about juggling power with negative effects
later on, players got the ability to fine tune their stats (arms stacking max haste corruptions)

[echo rapids]

It’s why this iteration is so disappointing

[edgy widget]

I agree - this version was the most boring it could have been, just flat power with no gameplay value

[formal ravine]

But down to the core every season is exactly that ? Aren't you in a loop of getting gear, upgrading, doing teh content you enjoy and in the end it's just gone in 6 months? AT least they are enhancing that 6 month experience with certain aspects that may keep it interesting for longer.

[celest sierra]

Archi was ur take on these buffs ? Yay ? Nay?

[wheat kayak]

yeah but most of that is doing stuff thats fun and engaging

[formal ravine]

Yeah and maybe they can be better at adding more fun and engaging stuff

[wheat kayak]

spamming lvl 1 delves, doing 1-2 mast runs of visions

is not that

[formal ravine]

It's not like we had every single season a raid buff, a belt/ring or head enchants

[wheat kayak]

doing any kind of delve is not that lol

[formal ravine]

Yeah but what you are presenting i think stems from your dislike of delves more than anything ?

[inner zinc]

https://tenor.com/view/the-big-lebowski-thats-like-your-opinion-man-gif-15076479

[formal ravine]

For example last season the ring was not delve tied, did you like that ?

[edgy widget]

they're good, buffing up Slayer's multitarget capabilities to better keep up with Thane/Colossus (while not overtaking them) is great IMO. I am very hopeful for a season where the #2 option is only a few % behind the frontrunner

I do think Warriors may be a little weak in the ST department, especially in raid, but I don't expect to be top tier either - I'm just hoping for around average

[echo rapids]

Blizzard always has to balance interesting player decisions with the drive towards optimization

[inner zinc]

lot of people like delves and visions

[wheat kayak]

no that was even worse!

[south kayak]

I believe HoA would have been received better if we hadn’t come from Legion and they made all classes worse by losing most of the weapon passives/abilities from Legion

[graceful ruin]

I think delves just need to be nerfed tbh I don't wanna be doing delves as far into the season as I have to lol

[formal ravine]

I personally dislike delves so much my belt is 694, and it stays there at this point.

But i am not saying i hate the belt cus i hate delves

[celest sierra]

So Thane still leads m+ and slayer raid

[median falcon]

delves are amazing

[vernal laurel]

Aquisition has always been one of Blizzard biggest problems. A bi weekly rotating corruption vendor was not it, neither is spaming lvl 1 delves

[plush zephyr]

I’m biggest delve hater ever, but, they are good for the game.

[vernal laurel]

Tricky part to solve

[formal ravine]

Got a guildy that did the 1000 delve achievement and i've done a total of 50 in the past 12 months...

So it's a preference i guess?

[compact knot]

cant wait for fury to be hidden op next tier

and it gets a 30% nerf

[median falcon]

gdamn , im only at 730 or something I think

[echo rapids]

Haha same he’s got like 13 alts

[plush zephyr]

Blew my mind that when you finish a t11 it tells you to do a Mythic dungeon and gives you a key. Very healthy for the game

[graceful ruin]

in heroic dungeons you mean?

[inner zinc]

agreed

[compact knot]

cap

this change makes thane big ngl

also slayer fury

im playing that next tier

[formal ravine]

Plus aren't delves the simple result of people requesting more content they can do alone ?

[junior gale]

they will revert the OF torment just to take it away again

[formal ravine]

As much as i hate delves , they did solve part of this request.

[compact knot]

delves crank

[edgy widget]

more or less yeah

and delves aren't bad content

[median falcon]

Delve is like turn brain off, dependable means of upgrading gear, no drama no talking or having too cooperate with anyone. Love it. I go into mythic plus even tho I got 3k and it gives me agita

[formal ravine]

Definitely they achieved what they were introduced for, i personally hate them so i simply avoid them.

[echo rapids]

Would love for them to balance the roles in delves a little more, any spec that could tank had it way easier

[graceful ruin]

but do you like delves because they're good content or because they're an easy way to get gear?

[south kayak]

Delves are basically endgame content for casuals that do world quests, farm mounts, cosmetics etc..

[celest sierra]

Like with more content what do people want ? Blizz gives us content but people always ask for more ? What kind of content yall want lol

[graceful ruin]

imo if it's the second then they aren't good (not overall for the game but for you I guess lmao)

[median falcon]

Both, I literally delve is decompress from how stressful mythic plus is

[compact knot]

plate melee are kings in delves

[median falcon]

to*

[formal ravine]

Personally i have only 1 complaint about delves, since they were mostly targetting people that want to do solo content i would prefer if the delve gear is consistently slightly inferior to mythic gear.

[compact knot]

doing a delve on my mage is hell though

[edgy widget]

not every piece of content needs to be for every player, but there should be some amount of incentive for every player to do every piece of content

it's a tricky needle to thread. You don't want PvE players to feel like they have to PvP, but you do want to reward them if they choose to invest time there

[formal ravine]

Delve trinkets this season were a bit too strong given they cap at hero track.

[graceful ruin]

tbh I'm annoyed by anything that means i can't just get on and do some m+ because I need to be farming some other shit

[edgy widget]

same thing with Delves - they're meant for more casual players who want more soloable content, which means they're not going to scale up to M Raid rewards, but you still want to reward (to a point) M Raiders for doing them, without making them feel like they have to do them

[woven valley]

Real and true

[graceful ruin]

if I'm looking to decompress I'll go set up a board game but that's just me

[celest sierra]

I do say that Blizz should make max level Mythic gear obtainable through solo content

[inner zinc]

my take is a lot of the trinkets in M+ were dog so it made the delves one look good

[celest sierra]

Obviously make the content hard but the reward is max level mythic gear

[earnest canyon]

You are missing the fact that you can, in effect, pause the game... I sometimes take 1.5hrs to do a delve as I'll do 5mins here and there while on conf calls etc. And I don't let other wow players down

[formal ravine]

Yeah you might be right.

[junior gale]

I think delves are shit but if there are people that like em thats a W

[median falcon]

Yeah the waiting when you time crunched is rough for doing m plus, delve dont wait for anyone and at least you did something

[edgy widget]

and that's fine, not everything need to be for everyone

[junior gale]

yup

[oblique trail]

You will not be able to balance solo content in a way that it gives you mythic gear

[compact knot]

the amplifier sims as my actual bis for arms

[oblique trail]

Especially if it's something that's as frequent as delves

[celest sierra]

There was only maybe like 2 trinkets good this season from dungeons . Seaforium and signify

[echo rapids]

What’s your take on the role m+ has in the current raiding system? It feels fairly mandatory personally and I think for a lot of people

[graceful ruin]

after all there are some people who get to max level and then go level another character and that's just how they interact with the game

I'll never understand that but we can coexist

[formal ravine]

hence why i think they should alwysa be a tiny bit worse than mythic track, they serve the purpose of allowing a solo player to catch up, but being stronger i think defeats the purpose, but it could be a case of this seasons trinkets being not great as someone pointed out.

[compact knot]

i think they are meant to be weaker for a majority of specs

it just happened amplifier was pretty fucking strong on arms

[formal ravine]

Along with lens

Quite a few people ran both most of the season

[edgy widget]

I mean it kind of is to a point but the scaling system mitigates it - you don't really need to go very high if all you want is gear

[wheat kayak]

i could launch the nukes right here

[compact knot]

lens lost out to myth track house of cards

by like 10-20k

[edgy widget]

and as much as people love to bitch and moan about M+ tuning, if all your doing are weekly vault keys, none of it really matters, because the max reward level keys simply aren't that hard

[compact knot]

atleast for me

[celest sierra]

I think Blizz should seperate the gear . Raid gear = good for raiding

Dungeon gear = good for dungeons .

That can make tuning things so much better

[wheat kayak]

remove mythic gear make mythic raiding prestige challenge mode content instead of trying to spin plates balancing gear acquisition

[median falcon]

I don't think anyone arguing against Mythic raid having the best gear in game followed by dungeon and then delve but its how much better that matters if a trinket becomes mandatory

[echo rapids]

I was thinking more about time investment. Raid loggers will always be behind on gear without doing at least a handful of +10 keys a week

[wheat kayak]

less ilvl growth tier over tier makes the game infinitely easier to tune

[formal ravine]

Okay but why ? How is the naming the issue, you wanna call it prestige, it's currently called mythic. Is the naming the issue ?

[summer quail]

ya know after reading alot of these takes, i quite happy with what blizzard is doing system wise

[orchid dagger]

If M+ was like solo pvp queue where the rating was based off spec it would be a lot better

[edgy widget]

it sounds nice because it's clean and simple, but it would create a ton of trickle down issues

[edgy widget]

that is not going to happen lol, the playerbase would fall off a cliff

for better or worse, people play wow for the chase; without intrinsic rewards, players simply don't bother to engage with the content

[wheat kayak]

if you dont like playing the game dont play the game

gg

[echo rapids]

Although the renoun raid buffs sort of make that irrelevant I guess. Who cares if you miss out on a m+ vault slot that would be 1% gain when you get a 3% raid buff that week

[wheat kayak]

pressing the buttons is the fun part

i gues thats a hot take

[edgy widget]

good philosophy for killing your game lol

[graceful ruin]

we do like playing the game how it is though

[orchid dagger]

Slamradical proving pve players should never touch tuning levers ever

[graceful ruin]

we aren't the one who doesn't like it as it is (and as it will be)

[median falcon]

I think they did a good job with the overlap. Can grab a piece of gear from any content and use other content to upgrade it through token etc

[summer quail]

whether you like it or not, loot matters a shit ton. would not do mythic without it

[south kayak]

Same

[formal ravine]

How do you gear for raid then? Think of a team that has 20 people only, and no extras. Each boss drops 4 pieces of loot, that's 8 bosses nowadays so 32 pieces of loot per run. You have 20 people x 16 slots = 320 pieces . If you account for duplicates, and how much gear many people want, how do you ever gear up for raid ?

[edgy widget]

not really a PvE/PvP thing, more so a good example of why players and designers have different objectives

[wheat kayak]

its fine as it is, ive played more in DF and TWW than i did in like the last 5 expansions combined because theyve moved the game more in my direction

[celest sierra]

In dungeons your raid gear gets a debuff vise versa for dungeons in raid

[wheat kayak]

thats why im so emboldened there's blood in the water =3

[south kayak]

I wouldn’t even bother with turbo if it didn’t upgrade my gear lol

[echo rapids]

That would be deeply unpopular I think

[edgy widget]

left to their own devices, players only want to do what they personally want to do, and that's fine - nothing wrong with it at all
but its the designers job to make players want to do things

[wheat kayak]

i hated the turbo boost it felt like placebo dopamine dogshit

[formal ravine]

Brother at this point you've hated everything..

[celest sierra]

Using the raid difficulties they made . Normal into Hero into Mythic . This way also raids don’t become obsolete so early in the season

[keen sequoia]

Hi guysss

I just got my alt to 80, best way to get gear right now?

[formal ravine]

What are you doing in the game that's actually fun to you ?

[median falcon]

Only thing that is annoying is balancing around trinkets, don't know what is up with all these 2min trinkets coming up in season 3

[wheat kayak]

i just like doing keys and raid, and sometime arena, i don't really care about the bells and whistles for sure

[graceful ruin]

left to their own devices players would choose the easiest possible way to get gear and then complain that there isn't enough content once they have easily obtained the gear

or so I reckon

[wheat kayak]

i guess a very niche way of enjoying the game

[south kayak]

Absolutely

[graceful ruin]

what are the bells and whistles in this case?

[formal ravine]

Yes but in a week's time you can get roughly 64 pieces if no duplicates, you have 320 slots to fill up. People won't ever go mythic like that

[orchid dagger]

H > random battleground

[languid marsh]

its a fucking mmorpg who tf is saying shit like "remove gear lawwwwwwl"

[wheat kayak]

tho they keep making systemic design changes to cater more to me, so i dont think im as outside the lines as is implied by class discord conversations

[edgy widget]

I don't think I'd imply they haven't also made changes to cater to others as well

[celest sierra]

Mythic shouldn’t be something that gets cleared week 1 & 2 etc . They can still make raid gear hold it’s own in mythic to an extent

[south kayak]

WoW players: I did all this content in one day and now there’s nothing to do
Also WoW players: why is this content time gated?

[formal ravine]

Okay ignore mythic, how do we start even if the gear is seperate, you want us to go in blue gear, progress normal for ages, progress heroic for ages ? How much can you fit in a 6 month patch ?

Given how raid is limited per week content you cannot have a seperation that will make intro in mythic after 3 months.

[celest sierra]

Tuning , they can tune end game quest gear to be on par to get u into normal and don’t forget you get an item from vault every week . It would fall down to tuning . But look at PvP gear . It’s only good on PvP

[graceful ruin]

yep when blizzard force people to do content slowly: "they're greedy and trying to keep you constantly playing and paying the sub!!"

when they don't: "why isn't there any content?? I've played 100 hours in the last 4 days and I've run out of content blizzard trash company don't release anything new"

[formal ravine]

Yes you get 1 item per week, but you are again not accounting for duplicates, or needing another class, a person falls sick you cannot have extras.

You want to make the raid so exclusive that it sounds like a chore at that point not a game.

[wheat kayak]

i love slot machines kekw

whats wrong with slowly becoming addicted to gambling

[celest sierra]

And bring back bonus roll tokens in raid

[edgy widget]

they're not going to separate M+ and Raid gear; splitting playerbases would hurt both activities, and that crossover between activities is better for the game, even if single tracks would be easier to balance

[wheat kayak]

its what keeps people playing

[formal ravine]

And you also want to kill the race to world first, or any form of competition, but people love competition to some extend.

[wheat kayak]

totally fine

[edgy widget]

least hot take ever: balance is an ideal, but it's not actually the main design goal

[celest sierra]

I mean RWF in my OPINION is a joke and boring (keyword opinion)

[formal ravine]

It's boring to you, i find baseball boring.

[languid marsh]

yeah bro ever since i starting playing wow i developed a crippling gambling addiction and lost my fucking house

[wheat kayak]

great vault is literally a slot machine

time is money friend

[celest sierra]

I just say it’s boring cause of the time zone differences and issues that arise between liqued and Echo

[edgy widget]

it would be a lot more boring if it all happened on tournament realms with preset gear and template characters lol
those differences are what make it interesting, how much time a group spent preparing, what they spent preparing, etc - fair is an afterthought

[graceful ruin]

mfs when they discover Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games

[celest sierra]

Trueeeeee

[graceful ruin]

next youll tell me that fps games involve guns and violence

[wheat kayak]

why would it be more boring?

[formal ravine]

I love seeing race to world first, i love seeing what person A is capable of doing with limited resources, i love seeing how much they can push each fight with what they got and not from a comfortable place.

[wheat kayak]

people dont like watching splits

[south kayak]

Not all of them do

[wheat kayak]

its like, death to viewership numbers

[formal ravine]

True, but you can always tune in when race starts.

[edgy widget]

it's really not, but people can also tune in and out at their leisure

[graceful ruin]

my fault some of em have bows

[wheat kayak]

and they end up getting that profile of gear anyway

[celest sierra]

Those guys in no means have limit resources

[south kayak]

[median falcon]

Wow isn't the most watchable game but most of those games people watching on twitch are straight trash anyway. You gotta jump into wow and immerse yourself

[formal ravine]

They do though? Look at the item level they clear each raid. Look at the boss tuning and the changes that happen once race is over.

Their resources are much mroe limited than ours

[wheat kayak]

and it would remove the need to spend billions of gold on helpers, potentially (it wouldnt becuase the talent is so concentrated) opening up the competition

[formal ravine]

If they waited to cap item level to clear the raid it would no longer be a race

[graceful ruin]

splits are boring to watch but the differences between teams because of the decisions they make is more interesting to me than just kill boss with all same ilvl gear

[formal ravine]

So they do it and push the game-spec-class and it's fun to watch that

[edgy widget]

its kinda like saying professional sports teams should all have the same budget, the same spread of player skill, etc

• it might be more fair, but fairness isn't the goal
• those differences are what makes things interesting, and force innovation

[celest sierra]

They also go into these races with top tier analyst, secret weak auras for bosses , splits where they fully geared H wise at least , millions of gold to supplement their external buffs etc

[formal ravine]

yes the same way that redbull goes into f1 races with a top engine

How are those arguments that in any way diminish the race?

It's still the driver that drives teh car.

[wheat kayak]

i mean league actively make changes in professional sport all the time to bring those factors as close as they reasonably can

[celest sierra]

Yeh , they got more resources then us

[formal ravine]

It's still the player that pilots the toon

[wheat kayak]

the nba just had one of its best season by moving in that direction the qaulity of basketball this season was dope

[edgy widget]

and yet they still cannot and do not control the players

[formal ravine]

Okay sure, let me rephrase to make it better for you, they got less time than us.

[celest sierra]

Yeh don’t get me wrong I’m not saying they not monster games that they are

[wheat kayak]

leagues*

[edgy widget]

nobody said they shouldn't make changes, and obviously WoW does

we were talking very specifically about the differences between competitors

[formal ravine]

But the point is, we cannot simply strip that away and be like : from now on you get a drop of gear here and there, you get to no longer race and compete and you're playing on a slowed down level

Every form of sport/entertainment ends up competing in a way or another, and that's what makes it fun

[edgy widget]

but MBL has never told the Yankees to give half their budget to the Orioles either

[celest sierra]

I think they biggest and most equal challenge the teams face is the time zone differences . While echo sleeps liquid goes in and vise versa

[formal ravine]

Imagine you told football clubs that you are no longer allowed to spend millions buying players, who would watch football? (european football)

[graceful ruin]

they have more resources than we have at the time of completing the race. I'd wager most people have better gear than the RWF people did by the time they complete mythic raid

[wheat kayak]

MLB is the most actively dying major sport by a huge margin

because of a lot of that

[edgy widget]

MLB was an example, you can apply it to literally any sport

[wheat kayak]

they do redistribute and salary cap a ton in the other big leagues

[formal ravine]

you can take any form of entertainment, from the most bullshit one, and guess what drives it, competition

[edgy widget]

individual salary is not the same as overall franchise budget by a long shot

[formal ravine]

There's freaking SINGING competitions dude

[celest sierra]

Tbh I don’t think their gear really plays that major of a role in their race as much of just their pure skills as players . Like Queen . Liquid killed her entering intermission at 62%. Yeh gear makes it easier but they killed her with pure skill and THD’s god tier gate save

[edgy widget]

I can't tell if you're obtuse, argumentative, or both, but you really seem to like arguing in bad faith

[thick fossil]

https://tenor.com/view/fox-gif-22596109

[celest sierra]

Who me Archi ?

[formal ravine]

Yes but they would have not done it if they were 605 ilvl either.

[wheat kayak]

what league outside the MLB doesnt have a franchise salary cap thats meaningful?

[formal ravine]

So the engine (in this case the gear) still plays a part.

[thick fossil]

This gif is how I see warrior in s3. Lots of effort, going no where.

[graceful ruin]

but that's resources...

[wheat kayak]

its not bad faith im actively responding to what you're saying you're just talking out your ass becuase you probably dont actively watch and follow sports

[south kayak]

The gif stops before it goes over

[formal ravine]

My guy you do not need to be an expert in sports to understand that competition drives it.

[celest sierra]

Yes gear is a resource ever play has access too. They just have more access to it because they have the gold (another resource ) to pay 100+ players to pass on gear

[formal ravine]

Remove competition from ANY sport, and it dies out.

[edgy widget]

buddy I said the top team has never been forced to split their budget with a weaker team in terms of fairness, and you started talking about salary caps, which is not the same thing

[signal steeple]

Why are people doing 6 million DPS now? I just started doing 4

[wheat kayak]

thats literally what salary caps and redistributing sales are

[edgy widget]

no it's not

salary is a part of budget

[wheat kayak]

in the NFL and NBA money that the lakers make, money that the steelers make, is redistributed to smaller market teams

[thick fossil]

That's the point, we never get to the top of the slide.

[wheat kayak]

as part of collective ownership agreements etc

[south kayak]

I think it’s time to tune out, no clue what this salary cap business is

[edgy widget]

he just keeps changing the subject to try to save his points

[formal ravine]

You're getting technical and completely disregarding the essence on purpose..

[wheat kayak]

their budget isnt different than the other teams?

[graceful ruin]

yeah they do something in baseball so they gotta do it in World of Warcraft Race to World First I cba man

[celest sierra]

Who is

[edgy widget]

the whole thing started with a very simple point that making everything completely even and fair between RWF teams would make it more boring, and how the differences between teams are what make it more interesting

[wheat kayak]

and if they go over the cap, they pay a fee to the other teams for doing it, so they can as well

[south kayak]

Slam, clearly

[celest sierra]

Had to ask cause this convo split into seperate convos between diff people lol

[lilac osprey]

uh yeah actually every teams budgets are very different only salarys have a cap not other parts of the budget and a lot of the teams revanue isnt part of the league agreements

[thick fossil]

They're comparing RWF to major sports leagues. One saying it should be more regulated, the other saying it shouldn't

[edgy widget]

well not quite what was being discussed

[celest sierra]

Also the RWF teams have one resource no other player has and that’s inside information on the fights from the devs . And if you don’t believe that your delusional js

[wheat kayak]

im not saying it should be regulated that was a devolve from talking about it just being on tournament realm or not

[edgy widget]

but it was a simple analogy that he's running away with, talking about salary caps (which still isn't the same thing as an overall budget)

[formal ravine]

Yes and you claimed you hate the splits

[thick fossil]

They also have a boat load of cash both in game and out.

[formal ravine]

And he said if the splits DID NOT EXIST, and you put them all on a tournament realm like for example the great push, it would not be as fun.

Part of the race is the splits, it's the rng that comes on it.

[thick fossil]

They're pretty much fully heroic with some mythic gear by the time it's over.

[celest sierra]

I mean splits are players choice . Players choose to pass on gear for gold . That’s just the teams taking advantage of that . If players refused the gold etc then splits would die

[formal ravine]

Still, it's rng

[wheat kayak]

its not rng if you make 7 warlocks to get the RNG out of it tho

[formal ravine]

IT is still rng

[lilac osprey]

also how they manage time doing splits with actually progging the bosses when heroic and mythic release the same week

[wheat kayak]

its just an empty grind

[edgy widget]

not just the splits (even though I agree that I hate splits), but all the differences - how many players they have, how many characters they prepped, how much effort went into getting ready for the tier makes a huge difference

making everything even might make it more skillful, but it doesn't necessarily make it more interesting
Races of the past have had huge upsets based on which players had which characters ready

[formal ravine]

You could have 20 warlocks, and still get 0

[south kayak]

Do you think it would be more fun if there was something like world first m+?

[languid marsh]

thats what they have to do to stay competitive? i legit dont see the issue here

[wheat kayak]

i guess lol

[thick fossil]

Well, that's why they funnel a lot of gear. Someone is getting something every split.

[formal ravine]

@south kayak Personally i think what would make it actual fun is if blizzard embraced the race and it was not a player organized thing. Have blizzard create a mount per race, the same mount, with different teams banner. People would buy it to support their team, and part of the profits go to the top 3 teams. That would allow for it to become a more supported thing and then the terms can be discussed.

[edgy widget]

I mean I do fundamentally think splits are bad for the game, and wish they weren't a thing, but it is what it is

[celest sierra]

Exactly , the point . You won’t need to be in full mythic gear to clear mythic prior to the RWF post nerfs . You just need some gear . And mostly Hero . So make raid gear only good in raid and dungeon gear for dungeons

[thick fossil]

To be honest the whole splits and shit has gotten out of hand.

[edgy widget]

absolutely, and the trickle down aspect has been horrendous

[celest sierra]

I wanna see the race without splits

[thick fossil]

As soon as one team does it they all have to do it.

[formal ravine]

So we're going on a loop on what was said earlier that it can be done on a tournament realm.

[turbid bay]

Its a huge turn off for people looking to get into the top end

And its bad for viewers

[formal ravine]

You eliminate splits, you give them bis gear and fuck it

[wheat kayak]

wait we're based now

[south kayak]

Didn’t they try to reduce the amount of splits? Whatever happened with that?

[edgy widget]

there are definitely downsides to the way WoW does things, but even if they put the RWF on a tournament realm, real guilds would still feel pressure to do splits

[wheat kayak]

what a swerve

[celest sierra]

No eliminate splits and have them farm gear like the remaining 98% of the game

[edgy widget]

sadly you can't really eliminate splits

at least not without extremely oppressive restrictions (like once per account raid lockouts, and even that wouldn't really stop it... you'd just have multiple accounts instead of multiple characters)

[lilac osprey]

its impossible to elminate the splits without completely fucking the way loot works

[wheat kayak]

that would lowkey kill the race cuz the content is so hard now that if they had to do it natty the race would be a month every time

[thick fossil]

As soon as one team does more splits that forces the others to do the same. It's a catch 22 at that point, each trying to get an advantage by doing something they hate.

[wheat kayak]

the only way the rwf happens like it does is if they can somehow be full hc ilvl on week 2

[edgy widget]

it's not even about the RWF

[formal ravine]

If blizzard fully embraced the race and funded it partially, they could add some rules to it too. Even if the rules were time related (I.E part of the deal is that you go into the race by day 3 just as an example) But at the moment since it's fully hosted by players there's nothing they can force.

[edgy widget]

it doesn't matter if the RWF does splits or not, even if they had a tourney realm, real guilds would still feel pressure to do splits

[wheat kayak]

yeah ppl competing for guild rank would still do it for sure

[edgy widget]

they could, but blizz doesn't really wanna get into arbitrating that (and I don't fully blame them ether lol)

[lilac osprey]

also im pretty sure the racers dont want it either

[marble pilot]

We doing pretty good now with these changes? Or still too early to tell?

[thick fossil]

Oh, you're ranking about HoF guilds.

[wheat kayak]

also game developers controlling esports ecosystems hasn't ever been good for long term growth of said ecosystem

and esp with blizzard

[languid marsh]

yep i was gonna join a world #1800 guild until they were like "oh yeah you are expected to run splits with us next season"

[wheat kayak]

hands off plz

[lilac osprey]

even non HoF guilds end up doing splits nowadays

[thick fossil]

Yeah, look at Overwatch league.

[formal ravine]

Depends on the game, wow is very hard to keep in check. Mobas have successfully done it for a long time now.

[wheat kayak]

league of legends would be like cs if they hadn't created the closed regional league system

[formal ravine]

but in mobas you get 5v5 competition not 20v20 and not even a direct 20v20, an actual race.

CS:GO, league, dota all of them are on the same idea and it works wonders

[wheat kayak]

league is significantly different than dota and cs and it has been slowly dying becuase of it

[edgy widget]

I refuse to join a guild that does splits lol

and there are actually are several, even at the higher ranks

[wheat kayak]

its just coasting on its massive playerbase keeping its numbers relatively decent but year over year its absolutely atrocious

[edgy widget]

not just HoF, but it all trickles down

[wheat kayak]

they should be ashamed of what they sqaundered

[lilac osprey]

i have friends in non HoF guilds that run splits

[junior gale]

I think splits are fine if its only one helps get everyone tier quicker

worth wile trade off to keep up only 2 characters

[edgy widget]

blizz largely handled that on their own

[thick fossil]

That just sounds like ass. Why have 10 of the same class? Ppl have way too much free time.

[formal ravine]

Because of what you said

people have too much free time

Some others don't

[celest sierra]

Well these RWF players will be tested soon enough once Blizz does away with addons etc

[formal ravine]

If i was a 22 year old living with my parents studying and all my needs were met yeah i'd have the patience and willingness to do 20 alts

When i gotta pretend i am an adult i got other priorities

[south kayak]

Not if everything is easier

[formal ravine]

Well it depends, think back some bosses where the addons existed but the fights were still not as easy

Look at tindral and fyrakk

[thick fossil]

Yeah, that is a good point. No, even if things are "easier" I guarantee you, we'll see a lot more fuck ups.

[formal ravine]

Good fights overall even with addons still good difficulty

[graceful ruin]

I'm just sad about the loss of plater functionality honestly

[celest sierra]

We shall see . At least bosses like Brood from Nerub hopefully won’t exist that boss was undoable with out help

[turbid bay]

Delete boss addons and weak auras to assist on fights

[vapid tiger]

Do adds count on M Mugzhee? Can I focus them to get Vicious Contempt dmg and some executes?

[celest sierra]

#makebossesgreatagain

[turbid bay]

Only the rocketeers count

[thick fossil]

Sprocket, mug'zee, lots of bosses still have tons of add on help.

[graceful ruin]

I think loss of addons will be pretty terrible for the game early on

[celest sierra]

Until players adjust

[south kayak]

Eventually it’ll go back to normal

[thick fossil]

Long term it will be better.

[graceful ruin]

can't predict much but I fully don't expect blizzard to provide a sufficient alternative for half the shit they remove

[turbid bay]

It will be a learning curve for the community but honestly just tone down the difficulty

[graceful ruin]

I will make no such predictions, but I sure hope you're right

[turbid bay]

And tune it up with time

[thick fossil]

One button is more of an issue than no add-ons

[celest sierra]

Yeh because blizzard doesn’t intend on nullifying mechanics like addons and weakauras do for us

Blizzard wants us to experience everything they create

[graceful ruin]

I mean i rarely do raid so I don't care much about that stuff. I'm mostly upset I can't use plater to see what effects are on a mob tbh

and class weakauras if those are gone too

[celest sierra]

Anyways back to Fury warrior discussions . This chat went way off topic lmao

#removeSMf

[thick fossil]

This is fury channel, it usually does.

[graceful ruin]

why do you say that?

[turbid bay]

One button is a very radical change

Some people are just better off using it then playing their class

[thick fossil]

It's gonna promote laziness for some specs that can actually get away with it.

[celest sierra]

It’s not even good to use cause it doesn’t priorize major cds

Instead of the one button stick to Hekill to learn a spec etc or rotation

[graceful ruin]

I'm pretty sure their overwhelming intention is that it isn't good to use

people who use this aren't trying to learn a rotation

they want to press one button

[thick fossil]

Hence the problem. Lol

[celest sierra]

That’s dumb tho , why create something that doesn’t actually help 😂😂 bro I’m not tryna sound like a negative Nancy here but jeez

[graceful ruin]

well I'm not sure it's a problem

[graceful ruin]

it's not for the people trying to learn a class?? it's an accessibility change and for people who aren't interested in learning a class/spec but in other parts of the game

[celest sierra]

U can make a cast sequence macro and place all ur abilities on that macro if u wanna use one button

[graceful ruin]

another example of a feature not really made for me, but I'm not gonna act like I don't see why it exists

[celest sierra]

If your not tryna actually learn

[graceful ruin]

yeah i don't think someone who isn't interested in learning a class is interested in making a cast sequence macro lol

[celest sierra]

Ah so Blizz made it for their lazy ass lmao

I get it now

[graceful ruin]

this sounds like a matter of tuning

[languid marsh]

when is blizzard gonna make a "give all old mounts and transmog" button for me

[celest sierra]

Like warlocks lmao

[graceful ruin]

uh, no they made it for the people interested in a different part of the game lol

[languid marsh]

when is blizzard gonna make a "instant fast travel" button for me

[celest sierra]

What part of the game tho that requires them making a whole button for it that a macro can’t fix ?

[celest sierra]

It’s called Hearthstone

[lilac osprey]

they did its called mages

[graceful ruin]

a macro being able to fix it doesn't matter

I see it as mostly an accessibility feature

which is fine

[celest sierra]

I suppose

[graceful ruin]

as long as it isn't the most effective option - that'd be terrible

but it seems clear that isn't the intention

[thick fossil]

Madox just dropped a new video

[celest sierra]

What’s the video on ?

[earnest canyon]

Chest waxing

[winter shoal]

AYO

Madox entering a new realm of content creation?

[languid marsh]

god people werent kidding about this arathi highlands questline

this shit is god awful

[indigo arch]

It really is

[meager hound]

I didn't mind it.

I thought it was fun.

[orchid dagger]

it's absolutely shit writing

[meager hound]

A bit longer than I expected, but not bad.

[indigo arch]

I was groaning already since the Mary Sue is involved

I'm surprised they didn't bring anduin in again for him to have a cry and her console him

[orchid dagger]

yup

Should just kill her off and be done with it

But no, we will probably have to deal with Mary Sue for way too long

[vocal fog]

Why they buffing WW again

[flat river]

Who is mary sue

[orchid dagger]

Faerin, the cripple

[flat river]

Still no idea

[vagrant garden]

ahh shit the new changes to fury.... i dont like they just give aura buffs instead of fixing the mechanics, but i guess that's the best we can get with the new season on the edge, hopefully we can at least get into the mid pack of mainstream specs in M+

[young swan]

we didnt get an aura buff

[indigo arch]

They won't change meat cleaver, no shot

[vagrant garden]

yea i mean, aura-like buff, +% to abilities

[indigo arch]

They still are on that class fantasy that doesn't work with modern dungeon pulls

[young swan]

are u expecting massive changes to cleaver with like 3 weeks left

[sage ridge]

I am assuming Fury is still pretty bad after the buffs to meat cleaver

[young swan]

no its really solid

[silk wharf]

Genuine question. Do the devs responsible for warrior balancing think we are supposed to be hitting WW more in aoe than we already are?

[young swan]

its like a 15% buff to sustained cleave lmfao

[languid marsh]

Why did ret pally get buffs for a ton of abilities aren't they already pumping in m+

[young swan]

they are like bottom 3 specs in the game on ptr rn

[vagrant garden]

i wouldnt dare to. just somehing in my mind

[young swan]

the question was more for moo

[vagrant garden]

general thoughts just

[young swan]

i feel like we got everything we were gonna get from this patch after no rework in the first 2 weeks of ptr

[red berry]

same

again id have liked capstone buffs but

[languid marsh]

Good right where they belong then

[sage ridge]

Just have a weird feeling Fury is going to get gapped horribly in M+ and we will end up playing Arms again anyways

[red berry]

what we got is alright, too

[vagrant garden]

i agree actually. but i dont know how other classes are doing in comparasion. I solely play war for 15 yrs

[young swan]

wont be happening unless if we eat a horrific nerf

[flat river]

Oh

[young swan]

we have tblasts critting for 8mil at like heroic ilvl

[graceful ruin]

so not until week 2

yuge

[red berry]

yeah no tblast is huge

[graceful ruin]

oh damn tblasts really that big? that's cool

which change is that because of?

[oblique thistle]

and you're going to be pressing that a lot too