fury

[dense elbow]

No, you dont. You just want to fish responses.

[uneven furnace]

Maybe it's a hidden message to say "leave the guild" once I will tell them I will play war next season

[gilded pawn]

I “feel” like you should click on this video so I can get ad revenue

[dense elbow]

I "think" it is right to click that like button

[olive wraith]

Like and subscribe

Hit that notification bell

[winter shoal]

Has anyone ever clicked the notification bell

[dense elbow]

Please respond to my obvious ragebait and misinformation in the comments

[south kayak]

Nope actually lol

[clever belfry]

but if u use your own comps u gotta use THINKING to adjust strats slightly and cant copy paste!!!

[south kayak]

I don’t want to get notifications

[clever belfry]

better waste 20 pulls by some guy being dogshit on a new class m8 trust m8

(we couldve saved ~5-10 pulls if i wasnt dogshit on mugzee frfr)

[olive wraith]

Me if I ever played warlock. Never want to touch gate tech

[modest condor]

you know the left one is out of date right

[iron portal]

He knows now

[winter shoal]

Yes that's part of my point

[modest condor]

i just assumed you ment it as a "sim stacks arent a representation of actual performance"

[winter shoal]

Well I do

But I also mean it as "just looking at simc doesn't necessarily represent 'real' sims"

[modest condor]

doesnt really hold when half the specs havent updated their sims since 11.1.0 and others have

i mean your point is still true

just the pictures dont necessarily support it

[winter shoal]

Yeah I guess I'm trying to make both points at once but the screenshots can by definition only support one of them at a time

[oblique trail]

20 pulls? who would ever waste 20 pulls

that's -3200 primos

[modest condor]

like the warrior ones dont even have the turbo boost ilvl increase, and i assume pretty much every other spec below 3mil is the same

[clever belfry]

okay

[flat river]

and still no mention of fury or arms

[lean bluff]

not true. demolish is 'fixed'. it still wont prevent half the knockbacks but they changed it for prot and arms.

[flat river]

yes but demolish is for prot/arms

[clever belfry]

are u blind?

[flat river]

and they only changed prot so far

[flat river]

REAL

[lean bluff]

fury is top 17 dps specs for all dps rankings in current raid. pretty strong. doubtful to get tuning

[coarse nest]

Hollyy it’s right there!!

[barren solar]

Hows fury looking in TWW? I havent been able to find any video showcasing it

[alpine steppe]

really good, top spec.

Play it now!

[flat river]

definitely one of the specs of all time

[lean heart]

real

[lean bluff]

this is from last expac, but it's still relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513uC-4ftT0&t=106s

[chilly fractal]

He was upset, damnit!

[dense elbow]

It is a spec that guarantees you an experience every time

[barren solar]

I'll just pretend I didnt ask lol

[lean heart]

when he rerolled mage that was giga bleak lmao

[south kayak]

Crits videos are timeless

[orchid dagger]

Step 1: reroll
Step 2: seriously, reroll
Step 3: remove all firearms from the house

[dense elbow]

Who doesnt enjoy going on their alt, and doing 20% more DPS?

[obsidian sonnet]

Does simming yourself using a mdt route work best for all specs?

[clever iron]

that really sucks if they are not going to do enythin for arms or fury

[orchid dagger]

First rule of brown class is fuck brown class

[lean bluff]

not in the same category. arms is pretty solid tbh

[orchid dagger]

Arms is dogshit too

[lean bluff]

comparatively..

[orchid dagger]

It's just less obvious

[dense elbow]

"Not if you compare it with Fury!"

[tepid cedar]

However, fury you play perfect to hit 15-16 mil on packs arms you hit buttons and hit 25-30

[dense elbow]

15-16m if reap decide to proc

[tepid cedar]

Especially in m+ season we’re pack kill speed is literally all that matters( route as well of course, but you get my drift)

[orchid dagger]

The only thing woyer is decent at is solo queue pvp where you only compete with your spec

So you can be bottom bitch with the other browns

[dense elbow]

Playing warrior aint that bad tho, you just need an alt to play when the depression of doing 0 dam hits too hard

Bounce back, do some actual dam, then go back to warrior

[tepid cedar]

Basically play ret lol

Same st dps and actually had aoe 🤣🤣

[polar trail]

It’s bizarre how hard my fresh 662 ret pumps compared to my pretty much bis 684 war

[dense elbow]

Because Fury Warrior is shit tier balanced

[tepid cedar]

I basically quit everything. I’m just abusing new event drops haha. Went from 1-49 to 25-49 in completionist tracker hahahaha

[sullen dove]

14m if it doesn’t

[dense elbow]

Closer to 9-10

Reap matters a lot in your burst window

you dont get the god procs, you fall flat

[tepid cedar]

^^^

[sullen dove]

Good thing the “burst window” also doesn’t matter for fury

[tepid cedar]

Literally the diff of a 5 mill pull vs 3.5

[sullen dove]

fury is only sustained

[tepid cedar]

Exaggerated a lil but yea reap play a big part. Also being a casino class sucks. Why can’t we just have tier sets that if x happen this happens

Bring skill vs rng

[slim coral]

sustained with no dps cooldowns pog

[sullen dove]

pog

[dense elbow]

While I get your 'if you dont care about event to event' stance and PoV, I really disagree with it being 'fine'. If it was an event that turned us being "ok" or "great" dam to "omg, look at me go!" it wouldnt feel as bad

but when reap is "I am shit tier"

[sullen dove]

next tier pretty consistent tier that’s good

[dense elbow]

to "ok, I am shit tier"

it doesnt work

it aint fun gameplay

[tepid cedar]

2p is

Haha

[sullen dove]

I thought fury was fine tho

everything is fine it’s all fine

Yap yap

[dense elbow]

It is all fine

everything is fine

we are fine

[tepid cedar]

2p s3 and 2p s2 might be the go to

[dense elbow]

its fine

[sullen dove]

yea I mean 4pc reap whatever

[tepid cedar]

They haven’t nerfed our tier sets yet have they

[dense elbow]

Dont need to

[sullen dove]

nerfed thane tier before it went live

[tepid cedar]

I mean s2 nerf

[sullen dove]

something something “testing is for testing how cares how powerful the tier sets are” when the tier is literally the worst thing they’ve ever released

testing my ass

[tepid cedar]

Not gona lie I’m very excited about our slayer 2p

[sullen dove]

releasing thane tier like that 3 weeks ago and still not changing it is pepelaugh

[dense elbow]

2p on ST feels great, 2p on AoE feels a bit clunk.

[sullen dove]

Yea slayer gonna be good

[dense elbow]

All they need to do tho, is take the (4) bonus, remove "raging blow", add "execute"

fixed

[sullen dove]

I mean nothing rly changes rotationally

you are hitting both buttons the exact same amount of times regardless

[dense elbow]

You played it on AoE?

[sullen dove]

sd literally on cd and rb any other time

[flat river]

or
Step 1: don't reroll
Step 2: buy a punching bag in your room
Step 3: buy more firearms

[sullen dove]

if aoe that change u idk ignore rb a little bit but you kinda already do that

Bt higher reap chance

[orchid dagger]

Step 4: Kurt Cobain

[coarse nest]

It’s almost time for more dooming

Are you prepared

!!!?

[sullen dove]

Can’t wait another week no changes

[tepid cedar]

Well the potential for the higher 5T hit is there with 2P

[sullen dove]

make RA great again

[tepid cedar]

Might actually make us better in 5T

[dense elbow]

For sure

but, lets be real

how often does 5t matter?

[coarse nest]

Yes please!! +1

[tepid cedar]

At this point, if it helps us in 5 I’ll take it

[dense elbow]

Sure, we can go from 5-6m on those 5t, ppl still blast them for 10-15m

[marble pilot]

Yeah but we do like 2.5m on bosses and they only do 2.3m so we are useful. RIght guys

[dense elbow]

Nah, we do what 3-3.5m on live atm

[coarse nest]

Surely

[dense elbow]

Ppl do 2.8m

but we do 3m+

so we just better

[tepid cedar]

lol unless we pop off with lust

We aren’t doing like 2.5 lol

Are*

On true st

[marble pilot]

Yeah fair. But still they are not far enough behind on ST to make up for the aoe gains

[coarse nest]

3% more boss damage and 30% less aoe

[dense elbow]

We are not far ahead enough on ST to make up for our AoE loss at all

[coarse nest]

Fair trade

[marble pilot]

Yeah better way to word it

[tepid cedar]

I been saying this since week 2 lol

[dense elbow]

When I did 2.5m and my mate did 1.5m, I was like "ok, ok, I see"

Now I do 3m and he does 2.8m

Yeah

yeaaaah

I feel like shit

[marble pilot]

You know what you are getting with the warrior though. Roughly same dps on a low aoe dungeon like ToP compared to meadery.

Still trash tier but hey its consistent I guess.

[orchid dagger]

Consistent dogshit isn't worth it

[coarse nest]

You can add sauce to dog shit but you’d still be eating dog shit

[dense elbow]

The only good thing we got:

Maybe that is why we are tuned 20% behind, because we got some fights with SR potential

Makes sense

[marble pilot]

Ive heard that healers like us. We take a less damage than most other dps do

[dense elbow]

Sure, ofc they do. We are extremely durable vs most things, and we will be at 60% hp when ppl are at 10%

[marble pilot]

Though mobs dieing faster is better for healers as well

I do love when there is a big hit and the whole party is at like 10% and we are just chillin

[dense elbow]

What do the healer prefer:
Not heaing Fury Warrior as much as others specs
Vs
The mob that makes your heart race and panic dies

Think healers prefer that extra 20m DPS

[marble pilot]

Yeah. Probably another thing where fury is better in raid

Its nice for raid healers to know they dont have to worry about the fury warrior as much as other dps

[modest condor]

i can tell you that ortemist was very happy when i told them that noxiv should use second wind in dfc

[alpine steppe]

Are logs key% a good metric when checking damage done?

[modest condor]

no

[alpine steppe]

How does it work then?

[dense elbow]

You want to compare yourself to others, for like a generic feel?

[modest condor]

oh it works the same as raid, it's just not a good metric because very few people log keys in the first place and there are way too many variables to make a meaningful conclusion off of them

[winter shoal]

Yeah that was part of the point I was trying to make - if you just say "my tier list is the simc 5m 1t rankings" then it's inherently flawed because of the differences in how the profiles are updated/generated, but also even if they were "perfect" there's still only a limited amount of applicability to the real world

[modest condor]

a target capped melee comp is gonna do way less dps than an uncapped meta comp, but you can time a key in the same amount of time

[dense elbow]

If so, look at the key% bracket, that is guys doing the same key level as you. But as Silm said, there is so many moveing parts.

What you should do, is look at yourself and your logs, see if you improve key to key.

[alpine steppe]

Yeah but tbh in my key level pugs really run almost identical routes lol

16-18

Regardless of comp.

Trying to work in pressing a lot more bloodthirst, studied a bit and that was a big difference for me missing the vicious contempt window in AoE.

[earnest canyon]

Everyone should watch this (only 2hrs) to prepare for S3 M+
https://www.wowhead.com/news/warcraft-audio-novella-the-doom-of-karesh-377672

[echo rapids]

Maybe we need the frost dk treatment, fully uncouple our ST from our aoe

They couldn’t fix/balance obliterate spam cleave so they just got rid of it

[dense elbow]

I mean, all they need to do is to decide:
Do we want rotationals to decide it - if so, buff WW and TC/Blast
or CDs? Buff OF/BS/Roar/Ravager

We got knobs, they just dont use them to fix M+

[frank dawn]

yeah I mean, we def don't need the frost dk treatment imo

we are just paying for the sins of Nerubar Palace and some poor intern working on warriors is terrified to buff our cooldowns

[echo rapids]

It’s definitely harder to balance a spec that uses single target abilities to cleave in aoe than just giving them a ST set of abilities and an aoe set

[edgy widget]

not particularly

[frank dawn]

meanwhile if Nerubar Palace released today like half the dps specs in the game would burst just as hard, or harder, than we did xd

[edgy widget]

there are plenty of tuning knobs

[marble pilot]

Yeah all they gotta do is adjust the amount of cleave from improved meat cleaver

[echo rapids]

Not impossible but takes more care

[marble pilot]

If it ever gets too low or high

Or other things like tblast/reap

Or the aoe cooldowns

[edgy widget]

I'm not even sure it takes more care than adjusting twice as many spells individually lol

[marble pilot]

Tons of options

[fleet pasture]

we have enough homogenization - dont need to change the profile IMO

[frank dawn]

blizzard's refusal to take action doesn't mean the knobs don't exist. Would be nice to know why they aren't using them though /shrug

[echo rapids]

Then why isn’t it happening

[dense elbow]

Because we are technically functional and fine in 12s

We got representation in 20s

So, its all fine

[marble pilot]

Also fine in raids. Overall we are fine. Just not exciting. And it feels bad.
Cant wait for VDH Boom Arcane Resto sham+ 1 for the meta again

[echo rapids]

If we go through the entire 11.2 Ptr without changes then we have a deeper issue

[dense elbow]

I cant wait for being boosted by my friends all season long again

[echo rapids]

It won’t be resto sham, something like enhance or MM will come in for unholy

[edgy widget]

because their priorities and goals are not necessarily the same as yours

[marble pilot]

So lust class then whatever healer? Monk for mystic touch? I honestly havnt looked at healers much for season 3

Though arcane has the lust i guess

[echo rapids]

There is no reason for it to not be vdh disc arcane boom still

[frank dawn]

the updated MM seems pretty banger tbh

[dense elbow]

We have no clue how the S3 meta will pan out, at current "tuning", Hunters will be 3x if not 4x meta DPS

[marble pilot]

So those 4 plus whatever dps is doing the most

[echo rapids]

The brez is an issue

But not huge

[marble pilot]

Boomkin bug still exist or was that fixed?

[echo rapids]

Resto Druid hps is nutty right now, if they go in then maybe shadow for boom

[dense elbow]

Resto druid is nutty - right now - would be key here

For all we know, Fury gets a 100% aura buff, and suddenly we are top dog uber S tier

Likely? Not really, but - it could

[frank dawn]

yeh, I mean today's build is prob the first real glimpse at them starting tuning if I had to guess. and then obviously fury will get nerfed on patch release

so, you know

[edgy widget]

If mean still as in since the start of the season, it's because Blizz doesn't typically like to shake up mid-season balance

which sounds kind of silly, because why wouldn't they want to rebalance the clear frontrunners and those lagging behind, but there's a lot of data to support that the vast majority of players don't like too frequent rebalancing - when they've spent time investing in the new best thing or pushing up with their comp, the belief is that pulling the rug out from under them ends up pissing people off more than it makes them happy

[marble pilot]

Imagine. We dont know what to do with warriors so we just gave them a flat aura buff

[dense elbow]

3% aura buff, every week, for 5 weeks

still 10% behind

[edgy widget]

so instead, Blizz has adopted a philosophy of smaller changes that improve the differences, but don't change the overall balance - they might nerf a top performer or buff a low one, but they are (for the most part) still going to be on the top and bottom respectively - just with a smaller gap between them

[echo rapids]

That would be a pretty stable meta for two seasons in a row

Didn’t DF have pretty big season to season shifts?

But yeah maybe they don’t want that

[echo agate]

Musclebrah s3 tier list hehehe

[edgy widget]

as stated in my opening sentence, I'm not talking about season to season, I'm talking about mid-season tuning

[oblique thistle]

But that's not what was being originally discussed?

[winter shoal]

w h omegalul

[echo rapids]

Yes I see that but we are talking season 3

[edgy widget]

its what I was discussing, prior to that we were talking about tuning cleave lmao

[frank dawn]

warrior's spot in M+ specifically and looking at meta is fairly unique also imo because of how little we offer besides damage. There is simply zero reason to ever take us if we aren't one of the absolute best damage dealers because we offer nothing else (basically)

almost every other class has a more complicated equation of support and dps to offer

[edgy widget]

we don't know what the meta for S3 will be yet, the patch hasn't even released yet

which isn't to say there isn't a good chance it won't be VDH/Arcane/Boom, but it certainly isn't guaranteed

[echo rapids]

I thought we were talking ptr tuning so far, where vdh disc arcane boom still all look very good

[edgy widget]

and even if it is, there's still at least a small shift in the meta, since UH looks like it will drop out

[clever path]

Its getting harder to stand by fury this days

[winter shoal]

spriest coming back I fear

[echo rapids]

It’s a bit like how if pally tank is survivable enough then it’s got too much utility to not be meta

[dense elbow]

we top tier

[echo rapids]

Two meta comps, both Druid priest lol

[frank dawn]

[winter shoal]

HOLY

[oblique thistle]

We're so back

[edgy widget]

well first of all, let's back up with this "we were talking about..." stuff because no we weren't - it might have been what you meant but that's not what was said and I specifically made a point about their approach to mid-season tuning

secondly, the meta season to season has and is shifting, even if it's not as dramatic as it perhaps should be - S1 to S2 metas were wholly different and UH looks like it's dropping out of S3

S1 meta was like... Prot Pal, H Priest, Sham/Evoker/Rogue/Boomkin?

[winter shoal]

was it hpriest or disc?

[oblique thistle]

Disc

[edgy widget]

idk

[oblique thistle]

Not holy

[edgy widget]

whatever

[oblique thistle]

Sham at first then it evolved into disc

[edgy widget]

we're assuming that S3 meta will be pretty similar to S2, but I don't think it's fair to definitively say what it is or will be yet; even then it won't be wholly the same if UH does drop out

[clever path]

There is a guy on blizz that made me execute to refresh jugg stacks, and I hate that person, bring back Execute doing big dong dps

[frank dawn]

tbf execute fucks pretty damn hard next season lol

[winter shoal]

Got good news for you bud

[edgy widget]

sounds like you're talking about #arms but Execute kinda does do big dps

and Fury Execute is pretty giga next season too

[north geyser]

how's thane vs slayer looking for M+ next season?

[dense elbow]

=_=

[oblique thistle]

Slayer giga

[winter shoal]

lol

[oblique thistle]

Thane blows

[blissful delta]

it's there

[frank dawn]

well currently thane doesn't have a tier bonus

so

[edgy widget]

basically

[winter shoal]

Thane 2p is within sim margin of error

[edgy widget]

better question is how does Colossus look vs Slayer next season

[north geyser]

yeah cause it's like 3 layers of stacking rng to get big TBlast

[echo rapids]

Have they ever said if they like wildly different metas or a more gradual season to season change?

[oblique thistle]

But let's be real here, you shouldn't be playing Fury in M+ (as it currently stands)

[edgy widget]

two and it's not even bigger, it's just a normal tblast

[oblique thistle]

Just play arms

[dense elbow]

Wait, did they change the tierset, so Tblast now is big?

[oblique thistle]

Or something else entirely

[edgy widget]

as far as I'm aware, they have not specified

[winter shoal]

I mean outside of title range who cares as long as you play well

[clever path]

But why not, I want to play fury on M+

[edgy widget]

then play Fury in M+

[orchid dagger]

you just wont get groups

[edgy widget]

despite popular narrative, nobody is stopping you

[orchid dagger]

[edgy widget]

and some players have done extremely well with it

[clever path]

But how do I play if I’m not getting invited?

[winter shoal]

Push your own key

[edgy widget]

make your own groups

make friends and play with them

[clever path]

Do I put a timer and hit dummies on dorongal

[frank dawn]

gotta find friends or do your own keys

[clever path]

I’m sorry guys the heat it’s getting to me

[orchid dagger]

pvp > solo shuffle
pvp > solo rbg

[dense elbow]

Its fine, the heat is getting us all

[frank dawn]

but who wants to be friends with a fury warrior, honestly can't blame them

[dense elbow]

Heat = grumpy, 100% fact

[edgy widget]

the same way you got invited to play tball in middle school? make friends or start your own game

it ain't rocket surgery

[orchid dagger]

heat = play a better spec

big fax

[winter shoal]

tell me about it

heat index of 106 rn

[clever path]

Tbf I really believe that capping to 8 and 5 target classes would lead to better balance overall

[winter shoal]

gym has no AC

[dense elbow]

Winter is coming

[edgy widget]

ofc it would

I don't think that's at all an unpopular opinion either... unless you're one of the uncapped classes

[clever path]

I would be happy capped to 5 if I have to compete vs 8 capped classes, but don’t give the 5 vs 20 on balance and uhk, that’s too much

[winter shoal]

I think uncapping the currently-capped classes would make more sense and would certainly be more popular

[oblique thistle]

It's simple

More number means more happy

People like to pull big

[clever path]

That will look like hell on earth on balance side, plus, they really lean to fantasy and I doesn’t make sense for a monk to be kicking 20 ppl at the same time

[oblique thistle]

Why arbitrarily limit them

They're just going to ignore you anyways if you do

[oblique thistle]

There needs to be a balance between fantasy and what makes more sense for actual gameplay

[clever path]

That’s what I mean that they won’t uncap all classes, they best thing they will do it’s 5 and 8

[oblique thistle]

Easier to balance, antithetical to how people engage with M+

[edgy widget]

that's like saying PoE shouldn't be slowed down just because there's a go-fast meta

[clever path]

In the end it’s my fault for liking not only fury that’s capped, then I go like a boss and get a WW monk which is the same

[edgy widget]

just cause people do something doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good thing lol

[clever path]

I just cannot escape it

[oblique thistle]

That's a bad example because youre assuming that the playerbase would agree that going slower in that game would be objectively better for it when that's clearly not the case

[edgy widget]

no, you're missing the point in that I don't care what the player base agrees with

I'm talking about what's good for the game

which is not necessarily the same as good for player desires

[oblique thistle]

People were feinding to get the hell out of PoE 2 and go back to PoE one and slowness was one of the many reasons why

[edgy widget]

and PoE 2 has a lot more problems than its pacing lol

actually the combat pacing is pretty fine overall, its everything else about it that sucks

[oblique thistle]

But my point is about player sentiment, that's the main point I'm trying to make here

[edgy widget]

yes but I don't care about player sentiment

[winter shoal]

Maybe for bosses but holy idk why they thought ARPG players wanted to dodge roll against trash mobs

[edgy widget]

players are stupid

they routinely make stupid decisions lol

and frankly, need to be protected from themselves

you know why Blizz adds timegating to everything now? Because without it players will binge 6 months of content in a week for a 0.1% increase - as we've seen over, and over, and over again

and those who don't want to will see those who do, and feel like they also have to or else they miss out on that trivial advantage

players are fucking stupid lol

[bitter palm]

df wrathion rep

for a vers cloak

brainrot

ngl

[clever path]

The hypocrisy on the community it’s outrageous, season 1 enh was meta, there you will see ppl, ohh poor enh, don’t nerf them plz, they have never been meta before, let them be, same ppl burned fury to the ground on forums cuz, HOW is this fury bladestorming my mobs on this heroic dungeon, and outdpsing me, I bet they will scale like crazy and be tier S, it CANNOT be, then you have pally being like tier S or close to every season, not to mention VDH, mage, but enh gets the pass, fury doesn’t

[edgy widget]

as stated, players are fucking stupid lol

[oblique thistle]

But in this context specifically player sentiment absolutely matters
I don't think anyone enjoyed the fact that we were pulling smaller in season 1, people generally like pulling bigger
Implementing a target cap on everything gets in the way of what players enjoy, on top of it just strictly being a more efficient thing to do in timed content

[edgy widget]

not to mention jealous, self serving, and generally short sighted

but getting away from all that, the bigger point being made is that people will always want to pull more bigger faster, but it also creates a ton of unnecessary problems

• blizz can't balance pack to pack
• more reliance on stops
• more confusion in overlapping targets/nameplates/spell casts/ground targeting effects
• more lag with more
  and the list goes on

given the choice between reducing target caps vs increasing them, reducing (to a reasonable amount, not talking about going back to CC every pull and DPS one at a time) is better pretty much across the board

[clever path]

Ppl don’t like anything so, like all things they will rage a bit, then move on

[edgy widget]

again, what people profess to enjoy is irrelevant

M+ participation doesn't really fluctuate with pull size

people might say they enjoy bigger pulls more, and they aren't even necessarily lying when they do, but the real question isn't "do you like bigger pulls" it's "how much do you care about the size of pulls"

funny enough, that distinction is something that comes up a lot in polling and other measurements of evaluating sentiment - a lot of people have an opinion, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily invested in it

[sullen dove]

who cares how big the pulls are just make an effort to make classes more consistent with each other

and not have one or several classes be noticeably worse than a group of others

whether 5 or 15 mobs at a time

[edgy widget]

I think if you were to ask if people preferred bigger M+ pulls with worse balance between classes vs smaller M+ pulls with better balance between classes, the latter would win

even if it didn't, it'd still be better for the game as a whole, and that alone is enough reason to do it - nobody is quitting the game over pull counts going from 15 -> 8

[echo rapids]

I agree that more universal target caps is the easiest way to avoid all the other issues you mentioned

Although it would result in some short term complaining, especially after a season where the goal was pull as big as possible

[hoary agate]

the goal is always to pull as big as possible

and it isnt limited by target cap but can you live this pull

like even if you played with 3 target capped classes youd still pull 20 non caster mobs if you can

[echo rapids]

True but it’s complicated by a purposeful shift away from so many tank busters and casters

[clever path]

But that’s it, a short term complain, they can survive that

[hoary agate]

yes not target cap, agreed high target capped helps these pulls but target cap doesnt have much to do with how big can you plull in m+ usually

always can you live, have u got enough stops/kicks

like uncapped boomie/dk wouldnt be doing 20 size pulls without beam/sigils/mage/druid stops rotation etc

no way

[sullen dove]

Can prolly brute force a pack with defensive and healer cds if you have a lot of dmg

[hoary agate]

if you want to balance m+ classes, I would say utility/buffs being reviewed would have a far greater impact on class diversity than target caps

[clever path]

However, the most populated key range, I think it is from 10 to 12 this season, they aren’t pulling giga numbers, they are forced to bcuz it’s the standard of what they see on videos and end up having a bad experience, like, you are tanking a 12 and you are expected to meld skip bubbles ? Wth? What the helly? Reducing the target count to 8 would make life easier to those players

[hoary agate]

no it would not

youd still make huge pulls

you don't see a 5 target cap party pulling 5 mobs every pull

just doesn't make sense at all

[echo rapids]

Utility is certainly a big issue, honestly every spec should have brez or lust

[edgy widget]

you're right, it is only one factor, but it is still a factor because the inability to kill them as quickly means more time taking said damage

[hoary agate]

every class has a bres and so many classes have lust wouldnt change anything there.

[edgy widget]

well not every class

utility is generally secondary to throughput though

[olive wraith]

Class diversity is a good thing

[glad coyote]

jumper cables

[edgy widget]

drums

[hoary agate]

yea ofc, it "helps" but again pull size is usually related to can you live/stop rotations regardless of target cap

[bitter palm]

jumper cables real

[glad coyote]

every person in my premade has jumper cables

[bitter palm]

also drums there were legit r1 keys done with drums

[edgy widget]

yes and again, the ability to kill the pack before it kills you is a factor in living

hence, they go hand in hand

[echo rapids]

Cables have issues

[hoary agate]

adding a meld pot shows how out of touch they are with balance lol

[glad coyote]

better than nothing

[edgy widget]

does it?

[olive wraith]

Why

[hoary agate]

like ok ill give up a dps pot for meld? whut, youd just take NE still and dps pot or double skip with meld/pot lmao

[edgy widget]

I mean for something you press a couple times per dungeon? not that much to give up

if it wasn't on the dps cooldown then everyone would be using them practically on cooldown though

[hoary agate]

yes but it's a band aid solution and doesnt address even racial balance

dwarf? where is my dispell pot

[edgy widget]

ofc its a bandaid solution lol

that's its point

[bitter palm]

in an ideal world we would be able to just choose the racial

[echo rapids]

Racials should be a flavor thing you choose

[marble pilot]

Does it even fix the issue? Doesnt it cause people to roll dwarf instead.
Granted this is only for the very highest of key pushers

[hoary agate]

yea my point is they need to go harder and address m+ issues, like maybe just disable meld there so racial doesnt matter - or for example reducing the impact of raid buffs so stam/vers buff isnt required like every season pretty much

and yea grundenz you probably go dwarf + pot now if the season has any insane bleeds

[edgy widget]

maybe, but there's only so far you can choose to care about the lengths that the very highest subset of players will do

[clever path]

When they killed Arcane Torrent cuz they were doing nasty stuff on MDI, they didn’t give this potion for an AOE silence, they straight up killed the racial, now not only they leave it untouch, they added 1? For everybody?

[bitter palm]

idk people also roll nf

[edgy widget]

as much as everyone likes to think that they'll be one of those players someday... they're not

[marble pilot]

Yeah I guess im saying the potion itself is weird. Cause for what 98% maybe even higher of the playerbase it does nothing

[bitter palm]

cause its a good looking race

[summer quail]

i mean people go dwarf anyway depending on season

[bitter palm]

its an elf thats not as small as a regular elf

[echo rapids]

I’m not sure balancing around the very highest keys is healthy, but the community at large tends to look to that even if it doesn’t matter

[marble pilot]

Like what % of the player base does anything past 3k rating?

[plush maple]

If you reach 2700-3000 rating this season, does it make it easier to enter keys next season?

[hoary agate]

exactly give more big decisions like this

[coarse nest]

Certainly

[bitter palm]

prolly a bit

[olive wraith]

No. Dps will always struggle to get spots

[edgy widget]

I think the opposite is more true

• it doesn't do much for the very top end (aside from maybe get them to roll dwarf)
• for the majority, it gives them an avenue to use the power without changing their preferred race (which is a good thing)
  giving up a couple potions over the course of a 20-40m dungeon, for them, is not a big ask

[bitter palm]

3.8 makes it a lot easier

[coarse nest]

Just know that guys will be out there with 3500 also

Or higher lol

[hoary agate]

as a competative gamer I want to play the race I want though for looks/mogs but not be disadvantaged

[coarse nest]

People are pugging 18s and 19s right?

[marble pilot]

I see the point. But at what key level does a meld skip even matter? If anything I see it used as a ah crap I accidently pulled click the potion. Instead of the intentional skip uses

[coarse nest]

That’s like 3600io + iirc

[glad coyote]

im onyl dwaft cause i have to be for the racial for m+

[plush maple]

Fair enough, thank you! I don’t have the patience to push further, at 2700 rating and considering pushing to 3k if it makes life little bit easier next season

[olive wraith]

Then why are you playing warrior

[bitter palm]

idk not a single pwar in the top 5 is a dwarf

[olive wraith]

Could do it for the mount

[bitter palm]

all are nelf

[coarse nest]

Go for 3k you get a mount!

[clever path]

I reached 3600 and called it, can’t stand playing Prot any longer

I want do fury around

[plush maple]

Oooh you get a mount

[marble pilot]

I never claimed to be a high end player. At least not anymore. I play fury cause its fun. Doesnt mean Im not interested in the high level stuff and the why of it.

[plush maple]

Thought you needed to get 3k on dps, tank and healer for reward

[coarse nest]

Nah just one character any roll

[glad coyote]

nope 3k rating

[echo rapids]

3k from 2700 isn’t a big leap

[summer quail]

nahh that's a title iirc

[plush maple]

Fair enough

Will push through, I bless my keys and all of your keys brothers

[echo rapids]

Couple of 13s will get you there probably

[clever path]

As of right now, 12s are harder than 17s, ppl make them harder, trying to recreate rank 1 routes, and invite the boomy who is rerolling and it’s bad at his new class, than the surv hunter that have been playing that since vanilla

[coarse nest]

4 12s 4 13s was 3k for me iirc

[summer quail]

don't even need more than 1 13 technically. i only did a single 13 and got 3k score

[marble pilot]

Saw someone get it with only 12s. But they had 2 chested all of them

[coarse nest]

Oh maybe I’m not remembering correctly then

[summer quail]

this is what i did

[lean bluff]

i'd rather play with undergeared alts than people progressing up to 12's at this point in the season.

[echo rapids]

Just run a +15 DFC with guild mates lol

[plush maple]

I may be arrogant but I’d like to believe I’m a good player that’s kicking abilities, avoiding damage (occasionally getting hit but quite good at avoiding) and do good damage in AoE and Single Target as Slayer fury but the pain is getting into groups, I can +3 a 10 and still not get into an 11 key

And I really don’t like running my own keys because I’m not a good judge of character so 50/50 if key gets bricked

[frank dawn]

getting into farm keys is hard af tbh, like I don't know if you make your own groups often but it's a good eye opener to what kind of applicants you're competing with

[glad coyote]

dear lord ty for understanding this

[frank dawn]

you usually have 10-15 dps sign up in less than a minute that are near max ilvl and 3k+ rating

[plush maple]

Yeah that’s hard to compete with but I guess my keys are too low for that as I barely get any applicants

[glad coyote]

or every DH tank thinking they can skip around a room and pull 4-5 packs cause DH best tank and gets 1 shot and blames healer and leaves all within 10 seconds of key

[frank dawn]

well yeah at this point in the season might be different, I haven't played myself the past few weeks

[modest condor]

low keys this late in the seaso are funny

i've had runs where the tank died and then i held aggro until they were back without dying

[glad coyote]

low keys any point in the season are terrible, people need to stay with the middle of the pack

[red berry]

did a key last night. 10 floodgate just for a friend vault. the dk tank kicked the healer in the first 3 minutes directly after the first pull

‘because they sucked’

nobody even died lmao

[winter shoal]

I feel like with current gear you have to actively try to die in a 10

[red berry]

yeah you can sleep through them

[edgy widget]

the real tech is to just stop doing keys after prog

[modest condor]

but high keys is the only thing keeping me entertained during a season

[winter shoal]

You don't raid anymore right silm

[chilly fractal]

Be careful getting too high… you may never come down

[modest condor]

right

[fading sky]

I mean my fav is pull in priory. Well sev of em where tanks just run in no defensives and turn their back to 8 mobs

[red berry]

itemlevel increase did make a lot of bad people think they were better

[chilly fractal]

Honestly it does surprise me the amount of people that want to do high keys… I haven’t smoked weed in many years but the last thing I wanted to do when I would is play WoW… /s

[modest condor]

tbf that happens every season

[modest condor]

im dutch it's part of my culture

[red berry]

tru

[chilly fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/culture-austin-powers-dutch-gif-10931343

[modest condor]

same

[vernal laurel]

It is, pretty obvious answer

[remote bobcat]

Absolutely not

Its inherently bad for fury design

if every ability hits near every target then you end up playing close to full ST rotation

just no.

[edgy widget]

its good for dps meters, that's about it

and despite popular narrative... they're really not that important

[vernal laurel]

For design you are absolutely correct, but for actually feeling good and community perception (meaning you get invited to keys), its one of the top things for the devs to consider.

Just really boring to always bottom meters when you are doing everything correctly, our dps being good on prio and 5 target packs (if we get some buffs) does not really adress that unfortunately

[azure tulip]

Make friends and you don’t have to worry about “pugging”

Plus kinda a based take when I know several fury warriors that made it past 3500 with pugging alone

[dense elbow]

If the problem is low DPS, why would you want to push that upon your friends?

[eternal sundial]

overall doesnt time keys but ppl dont want to admit that

[azure tulip]

Exactly

[vernal laurel]

Absolutely, but that is not really the experience for the majority of the playerbase

Most people pug

[azure tulip]

But wait, you’re saying “majority of the playerbase” as in the majority play M+

You know that’s not true

[dense elbow]

Oh dont go the whole 'verbal trap' route of discussion

[vernal laurel]

Nah, i just think a majority of the playerbase plays solo

Or with 1 or 2 friends

not enough for a full m+ team at least

[azure tulip]

But fury doesn’t lack anywhere other than M+?

I mean we could be better in raid but that’s a whole nother discussion that involves raid design

I do get what you mean tho

[vernal laurel]

Not great in raid atm ye

And M+ is the largest game mode (Excluding LFR)

[azure tulip]

What are you saying when you say “verbal trap”

[fast mural]

take stix and bandit out and fury is doing pretty well

well its also decent on stix

im just saying multidotters and boomies are so insane it makes fury look bad on those fights

[azure tulip]

Yea what? Fury is fine this tier for raid lmao

[vernal laurel]

Yep, always ok to fine, never great

[dense elbow]

The moment you start to argue what terms mean, or how they are used - pretending there is no context, to derail the conversation or in another way not lose a point.

Example, "Fury is weak", people talking about M+ all the way. You go: No, [start discussing raid]

[fast mural]

why is that a problem

the issue here is not the raid and never was

[azure tulip]

What do you mean “argue”?

[fast mural]

the target cap only fucks fury in m+

[dense elbow]

MrTrick, you live up to your name

[azure tulip]

[vernal laurel]

No i agree that being fine in raid is completely ok, but being the literal bottom of the barrel in m+ for the whole expansion is not ok

[fast mural]

S1 nerfs still showing its effects

[edgy widget]

lol what does that even MEAN

[vernal laurel]

People invite big numbers

[edgy widget]

you completly miscontrued the entire statement my dude

[azure tulip]

What IO as fury did you hit Alla?

[vernal laurel]

Oh did i? Sorry if so, could you explain what I misunderstood?

[fast mural]

why does this look like ai wrote this

[dense elbow]

cause you not used to ppl using words

[vernal laurel]

Currently 3.698 IO as Arms, stopped doing Fury keys around the +17 range

[dense elbow]

your brain hurt

[edgy widget]

is uncapping good for the game
"it's good for damage meters, not much else"

• uncapping more leads to higher numbers across the board
• capping more leads to lower numbers across the board
  if everyone has similar relative numbers, whether capped or uncapped, then there is no impact on "community perception"

[fast mural]

im not used to them using proper punctuation

[summer quail]

i don't understand what targetcap has to do with community perception. how much damage it does will alter community perception, not target cap. if fury did insane damage but was still target capped it would be meta and people would invite

[edgy widget]

it doesn't have anything to do with it lol

[summer quail]

that was meant to be a reply, but i'll leave it standalone

[edgy widget]

some people are just so number obsessed that anything that results in larger numbers = good and anything that results in smaller numbers = bad

which is silly and not a good basis for decision making

[vernal laurel]

No well the community perepction as i understand it is "Oh fury is capped lol, cant do good dmg"

[coarse nest]

You could be target capped at 2 targets but if you’re the biggest number on details at the end of the key you’ll be favored

[edgy widget]

again, that was not the context of the question or followup statement lol

[fast mural]

its almost like "target cap" has become a buzzword for people hating on tuning

[edgy widget]

nobody is arguing that Fury should be arbitrarily capped more than another class (at least not without some unrealistically hefty damage tuning to account for it)

[dense elbow]

Target Cap is indeed the buzzword

[vernal laurel]

Exactly

[edgy widget]

then why do you keep responding as if people are making that argument? lmao

[formal ravine]

Which would require the spec to be doing disproportionate damage compared to an uncapped spec to pull the same number. Given furys damage is a cleave of your main abilities which is your single target as well you would be looking at fury doing something like X3 the single target to do equal Boomie aoe. So yeah caps matter

[fast mural]

they can also just make the cleaved dmg more than the main ability hititng the main target

[dense elbow]

Not all pulls are giga, tho. A 50% buff on our ST should push our lower AoE to become valuable in M+ to a degree that will affect community perception.

Or they can just, buff our AoE tools.

[edgy widget]

you would have to find an elegant way to make it work, like scaling damage w/ # of targets hit or something; it would be funky I agree

[vernal laurel]

Nobody is saying that Fury should be target capped to 5 because of reasons, everyone wants buffs to make it good for 5 targets of course. But if we cant get that, I would rather they just uncapp Meat cleaver just make Fury a normal spec without restrictions

[edgy widget]

yeah a casual 50% buff on single target, lmao

[dense elbow]

Yep

[edgy widget]

none of what you just said has anything to do with the conversation at hand lol

[dense elbow]

If we dont top meters and are mad good, ppl wont care

[formal ravine]

Which again leads to the same problems. One that uncapping fixes easier

[summer quail]

can just tune down meatcleaver if our st was too good. tho it would be annoying to find the right balance so maybe uncapping it in a way is easier

[vernal laurel]

Thats what I am mainly talking about? What was it you talked about?

[edgy widget]

you responded to me my dude lmao, asking what I meant and I explained it

[coarse nest]

Keep us capped at 5 just crank the knob so that we do the best damage to 5 targets by a solid 10% or more

[formal ravine]

Meat cleaver if anything would need a buff in this scenario not a nerf.

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, I said that the community percieves Fury as doing bad dmg (Later i further talked about it being mainly because people know that fury is capped)

[dense elbow]

10% stronger on 5t, will not make up for being 50% weaker on the AoE pulls. Sadly.

[coarse nest]

We’ll make the number bigger

[edgy widget]

that all came after the initial comment though lol

[formal ravine]

Again not a solution. If the pull has 20 units what's the point of you doing 10% more in 5 targets when everyone else hitting 20 will still do more ?

[coarse nest]

Like we should be heavily desired in a key like ToP for example

That’s not a bad thing

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, you said that it would be good for dps meters

Which I agree with

[fast mural]

what if there is a season without a dungeon like ToP tho

[coarse nest]

They just don’t tune accordingly

That is the problem

[edgy widget]

no, I said that uncapping (in a general sense) was only good for dps meters

[formal ravine]

Part of tuning is the target capping aspect though

[fast mural]

also only being good for 1 dungeon doesnt sound like thats a good spec

[vernal laurel]

yeah, and I agree that it would be exactly that

[formal ravine]

You think any DK saw them capping their spec at 8 and said "perfect that's what I wanted"

[vernal laurel]

Think we are arguing the same thing here

[edgy widget]

Ok let's back this up, cause it's kinda going in a circle

• you prefer more targets, bigger numbers, etc etc
  that's fine - nothing wrong with that opinion, and it's well established that pretty much everyone loves chasing more/bigger/better/badder, whether it makes a practical difference or not

but as far as the game is concerned, reducing everyone's target cap down to a more sane and common level would be better than increasing everyone's to a more inflated common level

That's my point

[soft merlin]

BIS trinket / rings up for fury yet for season 3 ?

[coarse nest]

Again, the entire problem is they don’t tune appropriately for the target caps they force

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, you got it

It would absolutely be better for the game

[coarse nest]

A spec that does a gorillion damage to 20 targets should be behind on ST and 5 targets or less considerably

[formal ravine]

I doubt it's feasible to cap everything in the game without bringing everything to shambles.

It is so much easier to uncap 2-3 leftover specs than cap 53

[fast mural]

blizz is too traumatized by legion to uncap anything

[vernal laurel]

Or blizzard just doing a better job tuning the classes that are supposed to be good at specific jobs, IE 5-target cleave etc...

[edgy widget]

it's perfectly understandable why people number chase; if seeing a ton of increasingly ridiculous numbers cluttering the screen all at once didn't spike dopamine, games like Diablo and probably the entire ARPG genre simply wouldn't exist

but like everything, there is absolutely such a thing as too much of a good thing, to the point at which it becomes detrimental lol

[coarse nest]

Legion was amazing

Wonder why that is

[fast mural]

imo raids carried that expac

[formal ravine]

A lot of people I've heard claim it has the best m+ too

[dense elbow]

Doubt Fury warriors are part of em

[fast mural]

we´ll see when legion remix hits

so we all get reminded

oh wait

legion classic*

remix uses retail specs

[limber oar]

Isnt arcane mage capped? But theyre meta and get invited to keys

[summer quail]

i think that is mostly rose tinted glasses ngl. what legion had was amazing class design, m+ itself was new and exciting

[edgy widget]

Not sure I’d say it was the best, but it was a simpler time for sure

[fast mural]

tank threat wasnt an issue at least

[edgy widget]

Legion had a lot of power fantasy too, which again - dopamine in chasing the all-mighty number

[formal ravine]

I got no opinion personally I didn't play

My guildies say it was great

[vernal laurel]

Insane funnel and single target dmg, nothing that Fury can compete with atm sadly

[edgy widget]

I think it’s artifact system was really nice, despite a few hiccups

Arms and Fury were both pretty fun to play, but both also had pretty severe design flaws

[fast mural]

execute

[summer quail]

i also think getting several chests was really satisfying. if you +2d a key you got 2 chests, tho i understand why they got rid of it

[edgy widget]

Not to mention incredibly specific Lego dependency, so “class design” was a bit of a mixed bag

[formal ravine]

The issue is the game has gone and evolved towards a direction that going against it now would do more harm. People enjoy pushing higher and getting better target capping goes against that. Even in dungeons where pulls are smaller people are finding ways to make them bigger to go further.

[edgy widget]

Juggernaught sucked ass, Rampage was buggy af, clipping GCDs was problematic, etc etc

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, but at least both Fury and Arms were brought to Rank 1 keys. A majority of the higest keys in the world during 7.3 had dps warrior in them

[dense elbow]

Arcane is a funnel spec, and it does pull the numbers. Where Fury AoE does 10m DPS, arcane will do 15m DPS and delete the prio target. Situation is far from equal.

[edgy widget]

Neither arms nor fury were meta in Legion M+

[dense elbow]

Noone would complain about things, if we simply did the numbers

[summer quail]

i think the only severe flaw arms had was its mastery

[vernal laurel]

I mean, they were brought to rank 1 keys, check Raider https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-7.3.0/all/world/leaderboards-strict

Or am I looking at the wrong stuff?

[edgy widget]

I mean warriors did rank 1 keys last season, what’s your point?

[formal ravine]

I mean Shadowlands was 2 expansions ago. And look how different it's now when the dungeons return. Always changing how they are played and going bigger and bigger.

[vernal laurel]

The front page is filled with warriors, dont think we have seen that in a long time

Would be really fun to have that again

[summer quail]

genuinely think legion arms was almost flawless. "almost" being the keyword

[vernal laurel]

Both specs as well, goddamn that was a nice season

[young swan]

there was that brief period of arms greatness for the first mdi

[formal ravine]

I don't think there is a need to be in the rank 1 section or nothing. But being more desired across the levels of m+ would be nice.

[fast mural]

look at ret

technically not a meta spec

[edgy widget]

Yeah, still not strictly meta though

[fast mural]

but its popular as shit

[dense elbow]

I would take not being actively shunned as good enough

[edgy widget]

Perhaps, but that’s a critique of tuning not design

[vernal laurel]

I mean, is it not meta to be doing the highest keys in the world?

[edgy widget]

Not technically no

[vernal laurel]

If a really good amout of people are doing it*

[formal ravine]

I agree yes. Queueing up for hours on end is unfun as hell

[coarse nest]

Thank you!! I loved the artifact weapons I whole heartedly want that back forever

[vernal laurel]

Not just 1 or 2

But like, the whole front page has a single spec, is that not meta?

Or am I misunderstanding meta?

[edgy widget]

Warriors were in a strong spot, no argument, but that doesn’t mean their design was perfect, just that they were strong

[coarse nest]

I get it’s kinda annoying to not ever loot a big weapon as an upgrade but like the artifact weapons were so cool

[storm birch]

I like warrior

[vernal laurel]

Completely agree, not arguing that at all. But they were very strong, and I would absolutely say that they were "meta"

[summer quail]

what do you think were the flaws for legion arms? yes i know i'm biased, just curious to hear

[edgy widget]

ok, I'm not going to sit around and split hairs with you, but that's still not an relfection on their design - both specs still had a ton of flaws

[chilly fractal]

Meta can only by definition be only 5 specs… or less if its most effective to double or triple down

[vernal laurel]

I am not really arguing for design at all in this specific instance, just said that they were very stong in that season. Would be nice to return to that for once

[fast mural]

so aura buffs would do the trick for you ?

[formal ravine]

The thing is meta is not defined by how perfect something is but what numbers it can do. Destro lock was outperforming specs in Shadow lands with almost no gear equipped. And yet if you ask people they will say it was "good"

Aura buffs are such a bandaid fix

[vernal laurel]

I agree

[heavy galleon]

Fury has problem since they hard nerf TR and OF

[coarse nest]

People only care about overall damage

I’m telling you guys

Design could be absolutely dog shit

If it pipes nobody complains

[fast mural]

yep

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, just look at Outlaw

[heavy galleon]

True

[formal ravine]

They did a good job on fury with buffing rotational abilities than just aura buffing. But that led to more filler abilities to be neglected so aura buffs are lazy fixes.

[fast mural]

isnt buffing rotaional abilities just an aura buff ?

[formal ravine]

No?

[fast mural]

if nothing changes the rotation

[earnest canyon]

not true for me....fun> damage....it just needs to do ENOUGH damage to not be sandbagging/stopping a boss/instance being completed

i dont like arms but i do more damag

[summer quail]

aura buff means buffing everything that does damage except auto attacks

[fast mural]

idk if buffs dont change gameplay they are equivalant to aura buffs in my book

[vernal laurel]

Honestly, Raging blow having 20 bajillion modifiers is not that fun. Big boom buttons are, like Odyns fury and other capstones

[edgy widget]

Well that's fine, but my statement stands
Arms and Fury were both pretty fun to play, but both also had pretty severe design flaws

[formal ravine]

Aura buffs = buff everything equally

[heavy galleon]

@edgy widget do you think they will change something on fury this patch ?

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, in complete agreement

[lean bluff]

it would be way more fun if they buffed wrath and fury instead of raging blow this time

[edgy widget]

wouldn't expect anything major before 12.0, no

[vernal laurel]

Surely that they use the data from the M+ testing and realise that Fury needs severe buffs

Right?

[fast mural]

ok so buffing rotaional buttons only make all other buttons more useless your right

[heavy galleon]

I Hope we got nice change for 12.0

[lean bluff]

you think fury is getting invited to keys on ptr? lmao

[summer quail]

yes

it is

[dense elbow]

You are, but I get the joke

[fast mural]

11.2.5

[heavy galleon]

Key design is just garbage as Fuck

[formal ravine]

Right now we gotta hope first they fix it on ptr and major changes probably will come on 12.0 which makes more sense. It also comes with a level squish so maybe a lot more changes by then

[vernal laurel]

Even if they were not, would that not be a statement in itself?

[edgy widget]

Well Slayer got a pretty huge tier set, and if Thane's is improved to match that would equate to a pretty solid buff

but I don't consider tuning to be the same as changes

[coarse nest]

Don’t mention when CS reset didn’t proc

[lean bluff]

Slayer will look good on raid logs the first 2 weeks and fury will overperform in M0 because of 3 second burst and slayer will catch a few nerfs and fury will continue being dogshit

[fast mural]

legion CS is just juggernault now

[south kayak]

People are complaining about spamming Slam 3 times in a row but in legion you were spamming it for ages if you got no CS proc lol

[vernal laurel]

Gotcha, some changes would be great though. We have several weeks left, surely there must be time to do some talent tree changes and stuff?

[dense elbow]

Dont worry, we aint even close to outperforming anyone

[summer quail]

so satisfying when it did tho. hard to find a balance between satisfying procs and procs that just feel meh(like overpower)

[formal ravine]

Slayer already struggles to maintain it's DPS post burst so once key level increases you will see the drop which probably will mean no nerfs unless they go too far buffing us now till patch hits.

[dense elbow]

We dont even lead DPS during the burst

[gleaming siren]

There's not 4 weeks to make changes, that's not how the cycle works. The time to make actual tree changes is basically over.

[edgy widget]

to answer your earlier question about design flaws in Legion @summer quail, Arms was a major one trick pony

• most of its talents were deader than they are now
• outside of a couple capstones, most of its artifact traits sucked too; the mastery was problematic and there was a huge reliance on CS resets
• this also meant that there was very little relic power scaling, whereas Fury could stack their all-important crit damage node

I also, personally, think that the Heroic Strike addition was pretty half-assed and didn't really fit the gameplay very well, though it did lead to big numbers so people didn't really mind

[summer quail]

that is a wild comparison my guy

[formal ravine]

Well on lower keys shit just dies during bladestorm

[lean bluff]

Guy's do you really expect blizzard to do tuning? like come on. Arms and Fury design is flawless, the class is popular and played by a lot of people and Blizzard has extremely limited resources

[south kayak]

If

[gleaming siren]

They now have 2 weeks to do big picture tuning, then they make a build a release candidate and generally don't make sweeping changes afterwards

[coarse nest]

Arms has been a great feeling spec for a while they just need to kill off this juggernaut stack gambling and I’d be very happy personally

[formal ravine]

Flawless...?

[vernal laurel]

No I mean like, we have not gotten a single line of changes as of yet, would that not indicate that they are simply just cooking up some bigger changes since way before, but is just not ready to release them yet?

In an ideal world

[gleaming siren]

No it does not indicate that at all

[dense elbow]

In an ideal world, we get final week tuning that puts us in a great spot for live.

[summer quail]

cheers for the answer, those are all things i did not think of except the mastery part which i mentioned as well. i agree that heroic strike is not fun, i know other people love it but ogcd abilities are not something i enjoy

[vernal laurel]

Why not?

[dapper goblet]

shadowlands beta

[edgy widget]

• I think oGCD is fun when you have a stable main GCD rotation
• I don't think its fun when it takes resources away from the GCD
  MoP Fury in low vs high gear makes a very good example of that

[gleaming siren]

@vernal laurel

We're at the end of the cycle

[vernal laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/dumb-and-dumber-lloyd-theres-a-chance-jim-carrey-gif-11098164

[gleaming siren]

Pretty much

[formal ravine]

They won't overhaul the specs now. All they will probably do is tune shit for a bit and that's it

[gleaming siren]

They don't make large changes generally without some room to dial them back or iterate

[edgy widget]

there are a few more changes coming, but you shouldn't expect a major talent tree overhaul, no

very little point in doing it now anyway, with 12.0 on the horizon

[lean bluff]

It's more likely an indication they're happy with where the specs are at

[vernal laurel]

[gleaming siren]

Most of the changes coming now will be iteration on already changed trees or tuning

[dense elbow]

They keep saying they are happy where Warrior is at

[lean bluff]

Go read the morgan day interview recently. They're really happy with dps warrior

[edgy widget]

fwiw, they said they were happy with the way it plays

[lean bluff]

or at least they think about it / hear so little feedback about it they assume it's fine

[vernal laurel]

I do wonder by what metric

[edgy widget]

and the way it plays is actually pretty solid

[vernal laurel]

For pure gameplay, sure

But actual performance?

[edgy widget]

raid performance is great

[frank dawn]

yeah I mean, the spec is fun. It just needs some love with the tuning knobs available to it

[formal ravine]

Fury specifically plays super well I think too.

Arms is so clunky in many ways

[summer quail]

i do think legions overreliance on cs was exarcerbated by the mastery. yeah it would still suck to get major dryspells of cs without it, but it really made it worse. the procs felt so goddamn good

[vernal laurel]

It really does, just sad that the numbers dont match

[frank dawn]

I have a hard time buying into some of the discourse on forums of fury needing a "massive rework"

[south kayak]

I don't think a spec that has a builder doing more damage than a spender plays great

[formal ravine]

Rampage got buffed enough to do more

[edgy widget]

Arms issues are mostly Slayer issues due to Slam streaks and gaming Juggernaut, both of which the tier set helps address

[vernal laurel]

Eh, great is a strong word. Would you not agree that we are a bit under average numbers wise atm?

Just going by logs

[edgy widget]

Colossus is pretty smooth though

[lean bluff]

We shouldn't expect too many changes for 12.0 given all of this. Blizzard's resources are extremely limited and the expac is likely almost done at this point

[edgy widget]

not really no - Arms is one of the better ST specs in the raid and Fury is pretty high on most of the MT fights

[formal ravine]

It smoother but then colosus execute is also whack. Would like a bit more to make it somewhat more important

[edgy widget]

Fury has dropped a bit because obviously fights are getting shorter, but during prog it did quite well

[summer quail]

it's so close to the best version of fury imo. literally just remove a bit of power from raging blow and it becomes great. especially next tier with sd being high prio

[vernal laurel]

Aight, just going by the wowhead post recently we are closer to the bottom than the top and all that

[edgy widget]

this was a really solid warrior raid tier

[formal ravine]

Well I disagree on that..

They avoided warrior DPS a lot after sprocket

[edgy widget]

I mean if you average all fights, yeah, Fury is low, but that's also after a dozen power spikes that have dramatically devalued the raid

[formal ravine]

Liquid had no DPS warrior on oab and mug

[edgy widget]

who is they lol? nobody in here should give a shit about what the RWF did

literally none of you raid RWF

[south kayak]

I just wish Raging Blow wasn't doing so much. If the damage priority was Rampage > Exe > BT > RB it would be great but meh

[edgy widget]

they are playing an entirely different game

[lean bluff]

dan is literally right there

[gleaming siren]

There is 3 bad warrior fights this tier realistically and that's Vexie, Rik and Bandit

For one reason or another

[edgy widget]

dan is streaming, not listening to this asinine convo

[chilly fractal]

Dan is mid Sprocket right now

[vernal laurel]

At like week 5 we were at the same spot as we are now though

[earnest canyon]

they are playing a different game to 99.9% of us though

[gleaming siren]

There is a DPS Warrior spec that performs solidly above average on 5 out of 8 encounters

[dense elbow]

As long raid is aight, then all is good M+ content is optional, and by being infinietly scaleing impossible to balance without extreme measures (that would hurt the raid). As such, M+ situation for Fury is fine. Better M+ suffer, it is for the greater good.

You can always do 12s easily. And if you want to push... Heck, even raid doesnt matter, as you can always just wait for aurabuffs from renown track to cower any slack and lack.

Want to do M+? People don't want to invite bad DPS? Don't you guys have phones?! Contact a friend.

[gleaming siren]

and that's been the case for basically the whole patch cycle, arguably Warrior was even better early on

[lean bluff]

if this is the tuning we're happy about, then fuck

[gleaming siren]

🤷‍♂️

[summer quail]

agreed. this is more of a me thing, but i personally do not think arms can be fully satisfying with overpower on tactician. but youv'e suggested some changes in march earlier this year that would fix arms completely for me. would be nice if those came true

[south kayak]

You're supposed to be happy about doing above average lol, if you're only happy when being top 5, then you need to rethink your life choices

[edgy widget]

hard goal to hit when people aren't "happy" unless they're on top of everyone else

[young swan]

even bandit isnt like... horrible

[formal ravine]

Why ? Why is it so bad to want to do more than average?

[gleaming siren]

Bandit especially early was pretty bad tho

[dapper goblet]

warrior has been good the whole expansion

hate to say it out loud

[vernal laurel]

Just being in the upper echelon for one season, both in raid and M+, would invigorate my love for the game so much

[edgy widget]

people forget that performance is strongly dictated by your raid comp, especially on MT fights

[coarse nest]

Bandit is fine unless they make you leap and grab the far coin…..

[south kayak]

I'm not saying it is but people should be happy about doing above average

[fast mural]

cause then you wouldnt play warrior

[coarse nest]

[edgy widget]

Fury could actually do pretty well on bandit if you weren't stacking locks & spriests

[smoky vale]

xeos for yellow

[gleaming siren]

Now that nothing matters on Bandit anymore yea Warrior is fine

[edgy widget]

but if you were, obviously yeah it was gonna do poorly

[young swan]

id attribute that more to ww/spriest/dragon being insane than to warrior just being awful tho

[gleaming siren]

Bandit was very polarizing yes

and comparatively Warrior was bad

[young swan]

agreege

[edgy widget]

people have no sense of nuance though, they just look at a bar chart and take it at face value

[lean bluff]

I think most people just want to get invited to M+ pugs

[edgy widget]

good thing we were talking about raid

[south kayak]

I burst like 20+ M on bandit on pull as evoker, that's just crazy. That spec just owns on bandit

[lean bluff]

relevant to tuning discussion

[gleaming siren]

Bandit was bad enough that any Warrior player with a Warlock alt they play semi-competently would have likely done their raid a disservice NOT offering to play that Lock

[edgy widget]

also of course people want to be invited to M+ pugs, do you know anyone who doesn't wanna be invited to M+ pugs?

[vernal laurel]

As long as that bar chart influences invites to raid and m+ it still impacts a lot

nuance or not

[gleaming siren]

Which of course was true for a lot of specs

[edgy widget]

probably why we led the conversation with "Warriors did well in raid

[coarse nest]

Please never invite me to mythic plus pugs

[edgy widget]

no amount of tuning or design can compensate for stupidity
you know how I know? Rogues routinely die to avoidable mechanics

[coarse nest]

!!!!

[gleaming siren]

But yes in raid Warrior has been very solid this expansion so far

[lean bluff]

no one cares about raid, mythic raid is like <1% of the community no?

[vernal laurel]

I mean, if the brown bar is at the top, it very much does something.

[edgy widget]

lol no it doesn't

[vernal laurel]

It absolutely influences the community

[edgy widget]

it just shifts the disgruntlement onto someone else

[vernal laurel]

and the amount of invites you get

[fast mural]

and how many people do +20s and higher ?

[formal ravine]

About right but doesn't mean noone cares.

[vernal laurel]

Which is very important for many people

[edgy widget]

yeah you're happy and now everyone else is sad

[coarse nest]

Nah raid is the staple in the game

[dense elbow]

Raid balance usually dont matter much for M+ picks

What matters is if every M+ dung starts with huge AoE pulls for the first 2/3rds of the dungeon and Fury is 30-40% behind at that point. Even if we claw our way back to 10% behind after ST bosses and smaller pulls... the damage has been done.

Community perception is easily formed on the first impression. That being "fury warrior is doing 10m DPS, when hunter is doing 25m. Warrior is shit!"

[coarse nest]

Mythic plus is starting to take over

But raid has always been the main thing

[vernal laurel]

POV: You are a mage

[jolly marten]

well you seem to reply a lot in a sense like "things are more complicated than they look" and i dont find it true everytime.. you dont have to study a university to just keep everything inline.. it is just a matter of willing or not to keep things balanced

[gleaming siren]

And so is higher, coordinated keys where Warrior would actually struggle

what's the point

[vernal laurel]

Always allowed to be at the top

[edgy widget]

Yes it is important for many people - remember earlier when I said people are generally jealous, self serving, and short sighted?

"not my problem"

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, that is the community

And it directly influences peoples experiences

[chilly fractal]

If I didn’t have to do M+ for raid… I’d never do M+ and I’m waiting for that day

[edgy widget]

brother if you think it's even remotely possible to balance WoW to the degree people want it to be... I'm sorry but you should find another game lol

[chilly fractal]

Actually I would for the mount and stop

[formal ravine]

I think m+ is much more active than raid overall. It's so much easier to find 4 others to do a run of dungeon either to push or win friends or pugs compared to raid.

[edgy widget]

WoW is never gonna be balanced to the point people want it, even ignoring the people who don't actually want balance and really just wanna be better than everyone else

[young swan]

it is kind of odd how unreasonably upset the community gets when warrior is good tho

[lean bluff]

I get that it would ruin the game for a lot of people if fury was allowed to do damage to more than 5 targets.

[gleaming siren]

I have not experienced this at all

[coarse nest]

Warrior isn’t mage

That’s why

[fast mural]

even the devs

they nerf insta

[slim coral]

That’s cause they’re so use to being the op classs they can’t dread one tier being bad

[vernal laurel]

It is lol, every time warrior is even an inkling close to being good its always outrage

[edgy widget]

nobody ever said it shouldn't lmao

[lean bluff]

blizzard

[chilly fractal]

It’s because they are bots stuck back in 2004-2006 and think Warrior is like Vanilla Warrior

[summer quail]

they were big mad week 1 of nerubar

[edgy widget]

more like every time someone on top is displaced, there's outrage

[jolly marten]

not in the degree that ppl wants but its quite obvious to fix a few things here and there.. its not rocket science that fury is perfoming poorly and that the season 1 nerfs was too much

[edgy widget]

doesn't matter who is replacing them

[formal ravine]

Ok but week 1 of np we were outliers of the top end

[summer quail]

yes

[formal ravine]

Even for the top we were too high

[edgy widget]

They already reverted the S1 nerfs during S2 tuning

BS and OF both got huge buffs during S2

as did Reap and other stuff

[jolly marten]

nope.. they buffed our main skills.. still our cds are terrible

[vernal laurel]

It is, but when warriors are topping charts they get insta nerfed by the devs. When mages are topping charts its all fine and dandy for the devs

[summer quail]

that first aoe nerf was definetely deserved. we were insane for that raids profile

[vernal laurel]

That is my perception at least

[gleaming siren]

Warrior was also unreasonably strong week 1 of that patch

[lean bluff]

lmao

[dense elbow]

In heroic level content

[jolly marten]

so huge that noone is playing OF even after 30% buff

[gleaming siren]

But let me tell you something, the same happens to every class in the game that is the best

[fast mural]

rashanaan made fury look too good

[edgy widget]

In Season 1, they nerfed Bladestorm by 10% and OF by 15%
#updates-midnight message

4 weeks ago, they buffed Bladestorm by 30%
#updates-midnight message

the following week, they buffed OF by 30% (they also already buffed it by 15% when they changed Titans Torment)
#updates-midnight message

So yeah, they more than reverted those nerfs - they just did other balancing too

[formal ravine]

The thing is at this point it feels like raid and m+ are in conflict of tuning. Cus we are fine on raid but m+ is getting the short end and given how both are pve and affect each other it's leading to this issue now.

[sour frigate]

Not really lol

[vernal laurel]

It really was only good for fights it was supposed to be good for. Actual performance after that (in M+ especially) was not that great if i remember correctly

[dense elbow]

It wasnt great, it had a niche tho

You did get outperformed on mass AoE and such

but we were really great at thinning and not to mention weaken packs

[jolly marten]

nah we also got some flat dmg nerf and ofc the target cap is a nerf

[south kayak]

PTR update posts coming looks like, anyone else excited not to see warrior?

[edgy widget]

smh

they didn't target cap anything that wasn't alrready capped, that's not a nerf

they also didn't do any "flat damage nerf"

[gleaming siren]

They were supposed to cap Roar

[edgy widget]

they just buffed the rotational abilities more

[gleaming siren]

they just forgor

[lean bluff]

ive been spamming it as a bug on PTR. hopefully fixed soon

[slim coral]

So many good changes to Streets

https://www.wowhead.com/news/tazavesh-and-halls-of-atonement-dungeon-updates-mythic-season-3-377685

[gleaming siren]

Or rather they capped the initial damage instead

[coarse nest]

100k says they don’t hav warrior blue post

[slim coral]

[coarse nest]

[vernal laurel]

Great changes

[slim coral]

They better

Or else

[sour frigate]

Removal of signet was critical imo

[vernal laurel]

Did they not reduce the targets that affects Roar and Odyns Fury?

at the start?

[edgy widget]

Also the 11.0.5 changes were like a 3-5% nerf in AOE, yall need to stop the victimization acting like they neutered you

[south kayak]

#fury message

[gleaming siren]

crazy victim mentality honestly

[edgy widget]

OF has been capped since Dragonflight, they just never put it in the tooltip

Roar's DoT isn't capped

[south kayak]

#fury message

[vernal laurel]

Ah right, just the initial hit

[chilly fractal]

the dot is the real damage

[edgy widget]

yeah which does no damage

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, very true

[slim coral]

The real change I’m looking for is the target cap one

[gleaming siren]

any change to streets is good

[edgy widget]

it's just a vehicle for the dot, kinda like thunder clap applying rend

[slim coral]

The day that happens is when fury will be goated

[gleaming siren]

I didnt read yet but if Shroud isn't hard required big W

[vernal laurel]

My man

[dense elbow]

That day has already passed

[fast mural]

legion classic

[chilly fractal]

actual classic

[dense elbow]

I am scared of how many ppl gonna be disapointed about Legion

[gleaming siren]

Wait did they REMOVE fish stick totems from Gambit

[lean bluff]

If Fury is good that means another spec got comparatively worse. You're literally rooting for human suffering

[edgy widget]

and don't forget, Warrior currently has some crazy strong tier set bonuses (thane notwithstanding) in S3

[formal ravine]

The fish stick no longer heals itself. Remember if we didn't kill the first fast and a second came it was freaking over.

[south kayak]

PLEASE buff the thane set

[jolly marten]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/more-class-tuning-incoming-fury-warrior-and-arcane-mage-nerfed-346702

3%

[chilly fractal]

I already consider it the worst expansion of all time so I'm not gonna be disappointed

[fleet pasture]

wtf?

[jolly marten]

yeah its 3% not much but its a flat nerf

[edgy widget]

Yes, which was compensated by buffing individual spells
that's not a nerf

[vernal laurel]

Is the Fury Slayer set good for M+?

[south kayak]

that's old

[summer quail]

old post mate

[fleet pasture]

oh

lol

[vernal laurel]

That be old news

[fast mural]

lmao

[vernal laurel]

hahaha

[edgy widget]

they buffed rotational spells by upwards 40%
they buffed OF and Bladestorm by ~30%
and you're complaining about a 3% nerf?

[fleet pasture]

i was ready for war

[coarse nest]

A NERF

L M A O

[fast mural]

dont make people lose their minds posting S1 nerfs

[coarse nest]

https://tenor.com/view/dead-my-honest-reaction-damn-skull-skeleton-gif-15885937969029652188

[lean bluff]

nerf fury aoe ur right.

[vernal laurel]

Mate you have the whole server fooled

[south kayak]

Only one guy got fooled

lol

[vernal laurel]

hahaha

[coarse nest]

Shh

Play along

[edgy widget]

anyway, as I was saying, we're going from a tier bonus that's worth ~5% in S2 to a tier bonus that's worth ~25% in S3

which may not be "traditional" tuning... but it's a pretty fuckin huge buff

[south kayak]

I am actually going to lose my mind if we don't get any thane set tuning

[formal ravine]

That's going from no set to S3 set ?

[dense elbow]

It is decent, not excellent, not bad. You get a bit more storm power from frequency, and the prio dam bump "helps".

Important to note (4) aside, (2) is fun on bosses

It just a matter of tuning overall (and other classes). The set itself isn't especially good for M+.

[fast mural]

do you think we get a tuning pass before mythic raid testing ?

[formal ravine]

Cus 25% seems too much from current

[edgy widget]

they both are

[chilly fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/brain-explode-mind-blown-omg-shocked-surprised-gif-16619739

[lean bluff]

Don't talk about m+ in here. Raid only discussion

[edgy widget]

its too much for anything, but I'm not complaining

[vernal laurel]

Aight makes sense, the (4) piece just seems really weird.

It does not affect the meat cleaver raging blows no?

Just seems weird

[dense elbow]

It is more a ST focused thing, than AoE

It makes sense if you do long raid fights

[edgy widget]

brother you stepped into a conversation specifically about raid to complain about M+, when we already established that Fury sucks in M+ - quit being a baby about it lol

[vernal laurel]

Yeah, but would be a lot more fun if the they changed RB to Rampage instead

[formal ravine]

I don't get what you mean

[young swan]

correct

[edgy widget]

fuckin nobody in here pretending Fury don't suck in M+, we don't need to be reminded every 30s... we've already lived it lol

[vernal laurel]

The 4-set bonus effect, where Raging Blow can trigger Reap the Storm, doesn’t seem to be inherited by the four Raging Blow procs from Whirlwind cleave, crippling the intended synergy with Reap the Storm. As a result, the Slayer bonuses perform poorly in AoE-heavy content. Pressing Raging blow also feels very bad when you also have to prioritise Bloodthirst and Execute in the rotation as well.

[formal ravine]

Oh you mean the proc is not increased in chance ?

[young swan]

basically the 4 piece doesnt work like reap does

[coarse nest]

Fury sucks in M+ incase anyone forgot

[young swan]

so its essentially worthless in m+

[edgy widget]

short answer

• the 2p is there to buff ST, the 4p is there to buff AoE (although both do both to a smaller degree)

[edgy widget]

I mean it's not worthless by any means, it's just not completely imba

[jolly marten]

yeah we said that, still our perfomance was terrible since they nerfed all our cds, im talking about m+.. also it was so weird desicions.. it made are main abilities so strong that we keep talking stat talents to increase our dps while almost ignoring and cd we have.. thats bad design and its not rocket science to figure it out... im an average-bad player and i cant understand that keep buffing the main abilities aint the sollution

[candid falcon]

i hope the devs dont do what they usually do, and actually make cleaved RBs trigger Reap