protection

[tranquil mortar]

The sky is blue guys

[brazen yarrow]

yes

[sweet summit]

necro good for dps

seismic very strong

[brazen yarrow]

necro good

[sick sentinel]

when i get shield, i get shield, is what it is

[tranquil mortar]

@strong forum whats does setup look like for lego and talents for +2 farm

[sick sentinel]

why so worried about it unless like ur trying to get into i dunno 23's and you soft-need the extra block value

[rough egret]

forthe starter i buy some from AH 😄

[strong forum]

I'm playing kyrian seismic

Cuz can't extend banner at all

[urban portal]

Damn are we discussing the 2s meta

[sweet summit]

hope not

[urban portal]

Blood dk is the worst tank in 2s

There’s that

What’s the tier list looking like

[sweet summit]

tanks are banned from arena tier lists

[urban portal]

I meant m+

2s

[sweet summit]

oh

okay sorry

[toxic pewter]

honestly prot warrior is really strong in pvp

[sweet summit]

no

[urban portal]

That’s the only meta we chase

[sweet summit]

i will ban u

[toxic pewter]

I own

people literally run from me

i am also 10-0 in duels at the moment in zereth mortis

[strong forum]

Dueling is dead since legion

[fluid stirrup]

Blood dk is fucking cracked in 2s

[toxic pewter]

nah prot warr stronger

[tranquil mortar]

Agreed

[fluid stirrup]

Try killing one I'll wait

[toxic pewter]

outburst shield slam is legit

its so strong even after the nerf

also do as much dmg as dps and heal as much as a healer

[brazen yarrow]

bear>prot>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else

[toxic pewter]

na prot is best

[fiery badge]

I thought they nerfed 1 shot Prot cheese

I was memeing in a BG and I still hit someone for a 32k shield slam lol

[strong forum]

its no longer 80k crits

[fiery badge]

I’d rather just play Fury and do more damage

[urban portal]

Its not a true one shot but you can still bring them low for execute

[fiery badge]

You’ll still never die to melee but I don’t know how well Prot warr fares in frost mage/destro lock meta

[chrome falcon]

you can totally still die to melee

i've been 1 shot during a rogue's burst window

they're 90% of shadow/nature damage

nice shield bro

[urban portal]

Well don’t they go behind you also

[chrome falcon]

you're stunned so doesn't matter where they go

point is that our armour is worthless

[fiery badge]

Yeah it’s fun to meme in BG/Wpvp with

[waxen orbit]

@sweet summit When tank in PVP

https://tenor.com/view/batman-beat-down-take-that-gif-19730855

[sweet summit]

violence

[fiery badge]

Yeah run the PvP talent that makes ur heroic leap stun + leaper lmao

[rough egret]

If i dont have friends to run with is still necro better than kyrian? 🙂 im reffering to the guide that tells to make group around mastery ppl that can use banner buff.

Or fuck them, necro is still best for me?

[urban portal]

Yes

Necro is best for you

[distant crystal]

banner is just gravy

[rough egret]

Alright

Im curious whas gonna be 🙂 I made DK 3 weeks ago, im very close to 3k on it, was nice change from guardian, now i picked warri should i prepare to be declined? 🙂

Asuming overall perspective on tanks

[cinder storm]

Be prepared to push your own key more often than not

[waxen orbit]

Most people plebeians still think prot warr is in the position it was in S2 so yeah prepare for declines unless the lead has actually played with a prot warr this patch

[sick sentinel]

Create or push your own key, you may not believe it but you are the only person in charge of your own destiny

[rough egret]

So no change, i did that on every new toon 🙂 so np

By every, i mean twice 😄

As for the trinkets its same as for other tanks right? Codex worth in 25+, untill then go full dps trinkets, maybe scale is nice to have from tank trinkets

So i will be good with 246 OWS

[rough zephyr]

charge generates 40 rage but the tooltip says 20, is there something increasing it?

[urban portal]

Reprisal

[rough zephyr]

awesome thank you

[sick sentinel]

also things that increase rage, conduits and cd's

[fallen rose]

is this any good?

[fluid stirrup]

Hahahaha

[fallen rose]

take that as ano

[sick sentinel]

WTB

i like it

[fluid stirrup]

If you otherwise don't have a trinket

[fallen rose]

lol that bad realy

[fluid stirrup]

I mean it's not total dogshit, but there are definitely superior choices

[fallen rose]

is it still bloodscale wee are after

[sick sentinel]

whats the exact details on how it chooses a target for absorb

[fallen rose]

what is bis for tankyness

[sick sentinel]

could be a solution to high keys

if you can more or less garuntee who it goes on and then you just plan accordingly

[urban portal]

Outside of aegis there’s really nothing outstanding

Aegis scale

Everything else suck

[chrome falcon]

and even scale is pretty bad outside of giga keys

[fallen rose]

realy so the SoD trinket is still the best

[sick sentinel]

i like scale alot because its aoe damage and an asborb

[fluid stirrup]

The protoforge ally proc goes on whatever caused the damage that proc'd it, afaik

[sick sentinel]

so you charge in, tc, scale, avatar, SS

[fluid stirrup]

And only prevents damage to you

[sick sentinel]

you did 2 aoe attacks, and have a small bubble up now

[fallen rose]

so shard from SoD what sshould i aim for my second to be?

[waxen orbit]

Quick everyone go into the hunter discord and say BM is viable

[lofty widget]

Phial, sack, anima emitter, ows, soleahs Are All good choices

[fluid stirrup]

I've always wanted to be banned from the lodge

[waxen orbit]

I changed my PFP to a low res troll face, I'll be lucky if I make it past tonight

[sick sentinel]

bm used to be fantastic in 8.3 i know, because you have 2 pets doing AA and few modified attacks, but it also played like current pwar everything resets everything else

i could do that rotation easy

[fallen rose]

ty

[waxen orbit]

Don't use anima emitter unless you have nothing better

OWS, Phial, or Sack

[sick sentinel]

i'd use AFE if i got it, cuz i don't have better

[waxen orbit]

Only swap out OWS for So'leah if it's DOS or Spires where you get downtime between packs and can't keep OWS rolling at 5 stacks

[sick sentinel]

uhh, i'd have to see all the trinkets but its something like worst to best haste ones are WQ shit, AFE, soleah, and then better is gland, ows, i don't want to speak on elegy, as it looks weird AF but i'd use it tldr

[sacred timber]

worth wasting sockets on 272s if I have nothing else to upgrade

?

[lofty widget]

Yeah? Unless you get super lucky next week and roll a 278 of that piece with no other upgrades thats Def worth

[chrome falcon]

depends how much access you have to 278s

if you're not mythic raiding then yeah

[distant crystal]

If you want to play it safe you can just wait until you need to loot more tokens from vault

Like basically when you need to spend them because you're full

[sacred timber]

I have 5 socket things sitting in my bank

cause all my vault has been trash

[distant crystal]

oh right you can stockpile those

[sacred timber]

yea, I think the only piece I dont have at 272 is shoulders

and I have enough valor too, I'm just lazy

[sick sentinel]

i have 2 or 3 275's and so skyhold is mald at me for not try harde

[fluid stirrup]

Those could've been 278s

Smh

[sacred timber]

Also, is there an intervene wa?

to see CD

[dawn canyon]

You can make one from presets

[sick sentinel]

long as nobody leaves i got a 278

im way more than ready that armor patch should be the super duper one instead but i can just buy 1

[dawn canyon]

Youll time it

I believe in you

[minor helm]

Make sure NF is in group

[sick sentinel]

basically what happened when i ran the mists 13 did final boss and at 95%, dk pulled group unit for some reason, i went for air, only needed like 1 guy, dk instantly dies, wipe, make it with 4.5 seconds to go

unforseen consequences

[sacred timber]

@patent osprey best wa ever

ty ❤️

[fluid stirrup]

Kinda small?

[sick sentinel]

this is the for yogi WA isn't it?

[teal swift]

I had a weak aura thst would "ara Ara" at me when my rage was going to cap

[sacred timber]

share plz.... not that I want that or anything

[cinder storm]

Where do you find something like that...so I can never find it

[craggy pilot]

he probably made it himself

[cinder storm]

theres a few on wago like that, I use the one that has charge/intervene on the same icon

but I might need to resize mine like that too

[tropic linden]

I use Doom Pulse Cooldown

Pretty useful

[agile pumice]

I made a Saul Goodman weakaura for spell reflect

[toxic pewter]

I know this might sound crazy but is it bad to macro ignore pain to my main abilities to help with spamming it for rage consumption

[jagged pier]

yes

[toxic pewter]

Y

[wanton ridge]

Using IP when u can do more dmg

[toxic pewter]

Ignore pain off global cooldown

[urban portal]

You should only use ip to not over cap

If you use ip at like 40 rage it’s pretty bad

[wanton ridge]

Ye but wasting rage

[toxic pewter]

Ya true

I’m going to do it. Going all in

Gonna ignore a lot of pain

A lot

[wanton ridge]

But theres no pain

Only revenge

And slammin jammin

[toxic pewter]

No I decided to take revenge off my bar

Going to be a ignore pain prot warr

With some rare thunder claps

[fluid stirrup]

He's a pacifist!

[wanton ridge]

But damash go up

[fluid stirrup]

Go join the monks u hippy

[wanton ridge]

[toxic pewter]

Iwill be hard to kill

[sacred timber]

https://wago.io/lZIDn9Nzu

[urban portal]

Imagine thinking ignore pain is a real button

[cinder storm]

@sacred timber

[sick sentinel]

it is done

[jagged pier]

so your gunna miss out on a tone of SS resets so you will miss a tone of rage

[toxic pewter]

It’s ok I like thunder clap more@then revenge

Revenge is a flawed ability

Thunder clap looks cool

[rough egret]

I should play AM over HR right? for m+

[jagged pier]

always

[toxic pewter]

Play hr if you want

[jagged pier]

no

[toxic pewter]

It’s just as correct.

Wat u mean no

[jagged pier]

its not

with tier and necro

[toxic pewter]

He likes hr that’s a fine pick

I personally run bolster

[jagged pier]

u should always be playing AM it feeds the double leggo tier set sygnergy

[rough egret]

I was reading wowhead guide,, and then I moved to IV and there are some things not aligned

[toxic pewter]

I play venthyr. I am a condemn prot warrior. I do 14k dps

[jagged pier]

wowhead and icy viens havnt been updated in a long time

but icy viens is written by mwahi

[toxic pewter]

Who that

[rough egret]

im an adult so I wanted to read things first then ask here

[agile pumice]

Orange name

[fluid stirrup]

Oranj

[toxic pewter]

Is icy veins better than wowhead

[urban portal]

all the guides suck equally

[ionic fern]

?

[toxic pewter]

I like icy vein

[rough egret]

as for conduits, its alright there right?

[sick sentinel]

HR is dead

[rough egret]

or is AJ the play?

[sick sentinel]

i'm doing this but sure

[ionic fern]

AJ is the play in raids/tyrannical.

You can make a case for SoF on fortified keys

But generally AJ should be your go-to.

[sick sentinel]

yeah, not on SD though maybe i'd say cuz literal zero dps increase on final boss

can't execute ever

[urban portal]

reasonable statement

[sick sentinel]

even then, still tons of shit to execute along the way

[sturdy sable]

Maybe the real treasure was the executes we made along the way

[tropic linden]

Rlly like third boss sanguine

It's a joke as prot war

[urban portal]

yeah every other tank malds over it

except us

the iron maiden goes too brazy on most tanks

[sick sentinel]

14 sd last night i did that i missed a block or 2 on iron spikes

"doesnothing" well, i didn't do the thing but it did somethin, not enough to kill me

[toxic pewter]

I play condemn with ashen juggernaut

It’s the correct way to play prot warrior.

[sick sentinel]

i can't imagine how

[wild hemlock]

someone take the bait

[toxic pewter]

It’s not bait

It’s legitimately the best covenant

[wild hemlock]

r u drunk

[sick sentinel]

what is your wow character

[toxic pewter]

I keep that private

[sick sentinel]

if there is a 9.2.5 would be fun to see prot venthyr get buff

[past grove]

https://tenor.com/bjZPn.gif

[sick sentinel]

guy running around trying to chop everyones head off

[toxic pewter]

It’s actually super strong right now

It’s the best covenant

With 4 pc

[sick sentinel]

i have to time keys first so im gunna stick to banner

[toxic pewter]

Can execute over 80%

[urban portal]

and other jokes you can tell yourself

[toxic pewter]

Yeah stick to being a sheep more like it

[wild hemlock]

please someone take the bait

[toxic pewter]

I’m over here telling you solid information.

And you all ridicule me.

That’s fine

[wild hemlock]

proof or logs my dude

[sick sentinel]

i don't want to yet

[fluid stirrup]

Yeah I agree with apb it's best covenant for sure

I dont have a prot warrior currently leveled but my mental theory crafting backs me up

[toxic pewter]

Yeah the numbers make sense

Outburst procs nonstop executes. It feels great.

[urban portal]

i dont have wow installed but my mental theorycrafting backs me up that mawsworn prot war is bis rn

[fluid stirrup]

Yep, mine does too

Anyway back to final fantasy

[toxic pewter]

Mock me all you want

[vernal vale]

.<

[toxic pewter]

I will note this conversation when the time comes you all will apologize to me.

[urban portal]

it feels good because you unbound revenge

[sick sentinel]

tell u what if i start timing these 15's we'll see about venthyr prot attempt

[urban portal]

so thats your only damage button

[toxic pewter]

I condemn you all at this time and place.

[past grove]

wut

[sick sentinel]

if i did a whole bunch of 15's this week, like 8 i would try venthyr maybe

[toxic pewter]

Give it a try

[urban portal]

or it could be your revenges cost 55 rage instead of 20 because you bound IP to your revenge

[toxic pewter]

You’ll thank me later

[tranquil mortar]

The secret maw rattle build?

[toxic pewter]

Everyone is missing out because they follow the necrolord blindly

But it’s actually venthyr the strongest with 4pc

[sick sentinel]

what.... so you unbound revenge and binded devestate?

[urban portal]

we love not having a covenant

venthyr prot war pov

[vernal vale]

https://tenor.com/view/trollfacelmaaaao-gif-23938565

[urban portal]

actually lemme find a log

those logs must be lit

[toxic pewter]

Log of what

[urban portal]

people playing venth prot war

[wild hemlock]

your dumbass ranting

[toxic pewter]

Oh venthyr prot

Oh

[wild hemlock]

sorry that was rude

[toxic pewter]

Yeah you won’t see many recent ones

[wild hemlock]

but dont preach without any numbers

[toxic pewter]

Too many sheep

[fluid stirrup]

Wait hold up, you're talking about venthyr prot WARRIOR?

[toxic pewter]

Yes

[wild hemlock]

yes

[sick sentinel]

if i time these keys a whole bunch i'll do it

[vernal vale]

Share logs to prove your point or your just trolling.

[fluid stirrup]

I thought we were hyping up venthyr prot paladin, my mistake

[toxic pewter]

Execute 40% of the time with ashen juggernaut and 4pc outbursts avatar

[fluid stirrup]

The theory crafting no longer backs it up

[toxic pewter]

It’s legit.

[wild hemlock]

its not. stop

[toxic pewter]

But it is

[past grove]

what does outburst have to do with anything

[urban portal]

we gonna look at a halls 20 or a mists 20

i have a log for both

[toxic pewter]

Chain executes with outburst procs on

[wild hemlock]

quit taking bait

[toxic pewter]

Mobs with 80% or less than 20%

[sweet summit]

venthyr stinky

[urban portal]

no no erga

im analyzing this log

im taking this bait

[sweet summit]

ok sorry

[sick sentinel]

what log

[fluid stirrup]

Yellow has spoken fight over

[sick sentinel]

no log

a shit log

[toxic pewter]

It’s legitimate.

[past grove]

I figured out why. This dude unbound revenge and IP

[toxic pewter]

Oh that was a joke lmao

[urban portal]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xz1Ra9pAV8nbfvCh#fight=2&type=damage-done 7.2K active time DPS

holy shit

9.1 damage

in fact lemme see if people does more in 9.0

[toxic pewter]

He playin it wrong

[past grove]

this dude doing 3k in his keys

[sick sentinel]

i have to learn to banner and ravager before fight and im good

[sweet summit]

still times keys

[sick sentinel]

but thats my dmg because i don't do those things

[sweet summit]

so np

[wild hemlock]

this guy is a blood dk thats bored

[urban portal]

got nothing better to do at work than to take the bait

[sweet summit]

[toxic pewter]

It’s not bait

You’ll see

When you try it for yourself

[past grove]

maybe he wrote the tier list because he doesnt know how to play warr

[urban portal]

i was wrong, a 9.0 kyrian does less damage than a 9.2 venthyr

[sick sentinel]

okay, so i have alot of the stuff required to do that but not 274 ilvl

[urban portal]

disregard the 50 ilevel gap

[sick sentinel]

242 poopy stinky shield

[toxic pewter]

Well you all mock me now but you know deep down 40% of the time executing with 4 pc is legit

[past grove]

wow this dudes condemns do less than some executes I've seen with the juicy strength bonus

[sweet summit]

no

[wild hemlock]

holy monka

[toxic pewter]

That log is not real.

[urban portal]

its a doctored chinese log

[toxic pewter]

It’s by a bad prot warrior.

[past grove]

fake news

[urban portal]

hes just editing his numbers to keep it down

[sweet summit]

[wild hemlock]

legit is not a number apb

[toxic pewter]

That guy was not condemning nearly enough

Well mock me all you want

[past grove]

we will

[urban portal]

@sweet summit doesnt execute do the same damage as revenge on 3t?

[fluid stirrup]

I mean, just ...throw us one of your logs to prove us wrong

[toxic pewter]

I don’t keep logs

[sweet summit]

revenge better @ 3

[fluid stirrup]

If we're all idiots surely you can disprove quickly?

[urban portal]

ok cool

[past grove]

condemn is like 4 targets

[urban portal]

condemn is the same damage as execute

[wild hemlock]

he said its legit what else do you need to know

[fluid stirrup]

Start keeping them and run something, can't take that long

[toxic pewter]

How do I keep a log

[urban portal]

give or take 3% or so

[fluid stirrup]

Shit you right mb

[sick sentinel]

if i had 274 ilvl i would take the bait

[past grove]

welp guess im changing

[sweet summit]

execute should hit harder than condemn after the 9.1 buff no?

[toxic pewter]

Condemn hits about the same

But the key is you can do it over 80%

[sick sentinel]

condemn should hit like a truck

[fluid stirrup]

https://www.wowhead.com/how-to-use-warcraft-logs-to-improve-character-performance

[urban portal]

i think it was 10% less before the buffs

[past grove]

you can revenj over 80 too

[urban portal]

so we get that 10% going, it should be the same

so im gonna say the same give or take a couple%

[sweet summit]

ye sure

[toxic pewter]

Ya but condemn also got ashekn juggernaut. So you’re critting a lot

[fluid stirrup]

Tldr: type /combatlog before you start, then upload the log when you're done

[sweet summit]

ashen at 50% value yea

[agile pumice]

Execute also has ashen and it's better for non venth

[toxic pewter]

I also run only crit build

Crit build with venthyr

[past grove]

0 haste

[sweet summit]

[toxic pewter]

It’s the meta

[deep steppe]

no haste, no mastery, no vers

[wild hemlock]

critics build is supreme

[toxic pewter]

No one is talking about

[deep steppe]

only crit

[past grove]

full crit mastery

[vernal vale]

https://tenor.com/view/looks-like-a-little-troll-party-lennart-bedrager-south-park-internet-trolls-trolling-gif-20408226

[toxic pewter]

Crit Vers. Venthyr

Not I’m not trolling

[urban portal]

if you have enough crit mastery, you just dont bind shield block

[wild hemlock]

this dude is sitting back just laughing

[fluid stirrup]

I don't think you quite understand what the word "meta" refers to

[urban portal]

you saved 30 rage

[fluid stirrup]

If no one is talking about it

[past grove]

I mean you're not wrong 😆

[toxic pewter]

Listen I’m trying to educate you all

It’s the pick no one is talking about

[sweet summit]

i think this is enough shitposting for now

[toxic pewter]

VENTHYR

Crit build 4 pc

Try it out

Not trolling

[agile pumice]

What's the synergy here

[deep steppe]

When Erga is going you know its bad lmao

[past grove]

synergy between 2 braincells

[wild hemlock]

to rile up the discord

[toxic pewter]

Why are you all mocking me

[wild hemlock]

and thats literally it

[toxic pewter]

Seriously

[wild hemlock]

youre fucking trolling

[toxic pewter]

What have I done to deserve this

I am not.

[sweet summit]

because it is numerically weak

[past grove]

https://tenor.com/4tO2.gif

[agile pumice]

[toxic pewter]

How do you know if you never try it

[deep steppe]

[urban portal]

caine i think you are the only one riled up

im having fun

so is erga

[sweet summit]

i am not having fun i hate prot chat now

[white viper]

Venthyr is BIS

[sweet summit]

literally worse than #fury

[fluid stirrup]

Immediate response: "several people are typing"

[toxic pewter]

Nothing to be riled up ever. Sorry for trying a different build other than necrosheep

[fluid stirrup]

Woah wtf did fury do to you :(

[past grove]

again, prove it. Simple.

[sweet summit]

degenerates

[past grove]

always

[toxic pewter]

Ok I will prove it

[cinder storm]

You can sim a build no?

[sweet summit]

you can sim patchwerk pretty well

but aoe sims are not perfect

[urban portal]

sniping condemn is too much damage

that is certainly unaccounted for in the sims

[sweet summit]

[toxic pewter]

The 4pc outbursts actually let’s you condemn back to back for 40% of mob life

It’s really powerful

40k crits back to back

Feelsgoodman

[past grove]

[vernal vale]

I avoid fury for that reason

[sacred timber]

+20 btw

holy fuck how can you be that bad

[toxic pewter]

Is that venthyr

[urban portal]

it is if you close your eyes

[sweet summit]

havoc doesn't do a lot of damage in m+

[toxic pewter]

Who’s bad

[urban portal]

havoc is buff bitch

[toxic pewter]

Oh the dh

[urban portal]

5%

[sacred timber]

the fucking dh doing as much as a tank

and dying 9 times

[sweet summit]

because the spec kinda sucks

[urban portal]

dh does as much as a tank in MDI

just fyi

[sweet summit]

ah

[toxic pewter]

Honestly the paladin is the problem there

[sweet summit]

that's not a spec issue

[toxic pewter]

The healer needs to do more dps

[urban portal]

it is if you are playing momentum

[sweet summit]

[vernal vale]

I mean I'm a shit fury and I do 11k fury

[sweet summit]

fury =/= havoc

[toxic pewter]

I do 14k prot venthyr

[sweet summit]

okay

good for you

[urban portal]

i do 20k Rdruid

kyrian though

i put my bond on someone

and all their damage is mine

[sweet summit]

real

[past grove]

scrubs I did 17k in 225gear from 9.0

[vernal vale]

True. Just saying I'm bad fury. Lol

[toxic pewter]

What’s ur ilvl

[hallow herald]

im 291, i have all legendaries in all slots

[sweet summit]

reported

[toxic pewter]

Wat

Some major trolls on here today

Weird vibes that’s for sure

[cinder storm]

I was full socket mythic raid geared week 2 this season.. scrubs

[sacred timber]

272

[fluid stirrup]

Wtf hacker

[toxic pewter]

Nice

[sacred timber]

also didnt have any uptime on OWS cause idiots kept dying

[sick sentinel]

that did happen TBF

[fluid stirrup]

Not even using tier lmao

Noob

[sick sentinel]

that actual did happen

[toxic pewter]

What’s ows

[sick sentinel]

someone found way to put all legendaries on together

[past grove]

trinket that makes you condemn more

Yeah, put on the 291 shadowghast item, then go craft into leggo

[strong forum]

ez way to get banned

[past grove]

I would hope it was fixed but wouldn't be surprised if it isn't yet

Got your shield yet?

[urban portal]

damn casual 1.6k dps down

[strong forum]

nop

[urban portal]

never simmed it

but thats not brazy

oh @strong forum I think kevin is undersimming

the sim desnt refresh the fleshcraft mastery in combat

[strong forum]

yes

cuz its a dps loss

[past grove]

I got tired of running theater so went to do some keys on my lock instead, get theater as key and tank drops a shield...

[jagged pier]

we tried that

[urban portal]

ic

[jagged pier]

it wasnt worth it

[strong forum]

to reapply fleshcraft even for 1gcd

[urban portal]

obviously you would do it in a real fight

since lots of downtime

[strong forum]

during downtime sure

but not in actual combat

[urban portal]

need to edit my illegal 3rd party rotation helper

[sweet summit]

LMFAO

that was a good one

miss the guy...

[sacred timber]

Old Warrior's Soul

[urban portal]

we dont get bangers like those often

[quaint glade]

I use it too idk why tho lmao

[urban portal]

especially after ronin left

[sacred timber]

gives a massive stacking haste buff for being staying in combat

[quaint glade]

I just like to see some shiny things

[sweet summit]

got banned you mean?

[urban portal]

the mods were afraid of his power

#protection never got to enjoy ronin

[sweet summit]

appeared briefly

on the rare occasion

[urban portal]

we need to make a list of bangers

i only joined in shadowlands

so i probably missed a lot in BFA

imagine if I go to EU

find todu

and casually mention Ronin

i wonder what his reaction would be

[sweet summit]

@autumn pendant has some banger screenshots i'm sure

[autumn pendant]

Well i need to plug in my external disc

[sweet summit]

👀

[jagged pier]

👀

[autumn pendant]

Call me Historian of Skyhold

[teal swift]

I made it. And deleted everything wow related when I quit.

@cinder storm

[autumn pendant]

Though not sure how much i have on Ronin

Those should be recent 👀

[autumn pendant]

https://tenor.com/view/drinking-bird-toy-gif-23203330

[sick sentinel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw243n4djCs

[autumn pendant]

Thanks for improving my image

[mystic yoke]

is it me or is DOS just an awful dungeon for prot tanks?

[sweet summit]

it does fuck

[strong forum]

its pretty awful in ther ing

[sick sentinel]

pull #2 if you ar going to to the right is (horrible thing)

[mystic yoke]

all the mobs on the middle ring just wreck me

i'm guess due to the magic dmg

[toxic pewter]

Dos my least favorite dungeon in all of wow history

[vernal vale]

Shadowcore is a must kick.

[sweet summit]

it's just shadowcore and bonestrike nuking your hp

kick shadowcores and mini kite the bonesoliders

[vernal vale]

^

[jagged pier]

[sacred timber]

other than SoD what can I do to upgrade these

[sick sentinel]

https://youtu.be/YU0AWYGAeKI?t=1057 DoS on fortified weeks: i just need to stop for a second because i don't think i've properly discussed this game, i'm not sure i can fully describe, every moment is suffering and confusion and regretting every choice i made in my life that brought me here.

[mystic yoke]

yeh makes sense, my HP was litterally plumpeting if a single cast went through

[urban portal]

phial is good, get a scale for lower pull count dungeons (dont kill yourself over it)

[mystic yoke]

also, if you die mid pull and get rez, any tips of getting aggro back? if shout if already on CD?

[sick sentinel]

taunt, charge TC>revenge>ss in aoe SS>revenge>??? st

u get heavily increased threat through damage while your taunt is active and it builts more threat, i want to say 400% for 8 seconds or whatever the taunt duration is

[urban portal]

@vernal vale

[mystic yoke]

ah didn't realise that

[sick sentinel]

so, taunting on death is extremely important, shout if you can i gues

[urban portal]

this is still a thing on wcl

[craggy pilot]

TC is filler always

TC i mean sry

[sick sentinel]

thats also how you keep aggro on pulls and why u do SS early with OB, cuz it will build giant threat

[craggy pilot]

but saying TC > SS in AOE is wrong

[sick sentinel]

you'd just do revenge then?

[grave crane]

Slam SS on cd

[craggy pilot]

slam SS on CD

slam TC on CD

but dont overcap

SS > TC always

[grave crane]

TC on cd unless outburst obv

[craggy pilot]

ye if outburst dont touch TC, unless its beginning of the pull for snap threat

[lofty widget]

even then you dont TC

[vernal vale]

My dream will never die.

[urban portal]

at the beginning of the pull it should be charge ava revenge SS

[sacred timber]

have phial, but should I use two non-active trink?

[urban portal]

up to you

[craggy pilot]

you can

[urban portal]

nothing inherently wrong

[craggy pilot]

phial + sack is a very popular combo

[sacred timber]

I would do Phial OWS

[craggy pilot]

i would too

but dont have OWS 😄

and its old content

Phial + Soleah could also work

Phial + AFE

[urban portal]

Soleah +elegy to get the same amount of haste as ows

[vernal vale]

I'm running phial, decanter right now.

[strong forum]

Afe + low ilvl phial

Cuz im Bad like that

[weary lodge]

codewx

[rugged mural]

You swapping away from AFE this week because of Sanguine?

[wanton ridge]

How can i start loving prot?

I hate it

[dawn canyon]

do more damage/play better idk

its a personal thing

ultimately

[craggy pilot]

lol rly? is the stat budget that high? 🤣

[craggy pilot]

what do you hate about it?

[sacred timber]

can phial be aoe'd?

[lofty widget]

you can apply phial with aoe abilities yes, it will go on your main target

[urban portal]

Idk not sure

I’m just mending

Meming

[strong forum]

No?

[strong forum]

Codex isn't good outside of rygelon mythic and +30 keys

We're like the worst tank to use codex on

Codex is great on vdh and even they only start using it on like 24+

Bdks don't use them until 28/29

Or well, should

[rough egret]

whats your banner uptime in m+?

[lofty widget]

above 80% is good

[sick sentinel]

more shield slam, more charge

[wanton ridge]

Aggro pull on aoe

[rough egret]

hmm, will tier make it easyier to maintain?

[lofty widget]

yeah a lot easier

[rough egret]

I just did a +2 mists, and had like 31%

0 tier

[lofty widget]

can get 100 % uptime with 4p2l

[rough egret]

how 4p interacts with it?

[lofty widget]

more rage, more banner basically

[strong forum]

More outbursts

= more Banner

More Banner = more rage

More rage = outburst

[craggy pilot]

just toss in a ravager+avatar and you will be good, and spam revenge

[strong forum]

More outburst = rage

[craggy pilot]

aoe aggro shouldnt be an issue

[strong forum]

Ergo

Rage = rage

[craggy pilot]

if it is, you can use first Outburst on TC, and it will be 0 issues

[wanton ridge]

Gonna try, Ty. Today DoS got me nightmares

[craggy pilot]

DoS is tough dungeon, but as long as you use Revenge, you should be good

and remember to kite the caster packs, they only cast if you are in melee

[rough egret]

so 200% more effective SS also generates 200% more rage ?

[craggy pilot]

yes

[rough egret]

alright

[craggy pilot]

thats why we never click TC with Outburst, only SS

[rough egret]

alright

[wanton ridge]

Good tip

[sick sentinel]

same logic as fury

feedback loop

[sick sentinel]

[distant crystal]

[grizzled steeple]

Not trying to kick a hornet nest, sorry.

I 100% understand necro in m+ with outrageous banner uptime and revenge! Dmg. However, would it actually be feasible to run venth in pure ST for raid; IE Skolex/halondrous/rygelon? Having the shield to soak up the magic damage and pump ST dps through condemn and extended avatar?

[weary lodge]

Lol thanks for replying. I'm just a noob that meant to search "codex" and was in the wrong window LMAO. Once I did search I did notice it seems quite bad.

[sick sentinel]

i know the giant itervene wa is suppposed to be a meme but how do i make it 50% opaque

[vernal vale]

Venthyr has bad survivability comparably

It also does less damage based on sims

[grizzled steeple]

Is it just numbers/scaling? It seems like it should be the correct choice.

[lofty widget]

condemn hits for less than execute iirc

[grizzled steeple]

I thought it was 1:1

[vernal vale]

Because ashen juggernaut gives half value to condemn.
22٪ strength from 100% banner is stupid strong

[lofty widget]

22 % strength from banner, and they buffed executes dmg by 10 % some time ago

[grizzled steeple]

Oh well that makes no sense.

:p

[vernal vale]

Condmn does far less damage because you have it at the start and end.

Very often execute will be one of your most damaging abilities already.

So they had to make condemn do less damage

[uncut bronze]

Is Intrusive Thoughtcage better than Codex?

[grizzled steeple]

That’s my mistake then. I thought condemn and execute were interchangeable with the exception of doing over 80% trigger.

[lofty widget]

no

[mighty valley]

Condemn's lower damage is misleading because it's shadow and thus ignores armor

But yeah, they did buff basic execute back in season 1 to catch up a bit

[sick sentinel]

OPC is trash for us yeah?

[mighty valley]

decent dps, but that's all

not bottom tier

[sick sentinel]

war and hunter in the gorup wants it

[cerulean wyvern]

I'm rocking my FCM with avoidance....

[mighty valley]

i'd let dps have it, they probably care more

[cerulean wyvern]

you can keep if if you off spec arms

[sick sentinel]

i can get somethin better

[lofty widget]

strength trinket so probably not hunter

[sick sentinel]

a random hunter in our guild did that in a key shrine got the fish trinket traded to him

dk friend malded out

[sacred timber]

guess which players just got keystone hero on this key

[sick sentinel]

kyrian weapons looks like he did pretty good dps

[sacred timber]

Just proved to myself that I can tank without aegis

at least 20s

[wanton ridge]

I know necro it's top tier, but kyriam m+? With mekanikos? Im too used to Spear things

[lofty widget]

kyr is less dps and less defensive, and this week theres sanguine too. i wouldnt recommend it

[cinder nova]

Aegis is for baby men, I like Sigil so I can do huge DPS and get big DR on quad pulls

[sacred timber]

never even thought of that

[urban portal]

They are interchangeable yes

Give or take couple %

[patent osprey]

pain

[sick sentinel]

ignore it

[toxic pewter]

I am a venthyr prot- through and through

I condemn you all

[wanton ridge]

Ty chimi

[brazen yarrow]

i condemn u to be squishy and deal little damage

[eternal moth]

Hey, do you guys have any recommendations for videos of a regular prot warrior banging out a +20 or something with details' real time ability list or something open? I'm having a lot of trouble keeping 100% banner uptime, and I'm guessing I'm doing something wrong, but it's hard to see from just logs (the logs say I need to shield slam more, but I'm having trouble cramming in more slamming outside of the target dummy room)

[patent osprey]

In keys it's very unrealistic to have 100% uptime on some dungeons. It requires chain pulling + 0 kiting and no rp. Dungeons like spires, TOP, NW are all very hard when there is RP involved to some degree. But whenever you have constant combat focus on a few things.

1. don't cap rage, just IP spam if you are capping
2. Intervene/Charge weave on CD for the rage + SB so you can have extra rage to spend for banner
3. Outburst on Shield Slam for the chunk of rage
4. Demo shout on cd with booming voice for 40 rage free
5. Chain pull when possible.

[toxic pewter]

That is all bad advice

What you really need to do is be venthyr

[patent osprey]

CAP

But if the key isn't too high and the affixed are good + dungeon, 100% banner is possible just not necessary at all. Could be inting your group like never letting healer drink or something just trying to keep 100% banner

[sturdy sable]

fuck em

[lofty widget]

honestly yes, they have uhr afterall

[sturdy sable]

healers arnt even real people anyways

[cinder nova]

Fight me

Unless you're pushing extra huge keys I've almost never seen a heal have to drink except when you got some real fuck ups

At least the Hpriest I run with doesn't ever need to drink as long as we keep chaining Urh

[patent osprey]

Most of the time with uhr yeah but in high keys u don't always go uhr. Vy is a good option of right before tyran boss fights

[urban portal]

Vy is a higher overall right

[patent osprey]

and then u want to milk the uhr as long as possible to extend healer mana

like a 28 hakkar u want to MILK IT

so healer wants mana prior to going in

or they will be empty too early

[cinder nova]

Nobody but you is doing 28s here plka

[patent osprey]

JUST SAYING

[cinder nova]

[urban portal]

Plka can you give some advice in my 2s

When I multi box 2s to valor farm

[patent osprey]

seismic reverb

[cinder nova]

Kek

[cinder nova]

You got a library of routes curated for Pwarr we can use as a cheat sheet?

I'm pushing 21-23s

But stuff gets really spicy on the latter end

[patent osprey]

I'm gonna go back to playing prot war in keys now

once I get back from Disneyland

so I'll have routes ^.^

[urban portal]

is it going to be patreon tier 2 only

[patent osprey]

yea

[eternal moth]

Thanks for the advice dudes, I think I'm ready to jump straight from +15 to +28 now

[ocean yoke]

huge xymox loot tonight

[crimson furnace]

big mon

big loot

big PP

[vernal vale]

jelous

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hNYvT2ktxrfK7aZH/#fight=last&type=casts

doing better at not wasting rage got myself down to about 1k now

slowly but surly beating it down

[cinder nova]

Raids should be using healing CDs on barrier for H Andy, no? 🤔

[sturdy sable]

yea

[cinder nova]

Okay, I'm getting lit up by this OCE pug RL because I'm standing in barrier because his healers aren't able to keep up before Blasphemy.

Even though I'm taking half the damage he is

[urban portal]

It's also heroic week 200 in

You should be able to do whatever

Blasphemy is high brainpower but that's ok

[cinder nova]

Yeah, I'm already AOTC, I'm just helping these guys because they needed a tank.

I'm consistently 2nd-5th on the meter.

These guys are just really slow on the uptake. I don't speak Spanish, but I can tell they got a lot of dead weight. Not sure if it's family, friends, or just an old guild or what.

Karma facefucked me just now, I managed to make an ass of myself by jumping off the platform.

5th H PWarr NA literal garbage.

[sacred timber]

I did 11k in a dungeon!

[sweet summit]

good shit

[toxic pewter]

of the top 50 prot warrs 22 of them are running best served cold

is it better

seems to be at least competitive

[hazy edge]

I love the SR change

[sacred timber]

Plka runs BV

[toxic pewter]

who is pika

[sweet summit]

bsc is more dmage

[sacred timber]

https://raider.io/characters/us/illidan/Plkawar

[sweet summit]

bv makes it easier to maintain banner

that's the tldr

[sweet summit]

🌰

[sacred timber]

bnut

[shut summit]

i prefer BV

but to each their own

[brittle owl]

slappy boi vs shouty boi

who wins

[stuck kite]

Anyone have a gdoc That répertoriés alll the possible reflect in dungeon ?

[shell shale]

Check the pins !

@stuck kite

[stuck kite]

Noice ty

[toxic pewter]

Is ashen juggernaut better even in fort weeks

[scenic mural]

Dungeon dependent i see plenty wars play either

[hearty terrace]

hey probs asked all the time but is there a time were you stop stacking Hast ? like past 30%?

[strong forum]

40 unbuffed

[hearty terrace]

thank you

[toxic pewter]

How do I get from 34% haste to 40%

[ionic fern]

It's not something you NEED.
I'm sitting at 23% haste and doing fine for example.

[blazing condor]

[echo egret]

Is it worth banging a target dummy to train at maintaining banner up ? Or without mobs beating at you and charge/intervene it's not possible to extend it too long anyway ?

[ionic fern]

It's always worth banging a target dummy to get some muscle memory going and make things in raids/dungeons easier.

Especially if you're still trying to get the main rotation down.

[echo egret]

Tried twice, 1min34 is my best.

[ionic fern]

Do you have double legendaries? - Are you using Reprisal?
Do you have tier set?

1)SS on CD
2)Charge as much as possible
3)Outburst Procs on SS
4)Last Stand with Unnerving Presence
5)Be sure not to waste any rage

[echo egret]

I know the theory, I really need some practise atm 😉

[grave crane]

One thing I’ve found is that I tend to mash revenge and not SS as soon as it’s up. Working on that can help and TC more often has helped me get a bit better and higher damage and banner uptime

[stuck kite]

Délectable means we negate the spell?

No damage dealing if deflectable

[echo egret]

Reflect = you don't get damage and send the damage back on the caster
Deflect = you don't get damage

And don't get the nasty debuff most often

[raven hatch]

as ridiculous as this sounds

I never really thought about this when mashing revenge

my revenge count is definitely too high in dungeons, but i always worry about threat

but say on my urn pull in DOS, I spam revenge without ever really thinking about shield slam

just for damoog's and threat... but probably should focus on SS even in those moments

[grave crane]

especially with uhr its like a 2 second CD on SS. as long as your not gonna cap on rage i think SS before revenge

[strong forum]

More SS = more revenge

[stuck kite]

SS=big aggro clap

[echo egret]

Any specific trick to deal with Beak Slice stacking up rather high when you end up killing most of Ardenweald in DOS ?

[strong forum]

Just kite until dead

Every tank has to do it sooner or later assuming stuff doesn't die

Unless you do it like we did ardenweald yesterday

1 endless pull

We did entire ardenweald in 1 pull took like 8 minutes and 25million sanguine healing

[jagged pier]

see thats why prot bad cant heal

[stuck kite]

[blazing condor]

[mortal brook]

[sick sentinel]

[past grove]

I thought you were full crit

[lime urchin]

frens, what would you use? m+'ing

am I silly for thinking that crafted neck is a major upgrade?

well maybe not major, because crit also juicy

[mellow bridge]

I'd take crafted

altho you kinda chose a bad extra effect

[strong forum]

The effect is w/e

[dawn canyon]

The haste is the big thing

[mellow bridge]

obv ya

[strong forum]

But the crafted accessories are bis until you get a phat Hase 278 with socket

[mellow bridge]

just saying a good effect would make it a bit better even :p

[strong forum]

On my server there was actually no neck with a good effect

[dawn canyon]

I spent i think 9k Gold more for a speed one

[strong forum]

That's fine

But why speed lol

[jagged pier]

avoidance

[lime urchin]

I crafted this effect for a fren, for his mage

what are better effects for prot woijioij then?

[strong forum]

Avoidance is pretty much the only good effect

Everything else is just a meme

[jagged pier]

☝️

[lime urchin]

well that sounds boring

[dawn canyon]

Pvp haste vers neck

[strong forum]

The Str proc sounds giga but afaik the ppm is low and its shit to pick up

[dawn canyon]

That now owns for prot

[jagged pier]

u cant see the thing on the floor tbh

[lime urchin]

hm may give it a try just to test it

[jagged pier]

i have i had it to start with

you literally never notice the ball because it so small

and never procs

its useless

[lime urchin]

allrighty, ill let it go then

[mortal brook]

Speed best optional

Vroom vroom

[ionic fern]

Dedicated Legion m+ speed sets.

Vroomvroom

[strong forum]

Aggramars stride

[blazing condor]

[sick sentinel]

@dawn canyon wants to know if signet is a viable prot leggo in keys

[dawn canyon]

Dude i told you

I will get flamed so im making a reprisal

[sick sentinel]

weak

[mortal brook]

Sure just cancel bladestorm

[sick sentinel]

[ionic fern]

You spelled Seismic wrong.

[mortal brook]

Viable is viable. Lowest form of success. 5 pwars wearing leaper jumping around like idiots can surely time a 15 viably if they play well at other tanking/rotational apsects. Good choice? No

[mystic warren]

Currently the wall is simming 140dps higher for me than reprisal, is there some sort of simtrap going on that I'm unaware of or is the wall genuinely a strong option now on ST?

[dawn canyon]

Considering im not good at pwar i should just start with the good choice

[lime urchin]

There are but a few very good a pwar

The rest of us are plebs with weak wrists

[dawn canyon]

My wrists are hardened by fury

[jagged pier]

apl isnt upto date fully yet

[strong forum]

Once everything is updated reprisal should be ahead by like 400dps if not more

[rough egret]

is Viscera considered a good one? better than OPC?

[blazing condor]

Viscera kinda poopy

[dawn canyon]

Opc is a damage choice but prolly better

[sick sentinel]

i use that neck with haste gem

[fierce nexus]

where is best place to make unity?

[rough egret]

Waist untill you have tier

[raven hatch]

Is avoidance worth it on 272 gear over 278?

[jagged pier]

All depends on if you can get 285 tier or not

[fierce nexus]

say i have 5 tier

whats bis Unity spot?

[dawn canyon]

can you get the 285 items from last 3

?

[fierce nexus]

i cannot

so chesT?

[dawn canyon]

thats what i would think but id want someone smart to confirm

[rough egret]

I would say head for socket, but if you hunt haste then chest/legs

[jagged pier]

if you cant get 285 pieces

its chest

[rough egret]

But im not smart warri just usinf same logic as on other tanks

[jagged pier]

if u can

its helm

[fierce nexus]

awesome ty

[craggy pilot]

Does tier glove give haste?

[jagged pier]

no

[fierce nexus]

crit/mast

[jagged pier]

but thats not the point

they have a low stat budget

[fierce nexus]

i hvae juicy haste/verse gloves with leech

[craggy pilot]

The point is str i guess

[jagged pier]

well no not just that

[craggy pilot]

Ye I'm running 272 glove non tiwr

Tier

And cape unity, cus I'm poor

[jagged pier]

chest tier is very heavy mastery and has a huge stat budget if u make it a leggo its gunna give a tone of haste compared to gloves

[craggy pilot]

Ye ok

[fierce nexus]

mastery is our worst right?

[craggy pilot]

Maybe i should recraft 🤔🤔

[rough egret]

We have 400of it from baner 🙂

[jagged pier]

well not our worst but not our best

[fierce nexus]

ah kk, i thoguht haste > verse => crit > mast

dunno how to sim defensively though lol

[jagged pier]

str >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haste >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vers = crit >=mastery

we dont care about third stat

[fierce nexus]

haha gotcha

[ionic fern]

People min-maxing secondary stats hard af while forgetting to press buttons correctly.

[mortal brook]

except for leech, right? as a thirdiary

3st stat in mwahi's heart

[jagged pier]

well leech is bis

but thats given

[ionic fern]

Agreed.

[mortal brook]

[ionic fern]

Bis Set

never forgetti.

[mortal brook]

wow

[stuck kite]

good old time

maybe s4 prot back on the top

[jagged pier]

https://tenor.com/view/no-bugs-bunny-nope-gif-14359850

[median tulip]

The thing with Stats is that for us Haste is so valuable that the rule is basically "equip highest Haste, take whatever other secondaries come with that"

Also Mastery is not a bad stat, but we get so much from Banner and Marileth that it's kinda surplus to requirements

[autumn pendant]

Wrong

Bis set was 3 DCs in season 2

[dull phoenix]

miss the ol' good days

[dull phoenix]

Does versa values more in that case?

[median tulip]

Just wear as much Haste as you can and don't overthink it

[cerulean tusk]

Haste over all. Versa to tank. Crit to spank. Still the rule, ya?

[primal rain]

should I remove execute from my bind

[lofty widget]

no

it's a very good button to press, big spender, generates rage and can reset SS

and big dmg ofc

[mellow bridge]

you should be casting a lot of executes

[sick sentinel]

whats something about mists 15 that i don't know that i probably should know some tip for pwar pov

[undone verge]

Cds on pull of first boss kill urh

Not really pwarrior but move last boss out of all the green shit

Over move boss

[sick sentinel]

REQUIRED? to go attempt to pick up adds? (final mists) or should dps bring them to me

[lofty widget]

they bring them to you

[craggy pilot]

what are the best setups number wise for Anduin?

2-4-12?

we have 2-3-11 in my guild, seems kinda weird scaling

[undone verge]

We usually overheal anduin

[sick sentinel]

Yeah we run 5 healers for andy lol

[urban portal]

It's heroic

Do whatever

[fluid stirrup]

One healer and a spriest to go down
Send a prot pal second so they can heal adds, easy

[echo egret]

An outburst shield slam gives 45 rage, right ?

[lofty widget]

yes

[rough egret]

im kind enjoying prot war, would be glad if i get some gear from the dungeons I did.. 😄

did 5 runs and 0 loot

its about the journey right

[cinder storm]

I made some changes in my rotation and I feel I'm keeping banner longer, my dps saw a decent increase with some rotation changes, like moving TC to a "I don't anything else to press button" rather than my main button

Consistently breaking 10k dps mark now

[rough egret]

can you tell me why my macro doesnt work on party frames?

#showtooltip charge
/cast [harm,nodead] Charge; [target=mouseover, exists][target=target, exists] !Intervene

[echo egret]

what is !Intervene supposed to do ?

[sick sentinel]

reprisal trigger and movement DRs the target

[cinder storm]

mists first boss

[lofty widget]

#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover, help] intervene; charge

here's what i use, shows intervene when hovering a friendly player, otherwise shows charge

[rough egret]

ty

why the hell im geting 2h drops when loot spec is set to prot

[echo egret]

I'd say chair-keyboard interface error

[rough egret]

I mean from the rares in ZM i got 2x 2h.. when loot spec is prot..

[echo egret]

oh the rares ignore your loot spec

[lofty widget]

those arent spec-based

[rough egret]

aha

[lofty widget]

so you can get staves too iirc

very useful

[uncut bronze]

Are classe based

Class

[rough egret]

hmm, maybe tmrw i will get shield 😄

if I dont drop any better till then

so far made it to +13 with 229