protection

[chilly brook]

But it's a huge CD for the group

[sick sentinel]

I was speaking about pugs though, where you can't always pick and choose.

[real orchid]

He says 4mins cd feels bad as a dps lol

And I agree. This is how I feel when I play my dh as a dps

[plush tendon]

Im not a fan of Ashen when I play Prot Paladin

[chilly brook]

Well ye but your healer can ignore healing while Ashen is out

It's literally an insane CD

[real orchid]

I mean, when you dps you want to see ur self pop off. Who cares about simpimg heals for ur healer

Lol

[floral pewter]

that's the ret class fantasy though

but yeah, Kyrian is way better in M+

[real orchid]

Ure not wrong lol

[chilly brook]

Ashen has its uses is all

And if you can get your tank to pull around it

It's actually disgusting

[real orchid]

But kyrian feels way more thematic than a vampire paladin😆

[floral pewter]

for sure

it's a super powerful cooldown

[chilly brook]

Uhhh Blood Elf Blood Knight?

[floral pewter]

I just like being able to blow up a prio target or Pride every 60s as Kyrian more

[chilly brook]

Yknow the ones who used to deal damage to themselves to deal damage to others

[real orchid]

Ashen is so good that’s it’s a curse for holy paladin

[plush tendon]

that would work if you could get some darker color on your wings n shit

[real orchid]

Elles cries on his stream everyday about wanting it nerfed so he doesn’t have to play it

[plush tendon]

cause you can wear the all black Tmog then pop out with golden wings???

looks so wrong

[chilly brook]

Idk man holy with ashen is dope

Like idk how you could complain about it

[plush tendon]

Elles hates it

can comfirm

The Holy Pal I play with hates it

[chilly brook]

You pop off huge in the damage category

[real orchid]

Bcuz as a healer it feels like ass to play

[chilly brook]

And it's super stronk as a healer

[real orchid]

As a healer doing dps, it’s amazing

[chilly brook]

Wat?

Our hpally loves it

[plush tendon]

Heres the thing; if Ellesmere can time a 25 on his 213 Kyrian Hpal, then its not 100% necessary. If you like Ashen great, if not dont play it

EZ

[sweet summit]

oh wow subjective opinions don't match what a shocker

[real orchid]

Yep

[floral pewter]

Divine Toll rounds out the hpal kit really well

[plush tendon]

Divine Toll is just fun

every min a fun button

[chilly brook]

Well the thing is divine toll is kinda weirdchamp for hpally outside of pvp

[sweet summit]

?

[plush tendon]

https://tenor.com/view/steve-harvey-shocked-terkejut-kaget-suprised-gif-12174657

[chilly brook]

You dont really have a throughput issue outside of pvp and it's most useful in pvp where a bomb of a heal like that is necessary

[plush tendon]

you can still use it for damage

and fill Holy Power up for a big SoTR slam

but why the hell are we even talking about Hpals XD

[real orchid]

“You don’t need” is kinda a lazy argument no? Just like how you don’t need the extra dps from NF as a prot war

[plush tendon]

aaaand we've come full circle

[real orchid]

Lol

Only reason I participate in these meaningless debate is cuz I’m waiting for my mom to get her 2nd shot😆

[plush tendon]

I think the point of all of this is play what you want and make decisions that make sense for you; need a Kyrian for your group, maybe you can do it! Already have one, nice!

[plush tendon]

Im watching MDI while at work on a slow friday

so yea, i got time

[fierce field]

you could run without covenants or legendaries too... i feel when people 'need' it's more about the min-max lifestyle 🙂

[plush tendon]

Alright, whos ready for the real challange; no Cov no lego 5 man KSM push

[real orchid]

What ilvl tho lol

[plush tendon]

Lowest I level to achieve KSM wins

: ^P

but youll probably have to make a fresh toon

cause you cant have that free stam from your Cov as thats cheating

[real orchid]

Yo min/max reverse prog seems like a huge time sink

[sick sentinel]

which healer works well for us in m+

paladin definitely not so far

[sweet summit]

paladin goes very well with us

[sick sentinel]

okay and maybe I'd prefer a healer which doesnt focus on only doing damage

[real orchid]

Lol no you want these. Trust me

Easier to train them to heal than to get pure healer to dps

[sick sentinel]

2k overall healer dps is good enough

paladins push that far ahead and caused a lot of wipes in my groups

[real orchid]

I used to play with a healer that would stand around when the group is full. And would only dps if I care to remind em

[chilly brook]

Sure except that ashen is league's better when you take into account what it allows you to do, yes your throughput is "lower" than Divine Toll but when you can enable huge pulls completely ignore having to heal for 30 seconds, nullify scary packs etc. Its way more worth

The difference between Ashen and DT is a lot different than the difference between Spear and Aftershock

[real orchid]

I don’t disagree with you at all on that. Venthir hpaly makes a huge difference over all other healer in prog keys.

[sick sentinel]

but if anything goes wrong...

it;s just needed to push to 26s and 27s but everyone acts like it doesnt sabotage lower 19ish keys

[chilly brook]

Real talk it's so hard for things to go wrong with it

The healing it provides is dummy

[real orchid]

I think maybe you underestimate how hard it is for them to heal outside of ashen

Maybe you’re lucky that your paly is a decent one and can manage. It’s not the case for many venthir paly I’ve seen

[clever bronze]

Do Prot warriors still use The Wall with BV/ITF/AM in raids?

[strong forum]

Reprisal is more dmg than wall

And better surv in basically all cases

[clever bronze]

Isn't that only if you can consistently use Charge and Intercept?

[strong forum]

Ofc

[clever bronze]

Can you do that in raids?

[strong forum]

Yes

[clever bronze]

Presumably, you Intercept your co-tank (assuming they're next to you) whenever you take boss aggro.

[chilly brook]

Our pally is a beast I guess?

[strong forum]

Or any melee dps

[chilly brook]

Actually both holy pallys I run with dont typically have issues

[clever bronze]

So if you're not taking The Wall for speedy Shield Walls and Avatar, do you take Bolster instead?

[floral pewter]

without Toll, it's much harder to catch up when the whole party takes damage

you can do it

but if people are getting hit by stuff, it sucks

[jagged pier]

if u run reprisal u get faster avatars and nearly the same amount of shield walls but far more blocked hits

[strong forum]

With reprisal you always play AM

[distant crystal]

kyrian hpal > venthyr hpal

unless you're giga coordinated and play/pull around ashen

[buoyant walrus]

Anyone know the exact working of Shield Block? Does it block ALL melee attacks including boss/mob abilities or is it just auto attacks. Asking because at times it seems like some of the damage still goes through shield block

[clever bronze]

Prot Warrior talent guide really needs updating, then.

[clever bronze]

Blocks reduce damage taken, not annihilate the damage.

[distant crystal]

all actual melee/ranged attacks yeah, not spells and such

[strong forum]

Block doesn't negate dmg, it lowers it.

Blocking depends on if the dmg is blockable or not

[distant crystal]

but yeah it's mitigation not avoidance

[strong forum]

Most melee attacks and abilities are blockable

[clever bronze]

https://i.imgur.com/rgNJC5X.png

[strong forum]

Anything that looks like a weapon swing

Is generally blockable

[lavish oracle]

(there are some notable exceptions, like the skeletons in DoS)

[buoyant walrus]

So the tooltip on Shield Block seems slightly misleading?

[chilly brook]

How so?

[chilly brook]

It isn't?

[strong forum]

No, you just assume that blocking means negating

You're just assuming wrong

[clever bronze]

Blocking has never been 100% mitigation in the entire history of WoW.

[lavish oracle]

It's still pretty much the most powerful active mitigation in the game

[clever bronze]

Shield Block simply says it lets you block all attacks. If you don't know how blocking works, and how it's different from Dodge and Parry, that is not the fault of Shield Block.

[distant crystal]

i guess if you're just going by the common english definition of block i could see how you'd think that means like, completely prevent

[buoyant walrus]

Yeah, that is what I assumed but I just wanted to ask this dumb question for years now haha. Had to scratch that itch

[real orchid]

what is the napkin math on block value versus damage reduce?

[strong forum]

I mean, you have the tooltip

In your character sheet

[distant crystal]

but yeah blocking is something all shield tanks have for mitigation, you have a %chance to reduce the dmg of the attack by a given %

[strong forum]

As anakin showed

[distant crystal]

shield block just makes that %chance 100%

[lavish oracle]

Block Reduction = Block Amount / (Block Amount + K)

[clever bronze]

Use in-game API. Block value works exactly like Armor.

[lavish oracle]

K is a constant that varies with the kind of content you're doing

I don't remember the current shadowlands values

[clever bronze]

C_PaperDollInfo.GetArmorEffectiveness(level, armor) I believe is how it's used.

[clever bronze]

I believe it was 2500.

[lavish oracle]

2455 for M+ or something

[clever bronze]

I can double check.

[lavish oracle]

yeah, might be 2500 overworld

[clever bronze]

The tooltip actually changes when you enter an instance?

[lavish oracle]

Yeah, raid, M+, and the overworld all have different k-values

each raid difficulty has a different one too, iirc

[sick sentinel]

@dawn orbit hey brother

[lavish oracle]

should change when you target an enemy in that instance

[clever bronze]

What the hell. That bites.

[strong forum]

K value exists to stop you from scaling infinitely as the expansion goes on

It gets increased every tier

So its roughly the same % every tier

[lofty widget]

what's the K stand for?

[clever bronze]

It's a constant.

Just a dummy variable like X.

[lavish oracle]

K-onstant 😛

[lofty widget]

Konstant

thx

[sick sentinel]

Hey, what's the go to talent on the 45 row for m+?

[clever bronze]

Probably Ravager.

[lofty widget]

ravager for AoE, ITF for ST

[strong forum]

If that's the ravager row, it's ravager

[clever bronze]

Oh, yeah, regarding the earlier question about why I said the talent page needed updates

[strong forum]

Itf for raid

Is it not?

[clever bronze]

The talents appear to be somewhat misleading based on what is currently the best talents and synergies.

[clever bronze]

That's what I thought, ITF for raids.

[sick sentinel]

@strong forum @sweet summit @dawn orbit

[strong forum]

Sup ibrec

[clever bronze]

For example, Unstoppable Force is never taken because ITF is great in raids and Ravager is great in dungeons, so AM's synergy with Unstoppable Force is irrelevant, but overstated as to how good it is.

[sweet summit]

whomstve summoned me

[jagged pier]

it has synergy yes

but as TC does nothing

that synergy doesnt really matter

[sick sentinel]

Thanks guys

[clever bronze]

That's a good point too.

I seem to recall the 30 row used to make DR more viable sounding, but maybe I was wrong, though. Someone had to tell me that BV was the best choice, always, regardless of Thunderlord.

[sweet summit]

DR is a tiny bit better on pure single target

[strong forum]

In 9.0, yes

DR tiny bit better in raw St

[clever bronze]

That must've been the "Updated for 9.0.5" I saw in the changelog.

[strong forum]

BSC is best on multitarget if you're playing reprisal

Otherwise BV

[clever bronze]

So BSC in M+ if running Reprisal?

[strong forum]

Yesh

[clever bronze]

In any raid encounters?

I'd imagine maybe Sun King?

[strong forum]

Slg and council

Sunking is a meme

Huntsman BSC is also aight

[clever bronze]

Is it because the ST DPS on Shade is more important?

[lavish oracle]

I think BSC is best on ST too, no?

[strong forum]

No

[lavish oracle]

appears to be the case in logs

[strong forum]

BSC is in fact, not best on ST

Only on 2-3+ targets

[clever bronze]

So why is Sun King a meme but not SLG and Council?

[strong forum]

Sunking is only add pad on a phase that doesn't actually work for making the fight easier

[clever bronze]

I genuinely don't understand.

[strong forum]

Slg add dmg is important

[clever bronze]

Ah.

[strong forum]

Council has alot of targets that are important

Adds on sunking aren't important

They're a useless pad phase

[clever bronze]

Maybe it's just my guild, then, because timing everything, not getting the adds killed quick enough in Heroic, is fucking us up.

Although IMHO it's because they're trying to burst heal Kael'thas before adds spawn that it's making shit crazy.

[strong forum]

On mythic you are maybe 30seconds in add phase

That's it

It's a 4-5min fight tops

[clever bronze]

We're not a hardcore guild. Casuals.

[strong forum]

You skip all of add phase

Yeah but I'm just saying

[signal plover]

Honestly in that specific scenario BSC would be more valuable

[clever bronze]

Anyway. Not that important. I'll keep BSC noted.

[clever bronze]

The scenario being a guild that needs more DPS on the adds?

[signal plover]

Yeh, provided you're consistently hitting at least a couple targets

[plush tendon]

TBH, your guild needs more heals pushing the boss on Sunking not more damage

[signal plover]

I'm ignoring a lot here to make that statement

[strong forum]

Yeah

[signal plover]

But if that's your reality then it may be an option

[chilly brook]

Damage on sun king is irrelevant outside of breaking the shield

[signal plover]

It's heroic

[chilly brook]

But that's mythic

[clever bronze]

We had a lot of healers on our last raid night and it was skipping add phases when things went right, but I feel like it prolonged the add phases and often times made it worse trying to manage Shade.

[chilly brook]

But the same thing applies in heroic

[signal plover]

Usually yeah

[plush tendon]

IDK, shade is kind of a joke

[strong forum]

Sunking is considered a meme cuz nothing really matters

[signal plover]

Yeh

Other than healer pump on mythic

[clever bronze]

Sun King was one of the hard ones for my guild ;_;

[strong forum]

So optimising for it is kind of irrelevant

When we did it on heroic we just had 6-7 healers

[clever bronze]

Out of how many people?

[strong forum]

30

[clever bronze]

Our groups are usually a bit smaller, in the 15-25 range.

[plush tendon]

I think we yoloed it

[strong forum]

Ye we also yolod

[chilly brook]

I think we 6 heal it

But it's been so long

[clever bronze]

I'll be sure to tell my guild that the strategy of just stacking as much healing as possible was on the right track, then.

[strong forum]

Just spec every person into heal, heal him to 45% then hero the dmg phase on him

[plush tendon]

Yea, you push that push through

[strong forum]

And he should be pretty much dead

[jagged pier]

just want to say on SLG u may as well run BV as you want adds to die at certain times and not push them execpt when is needed so u kind of end up just aoeing in bursts

[plush tendon]

if that means druids are convoke healing, Holy Priest GA, etc. you get out of p1 as fast as you can

[strong forum]

Yeah make your priests go holy

Disc is useless there

Hero dmg phase, and the fight should be done basically instantly

[clever bronze]

I think part of the issue with that, though, is that some of our best DPS are the ones who'd be speccing into healing, or bringing a healer, while some of the less skilled or geared or optimal (whatever the reason, I won't insult my guild) are the ones who'd be doing the DPSing.

[strong forum]

Don't bring too many healers

6-8

[plush tendon]

We put innervates on our two resto shamans, had two holy priest doing their thing, Druids Convoke healing,

[strong forum]

2 holy priests

[chilly brook]

I just slap revenge

[strong forum]

Druids heal convoke

[chilly brook]

[strong forum]

And the boss just flops

[plush tendon]

Ret Paladins can lay on hands and word of glory

Prot Paladins are also big heal pumpers

[clever bronze]

Our guild doesn't tell people what specs to play, not everyone flexes that much.

[chilly brook]

We doing second intermission now and I just want this to end @jagged pier

[strong forum]

Very very easy fight

[clever bronze]

So that'll be a bit tricky.

[strong forum]

Once your healers pump

[plush tendon]

Its also herioc so you dont need to do all of that

[strong forum]

Especially on heroic

[plush tendon]

but the priority should be to push healing

[strong forum]

You can have a fucking 15 minute fight

As long as you kill infusers

And youre Gucci

Our first kill on week1 was like 11 or 12 minutes

Cuz we had no fucking idea what we did

[jagged pier]

it over for me

[chilly brook]

Must be nice lol

[clever bronze]

I think you've seen it before, Nome, but I made an addon so I can write down talent stuff because I got tired of forgetting the uses for different talents that aren't listed in guides, the Discords are always ahead of Wowhead.

So can I just get some help writing down the use-cases for the 50 row?

This is what I've had written down for a while.
https://i.imgur.com/Zqx3WXn.png

[strong forum]

BSC multitarget

BV St

DR if you feel fancy on ST

[chilly brook]

It's pretty simple

AM with reprisal

Bolster if running wall

[clever bronze]

https://i.imgur.com/EZN7Z4G.png ?

[strong forum]

Am + wall in raid tho unless slg and sire

[chilly brook]

^

[signal plover]

You can AM with wall on most raid

Yeh

[strong forum]

Too many people playing wall + bolster in raid

It hurts my soul

Even in 9.0.5

So many people

[clever bronze]

Right, so the fact that some stuff can be used in different situations means there's reasons, so I want that written down.

[signal plover]

I would run AM + wall on SLG as well

[chilly brook]

Although, and I'm sure you've heard this from me before, I know you use notes because you play a ton of different characters but you'd probably get far more value from just sticking with one and learning it in and out

[clever bronze]

My understanding was: AM for more damage if defenses aren't needed, or when running with The Wall. Otherwise, use Bolster for defensives or in M+. HR is better than it was but it's mostly not used.

[strong forum]

Yes

However with reprisal you get enough block uptime

[chilly brook]

Would you? I've been liking AM+Reprisal on SLG

[strong forum]

So bolster is overkill

And AM nets more shieldwall usage

Thus is more defensive

[clever bronze]

Right, so the additions are to the leggos used.

[signal plover]

I would do AM+wall for Kaal tank (I did reprisal+am+rav+bsc for goliath/adds on kill)

[chilly brook]

Ah ye I dont tank kaal

At least not anymore

[clever bronze]

That's highly dependent on the spec. A lot of them have talent builds that don't really change much how you play, and others are so impactful that you'd be doing something as ridiculous as gimping your damage by dozens or more percentage points because you're taking ST builds into AoE.

[chilly brook]

[signal plover]

Me neither kek

[chilly brook]

Sure but I guess what I'm getting at is if you were to just play that spec you'd learn what the differences are fairly quickly and you'd be able to focus on other things besides learning the spec

[clever bronze]

Pretty much the most modification with Prot here is Intervening and Charging more if running Reprisal, and using Last Stand specifically for SB uptime if running Bolster (rather than just as a regular emergency CD). A single extra button or two on a long CD that doesn't impact your rotation is nbd.

[clever bronze]

I'm a decently competent player, so I can handle doing more than just learning the single easiest talent build.

[chilly brook]

Granted play the game the way you'd like to play it, also I'm not advocating for only using one build I change talents depending on content

[clever bronze]

And that's what my notes addon helps me keep track of. I hate talent set addons because they don't let you save singular rows, they save the whole thing, and some specs have a lot of situational mix-and-match.

[strong forum]

I tank kaal now in first intermission until Goliath is dead cuz I can live better than the dh

LS + SW + Block OP during heal immunity

[clever bronze]

This look good?
https://i.imgur.com/pifzgCU.png

[chilly brook]

We have DK

So he can clear his stacks

While we cheese

[haughty sleet]

Anyone run reprisal for m sire?

[clever bronze]

I'd imagine Reprisal would make things slightly tricky since people need to split into groups for clearing stacks, but doable as long as people know the Warrior will be moving the boss around just a smidge between clears.

[strong forum]

Na that's omega easy

Will be more tricky on p3, but should be very much manageable

P1 is a joke

P2 is annoying

P3 is the real fight

[strong forum]

My cotank just clears stacks on every crystallise, not like kaals auto attacks hurt

[signal plover]

Yeh but if u have a DK

[chilly brook]

Nah we cheese meteors

[signal plover]

DK tanks kaal

[chilly brook]

During intermission

[strong forum]

Yes

[chilly brook]

The person runs out and gets gripped in

[strong forum]

Same

Idk what that has to do with clearing stacks

[chilly brook]

So no one soaks and he can ignore the stun so he doesnt take a 110k hit

[strong forum]

Ye 3rd crystallise he has 0 stacks anyway

If he clears on 2nd

Or 2 at best

[clever bronze]

Cheesing meteors?

[chilly brook]

If you dont swap during intermission and dont clear you're gonna get 5 or 6 stacks

[plush tendon]

Wait, how does he have no stacks by 3rd crystalize?

I have 3 I clear

[strong forum]

As I've said, I take kaal in intermission until Goliath is dead

Meaning I get like 2-3 stacks, then we swap for add burn

[chilly brook]

Ye but DK can hold it the whole time

[plush tendon]

^

[chilly brook]

And clear stacks

[strong forum]

Other tank also gets 2-3 stacks

And everybody is omega fine

[chilly brook]

We did what you're talking about originally

[strong forum]

Idk sounds much easier to do with just swapping, since the dk will just flop during healing immune

[chilly brook]

Not really

[strong forum]

Unless your dps actually kill goliath proper fast

[chilly brook]

We do

We hold everything until 4th commando

And blow it all up

[strong forum]

We hold until 5, goliath gets solo burned

[chilly brook]

Its around 35-40% by that time

[strong forum]

Much easier

[chilly brook]

5th is usually out during the burn

[strong forum]

Goliath is dead before we start burning adds

Makes it so we burn all required commandos on a better timer

And no shitty overlap with wicked blades

Or crystallise

[chilly brook]

We dont get bad overlaps

[strong forum]

When we did goliath + commando burn, people just fucked up their blades, then some commandos didn't get finished

[chilly brook]

The crystalized actually isn't bad

[strong forum]

Was just awful

[chilly brook]

The meteor doesnt fall

On transition

[strong forum]

It does fall, but you grip out the target

So nobody soaks it

[chilly brook]

Nah it legit just doesnt fall

[strong forum]

Then you're doing a different fight

We lost a few people to meteor

[chilly brook]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[strong forum]

Because they accidentally stepped into it

[chilly brook]

Idk

[strong forum]

Also people forgetting to grip the target

[chilly brook]

We literally dont get a meteor when we phase out of intermission

[strong forum]

And he just dies

Nice bug you got there

Lucky you

[chilly brook]

Kinda is tbh

[strong forum]

Unless you're talking about 4th crystallise

Then no clue

3rd is 100% grip, 4th is skipped

[chilly brook]

It's the one that happens right as we dunk the last

So prolly 4th

[strong forum]

We dunk way before that

Like 20sec

[chilly brook]

I'm just there to get hit and revenge

I'm too smoll brain to know the numbers of everything

[strong forum]

Yeah it's fucking great

People calling raid tanking boring but then don't waste a single brain cell on the fight

Obv it's boring if you do as little as humanly possible

[chilly brook]

I'm engaged af during raid tbh

[signal plover]

My SLG add pick ups are crisp

[strong forum]

I have to do fucking mental gymnastics to just keep aggro on the first skirmishers + goliath, call raid CDs, call positioning + do my own rotation + call orb deposits

[signal plover]

Super fun with reprisal too

[chilly brook]

I've said fuck it

[strong forum]

I wish I was just a dps that does nothing but his rotation, is a mute and just blasts music cuz the job they have to do is just do dmg

That would be so much more fun

[chilly brook]

If fire mages cant be bothered to be in melee range of the boss and they lose their cauterize because they're face tanking a skirmisher that's on them

[signal plover]

Go get that skirmy

Dont be a coward

[strong forum]

Bro

My mage combust the goliath as I'm charging it

[chilly brook]

I'm not but they need to be stacked anyways

For upheavals

Or w/e

[strong forum]

And as soon as the skirmishers are up he presses shifting power during combust

You know how hard it is to keep aggro while you're charging around for the skirmishers

So fucking annoying

Very fucking annoying

[chilly brook]

Slapping everything for 22k is a great way to make sure they don't have aggro though

[strong forum]

While I'm charging to the goliath I have to throw ravager back to the skirmishers spawning, then leap into the skirmisher, taunt the goliath while flying

Griff,

[signal plover]

That's the fun of raid tanking tho

[chilly brook]

At least assuming they're stacked and the skirmishes dont jump out to BFE when you Aftershock

[strong forum]

I'm talking before ads are stacked

before they're stacked

[signal plover]

I abuse the shit outta leap taunt reset on SLG

[chilly brook]

Oh I know

[strong forum]

As they're spawning

[chilly brook]

That wasn't directed at you

[late surge]

Do you believe that prot warrior will become meta in high m+ in 9.1? Why is every top rio prot warrior tank playing different race. What's the go-to?

[strong forum]

That's not fun

That's aggravating

[chilly brook]

Your race doesnt matter

Play what you like

[strong forum]

Abusing leaping just for taunts is fucking dogshit design

[signal plover]

If ya say so

[plush tendon]

The fun part of raid tanking is picking out what Netflix show you are watching this week during prog

[strong forum]

Aggro should not be needed to fight for just because a fresh add has spawned and you don't have all your CDs ready

[signal plover]

I mean that's literally the point of aggro

[strong forum]

The point of aggro is dogshit

[signal plover]

Perhaps

But that's why threat exists at all

[strong forum]

Just because blizz doesnt like tanks, shouldn't mean that, even though I'm playing correctly, that my ret pally eats a melee attack just because I have to wait for the other 2 skirmishers to run in

Cuz if I don't do that, I lose aggro on all 4 targets

That's not good Design

[signal plover]

Ravager actually clutched that temporary threat in the stack for me

[strong forum]

Absolutely

[signal plover]

Especially on the funky P2 gathers

[strong forum]

But I have to use it way too early

To maximise dmg

So I have to use it for threat instead

So that I can taunt other targets than the skirmisher spawning inside us

God awful fucking fight

[signal plover]

Decent fight tbh

[strong forum]

It's trash

[signal plover]

Only fight where threat actually matters

It's the second worst in this raid sure

now

[strong forum]

It's the worst fight since zaqul

Prolly worse than zaqul

[signal plover]

Idk I wasn't rly ever frustrated with the fight post nerf

We only had half a week of pulls pre nerf tho

But two intermissions and targetted damage windows wasn't rly fun

Tanking it was pretty satisfying tho

[clever bronze]

Are tank conduits in practice anything different from what's on the conduit page?

Like, do you take Unnerving Focus if you're going with a Bolster build, and take something else otherwise?

I use Pelagos for Fury because I main as DPS, so I use Kleia for Prot. I remember last time I asked about this, I was recommended something like this?
https://i.imgur.com/PrW3osA.png

Info changes and sometimes it depends on who you ask, so that's why I like to double check stuff once in a while.

[signal plover]

That looks good to me

I'd go through the phial immunity endurance this week tho for m+

[clever bronze]

Not worried about it.

[signal plover]

Which means you'd switch piercing to the bottom left

And run unnerving at the top

[jagged pier]

u dont need the immunity

[clever bronze]

But since I have Reprisal, I'm not running Bolster, so should I move BV down where Unnerving is?

[strong forum]

Unnerving is still very very strong

Makes LS a good CD

[clever bronze]

Because Unnerving, according to the wowhead guide on Conduits, is not that strong.

[jagged pier]

unvering is probably our best conduit

stalwart our second

and PV oour third

imo

[signal plover]

Step 1, stop reading wowhead and read icy veins

[clever bronze]

That's similar to what I was told before.

[chilly brook]

Idk man it's a pretty trash fight tbh

Like it's a lot better now but still a shitty fight

[clever bronze]

I switched to Wowhead because I thought it was usually more up to date than Icy Veins. That was the case for a few of the alts I was playing on launch.

[signal plover]

I think it has a bad rep and is surrounded by 2 RLY good fights

[signal plover]

That is not the case for pwarr

[clever bronze]

Just Prot?

[halcyon shard]

You can see when the guide was last updated

on each page

[clever bronze]

I wish I could just subscribe to a guide to know when there are updates >_>

This isn't the first time I've been told to check the update tag, and it won't be the last time I forget it even exists.

[signal plover]

I use IV for fury/arms as well but afaik the write for wowhead and IV is the same legend for those specs

[sweet summit]

yep

[halcyon shard]

yes

But Wowhead Archimtiros > Icy veins Archimtiros

[signal plover]

https://c.tenor.com/Z75FJGtKDi8AAAAM/hmmm-thinking.gif

[clever bronze]

Kinda weird how IV actually has value for DPS because if you absolutely have to use IP to keep yourself alive in a rough encounter, you generally don't take so much that it just does nothing, like with tanking.

[signal plover]

Wot

[jagged pier]

you have to keep IP up?

wish someone would have told me

[signal plover]

I meant IV = Icy Veins

[clever bronze]

Fuck

[signal plover]

Not impending victory

[clever bronze]

I thought in my god damn heart I typed IP

I don't even know how I make these typos. I didn't even say IV in my mind.

[signal plover]

Tbh it doesn't make much more sense with IP in there

[clever bronze]

It's not extremely valuable, no -- it's shit.

And it won't keep you alive if the tanks die.

[signal plover]

IP for DPS isn't rly meant to let you tank a boss

[clever bronze]

More like it helps with trickling raid damage and floor mechanics when you're really on the knife's edge, so if you're able to damage something, it helps that tiny bit.

[signal plover]

It's just smoothing for raid spike dmg

[clever bronze]

I just wish it wasn't 60 rage as Fury. Better than when it was 80, but still...

[signal plover]

I don't think I've ever used IP as either DPS spec outside of pvp

[clever bronze]

OH, and something I forgot to mention.

[clever bronze]

Remember: casual guild, we don't walk into Heroics like they're Normals. Even progressing Normal took us a while.

[clever bronze]

The picture was of my Kleia soulbind, which I don't use as Fury. I use Pelagos. So I take Stalwart and Inspiring Presence.

[signal plover]

This shouldn't impact IP useage in any of the 3 specs tho

[clever bronze]

Healers die.

Or mechanics are not handled in the best way so a lot of damage gets taken.

[signal plover]

I don't rly understand your point

Oh cuz I said I haven't used IP on dps specs

Yeah I mean use IP to not die

[clever bronze]

Yeah, and it always feels bad. I realize it needs to be balanced, but consuming 60 rage and losing Enrage, and so losing 15% haste and 28% damage amp (my current Mastery) just feels bad.

As opposed to Arms just losing maybe a couple attacks.

[misty charm]

should i upgrade my crit vers neck or my haste mastery neck? 👀

[lofty widget]

haste mast

guessing its sin stained?

[misty charm]

yep

the other is Azure-Venom Choker

[lofty widget]

sin stained is bis, also unless theres a big ilvl difference saccing haste on neck/rings generally isnt worth it

since they dont have primary stat

[misty charm]

Good to know, thanks 🙂

which would mean Stitchflesh's Misplaced Signet and Death God's Signet are BiS rings i suppose?

[lofty widget]

hc/mythic denathrius ring also very strong

[misty charm]

i dont raid :<

[lofty widget]

then yeah, those two are great

[misty charm]

alright ty 🙂

[wet osprey]

u guys just look for haste/verse in gear?

[lofty widget]

ilvl>>haste>vers>crit=>mastery

[sturdy sable]

For tanking gearing can be decided by looking at what has more stats
More>less but if your looking for damage output you'll have to SIM yourself

[warped mulch]

I don’t really even look at the stats unless the ilvl is the same. Every stat is right for us.

[kindred pewter]

wtf is this spec

IMBA

lmfao

[lunar jackal]

Yeah idk what that is but thats not the spec being broken. That just dps doing very low damage lol

[tidal quarry]

Hymnal of the Path up in EU.

[stark flume]

Nah the dps doing ok dmg for their ilvl. Its a 7 NW so 2x javelin pad

[urban portal]

I tank heroic dungs for augment runes

And once I pulled the entire floor of necrotic wake onto the first boss

Then I realized my mage isn't gingi

[fresh belfry]

why do you pull trash in a heroic dungeon at all?

runes only at 100% count?=

[urban portal]

Pad

Heroic dungs are so boring

[fresh belfry]

flexing in a heroic dungeon

weirdest of flexes

[urban portal]

But sometimes I have some lecture in the background

And then make augment runes

[steep bone]

Hello frens, which eu ally realm was good, im kinda out of loop and coming back after two months, ravencrest or silvermoon is where ive toons

[jagged pier]

none its alliance

[steep bone]

of course they are

[lime urchin]

Wait, realms are good or bad?

I am not familiar with that level of min-maxing

[lofty widget]

it is if you want a mythic guild i suppose

more guilds on high pop servers

[fresh belfry]

silvermoon if youre more into pve and ravencrest if youre more into pvp

but

when it comes to pve youre gonna have a bad time on alliance either way

[lime urchin]

Really

That’s not true at all

A bad time

Lol

[fresh belfry]

uhm

[sweet summit]

he's right tho

[fresh belfry]

it is true though

[sweet summit]

alliance high end pve is kinda dead

[lofty widget]

theres just less people

[lime urchin]

Ok!

[lofty widget]

not like that equals a bad time idk

still plenty of groups imo

[fresh belfry]

plenty but still only a fraction of what you will find on horde

idk how you define plenty

[strong forum]

on horde there are 10.000 recruits, you find maybe 100 good players there

on alliance, you can also find 100 good players

but instead, you have like 150 recruits

[fresh belfry]

there is a single english speaking alliance guild in the entirety of top 100 guilds

[strong forum]

and you find 1 in those 150

maybe 2

basically 1 or 2 people out of 100 are good players

[lime urchin]

How many here go for top 100 guilds? I may underestimate the average player here then.

[strong forum]

and horde just offers 10-20x more players

this translates down to lower levels aswell

[fresh belfry]

^

[lime urchin]

Ok. My gurfeeling thought different but I am probably wrong then.

[strong forum]

the more people there are, the more likely you are to find decent players

thats just how it works

and if you wanna fill a 20 man mythic raid and say youre 7 or 8/10

you find like 5 recruits on alliance if youre lucky

we go through like 50 recruits a day on horde in my guild alone

right now

and all of them are shit

[fresh belfry]

I pug 3/10 or 6/10 mythic once or twice a week and every week I find at least one raid who is looking for a few players because they just transfered their guild over from alliance

[strong forum]

pugging artificer and hungering, how the fuck

[fresh belfry]

thats usually like 8/10 M guilds

who cannot proceed nyalotha because they wont find people on alliance

wait nathria its called

😄

[strong forum]

china

CN

[fresh belfry]

its not really pugging its guilds who lack 1-5 players

[strong forum]

thats us on monday but on SLG

24 man roster and we might have to pug 1 or 2 people

fucking awesome

[fresh belfry]

gotta have those resto shamans

[strong forum]

🤔

no

just lacking bodies

anything will do

[sweet summit]

ill come on my sub rogue and carry 👀

[strong forum]

if by sub rogue you mean MM hunter

sure

[sweet summit]

ow

[still pagoda]

[still pagoda]

[jagged pier]

[still pagoda]

I'm just casually doing 14's on my 195 holy pala and slowly getting back into the game to start raiding in 9.1 again

while people here start lacking people

[novel steeple]

My guild died on SLG. Half the raid team quit playing. Burnout

[steep bone]

Well from my experience I had harder times finding good PPL for m+ on horde than ally, horde was full of boosted kids

[still pagoda]

oh

hey

yeah

[steep bone]

Hai karton

[still pagoda]

that's the experience basically

you either see boosted kids

posers

or ragequiters

[steep bone]

And on ally it wasn't that many applies but they were at least dexent

[still pagoda]

better than nothing tbf

just takes being really picky

[steep bone]

U still playing karton?

[still pagoda]

quit back in December

just returned last week

now play holy pala

for now at least

[steep bone]

Come ally

[still pagoda]

will move my warri back onto Kazzak later

[steep bone]

I just came back today xD

legit i made a ticket with question if they could gimme back unused 29days of gametime, and they did lol

[still pagoda]

no, thanks. The guild i was in before getting replaced by "bis tank" on the tank spot(who left a month later. I could have saved my tank spot if i wasn't hasty enough to start trying to find a new guild, which ended up in a complete failure and burnout) remembers me warmly so I'm pretty stable on the possibilities of getting back into raiding now

[steep bone]

i see i see

[still pagoda]

so now I've just returned myself and detoxing on holy pala

[sand condor]

so

i did that things i said i saw andy do with HR and ITF

and well it feels really good to play to me

[blazing condor]

just watched rads do one with HR ITF too

seemed pretty good

[quaint glade]

Hello guys, could you please recommend a lego for m+s? atm im running with the thunderlord one

[blazing condor]

@quaint glade Reprisal

is the best one right now

[quaint glade]

thank you

[feral dock]

am i fine with hymnal of the path+ heart of a monstrosity as trinkets until i get something else like hakkar-trinket?

can i prio these over other 220 trinkets for example?

have both trinkets i mentioned in 194

[fresh belfry]

you want to priorize 194 trinkets over 220 trinkets?

[feral dock]

i read in this discord that hymnal e.g. is op even in 194

maybe i should rewritre my question.. which trinkets would be worth replacing those two worldquest items

[fresh belfry]

hymnal could be fine even though Ive never seen anyone actually using it and it also doesnt show up in wcl statistics which means there are fewer than 50 people using it out of 47000

[feral dock]

i mean not that i have much choice with 198 ilvl. just have musicsheet and darkmoon to exchange

[fresh belfry]

i cannot find the other trinket you mentioned in any database

[feral dock]

I play in german, so i dont have the correct names. Basically a chance to get healed if you get hit. Overheal creates an absorb

One of the worldquest items

[lofty widget]

think its abomination core, very meh

[feral dock]

So abomination could be replaced by any other higher trinket even with flat statincrease

?

Ran some +14 the last two days. I need to check how much it actually healed

[fresh belfry]

hymnal is good for its dps not for its defensive value btw

idk how much it heals effectively but if thats what youre looking for you can probably replace it with anything that has strength on it

[feral dock]

Well atm i play with darkmoon+abomination core. But not sure whether i'd actually need those.

I'll just run darkmoon+ hymnal for now and swap a bit around when i get other trinkets.

Had like 3k dps overall in my +14 mists today. Guess thats okay and with more offensive trinkets maybe even better

[steep bone]

I need some ideas of ultra wide UI setup, help please

[sand condor]

yeah i just did 2 18s to test it

and it feels so good

[plush tendon]

better then AM and Ravager though?

[lofty widget]

its a lot less rage and snap threat, also your active mitigation is very RNG dependant

[plush tendon]

Im also wondering, does HR actually give more SB uptime then Bolster?

[lofty widget]

according to my napkin math, yes

[plush tendon]

I love Napkin math

[lofty widget]

assuming 10 SS per minute, thats 20 sec per 2 minutes, where bolster iso nly 15

[inland raft]

More important would be does it give more effective uptime and id argue probably not

[lofty widget]

^

the main point against HR is the RNG aspect

[plush tendon]

going to give it a try right now for some lols

but ill prob stick with the AM and ravager cause dam!

[sand condor]

actually i think it does

what i';ve noticed now while running it a bit

is that i have to be slightly more careful on pulls to generate aggro

and have a taunt ready incase a mage/boomie goes boom.

and while it may generate less rage, it feels like i have more rage

which is strange

[craggy harness]

Feels like a length of pull thing

but that's a slightly ignorant gut feeling talking

[blazing condor]

Might be getting more rage because you focus on pressing shield slam more maybe

[lofty widget]

a few more SS isnt gonna make up for not playing ravager, but i think the extra 3 rage on SS feels better

ravagers rage gain tends to go a bit unnoticed, at least for me

[plush tendon]

Puts my SB at like 90+%

but I can feel not having the more frequent SW

[strong forum]

ravager is on a different row lul

its AM vs HR

ah its AM + Rav vs HR + ITF

now i see

"andys build"

ya idk if its so good to triple down on block uptime and have SW only every 3.5min instead of every 1-1.5min

and add the rage and dmg loss from ravager, andys build is nice for tyrannical bosses, but besides that idk how to feel about it

[plush tendon]

Im unsure how to feel on it; gives really reliable SB uptime if you cant charge in and out

but you lose extra Avatars and SWs

[flint tiger]

if we go triple endurance with Kleia, what would you guys pick as the third endurance conduit. BV or fueld by violence?

assuming BV

i'm assuming the 5% crit is better than giving it up for a potency conduit

[strong forum]

BV

and yes the 5% crit is better than a potency

[median tulip]

'cos our potency conduits are crap

[flint tiger]

kk thanks, I kinda thought so, but wasn't sure if i was severely underestimating them

Would you guys run with the Sire trinket or the anima field emitter?

thinking of playing safer defensive side, and figured starting pulls with shield is better

[signal plover]

What's your other trinket?

[manic schooner]

What slot should I craft reprisal for?

[flint tiger]

226 decanter winds

i guess i could run both 220s instead

[signal plover]

Legs in most cases

[obsidian stirrup]

Necro or kyrian for m+?

[strong forum]

kyrian

[obsidian stirrup]

Ty nome

[manic schooner]

Thanks!

[timber cloud]

Mythic sire trinket vs scale? Currently only have 207 scale but tryna farm 220

1 min cd vs 2min... damage feels good for threat on aoe pulls but sire more readily available

[flint tiger]

for some of the weekly routes

like on DOS this week, why does it suggest pulling 9 spriggans to the urn by the dragon before dealer?

[feral dock]

Really cant decide whether to keep nf or reroll to kyrian :/

I really like the extra mass interrupt. But now, coming into higher keys (+13-15) i feel like kyrian would be better for kiting and the phial. Especially this week

[lofty widget]

NF is more dmg, kyrian is more defensive, but i can tell you that it absolutely doesnt matter what covenant you are

you can succeed regardless

[pearl crown]

Hello guys ! I was wondering what covenant would be the best on sire denathrius mythic ?
Currently playing venthyr ( since I was dps ) but need to pass tank for the boss. Could you guys guide me on this please ?

[flint tiger]

they're both fine. covenant really only matters for waht your group needs if you have an M+ squad for coverage

[chilly brook]

I mean realistically Venthyr is probably best for mythic sire

Since the only thing that matters is p3

And it means you can literally go balls to the wall offensive without really worrying about defense in p3

[cloud totem]

where does our bis sheild drop from as far as mythic plus?

[subtle island]

Team Ven

[karmic plinth]

for M+ is there any time it's worth running the wall over reprisal? curiosity getting the better of me

[strong forum]

nop

[hollow bolt]

yeah i fooking love reprizel

[pearl crown]

Thank you for the answer !
I was considering goin Necrolord for the shield ( because I'd like to help out my heal who have trouble on this fight ). If I play venthyr tank could indicate what soulbind to take ? The logs are really diversified when I check the HPS on Sire. ( I have no idea how to check logs for good tanks tbh )

[sweet summit]

Draven defensively, theotar offensively

[flint tiger]

interesting, i would've thought nadija for offense

[sweet summit]

Extra pot duration from theo is poggers for damage

[plush tendon]

Dont use Draven

its bait

[chilly brook]

Dont ever look at HPS, high HPS for prot indicates something is severely wrong

HPS in general for tanks is a bad metric

[pearl crown]

i'm lost there x)
I really don't want any offense and being focus on my survival. Why is draven bait ?

And if you don't look at the HPS, what should i be looking at ?

( thanks for the answers guys ! it means a lot !)

[mighty valley]

The defensive powers sound good on paper but in practice just don't actually provide that much overall damage reduction

[pearl crown]

so which one should you go ?

[solid cairn]

you look at the amount of blocked hit, the overall dmg that you take

Also what you should have use deflect on

/where you could have use Spell reflect

[blazing condor]

can you get leggo-powers from normal/hc dungs?

[nimble ocean]

heroics, yes, norms i think but very low chance

[sweet summit]

yes to everything

the lower the difficulty the lower the drop chance tho

[blazing condor]

thanku

[tender flax]

where are the PROTS ???

[sweet summit]

epic

[edgy bane]

can i still block/parry during a bladestorm proc from signet?

[jagged pier]

Yes

[patent osprey]

no self healing 😦

[hot oxide]

Am I seeing Plka using heavy reprecussions?

Or is that prefered past mythic 20?

Like the vers and haste thing?

[ionic fern]

Use w/e you want.
HR can work for the increased block uptime. It just doubles down on it together with Reprisal.

Shouldn't be needed for the majority of things tho and you lose out on Avatars/SW's.

[sand condor]

A miracle happened, i got accepted and completed my first 19. They turned out to be a full group and were so impressed they asked me to be their m+ tank.

Life’s good

[ionic fern]

[sand condor]

Also. Yeah HR feels somehow way tankier than having bolster/AM. I’ve tried it out today in m+ and i feel like a bear tank. (Dwarf racial for necro does help)

[ionic fern]

I mean..AM it's not even a competition for the SB up-time. It's the Avatar/SW's.

[lofty widget]

Couldnt you make the same argument for bolster then, except you dont have the RNG element of when you get SB uptime as you do with HR?

[ionic fern]

The RNG from HR is somewhat mitigated by having more up-time in general from Reprisal.

[grand sierra]

Has anyone tested Prot on the PTR since the buff ?

[ionic fern]

Which buffs? 👀

[grand sierra]

The Vanguard buff ..

[ionic fern]

?

[sweet summit]

that's live now..?

[sweet summit]

they just moved it to another rank, no changes really

[ionic fern]

Pretty sure that's just being moved around in Ranks.

[lofty widget]

^from live

[amber herald]

looks like we got nerfed 🤷

[lofty widget]

darn

[sweet summit]

unlucky

[grand sierra]

So they just made a lower rank more powerful?

[sweet summit]

ye i guess

[lofty widget]

they just added the 10 % DR to the rank1 vanguard instead of rank2 as it is on live

so you get the effect faster when lvling

[grand sierra]

Ah .....

[amber herald]

ohh it's ranks

[lofty widget]

afaik there hasnt been any changes to warrior yet

except new leggos

[sweet summit]

yap

[grand sierra]

What buffs would you want? Damage or survivability?

[amber herald]

remove chaos brand from the game

[sweet summit]

ill take anything i can get

[amber herald]

[lofty widget]

both

[ionic fern]

QoL.
Make VR procc from Explosives and remove minimum range from HT/Leap.

[lavish oracle]

To be fair

VR from explosive was busted

[lofty widget]

i mean spriest still gets sanity from sniping them with sw death

which is arguably more OP

[lavish oracle]

Do monks get mark of the crane?

[lofty widget]

not sure

[unique shale]

saying good bye to port war

going pala main

it was fun to playing warrior for 3 exp

[spare viper]

how is korayn for prot

[unique shale]

bis

[lavish oracle]

Like...hpal?

I can't think of another reason to play pally atm

[unique shale]

hpala and port pala since they have better reputation on this website that most of people look at

https://mplus.subcreation.net/all-affixes.html

[lavish oracle]

I dunno, I feel like there's enough of a tank shortage that people basically just take anything

No trouble with pugging in the 17-19 range

[unique shale]

there is always tank shortage when it is hard week to push but when it is easy pugs are full of tanks or just waiting for their dh

[lavish oracle]

Might be different on EU, I suppose

[novel steeple]

played all tanks in SL except for bear so far. Never been turned down on any of them for a group

[lavish oracle]

I pugged some keys as Fury last week and it took forever for tank spot to fill

[novel steeple]

Tanks can be picky. it's one of the top reasons to be a tank

[unique shale]

idk it is 3 weeks that i timed no key on 18

cause i get no invite or when i do it is 1.3 rio group

i know i pushed mine key too and got right people but when everything was perfect they ruined for me

[hot oxide]

i don't even look at IO anymore, I just see if it's a key I want to do and do it. If I fail or don't time, it doesn't bother me anymore

i spent more time waiting for that perfect group when I could be making new contacts and friends

[unique shale]

tried both either way result was same

high or low rio people are still RNG to be good or not

[swift urchin]

Ney guys, im fury main, and want to learn prot to do some M+ or heroic raid when se have a lack of tank

But im new on tanking

How can i have aggro control?

Its Very hard tô keep the aggro in a pack with prot?

Is It*

[subtle island]

Give it a go in heroic dungeons see how it feels

[deep steppe]

More revenge usually fixes the problem. It’ll get easier the more you do it too so give it a few tries and it’ll come easier

[lavish oracle]

BSC + reprisal generally makes our threat pretty good, if you're not NF or Kyrian it can be difficult to hold threat against very burst heavy classes like fire mage but commanding shout helps with that

Heroic dungeons won't give you a good feel for threat because frankly very few people are playing their class well in a heroic, haha

[swift urchin]

hummmmm, thats a problem, cause i'm venthyr kkk

[swift urchin]

you mean, i can tab and use revenge?

for exemple, heroic throw on the first, taunt on second, revenge on a third one

and when revenge comes up again, tab for a target that a dont atacked yet

[swift urchin]

i usually do it on thorgast

and some low keys

cause heroicc its too easy

heroic i tank with fury kkk

[swift urchin]

noob questions, BSC is ?

[lavish oracle]

Best Served Cold, it's a talent we run with our reprisal legendary for M+

You typically want to open a pack with ravager -> avatar -> charge -> revenge

Since you want to get your reprisal proc

[swift urchin]

hummmm, understood

abd what legendary should i craft?

and*

was in doubt in two

[lavish oracle]

For M+, Reprisal hands down

For raid, both Reprisal and the Wall are good

You can make the argument that the Wall is better in raid because it gives more consistent value that's not dependent on fight design

[swift urchin]

understood

thanks guys

[solemn magnet]

Revenge also doesn't need a target. No need to tab target

[floral pewter]

can someone give me tips on Soulcrusher timing on Mueh'zala? The DBM timer doesn't seem to be accurate and I usually end up mistiming spell reflect

[chilly brook]

weird

timer is accurate for me

it is a half second cast

if you can react to that

[lavish oracle]

Usually happens a little bit after the pull and right after master of death

If you just reflect when master of death finishes you should be able to catch one

The first one goes out after he throws the debuff that makes people drop an aoe, forget what it's called

[undone sun]

<@&257983573498265600> spamming it in every channel to

👍

[lime trail]

Can someone please give me an ELI5 post on what exactly weapon damage is or why it's a bad idea to intentionally fish for inevitables on Sire

[hot oxide]

Just did a mythic with proper dps, Jesus Christ, it was fun and took 18ish mins. +3 that key.

[floral pewter]

Thanks, that helps

[light sorrel]

Hi Prot friends. Currently a Paladin Tank but had some questions. I love the damage Venthyr Prot Paladin brings but I find the damage rotation incredibly boring. Is Prot Warrior rotation considered more interesting?

As a second question, does anyone know if Prot Warrior Ravager triggers Signet of the Tormented King or is it just Avatar?

[lavish oracle]

Ravager does not trigger signet

I'm not sure what you'd consider an interesting rotation so not sure how to help there

[light sorrel]

Paladin rotation is just pressing any button that comes off CD, very little thinking. Coming from playing DPS, I'd like my tank to have impactful choices to make or maybe even choose between pushing DPS or having more survivability.

[lavish oracle]

Oh, yeah, our main damage button costs a significant portion of rage so by it's nature you're going to have to choose between survivability and damage

It's not like complicated or anything, though

[light sorrel]

Do you find yourself actively playing your class? I like Blood DK since you have moments you want to hold Death Strike for a big hit. It makes me pay attention a little bit at least.

[jagged pier]

i would say prot warrior is the least brain dead tank to play and even more interesting if u run reprisal

[light sorrel]

That's good to know. My other main concern is the damage output from going from Paladin to Warrior. Is it still possible for me to push damage aggressively or do we fall over if we do that?

[lavish oracle]

Warrior is very sturdy even with just shield block up

[light sorrel]

Seeing Strength as your 5th best stat worries me haha

[lavish oracle]

so as long as you're saving enough rage to keep that up you're fine

[light sorrel]

Fair enough.

[lavish oracle]

mmmm, I don't know if I agree with Str as 5th best stat

maybe point for point but there's a reason ilvl is our best stat

[light sorrel]

I'm just reading the Icy Veins guide atm

[lavish oracle]

I'd assume it's talking about like...1:1 but I can't see into the mind of the author

[light sorrel]

I'd probably stack strength anyways since doing damage is very important to me as a tank.

Or prio strength, rather

[lavish oracle]

Well, we scale fairly well with strength because of Vanguard

[light sorrel]

Right

[lavish oracle]

It's generally why you want to prio ilvl over any particular stat until you're at a point where you can pick an choose between equal ilvl pieces

[light sorrel]

Would it be reasonable to stack haste/crit to push additional damage? Considering going Necrolord to make my DK friends happy haha.

Right, I was surprised strength wasn't higher since that is the case for every other spec/class.

[lavish oracle]

haste/crit are our best damage stats, afaik, yes

Necro would likely be a personal damage loss and it can be fiddly to get good value out of it

but if you can consistently buff your friends during your CDs it's generally an overall damage gain

[jagged pier]

we can stilll pump

[light sorrel]

It'd be more for the raid, for sure.

Does Venthyr Warrior put out good damage by any chance?

Ideally I'd want good ST

[jagged pier]

not really

[lavish oracle]

ST yes

[jagged pier]

its okay for ST

[lavish oracle]

I think Night Fae is still better

for damage

[jagged pier]

but ull find in raid at least kyrian and NF tend to do more

as 100-80% and 20-0% are the fastest parts of the boss fight

[light sorrel]

That's unfortunate

Venthyr Prot sounds cool thematically

Warrior and Druid are the only classes I don't have at 60 so I'll finish up my Warrior tomorrow. Are there any talent/legendary recommendations for purely DPS purposes?

[jagged pier]

no not really

just aoe or ST

[light sorrel]

Ah okay, I see. Do we ever find more damage running Signet over the charge/intervene legendary?

[jagged pier]

no not really and u loose a lot of defesive value taking that leggo

its not a good leggo

if your gunna meme in a key u take seimic it does more damage

[light sorrel]

Haha, in keys I actually try. In raids, I want to zug zug with the DPS too :P

I appreciate the help though. I'll do some reading and think about it!

[jagged pier]

you definatly do not take signet in raid

[light sorrel]

Gotcha, I'll wear the intervene one :)

[jagged pier]

and dont sim because the intervene one doesnt work correctly in sims

so it will always show it as a dps lose

even against the wall and stuff

[light sorrel]

Oh, okay, good to know!

[jagged pier]

TLDR on signet 4 seconds of reck or 4 secs of bladestorm every 45 secs or every 1:30 mins dpesnding on talents is really not every good

[lavish oracle]

It seems to perform pretty well in heroic logs

understandably basically no one is using it in mythic because it does nothing defensively

[light sorrel]

^

Surprised there aren't more Venthyr Warriors for at least Dauntless Duelist (3% more damage on ST)

[lavish oracle]

I mean it does good pure ST damage but it's got basically negative defensive utility and performs poorly in AoE

might as well go NF and get comparable ST, the best multitarget damage, and good defensive utility

[urban portal]

the aoe is so bad

you play it once

and then you wanna smash your face in

[fresh belfry]

It’s not even good on singletaret unless the rest of your raid is poop, half of them dies before 20% and no one can play their openers

But then you change the covenant again for prot and are immediately sad you don’t have it anymore for arms

Bad system is bad

[sand condor]

It would be amazing if you could just

Swap between them

After gaining max renown

[fresh belfry]

I have 40 renown on all 4 but you can’t even swap more often than once a week it’s a tragedy

[sand condor]

Id lpve to swap to necrolord for nec dungeons

[marble cipher]

^ that's why they, sadly, don't allow insta swaps.
I would however want them to introduce a pve and pvp covenant tbf. Just one that swaps when in arena/bg.
Make them both have a double week lockout for all I care, but let us pick one for pve and one for pvp. Sure, it doesn't go with 'the story' but feck that....

[tame jasper]

"You suck" many of my guildmates (not all having there KSM already) say. Yeah maybe, but I'm realm horde number one tank now and I'm happy about it. Prot warrior 4 life and since vanilla 🙂

[blazing condor]

Grats! 🙂

[tame jasper]

Thank you @blazing condor 🙂

[ember token]

That covenant is not worth it, even for that dung buff. 😦

[still pagoda]

if they say that you suck, it's their own problem unless you really suck and die on every single pull, but that's already on your hands, not your class

[tame jasper]

Sure it was just the known prot-warriors-are-bad-meta-thinking-flaming 😄

[buoyant walrus]

Love prot warrior exactly because it was/is off meta in SL

[sand condor]

prot warriors are much better than most tanks

if they are played well

[lime urchin]

But if you compare all tanks being played well protection warrior misses out quite a bit. Luckily only a few people are able to play well, so it doesn’t matter!

[sand condor]

do we really miss out?

i dont think we're worse than prot pallies, bdks and brews

[turbid gazelle]

Id only agree on bdks

[lime urchin]

No we don’t

And it looks like le meta is slowly shifting towards protection warriors and dudu’s!

Both mah favorite tonks!

[chilly brook]

This is objectively false

Venthyr has good representation in the single target fights and honestly the only reason I'd say you see it behind Kyrian or NF is because often the best players are in one of those covenants for other reasons

[fresh belfry]

there is only a single fight in the entire raid on which venthyr pulls statistically ahead. including looking only at boss dps. i am not sure which objective evidence you are using that differs from mine. you could argue that hungering destroyer is the only "real" singletarget encounter and that therefore all other bosses dont support the ST argument. but then again what is it good if the only boss venthyr outperforms the others on is the 3rd boss in the raid?

[sweet summit]

Its better on paper

But im not sure how well it transelates to real encounters

[opal python]

are belf prots not good anymore? or is there not enough purging required? i just don't see too many prot warrs going belf anymore (recently returning from bfa) or maybe its just me?

mainly speaking for m+, cuz i remember they were one of the best races to roll as prot for m+

[still pagoda]

this man doesn't know...

basically, it usually doesn't matter what race you roll unless you're going for the highest keys/WF at the point where it becomes a clutch

before that, whatever you fancy