protection

[ember marsh]

is that its so oversaturated

[strong forum]

its actual insanity

[ember marsh]

also

playing havoc is arthirits inducing

with all the haste you get from meta form and eye beam

[strong forum]

well

pwar is faster

cuz you have like 3 off GCD buttons

that you press regularily

and you prio haste

[ember marsh]

you get like 70% haste or something

[strong forum]

ye but its just 2 buttons

[undone jacinth]

unless its significantly different from bfa nothing is faster than havoc

[strong forum]

pwar is like 15

havoc is 2 buttons with alot of haste every now and again

pwar is a good 10 buttons, up to 35 with decent constant haste with 3 off GCD buttons

[ember marsh]

looking at what tank to try i have to look at the dps cause ur not gonna want to be tank spec for everything

and havoc is not appealing to me based on my experience with it in SL already

[strong forum]

i am

[ember marsh]

got it to 207 ilvl

[undone jacinth]

https://imgur.com/a/Q8bcLiI

[ember marsh]

yea

wait thats not up to date i dont think

hold on

i swaear i looked at it yesterday

[undone jacinth]

I just got a random one from start of expac

might have been a dodge link

[ember marsh]

this is current

[strong forum]

1 action more from havoc

big

[ember marsh]

🐒

does prot pally really mash that much wtf

[strong forum]

i find havoc to be one of the slowest specs to play imo

[ember marsh]

it depends which talent spec u are

[strong forum]

even with 120% haste

[ember marsh]

if ur demon blades yeah it feels more slow

[undone jacinth]

the difference is even if your apm is about the same

as havoc youre literally destroying your keyboard

[ember marsh]

yea

[undone jacinth]

because u dont wanna miss a global

[strong forum]

its just 2 buttons man

2

[ember marsh]

it is arthirits inducing

[undone jacinth]

yes but you want that global to trigger

INSTANTLY

so you're mashing

if you miss something on warr who cares

[strong forum]

idk its tilting to play havoc

feels omega slow

to me

[undone jacinth]

I wasnt a fan until I played feral this expac

and wish I was playing havoc again

[ember marsh]

feral bloodtalons is just..

why..

i enjoyed my feral this xpac until i started to hate playing around bloodtalons

it was aids

[undone jacinth]

the whole spec is just aids

cleave fights are a joke

[ember marsh]

soda was even running feral frenzy for pve cause he refused to play bloodtalons

[strong forum]

isnt bloodtalons feral literally fury but orange

[undone jacinth]

convoke is the only redeeming quality

[ember marsh]

no

[undone jacinth]

fury?!

[strong forum]

3 buttons X 3 buttons X ?

[undone jacinth]

lmao

[ember marsh]

bloodtalons you have to use 3 different combo point generators within like 3 seconds and then you get 2 bonus ferocious bite or rip dmg

[undone jacinth]

god I wish it was fury

[ember marsh]

which is clunky

[strong forum]

sounds exactly like fury to me

[ember marsh]

based on how you want to do your rotation

[strong forum]

keep in mind i hate fury rotation with a passion

and the entire spec

[ember marsh]

because you don't really want to reapply rake if it was empowered

[undone jacinth]

fury youre just spamming whatever to get your rage

[ember marsh]

so you end up using thrash or something

which is terrible

i hope 9.1 makes bt more fluid

[strong forum]

idk i overcomplicate fury when i played it for like 3hrs

ww 12 ww 12 ww 12

[undone jacinth]

yeah its like fury but if you lose damage by casting your abilities

[strong forum]

actually struggle with that rotation

cuz its too simple

[ember marsh]

also feral thers a lot of times where you dont even cast anything and you're just auto attacking

[undone jacinth]

well not any more there isnt

because of fucking owl weaving

[ember marsh]

owl weaving isnt even worth it

[undone jacinth]

it is unfortunately

[strong forum]

ww 12 ww 12, i often forget to WW cuz the button itself is too shit, or i press WW too often cuz the other buttons are too shit

[ember marsh]

its such a slight dps increase

its not worth it

for your sanity

[undone jacinth]

its actually a pretty decent increase

[ember marsh]

its about 100-150 dps increase

i'd take that hit for my sanity

[undone jacinth]

that is a lot bro

yeah I feel the same way but if you wanna get that parse life

no choice

[ember marsh]

6900 vs 7000 on a sim where everything is perfect

the margin is gonna be much lower in reality

[undone jacinth]

well its actually the opposite

if the thing is reliable to execute then it would make up for more of the overall

rather than less

its the unreliable parts that would be less in reality

like IQD for example

[ember marsh]

i was also thinking about trying blood dk but i do not enjoy unholy

even though its strong

[strong forum]

bdk ♿

[undone jacinth]

frost is actually pretty decent now

[strong forum]

enjoy running at mobs at regular walking speed

but all the time

[undone jacinth]

but you will get memed on for playing it

[ember marsh]

frost is still much worse

the only fight its decent on for raiding is like

generals and sun king

even when u have 2 boss cleave a lot in huntsman, unholy still outperforms

even after buff

[undone jacinth]

unholy is unholy

just saying its playable

[ember marsh]

its strong but man

theres literally nothing off the gcd

and it takes like 7 gcds to actually start playing

[undone jacinth]

I hate it

my dk is dead

[ember marsh]

if im not able to play BoS i dont want it

and at least the bdk legendary is usable by all 3 specs

not optimal for sure but its usable

https://i.imgur.com/EinkJ91.png

bear druid with that barksin legendary is so tanky

[undone jacinth]

it is but

[strong forum]

i wouldnt look at it more than a glimpse

[undone jacinth]

im struggling to stay awake

playing bear

[ember marsh]

hey at least they made incarnation a good talent

so it feels cool

[undone jacinth]

3min cds dont feel cool

they feel sad af

[ember marsh]

i think they do

its like an oh yes its off cd time to go ham

but yeah 2 min cds are cooler

[ebon hound]

Bear feels good for 30s every 3 minutes, that's about it

[undone jacinth]

its amazing when you use it dont get me wrong

but nothing feels worse than being like welp

what the fuck do i do for 3min

[ember marsh]

thrash thrash thrash thrash

[undone jacinth]

press barkskin and wait

[strong forum]

the TMI is an incredibly vague metric that is in a very secluded environment

[ember marsh]

oh for sure

[strong forum]

but barkskin bear is very tanky indeed

[ember marsh]

but its definitely somehwat accurate

[undone jacinth]

I would never use tmi haha

[strong forum]

yeah

[ember marsh]

the numbers dont mean much

but the "ranking"

is somewhat accuratre

bdk and guardian are amongst the tankiest right now

and prot and brew being near the bottom, granted brew is mostly a skill thing

[strong forum]

in raid maybe

[ember marsh]

yeah

for m+ u just roll ur keyboard

[strong forum]

but bdk in m+ flops real quick

[ember marsh]

i like brew fantasy but i do not like rushing jade wind

it feels lazy of an ability

but its required

for mostly everything

[jolly thistle]

If you look at tmi then lower is better tho

[ember marsh]

not necessarily

bdk and guardian are typically able to withstand the most dmg before crumbling

and that reflects that

[jolly thistle]

It’s the amount of burst dmg taken over a set amount of time

[strong forum]

like saying BDK is among the tankiest is a flat out wrong thing to say, its good in raid with tank swaps and alot of externals, in m+ bdk is by design the squishiest

[ember marsh]

bdk is insane especialyl as venthyr with general draven

since will of necropolis and general draven's thing both stack

for insane dr

[undone jacinth]

tankiest in this context is meant as ability to stay alive right

not least damage taken

[jolly thistle]

High tmi isn’t a good thing

[strong forum]

BDK is the least smooth tank

[ember marsh]

yeah they are the least smooth fo rsure

but they have insane healing

i learned as plaaying healer for a bit

healing a bdk tank is the most stressful until you're used to it

cause their health goes all over the place

[strong forum]

they have insane healing because they take alot of damage, that they then heal back up

[gaunt dawn]

"insane healing" is a counter to their damage intake

if they didnt have that, a mage would legit be better

[ember marsh]

yep

[gaunt dawn]

so.........

cant really be used as a basis

warrior has insane block 😮

[ember marsh]

what makes bear druid not smooth?

[gaunt dawn]

druids cant block

[ember marsh]

i thought they were pretty smooth

[gaunt dawn]

down with druids!

[ember marsh]

they are like the easiest to heal

[strong forum]

druid has infrequent "selfhealing"

cuz its on a large CD

they mitigate dmg

[undone jacinth]

so the index is saying that prot palas have the 2nd most smooth damage intake?

[strong forum]

then sometimes heal

[gaunt dawn]

druid has high levels of mitigation and higher health pool

[undone jacinth]

that cant be right..

[ember marsh]

that doesnt feel accurate

yea

[gaunt dawn]

so dunks the druid take

isnt as big of a %

[undone jacinth]

if the index was meant to be showing amount of damage able to sustain through before dying

then it makes sense

[gaunt dawn]

but it does mean that druids are mana sponges more so than others

[undone jacinth]

anything else feels wrong

[gaunt dawn]

not as much as monks

but monk damage intake is incredibly smooth (theoritically)

[undone jacinth]

monk damage in take this expac is insane

[gaunt dawn]

but also means they slurp up mana

wdym?

[undone jacinth]

like they get destroyed

[gaunt dawn]

i love a hunter having more armor than my monk

🙂

[undone jacinth]

stagger has been terrible

[gaunt dawn]

its not that stagger is terrible

its the swing values are so insanely high

without any armor to mitigate it

its just all in the pool

[undone jacinth]

that index right there is the same order I would define who can live the longest with sustained damage in take

but idk if thats just coincidence

[gaunt dawn]

but when looking any tanking metric

[undone jacinth]

I never thought TMI was reliable

[gaunt dawn]

you cant look at any in isolation

theyre always to be used blended with others

[ember marsh]

bdk arguably is the best for raiding assuming you dont need shout mystic touch or chaos brand

[gaunt dawn]

its like looking at 5min ST patchwerk sims

and thinking it relates to everything

[ember marsh]

because of amz

at least for this tier anyways

amz is so good for like almost every fgight

[gaunt dawn]

BDK when geared*

big emphasis

which means pretty shit for early prog

[ember marsh]

well yeah and also the fact havoc is pretty bad for most fights

means you want a vdh

[gaunt dawn]

mm, not really

[ember marsh]

i mean

[gaunt dawn]

VDH is just big

[ember marsh]

in comparison to other dps

[gaunt dawn]

biggest of them all

[ember marsh]

why would u want to take a havoc when u can just take a boomie

it literally does everything better

mm too

[strong forum]

because we're still playing a game afterall

[gaunt dawn]

id take a havoc over a rogue

for sure

[strong forum]

yeah rogues fucking blow ass

[ember marsh]

outlaw rogue is pretty sick in some of the fights

[gaunt dawn]

even if i had chaos brand covered

[ember marsh]

like

generals, sun king, denathrius

outlaw is pretty good

[gaunt dawn]

on those same fights

havoc is better

😮

[ember marsh]

outlaw will outperform if equal skill

and gear

[gaunt dawn]

big doubt

[gaunt dawn]

i love data with no surrounding info

🙂

[undone jacinth]

yea lmao

was thinking that

[gaunt dawn]

let me whip up something else

[undone jacinth]

only 20 havocs have killed denathrius and the top havoc parse is almost identical to the top outlaw parse... don't think it's worth arguing about

[undone jacinth]

lmfao

[sweet summit]

[gaunt dawn]

as you can see

[astral crystal]

havoc rules

[gaunt dawn]

from this graph

havoc is insane

😮

[jolly thistle]

[undone jacinth]

why can't you react to posts wtf

[sweet summit]

mavoc is doing a bit better than uauaw

[ember marsh]

95th percentile mythic sun king, denathrius and generals

[sweet summit]

from what i can see

[strong forum]

sunking is a meme

[gaunt dawn]

sunking

lmfao

[strong forum]

so you can safely ignore parses

[gaunt dawn]

let me show the logs

of people who do the fight wrong

woooooo

[strong forum]

slg and dena are also inaccurate as very few people have done the fight still id say

[undone jacinth]

39 havocs have killed SLG and 20 have killed denny, its not an argument worth having

[ember marsh]

does udk benefit from bshout

[strong forum]

yes

[ember marsh]

i dont know how their dmg scales

ok

[gaunt dawn]

melee = attack power

[undone jacinth]

it just gives AP and thats the modifier for spells

[gaunt dawn]

casters = intellect

[strong forum]

uhdk benefits both off of mystic touch and chaos brand too iirc

[ember marsh]

yeah

same with enhance

[strong forum]

@undone jacinth

https://i.imgur.com/ODzAqog.png

i heard feral sucks on SLG

yo reroll

[undone jacinth]

bruh I got a world rank 90~ parse the other day and got green

I was like

am I meant to be sad

or happy

[strong forum]

i got rank 3 hungering a few weeks back

97

[jolly thistle]

Never be sad

[undone jacinth]

good advice

[sweet summit]

got rank 3 sludge
95

[undone jacinth]

hunter in my guild was like man its so hard to parse I have to compete against 200k hunter parses or whatever

I was like bro for that kill there are literally 150 feral logs

[strong forum]

our mage is doing fine

[undone jacinth]

if I get asked to do mechanics what do you think happens to my parse lmao

[strong forum]

https://i.imgur.com/K7J20Cv.png

this was our mage on huntsman

it was #10 at the time

ez fucking clap

[undone jacinth]

blasting

[strong forum]

wait no

where did he get #10 on

no it was this, but since this was early in the week

it dropped to 15

[undone jacinth]

probably 10 pre upload ye

our warlock got a rank 100 on xymox and was saying he had a bad pull

[ember marsh]

wait

an assasination rogue has cleared mythic denathrius

[undone jacinth]

I was like yea you know other guilds make ranged take their seeds and not their fucking feral lmao

[strong forum]

well druid is among the best to do it

[undone jacinth]

yea druid is insane dont get me wrong

but as melee its major sad

[strong forum]

hint

|| dont be a feral in raid ||

[undone jacinth]

dont say it

god dang it

[strong forum]

[ember marsh]

feral is like top 4 dps overall isnt it

[undone jacinth]

if I could turn back time

[ember marsh]

like it suffers hard in some fights like slg

[undone jacinth]

it is but its also a nightmare

[ember marsh]

yeah

i liked my feral but hated bt

wont return to it until they change that or bt becomes the weaker choice for talent

[undone jacinth]

I was gonna switch to warr but I made it a necrolord and didn't really think through the implications for dps..

[ember marsh]

necrolord warr

:omegalul:

[gaunt dawn]

Feral, Ret, Enhance

all preform really well

but its melee

[undone jacinth]

+1

[ember marsh]

enhance is definitely slept on

[undone jacinth]

its not though

does good dmg

[gaunt dawn]

Its not slept on

[undone jacinth]

but just dies and fills a melee spot

[jolly thistle]

We got all 3 in the raid

[gaunt dawn]

it doesnt bring AMZ, AMS, Grip, multi grips, and deaths advance + damage

Shout + damage

[ember marsh]

theres almost no reason to take an enahnce over udk

[gaunt dawn]

Chaos brand + damage

[ember marsh]

yea

[gaunt dawn]

Mystic Touch + damage

its just damage

[ember marsh]

the only thing its really really good for is if u have arms warrior as a meta spec

or demon blade dh

[undone jacinth]

its my problem with feral, even if I see myself competing with locks on the meter I still feel like I'm just bringing nothing to the raid and shouldnt be there

[ember marsh]

wft makes their dps skyrocket

by like 6-7%

[strong forum]

you mean, AMZ, AMS, Grip, multi grips, and deaths advance + damage

[gaunt dawn]

yea thats what i wrote

[ember marsh]

and being able to ignore some mechanics of raids fully with their inabliity to go below 100% movespeed

[gaunt dawn]

🙃

[strong forum]

DKs are so insane this tier its actually annoying

i hate it

[ember marsh]

but blizzard only looks at the dps : - )

[gaunt dawn]

the dps is fine

even if those specs did more dps

[strong forum]

having multiple DKs makes it so much easier to ignore half of fight mechanics

[gaunt dawn]

you wouldnt bring em

[ember marsh]

well tahts my point

the fact they do weaker dmg but provide such insane utility that it cant be quantifiable on a chart

[strong forum]

we're bringing sub-par DKs because they bring what they bring... its annoying

[ember marsh]

means blizzard wont balance it or the stuff around it

[strong forum]

both of our havocs are rerolling DKs

cuz we cant get any DKs

and wanna get rid of our current ones

[gaunt dawn]

one of our havocs is hunter this tier

the other still havoc cos we didnt have WW so i'm brew

[strong forum]

we couldve prevented one of the havocs rolling havoc cuz we said in bfa yo we need 1 dh, so level that

but cotank only decided 1week into SL that hes playing VDH

the other havoc came in as backup in case the other would quit early

[smoky wave]

Really want to play my dk alt for dps, but no other bugger will tank 😅

[undone jacinth]

how far are you in prog?

[strong forum]

we?

[undone jacinth]

iosef

but you can say too if you want to share

[gaunt dawn]

lets all say 😮

[smoky wave]

Oh we're all plebs. Only just cleared normal

[strong forum]

now i remember why mikanikos is so trash

youre forced to play 3e 1f if you want the haste

[undone jacinth]

isn't the haste competing with the stun?

[strong forum]

yeah but why would you want that stun

when you can have 15% haste

[undone jacinth]

because mikanikos should only ever be used for meme purposes

[strong forum]

then you'd have to play 2f 2e

[undone jacinth]

so the stun adds to the package

[strong forum]

if his potion options werent so garbage

it might even be worth a shot

but not having spear conduit is a huge loss

[undone jacinth]

I wish I got to use it before I rerolled

that stun does actually sound super legit in m+ though

i'm pretty sure it must be good

[strong forum]

potentially

if its not on DR its busted

but again, conduit pathing is dog

[undone jacinth]

it wont be on DR

soulbind stuff isnt

thats why I think its pretty good

[real thunder]

Does anyone know if you can be malee'd while in a heroic leap? So if i have 5 mobs in front of me, and i want to kite by leaping away, can they malee me from behind and i leap over them? I think the answer is yes

[strong forum]

yes you can

but its never killed me

[bright salmon]

Yet

[strong forum]

like, youre so away so fast, unless you leap away the split-second they come out of your fresh shockwave so that they all melee you instantly at the same time

[ember marsh]

man im still torn

on what tank to make to try the role

:notlikethis:

[strong forum]

you should be good

[ember marsh]

dude fuck this no nitro emoji shit

[strong forum]

it just is

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/230701643161665536.png?v=1

[lavish oracle]

I've had cheat death trinket pop jumping over double enraged gargons

[ember marsh]

the not being able to nicknaem myself and no nitro emojis is about to be the deciding factor for me

:reeee:

[strong forum]

you can ask a mod to rename you

[undone jacinth]

prot warr is like the most 'tank' like tank

none of this healing bs

and it has at least 1 fun dps spec

[strong forum]

also the most facetankiest tank with CDs up

unless its raw magic dmg or dot shit

[lavish oracle]

Bear, pally, and warr are the trad tanks

[undone jacinth]

whats a trad

[strong forum]

traditional?

[lavish oracle]

Traditional

[undone jacinth]

good lord whats happening with abbreviations these days

[lavish oracle]

Trad has been around for decades, lmao

[strong forum]

ok boomer

lao

[undone jacinth]

for real?

[ember marsh]

who the fk says trad for traditional

[undone jacinth]

exactly

[ember marsh]

ive never heard that and i've been gaming for almost 20 years

[ionic fern]

People who were born decades ago? 👀

[lavish oracle]

Yeah, the tabletop game forum on 4chan is trad games and that's been around as long as I've been in the scene

[strong forum]

4chan

[ember marsh]

thats where u went wrong

[strong forum]

arthurfist

[undone jacinth]

tabletop game forum on 4chan

LOL

now I feel better

no offense bro

[lavish oracle]

Lol, I don't even go there it's just like...a thing

The site is such a corner stone of early internet culture you can't really escape it's influence

[undone jacinth]

it was a sign of things to come

but on your point I don't think pally fits the traditional tank mould any more

it's a bit weird now

like a support tank

[lavish oracle]

It's fundamentals are still there

Unfortunately Sotr is just a garbage mitigation button

[zenith monolith]

Noticed a few top players changing covenants, has anything changed for Prot at all ? Or still Kyrian Pelagos bis.

[undone jacinth]

hell yeah bro

[ionic fern]

Kyrian is still solid.
NF got a nice boost with the unlocking of Burrs - tho i'd expect it to get nerfed.

[undone jacinth]

a few did 😉

[lavish oracle]

I mean, we're pretty flexible but Kyrian pelagos is probably the most well rounded option

[ember marsh]

i think warr being one of the least for self healing of all the other tanks and hving phials is just too much to pass up

[undone jacinth]

if you exclude phial then NF niya is probably the best

but phial is a super nice to have

[ember marsh]

but if ur looking for raw dmg then yeah nf

[strong forum]

the healing from phial really isnt relevant at all imo

its just a tiny "oh fuck" button

[undone jacinth]

yeah agree with that

not using it for the heal

just bleeds usually

[strong forum]

you press one of your health potions / healthstone

its nothing more than that

[ionic fern]

It's a cleanse first and foremost.

Also the fact that most other covenant secondary skills are lackluster is a big factor.

[quiet nexus]

@patent osprey hey bro, what name plate addon do you use that displays the casts from all the mobs?

[ember marsh]

im afraid of lvling up to 60 and then not liking tanking 😭

[patent osprey]

@quiet nexus plater

[quiet nexus]

Ty

[undone jacinth]

level up in dungeons, gives you an idea

all that changes is you start dying in a global

[ember marsh]

lmao

i have 8 characters to 60 now 6 of them are dps

didnt enjoy playstyle of healing

fistweaving was pretty fun but it was lackluster

[undone jacinth]

well if you have other tanks already then can just try them?

[woeful vine]

@patent osprey hey man, do you have a consistent M+ group or do you have to pug certain positions?

[ember marsh]

i have a dk and a druid but they dont have gear to swap to tanking

i have a dh too

and a monk

only missing paladin and warrior

id prefer to lvl 50-60 as a tank than to swap an already lvl 60 character

[undone jacinth]

you dont really need any gear, just stuff with main stat

but yeah you do you

just might give you an idea of what tanking is gonna be like

[ember marsh]

idk i have this weird thing

where if i want to play something new i just make a new character instead of trying to regear one i already have

like

for example

i have a mistweaver 209 ilvl, if i wanted to make a brewmaster i'd just make a new character

[quiet nexus]

Lol then you can't really complain about leveling without knowing beforehand

[ember marsh]

stop being logical

i dont like it.

[quiet nexus]

Everyone got their own thing

Just give it a shot what can you lose

[ember marsh]

my life

[quiet nexus]

Life is long

[ember marsh]

no

with all the doordash im doing

im speedrunning death any%

[quiet nexus]

Doordash will brez u

[ember marsh]

shit im sure they would they'd lose some revenue if i stopped ordering

ordered doordash like 190 times over 6 months

granted some of it was for other people and not just myself

but still

[undone jacinth]

delivery services dont even deliver to my house

feels bad

[ember marsh]

just move

4head

[quiet nexus]

Ignore pain mitigates more than shield block, but runs out under hard hits fast, shield block mitigates less but lasts for a set amount of time.

Is that right?

[undone jacinth]

shield block is what you use vs blockable attacks in all scenarios

IP is what you use if you need further damage smoothing/protection

you would only IP without shield block if you are not taking blockable damage

[quiet nexus]

Even though sb mitigates less?

[brittle owl]

?

it doesn't?

[undone jacinth]

it doesnt mitigate less

[chilly brook]

It doesnt mitigate less

[quiet nexus]

Oh really

[brittle owl]

IP isn't mitigation

it's damage smoothing

[chilly brook]

You're thinking about this wrong

[quiet nexus]

It says blocks 36%

[brittle owl]

you can call it pseudo mitigation vs pure magic damage

[chilly brook]

Shield block doesn't have a cap

[brittle owl]

^

[quiet nexus]

Ig 50% but down side is limit

[brittle owl]

in low dtps scenarios sure

[chilly brook]

And you're also forgetting that block can crit

[brittle owl]

but im low dtps scenarios you live with nothing up

[quiet nexus]

So ig mainly for gaps in sb?

[brittle owl]

no

[chilly brook]

So that 36% can actually be 72%

[undone jacinth]

I explained to you what IP is

[brittle owl]

you dump rage on ip

[undone jacinth]

that's all the logic there is

[quiet nexus]

So during gaps in sb warrior just face tank?

[chilly brook]

Also heads up block damage is further reduced by armor

No

You use your other defensives

[undone jacinth]

"am I taking blockable damage?" yes = Block, no = IP -- "am I taking blockable damage but still taking more on top of that and I'm scared?" yes = Block & IP, no = Block

[chilly brook]

^ basically this

[quiet nexus]

So during gaps in sb uptime

Kite?

[undone jacinth]

there is no simple answer to your question

if you're gonna die when you're not blocking then yes run away

[sweet summit]

kite/sw/external/whatever. depends on situation

[chilly brook]

That depends

If you're actually gonna die yes

If you're fine no

[quiet nexus]

Hmm so generally you don't dump rage into ip during gaps in uptime

Better to dump into dps?

[chilly brook]

Uhhh

Look

Its really simple

If you are in danger you IP

If you're not you revenge

[quiet nexus]

Mmm ok

[undone jacinth]

you're thinking about it like a dps rotation

[chilly brook]

It's really a binary decision

[undone jacinth]

stop doing that and focus on identifying how in danger you are

there will be times where you're fucked even with SB and IP available

[verbal cedar]

Did some testing last night based in suggestions here. Thank you very much

I still need a weapon but I no longer feel quite as insufficient as I did before

[strong forum]

IP reduces dmg taken by 50% up until the absorb is done, if you get hit for 50k but you have a regular IP up (lets say7.5k) you get hit for 42.5k because the dmg intake was way higher than the absorb of IP could account for.

Block reduces basically infinite amounts of dmg by, as you said, 36%

assuming its blockable ofc

so from said 50k hit, SB would take away over 15k and would not be consumed because its not an absorb but a dmg reduction.

its an extreme example, but it explains it a bit better

now add IP ontop of SB, and you reduce the 50k hit, to below 30k

[ember marsh]

what i prefer

"dont get hit"

[strong forum]

ye but mans gotta understand how it work

[ember marsh]

blood dk is really the only reactionary tanking right

everything else is mostly proactive

[gaunt dawn]

blood dk isnt reactionary

its very proactive

[strong forum]

nothing is reactionary

you still plan ahead

[gaunt dawn]

you know exactly when the big hit is coming

[strong forum]

^

[gaunt dawn]

and you know your runic situation

[ember marsh]

yes but like its mostly reactionary

[gaunt dawn]

if you react on any tank

youre dead

[ember marsh]

as far as mitigation

[strong forum]

you do it after the hit

[ember marsh]

u should know what imean

[strong forum]

not before

[gaunt dawn]

BDK is the most proactive tank out there

cos mistakes in your runic flow have a knock on impact

🙂

[ember marsh]

stop making me feel dumb

[gaunt dawn]

😦

Sorry

shall i do a graph?

[strong forum]

its comparable to pwar, you just press deathstrike after getting hit, pwar presses SB before getting hit

[ember marsh]

make me feel smart

say ur wrong

[gaunt dawn]

yea im wrong

my b lads x

[ember marsh]

thanks

i feel better

[gaunt dawn]

i'll retire from guide writing too

😢

[strong forum]

hah now he feels bad again

[gaunt dawn]

Max was right, the BDK writers are bad people

😢

[strong forum]

ohno now its getting too real

:^)

[ember marsh]

fax

ok so let me ask this instead

why do you guys prefer prot warrior over a differnt tank

[chilly brook]

Cuz its offensive af

[strong forum]

i like warriors

[chilly brook]

[ember marsh]

what do you mean by offensive

[strong forum]

being offensive is being defensive for pwar

[chilly brook]

Like you literally smash everything you'd need to be offensive on CD to be more defensive

[ember marsh]

oh yeah i see waht u mean

[strong forum]

being aggressive = more rage

but for me its legit just because im a warrior player, in every single game i play i prefer melee warrior type of combat

[chilly brook]

Meanwhile if I wanted to be more aggro on blood dk I'd get myself killed because you actually have periods of time where it's gonna trap you to use your runic power or runes

That's an oversimplification but ye

Bear is just snooze

DH is ok but just don't enjoy it anymore

[strong forum]

and at this point its more my character, than my class

[chilly brook]

Pally is cool but my cotank was a pally and they didn't want double pally

But that doesnt matter anymore because I'm not raiding with them anymore

Which left BrM which I'm actually playing as my alt cuz it's fun now imo

[ember marsh]

if rushing jade wind didnt exist i'd play brewmaster

i have this weird hatred for that ability

[strong forum]

also i just hate losing HP

warri doesnt lose HP

:^)

flip flop healthbars give me anxiety

[ember marsh]

and theres very rare scenarios u take the keg ability instead of rjw

[chilly brook]

Really the only thing I actually dislike about warrior is the fact that we're behind in damage significantly

[ember marsh]

i imagine next tier brewmasters will rise up as windwalkers will naturally be weaker

[chilly brook]

Eh

[ember marsh]

unless they do some insane legendary or something

[strong forum]

for me its so ingrained into my brain that "if i drop hp fast im fucking up" but thats just a day to day thing for bdk and vdh

[chilly brook]

I don't buy the whole "monk doesnt scale" bs

They scaled fine in Legion

[strong forum]

every tank scales the same...

[chilly brook]

It's just a bad excuse

[ember marsh]

naturally they scale less unless there's some other outstanding factors

[strong forum]

they just have start problems

[ember marsh]

we're talking about dps

not tanks

i was speaking of windwalker

[chilly brook]

Again WW scaled fine in Legion

[patent osprey]

I usually just play with friends. not really a push group. Ryfie has been a great friend for a long time so he's just been playing sub even though we think outlaw is bis. but the other 3 we kinda rotate with whoever is on

[ember marsh]

i didn't play legion but from my understanding there were surrounding factors that made that so

[strong forum]

see this is why we dont have a 2.4k prot war

[chilly brook]

Scaling is just an excuse for the poor balancing that blizz had in BFA tbh

[strong forum]

Plka inting

[ember marsh]

raw stats increase makes windwalker naturally weaker since they dont gain that much benefit from haste

bbut again

[patent osprey]

bro, I work a day job. I don't got time to push for like 2.4

[ember marsh]

outstanding factors change that

[strong forum]

facts

[patent osprey]

T_T

[chilly brook]

They gain benefit from mastery and vers though

[ember marsh]

they do

[chilly brook]

And crit to an extent

[oblique garnet]

This doesnt apply to vdh

[chilly brook]

Just cuz they dont gain huge impacts from haste doesnt mean much

Look at their preferred legendary

[ember marsh]

yeah

[chilly brook]

It's a 33% haste buff

[strong forum]

VDH is still quite floppy imo

[ember marsh]

cause its basically a mini lust

[strong forum]

maybe not m+

but raid defo is

cuz spb

[oblique garnet]

If you play spiritbomb maybe

[ember marsh]

but yeah we'll see

[oblique garnet]

Its int

To play spb

Its not even better on raid

[woeful vine]

@patent osprey right on. throwing groups together lately i've been almost requiring a mage in my groups for sheep and their damage. they're about the only ones next to boomies who can come close to pulling threat off of me

[ember marsh]

but right now ww is near the top and unless 9.1 brings something wild they should fall a little

[strong forum]

eww

[oblique garnet]

Even for damage

[strong forum]

vdh literally ruined

[ember marsh]

which would make brm more appealing

id imagine vdh will get nerfed

or others will get buffed

[strong forum]

pls dont

[oblique garnet]

You just play soul cleave simulator

[strong forum]

buff others

dont nerf tanks

[chilly brook]

Just buff everyone else

Tbh

[strong forum]

vdh doesnt need nerfs at all

[oblique garnet]

If they dont touch vdh

With next tier

[ember marsh]

theres really no reason to bring something other than vdh

[patent osprey]

I also run double melee all the time cause that's just who are my friends which is kinda yikes for pushing

[oblique garnet]

They have ~90% uptime on fiery brand

[chilly brook]

I mean everyone sleeps on bear

[ember marsh]

bear is good

[chilly brook]

Bear is kinda nuts

[ember marsh]

but

vdh has chaos brand

[oblique garnet]

Bear>brm

[woeful vine]

yeah that can be dicey lol. i've been focusing on pushing lately.. got up to 52nd on the server last night.

[undone jacinth]

bear doesnt do enough dmg to be better than brm

if you're talking m+

[patent osprey]

good shit man ^.^ I'm sure a prot warrior who seriously pushes will pass me soon anyways

[oblique garnet]

It does

[patent osprey]

I'm too casual lol

[oblique garnet]

Brm damage is w/e

Bear damage is solid

[woeful vine]

haha not with you being ranked #1 in the world

[strong forum]

well

[undone jacinth]

what are you basing saying bear dmg is solid and brewmaster is w/e off of though

[ember marsh]

bear damage is pretty solid yes

[oblique garnet]

M+ and in raid

Bear does more damage

[brittle owl]

bear pumps

[oblique garnet]

Than brm

[ember marsh]

brewmaster dmg is pretty good with the keg smash legendary

but its not the top

[brittle owl]

brm is middle of the pack

[patent osprey]

if warrior discord supports me I can quit my job and play full time for us ;) for only a dollar a day you all can have a 2400 warrior representative ;)

[brittle owl]

bear is upper percentile

[ember marsh]

brm is very average but it brings mystic touch

[strong forum]

[ember marsh]

but iwth WW being popular its less desirable

i just fucking HATE RJW

[undone jacinth]

I asked what you're basing this off

not what your opinion was

[woeful vine]

lol @patent osprey i have a woodworking business from home. so i make my own hours

[oblique garnet]

Wdym opinion?

Its literally the facts

Just go look at logs

[undone jacinth]

I'm asking for the facts

[brittle owl]

warcraftlogs.com

there's your facts

[ember marsh]

reeeeeeeeeeeeee

all rjw

i have a burning hatred for it

[oblique garnet]

Sure your average +15 gamers might not pump good damage in m+

[ember marsh]

on my mistweaver i did everything in my power to not run rjw

[oblique garnet]

But majority of the playerbase is not very good at the game

[ember marsh]

i think where bear falls in m+ is convoke

convoke is pretty bad for multi target

[dark lark]

just kite and boomyweave 4Head

[chilly brook]

I mean monk at least in MoTS is ahead is damage by a few hundred dps

[brittle owl]

bear has an incredibly high skill ceiling for damage

[chilly brook]

Even in 20s

[ember marsh]

id imagine cause rjw

is insane dps

over the course of a dungeon or raid

[chilly brook]

More like WoO

[ember marsh]

its just basically permanent

oh well yeah

[undone jacinth]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/25#metric=dps&class=Monk&spec=Brewmaster vs https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/25#metric=dps&class=Druid&spec=Guardian

average for every key is higher apart from like NW which isnt based on dps anyway?

[chilly brook]

WoO+SSLG

[dark lark]

Watching Dorki (tomoboar) boomy weave the entire Ardenweald zone in one pull is a work of art

[chilly brook]

Dorki is nuts

But BrM DPS is seriously underrated

[ember marsh]

whats the difference between stormstout last keg and the burning one

they both seem solid

[brittle owl]

no one said ots underrated

like

[undone jacinth]

cant find any key that has an average dmg for guardian higher than brew at a high level within a decent sample and the best monk players like trance and best bear players like dorki have already said damage is the issue

[dark lark]

I love watching him for general tank stuff and he's super chill with that low bass voice of his 🍆

[undone jacinth]

for bear

[brittle owl]

it ain't bdk level

[oblique garnet]

Top monk on HoA is 800 dps behind the top bear

[undone jacinth]

and yet the average is higher

[ember marsh]

800 dps is pretty huge

i would get an average of the 90th percentile ish

[chilly brook]

Top bear is 500dps behind the top monk in MoTS

[strong forum]

top NW Bear is 3k dps ahead of BRM

[ember marsh]

instead of looking at the top

[strong forum]

[dark lark]

Not everybody uploads their keys to wlogs though

[ember marsh]

the top 10 or whatever is gonna be massively skewed

[oblique garnet]

Ofc

Because you cant snooze on your keyboard

If you want to do good damage on bear

[chilly brook]

Isn't NW cheating because orbs

And spears

[strong forum]

that was my joke

yes

[chilly brook]

Well lemme go remove my brain

Its not doing its job anyways

[dark lark]

We did the mark of the master assassin OP route for NW last night and it was bonkers

[undone jacinth]

why are all the dps numbers on the front page

different to the actual logs?

[dark lark]

Rogue with 100k dps on the room before Amarth

15k overall

[ember marsh]

i think front page dps is usualyl skewed

even for dps

some people do gimmick shit to fluff their logs

[strong forum]

im gaming!

[ember marsh]

u need to look at 90th to 95th percentile

[strong forum]

woah

[ember marsh]

and aggregate that data

[strong forum]

im so huge

[undone jacinth]

what I mean is look

[strong forum]

got that r1 NW 16 aswell!!

[oblique garnet]

M+ percentile is just based on the key level

[undone jacinth]

the highest bear parse in mists

says it 5.2k

but this is the log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/b4V6Tx8tWCqrHM2a#fight=4&type=damage-done

where he did 2k

[ember marsh]

warcraftlogs for m+ is pretty skewed

[strong forum]

10min of downtime

in the graph

dolphin

[undone jacinth]

the highest log for BRM in mists is 4.7k

[strong forum]

its bugged it seems

[ember marsh]

ive never uplaoded a log for m+

[undone jacinth]

but this is the log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jc1fz9an3gqXTtKv#fight=2&type=damage-done and he did 3.6k

[strong forum]

another 10min of downtime

[ember marsh]

thats odd

[undone jacinth]

so the front page shows less dps but the log shows tons more

[strong forum]

look at the graph

[oblique garnet]

Its just downtime

[strong forum]

something is fucky there

[ember marsh]

so which one is actually doing more dps

though

[oblique garnet]

Bear

[ember marsh]

cause if u look at the log brm is higher dps if u look at the overall thing bear is more

[undone jacinth]

so how are you saying bear there

[ember marsh]

no im saying for the specific 2 u just listed

[oblique garnet]

Bear was 5.2k

Brm was 4.7k

Brm log has less downtime

[strong forum]

https://i.imgur.com/VAPEElu.png @patent osprey

yo

[ember marsh]

shit on

[strong forum]

where you at

[undone jacinth]

ok so I just went and looked at the full activity time for u

bear is averaging about 2.6k dps

monk is averaging about 3.2k dps

so tell me again

how is bear doing more

[ember marsh]

but

i dont know what the data is

[strong forum]

this

is just keys completed

[ember marsh]

oh thats fucking points

lmao

where the fk is dmg

[strong forum]

not on there

[undone jacinth]

you cant do it thats the problem

thats why im doing all this shit

and this guy is just giving me blanket responses

[ember marsh]

thats dumb

[undone jacinth]

without actually knowing anything

data tells him the opposite

still tells me it says bear does more dmg

without even looking

is there a way to remove a time segment from the log instead of just focusing on it?

[ember marsh]

for st brewmaster sims higher than bear

but i think bear outperforms in multi target

and the difference is 200 dps for sim so

[undone jacinth]

I mean data doesnt support that

high level streamers dont

my experience doesnt

idk where that comes from?

[ember marsh]

yeah sims is just pure st

which is never really the case

well simcraft anyways

is st

u can do ur own sims for multi target

but that seems about accurate for st i'd say maybe

i dont know

convoke on bear should be nuts

[strong forum]

i honestly believe

pwar grossly oversims

[oblique garnet]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/b4V6Tx8tWCqrHM2a#fight=4&type=damage-done&pull=7

[ember marsh]

isnt pwar one of the lower dps outputs

[oblique garnet]

First boss

[strong forum]

yes scf

[ember marsh]

cause our conduits are ptty bad

[oblique garnet]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jc1fz9an3gqXTtKv#fight=2&type=damage-done&pull=7&translate=true

[strong forum]

well conduits eh

[oblique garnet]

The difference if you actually look into the log

[ember marsh]

compare our conduits to the other tanks

[oblique garnet]

Can be seen from the pulls they are doing

[strong forum]

but pwar is pretty low on the dmg side

[undone jacinth]

dude are you fucking trolling

first boss mists as druid

[oblique garnet]

monks group is doing double pull at the start

[undone jacinth]

do you know what convoke does?

[oblique garnet]

2nd boss they are about even

[undone jacinth]

yea and overall bear is like 600 dps behind

[oblique garnet]

The major difference in their damage breakdown comes from their pulls

How the pull around

[undone jacinth]

when I asked you which one is doing more

you told me it was bear

and bear is doing 600 dps less

so ?

[ember marsh]

its really really hard to compare logs when groups do things slightly differently

that might end up being more favored for guradian over brewmaster

or vice versa

[oblique garnet]

The druid in the log also has 210 weapon monk in the log has 2x226 weapons

[ember marsh]

thats pretty big

[undone jacinth]

okay so im using these logs because they were the highest logs for both and you told me that in these logs bear is doing more damage

I can find more if you want

[ember marsh]

so for the brewmaster players in here whats the difference in stormstout last keg and charred passions

they both seem really good

[chilly brook]

SS has some defensive benefit

Charred Passions is better for dps

[ember marsh]

interesting

this sim is using nightfae brewmaster

with charred passions

[chilly brook]

Yea

Because charred passions is best for dps

[ember marsh]

instead of weapons of order

[chilly brook]

I think stomp is theoretically most dps

[ember marsh]

is the defensiveness of ss actually noticeable

doesnt stomp also help ur teammates too

yeah

restores some hp

like a budget ashen hallow

[chilly brook]

But it's very positioning reliant

As if you move out of it say goodbye to resets

[ember marsh]

as a tank though that's fine, unless you're kiting a pack

[chilly brook]

Ehh you say that

[ember marsh]

heavily depends

[chilly brook]

But theres plenty of stuff that drops on the floor

Depending on dungeon

And you're also giving up on pot

And the huge mastery buff from WoO

Which is also defensive in nature

[patent osprey]

@strong forum what is that lol

[chilly brook]

Plus WoO is BiS for WW

[undone jacinth]

here are the second highest logs from the same key, same keystone level, a 221 monk with a 226 weapon vs a 225 bear druid with a 226 weapon:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/frz9KLYaDHgjB7vC#fight=1&type=damage-done
v
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PL3VnfRJmTwrNbQx#fight=32&type=damage-done

monk 500 dps higher

[strong forum]

yayayay dont get carried away now Plka

[ember marsh]

top brewmaster in the world is using kyrian with the charred passions legendary

as far as parsing goes anyways

[patent osprey]

dude

[ember marsh]

but ofc

[patent osprey]

there's a Korean necrolord prot war on first page!!!

#20

[strong forum]

impossible

[undone jacinth]

guys I got something to tell you

[patent osprey]

I've never seen it :O

[undone jacinth]

I'm Korean

[ocean yoke]

all hail the korean necrolord leaper!

[undone jacinth]

the journey is nearly complete

[strong forum]

whats dorkis bear called

[undone jacinth]

tomoboar

[strong forum]

aw man

he doesnt log his keys

[undone jacinth]

naw

he also memes a lot