I'm just a saying +15 has nothing to do with DH or warrior
#protection
neat dirge
dense flame
We were OP all of BFA almost
astral orbit
If I had the same knowledge and experience as a DH I would've timed a fucking 25
neat dirge
Both classes can faceroll them
neat dirge
Beyond op
nimble drift
We had BFA and we are still able to do 15s
dense flame
No
astral orbit
Either in DPS OR in tanking
neat dirge
No
astral orbit
They have
dense flame
DH was shit
nimble drift
And DH have not been OP for a while lmfao
neat dirge
Dh tank sucked ass in legion
dense flame
Most of BFA
dense flame
Corruption made them insane
astral orbit
Yeah
dense flame
With that build
nimble drift
Lol bro every tank with twilight dev was good
astral orbit
Dude dh dps with haste from Azerite gear
nimble drift
with DH near the bottom of the good tanks
astral orbit
They were sick
dense flame
Tbh I am not so much a fan of the kiting game currently. Getting dicked doesn’t feel good
neat dirge
None
dense flame
At least fury is decent in keys
lilac spire
battle shout
astral orbit
In cleaving sure
astral orbit
Yeah but compared to warriors, outlaw is actually good in m+
dense flame
I enjoy being a shout bot
neat dirge
Yeah but DK are better
dense flame
If only I could simp harder and be a reflect / banner boy
But too bad my dream was ruined
astral orbit
They just did us dirty this season
I went from fury to prot because they killed Fury
It's a ded spec now
dense flame
Don’t worry. We will be OP in a tier or two
dense flame
Fury rn pumps in keys dog
astral orbit
I've yet to see one
lilac spire
fury does pretty decent in keys
dense flame
Like of course you lose to hunter/boomy/mage.
astral orbit
And rogue and DK
astral orbit
That is only cleave based damage
lilac spire
ofc, thats what fury is good at
mellow patio
Fury is actually huge pump in keys wat
astral orbit
Yeah but gl getting in a group during tyrann week
dense flame
But your other 2 dps can pump bosses
mellow patio
Running keys on tyr 
dense flame
And you do average st
lilac spire
pugging in general 
astral orbit
I wish I had friends so that I would'nt have to pug
dense flame
Hey you get that one or two god ragnaros players
Makes you forget every other terrible key you’ve done
lilac spire
a mage said i was trolling today because im dps warrior
thats the only pug i did this week
dense flame
lilac spire
i cant imagine having to pug every week, id honestly lose my mind
mellow patio
I mean TO BE FAIR dps war is kind of trolling. But not because they are bad dam
heavy sail
If you consider the data from r.io, the two most failed dungeons are DoS and SD.
With NW near the bottom but ahead of those two
So I don’t think it’s fair to say “blizzard has better data, so they must be right” the data is available for anyone to view
And SD being nerfed but DoS completely dodging a tuning pass while NW is nerfed to oblivion doesn’t make much sense to me
But w/e
I’m not going to complain too much, the second boss in NW was just needlessly annoying so I’m glad they’ve neutered it.
urban portal
paper valve
Hey guys, I want some opinions.
I'm thinking about playing a tank in M+. Something like a prot warrior but the community perception is so bad at warriors that I generally think they're trash at m+. I already played a VDH in bfa so I want something new. I'm not thinking about playing a ping-pong HP game as a bdk nor trying bear since I already have a resto. Prot pallies is also off the list since I main a ret paladin and I don't like playing monks.
So I wanted to know, how bad prot warrior really is? I know they struggle with magic dmg and the ability to kite effectively. I play a tank every season not to go after super high keys, but for something chill like getting +10s on all dungs as a tank. Would I struggle if I played a prot warrior?
Also any tips would mean a lot!
deft sapphire
You wouldn’t struggle getting +10s done on any tank, that’s much more dependent on your gameplay
For magic damage you need to learn what’s reflectable and what packs you really need other cds like shield wall to survive
heavy sail
I think you can pick up on a lot of tips and general knowledge just by reading through the wowhead/icyveins guides, as well as posting and asking questions here. If there's specific questions I'm sure several people in here could answer them. As far as your question about "how bad prot warrior really is?" The answer is that it's not bad. No tank in the game is. Community perception and people habitually tier listing things is the reason you and many others think that. It could be said that VDH > Pwarr, sure, but listing things out in such a way doesn't mean that the lesser spec is unviable.
And your personal skill and capabilities will cover a lot more ground than any FotM choice you could pick. Familiarity and comfort with a spec are ultimately going to be your meal ticket especially with tanking.
sweet summit
All 👏 tanks 👏 are 👏 bad
strong forum
Every tank is perfectly fine to handle 15s with ease
So you're safe in your 10s
But as erga said, all tanks are bad, and you're not gonna magically do amazing by playing a different tank if you're struggling in lower keys
sick sentinel
What i found is to just keep practicing to learn the mechanics and such. Completed my first +5 today and it felt so amazing to see the bronze challenger achievement as a tank.
paper valve
Thank you guys for all the input!!
thorn kayak
Why are all tanks bad? Because we are very much forced to kite?
strong forum
Tanks are insanely weak compared to previous expansions
Defensively speaking
The kite meta is a result of overtuned dungeon mechanics and undertuned tank survivability
In legion it was a different kind of reasoning behind the kite meta
orchid frigate
wonder what the reasoning behind all this is
jagged pier
legion let me pull the entire dungeon TC once and run till its all dead C:
strong forum
Reasoning behind this is, that blizzard is scared to give tanks too much power
orchid frigate
hmm
strong forum
And then overcorrect them
jagged pier
like in mop and legion
orchid frigate
yeah they typically overcorrect stuff
jagged pier
oh Nome did u see my picture yesterday?
strong forum
They didn't like tanks doing top dmg in mop so they got rid of vengeance, they didn't like tanks needing to do barely anything and keep aggro forever and kite so they reduced threat gen a shitton in bfa
I didn't
jagged pier
yer im not getting there XD
strong forum
They didnt like the bfa vers meta so they introduced diminishing stat returns and nerfed tank dmg because pwar contributed so much to high key requirements with dmg output
While forgetting aggro issues existing
orchid frigate
:p
orchid frigate
heh
strong forum
Now they have reduced everything so much from overcorrection and designing dungeons for mdi with needing kicks and CC, that they kinda forgot about tank balancing
jagged pier
imagine not understanding that most of the power gain was borrowed power then completely reworked the class
orchid frigate
at least some dungeon balancing inc
jagged pier
LUL they nerfed shadowmeld skipping prideful XD
holy shit you keep the weps if you die in NW
they are killing keys
these fixing wont make more ppl run them imo, they need to fix the loot
orchid frigate
my wife got carried through full heroic clear yday and got 1 piece 🙂
ionic fern
Ofcourse not. There is no reason to run keys outside of the weekly vault and "i like big r.io numbers".
orchid frigate
the loot scarcity is another overcorrected thing :/
jagged pier
just pvp 🤷
ionic fern
That's just bad design.
orchid frigate
i hope they throw in a badge earning system
undone jacinth
don’t think they did stop melding pride
smoky sparrow
fingers crossed for a 226 shield later
jagged pier
just an over correction
quaint glade
hello, excuse me for the stupid question, I started playing prot again, is there any specific stats I should go for? Like in BFA it was haste, what is now? Or does not matter?
ionic fern
hello, excuse me for the stupid question, I started playing prot again, is there...
Take a look at the first pinned message.
In general ilvl>Haste>Vers
quaint glade
perfect thank you I was going in the right direction then 😄
undone jacinth
holy crap necrotic wake is gonna be the easiest key in SL now
and slg could be a real fight... what a day
orchid frigate
short and easy, sounds good
quaint glade
being a venthyr prot is not bad with https://www.wowhead.com/spell=340159/service-in-stone it hink 😄
tardy sequoia
guys i want your opinion on something. i have 1,8k soul ashes, should i wait 2-3 weeks to craft second legendary right to 4th grade or just 2-3 is enough then upgrade later?
right now i have pauldrons ilvl 200 and TL legendary legs 235
jagged pier
being a venthyr prot is not bad with https://www.wowhead.com/spell=340159/servic...
if u regularly drop below 40% or die
which is kind of signs your doing somthing wrong 🤷
tardy sequoia
if i swap i'd be ilvl 213 boots and 210/225 ilvl TW pauldrons
quaint glade
i couldnt afford even a rank 2 lol so crafted rank 1
tardy sequoia
i can afford R4 directly
smoky sparrow
holy shit they nerfed every dungeon
smoky sparrow
or the ones that i avoided doing cus i fucking hate nw/plague
strong forum
Massive NW nerfs and great SD nerfs
jagged pier
^^
strong forum
Plague is 👌
quaint glade
holy shit they nerfed every dungeon
where can i check it? 😄
jagged pier
im actually happy i did KSM before the nerfs tbh
smoky sparrow
its like getting an indirect buff lulw
jagged pier
where can i check it? 😄
wowhead
quaint glade
https://raider.io/characters/eu/twisting-nether/Omego#season=season-sl-1 also how did he unlocked the Draven, isnt it unlocks at reown 29?
quaint glade
wait what 😮 so all this time I could choose Draven?!!!
undone jacinth
for the last couple weeks
quaint glade
i was thinking its unlocked at 29
strong forum
You unlock the 3rd soulbind with finishing the campaign
Which is finished since last week
sonic jungle
Do you guys think it’s easier to get into pugs as prot than it is as fury even tho prot isn’t the most desirable tank?
ionic fern
Yes. There are a lot more DPS players than there are tank players.
jagged pier
^^
jagged pier
not true
acoustic stratus
i hate the wall in m+
ionic fern
I mean..UF/AM does increase your Demo uptime with Thunderlords.
strong forum
You gotta read the whole thing
ionic fern
But UF/AM are not the "go-to" talents for m+, you should aim for bolster/Ravager.
tardy sequoia
But UF/AM are not the "go-to" talents for m+, you should aim for bolster/Ravager...
yeah that's why i was asking that
ionic fern
Just play with BOlster/RAvager and either The Wall or Thunderlords.
jagged pier
i wanna know why wow head still has stuff like that up there
acoustic stratus
does anyone know how to check if a death by melee was unmitigated in wowlogs? pretty sure denathrius is smacking me from the back in the mirror transitions which is killing me
tardy sequoia
but if i'm struggling with survivability with thunderlord, can the wall resolve some issues or it's likely the player's fault?
i mean not revolutioning of course, just a bit more survivable
ionic fern
If you're struggling with survivability then it's probably your dungeon/class knowledge.
acoustic stratus
like I die just by denathrius melee and my guild is ready to execute me
sonic jungle
This is a legit question I’m not trying to troll. But with the current meta of just running like a mad man wouldn’t a competitive leggo just be leaper lol
In m+
ionic fern
like I die just by denathrius melee and my guild is ready to execute me
Damage Taken->Melee->Events
acoustic stratus
ty
also when he teleports its pretty annoying having to constantly spin 180 just block him
turbid cargo
@acoustic stratus depending on how you guys do your mirrors, you may also be getting slapped with a stack of wracking pain on you
turbid cargo
yep he straight up doesn't hit that hard (not against me at least). an unmitigated melee with wracking pain on you would hit that hard
tardy sequoia
If you're struggling with survivability then it's probably your dungeon/class kn...
thanks, i'll try recording some logs to see where i make mistakes
sonic jungle
If he gets behind you on movement. Your boned. Our monk tonight on heroic was getting randomly crit for 25k thru stagger
turbid cargo
also when he teleports its pretty annoying having to constantly spin 180 just bl...
also, strafe instead of doing the spin. He'll move more smoothly (less likely to port behind you), and you'll always be able to block him
acoustic stratus
I try, but sometimes he gets hits in
probably just not mitagting correctly
or blowing shield wall too soon
turbid cargo
yep if the swing timer lines up badly he can. but if you're strafing when you move long distances the window for it is much smaller
quaint glade
Which is finished since last week
I could not complete it as it says to continue rescue somone from court idk where is it
turbid cargo
(though strafing with the horseshit camera angles near the mirrors sucks haha)
acoustic stratus
if im using the wall should i just hit shield wall if i got no cds or block charges?
undone jacinth
shouldn’t be very often that’s the case but you can do that yeah
jolly thistle
The mirror transitions are a perfect time for SW
acoustic stratus
guess ill have to save shield wall when i go wracking pain on me
undone jacinth
you generally want to use it when you need it, when you know you’re about to suffer, due to lack of CDs or just something that’s gonna slap
jagged pier
guess ill have to save shield wall when i go wracking pain on me
u can just swap at 1 stack u know
acoustic stratus
we are, seems im not strafing correctly and just getting smacked
undone jacinth
check your logs for your damage intake
acoustic stratus
im reading them atm
undone jacinth
can normally figure it out
acoustic stratus
not sure what to look for though
undone jacinth
can look at lots of things
e,,g your hp over time then pinpoint those time segments to look at damage taken / healing taken
can look at block up time / mitigation
general damage in take for the phase
etc
acoustic stratus
how do i look at hp spikes
ionic fern
Your own HP?
Resources.
undone jacinth
Resources
jagged pier
i mean you shouldnt really use anything they do in pugs or your own keys tbh
acoustic stratus
yeah, he hit me for 27k
how do i look up block uptime/mitigation at a certain time
undone jacinth
Select the time period in the graph at the top and go to damage taken
then you can turn on or off the aura modifier with the shield block icon to see the difference
acoustic stratus
thanks, seems my death was my fault
maiden ravine
bleh, tanking a +9 halls at 195 ilvl suuucked
thorn kayak
Are you guys having both Thunder and Wall leggoes for M+? And switching them around with Tyra and Fortified?
jagged pier
i just run the wall tbh
thorn kayak
I wonder whether I should farm Wall
ionic fern
I don't really swap around my legendaries either, just defaulted into Thunderlords.
maiden ravine
at least I did a dungeon on my warrior. I have barely played her. 😦
thorn kayak
Currently having TLord
thorn kayak
To the thorgast we go ... again 😄 I was quite happy having Signet for raiding and TLord for M+ done. But Wall might be just too good to ignore.
maiden ravine
Give me two legendaries in 9.1 so I can run The Wall and Unbreakable Will please, Blizzard!
jagged pier
i mean the wall if our best leggo for raiding
thorn kayak
that is correct, but I raid as DPS. My guild is full of raid tanks 😅
tardy sequoia
that is correct, but I raid as DPS. My guild is full of raid tanks 😅
then switch guild 🤣
tardy sequoia
i just run the wall tbh
why do you run TW instead of TL?
jagged pier
becuase i prefer it
thorn kayak
then switch guild 🤣
Dont get me wrong 😄 I enjoy playing Arms as well, also I am quite a casual player so I am fine of gearing prot for M+ and Arms for Raid. My guild is perfect for someone like me. But in M+ I enjoy tanking much more and if I would like to have seasonal achiev again I might need Wall for tyranical weeks.
tardy sequoia
I just default to wall
i see you run AM instead of bolster for M+
jagged pier
hes probably AM because he was raiding last time online
tardy sequoia
i thought you know, maybe he wanted even more SW cd reduction 🤣
jagged pier
you can use it for that
but its not worth it to drop bolster for that in keys anyway
strong forum
i see you run AM instead of bolster for M+
I just logged out in AM cuz it was raid night
I always run ravager+bolster in m+
sweet surge
can't not run Bolster these days
Non-ironically thinking of trying out War Machine as Prot 
Any1 got any feedback
for M+ blasting ofc
sweet summit
Kinda owns in torghast
jagged pier
its not
sweet surge
sounds promising for M+ ❤️
sweet summit
Ah yes 1 more rage per auto attack pog
jagged pier
thats what it is
feral gulch
I never want to use devastate again
sweet summit
50% increased rage from auto attacks
jagged pier
and you dont get extra ss procs
sweet summit
50% of 2 is 1
tardy sequoia
I never want to use devastate again
use tclap as a filler instead of devastate when running devastator
tardy sequoia
more intricate than anything
jagged pier
i havent found that but punish is a good talent
tardy sequoia
btw is there a macro or something for quickly adding prio to targets?
instead of you know select mob, right click icon, skull
sweet summit
I use auto marker and opie
sweet surge
I just have keybinds for marks
tardy sequoia
how do you do that?
sweet surge
the automarker WA is okay I guess. I hate it myself
sweet summit
Idk
Spent some time to set it up properly and its golden
sweet surge
monk I run keys with had it
broken light
does venthyr suck for us?
sweet summit
Kinda
sweet surge
venthyr is trash tier for prot yea
strong forum
I use numpad to mark targets
sweet surge
complete dog* in m+
heady ivy
Is 195 ilvl too low for +9 keys? I have attempted NW at this level twice and I was getting destroyed and I dont know if it was me sucking, my ilvl or my healer
sweet surge
Kyrian covers your biggest weakness as prot, which is snap aggro
heady ivy
Or just the necrotic bolt cast not getting interrupted
strong forum
With 195 you can do up to 15s if you're good
sweet surge
NW is all cheese. Are you cheesing?
strong forum
🤷♂️
orchid frigate
if your group is good as well
strong forum
NW is alot of using weapons
heavy sail
If you have to ask you kinda already know
orchid frigate
kicking stuff and what not
heady ivy
Hmm swe were just clearing packs normally to be honest
heavy sail
It’s not that 195 is impossible but it’s certainly far from ideal
heady ivy
No kyrian
sweet surge
First pull you invis to goliath, pull 4 groups, spear lust and blast ❤️
heavy sail
Wouldn’t do anything more than a weekly +10
strong forum
Generally, m+ is all about knowledge, practice and your dps players actually doing dps
sweet surge
@sweet summit I legit did not know our AAttacks do 2 rage until you said it and provoked me to test on dummy. Jesus
heavy sail
There’s a lot that knowledge implies, but at 195 you’ll encounter unavoidable mechanics that will just BTFO you without careful consideration and group planning
sweet surge
You learn basic stuff even after a while I guess
heavy sail
At +15 level
undone jacinth
just wait for the nerfs on weds then wait for the next reset after that for affixes xd
strong forum
If you don't know exactly what you're going to pull and what the mobs do you pulled, you're gonna have a bad time
tardy sequoia
I use numpad to mark targets
How do you do that?
sweet summit
heady ivy
There’s a lot that knowledge implies, but at 195 you’ll encounter unavoidable me...
Kk thanks all
sweet surge
what are you struggling with is the question, I guess?
nimble drift
Theres a weakaura that auto marks targets in packs you move your mouse over
sweet surge
If it's the necromancer groups, then blast them with Anime Orb for example
nimble drift
marks kill prio and kick targets
strong forum
Pride buff makes bosses alot easier
heavy sail
195 is totally fine for +9 btw I should have prefaced it with that, I was referring to things past ~12
nimble drift
its nice for calls that I make for my team
heavy sail
Which is when you’ll probably get creamed at 195
sweet surge
really depends tbh when it comes to just ilvl
is it ilvl195 because you've barely played and therefore have little knowledge of M+
or because you're on an alt and you know your stuff
heavy sail
And yeah +9 is quite a bit tougher than +10 on the basis of prideful alone
heady ivy
I guess what I am struggling with is what to check if Im dying as a tank. I feel like there is so much more things you have to know to improve
sweet surge
the latter means 15s are more than doable at 195
heady ivy
Sonfor example for dps it is much easier to see if youre improving i
strong forum
Ye, goes alot into learning m+ tanking
heavy sail
@sweet surge if he’s asking if it’s doable, odds are it’s the former.
No offense or anything
sweet surge
@heady ivy Well, there are several things that kill tanks in NW. The Bone-thingie cast from Loyal Creation in first platform from the guy that shields himself does plenty of upfront damgur to you
heady ivy
When i die as a tank it is much more involved to see whAt went wrong, did I die because i messed up, wAs the healer not doing enough, were dps not doing kicks
orchid frigate
when i went to mists for my first +9 i was around that ilvl and got killed by second pull and group disbanded
sweet surge
The Necromancers/Sorceres spamming you with Necrotic Bolts are ouchie
Then you've got Gruesome Cleave from the shield bastards in 2 packs
heavy sail
I kite those dudes
sweet surge
Then you'vegot the fatties in the Ziggurat level before 3rd boss. 2 Tendarizes max, then leap the 3rd to reset
heavy sail
Always
sweet surge
Those are the mobs that kill you in NW
heavy sail
I’m hardly a Prot player these days Nom
strong forum
Smh
heavy sail
My BrM is on the come up
strong forum
Herecy
sweet surge
the fatso that doesn't do Tenderize but has a stinker aura on him is another one
heady ivy
Yeah I think last time it was mostly the necrotic bolts
But thanks for the help though, ill see if i can run it again tonight ^^
strong forum
What annoys me with the stinker aura is, the screen effect makes you believe you can step out of a ground effect
sweet surge
Well that you can't handle alone. You need interrupts or creative routing to skip or just leap to LoS
strong forum
BUT YOU CAN'T
orchid frigate
just snap them down
strong forum
So it's literally attacking my senses of stepping out of something
But theres nothing to step out of
sweet surge
@strong forum true
strong forum
💢
heavy sail
I’m having a hard time deciding on a main rn, all my alts are pretty well geared at this point
And I don’t have enough time to play them all 
orchid frigate
alts in SL??
strong forum
I got my vdh to 60 week1
sweet surge
same
tardy sequoia
alts in SL??
that's impossible, there's so much to do
strong forum
Aaaaand that's about it
sweet surge
VDH bores the crap outta me
nimble drift
I kinda feel bad. I joined a new guild thats doing mythic and we raid tomorrow, but they STILL haven't told their current pally tank that hes being sat
sweet surge
and im all about M+ rn
strong forum
It's such a shit playstyle now
heavy sail
I have a 202 Hpally, 208 BrM and 213 Prot Warrior
heavy sail
My Pally is entirely PVP geared tho lmao
tardy sequoia
I agree
undone jacinth
I’m having a hard time deciding on a main rn, all my alts are pretty well geared...
When reset comes, take note of what character you log in to first
heavy sail
I’ve just been cheesin
strong forum
Who gives a fuck if its "better"
undone jacinth
that’s the main
strong forum
If it ain't fun it ain't fun
sweet surge
Frankly, I was watching Nerfmeta's 24 hard deplete of Sanguine Depths
A tiny buff and at 25-27 keys we might be back to Prot btw
tardy sequoia
man that's what i've repeating to my guildies
sweet surge
DH can't live that shit
strong forum
Vdhs kite enormous amounts
heavy sail
I love tanking and enjoy PvP, and SL is the most garbage ass expansion for multi-spec players
nimble drift
TRUE
heavy sail
So it basically forces me to have an alt
tardy sequoia
but they don't drop aggro, they heal themselves
strong forum
And then just spam fucking soul cleave
tardy sequoia
and such shit
nimble drift
thats why I'm not playing arms and leveling a warlock instead
strong forum
You don't drop aggro as prot either
tardy sequoia
our heals are the healthstone gummies, the kyrian potions...
strong forum
It's a shit excuse of "vdh has ranged damage"
sweet surge
yeah I hate having to switch conduits for pvp and M+ all the time. ALways insufficient Conduit Energy or whatever its called
strong forum
Heals don't matter if you can't live Malaachi
heavy sail
There’s no way that Hpally stays as strong as it is in PvP btw, shits just broken.
strong forum
We mitigate dmg, they mitigate a bit and heal
sweet surge
I mean, people keep quoting VDH's kiting being the reason they're BiS, which is so bullshit
tardy sequoia
if you do a mistake as DH or pally you know "shit happens" let's heal or leech
strong forum
They just have slightly more damage and can meta abuse
strong forum
No
heavy sail
And pump damage like crazy
tardy sequoia
but if you mistake as PW you are like dead
strong forum
Only 1 long CD silence
And 1 long CD fear
Vdh dmg isn't that much higher than prot in m+
heavy sail
Cope
strong forum
Cuz you can't play spb
heavy sail
It’s way higher lol
undone jacinth
Hm
strong forum
Ya idk chief
sweet surge
what do you mean way higher dude
undone jacinth
don’t think you’ve played enough VDH lol
strong forum
I pump 3.8-4.3k overall as prot currently
sweet surge
I watch VDH M+ all the time
undone jacinth
their dmg is a joke
strong forum
Have yet to see a vdh higher
sweet surge
I outpump most of the big boys
lower key ofc :>
did 4.6K overall in a Mists 19 the other day
undone jacinth
notice how everyone quotes mists with their dps stories
sweet surge
im ilvl 227 equipped tho KEKW
sweet surge
@undone jacinth because it's indicative
do you quote Plaguefall then? Where you explode half the dungeon with the Plagueborers?
undone jacinth
indicative of what you can do if you don’t have to tank lol
undone jacinth
sigh
heavy sail
What’s your ilvl nom
strong forum
221
jagged pier
yer but BrM has busted damage
tardy sequoia
i'm not the only one saying this btw
tardy sequoia
strong forum
But not that much higher
sweet surge
Frankly, what matters in the current state of M+, especially if you're running without MD/Tricks like me, is the fact taht DH can snap threat faster
i.e. burst higher than prot
and then leave
heavy sail
Inability to hold threat was somewhat valid pre-nerf.
strong forum
This tier list bullshit is written by petko
tardy sequoia
strong forum
Dps player
tardy sequoia
LOL why tf are they allowing him to write then
strong forum
Cuz his rio number was large
sweet surge
because he's a high-end M+ player
heavy sail
Like you’d need at least 2 sometimes 3 GCDs to establish threat before the buff
sweet surge
but that doesn't mean he understands the ins and out ofevery spec
heavy sail
Spear made it trivial from the get go though so it was a non-issue
tardy sequoia
yeah but this doesn't entitle him to write guides from sometimes that doesn't compete him
sweet summit
Thats not a guide
tardy sequoia
Thats not a guide
not strictly a guide cmon
strong forum
The list prolly hasn't been updated since release
tardy sequoia
"guidelines" ffs
strong forum
Or beta even
heavy sail
Tier lists are cancer, they manipulate our tiny ape brains
sweet surge
people read way too much into them is the issue
heavy sail
Prot still the worst tank
tardy sequoia
Or beta even
13 jan
strong forum
Colour me surprised
heavy sail
Actually you know what I’m walking that back, BDK is worse.
sweet surge
DH has banger cooldowns to live for a while every pull and great deeps is all. For the rest, he can jump around. That's about it
tardy sequoia
unfortunately that is the meta and people are too brainless to understand that maybe that concernes like 0.1% of players
sweet surge
Its utility kit isn't why it's king
tardy sequoia
one of the last times i applied into a pug the leader told me "you are a warrior, you aren't a dependable tank"
heavy sail
Well what tank has better utility though
sweet surge
As prot, you inevitably have pulls where you rely on just SBlock
heavy sail
They still have the best
tardy sequoia
i'm really tired of this shit and of people who contributes to that
heavy sail
I guess guardian has some good spells
heavy sail
Because obviously it’s not the end all
sweet surge
precisely
heavy sail
It’s just one factor of many
sweet surge
it also depends on dungeon design. For example, I am still looking for bonkers intervene opportunities in high M+
very few if any exist unfortunately
used to work on 1st boss charge in SD. Now it doesn't randomly for some reason 😦
heavy sail
DBTS intervene on arms is cash money
sweet surge
Spell Reflect was also smashed with the nerf hammer, which was super important in BFA
3rd boss in Shrine ❤️
heavy sail
With VDH, they have huge defensive CDs that make them extremely durable, they have top-tier utility and the best tank damage in the game after the paladin nerfs.
Couple that with being, what, the 2nd best kiting class?
sweet surge
they have huge defensive CDs on 1 minute*
heavy sail
Right
heavy sail
And like you said they can snap threat very easily
It’s not like they have to sit in mobs for several GCDs
sweet surge
most of them also play w/ a hunter too, that helps big time
if you watch Naowh's Sanguine week push, he's barely actually tanking because 2 hunters :>
heavy sail
Yeah.
Man MM has everything
Kinda bullshit
They have threat generation, an immunity, mobility, huge AoE, top tier ST, some self sustain
sweet surge
and are basically a melee caster save for Aimed Shot every now and then :>
strong forum
i'm really tired of this shit and of people who contributes to that
It's 8.0 all over again
We got to hear the same shit
Same lists
sweet surge
I still think, based off of Nerfmeta's 24 Sanguine 2 days ago, that VDH might be out at really high end keys... like 25-26
In the 1st boss room, they legit pulled 2 of the Engorge spiders + 2 two small non-elite ones. They live so long he ran out of CD's
Got hit for 85.7K deeps in 2.5sec according to his Death Log
strong forum
Yes
sweet surge
because you can facetank better
strong forum
Mitigation tanks scale better into high keys
heavy sail
It’s still unlivable damage
strong forum
Issues arise on other spots though for us
But pwar is insanely strong in SD in general
Vs the bosses
heavy sail
True
sweet surge
I have 57% phys reduction from Armor, 16% from versa. 23% chance to block passively, 14% parry 3% dodge
So even outside of even Sblock
I can facetank more
strong forum
Yes but they have FB where we have SB ( roughly, not all the time on all targets)
And meta
sweet surge
Yes, sure, but point is
his DPS squad doesn't have coolies forevery pack
and at some point packs live beyond FB/Meta/Spikes
heavy sail
Prot fairs better than the other specs at super high keys, I would imagine that’s true.
sweet surge
and you have to facetank or kite (which you don't always have room for)
heavy sail
BrM fizzles out because not much active mitigation, but honestly I’ve found that on a lot of my pulls I almost never get hit
You can kite indefinitely with the right setup
So I guess that opens avenues for pushing really far
sweet surge
kiting isn't really always a good thing too, you drop DPS that way almost always
preferable to dying ofc
heavy sail
Right
You can still do a good chunk of your rotation from range though
Keg smash and breathe fire are very generous
sweet surge
but for really high keys, where you run out of inventive routes and cheese massive pulls, it starts mattering
I mean for the actual DPS classes, not necessarily the tnak
tank for sure loses deeps
heavy sail
Oh gotcha
sweet surge
I play w/ 2 melees in M+ along with a firemage who whines about his Flame Patch 24/7
maiden ravine
That's part of the reason I love bear with balance affinity, those 3 extra yards to all abilities is so nice for kiting
sweet surge
kiting is yikers
strong forum
I play w/ 2 melees in M+ along with a firemage who whines about his Flame Patch ...
Hate mages
heavy sail
I always pull big and kite on my monk lmao
maiden ravine
"You aren't pulling massively every time my combustion is up!!!!!"
heavy sail
That just seems like the way to play it idk
strong forum
M-muh patchy!!
sweet surge
well, to be fair, it is their 2nd highest source of damgur :>
maiden ravine
Silly mage, my CDs that let me pull big are longer than combustion.
sweet surge
it does matter
strong forum
It does matter but you move for a reason
heavy sail
If you’re playing guardian ironfur is all you need baybee
Actually incentivized to pull more mobs
sweet surge
yep
but it just goesto show how kiting isn't a great thing
my 2nd melee is a DK. Kiting fucks up w/ his pet's cleave big time too
maiden ravine
Ironfur isn't enough when you're pulling say, 4 dogs in HoA at once, but that's where incarn comes in, but that's still a 3 minute CD.
heavy sail
I like picking up Fury Warriors for melee, assuming I don’t already have a rogue or something
Big dick trash DPS
And no downtime
sweet surge
Sigil of CHains is another reason VDH is so good rn too
Thats why DKs went bonkers on MDI
maiden ravine
I'm so glad next week I won't feel punished for having more than 1 melee in group
sweet surge
only time their pet can cleave all mobs at once ❤️
heavy sail
I usually stick to one melee DPS even when spiteful isn’t a thing
Depends on the dungeon I guess
sweet surge
spiteful is dogshit for my party with 2 melees
maiden ravine
if it's not spiteful, it's quaking, or sang, or storming.
sweet surge
I mean even when they're focused on not dying to them
its such a noticeable drop in deeps
maiden ravine
Next week is just Bolstering/Necrotic
sweet surge
next week gon be fun
sweet surge
y
heavy sail
Or did they remove that
maiden ravine
With all the boss nerfs I actually don't think I'll mind next week except for DOS
sweet surge
it did last time necrotic was up
misty tartan
I run 4-5 melee with guildies this week (holy pala) and it massively helps to keep the pack moving so spiteful don't reach mobs, and be on the correct side when enemy dies so you don't have to walk past shades to next pack
heavy sail
Honestly happy with anything that’s not tyrannical
misty tartan
Timed all 15s with that ghetto comp
maiden ravine
well it is Tyrannical
sweet surge
Tyrannical is fun for me
maiden ravine
but they nerfed a bunch of the worst bosses
sweet surge
only bosses do shit to me
80% of the dungeon is a breeze
instead of CONSTANT DANGER
heavy sail
Every dungeon boss being a DPS check to time the key sucks though
Especially on DoS
heavy sail
Tyrannical on any other dungeon is more of a minor annoyance
But I’ll just avoid DoS completely during tyrannical weeks
sweet surge
funnily enough, due to luck, DoS is the dungeon I've ran the most
undone jacinth
Sd? Nw?
heavy sail
Both nerfed
heavy sail
SD also sucks though tbf
maiden ravine
I'm so excited to try Nerfed Amarth
heavy sail
I think Dolphin meant last boss of SD but idk
maiden ravine
and you don't need to skip Narzudah anymore probably
heavy sail
NW final boss isn’t that bad
undone jacinth
I meant nw
heavy sail
Ah
undone jacinth
The danger is to the timer that’s all
sweet surge
you make up for that with ballsier pulls
undone jacinth
3rd boss can also have drama as well
sweet surge
3rd boss is the biggest joke rofl
heavy sail
There’s no boss that has mechanics that are that difficult to navigate that it’s a worry about dying tbh
sweet surge
you literally play pride w/ jav and hammer
heavy sail
It’s all about timing
sweet surge
and you 1 phase it every time, even on Tyr
undone jacinth
ur one of those everything is easy guys aren’t you
heavy sail
Actually, there is one boss that fits that description
sweet surge
Nah
sweet surge
But 3rd boss you cheese the fuck out of
maiden ravine
They nerfed Torvald too
maiden ravine
the add he spawns got an hp nerf
heavy sail
Yeah I saw he got nerfed
maiden ravine
I enjoy the Torvald fight, but I can do the dance. Apparently that's hard for people to figure out
sweet surge
outside of Castigate, it was the only source of damgur
maiden ravine
On my druid at least I can cleanse the idiots that get cursed every time
heavy sail
I enjoy the Torvald fight too, but dying is always a big risk especially during tyrannical
maiden ravine
I've told them, follow the tank please
heavy sail
So much unavoidable damage
maiden ravine
they don't get it
undone jacinth
the issue is the castigate not really the beans
but the add nerf makes castigate easier to manage
sweet surge
the biggest issue imo was Castigate overlapping with Add
heavy sail
Yup
undone jacinth
exactly
sweet surge
esp if its on a melee that can't attack the add because of Castigate
heavy sail
YUP
sweet surge
so the add AoEs for even longer
heavy sail
God so much PTSD flooding back
I’ve missed timing SD so many times from failing the heal check on torvald
heavy sail
And just having to scrap the key altogether
sweet surge
idk, I run w/ DK/monk/Fmage and we have bonkers boss damage, mb thats why bosses never felt really hard for me
undone jacinth
it’s also mega easy to dodge
maiden ravine
You'd think that
sweet surge
Just teach your DPS to follow your Mark on that boss and all is gucci
and make sure you pull it back and not tank it right where he starts
where the balls overlap
makes it so much easier
maiden ravine
I do pull it back, I tell them follow me to avoid the beams, they just stand there.
sweet surge
Well...
maiden ravine
Like, do you want -35% haste?
sweet surge
You've done allyou could 🙂
sweet surge
It's not a hard mechanic, I think it being so claustrophobic makes it easier to make mistakes though
I hate that dungeon because of my camera clipping everywhere
almost as annoying as angel freaking wings in my view on last boss Spires
heavy sail
SD is probably my favorite dungeon this expansion
heavy sail
I just enjoy it man idk
undone jacinth
was tol dagor your BFA fave
sweet surge
I don't really mind it at this point since i've done it a bazilion time cuz we get either a DoS or SD key always
but its defo the hardest dungeroni this expansion imo
maiden ravine
It's by far the most fun boss fights
valid zodiac
Holy shit I just read the nerfs on the dungeons
undone jacinth
NW is dead praise Ion
maiden ravine
Except DOS which is the new hardest key.
sweet surge
absolutely obliterated
sweet surge
????????? Muehzala?!
heavy sail
Aside from CN
undone jacinth
he’s cool
sweet surge
really?!
valid zodiac
This isn't nerf, this is pure massacre
sweet surge
that shit's so boring to me kekw
heavy sail
Yeah he’s a cool boss
maiden ravine
A deserved Massacre, I haven't done NW in like 3 weeks cause I disliked the place so much after depleting so many keys there
sweet surge
NW wasnt that bad imo
maiden ravine
oh it was.
undone jacinth
It’s hell
sweet surge
idk
why tho? you have so much power ups there
3 goliaths, 3 spears, 3 hammers, 2 orbs
maiden ravine
Your group can't instantly kill the Amarth adds? Wipe
sweet surge
and 2 shields KEKW
undone jacinth
because pugs
heavy sail
Devos is pretty cool too
valid zodiac
I never had that much issue with NW.
heavy sail
Throwing the spear
Bonus points for the trash before devos being harder than she is
maiden ravine
The adds being weaker and spawning closer to Amarth will be a very welcome change
sweet surge
but realistically, its the only challenging fight in that dung
maiden ravine
I'm still not entirely sure what the change to that trash was for.
valid zodiac
The thing I figured out with throwing spear with Devos is that while you are still gathering the orbs you need to turn and see if she's moving. Sometimes she just finished moving when you turn in the last orb so you don't need to worry if you will miss her.
sweet surge
the other 3 are much easier so you can save up on powers for him
sweet surge
just get pride and lust and 1 orb, works for us every time
heavy sail
All of DoS is pretty awesome
maiden ravine
Like did Sang actually do something weird to those 3 trash mobs?
tardy sequoia
My favorite boss fight overall is Mueh’Zala
lorewise hes cool
sweet surge
@maiden ravine not in my experience
maiden ravine
just get pride and lust and 1 orb, works for us every time
That's fine but on Tyrannical I've had groups get 3 sets of adds and we then die on the third set
valid zodiac
Out of all dungeons I fear DoS the most. Between the trash and the tight timer.
tardy sequoia
my fav is the 3rd one in HoA
undone jacinth
they might have nerfed them so you can pull them together more reliably with bolstering this week
sweet surge
@maiden ravine well that just means your DPS is low-ish
heavy sail
Oh I hate DoS from the perspective of timing a key, no question lmao
But it’s a fun dungeon
sweet surge
I always save orb as last resort
maiden ravine
I missed timing a 14 DOS by 90s cause my group got over eager on Manastorms and pushed Millhouse right as doom was about to get stunned
that hurt
sweet surge
same thing can happen with the professor in plaguefall if you overnuke him
maiden ravine
If DOS didn't drop Scale it would be a lot less liked
sweet surge
stupid that it does happen
heavy sail
Because of NW though, the maldraxxus aesthetic just wears on me
There’s too much of it
I do like ToP though
sweet surge
NW is supposed to be Kyrian aesthetic tho 😦
heavy sail
It’s maybe my 3rd favorite
sweet surge
filthy maldraxxi
maiden ravine
My main is a necrolord druid so I have a soft spot for their areas
sweet surge
ToP is my least liked key because it's so unimaginative in the way it plays out
you can't do much anything creative there
its like you're stuck in an Ikea
maiden ravine
I'm fine with that, the bosses are fun, the trash is varied enough
undone jacinth
there’s stuff you can do
sweet surge
an endless tunnel, just press W
undone jacinth
lining up prides is a little mini game
undone jacinth
you can pull adds on to kul too
undone jacinth
spires is nice
maiden ravine
Bears are pulling the first 4 trash mobs onto the boss with lust and incarn. 😄
sweet surge
wish angel bros were a lil faster but whatevs
undone jacinth
think that’s all you buddy
undone jacinth
are you implying chads look at uteruses
heavy sail
Lmao
maiden ravine
I get angry every time someone messes up the ONLY SKIP IN TOP and screws up my prideful pacing on Gorechop
sweet surge
heavy sail
I like Spires but the trash pulls go nuts man
I guess post-nerf nsm
It used to be way worse
sweet surge
only annoying thing about spires trash are the bitch angels w/ the -75% aoe aura
heavy sail
You have no idea how many pug tanks I’ve had to explain the little anima circle shit to
sweet surge
what little anime circle o_O
heavy sail
Empowers their casts if they stand in a little circle
maiden ravine
probably the one that prevents mana draining
maiden ravine
the pull that is often gets skipped
heavy sail
Like the last Goliath pull in the dungeon where he just constantly casts until he’s moved
heavy sail
Yup
undone jacinth
he’s standing in it on pull
sweet surge
didnt even know
undone jacinth
can los them at the pillar but you can also just never play that pack and live a healthy life
heavy sail
Hey I never said I was the one pulling them @undone jacinth
I’ve just had to explain it to people that do
undone jacinth
I just get on the ledge and get people to climb on my mount
if they suck
fool proof method
sweet surge
I always just invis belt there for safety
canyou actually skip w/o cage/rings etc?
by just jumping on the ledge?
heavy sail
Not the second pack I don’t believe
undone jacinth
leap on to the ledge and use mount to let people get on
sweet surge
the one that sits atop the stairs I mean
heavy sail
Not that I’m aware anyway
sweet surge
so you can skip without using anything?
undone jacinth
yeah
heavy sail
TIL
sweet surge
you leap on the ledge and then people jump on the mount? THats cool
undone jacinth
I think it’s possible to do it with just a jump and no leap but it’s so close that it’s not worth
yeah
sweet surge
i see
undone jacinth
or a Druid can stealth past and go mount form
heavy sail
I just use my handy dandy utility belt or rogue stealth usually
undone jacinth
and do the same
sweet surge
you can't mount a druid in form in M+?
heavy sail
Both of those pulls suck
sweet surge
I don't think?
sweet surge
hm
undone jacinth
it also gives aggro to whoever is riding and not the Druid
so you get aggro as tank
heavy sail
I’ll have to look this up so I can use it
sweet surge
rofl really?
undone jacinth
ya
undone jacinth
there was an insane skip you could do in shrine of the storm with it
snapping some stuff as you ran on to the tank
the thing to note is some Druid travel forms look the same as mount forms
you need to be in mount form specifically
sweet surge
aaaaaaaaaaaaaah
that explains it
cuz I tried last time but it was indoors
so he was actually in his travel form
I get it now
undone jacinth
they can’t travel form in most in door places but a lot of dungeon areas count as out doors
sweet surge
yeah he uses the bambi one
sweet surge
hence the bambi form
undone jacinth
reminds me of my old alliance healer
sad times
Gearing an alt to play alliance but no idea how I’m gonna get raid gear
heavy sail
Alliance or bust
I’ve played alliance for so long that horde just feels icky, any alt I’ve tried to make is swiftly abandoned
maiden ravine
I've been majority alliance the last two expansions. Just like Dark Irons, Gnomes, and Kul Tirans more
maiden ravine
I seem to be doing okay Alliance side right now, but it's early expansion
Haven't found the desire to play my horde chars since they're on an older server cluster
undone jacinth
yeah I switched in SL as recruitment was impossible on the biggest alliance server 😦
maiden ravine
I'm not a raider, so that doesn't bother me
I've been seeing a lot of Necrolord warriors lately, I wonder why. Probably people who just love the aesthetic
undone jacinth
I am one of the 2% of VDHs playing necrolord 😂
astral crystal
so special
orchid frigate
ah DH necrolord? now i've seen everything
i was necro on my monk at the start of the expansion. really liked it
undone jacinth
I mean is serrated really still doing that much damage?
undone jacinth
that’s not sounding amazing
maiden ravine
It's more than other soulbinds give
undone jacinth
I’ll have to test it out but I’d likely rather have the night fae or venthyr folks
maiden ravine
Given that soulbinds don't exist in a vacuum, Heirmir is to kinda balance out weaknesses in some abilities
undone jacinth
not really seeing how it’s doing that
visual drift
is it pssobile to macro ravager at my position or is the best deal i can get at cursor?
undone jacinth
you don’t want ravager at your position
maiden ravine
On the other side you have Pelagos that is relatively weak now compared to say Niya