how
#protection
uneven mason
outer solstice
melees will still die xD
lusty marsh
No
uneven mason
k
undone jacinth
tank can stop anyone getting hit
outer solstice
not if they mess up
uneven mason
like, I put down 2 markers and be like "Melee on blue, if you're not on blue chances are you'll die"
outer solstice
and stand where they are not supposed to be standingh
lusty marsh
Oh wait we did Nik first then strav then frieda.
undone jacinth
it is so hard to mess up if the tank is awake
modern brook
Breaking news: Melee dps have no intelligence classes
outer solstice
@modern brook nope
lusty marsh
I remember because after Nik died lunges came out like a machine gun.
outer solstice
we had a heal pally die to it
frail wyvern
We have a 'stavros line' where nobody can cross and must stand next to the boss, not behind
uneven mason
yeah lunges are 50% faster
so you swap every 3
but you don't have niks debuff to deal with
so less overall damage on tanks
outer solstice
yeah but is nik's debuff really a problem?
sick sentinel
playing melee dps is the shit life, not only do you have to avoid normal raid mechanics, but you get to have to reposition for cleave, tail swipe, and dragon breath
sweet summit
Stavros is a big dumb idiot i dobt like him
frail wyvern
We don't have to tank swap on heroic anymore, they phase at 50% and then die too fast
outer solstice
unless ppl mess up ๐
frail wyvern
Yet to try mythic though ๐
sick sentinel
you get lower frames because you are smack dab in middle of fight with all the effects going off around you, hard to tell whats going on sometime
uneven mason
TFW people have their graphics turned up higher than their PC can handle
sick sentinel
that was a real concern for players in like, cata and before i want to say
sick sentinel
too many effects and they would crash pc
frail wyvern
Dynamic spell display feels like it does nothing tbh
uneven mason
low FPS has not been an issue since they revamped the engine in WoD
outer solstice
like combatlogging
if you combatlog to a HDD it can actually cause laggs
in a big raid
uneven mason
HDD in 2021
outer solstice
yep
outer solstice
that's why I mention it, many ppl still using HDDs
uneven mason
the fact that people still have physical drives is mindboggling
outer solstice
and think it's graphics that's causing problems
uneven mason
I mean
sick sentinel
it was a really shitty thing to do, but i was paladin and i would tell everyone with aoe spells to come to AH and spam aoe, and people with bad computers would lag out, you could see them telling us to stop and then there character logs lol
outer solstice
had at least 4 guild members with that exact problem
sick sentinel
because, we didnt have super computers in 2004
outer solstice
yeah and there was no sharding in 2004
uneven mason
people also buy PCs prebuilt from DELL and then wonder why it runs like a dumpsterfire still I guess.
in 2004 WoW wasn't optimized and ran mostly CPU bound because they wanted garbage computers without beefy GPUs to ru nit
outer solstice
it's still CPU bound af
uneven mason
single threading
frail wyvern
I mean I use a hdd to play games which require no juice, ssd for anything I care about
uneven mason
if you have garbage settings yes
sick sentinel
prebuilts and basic laptops still run wow like a dumpster fire, even a brand new 400$ laptop from walmart
2020
outer solstice
1 thread + 1 assisting thread
uneven mason
the upper ranges of settings in SL zones are GPU bound
outer solstice
yeah if you look at the water and have raytracing on in ardenweald
outer solstice
but it's sooo beautiful
uneven mason
Bastion same thing the clouds make my 6800 pump
sick sentinel
real talk, it's because of quantum computing (i don't have time, google it, its really complicated) and i think its either 7nanometer or 5 nanometer dies that they are attempting to interface with
uneven mason
same performance as a 3080 half the price ?
outer solstice
not same performance as a 3080 though, maybe in WoW
sick sentinel
because they produce less heat and do more, so it's a major road stop until they work it out and release it
frail wyvern
AMD cards are alright, I would certainly take a 6800 over my 1060 6gb 
sick sentinel
legit only times i ever used amd GPU was in a prebuilt
or maybe if it was given to me
uneven mason
I was avoiding AMD for a long time
outer solstice
I used quite a lot
uneven mason
but they fixed their drivers this gen
outer solstice
but that's some while ago
uneven mason
I have had 0 problems so far
last AMD I had was a 390
and it would black screen in FO4
and WoW at least once a week
sick sentinel
up until 2016 i was using this video card
uneven mason
because they had 5 year olds in Korea programming their drivers.
but when my 980 Ti died
sick sentinel
it ran all the games i needed it to play, so it was good enough for the longest time
uneven mason
I was like hmmmmm
sick sentinel
but, yeh, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you spend 50,000$ on a gaming pc in 20 years it will be as useful as a toaster to normies.
modern brook
same performance at 4k
gaming at 4k is pretty cringe ngl
lusty marsh
Don't forget to note that those "quantum" computers need to exist in a glorified freezer and be untouched for extended periods of time to fully ramp up.
outer solstice
why though @modern brook ?
uneven mason
It is, I generally run on a 1440 144hz because I prefer the FPS to the "pretty upscaling"
outer solstice
you can turn off a lot of AA if you play in 4k
uneven mason
I still see jaggies
quick pecan
I donโt even run AA in 1440p. Itโs barely noticeable with a large impact on fps
lusty marsh
But do you get the buttery sweet refresh rate on a 4k monitor without spending an arm and a leg.
sick sentinel
4k and 8k and high refresh is best for cinematic/casual gaming, primarily shooter games or RPG i would say NGL
modern brook
4k and 8k and high refresh is best for cinematic/casual gaming, primarily shoote...
this basically
outer solstice
also as I have native 4k screens for work it's easier to use them for borderless WoW instead of fullscreen at 1440p ๐
lusty marsh
^
outer solstice
oh well 60 hz 4k monitors are 100% fine for WoW
frail wyvern
Going 4k right now is not worth it, the upgraded monitors is too expensive and the gfx cards aren't quite at a point to do it really well, maybe next gen
lusty marsh
I still only have 1 1440 144
outer solstice
we have a lot of demand for clear visuals and text
modern brook
oh well 60 hz 4k monitors are 100% fine for WoW
its wow put that shit on a crt
it doesnt matter
like either a) the game has no need to be in 4k
outer solstice
it does with all the timers and text and names we have to read on the fly
sick sentinel
if you are gunna buy a 4k 144hz monitor why not just get a 120hz 8k tv, going to cost about the same really
modern brook
or b) its too expensive
sick sentinel
your talking like 5-20 grand at that point
outer solstice
I really enjoy it in 4k, the text makes a big difference
uneven mason
if you are gunna buy a 4k 144hz monitor why not just get a 120hz 8k tv, going to...
because TVs have garbage for response time
lusty marsh
You could still buy it for the living room.
Probably the better investment at the cost.
outer solstice
I would not play WoW on a large screen though
modern brook
because TVs have garbage for response time
some monitors have garbage response times though
frail wyvern
At that point I would rather pay off my mortgage ๐
modern brook
its just the post processor on the machine
outer solstice
I use 27'' 4k monitors xD they are nearly too big for me
lusty marsh
What kind of argument is that bullfango
steady spruce
Is the ilvl > All still true for Neck and rings? Specially for hast ring
outer solstice
yes
modern brook
Im just saying if you want a tv without garbage response time, buy one without garbage response time
Its not like they dont exist
lusty marsh
They do exist but we call them monitors :p
sick sentinel
there is a 207 haste versa neck you can buy or get as a world drop if you are lucky like me
outer solstice
yeah but they are waaay too big
modern brook
Is the ilvl > All still true for Neck and rings? Specially for hast ring
its less true for neck and rings
sick sentinel
haste versa necks don't drop from m+ at all
undone jacinth
Is the ilvl > All still true for Neck and rings? Specially for hast ring
You can drop a bit of ilvl for some haste if you want but its easier just to equip ilvl
modern brook
But you can fudge your jewlery to flesh out your stat spread a bit better
lusty marsh
And depends on the content you are aiming for.
I'm 14% haste and almost done with heroic.
But ITF is coming in clutch
modern brook
As an example if i had a 200 piece Haste over verse and got a 207 Mast over crit, I'd probably hold the 200 piece.
a 213 mast over crit probably wins out in my eyes
lots more that goes into that decision tbh
outer solstice
@lusty marsh yeah luck with gear and alternative gear sources change a lot, ITF is always clutch, even if you sit at 30% already
mighty cairn
Would people take the 220 Stone Legion Heraldry trinket if you already have a 203 Anima Field Emitter and 207 Sanguine Vintage? Other option is 220 Haste/Vers cloak replacing 213 Haste/Mastery cloak
outer solstice
yes
lusty marsh
Yeah, I guess I should add that I'm 212 ilvl
outer solstice
though I would take the cloak
lusty marsh
That probably changes the picture
outer solstice
because my cloak sucks
mighty cairn
it's hard for me to evaluate how good the stats/vers from heraldry are
maybe it's better for m+ since I never have time to stand in the anima field while kiting
currently 212 ilvl also
modern brook
Take the trinket because your other option gets replaced by downing M shriekwing
If we're being honest
having access to heraldry is better than getting a cloak you'll remove in a weeks time
outer solstice
well you can also take the trinket from shriek ๐
modern brook
๐ช
lusty marsh
Oh yeah that's our plan for heroic Denny. Spend an hour on him and then do 2 hours of mythic prog :p
modern brook
First 3 M are a lot easier than H denathrius
frail wyvern
1 hour for first kill?
outer solstice
yeah
modern brook
probably surprising no one tbh
mighty cairn
yeah we only recently cleared H Sire last week after ~2 weeks of pulls
lusty marsh
1 hour time limit, we don't expect to kill him our first week of prog
outer solstice
we haven't killed him yet with the guild I pugged sire...
modern brook
1 hour time limit, we don't expect to kill him our first week of prog
theres enough changes in all 3 phases that its worth giving him a dedicated night
frail wyvern
We have killed him 3 times, I think this week took 3 attempts but progress was 40 pulls or something
mighty cairn
once you have phase 1 and 2 on autopilot and can consistently see phase 3 mechs the fight becomes smoother
lusty marsh
Yeah, but the focus is more on gearing than getting aotc
outer solstice
yeah especially the tanks have to see the phase 3 for the positioning
modern brook
like 16 pulls are just forfiet while you wait for DPS to get learn the fight
outer solstice
and the raid has to adjust
modern brook
Yeah, but the focus is more on gearing than getting aotc
then just go to Mythic lol
lusty marsh
Did I not say that was the plan?
outer solstice
I thought you wanted to waste an hour at denathrius
lusty marsh
Oh we do, I don't think it's a waste but I see your point now
frail wyvern
In 1h you will learn how to place the lines for soak in p1 ๐
lusty marsh
You say to forgo him at all or give him a whole night
modern brook
In 1h you will learn how to place the lines for soak in p1 ๐
we're 3 nights in and still working on that ๐
undone jacinth
we just have one guy who dies every time even on reclears
undone jacinth
Iโm talking p1, he stands in the lines when they cross or he stands in the actual circle
modern brook
bonus points if he gets mad noones soaking with him
undone jacinth
heโs just a player that finds a way to die to every mechanic, he died helping alts in normal on most bosses lol
frail wyvern
Best is when people wiggle their char as it goes off and the soakers get missed
lusty marsh
Maybe I should go look at the heroic changes.
undone jacinth
for what
lusty marsh
Denny
outer solstice
like 1 per phase
undone jacinth
oh lord yea itโs a very different world
lusty marsh
I was expecting to be stuck on council.
outer solstice
but yeah going into denathrius unprepared is doom
lusty marsh
But Frieda last was a game changer
outer solstice
also he hits like a truck
if you also have the sword and have to move throught he mirror
ocean bloom
Wait whats the p2 change havnt done normal Dennys since week1 of raid
outer solstice
oof
if you kill an add
.... there comes a red pool under everyone
that knocks back
modern brook
Wait whats the p2 change havnt done normal Dennys since week1 of raid
you have to use the mirror and the pool under people on add death
outer solstice
(and often off the plattform)
undone jacinth
heโs asking whatโs not in normal
ocean bloom
Ah knock back pools suuuuuck
outer solstice
yeah but you can control it
as they spawn when the adds die
so you don't want any add die die just ebfore mirror
modern brook
honestly
outer solstice
or they spawn undodgeable
modern brook
That entire fight devolves into dont stand in things
and then in p3 its stand in things
modern brook
and also don't fall off
you cant fall off if ur not standing in things though
outer solstice
and noone die
ocean bloom
Yeah ours just tend to die during massacre or wracking pain so I'm trying to keep boss semi still then boom 10 puddles near me and its an oh shit moment
outer solstice
and pump
undone jacinth
itโs honestly an amazing fight because itโs just straight up about players learning every phase, no crazy unpredictability or need for raid leader to babysit them
outer solstice
shattering pain ๐
frail wyvern
Massacre/pools overlap is death
ocean bloom
Or pools into hand
outer solstice
be NF shrug
lusty marsh
Does massacre speed up in heroic?
ocean bloom
Denny is just a different breed for a HC boss lol
outer solstice
I'd say he would've passed as a non-final myhtic boss
easily
also the tuning of P3 on healing requirement is quite strong
ocean bloom
I like it tho
undone jacinth
once you learn it, it actually feels easy which is the weird thing, like itโs hard to remember finding it hard because itโs so rewarding to learn it
outer solstice
yeah it's just frustrating
ocean bloom
Its a very engaging fi ht
frail wyvern
Good piece of advice i would give to a tank starting hc donny...when you go through the mirror, spin back to face it immediately so he doesn't chunk your butt
mighty cairn
hand of destruction unavoidable damage in p3 slaps
outer solstice
hand of destruction unavoidable damage in p3 slaps
especially if we don't put him at the edge in time
ocean bloom
Also be ready for healers to be slow on mirror transition healing
uneven mason
Also be ready for healers to be slow on mirror transition healing
Big this
outer solstice
yeah finger on Health stone, and CD up every time
lusty marsh
Trust, I already worry about Denny and his improper touching.
outer solstice
oh yeah he touchy from the bacc
uneven mason
mirrior is the perfect time to use a vintage
remember whne you go through mirror to SR up
since he'll TP
and you can reflect
outer solstice
*deflect
uneven mason
yes, deflect
lusty marsh
I didn't know that was a spell attack.
lusty marsh
Figured it was a normal melee
outer solstice
yeah
lusty marsh
Oh
ocean bloom
Wow I didn't realize that either
outer solstice
there are quite a few melee-looking abilities in SL that are magic
uneven mason
since chances are the douche will hit you in the back no matter what way you're facing after the jump
outer solstice
like the sycthe on theater of pain final boss
modern brook
like the sycthe on theater of pain final boss
thats reflect and is actually op
outer solstice
yeah
uneven mason
like the sycthe on theater of pain final boss
DPS'd a TOP and saw a bear take that scyth
big cringe
lusty marsh
Someone said they cleave 1 melee and 1 ranges add with hand of destruction? But the range seems too short on normal.
mighty cairn
that's honestly the most satisfying part of tanking that dungeon
lusty marsh
Is it increased?
mighty cairn
the hallway with the chain ghosts makes me want to die
outer solstice
@lusty marsh you can't hit the adds with hand of destruction I think
modern brook
the hallway with the chain ghosts makes me want to die
thats cause DPS dont pop cds there for whatever reason
outer solstice
we hit both melee adds and 1 range add with first wrackign pain though
and the 4th add (2nd range add) we leave alone
lusty marsh
Oh wracking pain not hand.
mighty cairn
yeah we did the same
outer solstice
yeah, I'd say there is no need
modern brook
Like that hallway is ezfreezy you just grab everything LoS -> combust + convoke
outer solstice
we had to dmg stop anyway
modern brook
cycle aoe cc
mighty cairn
are people just grabbing half the hallway and going back to the original room
outer solstice
cycle aoe cc
just NF AA 12 seconds no cast zone
lusty marsh
Yeah I split ghost hallway into 2 and pull to los.
outer solstice
yeah half back
mighty cairn
kk yeah i see DH's grab the whole thing
lusty marsh
Darkness op
outer solstice
if you pull everything
we have no problem getting through, but the slow cast is random
we have a new tank.... he had some aggro problems xD was funny on shriek M...
he didn#t use pots... at all
and I wonder why I overnuke with autohits xD
modern brook
I ahvent raid tanked in a while
frail wyvern
Tbh thats much more than a pots issue
lusty marsh
I am so happy prepot is dead
uneven mason
kk yeah i see DH's grab the whole thing
Because DHs excell at 1 thing - running away
modern brook
but i remember being told to hold dps so my cotank can hold aggro
outer solstice
@frail wyvern also gear, and me pumping maybe
modern brook
and it was the most wtf moment of my life
Why is it "do less damage" and not "maybe do more damage?"
outer solstice
I suggested our hunters cycle MDs on him xD
frail wyvern
What class is he?
outer solstice
DK ::P
modern brook
oof
lusty marsh
That sounds like a gear or rotation issue.
modern brook
poor guy
outer solstice
That sounds like a gear or rotation issue.
gear
outer solstice
our last tank did not prepare at all and was unable to place cleaninsg pains on denathrius
lusty marsh
The gear difference for that to happen has to be huge though
outer solstice
so she was "gone"
tropic sorrel
im using shield wall lego, the wall rank 4, and today i forged thunder clap legendary
outer solstice
I don't like the thunderlords ^^
lusty marsh
I finished my r4 unhinged this week.
tropic sorrel
but why people not using thunder clap leggo with talents to upgrade them, like anger and the other one
frail wyvern
our last tank did not prepare at all and was unable to place cleaninsg pains on ...
As in, couldn't stand with her back facing a wall?
modern brook
but why people not using thunder clap leggo with talents to upgrade them, like a...
dont think of it as a Tclap leggo
its a demoshout leggo
outer solstice
@frail wyvern yeah she actually turned towards mid and such shit
modern brook
Tclap sucks
mighty cairn
I made r1 Leaper a few weeks ago and it's such a huge quality of life improvement
outer solstice
leaper is an RBG troll legendary
mighty cairn
for fast m0 carries, world movement, torghast, etc lol
lusty marsh
Rbg "core" legendary
tropic sorrel
so the wall still better to mplus too?
uneven mason
but why people not using thunder clap leggo with talents to upgrade them, like a...
Because even with UF (BTW UF has anti synergy with AM) TC still hits like a floppy noodle and its more productive to use those GCDs on SS and revenges
modern brook
so the wall still better to mplus too?
Wall and Tlords are interchangeable in m+
outer solstice
yeah it's mostly down to preference
uneven mason
leaper is an RBG troll legendary
Best Lego for RBGs
outer solstice
wall is a tad more defensive, Tlords a tad more offensive
outer solstice
@uneven mason I'd say unhinged still better
mighty cairn
are people still running Kleia this week or is Pelagos mastery stuff too good
uneven mason
You've obviously never captured a flag in 15 seconds
mighty cairn
i feel like the revenge buffs tclap damage conduit is so underwhelming
lusty marsh
The fact that unhinged works with sweeping and sharpen is insane.
modern brook
are people still running Kleia this week or is Pelagos mastery stuff too good
I dontt hink Pelagos ever dips below kleia - that said if it does happen its with the crit ITF she has at max renown
outer solstice
@uneven mason I did,.... but we have a DH-tank in our RBG team
modern brook
i feel like the revenge buffs tclap damage conduit is so underwhelming
its actual dog shit
uneven mason
Leaper on a fury warrior is so much faster
outer solstice
i feel like the revenge buffs tclap damage conduit is so underwhelming
yeah it's horrible xD the only potency I use is the covenant one
lusty marsh
Most of the time I keep that potency on double mortal strike so I don't have to re slot for pvp
uneven mason
i feel like the revenge buffs tclap damage conduit is so underwhelming
The only good potency conduit we get is the one from our covenant if we're NF or Kyrian otherwise I wish I could swap it to a finess so I'd have something that felt usful in those slots.
course fury in PVP
outer solstice
also unnerving focus, potency conduit in disguise
uneven mason
yeah UF
big ๐
I'm so jealous of the Guardian conduits
they're all insanely good
outer solstice
oh well I like stalwart,... so sad it does not affect avatar
uneven mason
and we're like "Oh boy we get like...10% More damage on our LOWEST DAMAGE AND LEAST USE ABILITY
mighty cairn
i'm gearing a guardian druid and it feels really smooth to play and tank with
frail wyvern
I just want the condemn conduit to be decent for prot
mighty cairn
the utility is really nice also
the more other tanks I play, the worse Ignore Pain feels to press
lusty marsh
"Condemn"
outer solstice
we press ignore pain?
that deals no damage
I really only use it if there's actually a need for it
lusty marsh
Yeah, no more IP. I pressed it so much on sludge last night. Was rewarded with an 80 parse.
tropic sorrel
Because even with UF (BTW UF has anti synergy with AM) TC still hits like a flop...
i got, thanks ikarikaze
uneven mason
had a bur with resto affinity literally hit their HoTW Pop into caster form and convoke was a legit major raid healing CD
lusty marsh
But I was never in danger of dying
outer solstice
Yeah, no more IP. I pressed it so much on sludge last night. Was rewarded with a...
wanna switch? our new DK could not stand on me and killed me twice xD
lusty marsh
Lol
modern brook
wanna switch? our new DK could not stand on me and killed me twice xD
social distancing tbh
outer solstice
lusty marsh
I'd consider it if you didn't mind being my secondary group :p
Cross faction raiding when.
frail wyvern
Sludge must be super boring being the offtank
uneven mason
i mean ot/mt on sludge
lusty marsh
Sludge is the same for both tanks
uneven mason
its boring
outer solstice
the most challenging thing on sludge is to nto use your CDs before first pillar
(DPS CDs)
that's why I asked for a 20 second pull timer xD
so I can use acneint aftershcok at 15
and I can't fatfinger it ๐
lusty marsh
outer solstice
oO
uneven mason
;D
lusty marsh
Just have spear up every pillar. Ez
uneven mason
Yes it does
but its the same button
because its a DPS loss to sit on them
either way
but yeah it takes discipline not to slap that big Avatar button on pull
frail wyvern
I use avatar on pull since he's already slipping below 80% on first pillar for us now (venthyr)
uneven mason
at least with AM Avatar will be up for first pillar.
but that rage from the first Aftershock
means more Revenges
outer solstice
Yeah Avatar on pull is fine with demo
But AA is not fine
I still want 15 seconds of niya buff though
Lot of mastery ^^
lusty marsh
Going over my logs and I Wtb dps who don't strand inside kaal.
outer solstice
Oof
Our raidlead is just harsh on generals
If you AoE the dot into the group
Wipe and you leave
frail wyvern
Dps who don't attack the golliath is just as bad
outer solstice
Y
frail wyvern
Don't really like that fight though
outer solstice
It get's hectic in P3 but besides that I really like it. It rewards clean positioning
And comms
frail wyvern
P3 is the most exciting bit!
lusty marsh
H barely changes the mechanics, and is somehow no longer brain dead like N
I hate my phone keyboard
frail wyvern
Me and cotank had no idea what was going on when we first did it on normal, and it died np
Its really undertuned
outer solstice
yeah nhc is undertuned af
but hc seems fine
a bit undertuned compared to denathrius though
strong forum
Hc dena is quite overtuned to the rest you mean
frail wyvern
I dont mind the tuning on it, although I probably wouldn't say that if I had been trying to kill him on week 1
strong forum
Anything that you can't outright pug with average people in hc is overtuned
strong forum
Na that's my take on HC
rancid ember
If you want to say that about normal sure, Heroic though?
rancid ember
That's like the Rich saying they don't believe poverty exists because they havent experienced it XD
strong forum
But dena, that takes some cherry picking
rancid ember
That's like the Rich saying they don't believe poverty exists because they havent experienced it XD
frail wyvern
It feeds into the new gearing logic that making full hc unpuggable stops people getting the high quality items from him
rancid ember
Outright pugging and should be easier seem like a far stretch. Maybe just my perception but I don't think Heroic should be "outright puggable" a few bosses sure but no reason Denathrius should fit that ticket.
uneven mason
the gear curve
strong forum
And with week 2/3 he should flop due to gear increase
uneven mason
7 weeks into BFA you had Titan forged LFR slappers with mythic riad ilvl gear
strong forum
Exactly my point
uneven mason
This Xpac, its like, they want content to last longer for hte majority of people ;P
uneven mason
I'm just pissed I lost like, 5 weeks due to having to reform the entire guild because of poor leadership
strong forum
Sounds like my guild
uneven mason
My GM was literally chasing people off, we lost 11 raiders in 3 weeks
0 communication except ot just be an ass about how LOW DPS was wiping us.
Turns out it was garbage strats and 0 communication
managed to get most of those folks back in the last week and we downed the bosses with clean kills because "its about mechanics derrr"
kindred warren
Lol you think you have it bad
sour phoenix
anyone have an elvui set up i can import as a starter?
kindred warren
I just joined this shit guild thatโs 1/10 HC
And is kicking people from raid for having wrong flasks
In normal btw
Or is โfiningโ raiders for not having enchanted gear
sour phoenix
sry i commented in the wrong section ๐ didnt see the UI section ๐
modern brook
And is kicking people from raid for having wrong flasks
how do u have the wrong flask??
kindred warren
Like sure asshole, Iโm gonna really need that hearthstone enchant on bracers
BFA flask
A bit cheaper
sour phoenix
dont need too much in normal if people are decently geared.
sour phoenix
should be pushing through heroics i would imagine lol
modern brook
anyone have an elvui set up i can import as a starter?
#ui-addons-manager might be more useful, Wago.io has baselines as well
sour phoenix
^^ yeah i reposted in there ๐
kindred warren
They should be but my pug progression is better than their shit
kindred warren
I plan too i hate using the word toxic but god fuck me
modern brook
- your in a guild that has such low commitment that they need to fine people to get them to enchant
- your in a guild with the worlds shittiest management
eitherway its not worth your time just leave
kindred warren
Try hards to the next level which I could understand if you were going for 8/10 HC
Progression but like fuck me, i joined a guild so I wouldnโt have to PUG but Iโd rather just pug at this point
Which is funny cause mythic guild are not even like that
silent grove
I applied to a guild based on their guild note.
They are a bunch of cool guys looking for other cool guys to join their party guild nothing sexual though
kindred warren
As soon as I login tomorrow Iโm just /gquitting
uneven mason
Or is โfiningโ raiders for not having enchanted gear
sounds like some classic neckbeards came over to real wow
At the same time, at least being "toxic" would have been communication of some sort. We literally had a GM that would log in, and snap at people for having conversation and bitch about having to do M+ to get gear. (was one of our main tanks and still sub 200ilvl in heroic) got into a fit when the fact that the people who busted their ass for ilvl were being punished by all tradeable loot going to people with lowest ilvl.
OH yeah and took 100s of disenchantable items from people so we could have mats for enchants and then was just flat out flipping them on the AH for personal bank
bitter crest
Maybe talking would help first. If it's more important for the leaders to "fine" people than looking at logs in general you should go. If they are willing to learn, everybody can grow.
uneven mason
I mean, if they're "fining people" and are not even doing HC prog
its time for a change of scenery
literally going , hey guys, lets make sure we're all enchanted up ๐
Makesure to include the ๐
bitter crest
We don't know Killmesoftly and we don't know the guild. I can't judge by biased comments.
frail wyvern
literally going , hey guys, lets make sure we're all enchanted up ๐
Maybe they did that for weeks and had enough of people not responding, but fining is a bad way to deal with that. Just replace those players tbh
uneven mason
Yeah, that being said, enchants are not going to make or break progression
this Xpac they're hardly noticeable
flasks and pots are going to have more impact from pull to pull
frail wyvern
Sounds to me like either a new guild or one in transition from being super casual to something a bit more focused
uneven mason
yeah
outer solstice
enchants on everyone s noone can really change things
I have about 1.5 -2% dmg just from skirmish, that's about the same as oil
the sheer amount of enchants and consumeables really change it, like everyone hitting a vantus rune
sick sentinel
how do we value a socket on a piece of gear in terms of ilvl
signal plover
I arbitrarily use like 7ish ilvl for sockets on jewelry when haste isn't a factor
echo egret
Any way to get some 200+ trinkets when raid and M+ don't want to drop any ?
eternal pilot
Can anyone expand on why unstoppable force is bad with thunderlord?
rancid ember
@echo egret PVP. For some reason Blizz made PVP the best way to gear up this patch. Raiding & M+ Feel almost irrelevant beyond weekly chest unless you're doing Mythic raiding with a good guild.
echo egret
in WoW terms, "bad, "trash", "awful" just means "not optimal"
I hate pvp with passion
rancid ember
Same. I don't play PVE to get my gear from PVP. Fucking dumb.
heady plaza
Any tips for tanking +14s and up? I'm having a lot of issues staying alive on any moderately difficult trash pack. I feel like when im playing super defensive my dps drops to low 2k (im ilvl 211). I've ran groups as dps with dh and they seem to maintain 3k+ dps at 200 ilvl. Am I doing something wrong?
rancid ember
You'll learn what packs you can actively tank without putting much pressure on healer, but generally 14-15 and up most packs you run in tank for maybe 8 seconds with CD's and start kiting.
heady plaza
Thats what I try to do, but then my dps just plummets
echo egret
somehow, thank god you can't DPS while kiting ๐
strong forum
Can defo stay in longer than 8sec 
In 15s I kite like 10% of the time unless its a very specific pull
grave flume
Bolster + Wall = basically unkillable during that window
rancid ember
You're probably more geared then most, you raid Mythic ye?
heady plaza
Also packs like that one in dos after the first pack, I feel like I still die even when popping shield wall
rancid ember
Yeah that was all kiting
strong forum
But with 211 you should be omega fine in 15x
rancid ember
I capped at 11 week 1
heady plaza
Hmm are there any vods for 180 at +14. I find that unbelievable just due to the damage I take even from ranged mobs
strong forum
I did like 3-3.5k dps with 211 overall I think
uneven mason
Hmm are there any vods for 180 at +14. I find that unbelievable just due to the ...
don't be in range ๐
strong forum
I have a +12 on my YouTube where I was 179 but the vod of all my keys that week is prolly gone already from twitch
strong forum
I think rn I can hit 4k+ in my weekly keys
heady plaza
I just see dh and monks face tanking without kiting
woven trellis
hi guys, i know the ilvl king thing for protwarrior but i have a very tight choice here, i have low haste and i have to choose between a ilvl 207 haste versatily pvp chest or 213 crit mastery one
strong forum
I have +15 and +16 up on Youtube, "sense - nurfed" has stuff up to 18s on his Youtube @heady plaza
rancid ember
DH Have a strong combo right now similar to Wars in BFA which makes them feel really good on trash and it's up for literally every pull if done right
sweet summit
213
strong forum
213 teish
heady plaza
I have +15 and +16 up on Youtube, "sense - nurfed" has stuff up to 18s on his Yo...
Sweet thanks. I'll have to check them all out
woven trellis
213 teish
u guys realize tha tthe difference of strength and stamina is very low right
u sure about this
?
and im talking about a loss of 84 vesatility
strong forum
3 Str is worth about 12 stats :)
rancid ember
strong forum
Who cares about vers
rancid ember
Str does too ya
smoky sparrow
plka values versatility
woven trellis
i see
sweet summit
woven trellis
were downgrading the higher m+ warprot
strong forum
So?
sweet summit
wait what
strong forum
Gotta love the "but he's top ranked" argument
So he must do everything correct
When in reality, m+ is more about group play
smoky sparrow
i mean he must be doing something right
strong forum
And routing
smoky sparrow
not saying its 100 black or white
lofty widget
the fact that he is top ranked only means he is playing well tbh, covenants dont mean that much
strong forum
Neither do stats
All that matters is they're playing the dungeon well and coordinated
rancid ember
Some top ranked Wars are Fury/Arms players that tank M+ as a side gig also.
strong forum
Everything is borderline irrelevant
strong forum
Is possible
woven trellis
and hope to time high keys
strong forum
Yes
woven trellis
lmao
strong forum
All stats are very close together
Haste just directly increases AM uptime and rage gen
Which increases dmg output and survival gain
So it's valued highest
That's it
woven trellis
most of the worst danger we have in m+ come from magic damage which isnt negated at all by crit and mastery
woven trellis
so saying its as relevant as versatility or haste feels shortsighted to me
woven trellis
were comparing correct play with haste versa and correct play with crit mastery here, comparing correct play with crit master and wrong play with haste versa is useless
strong forum
If you disagree, it's pointless to continue this conversation
Yes so what are you arguing?
His gear isn't why he's #1 currently
woven trellis
its an addition of things
and as smart people we should consider every part of this
why am i arguing anyway u right
have a good day
strong forum
๐ ๐
You asked question what's better we answered it, you didn't like the answer and got mad
Idk
woven trellis
thats not what happened lmao but if it make u feel better for being black and white and making sophisms
thats alright
uneven mason
OMG Nom why are you trying to be so informative! (โฏยฐโกยฐ๏ผโฏ๏ธต โปโโป
smoky sparrow
is he though
rancid ember
smoky sparrow
teish is just trying to offer a discussion
jagged pier
You asked question what's better we answered it, you didn't like the answer and ...
i missed drama ๐
woven trellis
why are u arguing u clearly have @smoky sparrow
smoky sparrow
i do, my name is who i am
woven trellis
x)
smoky sparrow
like rather than be dismissive just foster an envrionment where peole can have open discussions about things
instead of being snarky
but thats my two cents
uneven mason
I Mean, the question was about if he should sacrifice ilvl to get haste
and the answer is no
especially not on chest
rancid ember
Idk, the ILVL > Stats rule exists for a reason. Secondaries are not as good in this first tier as it will be in later tiers either.
Also what lvl keys are u running Tiesh?
Teish*
uneven mason
THe survival benefits overall from gaining in armor str and stam outweigh the minor differences in stats
Since our 2ndaries are still very close together
smoky sparrow
i dont disagree
uneven mason
haste might be king, but that is going to be in equal ilvl situations
woven trellis
thats what people do when they dont have in depth information to share about their certainty, they dismiss it in place of re interrogating themself, cause it would be easier for everyone to share the in depth information, and if a precise question is brought that re interrogate the whole thing,. Like i tried to do with the consideration about how magic damage is the main issue, i think its fair to re evalue a situation where a lot of stats are going to be dead while versatility offers something. It may not be the correct move, but it feels correct to discuss it
same for haste
uneven mason
What situation are stats dead in?
woven trellis
crit mastery is pretty low usage againt magical damage
uneven mason
if you're tanking a pull you're going to be melee'd even if there is magic involved, crit is very strong in M+ both for damage and avg dmg taken.
masters buffs IP
which is our main mitigation vs magic
so does vers
woven trellis
where do u see that mastery buff IP i didnt see this info
uneven mason
atk
sweet summit
AP
jagged pier
increase AP 
jagged pier
yes
woven trellis
where is it written
sweet summit
huh?
woven trellis
i mean i believe u
sweet summit
like everything is buffed by ap
frail wyvern
(AP*3.5)*1+VERS
uneven mason
rancid ember
uneven mason
#Reading
sweet summit
how did you think it scaled? im kinda confused
rancid ember
Tbf Versa scales alot of things. AP also weird stat because it doesn't show up in your character window right?
sweet summit
aye
rancid ember
I remember at start of Shadowlands I saw the sharpening stones that give 20 AP and I was like AP is still a thing? lol
uneven mason
its the thing
its the core of everything
weapon DPS is not actually a thing anymore
its just a tooltip to display the AP value of your weapon
frail wyvern
Does AP increase from mastery get hit by secondary DR?
uneven mason
"post calculatin"
yes, since DR affects the scaling of the stat itself
mastery is goofy though
smoky sparrow
at the end of the day u take an ilvl upgrade over secondary stats
uneven mason
since it varies wildly per spec.
smoky sparrow
unless its rings or neck
uneven mason
at the end of the day u take an ilvl upgrade over secondary stats
Yes, but don't just fall back on that, you're being too toxic.
smoky sparrow
yeah true
woven trellis
lmao
smoky sparrow
i forgot anything can be toxic these days
woven trellis
for real tho,
when someone ask and is interesting by understand a reasoning and causes and consequences
answerting this person with the conclusion only
isnt very respectful
frail wyvern
Next tier is just going to be DR fest as gear scales up do you think?
smoky sparrow
lets be real we're all just echoing everything we find on icy veins anyways lul
frail wyvern
I thought the whole icy veins guide was 'just go for ilvl'
smoky sparrow
yeah pretty much
frail wyvern
Would make his job easier to have a 1 line info page ๐
smoky sparrow
lets be real tho we take ilvl to flex
jagged pier
id drop ilvl for hynmal tbh
frail wyvern
Nah, to get invited to pugs and then ruin their keys
smoky sparrow
its ok it comes full circlce
jagged pier
apprently
woven trellis
at least for once ppl explain their reasoning behind their shit opinions
its not a luxury we see oten
outer solstice
@jagged pier I actually tested and simmed hymnal vs spike
woven trellis
often
modern brook
SMH you really came to a discord server to get an intro to statistics course?
Ilvl wins because more stats are better
outer solstice
statistics ewww
modern brook
its that simple
eternal pilot
and we're back to the start of it all
outer solstice
more liek strength OP
modern brook
Also Str is really strong rn
jagged pier
<@!179993058186625025> I actually tested and simmed hymnal vs spike
dont have a spike abd hynmals doing like 200k a dungeons for me
at 161
ionic fern
I thought the whole icy veins guide was 'just go for ilvl'
There's more info than that on the page if people bother reading. ๐
For example the nice :
About mastery.
outer solstice
Mwahi is just amazing โค๏ธ
sweet summit
mwahi whats the formula for ap
rancid ember
modern brook
spike actually won
Spike sims high too, remember that
frail wyvern
Haha I was kidding, love your guides really
modern brook
cause it doesnt account for not always getting the overheal damage
outer solstice
@modern brook actualyl tested it
outer solstice
y
modern brook
yeah 55 ilvls would do that tbh
outer solstice
yep
uneven mason
lets be real we're all just echoing everything we find on icy veins anyways lul
I mean, if they're going to put the work in, I've always lived by the "ilvl > all" when tanking anyway
I'm too lazy to try and minmax stats, I'm an old man now
smoky sparrow
i mean yeah, to each their own lol, its not like wow is super complex
uneven mason
Everything only TRUELY matters when you are at the fringes of gameplay
the top 0.1%
smoky sparrow
exactly
uneven mason
You can do any content with garbage talents
its just going to feel akward
and be more difficult in the extreme situations
modern brook
imagine bfa prot without AM
smoky sparrow
as opposed to what, vomiktting in discord?
uneven mason
did that too
frail wyvern
Imagine bfa prot getting broken so hard
modern brook
SL prot >bfa prot tbh
modern brook
I mean tanks suck rn in general
sick sentinel
vision of perfection that can reandomly grant you avatar which instantly gives you IP
uneven mason
and hit like a tactical nuke
modern brook
but the broadstrokes of the gameplay are much better
sick sentinel
yeah, what was wrong with tht again?
uneven mason
"Oh but IP is on the GCD so it feels bad, and smoothbrains can't manage resources"
But I can do 100,000 DPS in M+
I felt it was a fair trade.
frail wyvern
I mean tanks suck rn in general
Probably tanks made intentionally worse, easier to fuck up etc, with DH being the outlier
uneven mason
DH is just as easy to fuck up
modern brook
^
ionic fern
mwahi whats the formula for ap
For the general ability damage or just attack power?
https://www.wowhead.com/news=281913/battle-for-azeroth-new-formula-for-calculating-ability-damage
silent grove
idk man we three man'd a ToP normal the other day
DH tanks stayed alive
i was constantly going down
outer solstice
ToP normal? leveling?
uneven mason
DH is made out of wet cardboard outside of their CDs, which is why they're kings of the kite
outer solstice
during leveling things are not level even remotely
modern brook
- Idt a 3 man normal dungeon is a good metric for viability of a class
silent grove
DH bros just wanted to try it
modern brook
- they have self healing
outer solstice
@uneven mason wet cardboard box with a powerful laser inside
silent grove
no it literally is the only metric because i have spoken
sweet summit
just attack power
uneven mason
Its a aerosol for VDH
silent grove
i know you guys have been playing longer than me
but let me explain why you're all wrong lol
frail wyvern
I see DH tanks getting nerfed as more likely than warrs getting buffed tbh
silent grove
no u
uneven mason
I see DH tanks getting nerfed as more likely than warrs getting buffed tbh
neither
frail wyvern
DH dmg intake is way lower than other tanks
uneven mason
as we see the gearing curve rise warriors will go higher in keys due to actually being able to tank without kiting.
sick sentinel
i just run across so many angry angry DH players or they are just incredibly dumb
uneven mason
The big thing VDH can do is nearly all of their DPS at range
or they can hit meta every (minute?)
modern brook
or they can hit meta every (minute?)
demonic puts it at a 45 i think
uneven mason
yeah
uneven mason
thought so!
modern brook
i think fel dev was 45 when it was a talent?
idk i havent touched vengence since legion
uneven mason
So tha short window they can burst up on trash, then leap out and use sigil and decree to maintain aggro/dmg
its really the DMG that sets them apart, we're sadly, the only tank who has to pick between Defense/offense
I suppose bears too
frail wyvern
they take less dmg from dots/bleeds too
sick sentinel
i know they wont, but in 9.1 or beyond i'd love to see them add shield spikes back, crafted or drop or even temporary 2hr things
uneven mason
yes burs are fun
frail wyvern
look at DH and warr dmg per tick on remornia's dot
sick sentinel
how to play bear, swipe swipe swipe
outer solstice
- cat/owlweaving
frail wyvern
shield spikes would be very nice
rancid ember
DH is pretty good at face tanking too. The uptime on Fiery Brand is pretty insane right now.
sick sentinel
i don't think i would ever want to play druid
outer solstice
shield spikes would be very nice
or just our legendary shield ability ๐
rancid ember
It's up literally every pack for M+ and in Raiding it's up basically everytime you taunt
modern brook
the problem with bear is that they have 4 paw abilities
modern brook
DH is pretty good at face tanking too. The uptime on Fiery Brand is pretty insan...
its an irrelevent boon though
Like regardless of DHs ability to face tank, they're the tank of choice because they can generate snap aggro and hold it at range
frail wyvern
in M+ yes, but there are different reasons why they are meta in raiding too
outer solstice
what I don't like is that many of the community try to project the Dh power onto raids as well
@frail wyvern because DPS DHs suck and ppl want the +4% magic dmg?
modern brook
^
rancid ember
? What you mean Fiery Brand build is a huge reason they're doing so well right now.
spiral wave
^ isnt that the only reason
frail wyvern
That is 1 reason yes
outer solstice
well... they need it
modern brook
I cant recall the last time i faught hungering destroyer in a key but ๐คทโโ๏ธ
rancid ember
It's up every pack in a key and goes on evey mob and lasts 15~ seconds on each.
Idk if you know DH but it's pretty OP right now in M+ ๐
modern brook
Aight
rancid ember
Fiery brand build not DH specifically we all know that
rancid ember
I need to log M+ keys
sick sentinel
i can't do DH now too, because im a rager and i don't want to be one of those stereotypical idoit DH
frail wyvern
'WTF U KNOW HOW TO KICK?!' - Yogi 2021
outer solstice
sick sentinel
probably something i said already
rancid ember
Fiery Brand with 213 Conduit is a 49 sec Base CD. Reduced by 4 seconds every 2 seconds /w Lego
woven trellis
wait what
spiral wave
seems pretty powerful lol
uneven mason
rancid ember
Yes lol
uneven mason
they have a 40% reduction (single target)
rancid ember
Isn't shieldwall only 30% too?
uneven mason
that spreads between other targets
rancid ember
No it spreads with a talent
ionic fern
SW is 50%
uneven mason
SW is 50%
rancid ember
Ahh 50% mb
spiral wave
ip has a chance to proc sheild wall make it happen xD
rain lava
dont have a spike abd hynmals doing like 200k a dungeons for me
could you please tell me what spike and hymnal are? is spike the trinket from hungering?
rancid ember
Did SW do 50% in BFA?
ionic fern
No.
rancid ember
Was it 30 or 40 in BFA?
woven trellis
we have shield wall like 5% of the time
lofty widget
40
modern brook
could you please tell me what spike and hymnal are? is spike the trinket from hu...
spikes the trinket from Hungering Hymnal is a trinket froma world quest
frail wyvern
ip has a chance to proc sheild wall make it happen xD
anima powers in raid pls?
sick sentinel
shield wall is the i press it and don't die for 8 seconds button
uneven mason
we have shield wall like 5% of the time
I Have mine down to 58second CD avg when constantly tanking
so a bit above 10%
uneven mason
the fact that we reduce physical damage by just standing there by over 50% to begin with
outer solstice
I got it to 12.6 % on huntsman though
uneven mason
is kind've big bucks
modern brook
We also have a lot less need for a consistent 40% damage reduction
sick sentinel
rally
uneven mason
The only ting that irks me about Prot warriors still, is that they gutted our DPS, and we're still the only tank who has to make a choice between Offensive/Defensive spending
sick sentinel
i want to add rally
uneven mason
the other tanks all do damage with their reductions
modern brook
bear
modern brook
gotta fur up fam
uneven mason
but I can't hate bear
frail wyvern
the other tanks all do damage with their reductions
go venthyr and do all your dps in 2 windows ๐
rancid ember
the fact that we reduce physical damage by just standing there by over 50% to be...
Just Physical, Fiery brand also reduces magic dmg done to em tbf
uneven mason
Thats still a defensive/offesive choice
outer solstice
for magical we have SR
especially when it's specific hits we can manage very good
uneven mason
Just Physical, Fiery brand also reduces magic dmg done to em tbf
TBF Ignore pain reduces magic by 50%
SR reduces by 20%
DS reduces by 20%
outer solstice
we have a little problem with dots
uneven mason
it just hurts my parse when I Have to pump IP for DOTs
rancid ember
So Fiery Brand can do what 3 spells of Warriors can do xd
modern brook
3 head interpretation tbh
outer solstice
@uneven mason we do, like for huntsman
uneven mason
what we can do is vs anything hitting us, and its 68%
thats without SW
but we have to pump rage into IP
which isn't a problem
outer solstice
but that makes no dmg
outer solstice
uneven mason
I'll just make it a healer problem
outer solstice
hit revenge
uneven mason
and pump Rev
outer solstice
parse pink
uneven mason
Bolster baseline - give a talent to have anyone hitting us trigger a TC
outer solstice
I know that's abotu 15 years old xD
blazing condor
how good is Gluttonous Spike?
uneven mason
"meh"
modern brook
its a big ok