Unless it's like 3am when they don't really have much chocies
#protection
golden pollen
fallow mortar
Then let them have choices
golden pollen
'(
warm plinth
Your UI is popular to me. Even though you were not tanking the dungeon I watched 
golden pollen
My usual gaming time slot is 1am-5am due to working in night shifts, but on days off I noticed a big difference in pug groups, when people can choose between u or wait just a bit more for another class, it makes it more demoralizing unless u have high io, well known, or is connected to the right set of community
strong forum
damn ghash going ham
golden pollen
But there are always sometime a bunch of random just perform so amazing lol, pug life is weird
proud kernel
half of the ppl that look for high io have pretty low io in the first place. kinda interesting 
warm plinth
I ❤️ Deswind 
but non-tanking Deswind makes me wish there was a sad version of
golden pollen
I look for relative io to mine
Unless it's mist
Usually don't care that much on that dungeon
In bfa, I can still pug without that much issue on vdh and bdk, yet they weren't #1, and it's pre 8.3 corruption shit. This xpac just feels harder to pug
steel mauve
Most people just want a carry, its like the people making a raid in the lfg wanting an outrageously high ilvl while being 20 ilvls lower than their requirement
strong forum
cuz BDK is the 2nd most popular tank
and VDH just never got "lmao bad tank" feedback
warri gets bad feedback because it isnt popular
golden pollen
Was there ever a "bad tank" in bfa?
strong forum
yes
BDK was bad
and S1 pwar got hated a bunch just as much as pwar gets hated on rn
golden pollen
I only had time for 3toon and I couldn't even play my brm as much as I wanted in bfa lol
steel mauve
S1 pwar wasnt horrible, but the community perception was so much worse than it was at the start of shadowlands
strong forum
warri gets bad feedback because it isnt popular
and pwar isnt popular because it gets bad feedback 🙂
golden pollen
Warrior tank still my fav
strong forum
like its a perfect loop
golden pollen
I love this iteration of prot warrior too
It feels better than bfa, but yet strangely we get hated more
woven kiln
I love this iteration of prot warrior too
Fav since wrath
golden pollen
Wod was my fav cause glad was fun
steel mauve
Ya i wish i could play more, ive been enjoying shadowlands a lot more than i ever did in bfa
strong forum
didnt play pve prior to legion so i cant comment really
golden pollen
Glad isn't a tank, but the rotation /playstyle is fun
steel mauve
Glad was a weird decision, and even more weird when it was the highest dps spec
golden pollen
I know ppl say go play fury if u want high apm spec, but it's no where like playing glad
potent anvil
I ❤️ Deswind <:deswind:533073964096946176> but non-tanking Deswind makes me wish...
I need to go kyrian then I tank big
golden pollen
There just something about the design of it that makes it enjoyabke
heady plaza
is there a replacement to mdt now?
fringe badger
Glad was my favourite spec to play, but I also started in Draenor so didn't know it wasn't a thing until they removed it :(
sweet summit
just dont update mdt
heady plaza
i already did 😦
fringe badger
Wasn't there that free crybaby one?
heady plaza
hmm is that possible?
fringe badger
Yeah that one
vocal sphinx
Is there a chart somewhere that shows hiw different levels of haste affect shield block?
sweet summit
dmed you mate
fringe badger
Are we allowed to link in chat?
vocal sphinx
Feel free to pm me
heady plaza
thanks
chilly brook
@lusty grotto anything for you bb
lucid geyser
Guys, I cant decide if i want to play The Wall or Thunderlord... I love AM, but Bolster feels sooooo good, but should I even care about that when choosing a leggo?
I feel like im gimping myself running Wall but not AM + the SW conduit
sweet summit
both are good tbh
you dont need AM with the wall
sure the cdr is good, but so is bolster
trim bay
not having bolster sucks.
lucid geyser
Wall + AM + conduit brings SW to like a minute and a half, right?
ionic fern
Yes, so it can sit un-used longer.
lucid geyser
lul
ionic fern
Wasn't even making a joke.
The CD reduction does go to like a minute jeah but you will not use it that often so it's not uncommon to just see it sitting there.
lucid geyser
But can't you just use it as a Bolster-substitute?
trim bay
yea but people dont
save it for a worse case
end up having no up time at all being cautious
lucid geyser
I guess I'll give that a try
I'm a bloody casual, what do I care about a bunch of Soul Ash
Thank you guys ✌️
midnight stone
I don't envy being your healer
ionic fern
^
lavish oracle
I thought that was just common practice for most tanks? It's basically what I see most players doing
ionic fern
What is common practice? Using healer externals? Ofc, every tank uses them.
When i'm playing with a premade i call for it almost on CD. 🤷
midnight stone
In general, I don't think its smart to rely on a healer CD as a sort of "Oh shit" button - just factoring in response time, you're waiting at least 2-3s depending on Voice Comms, and the healers reaction time
lavish oracle
Yeah, pretty much. The only other oh shit button I'd need realistically is like
A healing pot
ionic fern
Idk, i need a lot of oh shit buttons with pugs. 😂
lavish oracle
And heroic leap
warm plinth
In general, no defensive, self or otherwise should be used reactively (as an "oh shit" button). You should always try to use those preemptively. Better to stop the big damage before it happens than hit it after you've been dropped to 20%.
lavish oracle
Though heroic leap is more like a "fuck it, I'm out" button 😄
ionic fern
My definition of "oh shit" right now was more like "Prideful spawned, i have no SB charges and the dum-dum DPS just pulled another pack cause he did not notice that we hit prideful".
midnight stone
Yeah, I think oh shit is just any pull that is not planned by the tank.
sonic garden
what % do you need before you go to general kaal?
fiery badge
@warm plinth I agree, every good Prot warrior I’ve watched on stream will pre-wall big pulls etc
jagged pier
^^
fiery badge
When I get “The Wall” I’m going to have wall up every minute or so, stoked
warm plinth
My definition of "oh shit" right now was more like "Prideful spawned, i have no ...
Don't worry bb, just clarifying to lurkers that they don't wanna be literally going oh shit I'm dead and hitting wall 😂
ionic fern
Eeh, it was open for interpertation so it's good to clarify. 😄
chilly brook
what % do you need before you go to general kaal?
Pull linearly just go in a straight line to the next boss and you'll have the right %
Should basically get last prideful right at the room before her
Also pro tip
Sanguine Depths before you start the key
If you have a Venthyr go out into the hall activate the lantern thing and pull everything in that wing, lust and blow everything up run back put the key in and start it
You'll have 40 seconds of 50% increased damage by the time the key starts
Actually a huge time saver
mighty valley
Then do it again when the key starts to refresh the buff
chilly brook
Can definitely double pack pull at least
mighty valley
oh, in SD - a route I was told to do was skip the 2nd devourer + tick that patrols in the little room after the first hall
then prideful will spawn in good places, you just need to pull an extra pack after the 2nd boss
is that necessary? does it work out ok if you just clear that room?
woven kiln
pre buff, then double pull at start of SD
skip the tick and big guy in the corner tunnel, you will get a pride just before boss
nimble drift
I'm convinced inerva is the hardest hitting boss
Even when you're not tanking you're taking 10k ticks
That shit is miserable. Spamming ignore pain when I'm not even tanking
woven kiln
we just wiped to her 😄
high raid dmg with 2 stacks, with the big add on you as well isn't ideal
lofty widget
which trinkets should we be aiming for for m+?
shell hare
Scale is good but doesn’t exist
lavish oracle
Scale is good, Denathrius is a decent substitute (better defensively, tbh)
mighty valley
I have such a huge collection of all the bad trinkets
stray hill
Hello fellow prot warriors :]
mighty valley
Hallo!
stray hill
Is it just me or people really skip on us prot warriors in raids ? 😄
civic rover
idk i think people now realize that you can do anything on any tank
considering darkee played prot for limit
midnight stone
That was for BS/Rally though, wasn't it?
Don't remember their raid makeup for every kill
civic rover
i believe he said "it's a better version of monk"
and also because he likes warrior more than the other tanks iirc
midnight stone
Thats fair
civic rover
i mean realistically speaking all the tanks are super duper close so we're gonna see a huge variety even in top 10
in bleeding edge keys, once groups reach a certain point i think we'll see a lot of bears. they're slept on rn.
stray hill
I'm hard stuck on finding a group to do Sludgefist on heroic and people just don't like the idea of a prot warrior even tho we can really shine in that fight
civic rover
eh, in my experience, if you're a tank, you'll get groups regardless of spec.
stray hill
well I guess I just have to wait for reset and be more appealing with ilvls :9
fringe marten
the 'new' update to MDT..did he reverse his stance on the pay for routes, or what?
or am I about to install manbaby dungeon tools?
sweet summit
youd have to either
a) pay for it
b) get the leaked code
c) download manbaby dungeon tools
tepid nest
the dog-bears in HoA really hurt
sweet summit
the bleed FUCKS
steel mauve
I really like the idea of the keystone guru website, it might be easier if you have a second monitor
patent cairn
When I pull 3+ mobs, SB or demo shout should be 1st ?
tepid nest
is SB shield block? Shield block is off the GCD so you can insta demo shout and shield block
patent cairn
Oh, I forgot about gcd
What about snapping aggro at pulls ? I often do charge, thunder, demo and revenge, but have 0 mitigation... But if I spebd rage on SB - ppl just break aggro -_-
sweet summit
ravager
patent cairn
Ravager can be on cd
Or should I rotate ravager, avatar and spear for each pull, and not waste more than 1 of those abilities on 1 pack ?
fiery badge
@chilly brook yeah I play all tanks except Brew monk. Damage intake seems smoothest on warrior and Druid. Healers like to heal me
uncut finch
Do you guys know how can I add a frontal avoidable bar ? Something to remind me to side step
chilly brook
Or should I rotate ravager, avatar and spear for each pull, and not waste more t...
Dont hold anything tbh
The CDs are low enough you should just use them
Unless the pack is about to die
chilly brook
Do you guys know how can I add a frontal avoidable bar ? Something to remind me ...
Wdym
mighty valley
uhhhhh. put a sticky note on your monitor. "don't have back to anything"
uncut finch
A bar that tells me when a frontal is being casted
midnight stone
I'm assuming you want something to tell you when to move from a frontal attack
like Deadly Thrust in HoA
uncut finch
Yea
mighty valley
oh
chilly brook
Just take a mental note on what does a frontal, not all frontals are avoidable
midnight stone
DBM/Bigwigs automatically doe sthat
chilly brook
And DBM already does that
midnight stone
just put the Notification alert somewhere easily readable
midnight stone
It may not be in bigwigs, saying it did may have been a little presumptuous
uncut finch
Lol
midnight stone
I use DBM and I see the alert every time, so you may want to switch
uncut finch
Myabe download DBM and disable everything except that? Heh
midnight stone
You could do that, yeah.
chilly brook
Why
uncut finch
True
uncut finch
Yea, you are right
chilly brook
For the most part the frontals are pretty obvious though
uncut finch
They are.. its just nice to have a reminder
chilly brook
And the Deadly Thrust either hasn't hit me or it just doesnt do anything really
midnight stone
It doesn't hit hard on a tank, iirc but I always side-step it which cancels the cast
chilly brook
Sanguine Depths is a different story though
Those frontals suck ass
But they're also telegraphed hard
Fuck the gargoyle frontal
fringe marten
So yup...I'm installing manbaby dungeon tools. You know I legit want to donate to nnoggie. I even said so WAY earlier in the expansion when I installed the zen tracker for interrupts.
chilly brook
Fuck nnoggie
fringe marten
I still will; his contribution and work has been no less valuable to me, even if he's trying to 'demand' we pay him now. I've made great use of his work and tools, regardless of what he's trying to do now.
lofty widget
how do you download the new mdt btw, i cant seem to find it in the curseforge addon
desert flax
I want to run venthyr on my prot warrior, is it bad enough when compared to Kyrian that I should reconsider or should I just go for it?
round vortex
I forgot how much of a total flog Griff was after not being active in this discord for a while and being back for 5 seconds has reminded me lol
icy flax
I want to run venthyr on my prot warrior, is it bad enough when compared to Kyri...
I have been playing Venthyr prot and it's perfectly fine; I have no experience with the other covenants but Condemn's damage prevented ends up being like 15-20%of my healing throughout a dungeon which is pretty sweet. Allows you to focus on damage which is also keeping you tanky and healthy
quick wraith
how much vers do you guys aim for?
icy flax
Not a good idea to condemn while tanking large groups of mobs though
strong forum
how much vers do you guys aim for?
doesnt matter
ivory hill
yo - soul split in mists.......any tips? getting trucked for 32k in 0.0sec
ivory hill
is there a cast timer? didnt see it
warm plinth
The soulcarver thing
astral crystal
40% dmg taken debuff
warm plinth
That puts the damage taken debuff on you
strong forum
🤔
ivory hill
warm plinth
Though pretty sure it's dispellable isn't it?
jade axle
I have been playing Venthyr prot and it's perfectly fine; I have no experience w...
Is this at High keys? I dont dare condemn at all
strong forum
never noticed that
ivory hill
it hit me for 32k total, instantly, does a double hit
strong forum
what level
warm plinth
soulcleaver rather
astral crystal
you can SR it
ivory hill
on a 10
strong forum
on a 10?
heavy sail
Zygor has been monetizing an addon since forever.
strong forum
yeah nah chief
warm plinth
You never noticed soul split? Jesus
heavy sail
Blizzard hasn’t done and won’t do anything about it
strong forum
na ghash
warm plinth
Are your balls so big that you're incapable of taking damage Nome?
honest plinth
You are joking
warm plinth
Shit trucks even before the damage taken debuff lol
honest plinth
It will delete you from the game without sr
astral crystal
EU privilege
strong forum
🤔
strong forum
no im being serious
honest plinth
There are drust
honest plinth
Mobs in 1st few packs
honest plinth
They one shot you without sr or stun etc
warm plinth
idk how you don't notice it unless you're just completely skipping the trash in the first part of the dungeon XD
astral crystal
what healer do you roll with?
quaint sparrow
Doesnt matter what healer the tank has
strong forum
same class
quaint sparrow
he gets oneshotted anyhow
heavy sail
That’ll do it
quaint sparrow
u have to kite the moment they throw that shit on u even if u survive
or just constantly kite it
astral crystal
Doesnt matter what healer the tank has
in the off chance he had a pally saccing him or something
shut summit
you stun them to sync them up / SR both in 1 cast
then SW next time they use it
its like 11-12sec CD
then can SR 3rd cast
heavy sail
Me neither.
lofty thistle
Thought it was just on your healer to let you get 2 stacks then dispell ><
strong forum
pretty sure
since its the first pull
i have Bloodbarrier + Wall
up for those
and i just get dispelled
apparently i reflected 2
lofty thistle
Yeah, ill definitely try this stun and reflect idea out now.
deep steppe
quaint sparrow
lol
quaint sparrow
they sure are nasty on 15s
odd warren
So I’m trying to really decide between the monk and warrior for m plus and raids. Am I correct the warriors mitigation is not just physical damage?
strong forum
well warri has CDs to deal with magic dmg
being Spell Reflect, Demo Shout, Shield Wall and your regular defensive rage spender Ignore Pain
stray sierra
brutal vitality or fueled by violence for both m+ and raids?
strong forum
neither tbh
wheat sleet
pretty sure fueled by violence is garbo
strong forum
the SW / LS ones are better
wheat sleet
cant remember what brutal vitality does
strong forum
its the IP one
stray sierra
the ignore pain one
wheat sleet
ah
strong forum
ye
stray sierra
okie doke
strong forum
itll make you borderline immortal with Bolster during LS
paper coral
I am having trouble deciding what covenant to choose. I plan to play both dps (arms) and tank.. kyrian seems obvious for prot and venthyr seems obvious for arms. How much does it really matter? If I'm playing prot as venthyr or arms as kyrian, is the disadvantage minimal?
strong forum
prot as venthyr is gonna be quite useless in m+
venthyr is only good in raid, in m+ kyrian is good for both, in pvp kyrian is bis
paper coral
That really helps. Thanks
paper coral
Yeah condemn is great with arms but..yeah it seems like I'd be better off kyrian if I want to do both
wheat sleet
i mostly do m+ and pvp, but I don't think I could handle having to spend any extended amount of time in bastion; hurt my eyes.
also condemn animation is the true bis
wheat sleet
ITS SO BRIGHT
strong forum
lemme guess you also game only at night with all the lights shut off
wheat sleet
nah I have plenty of lights on in my room
paper coral
Haha. Of the aesthetics I like venthyr the most. Tea parties are awesome
Gear set looks cool on a tauren too
wheat sleet
It's been a bit better since I tinkered a bit with my monitor brightness but I still prefer the venthyr covenant base
what are the different soulbind abilities as kyrian anyways? Also some form of stat boosts I'm guessing?
heavy sail
I just don’t vibe with bastion at all
If necrolords was the best covenant choice I’d switch in a heartbeat
earnest sail
I still can’t fathom why Necro is bad for prot. You get a shield and a banner that seems totally what you’d want...
paper coral
Shield takes too long to cast
heavy sail
Shield takes forever to cast, doesn’t actually mitigate much
Uptime on both isn’t anywhere approaching good
earnest sail
not even good with the soulbinds?
paper coral
If it were instant..is better
heavy sail
No not good with the soulbinds
They ultimately don’t change anything much
Necro is dookie
paper coral
Kyrian is my least favorite aesthetic. Sad that venthyr is garbage for prot too
heavy sail
Venthyr is competitive if all you do is raid
oblique elm
I tanked all up to 15 as venthyr and switched now to kyrian
wheat sleet
kinda the point
steady spruce
same
oblique elm
And venthyr for bg ofc 😂😂
steady spruce
Having to play prot in M+ and Arms in raid suck
oblique elm
I did first dungeon kyrian arms never do it again
steady spruce
I'm already playing a C tier class i don't need the C tier covenant ahah
heavy sail
Kyrian is still great for arms in raid/m+
steady spruce
great but not best by far
oblique elm
Good for packs but boss fight is cringe
steady spruce
and packs are suuuch a big part of raiding 😄
heavy sail
Covenants should just be homogenous enough that it’s more of an RP/Aesthetic choice and not so closely tied to performance
Like if condemn had a tanking component that made it feel better to use
steady spruce
also i have to use Pelagos as arms in raid and Kleia for prot in M+, but i wish i could use Pelagos on both
heavy sail
But said component only applied to prot
Like if condemn had a component where it decreased the cool down of shield block by 2 seconds it would immediately feel great to use
Probably would be too strong ultimately
But still
steady spruce
hmm shield block cd isn't really troublesome, is it?
heavy sail
It kind of is
paper coral
Yes. If things were different, it could be different 😆
heavy sail
Any CDR for defensives is good
The reason why prot was so great in BfA had to do with shield block being up pretty much 100% of the time
And obviously doing huge damage
sturdy sable
And being able to rotate cooldowns pretty well
steady spruce
Is it bad to use SB when you already have SB up?
potent anvil
Not necessarily. The duration adds up. It'll be bad if you dont have block up when it matters, though.
torpid granite
anyone else having issues?
sturdy sable
Is it bad to use SB when you already have SB up?
Its better to pace your blocks so you don't "waste" uptime some bosses cast spells and when they are they don't melee if you know thats coming save the block
torpid granite
like server issues
sturdy sable
But if your tanking trash go nuts don't let them into any chinks in your armor (mitigation)
steady spruce
thx for the info
i feel like spells are the thing i have a problem with
like the soul cleave we mentioned sooner
or boss abilities that if you don't reflect them correctly you just die
last boss of ToP for example where everything is chaotic and you need to reflect the correct Scythe
and where the cast of an add can consume your reflect
or on the soul cleave you want to reflect a soul cleave but there is another add that cast spells
torpid granite
server crash for anyone?
steady spruce
nope
torpid granite
stormrage us just took a huge shit
sturdy sable
Nice finally time malf pulled that stick out
steady spruce
Sure Dosequis but i'm having a hard time paying attention to her cast when at the same time adds pop and ghost pop and you need to position the boss correctly and the room is on fire and you don't have much time to try and repeat cause it's M+
sturdy sable
You could save wall
steady spruce
Unpopular opinion but i'm glad we have tyranical to train on bosses
sturdy sable
Do you have boss timers @steady spruce
sturdy sable
Does it let you know when scythe are coming out i dont run dbm
steady spruce
it does
sturdy sable
Well ya got 3 options
steady spruce
but it's better since they nerfed the cast time
sturdy sable
Watch the timer
Save wall for when the world's on fire
Spam ignore pain and clench
Clenching is key
Should be able to cut a cigar in half
sturdy sable
Good man
steady spruce
i did a +13 mists where i discovered that maze foxes can be quite dangerous
you learn everyday i love it
mellow harbor
i feel like avatar is so useless now as prot, no mastery stats or ignore pain on cast
deft sapphire
@strong forum do you use discord light mode?
undone sun
👀
strong forum
<@!192743144276623360> do you use discord light mode?
who in their right mind does
steady spruce
he's already playing vulpera he doesn't need to be more monstrous
deft sapphire
thats what bastion looks like to these people i assume
steady spruce
do people running +20 keys or shit still get 210 ilvl loot?
what about the weekly chest?
strong forum
no difference
steady spruce
and as the expac progress what changes for M+? Do they increase ilvl at some point?
strong forum
new tier release
the ilvl gets adjusted
max weekly reward will always be mythic raid quality
end of dungeon max will always be around heroic raid quality
steady spruce
will +15 still be considered "max"?
steady spruce
ok so will get easier as we get more gear
strong forum
no
steady spruce
thanks for all the info i had no idea about that
strong forum
difficutly will also be adjusted with each patch
strong forum
🙂
lusty grotto
hmm heart of al'ar or quantum device hmm
steady spruce
i got lucky and pugged with a 4 man premade, it just feels so fucking better and i feel less bad now when people blame the tank
mellow harbor
[Blood-Spattered Scale] is the dream
lusty grotto
yeah i dont really like cheat deth trinkets
scale doesnt exist
i dont like cheat death trinkets but...
heart has saved me a couple of times
currently using heart + heroic gluttonous
spike
mellow harbor
gluttonous is complete thrash
lusty grotto
haha if you saw my other trinkets
armor kit and music
i would use cheet music in a heartbeat but...
lusty grotto
that movement shit pisses me off
mellow harbor
quantom might be better than glutt you could get that 700 vers proc
lusty grotto
i guess ill try it out on this run
steady spruce
i'm using 203 scale and 187 anima but might change anima for 203 putrefaction vial but the vial benefits is hard to evaluate
might try to get a alar to run scale + alar
what makes DH tanks so good? is it their ability to inflict damage while kitting?
strong forum
strong CDs
good utility
and cheat death
theyre just very very tanky with CDs up
but still need to kite once those run out
steady spruce
i'd like if we had more utility
we have a lot of interupts wich is good
and a lot of mobility and slow actually
hmm maybe i just need to get better groups lol
i'm tempted to craft a r3 thunderlord but afraid to regret not crafting the wall
strong forum
we have fear,shockwave,stormbolt
thats a ton of utility
DH has 0 stuns
and youll miss having a stun once you play VDH
it covers so much
its just the silence sigil makes up for alot of stuff aswell
steady spruce
i like the racial on my highmountain brewmaster
versed bough
Silence makes the mob doesnt cast anymore, Stun does not >:)
strong forum
silence makes the mob not cast for 5 seconds
but it doesnt work on all mobs
stun often works on mobs that cant be silenced, some silence works on mobs that cant be stunned
coral marsh
if you think prot is close to vdh in mythic+ you are delusional
strong forum
nobody said anything in being close
mellow patio
Petition to make sigil of misery a stun instead of a fear
mellow patio
shiet
tepid barn
When applying to m+ groups, does it show your equipped iLvl or overall iLvl?
grand drum
overall
grand drum
its always overall
undone jacinth
I mean I’ve applied when my equipped is below the queue requirements and been declined, changed items then been accepted
In BFA
through auto decline
fair enough tho
icy flax
Is this at High keys? I dont dare condemn at all
Only condemning bosses when I have rage that isn't needed on SB, thats it really but in those scenarios it shines
tepid barn
Overall? Thanks guys
desert flax
How do prot warriors compare to guardian druids for mythic raid at the moment?
I don’t play either much so I was wondering
undone jacinth
both good
both low dmg
both good vs phys
guardian probably better for magic if it’s not reflectable
Prot brings rally and battle shout which is better than anything guardian brings
craggy harness
oof, i got declined for a normal CN run because "warriors aren't good at tanks this xpac sorry buddy"
that's a new one.
undone jacinth
So knowledgable 😂
plush pagoda
little does he know world first race had a prot war
craggy harness
it's effin normal huntsman
desert flax
People really do seem way too harsh on prot warrior
paper coral
Anyone have a recommended ElvUI import for protection warriors?
pastel sleet
i get wrecked by altimor. what do?
steel mauve
oof, i got declined for a normal CN run because "warriors aren't good at tanks t...
not really new, but it is ignorant
wicked lantern
whats the replacement for Mythic Dungeon Tools?
zinc forge
Manbaby dungeon tools
final axle
How come prot warrior is listed as the worst m+ tank on icy veins? Surely its blood dk
fringe marten
anyone have link to manbaby DT?
(feels..really weird to legit ask for an addon called manbaby dungeon tools..)
final axle
Like warrior still has best or near best dps right?
jagged pier
Like warrior still has best or near best dps right?
nope
chilly brook
So
Slightly relevent
And I'm glad this showed up in my recommendeds because some of ya'll need this
jagged pier
How come prot warrior is listed as the worst m+ tank on icy veins? Surely its bl...
also it depends how you look at it prot is probably the most punishing tank to play, play it wrong you will get destroyed play it right youll be fine
rankings is also complete and utter dogshit to follow especially with how close the tank actually are in terms of tankiness, there is barely a difference
chilly brook
Eh blood dk is more punishing
chilly brook
if you think prot is close to vdh in mythic+ you are delusional
In what regards
I'd say we're definitely tankier outside of pure magic damage
Which is basically nothing tbh
steel mauve
How come prot warrior is listed as the worst m+ tank on icy veins? Surely its bl...
That list was created by a dps main who doesnt tank, take it as you will
chilly brook
DH is only as good as it is because you don't even have to get hit
Leap in do some burst kite
All day
Plus I wouldn't count on them staying so busted for AoE damage
Papa Ion doesn't like tank DPS meta apparently
earnest fox
I just started doing 10+ keys, and not having as much kite potential as some tanks, I def fill it
final axle
I'm looking through dps on keys looks like yea warriors not where it ought to be, just a scaling thing?
chilly brook
I'm looking through dps on keys looks like yea warriors not where it ought to be...
And where ought it be?
final axle
Like 1k less than pally and dh
earnest fox
Played a DH and can just pull aggro jump out wait for them to go where you are jump somewhere else
final axle
Love the playstyle on prot war, moreso than pally
chilly brook
It doesn't even matter though rn tbh
Can you hold aggro while your group pumps?
Then you're in a good spot
earnest fox
Its def doable
earnest fox
Just alot easier it seems as others
final axle
Got any logs i can check out? New to tanking in general so anything helps
earnest fox
But I love prot warrior this week tbh
chilly brook
Unfortunately not
chilly brook
I was considering recording a few keys from tonight but thought about it too late
chilly brook
Like in all honesty I rarely kited in the 12 we almost 2 chested
But I'm also popping my CDs like candy and rotating in my healers CDs to cover gaps
chilly brook
And trying to be smart with having our hunter trap some mobs to make certain pulls easier
But for the most part it's just been face tank central
Also tip if you haven't been, lust the last add before the last boss on spires this week
Or rather any fortified week
Seriously the healing check on that is just straight stupid
earnest fox
My friend I always play with is fistweaving monk, he heals alot more then average healers but, it hurts alot becuz so we usually have slip ups
chilly brook
If my group wants to do some more keys tomorrow I'll try to log or record so I can make a video and just talk over things
earnest fox
Ring of peace only goes so far with spiteful
That would be nice I've only watched one other prot clips
chilly brook
The funny thing is key wise, I've had multiple healers talk about how they don't understand the hate for prot cuz apparently they don't need to heal me nearly as much
summer finch
what sort of stats do you want for prot?
chilly brook
If you feel paper thin it's likely a play issue
your stats have little to do with your ability to stay alive
Or rather I should say are far less impactful than your play
earnest fox
^
fringe marten
NAHHHHH bro. Prot war is LITRALL garbj until you hit 29.72% haste, then..INSTA Godmode.
chilly brook
fringe marten
lol 😛
(that was sarcasm..for the possible even 1 person that might go "Wot..29% haste is DE WAY?")
earnest fox
Just watch videos of prots who are obviously better and ding better and apply the knowledge u see
I find myself bettering everyday as long as u willing to learn and accept the fuck ups u might do
chilly brook
Tbh I probably should start recording runs if for nothing else than my own benefit
earnest fox
I've still have a damn 184 hand and everything else is 200
earnest fox
I've been speaking 7 And higher all day at PF
ionic fern
If you got the class fundamentals down and still feel squishy then start looking at dps players. The difference that they can make via shortening encounters with good dps and interrupts is disgusting.
earnest fox
I feel like I'm the king of Pf now lol
fringe marten
^^ Have heard from a few sources that recording yourself helps substantially with improvement at a certain level. I think we all likely make a lot more mistakes than we think as far as things just like positioning and such.
plush pagoda
did someone say stun loyal beasts cast?
earnest fox
Also remember keys is also team work and talk with your team
chilly brook
I did it a lot when I played Siege competitively
fringe marten
Like...who here hasn't had the "WHAT THE..?? Where did those come fr..WHO pulled that?" Maybe you can dissect it and figure it out; or maybe it was you? and you didn't realize.
chilly brook
Can confirm it does help
earnest fox
Someone I run my keys with is fire mage
fringe marten
I can tell you one thing..first time I saw the proc from Lightless force? or ..whatever TF it is, I was like "ohhh man...I got a proc that's shooting out 10 feet in front of me? Do not like...what if it pulls some shiz?"
earnest fox
So I know exactly what CDs i'll need and exactly how much to pull
chilly brook
Tbh I've not had an issue with Lightless Force grabbing anything
fringe marten
I haven't seen it YET; but there's a few spots in some dungeons where I'm thinking "..maayyyybe I'll just tilt myself this way..."
chilly brook
Also as a side note pug groups give you a bad gauge of how tanky you are
On any tank
fringe marten
^^^
chilly brook
Some of these groups I've been in would make bear look paper thin
fringe marten
You might be bad, you might be good...you might not be fluid with your keybinds/etc. But if you retune your talents, or whatever..and then think "hm lemme jump into a pug key group and really field test this...." You may not be the reason the world is collapsing on your head~
chilly brook
For example, Scribe casts in DOS not getting interrupted will shred any tank
fringe marten
It took me a while in raids/etc to really know that I was playing my prots kit right, and playing it well..to KNOW when it wasn't me screwing up.
plush pagoda
ive done 15s and felt like a wall and done 11s and felt like jello
fringe marten
(and also know when it IS me)
earnest fox
I did a run that's usually cake, with a disc priest from ragnoros, I def can tell u, I felt like paper
chilly brook
Lol if it's me I'm usually on the floor in half a second
fringe marten
Yeah but then you think "ah..disc sucks..everyone says it does right now" NOT true. One of the highest rated guys in my friends list, has been a disc priest since legion. Trust me he'll change your mind on disc.
So, it's that player~ not that class.
chilly brook
I LOVE my guilds disc priest
He gels with me so well
literally super attentive to my CDs and communicates so well
earnest fox
I mained disc at beginning of BFA and have been disappointed with the discs I've seen so far
tawny vessel
is it worth gaining 6 item levels but giving up almost 2% haste :S
chilly brook
yes
tawny vessel
its a chest
chilly brook
fringe marten
...breh
jagged pier
then its yes
tawny vessel
roger
fringe marten
and 2% haste...is...whatev~ once your itemization gets decent you're going to approach the 30% softcap (softcap is for gear stats ONLY; not accounting for buff haste like..talents/etc)
earnest fox
One thing that feels amazing though is being the "underdog" tank and doing better then the other tanks out there
jagged pier
and 2% haste...is...whatev~ once your itemization gets decent you're going to ...
106% is softcap not 30
fringe marten
Let me rephrase, diminshing returns curve.
undone sun
i think they mean the stat DR, but still not something to really worry about
fringe marten
ALL stats in SL except mastery hit a heavy DR curve at 30%
chilly brook
Timing 12s/13s without an issue with low haste tbh
chilly brook
ilvl is king
steady fiber
Idk, i hardly time 10th with pugs, sometime it's impossible to time 7th 😄
jagged pier
lower than 15 is consider low
undone sun
0% is low
chilly brook
It's impossible to time 10s with pugs in general rn tbh
undone sun
1% is not
steady fiber
and what is like haste cap ?
undone sun
jagged pier
166%
earnest fox
I did a 10 SOA today pug
fringe marten
I guess I got lucky with itemization then..? In raid (raid..where I run ITTF) with my Anima field emitter proc'd, I'm almost 40% haste
steady fiber
i mean like soft cap for gearing to consider
undone sun
they know what you meant
earnest fox
Warlock DC'd multiple times
chilly brook
There IS none
fringe marten
my base haste with gear only is 24%? I believe in keys
earnest fox
It hurt my soul
steady fiber
it hurts my soul when pugs dont kick casts
chilly brook
Haste remains the top defensive stat on same ilvl gear regardless of your haste %
steady fiber
and goes why did we wipe hmm
earnest fox
We were in line to 2 chest and failed, he blamed the server
fringe marten
No; understanding that there is a diminishing returns curve can matter to optimizing your gear IF you have the luxury/equipment to mess with.
jagged pier
i didnt time a SD 9 yesterday and got flames by the mage in the group that did 2.5K dps overall where i had done 3.1k and lived through all the missed casts 🤷 pugging is pugging
chilly brook
Tbh there are a lot of people in my own guild I won't run with
M+ this season asks a lot more of individuals than in a LONG time
earnest fox
U know what I love seeing, when my rogue or warrior kicked/pummeled once entire pull
steady fiber
it's more mechanic related i could say
can't go zerg mode 😄
unless healer is jesus and somehow can manage to heal all dat shit
fringe marten
We're in the first tier of equipment and i'm approaching 25% haste without a single buff or proc of anything.. we're going to be well passed shadow lands DR curve in the next tier. So just mong stacking haste may not be a great idea come next tier; Not saying haste is bad, saying people should know about that stat mechanic. (it's not exactly made crystal clear anywhere in wow)
earnest fox
I busting out every cc so they don't take unnecessary damage and they not even interrupting
chilly brook
We're in the first tier of equipment and i'm approaching 25% haste without a sin...
Pretty sure Nom and Mwahi have stated that you will continue to stack haste as the DR is very minor
steady fiber
i love when i write peeps why no interrupt, and they go we all did, but weakaura says nop 😄
same with details kicks
earnest fox
First boss in PF and big slime doesnt get incapped or cc at all, mmmmmm
golden pollen
The worst one issue spell reflect is up but someone Interrupt
fringe marten
Speaking of details: legit the first pull in a key I did with some guildies earlier...I literally didn't show up on the details meter. for anyone in group..wasn't just me.
anyone had that happen?
was sanguine depths, pulled first 2 packs into the anima cage...was a long pull and dps seemed low, so afterward I look at details and say "MAN only 3 people on meter no wonder...oh WHAT? I'm the one missing.."
and the rest of group had me not show up on details either; of course I"m doing damage/holding threat, so ..literally wtf happened?
fringe marten
obviously it is; but it's the kind of bug I always worry about.
golden pollen
I can't seem to find that option
fringe marten
Meaning.. We base SO much of how we percieve the game through the tools the community makes.
What happens when those tools don't work right? when details is wrong/etc? (I know it's pretty accurate most of the time; but when I see an obvious bug like that it makes me scratch my head)
chilly brook
Thing break it doesn't mean you throw out everything regarding it or that everything it has ever spit out is wrong
fringe marten
I'm not going to; obviously it's still installed and I use it.
chilly brook
But I understand what you're saying
fringe marten
Honestly so much of the community bias, and toxicity in the game comes explicitly from damage meters.
chilly brook
Eh
fringe marten
If you want to see proof of that; go play Final Fantasy XIV. (Yes there are damage meters, but most of the community doesn't use them..because they don't know how; and Square has an aggressive stance against them)
chilly brook
This is just the io/ilvl/why don't I get into groups argument
fringe marten
Those are the same thing; a meter.
golden pollen
Ff14 raiding community do use meter tho, especially for dark knighta
If u can't stance dance and weave ur dmg in
chilly brook
And the same people who complain about said things love to use said things as measurements of opportunity to increase their chances of success
golden pollen
GL getting a spot
earnest fox
Griff what legendary u run
fringe marten
I'm using all the same damn addons everyone else is...every meter, weak aura..etc. But you have no choice but to face the fact that Damage meters in mmo's introduce a substantial amount of bias and toxicity.
chilly brook
Griff what legendary u run
I'm running the wall
earnest fox
I went thunderlords
earnest fox
And I feel wall is way better option now
fringe marten
(cute guy..I know; played last expansion as bard and the first thing I did was find out how to use the damage meter. which btw was the same damage parser I used in Everquest 2 for years LOL)
earnest fox
With 10+
chilly brook
I'm using all the same damn addons everyone else is...every meter, weak aura..et...
I'm going to not want you in my group if you suck ass regardless of what tool is used to measure that
It's not a meter problem
It's literally opportunity cost
earnest fox
Yes
golden pollen
Think of those tool as a resume
If they show u do good, ur gonna look better than the guy who has shit results
chilly brook
If you're bad at your job irl you get fired
They find someone who is at least competent
earnest fox
Idc if u pull damage if u not using utility and lot of damage happens to party, i'm upset
fringe marten
Griff; yeah..it is. You're just taking an opposing side. We're all here to play well and do better; it's WHY we use those tools to measure and dissect the gameplay. But I've been playing mmo's as long as they've existed and played tons of them and I promise you DPS meters change the game communities they're a part of.
earnest fox
Like so many healers and dps think becuz they pull numbers means they don't need to mass entangle, cyclone, sooth
No particular class I'm ranting about >.>
fringe marten
I'm not saying you're wrong; you are simply stating a different angle of the issue. But to say "nah they don't change anything" is not really true.
chilly brook
Change them in that they give people to tools to tell who's licking windows easier?
The same mentality exists regardless of meters
fringe marten
Yes, that's PRECISELY what it does.
chilly brook
Meters just makes it easier to see
It's not really a meters problem
The general mentality of the players have changed in the last 20 years
earnest fox
Like great u pulled dmg but in process u let a shade whoop your warrior
chilly brook
It's also not classic where you can get away with not performing in all content
FFXIV has the same "problem" in the content that actually matters in that game
fringe marten
What you're saying is; you know exactly what's going on around you at all times, with no information or context needed? Knowing who sucks, how much they suck..and why. Is a WHOLE lot different, than having no information at all, and just knowing "something went wrong..this didn't go well"
chilly brook
Because the requirement of the content is so high that people need to perform and anything less is actively hurting the rest of the group
The game has evolved to a point where the tools were necessary
Not the other way around
fringe marten
No, they aren't.
chilly brook
Ok
fringe marten
The tools forced the developers to make the game harder, and has been flatly stated as such.
chilly brook
Ask Limit to do what they did this tier without logs, meters and weak auras
It wouldn't happen
WAs developed as a tool to help get past content because it was necesary
fringe marten
Again; you are arguing from the opposing side, I'm guessing just to argue. The development team of WoW has blatantly stated, multiple times over the years; that they've had to increase the mechanical difficulty of the game due to the tools the players were using to dissect it.
Is it the chicken first, or the egg? I never said we didn't use the tools, nor that they weren't useful. I said the tools caused an issue; which they did.
fringe marten
They exposed it, made it bare..allowed us to figure out exactly who was good, who wasn't. How to time an ability on a mob, how to avoid it precisely..etc.
chilly brook
You could always tell who it was
fringe marten
Sure..those things exist without the tools to expose them, but the exposing them and being able to manipulate them MUCH EASIER DOES cause an issue.
fringe marten
Yeah, just like you could always figure out if an employee is stealing from you..but when you get a camera you get to find out EXACTLY who the moment they do it.
It does matter.
chilly brook
Because you can just make your own group
cloud cargo
hello, can u help me with trash in m+ ? i cant find some web with showing %
chilly brook
hello, can u help me with trash in m+ ? i cant find some web with showing %
not quite sure what you're asking for
chilly brook
Sure..those things exist without the tools to expose them, but the exposing them...
Most of the toxicity in the game doesn't even come from anything based on tools or meters
Community perception of Prot in 8.0 is a perfect example
cloud cargo
I wanna simulate mythic trash for percentage or somehow
chilly brook
Baseless claims from people who play the class incorrectly and because they're talking heads in the community the playerbase rolls with it
People have 1 or 2 bad experiences and base everything off that
fringe marten
No of course not; and that was never my statement. You're just shifting the argument and moving the goal post. I guess you need to win in your head, so sure have at it.
earnest fox
I don't even see that lol, people just saying cause of tier list lol
"Icy veins says C tier"
chilly brook
No of course not; and that was never my statement. You're just shifting the arg...
It's not moving the goal posts it's using an example of how the community is "toxic" and it has nothing to do with "meters"
But ok
quick elk
How is the Lego reducing shield wall cool down in mythic +? I heard ppl could get the cool down of shield wall down to 1min. I thinking of making it to swap out on tyrannical weeks maybe .
chilly brook
It's good
You can indeed get it to ~1min
Have a few ~4ish minute fights with 3 casts
quick elk
so worth switching out thunderlord you think? it feels like the burst threat and dmg from boomng voice ravager is very very nice
chilly brook
quick elk
and would have to loose ravager and bolster to have short shield walls
chilly brook
I could get more casts in for sure
Eh
So
TL is really good in M+
The Wall is also good
Not sure how worth it would be realistically
And btw I run Bolster with The Wall in M+
chilly brook
Not sure but it's up pretty often
quick elk
ill play it safe and just go for rank 1s, its just gold im missing out on. thanks for the feedback dude
jagged pier
and would have to loose ravager and bolster to have short shield walls
I run both this the wall
chilly brook
80 casts of shield slam in this 4 minute 46 second fight
Which is 6.6 minutes of shield slam CD reduction
So like every 2ish minutes you'd have shield wall
Without AM
Super napkin mathy
but hey
elder sage
Everyone tells me Never Surrender Talent is bad and I don't understand why 😫 I must be misunderstanding how it works?
ionic fern
Probably.
It just increases the maximum value of IP.
It still absorbs 50% of the hit.
elder sage
I was trying to tank normal castle nathria at low ilvl and I'd get hit by the Huntsman's shoot for 24k without IP, and with IP 19k or so
is it just nbd to keep IP up with appropriate gear?
cinder nova
It's also a talent that gets better as you die, meaning you get no value from good tanking.
ionic fern
You should be using Shield Block as your primary mitigation tool.
elder sage
well its 40% even at full hp, and your health will generally be around 70% ish on average, no?
cinder nova
Blocking it will fix that problem.
ionic fern
40% what? It's not good.
Shield Block is your primary mitigation tool.
jagged pier
what counts as low ilvl for CN normal?
elder sage
theres a gap in shieldblock about 45seconds in? -- I was 164
elder sage
well it'll be 6seconds or so at my haste
its up pretty steady for the first 45sec and then it has 6sec gaps i think
dense umbra
Want to be at least mythic dungeon geared for CE, like ~184
jagged pier
for cutting edge?
elder sage
yeah I was dragged along by my guild that wanted to do it on alts even though I had only done 3 m0s on this guy and bought a bunch of blue 150 gear to even do that
jagged pier
you need to be higher XD
ionic fern
This is the closest ilvl i found
Look at the damage taken
12k. 🙂
Use SB properly.
dense umbra
Oops CN* 😬
ionic fern
@elder sage do you have logs?
elder sage
yeah heres one of the wipes -- I gave up and went and did some M0s after a few wipes so they could get an approriate ilvl tank https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jV9MrCTfBk4FwbDQ#type=damage-taken&fight=10&source=1
at around 180-190 ilvl how much does a non-talented IP absorb?
hallow phoenix
208 ilvl. Never Surrender IP at 100% hp is for 10425, non-talented for 7446
ie 40% increase
why we talking about IP
ionic fern
Idk.
elder sage
oh well in my case Shoot unblocked and unabsorbed was 24k and when I ran out of shield block and bolster charges IP could only block about 4400 or about 20% of the incoming dmg and removed every swing 😦
so I was wondering if the Never Surrender talent isnt so bad or why it is considered bad
hallow phoenix
Consider this:
ionic fern
It's bad because:
IP is a flat NUMBER not a %.
IP is used as a Rage dump.
It's competing with Indom.
sick sentinel
Should my talents change in m+ based on if im using the wall 190 or thunderlord 190 (both haste versa)
hallow phoenix
I have 55.5k health, talented with Indom every IP is a 7446 absorb AND a 2220 heal
ionic fern
If it also increased the damage it absorbs per hit (50% flat) it would be a bit better
But it doesn'ät.
It just increases the max .
hallow phoenix
on top of revenge spamming healing + increased max hp to fight getting chonked
ionic fern
Without NS you get smacked for 50%, With NS you get smacked for 50% as well.
elder sage
Tusks how does IP heal 2220, and how does revenge heal you?
sick sentinel
what is the best way to deal with the ghosts in 4 and + keys this week? just have entire group run away?
ionic fern
It does not increase the % it absorbs.
hallow phoenix
what is the best way to deal with the ghosts in 4 and + keys this week? just hav...
When ghosts spawn just move the pack a little so your melee can still do melee things
Otherwise i basically ignore spiteful and let my party kite/cc them as they deem necessary
sick sentinel
first time experiencing ghosts last night on a +4 and we failed it miserable
ionic fern
Kite them or cc.
elder sage
the ghosts lose 8% hps so just cc
sick sentinel
45 minutes on a 4 spires, healer kept complianing i pulled at low mana and zero interupt, which are valid arguments against me
what's 8 into 100? 12 or so? (seconds till they die on own)
chilly brook
Tbh you waste a ton of time if you dps them down
Cc and move to next pack is usually the play
And prideful takes care of the healers mana for the most part
elder sage
is there any point to being able to summon extra prideful minions? one of my groups summoned two at once before last boss in theatre of pain and we wiped twice killin them
(by talking to the npc and asking him to)
sick sentinel
i'm still too timid to try +10s and +15's until i get like 200 ilvl
ionic fern
You can easily do 10's with below 200
torn mirage
You can easily do 10's with below 200
I'm having so much trouble even doing 9s, I dont get how 10+ are possible
ionic fern
Decent DPS'ers. 🙂
Pug life is a fun RNG. You can easily deplete a +9 with bad DPS players while you can also easily do the dungeon on a +14 with good DPS players.
elder sage
9s arent too bad, 10s were tough because we were always surprised by the prideful minion (every 20% enemy forces btw)
chilly brook
I'm having so much trouble even doing 9s, I dont get how 10+ are possible
10s are easier than 9s
elder sage
😆
ionic fern
They are. 🤷
chilly brook
Also pugs suck
And they're a huge portion of why keys get depeleted rn
Because they don't do mechanics or kick
hallow phoenix
Had a NW group today where the rogue failed the hook mechanic 3 times
in one fight
just missed the boss completely
And people still don't know the manastorm fight
chilly brook
Your experience as a tank can differ vastly depending on the players you have in the group
sick sentinel
nothing stops you from going a certain boss first in TOP right?
chilly brook
hallow phoenix
nothing except ideal prideful routing
chilly brook
^
sick sentinel
this is only a +4 my personal key
hallow phoenix
then follow ur heart
chilly brook
Also arena wing besides being good for prideful is a good gauge as to whether you're gonna get anywhere with the key anyways
hallow phoenix
I do arena last 😮
chilly brook
Arena>caster>abom
hallow phoenix
icky
elder sage
I like to do abom last because I'm always worried I won't have the % but I always do
hallow phoenix
I prideful a portal guardian, lich boss, scary hooks boss, that awful skeleton pack with the archers in arena wing, and last boss
sick sentinel
i never been scared of abom boss yet once
hooks are so easy and even if you do get hit, doesn't seem to hurt at all
hallow phoenix
hooks are death sentence
chilly brook
Going arena wing first I get the same pridefuls
Minus lich
Also I'm assuming since you prideful last boss you skip the packs at the start?
chilly brook
Nah cuz no rogue
hallow phoenix
prideful last boss so good
chilly brook
sick sentinel
i don't like pulling at all in plague fall past the first boss
chilly brook
You just pull the first pack and mind soothe the mount guy?
sick sentinel
something always seems to go wrong each trash pack
chilly brook
Ye
hallow phoenix
We mind soothe past the 3 pack and kill the mounted dude
then when we come back we finish 3 pack for prideful
chilly brook
Prideful on the big pack in arena, then arena boss, platform in the caster wing, and then abom boss
chilly brook
How would a hunter do that btw
chilly brook
Wouldnt they get you in combat too?
hallow phoenix
no
steady fiber
It's possible to fix the mtd ?
chilly brook
Theres not a whole lot of places for you to go
hallow phoenix
The one hunter that showed me how to get prideful on last boss just pulled everything to the right
and we ran to the left
then he feigned and regrouped
chilly brook
Huh
chilly brook
It's possible to fix the mtd ?
Google Manbaby Dungeon Tools, download it from github and install it
hallow phoenix
I'm currently tinkering with invis pot skipping in DoS