This is 2nd week of mythic
#protection
tepid nest
The guy has clearly made up his mind, he cares nothing for your advice
shrewd bronze
It does mean quite a bit as he's able to push 17's or higher when most can't
open monolith
Okay Wyrmo
you're right man
craft signet
it's the secret best legendary
you'll be doing 17s in no time with signet.
shrewd bronze
I didnt make up my mind im asking what you guys thinkg about signet
strong forum
BDK is the worst, just by design of being a self healing low mitigation tank, theyll get knocked out quite fast. Best is clearly VDH for now
maybe later on Bears will rise
shrewd bronze
And all you do is say "dont craft signet" thats not an answer
open monolith
we all collectively think signet is a bad prot trinket, because it is
strong forum
Signet is not worth it as it only works with Avatar, not with Ravager
tepid nest
I think he's pushing high keys with signet because he's a good player with a good team, one of the few really good teams that's using a prot warr instead of like most other tanks which are better
Don't read too much into it
strong forum
and very Very little offensive benefit
shrewd bronze
So which is better between TC and Wall for M+ only?
strong forum
🤷♂️
open monolith
Either or.
tepid nest
Both are viable afaik
open monolith
Playstyle differences
strong forum
no clue tbh
open monolith
conduit differences
You decide which playstyle you like better, and you craft that one
use Stalwart Guardian, Anger Management, and The Wall for Shield Wall CD around 60 seconds
chilly brook
If you look at literally any of the other top prot warriors they're running better talents and proper legendaries...
open monolith
Use TL if you want to shout more.
shrewd bronze
Damn I want to craft my prot leggo for m+ but not sure (I already have signet btw Im main arms for raiding but I always m+ as prot and I do like pushing very high keys)
open monolith
do you plan to literally ever raid as prot?
amber herald
wall is better all round
shrewd bronze
Used to do 25's in BFA but I dont want to waste soul ash crafting the wronf one
No i dont raid as prot
Ever
open monolith
go TL then
chilly brook
You're going to have enough soul ash to craft w/e you want in a few weeks
neat parcel
you really want to give up minute shield wall?
shrewd bronze
TL pretty much brings back end of BFA playstyle right?
neat parcel
the wall man
neat parcel
pink floyd, the wall
strong forum
BFA playstyle is gone
chilly brook
If you want high keys BFA playstyle is gone
shrewd bronze
Gotcha
chilly brook
Especially end of BFA
amber herald
it's only a minute with anger management which means no bolster 🙁
open monolith
TL just lets you use Booming voice Demo shout more often. it doesn't change your rotation at all
Warrior Legendaries are
bad
as are our conduits
chilly brook
TL just lets you use Booming voice Demo shout more often. it doesn't change your...
Technically it would
TC would priority over shield slam imo for aoe with TL
open monolith
You'd be wrong about that Griff
neat parcel
now Imm torn
shrewd bronze
Also Bolster or AM for m+? What do you guys think now that they're on the same row
open monolith
you don't prioritize Tclap any higher just because you're wearing TL
chilly brook
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
open monolith
Bolster to live. AM to pump.
chilly brook
We did with DC
neat parcel
I’d rather pump
open monolith
Bolster technically also lets you pump a bit, since you can spam revenge a bit more with all that free Shield Block
amber herald
don’t need bolster when you have shield wall
shiels wall's only 8 seconds, with bolster you can get a 30 second shield block
toxic gyro
You can’t pump when ure dead
chilly brook
Also Bolster or AM for m+? What do you guys think now that they're on the same r...
If you do high keys its not a choice, bolster is a set and forget
shrewd bronze
Yeah thought so
open monolith
Ravager / Bolster feelsgood
neat parcel
damn so the thunderlord one is true BiS
chilly brook
but you would have shield wall up more
I like AM/The Wall but Bolster is far better in m+
neat parcel
wall is a trap
open monolith
wall is not a trap
chilly brook
The majority of your reduction in shield wall is from The Wall anyways not AM
open monolith
They are both good, they just offer different things.
chilly brook
The Wall is a trap but only if you're not using shield wall practically on CD
toxic gyro
Remember that wall gives u also 5 more rage from ss
tepid nest
Isn't it 40 rage?
astral crystal
the wall is deffo not a trap
chilly brook
Idk
neat parcel
40
astral crystal
it's solid
toxic gyro
Good part about tl is that u use demo on cd
astral crystal
for keys too
tepid nest
How much does TL reduce the cd on demo by?
chilly brook
Its not like you're losing rage because you go with TL
tepid nest
Assuming 3 targets hit
shrewd bronze
For TL which slot is recommended?
tepid nest
I mean
astral crystal
1.5s per target hit up to 4.5s max per tclap
tepid nest
I get that, I mean, if I use demo and then use TC On cooldown
chilly brook
For TL which slot is recommended?
Either
tepid nest
What's the demo cooldown gonna end up being
neat parcel
so wall is better for raid and mythic + its thunder lord
chilly brook
Can't be fucked to do the math for you
toxic gyro
But I use wall almost on cd too, whenever you run out of sb charges, no last stand,
You either wall or have to kite
sleek thorn
For TL which slot is recommended?
Guide says boots, since they're not itemized as well as the other tl slot
astral crystal
you have to kite regardless as keys go up right now
chilly brook
the wall is deffo not a trap
It is when people hold shield wall so much
neat parcel
man you smart gentleman think they will ever give a third charge of shield wall or too OP
open monolith
QOL Update I would like to see:
Demoralizing Shout now builds a moderate to significant amount of threat.
shrewd bronze
Guide says boots, since they're not itemized as well as the other tl slot
Gotcha ty
astral crystal
which is why im not too hung up on TL being mandatory for m+
astral crystal
It is when people hold shield wall so much
i mean that's user error
tepid nest
Sucks to have to dump rage to hold aoe threat sometimes, guess that's intended design
chilly brook
Theres lots of user error
Granted I'm not talking it's a trap when played properly
I'm talking for your average prot warrior
chilly brook
Sucks to have to dump rage to hold aoe threat sometimes, guess that's intended d...
Doesnt feel too bad tbh
I'm not ever really in a position where I'm having to fight for aggro and also fight for my life
tepid nest
Idk, I feel like every bit of rage needs to be used to survive ATM, maybe I have shitty healers
chilly brook
In those situations how often are you losing aggro
shrewd bronze
Is the signet<>ravager issue intended or a bug for prot?
chilly brook
Bug
sleek thorn
Idk, I feel like every bit of rage needs to be used to survive ATM, maybe I have...
How long are you trying to face tank m+ pulls?
chilly brook
Or at least assumed bug
sweet summit
we honestly dont know
chilly brook
That's been reported since beta
shrewd bronze
Confirmed?
sweet summit
both are possible
shrewd bronze
Gotcha
fallow mortar
if ravager worked, would it be a viable thing for prot?
sweet summit
yes
chilly brook
Definitely
fallow mortar
shakes fist at blizzard
sweet summit
would be our best damage lego
chilly brook
And nice rage gen
tepid nest
How long are you trying to face tank m+ pulls?
Probably too long, not sure
strong forum
depends on every pull
shrewd bronze
Im noy even going to craft a prot lego until i feel like i need it to survive then lul
chilly brook
Itd be a really fun Lego
strong forum
in Mists you can facetank 24/7 except first pull maybe
chilly brook
I mean if you're going to do m+ and only m+ as a tank you're inting if youre not using TL
tepid nest
Not used to not being able to stand and tank stuff tbh, not a huge fan of it
chilly brook
And instead using signet
strong forum
Not used to not being able to stand and tank stuff tbh, not a huge fan of it
nobody likes it
but you gotta do it in higher keys
tepid nest
Like, on necrotic or something sure, that's a given
shrewd bronze
And instead using signet
Seems enough right now though, prob not for 18+
chilly brook
You can just craft a 190 TL tbh
I mean what you're not getting is TL isn't just a survival legendary
shrewd bronze
Im aware but like, if they fix signet ravager for prot Ill try sticking to it for m+ unless i NEED one of the survival leggos
shrewd bronze
LEAPER DUUUDE
amber herald
demo shout makes you do to 20% damage to targets
sweet summit
ocean yoke
leaper for old content and questing in the maw is the big brain move
sturdy sable
Yeah after 5 weeks you'll have 1 maxed right
left cave
I love protection, and thank yo you all here who have been helping me understand more about this class
shrewd bronze
amber herald
it's not just survival
sleek thorn
We're going to have loads of ash during the expansion.
sturdy sable
After that you can make really what ever you want
left cave
Don’t even wana go back to my DH
sweet summit
chilly brook
Leaper but you're afraid of wasting ash on a "survival" legendary...
left cave
Which lego do u have now?
shrewd bronze
I know I might soon
open monolith
We all have rank 4 legendaries now, right?
chilly brook
On a very high uptime
left cave
No
sturdy sable
Isn't more shouts like legit more survival tho?
chilly brook
It is
shrewd bronze
Yeah sock
chilly brook
It's also more damage
sturdy sable
Like demo shout is still 20%, dr
left cave
Are u talking about the thunder clap reduce coo down one!
open monolith
yes more shouts = less incoming and more outgoing damage
left cave
Cool down *
open monolith
(if you have booming voice)
sleek thorn
Yea BV is key
pale lotus
You guys don’t use the leg that lowers cd of shield wall?
sturdy sable
So it is a survival leggo then
sturdy sable
You guys don’t use the leg that lowers cd of shield wall?
I prefer it
open monolith
some people use wall
chilly brook
It's more than just a "survival" Lego
shrewd bronze
I am aware but ima sit on this for another week or two to see if Blizz says anything about the signet<>ravager interaction before crafting
chilly brook
It's both a defensive and offensive boost
shrewd bronze
Rather than pick TL now and find out I need Wall for 18+ keys
chilly brook
I am aware but ima sit on this for another week or two to see if Blizz says anyt...
They've been sitting on it for months 2 more weeks isn't going to fix it
sturdy sable
More rage=more revenges
chilly brook
Rather than pick TL now and find out I need Wall for 18+ keys
Everyone doing high keys as prot is using TL
amber herald
you're overthinking it tbh they're both good and soul ash will become more plentiful as the expansion goes on
chilly brook
Except for one guy
amber herald
TL is more fun imo
wheat sleet
I use the wall, but I should probably get better at playing around shield wall so I don't either pop it unnecessarily or hold it for too long
amber herald
signet would be most fun but it doesn't work
pale lotus
So does TL leggo decrease shout CD by up to 4.5 seconds each time you tclap?
amber herald
on 3+ targets
open monolith
if you're using the wall, you should arguably also be using Anger Management and the Stalwart Guardian conduit, and you should basically be using Shield Wall on Cooldown. If you aren't doing these things, you are kinda of wasting your legendary
sturdy sable
I use the wall, but I should probably get better at playing around shield wall s...
Unless I dont need to save it for a specific reason I use shield wall to cover gaps in mitigation or to cover offensive rage spending
But use shield wall as often as you can to maximize the cdr
shrewd bronze
Now the meme part is... Im Venthyr cuz Arms main 
open monolith
I use shield wall on the 2nd pack of De Other Side and otherwise forget that I have it 😄
wheat sleet
same, wyrm
sleek thorn
I shield wall on pull.
open monolith
I am a bad warrior
pale lotus
You don’t shieldwall the first pack?!
chilly brook
So does TL leggo decrease shout CD by up to 4.5 seconds each time you tclap?
1.5 seconds per target hit capped at 3 targets
open monolith
the 1st pack of De Other side is easy
sturdy sable
Its all melee isn't it
open monolith
the 2nd pack (in front of zul'gurub) is the hard pack
chilly brook
The caster pack + raptor pack is the worst
sturdy sable
^
shrewd bronze
Yeah
open monolith
that's the 2nd pack
pale lotus
Per thunder clap right? So one can decr by 4.5 secs, another will do an additional 4.5 max?
chilly brook
Per thunder clap right? So one can decr by 4.5 secs, another will do an addition...
Yes
shrewd bronze
You can night fae stun with jar but id you dont have a fae rip
sturdy sable
I tell every group I'm in to lust there
If I think we need it I drums
wheat sleet
if you're using the wall, you should arguably also be using Anger Management and...
really, am? I do use stalwart but I figured using am would be a bit too much cdr (not that you can really have too much, but yknow)
sturdy sable
Bolster still has value with the wall
chilly brook
Tbh I'm thinking about going fae instead of Kyrian for prot
sturdy sable
I went venthyr
shrewd bronze
Im venthyr cuz arms main but condemn is so awkward
chilly brook
NF just pumps
shrewd bronze
On prot
chilly brook
Ye
wheat sleet
condemn is bis simply for the animation
sturdy sable
Im venthyr cuz arms main but condemn is so awkward
It really only feels good inside execute lol
Pop last stand with the rage gen condiut and blast the boss
wheat sleet
I wonder if they added the damage reduction aspect of condemn to make it more appealing to prot lol
shrewd bronze
I guess it works when youre off tank in raid but for m+ i rarely even press it unless against a single target
sturdy sable
I press it pretty often
shrewd bronze
But in m+ pack dmg is more important and trash is harder to survive than bosses
chilly brook
Tbh fixing condemn for prot is so easy
fallow mortar
I press it to finish off mobs and get the healing proc
sturdy sable
Yeah but you can also focus down captians
chilly brook
Just give it a cleave
sturdy sable
Make it fury execute
fallow mortar
arms execute*
chilly brook
Making it cleave would be better imo
sturdy sable
With tilapia allowing it to cleave
shrewd bronze
I mean i do condemn when i go into a pack with Bolster up
sturdy sable
Tclap*
chilly brook
If it cleaves it's already just a replacement for IP when its up
sturdy sable
Naw if I can I condemn over ignorepain unless I think my healer is struggling
chilly brook
And a much more efficient one at that
sturdy sable
And even then I think condemn is better rage spent
chilly brook
If it cleaves it applies DR to each target hit
shrewd bronze
I agree but even then youre only reducing dmg taken from 1 mob
sturdy sable
Ignore pain isn't gonna save my life lol
sturdy sable
Yeah
strong oracle
anyone know how to deal with the trash right before hakkar in de other side this week as prot?
i keep getting wiped because of the insane magic damage
sturdy sable
Shield wall and lust
fallow mortar
And just let it cleave
it would also make the harrowing conduit a lot more useful
shrewd bronze
Oh that pack
strong oracle
its actually 3 magic attacks that are being more or less spammed
shrewd bronze
Yesh for that pack you fae jar + lust
strong oracle
is there a jar on that platform?
shrewd bronze
Ye
strong oracle
omg how didnt i thiink of that
chilly brook
I dont think theres one there
strong oracle
i actually go right first so this is the second trash i pull
golden loom
Hey I’m a 190 warrior and still struggling with like +4’s, what gameplay wise am I most likely not doing? I really don’t think it’s my gear, I feel like I’m most likely doing something wrong. My damage is fine, my mitigation really isn’t.
My talents are Devestator, Storm Bolt, Booming Voice, Crackling Thunder, Indomitable, Ravager, and Bolster.
shrewd bronze
Which is a similar pull
You might be right, i dont remember 100% now
strong oracle
I mean honestly its the bonesoldier that are killing me
since they are spamming magic damage
chilly brook
I mean honestly its the bonesoldier that are killing me
You can also make that pull smaller with hunter traps, paralysis etc.
open monolith
Perodis if you are 190 and struggling in a +4, you are correct, it likely is you and not your gear.
strong oracle
You can also make that pull smaller with hunter traps, paralysis etc.
good call, thanks
open monolith
You're using the right talents, as well
shrewd bronze
Gotta shield wall that pack without the jar and maybe use traps yeah
chilly brook
People have to kick scribe too
shrewd bronze
But for the one with the jar you just pop that and burst
strong oracle
yeah the one before ardenweald is no problem
chilly brook
And the big guy throws out a damage buff iirc that can be spell stolen or purged I think
strong oracle
its way smaller
yeah can be stolen
kk so no more pug de other side this week
got it
amber herald
also has the knockback that's almost impossible to see with all the other spells going on
tepid nest
It's so fucking hard to see where he's facing
strong oracle
what were they thinking with that group, its honestly so much harder than anything else in this dungeon lol
amber herald
I've actually not been thrown off yet
it's just hard to call on disc, my groups always like "he's casting it but where is it going"
and then the boomkin goes wheeeeee
amber herald
as much as I enjoy watching my teammates go flying it's beginning to effect my rio score 🙁
amber herald
Oh you've reminded me
chilly brook
And seeing which way hes facing isn't that hard
amber herald
Any way to turn other people's covenant spells on?
amber herald
I don't see anything
chilly brook
Like when a monk faeline stomps I see the initial animation but it doesnt stay on the ground for me
open monolith
I wish I could see the Hunter wild spirits ground effect
so i can stop hearing my friend cry everytime I leave it
sleek thorn
I wish blizz would do more regarding spell effects. Like being able to turn everyone's off except yours. Being able to see mobs while having your graphics cranked makes it hard to see what mobs are doing
stray sierra
golden loom
Is Kyrian the undisputed best covenant for prot in M+?
gloomy cradle
Sim it
Sketchy one to sim because of the various effects
Quantum is sweet af as long as you can get the haste buff though
chilly brook
Eh afaik it only sims the stat bonuses and perhaps the execute
fallow mortar
the haste buff comes up quite often
chilly brook
And it's clearly not that sketch to sim
Because it's been simmed for every spec
And they're fairly accurate
gloomy cradle
Think you can probably macro it though to have a better shot at the correct buff
sick sentinel
that’s the problem @chilly brook it assumes perfect usage. in reality you get at least one or two uses in a raid fight that give a healer mana and are wasted
gloomy cradle
the haste buff comes up quite often
It's deterministic
sick sentinel
there is a weak aura floating around that helps you know when best to press it, i recommend using it
chilly brook
that’s the problem <@133532617940140032> it assumes perfect usage. in reality yo...
Eh I dont think I had any uses that weren't a stat buff or an execute in raid
fallow mortar
yes, and in my experience it comes up more often than not
gloomy cradle
there is a weak aura floating around that helps you know when best to press it, ...
100%
chilly brook
Granted it's also not my favorite trinket so I just replaced it
sick sentinel
that’s just not true @chilly brook i have had it on for every raid encounter since day 1 of heroic raid and ive never had a pull where it didn’t give mana at least once
chilly brook
220 scale
amber herald
Is Kyrian the undisputed best covenant for prot in M+?
nightfae's pretty good
chilly brook
📈
gloomy cradle
yes, and in my experience it comes up more often than not
Yeah I mean it's easier on trash
Hard to get more than one use on bosses and even worse in raids
sick sentinel
yep in raids i pop it right before the pull for my stat proc then put on another trinket
gloomy cradle
Yeah in raid it's flat out bad unless you swap
open monolith
how good is Denathrius trinket vs anima emitter / Scale
chilly brook
Would like to get a phial at a decent ilvl
Denathrius trinket pumps in single target
But that's about it
chilly brook
Same
open monolith
no the 1 minute CD one that drops for prot o.o
gives you a shield, and if the shield isn't consumed it heals you for double the amount, or something
chilly brook
I think people have said it's not great but idk
sick sentinel
i think if you wanna be as tanky as possible scale + heraldry is undoubtedly your best bet
chilly brook
Could be wrong
sick sentinel
then you can swap one for dps trinket or anima emitter if you want more offense
chilly brook
Heraldry is just a good pick if you get a group with them
open monolith
you know what trinket is low-key fucking great for pugging m+? Kael'thas trinket. I LOVE when I see that debuff on me after killing a boss (which is more often than it should be there)
open monolith
wat
open monolith
HA.
even better
fuck those stupid pugs
but yeah i definitely never noticed that
the explosion radius is 5 yards
so if that "wiped your group"
you have other problems
like "why is everyone humping me"
tardy parcel
you know what trinket is low-key fucking great for pugging m+? Kael'thas trinket...
I was incredibly skeptical of it when I got it, and assumed it was garbaj. I started wearing it in a few higher random m+s and have come to seriously appreciate it lol
open monolith
yeah it's low-key (ha) pretty great for pugging
no organized group should ever use it, ever
sick sentinel
by wiped our group i mean it killed 3 melee who were low hp at the time in raid, so we just called a wipe
open monolith
but when you can't trust your people, use it
sick sentinel
it’s definitely not a huge amount of damage or radius, but it can randomly cuck you
chilly brook
Idk just seems detrimental
If you're dead your healer probably fucked up somewhere so itll probably cuck someone else
chilly brook
Same with the NF cheat death as a tank
sick sentinel
for things like dh and dk it makes sense to have them as talents
but like for warrior idk u just dont need it
and if u do, either u or ur healer needs to fix their shit
open monolith
I mean, it is an objectively bad trinket
for any kind of organized group play
BUT
again
I have literally had 4 keys that would have failed with out
open monolith
because I noticed the debuff on me as we killed the last boss with very little time left
it's a pretty significant heal, too
undone jacinth
it has always seemed good to me, not sure how it’s objectively bad
open monolith
well, it offers no benefit the majority of the time
undone jacinth
isn’t like there’s an excess of good trinkets for tanks
open monolith
and in ideal conditions, it does nothing.
undone jacinth
doesn’t really matter what u run in ideal conditions
open monolith
like, let's say you kill the boss in 1 pull. that trinket is objectively worse than virtually every other trinket in the game at that point.
chilly brook
Stat trinkets are on average far better than tank trinkets
astral crystal
cheat death trink is by no means bad, you just have to play around it
and not proc it as an oh shit
chilly brook
At actually doing the tanking part
astral crystal
if you use it just to avoid death due to mistakes or whatever then that's not the intended use for it
open monolith
I use it because I have shit luck with trinkets... I have 200 kaelthas trinket and 171 hakkar trinket D:
undone jacinth
just sounds like the same argument people used to make about last resort... eventually people accept it’s just good to have a cheat in any decently hard content
open monolith
I mean, I'm not saying having cheat death is bad
but it's worse than anima field emitter and scale
undone jacinth
U said the trinket was objectively bad
chilly brook
I mean last resort is just the only good talent on that row
Soooooo
Not really a good comparison
undone jacinth
and yet people still made the argument
chilly brook
Since you have access to all the trinkets assuming they drop
undone jacinth
why not cleave because u get dr and u shouldn’t be dying anyway etc
open monolith
if you have access to every trinket, somehow, you shouldn't use the kael'thas one
open monolith
p much
chilly brook
Because the cleave DR is insignificant
open monolith
I would much rather have a high ilvl anime field and scale
chilly brook
It's not going to be the difference between you living or dying
undone jacinth
if ur ever in content with 0 chance of cheating then I’m not sure it matters what trinkets ur running
open monolith
sure it does
gloomy cradle
its great if you need it, its bad if you dont need it
^^
chilly brook
Not entirely true
Last Resort is great because it opens options the other talents on that row dont
open monolith
although the strength on the cheat death trinket is pretty significant
chilly brook
I.e. it's just an extra way to enable meta and different pulls
open monolith
i think it's 61 strength at ilvl 200
chilly brook
I didnt use it as a cheat death in BFA when I played vengeance
I used it as a pull enabler
If I wasn't procing it I was doing something wrong
But last resort also gives you full duration meta at full hp
So it's not just a cheat death
chilly brook
Those kind of pulls with splintered heart would likely be a wipe
Because you're just gonna die again
chilly brook
Hence why its not comparable imo
chilly brook
Is it good now?
I'm just explaining the nuance as to why tank trinkets like this cant be compared to the talent choice of Last Resort
chilly brook
Even Blood DKs essentially meme on Purgatory
Because it's only a pick for if you're not comfortable with the class
Last Resort is the only cheat death talent that's truly useful at any level of play
undone jacinth
our DK not running purg has wiped us multiple times, kinda annoying tbh
sweet summit
i dont think purg is the issue there mate
chilly brook
Sounds like a personal mess up or a healer mess up tbh
undone jacinth
it’s not all of the issue but its the difference between and a death and no death in those specific circumstances
chilly brook
If you proc purgatory you're probably gonna die anyways
sweet summit
not really
chilly brook
I've proc'd purgatory in a fight and still wipe 2 minutes later because the healers didn't cover when I had nothing left
undone jacinth
if that boss is gonna die in 30s then that’s not an issue
which is how our stuff has been going
chilly brook
That's pretty specific though
open monolith
I think the first mistake in that situation
undone jacinth
yeah it’s specifically what’s been happening to me
open monolith
was playing a blood DK
undone jacinth
indeed
open monolith
kek
undone jacinth
it’s actually a nightmare
open monolith
man you know what I miss? WOTLK DK Tanking. When all 3 trees had tanking talents
undone jacinth
Watching his hp is pure anxiety
open monolith
I remember doing 10 man 3-drake Sartharion, I had this ridiculously stupid build where I put like... 20ish points in every tree in order to get the defensive cooldown from each tree just to survive the breaths.
OG DK tanking was lit.
chilly brook
And it wasn't a "get hit hard to heal big "
undone jacinth
with nerfed healing
get hit hard to heal kinda big and die to the next melee
gl
chilly brook
Blood DK just doesn't work with modern wow design imo
open monolith
The best feeling is being a warrior and its time to do sludgefist
and the other tank whispers you
chilly brook
As things get harder and hits harder more often
open monolith
"d---daddy? Can you take this one? he.... he melees too hard"
and you just smile.
pat the other tank on the head
and put up shield block.
sweet summit
undone jacinth
sludge gonna kill him anyway
chilly brook
Blood DK worked better when everything was tuned as crazily as it has been due to m+ and mythic raiding
open monolith
2nd tank takes damage based on your mitigation
undone jacinth
it doesn’t
chilly brook
And before it got nerfed continually
open monolith
every thing i've ever read says that that is how it works
undone jacinth
logs don’t unfortunately
chilly brook
This was a topic in the DK discord
If you look at a prot paladin tanking the boss vs a DK the damage difference is there
sturdy sable
So you'd want a mitigation tank main tanking and a healing tank off tanking
chilly brook
Second tank gets hit for what the guy actively tanking the boss does
chilly brook
So you want a high phys mit tanking him
undone jacinth
to both tanks
open monolith
hmm
undone jacinth
monk unfortunately not very tanky rn
undone jacinth
it was how it worked before
open monolith
but... how I know that, once again, the internet isn't just wrong in this context?
inland mesa
It started that way for first week and a half or 2
undone jacinth
but there was a bug where 2nd tank was taking literally no dmg sometimes and they fixed that
uh yeah u just disproved urself?
chilly brook
Same thing but with paladin do
inland mesa
Monk feels really strong to me, but my warrior is 15 ilvls behind now
open monolith
those logs seem to indicate
that it works the way I thought
and those are from today
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
chilly brook
Keep in mind that monk damage taken is post stagger as stagger damage is calculated as a different damage intake
And that looks about the right value if they take the same amount that the main tank takes
inland mesa
Dont you usually put monk as main to get more elusive stacks to just outright dodge some attacks
fossil summit
wait prot warrior in Torghast is hilarious
chilly brook
I mean you should
open monolith
@undone jacinth explain those logs, sir!
chilly brook
Definitely a better tank for sludge than blood
undone jacinth
I can’t use wcl on my iPad but paste the events of stone fists and melee on the tanks
chilly brook
These are just logs that Mandl posted regarding why you put phys mitigation tanks as main tank for that fight
And I'd trust Mandl over someone in the prot discord regarding this
Nothing personal
open monolith
Paladin (MT) 4k DTPS and DK (OT) 2k DTPS
DK (MT) 8k DTPS and Monk (OT) 3k DTPS
that indicates that who the main tank is, and how they mitigate damage, matters.
chilly brook
Also if it was pre mitigation damage this makes no sense
open monolith
Griff can, he knows his way around WCL more than me
undone jacinth
It should say the damage event of sludge hitting them with the values in brackets
it will say M value and U value
chilly brook
chilly brook
open monolith
today
undone jacinth
nope
both the logs that griff linked are dated 13 december
i picked a random log from today
and look
(I'm on pc now)
open monolith
ah, well, those are very different
what date is that log from
the first one
i can only see the time 11:58pm lol
undone jacinth
both of griffs logs were dated 13 december
undone jacinth
yeah thats what we said
open monolith
was that in patch notes anywhere?
undone jacinth
yeah it was
open monolith
well I assumed Griff was posting something recent
now I know Griff is a big ol' dumb dumb
undone jacinth
the 2nd tank was in some cases taking almost no dmg at all
inland mesa
They screwed with it when they got there on mythic and fixed his chains
open monolith
I mean, yeah
but it makes my fun little fake RP story irrelevant
which was the important part of all this
undone jacinth
point is ur DK OT (or more like my guilds DK OT =[) is gonna get clapped anyway
open monolith
imagine unironically playing a BLood DK when Unholy is in its current form
l o l e
undone jacinth
they are meta chasers unfortunately, now trying to recruit dks and mm hunters no matter how much they suck lol
open monolith
LIMIT USED A PROT WARRIOR
WE NEED A PROT WARRIOR
happy prot warrior noises but for the wrong reasons
undone jacinth
there’s still too many YouTube tier lists out there for that one to have landed
open monolith
D:
undone jacinth
it’s weird how people can be meta chasers yet still not even know about what the top guilds are doing strat wise etc
can’t even chase the meta properly
lavish oracle
Really it's funny because most of players who know shit about the game basically say 'bring the player, not the class'
chilly brook
Because people play well on the class they enjoy for the most part
lavish oracle
The exception being guilds pushing for like top 10 world
chilly brook
And bleeding edge is the only place where class performance really matters
For the most part anyways
lavish oracle
I mean, I know Gingi has definitely played hunter in tiers where hunter was not the best option
undone jacinth
it is true but then it’s also a bit rich from them when all their strats are based on having specific classes lol
lavish oracle
But he still pumps because he's insane at the game
chilly brook
Ye but take for example Uldir it would have been stupid for Limit to not revolve their strat around mages
lavish oracle
@undone jacinth to be fair, all their players play all the classes, basically
chilly brook
That is until Blizz decided to nerf the fuck out of said spec and traits the day after they had a 1% wipe
lavish oracle
Or could play all the classes well
undone jacinth
there’s always a need to do it, I’m not saying it’s bad to do, just that the crap guilds don’t benefit from having better classes isn’t quite true
chilly brook
Well
You're talking about bleeding edge prog where its needed
Because the nerfs haven't gone out
lavish oracle
They don't benefit if they recruit trash players playing good specs
undone jacinth
I mean I play feral mostly at the moment and it’s actually tilting that I have no raid utility or immunity
undone jacinth
feral does good dmg but that’s not the issue
undone jacinth
the downside is u can’t immune anything and provide no raid buff
chilly brook
What can you immune as boomie
undone jacinth
boomie at least has innervate
undone jacinth
boomie gets roar too now
chilly brook
Yes but you have something
undone jacinth
was the only thing we had lol
chilly brook
More roars isn't bad tbh
undone jacinth
aye I’m just saying having worse classes is clearly detrimental at any level
chilly brook
You're just not appealing over boomie because you're melee and boomie just does better numbers
chilly brook
Yes but boomie numbers are considerably better
undone jacinth
I doubt it’s that big
chilly brook
Was fighting with Unholy before the nerf
chilly brook
undone jacinth
99th percentile not exactly applicable to most
it features all the cheese kills lol
undone jacinth
it’s rly not
chilly brook
Not currently
undone jacinth
I just linked 75th which is far more representative
chilly brook
The difference at the highest performance level
Like theres really not much cheesing going on in mythic if at all tbh
Not this early
undone jacinth
oh dear
chilly brook
And if you drop it to heroic
At the 80th
Balance literally rules the #1 spot
In practically all percentiles
jade axle
Best mythic+ to farm to pump my Prot gear? its looking like tirna scythe
undone jacinth
and yet the difference is small
as feral is also near the top
with 10x less parses
chilly brook
The difference between survival and BM is small
You're still gonna take the BM hunter all day
chilly brook
Then I think we're arguing the same thing just from different points
undone jacinth
my point is feral brings nothing useful but dmg that can’t be brought by a better class
even if that other class does worse, same or a bit better dmg
having classes that bring nothing just feels bad for everyone, even the player themselves
and I think a lot of top guilds say classes don’t matter because they’re used to having good players who also play good classes
livid gyro
The thing about feral vs boomy is that they end up bringing similar or the same utility (depending on affinity choice) so with boomy doing more damage and having wide-range AoE in starfall they're more useful to bring along
They're also ranged of course
undone jacinth
yeah of course, I guess what I’m saying is even if boomie sucked, it still feels rotten to play such a low utility raid spec
livid gyro
I wouldn't say they're low utility, quite a lot you can do as a druid
undone jacinth
like?
livid gyro
If they're resto affinity every 5 minutes they can off heal for 45s with heart of the wild
They have a battle rez
livid gyro
Sure but it's still one of like, 3 in the game
Also they have a ton of mob control
And if they're Night Fae they get basically the best burst in the game
fading basin
is venthyr bad for prot war?
undone jacinth
and unfortunately one of the others is no cast time and attached to the best melee in the game
strong forum
Venthyr is good in raid, borderline useless in m+
undone jacinth
mob control not relevant for raid
strong forum
Melee spots are only given to those with utility or if overpowered
undone jacinth
exactly
strong forum
nothing else
undone jacinth
more reason not to take
strong forum
if theyre not overpowered or bring actual utility, youre better off bringing a ranged
livid gyro
Which is what boomkin are
undone jacinth
ye and we full circle to feral not bringing anything unique or overly useful
livid gyro
I mean I agree with that
livid gyro
My point was, if you had a choice between feral and boomy, you'd take boomy 99% of the time
Because boomy brings all of if not more of the utility of feral with a spec that does more damage and isn't melee
undone jacinth
it’s not possible to argue with that other than due to player skill
strong forum
yes, Ka5h3D
undone jacinth
that’s the point though, I just don’t think modern WoW can have specs that don’t bring anything special to raid
and that shows in player numbers
livid gyro
I think the bigger issue is having a ranged and melee option on a class
strong forum
after all its just a game
livid gyro
It's the same with the hunter
strong forum
or shaman
livid gyro
Yep
strong forum
but shaman dps itself is a huge meme in itself
livid gyro
Only difference with shaman is that you don't get windfury totem if you don't bring enh
strong forum
cuz they dont offer anything outside of resto spec
undone jacinth
enhance at least gets windury, which is exactly the kind of thing they should do
more of
strong forum
that just forces you more into
"bring the class, not the player"
you already have alot of must haves
1 Mage
1 Warri
1 Priest
1 DH
1 Monk
undone jacinth
if u don’t give a reason to bring the class, no players play it or get brought
livid gyro
Did they get rid of the inscription scrolls that give you the buff?
strong forum
yes
undone jacinth
all non unique specs have less parses than all other specs
livid gyro
Ah rip
strong forum
if you add more of those things, itll just kill every other spec that doesnt have unique benefits
thats just luck Kashed
livid gyro
True
strong forum
yes
ocean bloom
Just wondering if theres any guides on when to use IP over SB, seems like from my brief period of prot warr is that IP is for smoothing dmg between SB and other CDs is that correct?
undone jacinth
Non unique specs are dead af
strong forum
Just wondering if theres any guides on when to use IP over SB, seems like from m...
SB > IP vs blockable damage
strong forum
IP as ragedump and damage smoother
and main mitigation vs Dots and Magic ( next to your CDs)
ocean bloom
okay and is there any good general rules on revenge vs IP?
strong forum
experience really
ocean bloom
okay
strong forum
Revenge is dmg
IP is defensive
you will need both
weave both in as you need them
ocean bloom
sounds good to me, will just take some time with the class and i might come back later with more questions!
strong forum
feel free to do so
left cave
which conduits are best for m+?
undone jacinth
they all suck xd
slate shell
is there a way to sim stat weight for tanks?
slate shell
or is it just feelcraft the reason we going haste over versa
slate shell
i understand, but im just woindering if stacking versa heavy gear over haste, would help with the whole "paper tank" issue
strong forum
paper tank 
fallow mortar
have you tried using shield block?
strong forum
if you cant get 90% vers
you aint gonna be tankier
with SL we lost a HUGE amount of Block uptime
which is why we need to stack haste all the more
slate shell
so why is a crit mastery 226 better than a 220 haste versa item then
strong forum
cuz of ilvl
sleek thorn
More stats are better than less stats
strong forum
^
more stats > less but better stats
STR is HUUUUGE in SL
strength is worth 3-4x the secondary stat
or well, mainstat in general
for every spec in the game
Mainstat is currently the most important stat for every single spec in the game, be it DPS, Healer or Tank
slate shell
im just confused cause doing 14+ keys is like, a single mistake or wrong timing on something, and im dead
which just feels extremely weird, for playing a tank
strong forum
well
welcome to SL
kiting is the bread and butter of every tank now
because you cant facetank all the time
if you run out of SB charges and CDs
you get the fuck out
simple as that
slate shell
is there a breaking point in haste btw?
slate shell
alrighty
strong forum
triple down on haste
while following the general rule of equipping highest ilvl
with a few exceptions here and there
fading basin
Kyrian/Fae is supposed to be best for prot, but venthyr is best for arms. Is there one that fits good for all aspects for arms/prot? Since venthyr isn’t good for prot
hallow phoenix
Kyrian is a good middle ground
strong forum
Kyrian is still good for arms in m+, and bis in pvp
wicked lantern
Spear is super useful in both PVP/PVE
Spear into bladestorm w/ Unhinged legendary = dead
sweet summit
foxy uwu
undone sun
ocean bloom
for the 45 talent row, what are the main trade offs for each choice? into the fray a ravager seem to be fairly popular compared to unstoppable force which is what the guides recommend.
hallow phoenix
Ravager for m+, ITF for raids
nimble drift
Killed heroic inerva
Pulled council twice and got it to 20% last phase
Next pull was the kill but i have fucking christmas dinner to go to
So tragic they killed it right after I left
main jewel
tacit smelt
is the mechagon trinket from de other side good for us in some way?
nimble drift
Yes
strong forum
Convince me to go night fae
No
hallow phoenix
Convince me to go night fae
Ancient aftershock manhandles each caster pack and every pack in Mechagon in DoS
left cave
so i was just in other side and fighting last boss, when he did the fist thing i couldnt shield block it
hallow phoenix
Also the mission table companions aren't useless
tacit smelt
so i was just in other side and fighting last boss, when he did the fist thing i...
what thing soulcrush?
left cave
yeah
tacit smelt
spell reflect it
tacit smelt
watch his energy bar
nimble drift
Ya master of death
left cave
ohhh
tacit smelt
he cast it at 100
nimble drift
U can spell reflect any of those 3
tacit smelt
u can spell reflect every other 2
left cave
interesting
tacit smelt
every other*
left cave
didnt know
tacit smelt
Yup just chested a 12 other side
left cave
war is def tricky cause of the defensive management
undone jacinth
U can spell reflect any of those 3
u don’t wanna reflect master of death
weary notch
Just got my Wall leggo. You all still running Ravager and Bolster with the Wall? Wowhead and Icy Veins guides now differ on talent suggestions
chilly brook
Ancient aftershock manhandles each caster pack and every pack in Mechagon in DoS
It doesn't DR does it?
undone jacinth
It has its own unique dr
hallow phoenix
No DR
undone jacinth
it’s very good
hallow phoenix
Dolphin it has no DR
hallow phoenix
It doesn't DR with itself tho
neat dirge
whats a good tank plater profile?
undone jacinth
elvui default is all u need tbh, you can just google plater profiles tho
undone jacinth
u can change the size very easily
neat dirge
i could
or i could also give Plater a try
and if it dosnt work for me i can go back to elvui
undone jacinth
plater default is fine too
chilly brook
You know the real shitty thing?
Theres no real way to take the covenant and test it out in real content without screwing yourself to go back
At least time gating wise
Big fan of plater
chilly brook
Oof
The one thing I would actually say is that the mastery buff from Niya would likely be better than pepegos for me for sure
sick sentinel
I was un-ironically thinking about leveling or boosting an alliance warrior so I can tank or whatever for aliiance
bleak chasm
do you guys think that Venthyr is workable for prot? I mean, I'm sure it's "workable", but is there an upside to it that would outweigh swapping to Kyrian or NF?
chilly brook
Cuz I can't be fucked to pick the orbs up 90% of the time in raid
chilly brook
do you guys think that Venthyr is workable for prot? I mean, I'm sure it's "work...
It's big boi pumper damage in single target
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not much else
sick sentinel
went horde for last guild I was in but sent my rogue back to ally
chilly brook
I wouldn't mind being a dorf
Dark iron that is
Too bad their animations are hilarious
They look dope though
sick sentinel
I think what's going to make venthyr good for prot is really high keys where healer and tank need to do dps as well
sick sentinel
or competitive dps rather that's like 40% of the boss fight isn't it above 80 and below 20%. it's going to make monsters take less time to kill so they will have less time to kill you back
sick sentinel
no you couldn't reliably condemn spam on pull ing trash I guess bosses it will help for sure
hallow phoenix
The one thing I would actually say is that the mastery buff from Niya would like...
Yeah the huge mastery and bonus health when you AA is really nice
sick sentinel
what about the soulbind that can repair your armor mid battle that seems cool but I'm sure it's garbage
I haven't gotten to 3rd companion yet
hallow phoenix
Just drop a jeeves
sick sentinel
Yeah, my warrior is engineer has ton of recipes will never drop engi
could care less about secondary profession
chilly brook
I'm actually so bad about picking up pepegos orbs
hallow phoenix
Just come to the night fae 
chilly brook
Because theres so much positioning stuff
sick sentinel
pepega orbs?
hallow phoenix
We have a cooler covenant fantasy too plus you get to hang out with bobsalami
hallow phoenix
Runestag mounts too
bleak chasm
I'm kyrian on my brm and my pally... kinda sick of the scientology vibes tbh
sick sentinel
That's the tiny blue balls (giggity) right and they give you some kind of bonus by running them over I assume
chilly brook
Mastery
bleak chasm
I like NF, but the static aoe ability on a longish cd is kinda me
hallow phoenix
I knew kyrian wasn't for me the moment I found myself agreeing with Uther
bleak chasm
meh
chilly brook
Bluther is dope
hallow phoenix
AA is way stronger CC than spear fite me
chilly brook
It is
hallow phoenix
Can't wait to pop it with the last stand conduit and swim in rage
chilly brook
I dont know if that's deniable
hallow phoenix
Oh you can also use it in those annoying mobs in the mists maze. Stops their aoe cast each time
sick sentinel
The urn holds your father's ashes arthas! What, where you hoping to piss on them while you left his kingdom to rot?!
hallow phoenix
Is this a kyrian story thing
ocean bloom
how does stacking IP work?
bleak chasm
So, then, I'm between Venth and NF
sick sentinel
is a line from wc3 when arthas kills uther
bleak chasm
I do like condemn though. It's so fun to use.
hallow phoenix
I should play wc3
chilly brook
So, then, I'm between Venth and NF
Kyrian is really good, I'm just a parse whore
hallow phoenix
how does stacking IP work?
You can have two IPs stacked
sick sentinel
do not play reforged play og wc3