protection

[vivid rain]

to be fair i tank mostly m+

[chilly brook]

Tbh only run DR in raid

[uneven mason]

TGV is very good in M+

DR is the ST DPS talent

so that makes sense.

[cobalt grove]

I went with thunderlord since I don't tank much in raid

Mostly on sun king because our pally tank rolls holy

[vivid rain]

but still if i go thunderlord, im not really that great on bosses in m+ eaither?

[cobalt grove]

Thunderlord is strong damage

If you ran bv, you now have a lower dps CD in demo shout

[chilly brook]

There are people in the top 25 parses on raid bosses with TGV and BV...

Soooooooo

[cobalt grove]

And if you synch avatar and demo, you do 20% more damage and they take 20% more

The wall is a strong defensive option, because of the shield wall CD redux

[warm snow]

Shoulders for the wall?

[chilly brook]

Yes

[warm snow]

Thanks

[red swallow]

I do like the fantasy of being giga big defensively so ill go the wall probably

[clever bronze]

I recall in the early days of Devastator, we'd use a WA to tell us when it was safe to use a GCD without risking a lost or delayed reset. I recall that later simulations showed it was a very tiny rage gain and was essentially useless...

That being said, is it still a good idea to hold GCDs for an auto-attack if it's to dump a bit of Rage on Revenge/Execute?

[red swallow]

Currently just 57 but im enjoying it a lot more than the BfA build

[cobalt grove]

Demo is a 30 or 45s cd?

[steel mauve]

45

[cobalt grove]

So 30 tclaps and demo is back off cd

With thunderlord

So it can be very strong damage if you play it right single target

[uneven mason]

Each TClap uses a GCD

SO, its not 30 Tclaps

[cobalt grove]

Fair

[foggy sedge]

Any prot pvp rbg guide for talents etc?

PVP 🙂

[uneven mason]

Uh

Step 1. SPec ARms

[amber herald]

Can anyone help me with ST dps in m+? Icyveins says to ignore revenge unless it's free but what else am I supposed to press outside of the execute phase?

[uneven mason]

ST??

[amber herald]

single target

[uneven mason]

I mean

ST vs AE

about the same for prot

[chilly brook]

Revenge if you think you're fine

IP if you think you need more damage smoothing

[uneven mason]

Yeah if you're not getting trucked hard enough to need IP

[chilly brook]

It's that simple tbh

[uneven mason]

hit revenge

I mean hell

Condemn is probaby my #1 source of mitigation

[chilly brook]

But shield slam>anything else

[uneven mason]

in M+

[amber herald]

I was hoping that was the answer, easily enough

[mighty valley]

with devastator sometimes you will have empty GCDs, especially if you're using IP

[chilly brook]

Well

[uneven mason]

over SB

[chilly brook]

Lemme fix that

[uneven mason]

cause I condemn over SB in low keys

(yes I know, bad)

[chilly brook]

Covenant ability>shield slam>thunderclap>revenge

[amber herald]

looks cool though

spear can crit pretty high shame that's true

that it's 1m cd

auto correct 🤷‍♂️

[cobalt grove]

For me it really just depends on the incoming damage if I choose dps over mitigation

[chilly brook]

Also hit IP if you're about to use something that's gonna generate rage and are gonna cap

[empty carbon]

does anyone else have a hard time holding threat in mythic +s?

[chilly brook]

No

[hardy fractal]

!stats

[amber herald]

I did before the hotfix

Spam revenge a bit more that's the usual advice given

[chilly brook]

@hardy fractal #268491842637660160

[amber herald]

sounds dumb but it's true

[empty carbon]

I see

[cobalt grove]

If I'm not getting smacked hard, I will happily dps over popping mitigation effects

[empty carbon]

I usually dont revenge unless off a proc

[chilly brook]

Also ilvl>haste>vers>crit>mastery @hardy fractal

[amber herald]

Yeah definitely want to revenge more for aoe threat

[cobalt grove]

As @uneven mason said earlier, and I'm paraphrasing, you can't take damage if what's hitting you is dead

[amber herald]

if SB and IP is up then revenge

if it's not?

revenge anyway it's the healers problem

[uneven mason]

If you don't need IP

like your healer isn't falling behind

hit revenge

[hallow phoenix]

Healers can do crazy throughput already just put it all on them 4head

[chilly brook]

[uneven mason]

^^ Condemn

[uneven mason]

GUys, I found the BrM main

[cobalt grove]

So if I'm reading in between the lines, last stand and just go ham on damage =P

And just hope you kill it before it kills you

[chilly brook]

No but yes

[cobalt grove]

I'm very much being snarky

[uneven mason]

That sounds actually yes

if you have bolster

15seconds of condemn spamming

[hallow phoenix]

I definitely press revenge more often in last stand than out of last stand

Just feel so safe

[chilly brook]

Imagine not playing AM

[cobalt grove]

I play a healer too, so if a tank can handle themselves, I don't care if they use mitigation or not

[finite prairie]

I can't imagine going back to AM now

[cobalt grove]

But if they're getting trucked, I judge them hard for taking so much damage

[hallow phoenix]

Pretty sure I'd die running AM

[chilly brook]

AM+Wall+Shield Wall conduit is pretty pog

[hallow phoenix]

I don't even think I have that conduit

[chilly brook]

Granted I haven't really done anything above an 11 rn

[finite prairie]

@chilly brook you run the wall in m+ right? Whats your SW uptime like? Every other pull-ish?

[chilly brook]

So bolster definitely would be a better move there

[hallow phoenix]

SB downtime in the 15s I've done means death

[chilly brook]

Every about 60 seconds or so

[hallow phoenix]

Every 60 sec does seem tempting though. 8 sec SW / min vs 15 sec bolster / 2 min

[cobalt grove]

So a theorycrafting question here, where does block value fit into mitigation or is it just a relic of the past

[finite prairie]

So you can basically start every pull with SW, spam threat for a sec, then coast on your SB and IP to keep secondnhalf smooth

[hallow phoenix]

It's a multiplicative damage reduction

Calculated with all your other DR

[cobalt grove]

Gotcha, so it still has a usage

[hallow phoenix]

I mean yeah... Everytime you block

[chilly brook]

Like huntsman was a 4:20 fight and I got 3 casts out

[hallow phoenix]

If you're asking about the stat itself it's only found on shields now

[chilly brook]

Probably could get more if I didnt hold shield wall until the second cast of the dot on the dog at the start

[opaque pilot]

is there a suggested slot for thunderlord or does it not really matter?

[finite prairie]

Ah yeah I was specifically asking about m+ trying to decide if I keep using TL in there

[chilly brook]

But tbh the wall is nuts

[hallow phoenix]

Boots but some people like to clap with their hands

[sweet summit]

who is darkee 👀

[cobalt grove]

Since block is a flat either 30 or 60% mitigation, I was wondering how block value fit into that calculation

[chilly brook]

It's up super often in m+

[chilly brook]

Its lightee

[acoustic stratus]

221 ilvl jesus

[sweet summit]

it was a joke but ok :/

[chilly brook]

Who's rosjen

[sweet summit]

its me !

[chilly brook]

No you're Erga

[sweet summit]

oh right

[hallow phoenix]

Block isn't necessarily 30 or 60%

[sweet summit]

block/(block+k)

[opaque pilot]

thanks!

[acoustic stratus]

is it worth using sb with shield wall up

[hallow phoenix]

^

[sweet summit]

it might be

depending on damage intake

usually SW is enough

[chilly brook]

Most of the time I use SW as a buffer for shield block to regain charges

[acoustic stratus]

like im doing DOS and those mobs hit like a truck

i just die

[cobalt grove]

The k value is the constant depending on boss level right?

[chilly brook]

Which mobs

[sweet summit]

they have like an instant magic damag enuke

fuc kem

[near quarry]

Anyone got tips for gathering caster mobs as prot war? Did Sun King last night and gathering mobs felt like a bitch. used to play prot pal and the silence shield always made that shit easy

[chilly brook]

If they're enraged you shouldn't face tank them

[sweet summit]

Level 60 K-values
Base/open world: 2500
M0/M+: 2455.0
Castle Nathria LFR: 2500.0
Castle Nathria Normal: 2662.5
Castle Nathria Heroic: 2845.0
Castle Nathria Mythic: 3050.0

[acoustic stratus]

the big pack of mobs at the entrance of every entrance

[chilly brook]

Each of those packs is different

[acoustic stratus]

and they all fucking hurt

[hallow phoenix]

Your dps need to help you kick

[chilly brook]

If they're the big axe guys kite when enraged

[cobalt grove]

@sweet summit thank you for that

[acoustic stratus]

the scribe guys just wrecked me

[chilly brook]

If it's the caster bois your group needs to not be shit and kick scribe instead of lotus

[acoustic stratus]

is it worth running menace with the conduit in m+ if you're in pugs?

[hallow phoenix]

Reflect shadowcore too

[acoustic stratus]

for the extra cc

[chilly brook]

No

[sweet summit]

does menace make intim shout "work" on undeads?

[acoustic stratus]

i just want the knockback

[hallow phoenix]

Intim already works on some undead

[sweet summit]

[acoustic stratus]

and the damage resistance on the mobs sounds useful

if they aint hitting me all the better

[chilly brook]

If they pull extra stuff you're dead

[hallow phoenix]

You give up stormbolt

Stormbolt good

[sweet summit]

not for menace

[acoustic stratus]

i take the shockwave talent anyway

[hallow phoenix]

Oh

[sweet summit]

oh take storm bolt

[chilly brook]

Stop

[sweet summit]

its insane

[hallow phoenix]

Right double time is there

[sweet summit]

like

[chilly brook]

Take storm bolt

[sweet summit]

god tier talent

[chilly brook]

Way more valuable

[acoustic stratus]

in pugs i think shockwave cd is better

[hallow phoenix]

What's on menace row and why isn't it menace on the cc row

[chilly brook]

It's not

Smh

[acoustic stratus]

it has been for me

[chilly brook]

Having less control when you have no control of the group is better how?

[hallow phoenix]

I swear it used to be menace

[acoustic stratus]

having shockwave up quicker has just worked better for me

[chilly brook]

Stormbolt literally gives you more opportunity to stop bad things

[sweet summit]

coudlve in bfa, memory bad. never swapped off SB

[hallow phoenix]

It was bfa! Had to swap to it for siege and losing bolt sucked

[chilly brook]

Probably worked better because you're not actually using stormbolt....

[acoustic stratus]

ive used both

[hallow phoenix]

Stormbolt is another kick at worst

[chilly brook]

Most of the scary things in m+ are single mob nukes

It's literally better to have stormbolt as an extra kick

[hallow phoenix]

And one of the stronger stuns at best

[chilly brook]

^^^^

And having more CC>than less

Especially when that less is a mediocre aoe stun

[acoustic stratus]

how is stopping mutliple targets mediocre

[chilly brook]

Shockwave is literally only good for a small gap maker or to sync up casts

[hallow phoenix]

Because you don't need 15 seconds off shockwave

[chilly brook]

Neither of which you need the small reduction of CD for

Not to mention

[hallow phoenix]

By the time you can shockwave again half the mobs will be stun DRed

[chilly brook]

You're screwing everyone's good CCs with DR

For a very weak stun

You should use shockwave you shouldn't use anything that reduces its CD because there are better options

[hallow phoenix]

I use the 8 seconds off SW cd conduit

I think it's a finesse one

The catch being my group only has three stuns, two of which are mine

[chilly brook]

Inspiring Presence is better

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Imo anyways

Safeguard would even be more useful imo on a lot of these fights

In m+

[hallow phoenix]

Probably, but we have a serious lack of stuns

Rsham and me

[chilly brook]

Safeguard on caster boi in ToP for example would be poggers

[hallow phoenix]

Wouldn't that take you out of melee range

[chilly brook]

You can kick the cast

And be back in before it goes off

[hallow phoenix]

Can you reflect it

[chilly brook]

Idk

Iirc its group wide damage

[hallow phoenix]

Lame

[chilly brook]

But you can game the cast if your healer is struggling because so much aoe damage

[acoustic stratus]

i swear its casted that ability on me when im literally inside her model

[chilly brook]

I.e. dipping out so he has one less thing to worry about

[acoustic stratus]

is it a bug?

[chilly brook]

You just have to rotate kicks and be back in before the last one is out

[acoustic stratus]

kotharak in ToP

[hallow phoenix]

I've never seen that nyl

[chilly brook]

Cant say whether bugged or not never had that happen

[acoustic stratus]

i got hit with the out of range thing when im in the model

[hallow phoenix]

Were you hit by a tornado

[acoustic stratus]

maybe that was it

[hallow phoenix]

Storming causes all sorts of issues

[chilly brook]

If you dip out of range

And he casts

It doesn't stop if you come back in range

You gotta kick it

[hallow phoenix]

It stopped one of our dps from entering the arena on that one boss

So the other dps had to wait for a minute

[acoustic stratus]

also on stitchflesh

sometimes he doesnt get hooked

[hallow phoenix]

It also deleted the swirly animation on last boss mists. Just completely got rid of the animation and wiped us

Great affix, finished game

[chilly brook]

Storming is so ass

Like

Arena boss

[acoustic stratus]

this weeks affix isnt much better

[uneven mason]

Y SO BRIGHT LIGTNING

This weeks affix is cancer

[chilly brook]

Both one kills banner so you go to leap otherwise you're gonna get hit

But a tornado spawns

Hits you mid air

[uneven mason]

but apperntly if you CC the adds they just disappear

[chilly brook]

And you eat the fucking mechanic anyways

[acoustic stratus]

the banner had massive health on tyrannical, like a shitton

[uneven mason]

Y so bad Griff

[chilly brook]

Because

Like look at this

Only 98% of shield slam casts

[uneven mason]

O HOHOHO

[hallow phoenix]

Explain dragon roar 103%

[uneven mason]

BUt 103% DR

[chilly brook]

Idk

[sweet summit]

hacking

[uneven mason]

We have a new 72%

[sweet summit]

clearly

[hallow phoenix]

Reported

[uneven mason]

Its 103% Dragon

[acoustic stratus]

wasnt DR nerfed

[sweet summit]

yes

on aoe

[uneven mason]

its still strongest ST damage

[chilly brook]

DR is still good in single target

Was like a 90 dps gain over BV for me

[uneven mason]

are you running iTF tho

[chilly brook]

Yep

[uneven mason]

👏

[hallow phoenix]

Man I miss prot in raids

[chilly brook]

I actually run itf in keys

[acoustic stratus]

im using tc leggo so bv is the way

[chilly brook]

I'm an ITF proponent

[sweet summit]

yeeees duuuude

[acoustic stratus]

you aint as crazy as the BR warrior who goes never surrender heavy repuc

[sweet summit]

[hallow phoenix]

Yikes

[acoustic stratus]

hey, hes one of the top io tanks

[hallow phoenix]

It's the third week of xpac during holidays

[chilly brook]

You could say that ITF just works

[acoustic stratus]

if it works it works

guess he uses IP as a last resort

[chilly brook]

Tbh

Never surrender does give you some stupid IP

Still meh though

Indom is a better talent

[acoustic stratus]

builds rage then always has a giant rage pool for ip while keeping sb up

makes sense

[chilly brook]

Doesnt make sense

You still take damage with IP

Indom just gives you 17k IPs instead of 13k

[uneven mason]

NS

[chilly brook]

Sorry NS

Yes I'm big dumb

[uneven mason]

Needs 1 change to be a competitive talent

[acoustic stratus]

wouldnt Never surrender be good on huntsmen

[uneven mason]

and that is to also increase the absorb per hit %

[chilly brook]

Yes I've done keys with NS

[uneven mason]

by 40-100%

We know

[chilly brook]

Because I'm dumb

[uneven mason]

We laughed

[chilly brook]

And accidentally talented it

[chilly brook]

No

Why would it be good on huntsman

[uneven mason]

If it like, made IP into a 90% absorb again

[chilly brook]

Then we'd be talkin lol

[uneven mason]

yeah

[chilly brook]

90% absorb and much higher stack value

📈

[uneven mason]

Never Surrender gives us legion IP back

[acoustic stratus]

IP shouldnt have an absorb limit

[uneven mason]

we'd be rolling in that shit like a cat who found rabbit crap

[chilly brook]

I mean sure

It shouldn't have an absorb limit

[uneven mason]

They're trying to avoid Legion Prot

[chilly brook]

If it was actually our mitigation

But it's not

[acoustic stratus]

i liked legion prot though

[uneven mason]

Everyone liked Legion prot

[chilly brook]

A lot of people did

[uneven mason]

we were near unkillable

[acoustic stratus]

i think bears beat us there

[chilly brook]

Recklessness Shield Slam spam

[uneven mason]

My favorite was when finding out IP didn't count as a heal on Varimathras at first

Battle Cry

Berserker Rage 2p 21 4p 20

UNLIMITED POWAHHHH

[chilly brook]

How about spell reflecting the knockback in Nelths Lair

And trolling your group

[uneven mason]

How about blocking Aggramar's full combo

[chilly brook]

Or laughing at Argus

Was your tank buster supposed to hurt

[uneven mason]

40stacks, O NELTHARIONS FURY IS OFF CD!! That'll be 43

[acoustic stratus]

sludgefists sure does

i wanted to keep neltharions

[uneven mason]

7 digit blocks

mmm the fun times

[acoustic stratus]

was a cool looking ability

[chilly brook]

Neltharions Fury was like 7/10ths of the way to being a good ability

It didnt do good damage

[uneven mason]

But the assured crit blicks

[chilly brook]

And it made you stand still

[uneven mason]

were sure fun to cheese mechanics

[chilly brook]

But defensively it was cool

All it really needed was to let you move

And I'd have been happy

Would be really nice to have a way to assure crit blocks again

[acoustic stratus]

inb4 set bonus next tier gives sb crit block

[chilly brook]

Its great when you got shield block rolling and IP and shriekwings bite just doesnt do anything

Shit in raid hurts like a bitch without block though tbh

[acoustic stratus]

I did a DOS key and muezalah was pounding my face in

[uneven mason]

Imagine how the non plate tanks feel

[chilly brook]

Muezalah does nothing outside of his tank buster tbh

[uneven mason]

Watching my guilds VDH

on Sludge

[chilly brook]

And that you want to mitigate as much as possible

[uneven mason]

was nailbiting

[chilly brook]

Because the dot component is tied to the main hit

[acoustic stratus]

can you reflect anything on that boss

[uneven mason]

Can't you SR the debuff?

to negate it

[chilly brook]

Not sure if you can or not

Also RIP to my one deflect in raid

[acoustic stratus]

guide says soulcrush and master of death is reflectabler

[uneven mason]

Soulcrusher right?

yea deflectable

[chilly brook]

Yea so just block and SR

Ez

[uneven mason]

not blockable

[chilly brook]

Iirc SR should be up for everyone or it's really close

[acoustic stratus]

what about dealer

[uneven mason]

just SR DS IP

[acoustic stratus]

i feel like im near dead constantly

[chilly brook]

The initial hit is physical though?

[acoustic stratus]

i know you can reflect the bombs

[astral crystal]

make sure your party is trading the debuff

[uneven mason]

watch that vunribility debuff

[astral crystal]

you're gonna get dunked on if you have 20 stacks

[acoustic stratus]

the lightning arc?

[uneven mason]

yes

you can deflect it

[acoustic stratus]

the only other boss that ive had trouble with was torvald

castigate just straight up kills people

[astral crystal]

yeah he trucks

anyone tried it after the change to his dmg ticks?

[acoustic stratus]

i felt no difference

[chilly brook]

Which one is torvald

First boss of mists?

[astral crystal]

second from depths

[chilly brook]

Oh

Ye

He hurts

But usually he only hurts for me when the add doesnt die

[acoustic stratus]

i feel the higher the key i go the more i should have built the wall other than thunderlords

[chilly brook]

Eh

Granted I really like the wall

But I think on weeks like this week TGV is definitely the play

[acoustic stratus]

limit killed sire

[astral crystal]

nice

[acoustic stratus]

world first with prot woo

[astral crystal]

they had so many close calls

[chilly brook]

Imagine being EU

What a joke

[sweet summit]

EU>NA but Limit>Echo

[lavish oracle]

Lightee calling brew the worst tank by far, what a hot take

[undone jacinth]

first race potentially decided by reset time

feels bad

[sweet summit]

perfect time for holidays

calculated

[lavish oracle]

Nah, I don't think so. So many bugged bosses, lots of extra maintenance for NA

[undone jacinth]

none of that applies to this reset

its the 2nd one that matters not the first

they had a full day to reclear and prog

[lavish oracle]

Don't agree

Echo was still progging yesterday too

[undone jacinth]

no they werent lol

naowh was streaming

doing m+

[lavish oracle]

if they had recleared and immediately killed, sure

[undone jacinth]

its the same principle

in previous tiers its just been clear that limit or echo are way ahead of the other, this was the only one that was this close and affected by the reset

[steep wraith]

assuming that echo kill it within 24 hours

well, not even 24 hours is it

[deft vessel]

this would be the second week in which I don't pick my 220 piece -.- last week a shitty trinket, this week a shitty ring

i guess the ring isn't that bad but it's still a ring

[astral crystal]

lmao mastery is bugged?

darkiee said it gives 2x amount

[sweet summit]

scale scale scalescale scale salce

[deft vessel]

yeah thinking the same

rings:

trinkets

[sweet summit]

anime+scale=YUGE

you can farm better rings

[prisma star]

field emitter or decanter?

[sweet summit]

anime

[prisma star]

they both have anima in the name

[sweet summit]

haste

[astral crystal]

decanter is the denathrius trink? it's pretty good too, smaller shield than scale, but it's 1 min cd

like an extra healthstone

[deft vessel]

decanter is a sanguine depths damage proc trinket

and Erga is referring to the anima field emitter

[astral crystal]

o nvm

[prisma star]

i see

[astral crystal]

sd trink sucks

[deft vessel]

it's been..okay

[red bronze]

man ignore pain needs a buff

this shit sucks

[deft vessel]

huh?

it doesn't suck tho? lol

[muted pendant]

Its just that the moment u have to press it it’s gone 😂

[fossil summit]

what are the main defensives prot uses? Ignore Pain I guess, but do you also use Shield Block?

[steel mauve]

shield block is the main defensive

ip is just used to smooth out damage and to dump rage

[hasty crypt]

Quick question, hows Slimy Consumptive Organ? Got it in 203 but not sure I like it tbh

[steel mauve]

revenge also being a rage dump but more used for threat or to not cap rage

[fossil summit]

thats another thing, whats the best way to engage a HUGE pull of like 15+ mobs in dungeons, and actually KEEP aggro?

with Prot Pally I used to just consecration and boom im all good

[hasty crypt]

Avatar > Clap for days

[fossil summit]

I need to get accustomed to the more proactive playstyle,

With Pally you just heal yourself which was nice to be fair because I never trust pug healers, but with Warrior there's no self sustain unless you actually LAST HIT something so you gotta preemptively make sure you're never unhealthy

[steel mauve]

revenge over tclap in terms of dmg/threat, tclap was nerfed, and you dont use UF any more either

[deft vessel]

tclap + revenge is usually enough to establish threat in most situations, further assisted by ravager and taunt of course

[steel mauve]

currently we are really strong defensively, so its usually not a problem, but every tank relies on a healer, just they have different ways of smoothing out damage, ours is proactive where as others are reactive with their heals

[deft vessel]

then use as normal throughout rotation depending on rage/danger

[steel mauve]

i rarely ever have threat issues myself, occasionally when i go into a 5 target pull and dont have ravager ill lose 1 mob, but taunt clears that up

[fossil summit]

so Shield Block over Ignore Pain, uh?

[undone sun]

it has a higher priority, but not exclusive

[steel mauve]

shield block when taking any blockable damage, IP to smooth damage and dump rage, but you usually use both at the same time

you gen enough rage to do so any ways

[fossil summit]

as a LF Draenei is it ever okay to use my Orbital Strike?

it does insane dmg even as a tank I noticed

[deep steppe]

Grats to Limit, Grats to Prot war world first babyyyy 😎

[torpid granite]

tis the wall 100% drop?

[deft vessel]

yes, the legendary power is 100% drop rate

you can even get it in LFR

[fossil summit]

so The Wall is BiS, is Thunderlord also good

[steel mauve]

the wall is good for m+ better for raid (some people like it more for m+ as well), thunderlord is really strong for m+ but worse for raid on bosses without constant aoe

[nova rover]

Can you post what your macro would look like? I cannot get mine to work

[sweet summit]

#showtooltip
/cast [@targettarget] intervene

[nova rover]

Thank you

[burnt yew]

controversial opinion: Leaper is the BIS M+ legendary right now

kiting seems reallll important

[lavish oracle]

with the Wall you have to kite less, though

like, shield wall up, you basically don't have to kite anything

minus like

some very spooky mobs

[midnight stone]

You shouldn't need the additional leaps to kite effectively though

The only situations I can see Leaper being 'better' is if your DPS is lacking and you have to kite for an extended period of time (not ideal)

(which is still a very plausible scenario)

[lavish oracle]

yeah, between like spear, leap, shockwave and normal group utility, I'm definitely not having trouble getting out

and intervene, tbh

[midnight stone]

Yeah, intervene is an underrated kiting tool

[nimble plover]

Guys how high would u rate [Relic of the First Ones] for m+?

Oh wait, this doesnt mean its SoB

right?

[distant crystal]

Nah details showed 1 hit from that mob, I guess I must've given him my back or something

[lavish oracle]

Yeah, signature ability is call steward, I think

so like

[keen pivot]

Hi all, I find I am being crushed in 7+ dungeons, and I'm too chicken to tank 10+, I just seem so squishy. I run these dungeons perfectly fine as dps. My ilvl as prot is 200, not the best tank convenent (venthyr because I am dps raid main). I don't know what I am doing wrong for survivability.

[lavish oracle]

very bad

[nimble plover]

@keen pivot On mobs or bosses?

[ionic fern]

Do you have logs?

Or a VoD?

[keen pivot]

Trash on fortified mostly,

[ruby tinsel]

Hey guys new to tanking this season and doing it for m+, how’s prot warrior looking?

[keen pivot]

I don't have dungeon logs unfortunately

[ionic fern]

We're looking good. 🙂 Just need to run the correct setup of talents and legendaries.

[lavish oracle]

Solidly middle of the pack

[nimble plover]

I used to tank alot of 15+ mythics back in the day. Dealing with trash is all about stunning/slowing/kiting and avoiding dmg. At higher level mythics some trash is untankable if u just stand there and the grp doesnt help

[ruby tinsel]

Which leggo for m+?

[lavish oracle]

The Wall and TLord's are pretty close

[keen pivot]

I should say, I tanked and timed 15+ all the time with no problems in BFA.

[lavish oracle]

you'll probably end up leveling both anyways, just pick the one that meshes with your playstyle better atm

[nimble plover]

If u have 200 ilvl and struggling on +7, most likely the group isnt doing what they are supposed to. (Considering you have that kind of tanking experience i will rule out that you do beginner mistakes 😛 )

[midnight stone]

tanking requirements go up when damage is inadequate

at 200 you should be more than capable of handling 7s, any pretty much anything up to 12 provided the group is geared/playing appropriately

[amber herald]

Tanks have to kite some packs now unlike in BFA

which packs are deleting you?

[nimble plover]

Low dmg/not interrupting certain spells/stunning = tanking issues

or bad healer

[midnight stone]

Are you finding that you're dying through SB/IP? Or is this a case of once SB drops, you drop as well

[keen pivot]

My health just drops a lot, I seem to end up tanking at 30-50% most of the time (grievous is not helping with that this week either)

[mighty valley]

overall think there are more important interrupts in shadowlands than BFA so bad groups can kill tanks more easily

[amber herald]

hard to say without knowing what packs you were on

[keen pivot]

I might be using Revenge too often, trying to kill things quicker, and not using IP enough.

[tepid barn]

stop using revenge

[amber herald]

could be dps not interuppting key abilities or it could be you're mis-timing you're mitigation with abilities as well

[mighty valley]

use big CDs early and liberally for the worst trash pulls

[tepid barn]

only cast revenge if its free

[keen pivot]

I failed a timer by about 4 min on DOS7 last night, all bosses were easy and fairly quick 1 shots

[mighty valley]

DOS had the tightest timer until hotfix to be fair

[amber herald]

gonna need to cast revenge to have enough threat in keys

[tepid barn]

what ilvl? @keen pivot

[nimble plover]

I mean u can be 250 ilvl and struggle at +7 if the group is shit

[chilly brook]

No but yes it's completely possible to overcast it

[keen pivot]

I tend to use Avatar + Demoral (with booming voice) at the same time for dps, particularly harder packs, should I stagger them more often? 200 @tepid barn

[chilly brook]

Revenge is very nuanced

You either are taking enough damage where you need to cast IP

[amber herald]

also if you're running anger management build try bolster/ravager

[chilly brook]

Or you're chill and you can cast revenge

[amber herald]

it's much tankier

[chilly brook]

Theres a lot of that last btw

Just have to get a feeling for the mobs and bosses

[keen pivot]

btw I am using 200 Brutal Vitality and 200 Show of Force conduits

@amber herald I am using AM and Unstoppable force, maybe I am still so used to late BFA massive prot aoe dps with all of those CDs together.

[steel mauve]

you dont use unstoppable any more, ravager is better, and bolster is better surv, am is offensive

[nimble plover]

really??

[ionic fern]

Yes.

[chilly brook]

Lol yes

[nimble plover]

I thought unstoppable force was better for m+

[chilly brook]

Y'all need to read the talent section in the guides

[steel mauve]

not since they nerfed aoe abilities

[keen pivot]

So maybe try bolster and ravager for better survivability? (though wouldn't into the fray be better for survivability, more haste more rage?)

[chilly brook]

There's a writeup for a reason

[steel mauve]

all this info gets updated at the start of every expansion and with every patch that changes stuff

[chilly brook]

Most will say that ravager is the play for defense in m+

I'm a proponent of ITF

[steel mauve]

ravager does more dps than UF due to a higher cap of enemies, and it gets 60 rage every 45 seconds

[mighty valley]

to be fair the icy veins guide still rates UF highly

[chilly brook]

But I haven't had the opportunity to log runs to get a solid idea of the actual rage difference

[steel mauve]

itf is better in raids on single/lower aoe bosses

[mighty valley]

i'm a recent ravager convert though, it rips

[nimble plover]

I mean the guide rates UF pretty high? Thats why i asked

[keen pivot]

The pinned write up is the wowhead guide, which I use, but maybe I did not pay enough attention to the prot right up, my main raid role is dps. The basic talent build is the AM, UF one I have been using (same as BFA)

[undone sun]

IV and WH are two different writers so take that as you will

[chilly brook]

Does it actually?

Doesn't seem like a high rating to me

[ionic fern]

m,+ guide

doesnt have it

Suggest bolster/rav

[mighty valley]

this does not say "definitely take ravager" so i'm not surprised people ask the question

[amber herald]

In higher keys you need bolster to be able to dps because of the 15 seconds of SB

[mighty valley]

it even says "undeniable synergy with AM"

[amber herald]

let's you be relatively safe while you pop avatar and spam revenge

[steel mauve]

Below are the suggested talents for Mythic+. While Anger Management Icon Anger Management and Unstoppable Force Icon Unstoppable Force are solid talents, you should swap them out for Ravager Icon Ravager and Bolster Icon Bolster as you progress into the higher keystone levels. The extra defensive benefit gained from those two will make your dungeons a lot easier and smoother. For more information on particular talents and when to use them, refer to the Builds and Talents page.

thats from the mythic + guide on the prot warrior icyveins guide

[chilly brook]

Also theres the m+ section soooooo

[mighty valley]

you are expecting a lot from an audience that asks "TL vs The Wall" six hundred times a day

[chilly brook]

Yes with AM

[steel mauve]

the talent builds section is for raiding/general play, the mythic plus section also needs to be read

[chilly brook]

Because it does have synergy

Doesnt mean it's the best

[steel mauve]

undeniable synergy, doesnt mean its highly rated, a talent working with another takent doesnt exxactly mean much

[chilly brook]

[amber herald]

I use wall leggo with ravager/bolster for m+

Personally I think that's the better build

[ionic fern]

You do you.

[chilly brook]

That's an actual question though because there are arguments for both

[mighty valley]

with an answer in the FAQ

[chilly brook]

In the long run it wont matter because you'll use both

Sure there's an answer, but in this case theres an argument for the wall in m+

And you could easily get away with running TGV in raid

[amber herald]

Is there something wrong with that build? I'd rather know if there is

weird full stop usage

[ionic fern]

Lemme finish dungeon

And i'll explain

[open monolith]

Wall without AM is just not as good as TL

Wall with AM can be similarly good

[amber herald]

I'm doing 11+ keys, I feel like the more frequent SW is needed for tanking hard packs after another

[ionic fern]

100% not.

[amber herald]

I have both legendaries by the way, played both

[ionic fern]

People only see "Oh, such a low CD on SW, so good" BUT they don't use it on CD.

Meanwhile DS gets used literally on CD

[chilly brook]

I've been using shield wall on CD it feels great

[amber herald]

That's sort of my own thinking except I came to the conclusion wall is the way to go

[open monolith]

Anyone else spamming +7 DOS?

[amber herald]

On higher keys I'm needing shield wall way more

[open monolith]

Im running it til i have a 200 hakkar trinket and 200 death god

[ionic fern]

I'm doing 13s atm

No need for SW

[open monolith]

What's your ilvl mwahi

[nimble plover]

I got a (dumb) question. I got Sinful trinkets only atm. 207 with str and a 184 with haste. Should I replace any of them with the Darkmoon trinket?

[ionic fern]

202

[steel mauve]

darkmoon indom is trash

the dps one is decent for dps and some surv with the haste, but i probably wouldnt spend money on it unless you had far weaker trinkets

[ionic fern]

I mean i ofc USE SW on keys but i'm not like "Oh shit..i need more SW"

[nimble plover]

Ok thanks

[open monolith]

You wanna know what trinket has relieved several headaches for me and saved several keys? Kael'Thas trinket Lol

So good for pugs

[mighty valley]

oh yeah phoenix heart is actually pretty good

just gotta avoid standing on all the melee when you might die lmao

[open monolith]

Like, it's objectively dog shit for organized groups

But for pugs

https://tenor.com/view/pacha-perfect-emperors-new-groove-very-good-gif-5346522

[mighty valley]

was getting a newbie guild healer a +10 for the vault and was v glad to have it

[tender imp]

wall is better for m+ too. dont at me

tl is bait legendary

[open monolith]

That's just objectively wrong :)

Wall is great. TL also great

[ionic fern]

People are dum dum

[grand drum]

uncapped TL in beta never forget

[mighty valley]

there should be a separate channel where people can express their very strong wall vs tl feelings

[tender imp]

im correct you are wrong.

[open monolith]

I love TL

People frequently forget Demo shout also lowers inc damage lol

Anywho, poor troll attempt is poor

Hush your face

[amber herald]

I'm still keeping the wall for now

[ionic fern]

Both work.

There's no wrong answer.

[amber herald]

What is with the fullstops man

you're scaring me

calling the police

[open monolith]

I will say though... If you're gonna rock the wall, you should strongly consider AM

I know bolster is amazing

But wall + AM is like... What, nearly 60 sec CD sw?

If you play properly

[tender imp]

sounds good on paper. but bolster is far better to have

u cant not play bolster

[open monolith]

I mean, you absolutely can play without bolster lol.

[tender imp]

sure, in trivial content.

[open monolith]

Errr

In +14s

[tender imp]

trivial like i said

[open monolith]

Was watching... Was it darkee?

Can't remember.

[amber herald]

SW doesn't have the rage conduit

that's one thing I suppose

[open monolith]

Oh that's the 3rd piece

If you're running the wall

You should run SW cd conduit

Since all of our conduits are trash anyway

[amber herald]

makes sense

[spare cobalt]

@ionic fern do you go over key logs at all?

[amber herald]

Gonna do some keys with thunderlord and see again

[spare cobalt]

I’m working up into like 14/15s but still feel like I misplay a ton tbh

[red swallow]

Anything i should pay attention to on details after dongers? Uptime/damage taken n stuff?

[lusty marsh]

WOOO I did the impossible.

Completed a kyrian soul ash mission and made t4 wall

[open monolith]

Nice bruh

[spare cobalt]

@red swallow I usually just try to go back and look at packs that are owning me or the group and why

[open monolith]

Which companions

And don't say meatball

Or I'll get mad

Because meatball doesn't exist

[red swallow]

Perhaps a good idea for me to record some of my "higher" keys then 🤔

I legit got 0 memory

[spare cobalt]

I’ve done em all a good amount now but at first there was times at the beginning I’d flop unexpectedly or the group would get owned on a pull

So it’s like I’d go and see what happened and learn if there’s a counter play or I missed something

[red swallow]

Ye ive noticed that when playing healer, im maining rdruid but wanna do some tanking aswell

and prot looks sick so ive been trying to learn it a bit

[spare cobalt]

It took me like 3x cause I learn slow

[steel mauve]

But i have meatball, i can assure you he does exist!

[spare cobalt]

To figure out that the shadow core kick in DOS outside hakkar, will one clap you on fort at higher keys basically lol @red swallow

[open monolith]

Nope

[stray sierra]

does anyone have a WA for m+ affixes?

[open monolith]

Doesn't exist

[stray sierra]

like necrotic/grevious

etc

[spare cobalt]

Just things like that

[red swallow]

right now i am just inting dungeons to see what i can and cant SR YEP

[lusty marsh]

I did use meatball, but only as a shield. a vanguard would have done the same job

[spare cobalt]

Yeah it was a lot of trial and error ngl

Now it’s like I wanna go back and check and see how right I’m playing as far as warrior goes

Starting out even with not the best dps you can push high if you play the mobs clean if that makes sense, and that’ll take you further

[red swallow]

My group of irl friends are pretty pepega so we struggle on 8s lmao but its fun atleast

[lusty marsh]

Phalanx Kleia kythekios back row nemea pelagos

[spare cobalt]

@red swallow oh yeah haha it’s a blast as long as people don’t int

I love learning

[dense flame]

Tanking keys can be frustrating till you learn that it’s not your fault always

You aren’t invincible if your dps are apes

[red swallow]

I big chill always

[lusty marsh]

levels 22 24 27 26 28

[dense flame]

Tbh same. Fuck it ppl leave for variety of reasons

[wooden radish]

@ionic fern hello

[lavish oracle]

a lot of your survivability in keys relies on you being able to effectively wrangle DPS into doing the right things to keep you alive 😄

[steel mauve]

See! Meatball! @open monolith

[open monolith]

nice doctored screen shot

we all know meatball isn't real

[lavish oracle]

Wait, does sock not have meatball?

sad

[steel mauve]

Pathetic, i know

[wooden radish]

@warm plinth what’s up pinky

[tepid nest]

hi guys, im sure you get asked this question a thousand times a day, which slot should i craft thunderlords on?

and a follow up question, if my goal is just to tank m+ and not raid, do i need any other legendary>

[wooden radish]

You can follow your sims or craft it on the highest budget slot.

[tepid nest]

feet and hands are similar budget, right?

[wooden radish]

And you might want the wall. It’s good for high keys defensively

[tepid nest]

ok brilliant, thanks lincoln

[wooden radish]

Feet is higher

[tepid nest]

is it? great

[undone sun]

https://i.imgur.com/VdlMJqD.png

[tepid nest]

thanks thyme

[lapis bay]

does anyone have a pawn stat weight string? the default one has haste lower than mastery / verst so i feel like thats wrong

[undone sun]

don't use pawn

[wooden radish]

Don’t use pawn

[lapis bay]

what can i use to optimize?

[tepid nest]

stat weights like that dont really work for tanks, at least defensively

[wooden radish]

Raidbots or follow the generic priority

Item level is king which invalidates pawn in most cases

[lapis bay]

im trying to follow the priority but im trying to decide at what point str outweights haste

like 5 str or 30 haste

5 str or 70 haste

etc

how come ilvl is king?

[tepid nest]

str doesnt outweigh stats

[lapis bay]

if str doesnt outweight haste, then wouldnt lower ilvl stuff with haste win?

[tepid nest]

str is worse than stats according to the wowhead guide, right?

[lapis bay]

yeah it is

[tepid nest]

secondaries in general are stronger

thats my understanding

[wooden radish]

This sounds wrong to me

[lapis bay]

so even if it was like 100 str, 5 haste would still win?

im trying to find the cutoff

[lavish oracle]

1. you get way more primary stat per ilvl than you do secondaries and 2) str is very good for us, especially after the vanguard buff

[tepid nest]

ahh ok, thats my bad

[wooden radish]

Item level is the best. I assume he means strength for gems

[lavish oracle]

Unless you're looking at a piece without str on it, basically ignore secondaries and just pick ilvl

[lapis bay]

but all str provides is extra dmg, right?

[wooden radish]

Armor

[lapis bay]

ah

[steel mauve]

Haste for gems, str/armor/stam all ewuates into it, but higher ilvl doesnt just mean better primaries

[wooden radish]

Strength is armor for a warrior

[lavish oracle]

No, it provides armor 1:1 and our IP scales with attack power

so does parry

[steel mauve]

All our secondaries are extremely close together haste is just better, we are the definition of quantity over quality, more stats is better than specific stats

[lapis bay]

so a 210 piece without haste, is better than a 207 with haste/vers?

[lavish oracle]

Yes

assuming its a slot with primaries

[lapis bay]

yeah it is

[steel mauve]

Depends on slot

[lapis bay]

gloves

[steel mauve]

Neck/ring i would consider the haste, every thing else is ilvl

[lapis bay]

gotcha understood

thanks fellas

[steel mauve]

But honestly, that close you probably wont even notice a difference in performance

But yes, secondaries are much stronger this expansion because of the squish, they mean more in terms of % per point

Also, just for information (pawn is a garbage worthless addon) generic/default stat weights dont work and thats not an effective way to use stat weights, literally every persons "stat weights" (also not a good thing to effectively use) are different, your stat weights change with every single piece of gear you upgrade

[junior jolt]

Any prot wars here that do 15 keys?

[hallow phoenix]

I've done some 14s and 15s

[junior jolt]

u timed a few ye?

[hallow phoenix]

No timed 15, we kept getting spires...

[junior jolt]

you having issues with fortified? Trash hits so hard

Atm groups just asking for DH Tank only

[hallow phoenix]

I prefer it over tyrannical any day

Mobs slap but there are ways to move with the slaps so you don't get hurt

[junior jolt]

Tyrannical felt easier, atm im 212 equipped and well trash can kill me in 2s

[lusty marsh]

I've done 10 at the most

I imagine the pool of wars that do 14/15 atm is pretty small

[junior jolt]

then I watch a stream and monks, guardian druids and DH can face tank mobs

[hallow phoenix]

Use CDs liberally, communicate with your team to kite

Kiting is important on fort

[junior jolt]

yeah I know that dude, but then im kiting all the time, never gonna time

[lavish oracle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7FK-MM-wAM

[lusty marsh]

Yeah fort packs are no joke even for the other tanks

[lavish oracle]

looks like Sense has timed a few 15s

the damage intake doesn't seem like

insane

[junior jolt]

im not talking about completing depleted keys, im talking about timing keys

[hallow phoenix]

Want ilvl are you

[junior jolt]

which affix is this?

in vid

[lavish oracle]

You can see them in the top right

on the addon

it's this week

[hallow phoenix]

Nothing has really "wtf wow I stood no chance" deleted me

And I'm still using a 190 shield

[junior jolt]

im 212 equipped ilvl

done a few 16s

1150+ rio

[hallow phoenix]

Only time I'm ever in danger is when SB runs out or dps stops kicking

Except for some packs in DoS

[junior jolt]

yeah thats pretty much where the issue is

Shield block

without it, squish

[lavish oracle]

Yeah, seems like you just have to be mindful of when it runs out/build in some time for SB to recharge when you don't have anything to fill the gaps

Well, like, the royal you, not you personally

I have no idea how you play

[cinder nova]

Wish Prot got howl

It'd make kiting easier

[warm plinth]

Hi cutie pie

[lavish oracle]

if we had howl, I feel like we'd be busted

[junior jolt]

i think they shud make the bolster talent baseline

[lavish oracle]

I feel like AM should be baseline

[cinder nova]

Nah. Howl wouldn't be a busted change

[lavish oracle]

it's so iconic

[cinder nova]

AM should be baseline and you should talent into making it better

So give us a weaker version of the talent

spec into making it stronker

[junior jolt]

AM is soo good I miss it

but bolster is just I cant live without it

[cinder nova]

Yeah at high keys you just crumble without viable kiting or SB

[junior jolt]

yeah i get slaughtered

I see a vid of a monk / veng dh just face tanking the hardest mobs

much easier for dps to nukem etc

[cinder nova]

DH has a set of abilities that enables them to have almost complete uptime on brand

Which is no small amount of DR

[junior jolt]

yeah its pretty nuts

[cinder nova]

Monk stagger is autopilot practically

[junior jolt]

fel dev and your god mode

yeye

[cinder nova]

Picture this, though

Then you have to suffer the indecency of playing someone who can't use shields

[junior jolt]

ha yea true

but still its shit to play plate class with shield and get ur ass handed to you

all pugs now want veng dh only x)

[cinder nova]

Half the reason I even play prot is for the big pee pee shield mogs

Especially legion tower

and it only gets better with age

[lavish oracle]

Lightee called Brew "The worst tank, by far, no contest, right now" earlier after the WF kill

[cinder nova]

Wait

they got M Denath?

[lavish oracle]

Yeah

[cinder nova]

Was it Limit or Echo?

[lavish oracle]

Limit

[cinder nova]

Made it before Xmas

Good for them

[lavish oracle]

Yeah, perfect timing really 😄

[cinder nova]

Not really if any of them are Jewish

Still good for them

[copper lion]

should I craft thunderlord for hands or feet?

[undone jacinth]

ur choice

[copper lion]

and for missives?

[lavish oracle]

Haste/vers, pretty much

[uneven mason]

Warriors represent on that kill

[steady spruce]

So the 16 Stam LW buff cost and 8 basic leather and the 32 Stam one cost 10x the price, right?

[rain dune]

Did I miss patchnotes where they nerfed spell reflect on Darkvien?

Aww I did :[

rip fun perk

[steel mauve]

If you raid, the gloves in the raid are better itemized than the boots, but if you dont raid then go with the better upgrade

[heavy sail]

Idk what to think about Brew.

Stagger is a broken mechanic but they don’t mitigate nearly enough for bleeding edge content.

[astral crystal]

stagger is very good still

i wouldnt say brew is bad at all

streamers are saying brew is dogshit etc

they're just being controversial and steering the herd for shits and giggles

[heavy sail]

It could be made stronger with a little better active mitigation, but it’s not in a bad place either.

I can see from their perspective why it would be bad though

[undone jacinth]

it’s just hyperbole, they are weaker than normal but still fine

[compact smelt]

It’s quite bad this tier especially

[lavish oracle]

Dorki by contrast still likes brew, I think it's really just a testament to tank balance that no one can agree

[undone jacinth]

DK is the only tank where I’m worried that we’re gonna randomly wipe on any boss

or pack

[heavy sail]

DK in a nutshell

The payoff is pretty good when it works out though

[quartz mist]

the second pull in de other side before going to hakkar ? anyone else getting a 18 wheeler truck to the head , so much dmg

[torpid granite]

Jeez that WW in limit was pulling some nuts dps lol

[heavy sail]

Reduces the healing load significantly

WW does great DPS right now, don’t think many people will switch to it though.

The skill/performance payout just isn’t worth it unless you’re dedicated to it

[lavish oracle]

Usually I just pop shield wall and then AoE stops and kite on that pack, shoopuff

[undone jacinth]

is a rough pack if u mean the one before the doorway... can use urn on it

[torpid granite]

I really like WW dps but isk if I’d have it be my go to dps toon

[heavy sail]

DoS is all about interrupts and CC

Some of the magic heavy packs will just fuck you up no matter what you do

[undone jacinth]

the pack with like 7 chain casters in it

why is that even a thing

[heavy sail]

So that DKs can flex their anti-magic shield

[undone jacinth]

in BFA I’d tell people what to kick, now I just give up and hope for the best

70% of spells going through regardless

[heavy sail]

Yeah that’s where utilizing all of your groups CC comes into play

Including your shockwave and int shout

[undone jacinth]

ah I know, just the cast count is way too excessive now imo

[heavy sail]

Certainly feels that way playing prot

[undone jacinth]

silence sigil is completely nuts

[steel mauve]

No tank is actively bad, people are being over reactive, or trolling in some cases, they are actually pretty balanced as far as expansion releases go

[heavy sail]

Super well balanced tbh

Every tank spec has something to complain about rn

[undone jacinth]

is just the problem with tier list obsession... people don’t actually know what to do when things are balanced so have to put something in the lowest tier

[ocean yoke]

but the youtubers said so

[undone jacinth]

although there’s an argument VDH isn’t too balanced rn lol

[ocean yoke]

i wouldnt even say theyre overpowered, just the best for what is best rn especially for m+, getting aggro and getting the fuck out

[heavy sail]

VDH is the worst performing tank in CN right now.

So if that’s the cost for being gods at m+

I guess it’s fair

[steel mauve]

Tier lists are all subjective any ways, like i said, i seen a tier list in the past that rated vengeance lower just because the meta cd was 5 minutes, but the meta cd is actually 3 minutes so they down rated the tank spec because they were mixing up the different specs cooldowns, and would have rated it higher if meta was the same cd as the other specs defensives

[undone jacinth]

well it’s in for both world first and second so I don’t think it’s too worried about raid

[heavy sail]

Well again, “worst performing” is still pretty good

Considering how close everything is

[undone jacinth]

dunno what performing means tbh

it does good dps

[heavy sail]

DTPS/Mitigation

Followed by DPS

[steel mauve]

To be honest, some thing always has to be "the worst" in any given situation

[heavy sail]

They probably do the best DPS right now after the pally nerf

[steel mauve]

But 99% of the player base sees "the worst" and automatically sees trash/garbage/useless

[heavy sail]

Right

Which in this case is a mistake

[undone jacinth]

if they’re doing best dps then pretty sure that means they are performing very well lol

[steel mauve]

When in fact "the worst" is still pretty damn good as far as balanced goes

[heavy sail]

Tank DPS is secondary to surviving and mitigating damage

But yes they are performing well

[undone jacinth]

well they are world first and second main tanks so I don’t think living is an issue

otherwise they wouldn’t be there

[steel mauve]

Very close second though, several expansions ago tank dps was an after thought, but now its fairly important

[heavy sail]

It’s not unimportant and it’s the use case for VDH

The reason why they’re probably world first OTs

[undone jacinth]

they’re there for the debuff but at the same time you can’t bring a tank if it’s at risk of dying

[heavy sail]

Well it’s not really about their risk of dying in my view

It’s about how much healing they need and how that equates to mana and time loss for raid healing

Because no tank right now is at risk of dying if played properly with proper healing

[undone jacinth]

idk pretty sure sludge just one shots DKs and maybe even brews

didn’t echo have to have a sub Prot warrior for him

[heavy sail]

I don’t know I wasn’t following WF

But DK and getting one shot is a tale as old as time

[undone jacinth]

a lot of the nathria fights have nasty tank damage

survive is actually a thing

[nimble drift]

Alright for raid is there a conduit better than brutal vit?

[heavy sail]

Stalwart guardian with the wall and anger management

Is pretty good

That’s about it

Our conduits are garbage

[undone jacinth]

also don’t need AM

for that

do wish the conduits were better tho

[compact smelt]

Try bring a prot pal to donny

If played proper with proper healing

You still die to mythic donny

[undone jacinth]

they are pretty funny atm

had a guy in necrotic wake just getting tortured by every mob lol, their mitigation not ideal

[compact smelt]

It’s been a long time since there has been a boss that hits tanks as hard as Donny

[daring hound]

So The Wall for easiest survivability?

[undone jacinth]

probably

[heavy sail]

In a raid setting yes

[daring hound]

I'm thinking m+

[undone jacinth]

in all tbh

[mighty valley]

you can argue about wall vs thunderlords in M+ forever, wall is def better for raid, so

[undone jacinth]

it’s very straight forward

[heavy sail]

Thunderlords is probably better in M+

Like Harrow said though

It doesn’t ultimately matter that much they’re both good and wall is infinitely better for raid

[daring hound]

Heard