Of course the benefit is I keep the money myself
#protection
dusky canopy
Side jobs in my mind is a win for both parties more than your hourly wage for you and less than the regular cost for the buyer
Kinda the whole point
solid sun
but it’s my company
dusky canopy
Well then yeah that’s totally understandable
solid sun
Well it’s my dads
But that just means it’s mine eventually
Should have named our company game of thrones
dusky canopy
😆
solid sun
With a giant toilet
dusky canopy
Bro that’s hilarious
mighty valley
I'm gonna forge some fraudulent documents that convince the world that I'm the rightful heir to Rhino's dad's plumbing company
dusky canopy
Grrm gotta approve!
mighty valley
Succession war let's gooooooooo
sharp gale
Should have named our company game of thrones
You married your brother ?
mighty valley
Except me, your long lost older brother
mighty valley
I am the firstborn! The plumber's crown is mine by RIGHT
sharp gale
solid sun
While I toured the kingdom and saved the small folk from clogs and water damage you wallowed in your fancy words!
Harrow didn’t expect a war of words
frozen berry
Wasn’t speaking to not repairing stuff, was more speaking to the lack of knowledge the generation that’s upcoming has in all manners for repair. They aren’t interested in it and therefore don’t know basics in unclogging a garbage disposal that they clogged themselves putting avacado pits or beer caps, etc. If you are a renter you aren’t responsible for repairs unless it’s something you’ve caused by negligence
round pendant
I pulled a Dennis Rodman and married myself
I married Pash 
dusky canopy
Wasn’t speaking to not repairing stuff, was more speaking to the lack of knowled...
Ohhh that sentiment I totally get common sense in most regards is lacking amongst the youth
Atleast in my own experience
solid sun
I’ll give you an experience
dusky canopy
I literally had my apprentice come up to me with a Milwaukee power drill squeeze the trigger a bunch of times and ask me why it stopped working..
I was like did you try changing the battery? He full stop blanked for 10 seconds and said oh this thing uses battery’s?
I stg 🤦
round pendant
rhino is such a flirt since I broke the ice on flirting in here
daring marlin
https://tenor.com/view/firewild-gif-9146252
upbeat plover
Who ever let a rhino be a plumber?
solid sun
rhino is such a flirt since I broke the ice on flirting in here
I do be out here
sharp gale
https://tenor.com/view/got-game-of-thrones-green-fire-wildfire-gif-14877928
That’s how I imagine how Harrow’s plushies suffered
solid sun
Are you an electrician @dusky canopy
It would be so elite if an electricians apprentice didn’t know how their power tool got juice
dusky canopy
No no a machinist, the hand drill is for running 4 ft custom drills down hydraulic lines to help clear out lodged chips
He was working away for about 20 minutes and then walked over to me with that question on why the drill stopped I couldn’t believe it
We look back and laugh now he’s come a long way
Good kid
solid sun
I should have been a machinist
dusky canopy
Ehh grass is always greener somewhere
solid sun
Do you design the parts you fabricate
dusky canopy
If income is suitable for you, you’re winning
We design our own products yes, we also manufacture others designs as well upon request
undone beacon
I married Pash <a:ExcitedBlushette:932414006679973888>
#wifey
upbeat plover
I married Pash <a:ExcitedBlushette:932414006679973888>
Damn, you solved that problem fast
daring marlin
tribal wharf
heres that repair hammer thing, i found it
just replace the ID (supposing you fill the requirements, i think it was, like, whatever shoulders you have on repair, not just what you created
its for that slot
but this was woring in tww keys s1
solid sun
I'm heading to the EU to establish EU Applebees
No
undone beacon
dusky canopy
Man I keep telling my wife Applebees sounds good but she isn’t biting
sharp gale
I typed Applebees to see what it is, wtf is that
dusky canopy
It’s a restaurant happy
undone beacon
I typed Applebees to see what it is, wtf is that
That, my non-applebees having friend, is the O-M-CHEESE BURGER, a new special from the hit restaurant applebees
undone beacon
Not femboy hooters?
I feel like the EU already has equivalent facilities
sharp gale
That’s like buffalo grill restaurants ? Or it’s just sophisticated McDonald’s ?
round pendant
I feel like the EU already has equivalent facilities
There's not enough femboy anything
undone beacon
That’s like buffalo grill restaurants ? Or it’s just sophisticated McDonald’s ?
Its one in the long line of "American Bar and Grill" restaurants. Like TGIFridays, Ruby Tuesdays, Glory Days, Red Robin, etc
You could lump Buffalo Wild Wings in there too
sharp gale
Yeah i ate in a buffalo grill once, its my benchmark 
dusky canopy
Buffalo grill hmm sounds like we need one of those
sharp gale
It’s a French restaurant but American food
dusky canopy
New food chain inc
drowsy comet
tribal wharf
undone beacon
It’s a French restaurant but American food
The idea of american themed restaurants in other countries is utterly baffling to me, logical as it may be
sharp gale
It’s like a diner ? Idk I only ate in a diner in Ramstein, I’m unsure if it is
undone beacon
Looks like a steakhouse vibe
Close enough to an applebees tbh
The US has a lot of "steakhouse" restaurants specifically
daring marlin
We're all living in Amerika
Amerika
It's wunderbarrrrrrr
sharp gale
Buffalo grill is marketed as : it is American food
undone beacon
Near me theres Logan's Roadhouse, Longhorn Steakhouse, Outback Steakhouse, All-American Steakhouse, and Texas Roadhouse
And thats just chains within 10 miles
sharp gale
The idea of american themed restaurants in other countries is utterly baffling t...
I have the same feeling with French restaurants abroad, I’m curious what they chose to serve among the hundreds of regional food and say it is le France
undone beacon
Honestly I feel like there really aren't that many French restaurants, much less chains. The only place near me I can think of that was French Cuisine went out of business during the pandemic
tribal wharf
undone beacon
I have the same feeling with French restaurants abroad, I’m curious what they ch...
https://www.canva.com/design/DAG1NQI_uf0/T8OwQTRvo0w6_sokACferg/view?utm_content=DAG1NQI_uf0&utm_campaign=designshare&utm_medium=link2&utm_source=uniquelinks&utlId=he6c3a804e4 peep this menu and rate its authenticity
toxic pewter
honestly never really eat French food.. in my head I consider it expensive, but would like to try it more
tribal wharf
this is a type of candy we have in canada, you can make it with mint rather than whats displayed tehre
sharp gale
Idk if it is common in the US, i saw plenty of French bakeries when i was in Tokyo, maybe bread is really our flag food
undone beacon
Oh yeah theres like French bakeries and desert places moreso than restaurants
toxic pewter
yes where I am same more bakeries that is true
Where I live we have like a fake USA 'French' chain called la Madeleine that people like to go to a lot
Even I like it but I dont know if it is authentic thats for sure
started in Dallas lol
solid sun
@lusty grotto my office for the day
toxic pewter
That badass
sharp gale
https://www.canva.com/design/DAG1NQI_uf0/T8OwQTRvo0w6_sokACferg/view?utm_content...
There are some typical French food, but a Brasserie is a bar-restaurant, half the menu is usually the standard burger/fries, regular steaks, idk why there are so much seafood, overall it is what you kinda expect in a Brasserie here tbf minus the snails
undone beacon
Authenticity: validated
I live in an area with a lot of seafood in general so
It kinda ends up on every menu since its so abundant
sharp gale
You have regions with lot of seafood speciality, but usually you have all the menu is seafood, or you don’t even have a menu, you don’t choose
i don't live near the sea at all, it's pork land in my region
solid sun
Utility sink drain, summer kitchen sink drain, washing machine drain. Now you’re ready @toxic pewter
lusty grotto
<@131897531251556352> my office for the day
Happy have I ever told you Ive been to France?
Also Spain, also Italy
And very briefly London
Ngl but I looked Italy the most
solid sun
That sounds about right
lusty grotto
but all of them were very cool either way
solid sun
My family has long term friends who moved here from France
They always told us it was kinda dirty in Paris
lusty grotto
i mean sure, but so are most cities in the US
solid sun
But idk if they were like from some other place in France that had a rivalry with Paris or something
lusty grotto
that being said
people were not super nice in Paris
they were nicer if you just didnt speak
like just point at stuff
my favorite place in Italy was Naples by far though
lusty grotto
im trying to remember which places i went to in france but it was a long time ago and i was drunk 80% of the way
solid sun
https://tenor.com/view/rainbolt-geoguessr-google-maps-looking-rain-bolt-gif-1388...
Idk what this means
jade hazel
I’m thinking about taking one of those Viking Cruises next year, but also mortified the moment I leave the country there’s gonna be a war 😂
jade hazel
Idk what this means
It’s the geoguesser guy
lusty grotto
Utility sink drain, summer kitchen sink drain, washing machine drain. Now you’re...
this is cool though, hows the rookie doing?
solid sun
Nervous af
lusty grotto
understandable
mighty valley
people were not super nice in Paris
I managed to have Paris people be nice to me by always being in places with louder more obnoxious tourists
lusty grotto
oh thats very true
mighty valley
People liked my attempts at high school French when someone else in the area was being a belligerent asshole
solid sun
When I go to the food trucks I order in Spanish
It’s nice to connect with other cultures and I get to pretend like I’m traveling the world
mighty valley
Wish I knew Spanish, living in California and all
Maybe my daughter will learn in school and teach me
toxic pewter
TANGO UN GATO EN MIS PANTALONES
lusty grotto
debi tomar mas fotos
gracias bad bunny
whew i almost ruined it
donde esta eiffel
"look at google maps you stupid idiot"
oh right
its 2026
round pendant
I hate crazy taxi
toxic pewter
crazy taxi on dreamcast was so fun tho 
solid sun
What
I liked Crazy Taxi
It had a great soundtrack
Tbf I think I mostly liked it because of the soundtrack. It was fun at the arcade though
coarse bay
I liked Crazy Taxi
Another thing you’re significantly better than me at
coarse bay
You can spell Cr(hi)azy Ta(no)xi with rhino
warm plinth
Hi
solid sun
Yo
toxic pewter
Heya
dusky canopy
Sup
pallid quiver
I hate crazy taxi
i casually check in to just see yam shouting "I love the devil and all things wrong"
hate to see it
urban bane
did you see that one GDQ from a year or two ago
where they did a speedrun of Crazy Taxi and had a live band performing all the songs from Crazy Taxi while the speedrun was going on
round pendant
i casually check in to just see yam shouting "I love the devil and all things wr...
evilcat
urban bane
They would perform and then stop and start where you'd expect the radio to stop and start (at the end of a stage, etc). It was great
One of the coolest things I've seen in awhile
lusty grotto
i hadnt seen this
but def pretty awesome
i still have that version of crazy taxi somewhere with my dreamcast
mighty valley
lusty grotto
i have my dreamcast in a box somewhere
mighty valley
wait why the fuck did yam suddenly come for crazy taxi
because yogi posted a sort of crazytaxi-like?
round pendant
because yogi posted a sort of crazytaxi-like?
Yes
mighty valley
any other really strong feelings about games from the late 90s/early 00s?
toxic pewter
Lol
jagged pier
Crash bandicoot, crash bash, crash team racing goated
You wanna go a bit later, lotrs two towers, return of the ring, the third age
lusty grotto
xd
jagged pier
Rachet and clank
sharp gale
PlayStation boy
sharp gale
I never had an Xbox
jagged pier
sharp gale
Sony won my country pretty early
jagged pier
Oh no sony was winning until halo 3 everywhere
sharp gale
Idk I never played it
jagged pier
U missed out
Was peak
Halo3 into modern warfare peal gaming age
For online multi player
wind yacht
hi everyone, i tried looking in the FAQ for a summary of the recent compatible UI addons or any updated profiles but couldnt find any, if anyone has any good links or guides i would really appreciate it, thanks 🙂
sharp gale
I tried to play one halo few years ago but it was too old I quit after a long early mission with a big vehicle
lusty grotto
hi everyone, i tried looking in the FAQ for a summary of the recent compatible U...
hijack has a free ui that is pretty good
this is where i would recommend quazii... but, well..
hijack is good
jagged pier
Default ui is actually pretty good
sharp gale
Halo3 into modern warfare peal gaming age
I was in the cod maze with world at war, Sony did win early
lusty grotto
the only two addons you dont have in Midnight are just **OmniCD **and WA
the rest work
urban bane
yes they thankfully patched the bug on beta which allowed omni cd to work 😌
lusty grotto
hopefully that answers the question cause i completely misunderstood it when i mentioned hijack haha
jagged pier
the only two addons you dont have in Midnight are just **OmniCD **and **WA**
Are u sure omnicd isnt in?
https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/lantern-mythic-tracker
sharp gale
And I didn’t play modern warfare 2 bc wow -> Minecraft
urban bane
Are u sure omnicd isnt in?
https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/lantern-mythic...
i think they've patched the exploit to allow this kind of thing
jagged pier
round pendant
i *think* they've patched the exploit to allow this kind of thing
they didn't
solid sun
It also 404’d for me
jagged pier
Fair it was linked to me a while agi and i havent downlaoded it or logged in so 
urban bane
they didn't
Zorthas said yesterday it was has it since been mentioned?
solid sun
Jakey is phishing us
lusty grotto
im just mentioning omnicd specifically because they were asking about what no longer works
solid sun
Now we are owned
urban bane
Yeh there was an exploit which let people get the value of secrets
which made a lot of addons work which otherwise shouldn't have
jagged pier
im just mentioning omnicd specifically because they were asking about what no lo...
Nah that got linkes to me as a replacement for that, but as i said i havent logged in, in months
mighty valley
MvC 2 is probably the worst vs game of that era
mvc2 is an evil game. not that that's bad
urban bane
The exploit involved something like querying a secret value, placing that secret value in a status bar, and then having that status bar give that information to the game engine in C++, which would basically unmask the secret
solid sun
Yeah I don’t think it’s bad
urban bane
So definitely not intended as it allowed all secret values to be read
urban bane
cat and mouse!
lusty grotto
exploit early and often
urban bane
people are creative and like problem solving
sharp gale
clear
urban bane
exploit early and often
this too
lusty grotto
technically you cant say reading secrets is cheating as the content is still not here
jagged pier
Why are people doing all that
Hey be happy they were doing stuff off the ingame calendar and leaving guilds at one point recently
lusty grotto
the content right now was specifically designed for us when we could see everything
so... kind of a grey area
sharp gale
Hey be happy they were doing stuff off the ingame calendar and leaving guilds at...
And bnet status
lusty grotto
obviously no bueno on actual Midnight content
urban bane
Yeah it is complicated too because addons can still infer based off the limited information they have
People still are developing very intricate ways of figuring out similar things through inference. Like for example, addons can tell and display that a defensive was used on unit frames (e.g., Bark Skin) but there are other things they can do to infer that it likely was barkskin
and then just start a manual timer to say "hey looks like barkskin may have been used and here's a timer to show the cooldown of barkskin"
lusty grotto
honestly im ok with it
solid sun
I can’t wait for barkskin to get removed
urban bane
These won't be super accurate for obvious reasons but 🤷♂️
toxic pewter
MvC 2 is probably the worst vs game of that era
Fake news detected
solid sun
Can’t infer barkskin use when barkskin doesn’t exist anymore
urban bane
Can’t infer barkskin use when barkskin doesn’t exist anymore
yo true!!
Yeah I dont personally think I'll ever play at a level where I will need that information. And if I did I'd rather not risk the misinformation. Personally I'm glad to just not track it or have that kind of clutter on my UI again.
coarse bay
That omnicd addon even says in it’s page that it’s unintended and will be fixed
solid sun
Yeah I guess for clarity, I don’t care much for what people do
I just will hope whatever these workarounds are don’t become “required” by the community
coarse bay
Im not privy to addon devs, but i think a lot of what they’re doing is to bring these loopholes to blizzard’s attention
urban bane
Yeah exactly
solid sun
So the addon devs want the addons more restricted?
coarse bay
So the addon devs want the addons more restricted?
They dont want this jank shit either
urban bane
The blizz devs definitely don't want secret values being exposed :)
toxic pewter
If it were me I would get rid of all addons
solid sun
Why don’t they want the secret values exposed?
lusty grotto
Im not privy to addon devs, but i think a lot of what they’re doing is to bring ...
💯
urban bane
Like reloe who makes northernsky and stuff has been very vocal about wanting leaky secrets and bypasses like this to be fixed
coarse bay
If the addon devs can find and create these loopholes, they’d rather make an addon and have streamers use it to get it noticed and fixed, than to have shitty addons made and required that sit in a grey zone
urban bane
And Blizzard to their credit is working on them. It'll just be cat and mouse for the first bit of Midnight. But it'll largely be fine, imo
coarse bay
And fwiw that omnicd one is just ugly
urban bane
It is complicated but I think it'll be fine. I'm sure there will be a lot of knee jerk if/when things pop up that temporarily work even though they are exploits before blizzard patches it out.
lusty grotto
blizzard should also adjust their design based on the need for these addons
im sure they will since beta is still on going
but if not, they can adjust for the next season
urban bane
yeh it'll be a work in progress for sure
I will say in the dungeons I've ran the excessive spell casting "bolt slop" isn't as bad as it was these past two seasons
There still are caster mobs. But not really as many. A few pain points here and there but nothing too bad
solid sun
Done, boss
It’s currently filling with water for a pressure test so technically not done but basically done
solid sun
In Cali?
Well for your house I would need to do fire rated insulation. Probably cast iron drainage
Copper water piping
Absolutely zero gas piping whatsoever
I’m sorry. You asked for a favor and I’m publicly strategizing how to grillproof your plumbing system
The short answer is no, but I’d do it well and with a smile on my face
lusty grotto
🤝
solid sun
Now if you pay for my lodging and buy me food we can negotiate
round pendant
These won't be super accurate for obvious reasons but 🤷♂️
it's accurate enough
With enough events and conditions you can infer basically everything
it makes the whole locking down self/party auras kinda pointless
so we're gonna get the same functionally but 5% of the time it'll just be wrong
it's so dumb
urban bane
:)
lusty grotto
calculate rage use vs AM on the 2 warriors in this raid please
solid sun
I’m gonna be so for real
I ain’t using it
I’m gonna call Nimchip and have him tell me what to do, play-by-play style
lusty grotto
round pendant
yeah okay it can't do EVERYTHING but it does enough that we may as well just be allowed to have what we already had :)
so it's at least not clunky slop
Or, second best option
delete addons entirely
no wait that's third best option
second best would be blizzard creating their own addon page and addons have to be okayed by them
urban bane
We'll ultimately have to see what blizzard ends up restricting/allowing as far as inference goes.
mighty valley
Now if you pay for my lodging and buy me food we can negotiate
do you like brisket
urban bane
to be honest a lot of people doing high keys are not finding it necessary to "bring back" these things like omnicd
coarse bay
second best would be blizzard creating their own addon page and addons have to b...
Agreed, they shouldnt have backed off so easily since they wanted to do an addon purge, and this would be imo the best option
solid sun
do you like brisket
I do!
coarse bay
There are tons of niche and qol addons that are good to allow, but they should just improve the base ui and add enough options to fully remove gameplay/ui related addons
urban bane
im willing to get by with as little as possible. very happy with my ui and don't really want to add anything else. i think most people who had omnicd installed didnt even look at it to be honest
round pendant
They for sure didn't
urban bane
they probably thought "oh hey how helpful" and then spend most of the key not looking at it
round pendant
But that's the thing
The stuff that was deemed too OP, the people complaining about didn't even need to use or know how to use
solid sun
I only used omnicd for kicks
round pendant
It only harms the people who will simply adapt and hop on voice now and communicate
and makes my pugging life worse
urban bane
I'm sure it'll be fine
coarse bay
I think blizzard could consider having a built in tracker on frames depending on your role. Healers should know defensive cds and tanks should know offensive cds
round pendant
it won't be cause I ain't playing
urban bane
Oh, then it will be fine! You're free!
round pendant
yo true
round pendant
I think blizzard could consider having a built in tracker on frames depending on...
Blizzard should add the things that addons have had for 20 years now and became kind of a mainstay for most peoples UI?
Yeah we've been saying that
they just won't do it
They changed the priority of buffs on frames right?
lusty grotto
i cant think of anyone that actually needed to see cds in raid except for the raid lead, and more often than not they just call it out based on a timeline which will be available in Midnight
i saw something along those lines yea
round pendant
What good reason is there for us to not be able to just pick that priority ourselves as an advanced option?
lusty grotto
thats also coming
round pendant
i cant think of anyone that actually needed to see cds in raid except for the ra...
well I'm an m+ enjoyer
lusty grotto
but later
ok well, there's not a huge amount of bolt slop
so the question is, will it really be needed?
round pendant
Making the game easier by making it so knowing someone's CDs is irrelevant to a pull or knowing my party's kick status
just not very interesting to me
I'd rather they just add that functionality baseline
round pendant
that wasn't tied to the first part
knowing peoples kicks are up is relevant to whether or not I gotta use my own in some situations
lusty grotto
i do agree that blizzard would benefit from taking the fellowship kick approach
but only if they intend of making bolt sloppy stuff
vital sinew
Allowing some sort of target icon tree would be a nice QoL
round pendant
it's just stuff that would be communicated over voice chat but it's pugging so there's no voice chat
yknow?
lusty grotto
fellowship's approach is very elegant
round pendant
like I kick a caster but the idiot pugger who I told to kick the spider miniboss in ara kara
also wasted his kick somehow
can't tell me over voice or type in chat OH FUCK
so I'm like okayge I have to aoe kick or we're dead
That's why the changes bug me. It's just a way to close the gap between pugging no voice and being on voice
not some op shit
jade hazel
knowing peoples kicks are up is relevant to whether or not I gotta use my own in...
I blame pvp for the death of things like omniCD
mighty valley
this explains so much of the friction between community requests and how big games get changed
lusty grotto
as long as the content isnt designed in a way that we need that information, im okay with it
round pendant
as long as the content isnt designed in a way that we need that information, im ...
yeah I mean that's a fair take
mighty valley
all data everywhere says "if people play in consistent groups with their friends, they play more, they play longer, they're happier"
jade hazel
Zero reason we shouldn’t be able to see your groups ints and CDs
mighty valley
but discord type players say "but we want to pug. we want to solo queue."
jade hazel
“Combat values hidden blah blah blah”
lusty grotto
i would add that, all of this is communicated via voice anyway
to your point harrow
round pendant
But then I just see the removal of things people considered hard like coordinating kicks or using CDs properly as simplifying the game
lusty grotto
its just most people dont wanna hop on voice
round pendant
but if you believe they'll make the game more complex in other areas to make up for it
then you'll think it's fine
I just have no hope
lusty grotto
or actually i dont know off hand what the specific percentage it is for that
jade hazel
all data everywhere says "if people play in consistent groups with their friends...
Yeah actually crazy the lone wolf mentality in mmos. Weird in cs2 or other games it’s mandatory to be in VC for 30 mins but for wow people can’t be bothered to communicate
round pendant
but discord type players say "but we want to pug. we want to solo queue."
My 4 other friends aren't always available to play this game at the same time and we all pay a subscription cost to play it
I want to play the game when I don't have a full stack
It's not giving me an advantage to have these features that people on voice get by default
vital sinew
PVP needs voice, who knew
mighty valley
i'm not criticizing people who want to play like that but it's definitely in their interest to make it optimal to play with people you know, esp. on voice
it's just a balancing act of how much to hurt the pug life when optimizing for that
round pendant
yeah and that's my problem with it
jade hazel
Pug life = sad life
mighty valley
it's almost certainly the same calculus that makes them resistant to lowering raid group size, or removing lockouts
solid sun
There’s in game voice
round pendant
I've seen:
"if they dumb it down here they can add complexity elsewhere" but looking at ptr dungeons doesn't give me hope for that
mighty valley
It harms people's enjoyment for the sake of, what?
for the thing i'm telling you, that they've seen extensive evidence that players overall play more and are happier if the game is optimized for all that stuff
lusty grotto
it's almost certainly the same calculus that makes them resistant to lowering ra...
im still for those btw
round pendant
I've seen:
"People will do harder content if they feel they don't need to install addons for it" when those people never needed addons in the first place and won't do that content still, because people weren't being gatekept by having to use addons lol
mighty valley
addons weren't the thing that was literally making it harder for people, but there are a ton of players who are gonna look at wow and say "i have to install extra shit for this game? fuck that im gonna go play anything else" and never come back
lusty grotto
for the thing i'm telling you, that they've seen extensive evidence that players...
i agree with this, and kinda seems gamers in general would benefit from being more social at times instead of being doomscrolling demons holed up on a text-based (or streamer/youtube based) echo chamber
round pendant
for the thing i'm telling you, that they've seen extensive evidence that players...
Have they? I feel like a lot of games drift more and more towards catering to solo players
idk why it'd be different in wow
everyone begs for 10 man mythic and more flex options
vital sinew
20man mythic lockouts are easily the worst thing in the game, hard to argue with those points
round pendant
addons weren't the thing that was literally making it harder for people, but the...
Yeah I get that but it's also not why wow isn't growing
MMO is kind of a dead genre
They shouldn't fuck it over for the most dedicated players to try to pull in newer people who ain't interested in the first place
solid sun
I think there’s a difference between wanting flex or ten player options and wanting to play solo
lusty grotto
20man mythic lockouts are easily the worst thing in the game, hard to argue with...
ive said it like a million times in here but yea, its an outdated concept
round pendant
I think there’s a difference between wanting flex or ten player options and want...
Flexibility is the key word I think
lusty grotto
i dont agree with flex
round pendant
People want options, especially when everyone's adults now and can't always schedule a time to play
coarse bay
Fwiw i also just dont like hopping in vc with random people in wow
solid sun
Flex should be an option once the hall of fame closes imo
coarse bay
It feels different in games like cs
round pendant
I feel like if I tried to sell wow to a zoomer it'd be impossible
Explain the endgame gameplay loop to a zoomer
lusty grotto
Flex should be an option once the hall of fame closes imo
heavy disagree
coarse bay
Explain the endgame gameplay loop to a zoomer
I think m+ could be a sell point
sharp gale
Yeah actually crazy the lone wolf mentality in mmos. Weird in cs2 or other games...
It is my serious take tbf, launching a key should log everyone in the ingame voice chat by default (you can add competititve tag conditions if you are that shy), ppl in cs2 insta mute themselves but at least they can hear
mighty valley
zoomers are approaching 30 now, gotta update our generational beef
there are zoomers in this chat
round pendant
You pay $15 a month and an upfront cost to play timegated content and you're fucked if you're solo or have few friends
why would they do that instead of just playing fartknife
vital sinew
A+ edit
coarse bay
It is my serious take tbf, launching a key should log everyone in the ingame voi...
While i’m all for social interaction and whatnot, i dont think forced vc is a good choice
lusty grotto
i did mention this a while ago
live service games are just superior to mmos in every way
round pendant
WoW is overpriced.
I'll die on this hill
It was more fair back in the day but it's actually cooked in 2026
sharp gale
While i’m all for social interaction and whatnot, i dont think forced vc is a go...
Forced by default*, the positive action being to turn it off and not turn it on like now
lusty grotto
free? check
buy cosmetics? check
content? check
weeklies/dailies? check
round pendant
Especially with how people have changed socially online in that time
mighty valley
You pay $15 a month and an upfront cost to play timegated content and you're fuc...
subscription is a big part of why they want to maintain the old model of having strong social connections in wow, it's another part of the glue that makes you feel like you aren't gonna even think about canceling
round pendant
Yeah it's also why they add predatory game mechanics to keep you locked in and time gate everything so they can milk the sub cost
but it's the only game you play with your friends
I really don't think many people are gonna wanna sign up for that
lusty grotto
well i mean they are introducing a lot of single player content because of that
mighty valley
i don't think wow is a fraction as predatory as all the mobile games the younger gens are on lol
lusty grotto
is it comparable to the group content? probably not, at least not yet
round pendant
It's not as predatory as gacha gambling games but it's still nefarious
sharp gale
I wouldn’t go on mobile game territory, it’s not that fair
round pendant
they've made improvements but still
my whole point is I don't think the reason new players aren't joining is because the endgame was too complex and addons were a pain to install
lusty grotto
some of it is acceptable, they are a company after all
round pendant
maybe a tiny tiny portion
mighty valley
i think there are a lot of reasons are those are two that are at least somewhat within their control
sharp gale
I don’t know if enough or not ppl are joining tbf
round pendant
They could stop charging for expansions 
mighty valley
it's not really an option to tell your shareholders "our game is slowly dying as our players age out and no new ones come in. Oh Well"
lusty grotto
i do agree that i absolutely fucking hate the weekly model and both The Vault (TM) and FFXIV tomestones are just things that infuriate me because there's no way to recover a lost week
it happens in live service games too but at least in those games you either buy once or are f2p
round pendant
I'd certainly sub and try midnight even with these changes if I didn't have to give blizzard the $60 for the honor to try changes that sound bad on the surface to me
all my friends who quit would too
I think it's a big reason why some expacs just flop too
pay money for something everyone is saying is worse? nah I'm good
lusty grotto
and its not like i want them to remove those 2 systems, but they should at least give you an option to recover a lost week vault or gain the 450 dogshit tomes in xiv
round pendant
i do agree that i absolutely fucking hate the weekly model and both The Vault (T...
the lost weeks are giga tilting, I would have played way more throughout all of TWW if alts had catch-up
mighty valley
yeah, would be cool if you didn't have to pay a box price too, they just have millions of people who preorder without giving it a second thought
lusty grotto
i hold strong at least
sharp gale
For the vault I felt weird turbo boost didn’t bring a vault boost
solid sun
I think wow would benefit from adding the current content to a trial period at the very least
mighty valley
shadowlands was plenty profitable despite everything because a bunch of people paid a box price even if they dropped off quickly
urban bane
I’m not you, but as someone who was skeptical about these changes there feels like very little difference in terms of play from being on beta. Yes fewer casts but at the end of the day it is still wow. You can do 15s without comms. You can do higher without comms.
solid sun
Like if you have an active sub you can play the new expansion for some amount of time before purchasing it
sharp gale
It all circle back to Bobby’s maze
round pendant
But they're existing players who've had nothing but wow for a long time, most likely
solid sun
If they didn’t wanna go free with it
round pendant
Like if you have an active sub you can play the new expansion for some amount of...
or get this, let me play PTR without a sub
urban bane
It really isn’t a huge difference in terms of feel.
mighty valley
shadowlands also had the "i'm stuck indoors, fuck it, why not return to my degenerate college days and play wow" factor
round pendant
still not ideal and won't bring in new players but I'd feel better about it
lusty grotto
shadowlands also had the "i'm stuck indoors, fuck it, why not return to my degen...
yeah thats a huge factor
jade hazel
Also classic/hardcore covered up a lot of shadowlands pain
mighty valley
It really isn’t a huge difference in terms of feel.
yeah... ultimately i feel like they've made a lot of noise that doesn't amount to that much actual change lol
solid sun
They just need to bring wow to consoles*
round pendant
It really isn’t a huge difference in terms of feel.
I watched someone do like +18s on ptr and it felt really boring
and I'm someone who can watch people do those keys and enjoy watching it in a normal season
solid sun
- the Wowbox that only plays wow
round pendant
like I like watching Sense's videos
but regardless of what I feel, I just don't really buy any of it being the solution to getting new players in
urban bane
🤷♂️
lusty grotto
i guess im different, i watch select streamers doing keys because they are entertaining or when i wanna see how they do a certain pull/route
i dont watch the key itself
round pendant
Not that I even give a shit about getting new players in. I want the game I play to be fun, especially when i pay for it
mighty valley
everyone here yearns for the legion m+ days of huge pulls zero mechanics, i don't trust anyone's opinions on good dungeon design lol
solid sun
It may not be successful in getting new players in. I respect the effort though
round pendant
everyone here yearns for the legion m+ days of huge pulls zero mechanics, i don'...
legion m+ was boring af
jade hazel
Not that I even give a shit about getting new players in. I want the game I play...
Cmon but there’s HOUSING and… DELVES like cmon
round pendant
I certainly don't yearn for it
mighty valley
fuck, yam caught me being hyperbolic
sharp gale
but regardless of what I feel, I just don't really buy any of it being the solut...
I am the optimist Happy, I don’t think they need much to bring new players, WoW is already the best game there is 
solid sun
I yearn for the mines
round pendant
xalatath feet
lusty grotto
let me rephrase that
round pendant
looking
sharp gale
And I’m not even joking
lusty grotto
you know how they bring in A FUCKLOAD of new players?
solid sun
Crossover content with Kai cenat
round pendant
They could sell housing mtx, mounts, cosmetics, a battle pass (cosmetic only) and if the game was free I'd support all of it
lusty grotto
but the typical WoW player wants neither of those
warm plinth
Why tf would you support mtx and battle pass
round pendant
because I only care about the gameplay side of things
mighty valley
they sell all that stuff except battle pass PLUS a subscription and people buy it lol
sharp gale
Marketing, wow is already a good enough drug addiction game (at least I think it is) and yes free or game pass would be big bc sub is scary
lusty grotto
the marketting push is in, in case you havent seen Zillow or even Waze
round pendant
idk my perspective is probably unique in that I'm someone who only cares about m+ with the homies
lusty grotto
which has Xala's voice
warm plinth
Zillow is a fuckin wild company to partner with ngl
urban bane
I watched someone do like +18s on ptr and it felt really boring
idk what to say, I guess I don't see it. It still feels and plays like WoW except im not pretending that I need to track all this meta info in a hud. Or even really have DBM/bigwigs because it is pretty clear what the game is asking the player to do for most m+ mechanics
lusty grotto
Zillow is a fuckin wild company to partner with ngl
yeah its questionable, like who the fuck is the target there lmao, but the point is they are doing marketting pushes
sharp gale
which has Xala's voice
More of that, TikTok/short content marketing whatever it costs
lusty grotto
the floor is SL
warm plinth
I think making the "starter" account going to the max of the previous expansion would be cool
round pendant
I'm also just fine with letting things go
warm plinth
Level 20 doesn't do shit to give you an idea of the game
round pendant
And maybe it's the state of the 'conomy, I just can't justify the cost of the game for what I get and how the devs treat it
round pendant
I think making the "starter" account going to the max of the previous expansion ...
yeah they should definitely just do a FFXIV and let you play all but the last 2 expacs or whatever
solid sun
Well if you play wow and not a bunch of of AAA titles
round pendant
but the game isn't really set up to have a consistent experience 1-70
especially for multiple characters
solid sun
You technically spend less than the AAA gamer
warm plinth
No but at least your spec is mostly fleshed out at 10 below max
round pendant
yep
lusty grotto
Im reluctantly optimistic about Midnight. There are things i absolutely do not like like Crest = AP type situation (and the same old "i hate myth lockouts, and i wish there was a weekly vault catchup) but i think it'll be fine
warm plinth
Weekly vault catch-up would be really neat
lusty grotto
oh im not
round pendant
You ALWAYS disagree with my dooming on everything
lusty grotto
im anything but
round pendant
you're an optimist
solid sun
I think I’m hecked up in Midnight since I don’t raid mythic
lusty grotto
i just like playing the devil's advocate cause its good to see opposing points of view and echo chambers are fucking evil
warm plinth
@solid sun but you can key with me
sharp gale
Im not optimist about midnight specifically, more about Blizz/wow, bc I think it is a good game 
solid sun
<@121955167863046144> but you can key with me <a:ExcitedBlushette:93241400667997...
Are we gonna live inside key world
lusty grotto
this is not pre SL Blizzard
solid sun
If you do enough keystones you should get a keyblade cosmetic
lusty grotto
isnt there one from delves?
urban bane
i just like playing the devil's advocate cause its good to see opposing points o...
ilu
vital sinew
Are we talking a keystone shaped blade or a kingdom hearts keyblade?
sharp gale
this is not pre SL Blizzard
My personal thought is : it is mostly the same as pre sl in term of Blizz
lusty grotto
Idk
took me a bit
but i knew there was one
oh its a cloak
oh well
staff
vivid orchid
staff is for 
lusty grotto
im always up for it if im not doing anything
solid sun
The more we have the less often I have to be put in and act as the anchor
round pendant
pre-SL was still Ion
lusty grotto
you cant put all of that on Ion
round pendant
idk I don't like Ion since he said that shit about knowing what content creators people are watching based on their opinions on the addon stuff
as if your opinion is invalid if it's a content creator he doesn't like
agree with him: "you're just copying so-and-so's take!!"
disagree with him: "waow true free thinker"
I'm putting a lot of words in his mouth here but that's how it came across
lusty grotto
dont you think they benefit from watching those streamers?
its the whole point
and when he said that its very obvious hes talking about asmongold
round pendant
I really don't care who he's talking about, there's really no benefit to equating people's opinions to "that's just streamer X's opinion" to disregard it
mighty valley
people get prepackaged opinions on games and characters they barely even play
round pendant
Has he considered that maybe people just agree with the take?
mighty valley
yes he's fucking considered it
lusty grotto
i think its more refreshing thats he's in tune with echo chambers
mighty valley
he's expressing a homogenization in the way that people communicate their opinions that has shifted over ten years
round pendant
people get prepackaged opinions on games and characters they barely even play
Very convenient that it just so happens the takes that are prepackaged are the ones that don't want to go in the direction he wants the game to go in
That's why it's dodgy
like I said idc what the take is or who said it, it's insanely sketch reasoning
urban bane
Do you actually know that's the direction Ion wants to go in?
mighty valley
i think you are taking a fair observation about the change in how games are discussed and running a great distance to reach conclusions about ion's thinking
round pendant
I don't think it's fair at all, you're quite literally taking agency away from viewers of X streamer
They agree with the opinion, that is all that matters
lusty grotto
yes and they are echo chamber-y opinions
mighty valley
all he said is that in the past, at places like blizzcon, people would walk up to him with a wide range of opinions, phrased in different ways
more recently, people have much closer opinions, phrased in similar ways
solid sun
Did he happen to offer any examples
mighty valley
i don't recall any, it would be pretty foolish to do so lol
solid sun
Sometimes I can think about these things better if I can think about it with real context
Like more specific context
mighty valley
you aren't attacked by millions for every opinion you state though rhino
as far as i'm aware
solid sun
I’m attacked by millions for my nose horn
round pendant
He's a rhino, he's literally poached
lusty grotto
Sometimes I can think about these things better if I can think about it with rea...
Asmongold viewers generally hate addons and tend to be classic andies, what do you think their opinions will be when approaching Ion?
mighty valley
i dunno it's a pretty normal observable trend over the past decade or so of games discourse (and other discourse)
how else do stupid fucking opinions like "sbmm ruined shooters" get so widespread
lusty grotto
amongst other things...
round pendant
Uh it's a by-product of communication being able to go so wide now
Those people still thought about it (some more than others sure) and agreed with it
mighty valley
urban bane
It also just is a fundamental aspect of humanity. Frustration is contagious. And when you're frustrated or feel fucked around with you're looking for a heel.
lusty grotto
yes and if they have just a sliver of a different opinions, they get chased out
tribalism
round pendant
Plenty of times in history has someone laid something out in a way that a lot of people have gone "Hm, yeah, that makes sense" it's not fucking propaganda lmao
urban bane
It is easier to listen to what someone who has a huge influence says the heel is than decide for yourself
lusty grotto
a viewer or anyone in this chat that repeats the same concepts ad nauseaum isnt really demonstrating something new
you just watch the chat, or the streamer
round pendant
Nah this is really dodgy rhetoric
urban bane
Yeah I can think of no times in history where people reasonably thought to scapegoat their problems onto another group of people and it not being propaganda
mighty valley
i think sometimes people are rational and hear someone helps them phrase their feelings. i think sometimes people have an unrelated frustration and erroneously come to the conclusion that the charismatic streamer they enjoy has an answer for it. i think sometimes people just like hopping on hostile bandwagons for fun
i think all of these things happen
lusty grotto
100%
round pendant
But, if it aligned with your opinion, would you be saying it still?
urban bane
society-wide
lusty grotto
sure it was just harder to do so without the internet
round pendant
My point is the argument is completely fucking pointless cause it will simply be used to dismiss swathes of legitimate feedback
lusty grotto
but certainly not impossible
mighty valley
i think it's really easy to convince people that the solutions to difficult problems are really easy
urban bane
What would it mean if it was something which was considered but decided it wasn't for the best though?
lusty grotto
if you hear the same thing from 10 people, and comment on how "you already know", are you dismissing opinions?
mighty valley
My point is the argument is completely fucking pointless cause it will simply be...
it's fucking pointless to observe a change in how people arrive at conclusions and communicate them?
round pendant
Are you not hearing the undertones of "their opinion isn't valid" in what you've been saying
urban bane
Like I've had people I've employed tell me they are concerned about x y z thing and wish we did something else. And I've explained to each of them "hey I understand that point of view, it is clear we care about this, but it isn't possible for x, y, z reasons"
Validity of opinion doesn't mean that it has to be acted on or fulfilled
mighty valley
in game design it is very often correct to do something that is going to be taken as unpopular but is good for the game. knowing what players need vs. what they say they want is like, over half the job
that is now way harder in an age where million of people can scream at you directly for doing the unpopular thing
round pendant
Oh yeah I forgot this is the "you think you do but you don't" company and this is par for the course
round pendant
bye bye
coarse bay
round pendant
If you can't see how the rhetoric is dodgy as fuck I think you might be brain damaged
coarse bay
Is this about any specific opinions or just in general?
urban bane
Just because Harrow didn't agree with your assessment doesn't make him brain damaged, Yam. I doubt you really think that
round pendant
Feedback should be assessed on the merit of the argument itself and NOT who said what or why or whether they have a following or could potentially be "brain-washed"
it's legitimately dangerous
now this is just a videogame
round pendant
Just because Harrow didn't agree with your assessment doesn't make him brain dam...
nah I don't think he's brain-damaged the point just keeps going over his head
urban bane
I can see there's probably no convincing you that Ion meant anything other than smug dismissiveness with his comment.
round pendant
I can see him meaning in that way, it's still a dodgy line of reasoning
coarse bay
Do we know who views and assesses feedback anyways? Someone surely had to decide if they want to do anything about that stuff before relaying it to proper channels
round pendant
and considering blizzard is notoriously the company that takes literally years and entire flops of expacs before they change anything for the better
urban bane
Big organizations take a long time to change direction, for what it is worth.
I say that from experience working at organizations, large and small, and being involved in change management
round pendant
And also Harrow is the "you can't have an opinion on games unless you're a game dev" guy
So
It kinda lines up with what I'm saying
round pendant
Big organizations take a long time to change direction, for what it is worth.
Yeah that's fair
But they're also the guys who say to their customers "you guys have phones don't you?" and "you think you do but you don't"
That's not a big organisation thing
urban bane
Im not saying it isnt frustrating, to be clear. I'm certainly not happy with plenty of things about the game.
And yeah, I get it. There's been pretty tone-deaf leadership and plenty of misplays.
lusty grotto
Oh yeah I forgot this is the "you think you do but you don't" company and this i...
pre SL blizzard and that wasnt Ion
coarse bay
Not really in defense of blizzard, but they do have a very large playerbase and hear all forms of feedback, theyll never make everyone happy
urban bane
But I don't think that someone's misplays or bad leadership itself means that every opinion of the fan base necessarily is what would be best for the game. What is is a larger question which I don't presume to have any of the answers to, to be clear.
round pendant
pre SL blizzard and that wasnt Ion
Yeah I know, and like I said ion could have meant what you and harrow said he did
I'm just saying
and idk how many times I have to say it
the thought process behind the argument can be abused to hell and back
urban bane
But I'd rather have that job be left to the people who make the game. And if I like it, I'll keep playing it. If I don't I'll stop.
round pendant
and it rubbed me the wrong way
lusty grotto
it can also mean hes acknowledging them and has considered their opinion, it doesnt have to go just one way
urban bane
exactly
round pendant
Not to mention the BIGGEST problems are the ones that will be amplified over time and more and more people will just regurgitate the talking point
so if everyone's saying ONE thing it might be even more important
but yea
like I said it could mean that, it just sets off alarm bells for me to see someone saying shit like that
urban bane
It doesnt feel good to feel like you're being fucked with or dismissed, sure. Absolutely. And in a rush to say "fuck you my thoughts matter" it can be easy to forget that there's a lot of things he could mean by his statement.
And without Ion in the room to clarify, or further remarks about what he meant himself, it is really just speculation.
round pendant
But I don't think that someone's misplays or bad leadership itself means that ev...
There's cases of players wanting the wrong thing for the game, like casual players thinking they need addons to partake in low keys or heroic raid and so addons should be removed
but I don't think that those are a bunch of brainwashed casuals
I think there's just a weird perception issue and lack of knowledge around that part of the game
but instead of thinking hm, how can we make our UI communicate information better so that they can understand the game better without addons
they just gut addons
same goes with class complexity
It's like treating a symptom and not the cause
lusty grotto
there a hell of a lot more nuance to that
and maybe im crazy but im pretty sure they have said things like
its probably not doable to do things that way, it'll probably break functionality
i think a better example is, when seasons started in the past it was doable to just keep everything, but it was a fuckload more simple to just nuke your entire WAs and addons and start from cratch
thats how i think they went about this
and they are certainly not stopping here
coarse bay
While i have complaints of the ui features they have coming out half ass and uncooked, i do think that if they didnt go as hard as they did, they wouldnt have improved this much
round pendant
I'm not a fan of the all or nothing approach personally
coarse bay
In what way?
Theyve returned a ton of functionality, so much that it feels like they shouldnt have done it in the first place imo
round pendant
I just think there was a much more nuanced and better way that didn't grief the game for higher end players
carmine frigate
Anyone know what these debuff trackers are and how to move them? Idk what they are called.
coarse bay
Anyone know what these debuff trackers are and how to move them? Idk what they a...
Private auras
lusty grotto
dbm/bigwigs will do it
round pendant
like
right
Look at this
It's not less valid but it's less organic, after describing organic in a good light (not screenshotted my bad)
And the m+ changes sound good right? oh we're accepting there's a distinction between casuals and hardcore players
coarse bay
I just think there was a much more nuanced and better way that didn't grief the ...
Ya it feels like shit to do all this shit rn, i dont think the game shouldve been live in the form that it was/is. I dont know a better way to have done what they did, i just hope it gets better
round pendant
so we get the separation between 11 and below and 12s and up
Except, 11 and below is actually more complex for the casual players
And now they get griefed by affixes but it's okay because the content is trivial
Like they literally got it backwards, somehow
lusty grotto
Ya it feels like shit to do all this shit rn, i dont think the game shouldve bee...
all of this had to be done to kill the weed
spraying wont help
you close up and open slowly
round pendant
The point is, they (specifically Ion in this case) says one thing that seems sound and makes sense, but what they implement almost always misses the intended goal
coarse bay
Ya i think the idea is sound, everything just needed more time to cook before being released as it was
lusty grotto
sure there's profit involved
lusty grotto
The point is, they (specifically Ion in this case) says one thing that seems sou...
im not sure how the xalatath's affixes have anything to do with that
mighty valley
The point is, they (specifically Ion in this case) says one thing that seems sou...
in this specific case satisfaction went up across the board after the changes went in
coarse bay
I personally think the affixes are uninteresting and lame, but it isnt content made for me so idk
round pendant
Gotta consider they made m+ easier at the same time as implementing the separation
My point is
It just feels like the result is backwards from what it should be based on what he said
Distinguishing between people pushing high and low keys is good
but why do low keys get an objectively more complex scenario?
the amount of pug low keys I've been in on alts that gets griefed by an affix is wild
and then they crash out and flame
lusty grotto
i wasnt even aware they were that complex
mighty valley
he’s saying that mid level players complained about affixes, they realized that the feedback was being homogenized, and made a set of changes that kept affixes at the mid level and the feedback went away
coarse bay
Flavor maybe, and if done they do provide a benefit
round pendant
They're not complex, but it's certainly more complex than not having them in higher keys
it's minor
mighty valley
it’s pretty straightforward
lusty grotto
am i wrong or is it impossible to wipe if you miss the affix?
cerulean tusk
Nah, yam is right. It is faster to do 12s than 10s, just cause how affixes interact with things
Affixes can wipe you or waste a ton of time
mighty valley
there are key levels other than 10 and 12
round pendant
The balls one was notorious for causing wipes
cerulean tusk
They are, but if you play a low key as a 12+ it does ball on needless complexity that easily punish you more than it rewards
lusty grotto
sure but they got fixed right?
untold phoenix
The penalties for missing an affix is usually slightly buffing the mobs or healing them. It's not wipe worthy unless you were already close to wiping or very undergeared
coarse bay
While me and most people i know intentionally avoid keys with affixes, im hoping that blizzard receives more feedback to make decisions
Like idk if it’s all negative, maybe people like it
lusty grotto
but do you really avoid them because of affixes?
or because there's just no reason to do them
you get more crests on a 12
round pendant
nah doing 10s feels awful if your group is messing the affix up
and some people max out at 10s
lusty grotto
i dont think affixes are the why
round pendant
And that's their experience
coarse bay
Mostly it’s a decision made by picking who you play with. The better players farm 12s, making it smoother
solid sun
Are we still being friends
coarse bay
Like same group will do a 10 with affix very fast
cerulean tusk
Yep, dont want to deal with mobs with DR cause orbs spawned in Narnia. Dont want to deal with interact lock out cause afffix spawned
lusty grotto
cat are you hard stuck in TWW S1 or something
cerulean tusk
There is so many annoying scenarios with affixes
Nah, I just boost
So i seen em a lot
I just avoid 10s, not worth the hassle
round pendant
he’s saying that mid level players complained about affixes, they realized that ...
Yes and the conclusion of the homogenization of feedback is that low players don't know what they want and don't need to worry about affixes cause it's trivial but we'll make it better for higher players
and the result is that low players get the more complex mechanics that actively griefs their runs
coarse bay
Do we know that the people doing sub 12 keys dislike the affixes though?
round pendant
i swear to christ im so lost on this argument
Yeah I'm clearly mentally challenged cause I can't get my point across
lmao
I'll just drop it
cerulean tusk
Whats hard to get about it? It is a kiss curse, that often curse you due to how the game works
round pendant
lusty grotto
im not saying that
untold phoenix
Do we know that the people doing sub 12 keys dislike the affixes though?
Not definitively, some do, some like them
lusty grotto
im saying i simply do not get it
round pendant
I'm saying that nimchip
coarse bay
I think that the division between “casual” and “hardcore” by affix is just dumb too fwiw
mighty valley
sorry I forgot I’m brain damaged
coarse bay
The difficulty jump in s1 did it better
lusty grotto
that i definitely do not agree with
500%
the difficulty in s1 was MASSIVE
jump, sorry
untold phoenix
Yeah nah the TWW s1 jump between 11s and 12s was ungodly
coarse bay
Well ya it was too much of a jump, but having a jump at the level of just being a push for challenge is better
untold phoenix
Being a scaling system with linear levels there is no reason for jumps
coarse bay
For sure was TOO much, but i like that idea more than the affix specifically
untold phoenix
1->2 should be the exact same "harder" as 13->14
round pendant
If feedback is homogenized because casuals are listening to the pros, the solution isn't to make the pros shut up and leave the casuals' content worse off
cerulean tusk
They could rework the idea of low key affix to not be kiss/curse, and only kiss
Would fix any ire ppl got about it
round pendant
The homogenisation is irrelevant and ended up getting the casuals content made worse
well not worse, just not better
mighty valley
where did ion say “the solution is to make content creators shut the fuck up”
lusty grotto
what they didnt like was being fucked by push weeks
round pendant
where did ion say “the solution is to make content creators shut the fuck up”
That's how they measured success of the changes
lusty grotto
lets be super specific about this
coarse bay
Ya ive heard a lot of them miss the old affix system, just not bad affixes
mighty valley
That's how they measured success of the changes
no, he said they stopped receiving that feedback from regular players
round pendant
The pros stop complaining, the homogenized casual masses stop complaining too because they're just following what the pros say
and the end result is a backwards system
because it's faulty logic to treat the feedback in that manner
solid sun
Guys are we still being friends
mighty valley
nope you just misinterpreted it
round pendant
sorry I forgot I’m brain damaged
I'm sorry it was mean
solid sun
The debate is meaningless if we aren’t still being friends
round pendant
The debate is meaningless if we aren’t still being friends
at least I spice this place up huh
round pendant
idk how to explain the point
coarse bay
Idk anything about ion or what happens in blizzard, but i just dont think ion has much if anything to do with feedback
round pendant
I know it in my heart of hearts but I can't put it in writing
not in a way that they'll understand
mighty valley
I think I know what you’re saying but it’s impossible to prove or falsify, it’s based on data and intentions we can’t know
round pendant
I don't even think it has to be intentionally nefarious, Harrow
I kinda made it sound like that by starting with saying I don't like Ion anymore
mighty valley
i think it’s reasonable to say “i think we lost some nuance in feedback when everyone forms their arguments in tandem with popular content creators” and you think it’s a dangerous slippery slope
cerulean tusk
if only they had different sources to look at with opinionated passionate people
round pendant
But he literally says in the interview that casual players aren't doing the content that that the feedback is relevant to and that those casual players WERE leaving that feedback
and then the result of the changes is that the feedback went away
lusty grotto
<:monkahmm:1382590600439664751> if only they had different sources to look at wi...
what makes you think they arent in here?
they 100% are
cerulean tusk
Habe you seen arms
round pendant
To me that literally sounds like because the pros were happy with the system after the changes, the casuals stopped leaving that feedback too and everybody wins
cerulean tusk
Seen OF
round pendant
but my argument is that the casuals lost
round pendant
and the pros lost too imo because affixes are good actually imo
lusty grotto
arms has a lot of memes, its sometimes hard to see actual discussion
coarse bay
I think a major problem with the player base is that when they and their circle of people all have an opinion and think it’s the popular or only opinion. I dont think people realize how small of an amount of people are on discord or consuming wow content
mighty valley
But he literally says in the interview that casual players aren't doing the cont...
all levels had affixes so everyone experienced them, but the negative effects of them disproportionately affected top level players
lusty grotto
To me that literally sounds like because the pros were happy with the system aft...
youre ignoring what i said about the pros
mighty valley
affixes were not meaningfully stopping mid level players from reaching their goals
lusty grotto
what they didnt like was being fucked by push weeks
not affixes themselves
that was the core problem the pros had
lusty grotto
how do you solve that? balancing is just that... a balancing act
we're back to older keys where an affix was either easy or was dogshit
round pendant
I still think the end result of no affixes for higher end players is bad and affixes for casuals who are less equipped to deal with complex scenarios is bad
and interpretting the data as homogenised and splitting it ended up in what is effectively a backwards solution
lusty grotto
right now, if they extended xal's affixes, everyone would be okay with them, provided extremely high scaling wasn't a problem with missing an affix
cerulean tusk
all levels had affixes so everyone experienced them, but the negative effects of...
Low skill players suffered (and suffers) cause they dont know how to play around them.
Mid range struggle to be efficient around them
And high range is hamstrung by push weeks deciding the season
It was problems at all levels
round pendant
Hell, just removing the weekly rotation of affixes and 2 sets of dungeon ratings would have achieved the same result while changing nothing about the game
same result in the form of feedback I mean
round pendant
I'm tired boss
coarse bay
Why are we talking about affixes
It’s an example, ya
cerulean tusk
Why are we talking about affixes
Nop, this is just stirring the pot and trying to pretend you can change someones mind with words.
We kinda got three discussion points going atm
lusty grotto
yam, we get what youre saying
its just we've seen and probably you yourself have seen so much worse
round pendant
yeah like I said the affix thing is minor and did happen to make the game better
but it's a broken clock kinda thing
imo
vivid orchid
some of the bad affix combos I just straight up didnt do them that week sometimes
cerulean tusk
Yep, we remember 
round pendant
The best part of it was just not having to do the dungeons twice at the same level for your full rating
coarse bay
Im sorry i think im kinda lost on the main thing because i wasnt here at the start
In 1 sentence, what we talking
mighty valley
the fort/tyran split was diabolical i will agree
coarse bay
Is it that blizzard doesnt take feedback properly?
round pendant
I'm someone who liked thundering so
mighty valley
In 1 sentence, what we talking
a rat’s nest of different issues it’s not super worth continuing. therefore we’re now talking about which season of the sopranos was best
round pendant
never watched it
accept my apology for calling you brain damaged
so I can take my leave
cerulean tusk
the fort/tyran split was diabolical i will agree
Meh, even things like bolstering or grevious could end the week
Especially for ppl who just wanted to have fun. Then it was explosive week, and your healer just didnt want to play
Affixes overall was more a hassle than a fun thing
lusty grotto
dat me, my nest
mighty valley
apology accepted. we both approach these arguments in ways that drive the other insane clearly lol
lusty grotto
i personally dont have an issue with it C:
cerulean tusk
Yam yammers and harrow is harrowing, rat is rat and is hard to get away from the hat
lusty grotto
but i assume nobody does, which might be bad
round pendant
I only got annoyed and called him brain damaged cause he said bye
COME BACK AND ARGUE
cerulean tusk
... Now kiss
solid sun
Now we are friends
round pendant
literally
cerulean tusk
and you gotta send that full execute
inhales
round pendant
also I guess part of my argument against it all is vibes
lusty grotto
round pendant
like
idk who it was
harrow, muse?
we can't really know exactly how they make the decisions
cerulean tusk
I know
round pendant
This is why I propose WoW moves to a polling system
solid sun
I make a lot of the decisions
round pendant
imagine they seperate pvp, raid, m+ and then send polls to players at certain brackets on how they'd like the modes to change
lusty grotto
i would be massively entertained at what the community votes on
like grimrail depot
LOL
vivid orchid
god
round pendant
OSRS polling almost always results in the correct choice
lusty grotto
look look all im saying is
cerulean tusk
Please no more vote things, I beg
I can only cheese so many of em
lusty grotto
it was bad, but you gotta laugh at it now
round pendant
There's some dodgy things they can do with the questions and options though
grimrail depot goes hard
if only it didn't suck so bad
solid sun
Voting got us the fucking sky boat dungeon again
cerulean tusk
if only it didn't suck so bad
Shit aint so bad, if only it wasnt shit.
IT IS SHIT YAM
coarse bay
Voting got us the fucking sky boat dungeon again
I was about to say
coarse bay
I didnt like this season because of the repeats
cerulean tusk
Same