Rsham gets a pretty good boost from dh and the damage profile is really solid because you get boatloads of prio and don’t really lose much aoe
#protection
frosty mango
plush tendon
we did a pick up group yesterday; War/Rdruid/Ret/BM/Havoc
frosty mango
Also dh and mage are insanely tanky
plush tendon
timed some 17s and a 18s streets
DH aint that tanky
its got great leach
but its defensives are pretty meh
and nether is funky
frosty mango
They are if they play right, they’re mobile and blur is very short cd
Bm is due for a nerf tho
They’re flying too close to the sun
plush tendon
funny of you to think that blizz is gonna nerf anything
this expansion is straight over; aint no tuning happening until midnight
feral prairie
im trying to improved but i find it difficult to see what is killing em then my healbar doesnt move then all sudden collapses. this is froma a16 dawn. first pull after first boss. i went in with full cds felt real nice then all the sudden my pain went from 60 to 0 and i died thru wall.
plush tendon
They are if they play right, they’re mobile and blur is very short cd
blur is a 1 min 20% DR.... aint no one writing home to mom about that
and mobility could be a positive or negative....
especially with havocs
lusty grotto
im trying to improved but i find it difficult to see what is killing em then my ...
logs, not details windows
and then we can properly help out
plush tendon
yea, well need a log
but my gut tells me you got way too many shadowblade stacks
and legit are incapable of recieving healing
plush tendon
yea, you have 28-29 stacks so 60% healing reduction
indigo hawk
Logs are all the Time more accurate ?
frosty mango
im trying to improved but i find it difficult to see what is killing em then my ...
The tacticians are killing you
frosty mango
They are getting enraged because they are alive too long
indigo hawk
Ok 
frosty mango
They need to be soothed or you need to prio them
orchid narwhal
thats the middle church pull after first boss right
feral prairie
yes
orchid narwhal
that cast goiong off on him the entire time is also doiong a good bit of fuckery to you
nocturne spindle
you can kite tacticians as well
frosty mango
You should also be shield walling when you have shadow blade stacks and tacticians enraged
orchid narwhal
its a few things, tacticians being enraged + cast going off on yo
Its hard to survive both of those things at the same time, have to have shield wall for it
frosty mango
You died there bc you misplayed imo - if you had wall up you’d have lived
feral prairie
i see okay thx for info
nocturne spindle
as ive gone higher i dont like doing all 8 mobs in front of the church either
i do this one now
bleak scaffold
Something is missing right ?
lusty grotto
the beam channel seems the biggest offender
nocturne spindle
?
frosty mango
i dont think thats the entire picture
I am not an artist but I think I’m Picasso on this one
frosty mango
I’d be willing to bet we look at a log and he got clapped by a tactician melee there
plush tendon
i do this one now
yea, the 8 pull is so cursed
plush tendon
we still do it; whats your full route @nocturne spindle
nocturne spindle
i like this one now
frosty mango
bring in the blizzard dps meter
Why so people can send you screenshots from that with even less detail
lusty grotto
absolutely
less details?
more like
No details
so either they log or they're fucked
plush tendon
plush tendon
we do this currently
pallid quiver
joke's on everyone, blizz dps meter just always shows you on top with a smiley face
frosty mango
Actual pic of Nim
plush tendon
and its worked for a 17.... but I honestly think the only way to get more time in this dungeon is more damage which is super cringe 😭
lusty grotto
dw
bleak scaffold
Love your galsses Nim
lusty grotto
what theyll do is record shit
nocturne spindle
7 saves time since theres no jank with moving stuff in or out
lusty grotto
but honestly, i dont think that's as bad as detials breakdowns
bleak scaffold
I mean it's just an addition made by an external tool from blizz logs, we have this like what ? day 10 of the game release ? :x
lusty grotto
wat
bleak scaffold
They took 20years to do it, i hope they going to get it right
lusty grotto
????
bleak scaffold
Details, is like one of the oldest addon, or equivalent
lusty grotto
fuck no
i want it to show only dps
did you miss the entire first portion of what i was saying?
bleak scaffold
No .. Details is not inventing anything right ?
bleak scaffold
Just saying a "details" by blizz cannot be worst than the actual addon for measuring DPS
Details adds numbers given by the game, it's not that complicated, they can do it !
lusty grotto
brother i dont give a shit about what they do as long as they dont put in breakdowns so we have tolerate screenshots of details breakdowns
any longer
plush tendon
7 saves time since theres no jank with moving stuff in or out
so is yours faster?
how is that mini boss with two of the ghosts?
nocturne spindle
you pull the ghosts like a bit staggered?
whenever they do the damage ability you pull blobs
oh you mean the 1st one
yea its fine
plush tendon
yea, my pull 6 shouldnt be tough
but the ground affects in that area for some reason kill people all the god damn time
pretty sure the the Z axis hides the visual
nocturne spindle
naw
its uhhhh
how do i put it
that specific aoe just like doesnt show if the mob is on a different texture than where it targets
so if the shadow is on the stairs and the rain is hitting the ground outside
plush tendon
-_-
nocturne spindle
the ground ones doesnt show
its a problem throughout that dungeon
same with tactician frontal
if it like, crosses ground textures
it disappears
even on pull 11
where its like the bridge texture on the read area ive circled
if the swirly guys are outside of that and the rain targets someone on there
plush tendon
yea, I fight them on the stone
nocturne spindle
its invis
plush tendon
where the 3 pack on the right is
plush tendon
idk, Im a little skeptical of pulling two of the ghost with the abysall blast
wont someone just fall over to bad RNG
nocturne spindle
i unno maybe if its real bad
plush tendon
ive seen it go on the same person 3-4 times in a row
somehow that person wasnt our DK
frosty mango
Combat logs are printed in real time
It would be simple enough to build a tool to do local log analysis in real time
Kinda surprised wcl doesn’t do this already
It already has log parsing capabilities it would just be display capabilities
cerulean tusk
You thinking of the whole "aug value in real time" thing?
lusty grotto
if they do an ACT type program it'd be harder to track i guess
unless warden checks whats open
lusty grotto
i dont mean reading memory
gritty relic
Hi guys, new prot warrior lf any guides for tanking m+, currently doing 13-15s and looking to go higher
frosty mango
All they’d need to do is add a visual display of each parsed log
It’s an electron app it would probs be pretty trivial
lusty grotto
yeah
frosty mango
Hi guys, new prot warrior lf any guides for tanking m+, currently doing 13-15s ...
The wowhead guide is very thorough
lusty grotto
so is the icyveins guide
frosty mango
Who writes iv, mwahi?
lusty grotto
yup
anyway id imagine wcl is already getting their hands dirty with concepts
but i doubt they will announce something so soon
frosty mango
I find it hilarious that we’re basically coming full circle
And this is my primary concern with addon killing
Is Pandora’s box is open, wow is a server client game, it’s possible to make combat addons based on network traffic similar to how act works
People will find ways to make it happen
lusty grotto
that will 100% happen
lusty grotto
and it already does, just on a minor scale
frosty mango
Yeah but now we’re talking about getting to a ff14 place where
It’s prolific, but technically unsupported
frosty mango
And with a game like wow I think that is dangerous to it’s large and very-not-technically-inclined playerbase
lusty grotto
yeah
its interesting though, im not sure how effective warden is considering the kick bots in pvp
frosty mango
With windows sandboxing in full swing I don’t think warden will matter
You could sandbox a process and give it access to your network traffic while making it invisible to warden - it would take a little effort but I see that happening
And probably happening now
sharp merlin
Who’s the writer of WH?
lusty grotto
Nome
frosty mango
Who’s the writer of WH?
Nome
sharp merlin
Oh I thought it was you
frosty mango
Nomechip
sharp merlin
Hahahaha
lusty grotto
im just here to fuel my ADHD when nothing is happening at work
pallid quiver
im just here to fuel my ADHD when nothing is happening at work
just write gundam fanfiction for me instead of brainrotting in skyhold
frosty mango
just write gundam fanfiction for me instead of brainrotting in skyhold
ChatGPT
It exists, it’s got you covered
pallid quiver
i kil u
lusty grotto
i gotta be honest, nothing of what you just said appeals to me
pallid quiver
i gotta be honest, nothing of what you just said appeals to me
i kil u 2
lusty grotto
didnt you get the memo i was a japanese cartoon non-enjoyer
pallid quiver
he hates giant robots
that means nim hates me, specifically
i'm removing you from my friend list smh
lusty grotto
whenever my friends (or anyone else) start talking about anime, i maladaptive daydream about the most random shit
frosty mango
lusty grotto
frosty mango
didnt you get the memo i was a japanese cartoon non-enjoyer
What about robotech
urban portal
is this EW fanfiction
frosty mango
Which is technically American adapted Japanese cartoons
frosty mango
Yes but better
pallid quiver
I'M MID EKY
frosty mango
Bc America
lusty grotto
lusty grotto
lol
frosty mango
He died to a bolt
That he could have stopped
Too busy spamming that divine storm though
round pendant
On the funnel mobs I bet
frosty mango
Later in the key he bopped me
solid sun
Ret Paladin is banned
lusty grotto
Ret Paladin is banned
solid sun
Nimadin isn’t
One time I asked for a freedom in the last room of AK and the ret bop’d me instead
Was sick as heck
lusty grotto
unfortunately nimchipadin is banned this season on account that i have no time
remix + bf6 week baby
solid sun
You just gotta get one of those weakauras that plays the game for you
What a silly goose
warm plinth
@solid sun are you playing remix
solid sun
Yep
frosty mango
Remix seems like so much work
warm plinth
Know what you're gonna make?
frosty mango
Plus I hated legion it made me quit the game
Though I did reroll warrior when I came back so
solid sun
I’m undecided. Mage maybe?
warm plinth
I have no idea what I'm playing. Might just do pwar or bm since they're my current mains
Have no reason to level anything specific
lusty grotto
im playing warrior
fuck it
if it was legion talents and balance, i wouldnt play it but
i figure a 2nd warrior isnt a bad idea
also nelf
might also make a nelf DK and a dwarf paladin just for funsies after i get the exp buff thingie or w/e its called
warm plinth
I don't think I'm smart enough for current havoc
lusty grotto
its easy
dusky canopy
Does the spec still play around essence break window?
chilly brook
Does the spec still play around essence break window?
yes but essence break seems deadge in midnight
so
dusky canopy
🤮
solid sun
Current havoc retreats across mobs and blade dances right?
warm plinth
Essence break and initiative are too much for my brain to handle
dusky canopy
I dislike both
solid sun
Ghash and I are the same person
lusty grotto
use souls -> which give you big glaive
send glaive -> chaos strike -> blade dance
thats it
warm plinth
I liked havoc before it became the minmax these tiny windows spec
dusky canopy
Yep ^
solid sun
I outdps’d my own fury warrior with my prot warrior
lusty grotto
its not as hard as that
warm plinth
Momentum was always strong but you never had to play it because it was worse if you didn't play optimally
solid sun
I cannot be trusted with almost any spec apparently
warm plinth
So I just didn't
lusty grotto
yeah but momentum doesnt really exist
chilly brook
I cannot be trusted with almost any spec apparently
play devastation
warm plinth
I know but they just replaced it with other short windows triggered by movement
solid sun
play devastation
If I could do that as something that wasn’t an icky dragon I’d consider it
chilly brook
Press empowered spells on CD, max rank firebreath if you have engulf ready send at r2 if not. Then just press blue beam as much as possible gg wp.
lusty grotto
most people just play exergy anyway which is like stupid easy to maintain
solid sun
I saw a frost mage on twitter say something like, “we have been cut down to five buttons. Way too simple now” and I was like yo isn’t five buttons definitely enough?
lusty grotto
when i played it on dummies and watched jedith for a bit, shit isnt too deep
chilly brook
where are my class balance changes for the .5 patch?
chilly brook
I saw a frost mage on twitter say something like, “we have been cut down to five...
frost mage is the only spec of mage that seems like it came out better than it is on live, every other spec and the mage class as a whole got pruned to hell
dusky canopy
I saw a frost mage on twitter say something like, “we have been cut down to five...
I would argue yes!
We do not need to have 10 rotational buttons
chilly brook
and when you picked a mechanically demanding class because it was mechanically demanding and then you just lose most of that....I can totally understand why they have that reaction
lusty grotto
mages wanted the 3 button spec to be frost and not fire, thats the problem
since historically frost has been easier
solid sun
But five buttons seems like enough to me
chilly brook
I mean mage didn't have a 10 button rotation on any spec
dusky canopy
Yeah I’m not sure how many buttons mages realistically used rotationally tbh I just know in general 4/5 is like a good comfortable amount + cooldowns ofc
chilly brook
but they got oversimplified
solid sun
Did you see the preheat clip
For arcane in aoe
I mean maybe it’s still only 3 buttons but it looked sick as hell
I’m down for whatever that was
chilly brook
Simplification isn't necessarily a bad thing, it becomes a bad thing when it negatively impacts the skill ceiling imo
dusky canopy
I played fire for the first time when the legion rework came out and that was the absolute best it has ever felt imo
solid sun
How many buttons was it
dusky canopy
5
chilly brook
which is certainly a possibility in terms of simplification, but when it egregiously does it it becomes a huge problem
dusky canopy
Well if you want to include the ring you had place in the floor for dps idr its name then 6
Pretty sure that was just ring of power
chilly brook
fire now is combust, fireball, instant cast button forget the name, phoenix, scorch, pyro and shifting iirc
solid sun
One thing I’ll say about fire and I’m not sure if this is still real or not but I feel like it existed only when combustion existed and that seems like it shouldn’t be a thing imo
chilly brook
and combust and shifting are CDs
solid sun
I’d rather always exist but exist even harder when it’s time for CDs
chilly brook
so it's like 5 rotational
and it lost scorch and phoenix in midnight
and shifting power
it's literally 3 button spec
dusky canopy
Legion was just combust on cd
Fireball until you get a heat proc
Fire blast to get an insta pyro send insta pyro and and also weave in phoenix charges to get insta pyros as well
That was the spec at its peak
For me anyway
chilly brook
oh and it lost shifting power + mass barrier + DR on greater invis + a CC
and a couple other things
so like
yeah I'd be pissed if I was a fire mage
solid sun
It’s an interesting conversation imo. I have no interest in playing current fire mage but if it’s significantly easier or simpler I’d absolutely try it out. Three buttons doesn’t bother me. I like BM Hunter too
dusky canopy
And the combust window felt amazing because you would just rotate pyro and your instants
chilly brook
It’s an interesting conversation imo. I have no interest in playing current fire...
But that begs the question, there are 40 specs in midnight, does every single one need to appeal to you?
lusty grotto
i loved fire mage in BFA
except for the fact that you needed that dumb ass trinket from azshara
pallid quiver
macross or some shit
Among other things, this is my issue with Robotech.
Because Harmony Gold, the people who made Robotech, had Macross rights, America land was never allowed to get Macross stuff.
Robotech was also a weird bastardization that mixed multiple different series.
The worst part, however, was them fucking with another western product, that being Battletech. They drilled Battletech down for years with lawsuits and legal challenges to specific mech designs from Battletech, and basically did legal trolling to just fund themselves over many years.
harmony gold a doo doo
round pendant
Legion Arms was fun
pallid quiver
now that i'm out of that key and can bitch smh
On topic, I've never played Fire Mage in my life, so I have zero idea how it changed from expac to expac
chilly brook
like legit, I don't think every spec needs to be ultra simplified in the direction that the game is moving
I don't have an issue with removing extra buffs that don't really add to gameplay but are important for performance
lusty grotto
i honestly dont give a shit, they could simplify all they want, im not playing all specs anyway
chilly brook
but fire mage didn't need the ass beating it got
dusky canopy
I’m ngl griff I tend to lean the opposite way, I think specs should be more approachable for the “many” rather than appease the “few” with complex design
dusky canopy
This is supposed to be an RPG after all
They just have slowly drifted from that over time
lusty grotto
but i do agree there needs to be some kind of middle ground on some
chilly brook
I’m ngl griff I tend to lean the opposite way, I think specs should be more appr...
And if most specs are that then what is left to appeal to people who find most specs too simple?
We can't have every single spec be simple
round pendant
The way I see it, there's two groups of people
- People who do content that requires a good amount of mastery of your class and as such they probably just enjoy the complexity
- People who don't need to concern themselves with it at all
chilly brook
Even Fellowship (which imo is still more simple class/hero design) has more "complex" characters
round pendant
catering to the group who don't even need to play optimally just ruins it for those who like that part of the game
lusty grotto
honestly griff, the fault is on blizzard for overcomplicating everything to begin with, the complexity creep shouldn't have happened, thats the problem, people are used to such complexity that they cant fathom going back, but i dont think anyone realistically will stop playing outright because of it
chilly brook
Because for some people, they enjoy mastering a difficult class
chilly brook
honestly griff, the fault is on blizzard for overcomplicating everything to begi...
Idk my mage buddy is on a cliff rn
he started playing in DF
so this is all he knows
lusty grotto
and if they do, its because they planned on quitting to begin with
pallid quiver
honestly griff, the fault is on blizzard for overcomplicating everything to begi...
I'm more likely to stop playing from being unable to customize my UI the way I want
round pendant
my healer friends too
dusky canopy
We can't have every single spec be simple
Once this is exactly how it was though
It just got worse over time
Imo that was a mistake on their part
chilly brook
and if they do, its because they planned on quitting to begin with
trust me he didn't plan on quitting lol
pallid quiver
I'll be mad about the lack of complexity on specs; I play a lot of complex chars in fight games,
but wow's easy and simple enough that I'd just play and be mad
round pendant
yeah that's weird argument
chilly brook
but mage is what he enjoys and he was wanting to check out enhancement but they gutted that as well
round pendant
"if you're gonna quit over this thing I don't care about then you were gonna quit anyway"
lusty grotto
thats not what i said at all
round pendant
You're basically saying it's not a big enough of a deal to quit over
That's subjective
lusty grotto
thats not what i said at all still
chilly brook
Once this is exactly how it was though
not really, there have always been varying levels of complexity in classes even in vanilla
dusky canopy
Yes but not outlaw equivalent conditions
round pendant
no one thinks rtb is good
dusky canopy
That’s just insane and should be gutted imo
chilly brook
Your class is the vehicle in which you experience the game, if that vehicle is no longer fun to drive I think you have a high likelyhood of just not playing the game
It's pretty simple
round pendant
But that's an extreme example and also just an example of how certain things that are too brainfucky to track should have been tweaked. Not gutting whole specs
undone beacon
I think people who are like, quitting right now over the fucking first build of alpha are kneejerk reaction sheep. I don’t agree with some of these guttings but like, alpha is a time to post feedback and iterate. If you hate the new designs give them informed constructive feedback. Or just cancel your sub. It’s maddening lmao
chilly brook
Yes but not outlaw equivalent conditions
Outlaw has a lot of problems and I would agree but mage isn't outlaw
warm plinth
That’s just insane and should be gutted imo
Outlaw did get gutted in the sense that a lot of the complexity was removed in alpha
undone beacon
I get being sad your spec got shot in the first alpha build but it’s not going live tomorrow
zenith elbow
The primary mistake with Outlaw was the introduction of the RNG Roll the Bones. That should never have happened.
solid sun
I think this is a good baseline to start from. You can always increase depth later after forming the approachable foundation
dusky canopy
Outlaw class fantasy’s wise is one of my top picks but it’s so god awful to try to optimize that I have never even attempted to do
lusty grotto
if your mind is on quitting because of what they announced and on a week 1 alpha, without providing an ounce of feedback to reverse some of these decisions, it really doesnt look good on paper - i know its unrealistic to provide alpha feedback, but at least have it ready for when beta hits
pallid quiver
thats not what i said at all still
For the record, your wording did lead itself very well to being read that way, though I wager it wasn't your intent
chilly brook
I think people who are like, quitting right now over the fucking first build of ...
While I agree that it's too early to be a doomer, at the same time what has Blizzard given mages to trust in? Because a lot of the times they've adjusted Arcane in the last expansion it was not received well
limber horizon
Do you not think that with even less complexity, people will still strive to be "the best" at that less complex rotation and play style. Very few people have mastered their class and even with a simpler class design people still wont play perfectly. Way back when it was much less complex people got enjoyment out of the game so much, its on Blizzard to keep things interesting in that way. But a lot of people are dooming without actually playing anything yet.
lusty grotto
For the record, your wording did lead itself very well to being read that way, t...
yeah i guess i didnt add the rest
pallid quiver
Outlaw class fantasy’s wise is one of my top picks but it’s so god awful to try ...
I'm an Outlaw hater because I hate change and it used to be combat
warm plinth
You could remove rtb and i doubt outlaw would suffer or that any players would care
dusky canopy
I also enjoyed combat back in MoP that was my main alt
warm plinth
But it is a lot simpler in alpha right now
dusky canopy
Way more casual noober back then
But still
I guess what I’m getting at is I think there’s probably a lot of people in my shoes where it would awesome to live out the fantasy of another class/spec but some of them are so over complicated that it’s not even worth bothering
I’m glad they’re pruning personally
warm plinth
And it would get rid of the dumb keep it rolling shit which they've still somehow decided to keep lol
warm plinth
I agree
warm plinth
Resto shaman is certainly a choice
lusty grotto
hell not even shadow
pallid quiver
lets at least agree that some specs did get overpruned though
Blizz almost agreed with R Sham when they pruned Healing Surge, but then they went "uhhhh it'll be fine i guess"
lusty grotto
shadow is fine, except 90% of their shit is a dps loss
dusky canopy
lets at least agree that some specs did get overpruned though
I don’t know enough about every specs changes to really agree or not but k owning blizzard it’s probably very much the case yes
Some complexity is good
pallid quiver
That's really my only real thought on the game design at the moment is removing Surge from Resto Shaman; it's a change that literally directly goes against their stated intents for healers
lusty grotto
everyone else is good
round pendant
I don't like the sin changes
round pendant
There's lots of lil simplifications that just make things less fun for me
lusty grotto
i understand why they are doing it
round pendant
And at the end of the day I just want the game to keep being around as fun (or more) as it is for me right now, not less
chilly brook
I guess what I’m getting at is I think there’s probably a lot of people in my sh...
living out that fantasy does not mean you have to be proficient at it tbf
round pendant
but some changes are like eeeehhhhhh
lusty grotto
just gotta provide feedback to hopefully get a middle ground
at worst
and at best a reversal
dusky canopy
living out that fantasy does not mean you have to be proficient at it tbf
That is a fair argument I can’t really debate that but I think it’s fair to say that people probably want to be able to play whatever spec they choose in the level of content they normally participate in
lusty grotto
well i mean there's also the fact that healers are required to install vuhdo and then cell to name a few things
they need a lot more improvements to raid frames and party frames for sure
solid sun
That is a fair argument I can’t really debate that but I think it’s fair to say ...
I would argue most people don’t want to live out a fantasy by being gods worst whatever it is
dusky canopy
Well that too a lot of the fun factor comes from knowing you’re “killing it” as X spec
round pendant
I think the gap between someone new to a spec and someone very experienced is important personally
It's what makes you feel rewarded for putting that time and effort in
lusty grotto
off the top of my head from what ive seen in the alpha:
- raid frames need a lot more
- nameplates need threat and at least some coloring to mark specific mobs somehow
- the stupid personal resource display needs to have a lot more customizable shit and/or add resources to a different bar/cooldown tracker
and if im thinking about it
im sure there's a lot more people also thinking about it
round pendant
off the top of my head from what ive seen in the alpha:
- raid frames need a lot...
I've never used that personal resource thing lmao
dusky canopy
Well yes ofc skill expression can and should still exist it just doesn’t need to be astronomically different
round pendant
also point 2, it'd be nice if you could open up the dungeon journal and see the map + Mob positions + mobs themselves and say, set a colour for the mobs health bar
imagine that
round pendant
Well yes ofc skill expression can and should still exist it just doesn’t need to...
Personally there's not much satisfaction in a game where there's only 1 or 2 minor optimisations that give me 10% more dps than someone brand new
there's always the gameplay side tho, like just actually pressing your CDs at good times and uptime and whatnot
lusty grotto
and positioning
like uhh
smash bros vs any other fighter perhaps?
*waits for Luerce to chime in *
dusky canopy
Skill expression can also be in the form of knowing the encounter perfectly and timing abilities or cooldowns to perfectly optimize your output
It does not have to be how good you are at monitoring 7 buffs that synergize with one another on your spec
round pendant
Are they gonna make heroic actually engaging content then?
solid sun
Isn’t that how 14 handles black mage
lofty warren
Which buttons are being removed for pwar 12.0?
round pendant
It does not have to be how good you are at monitoring 7 buffs that synergize wit...
This is hyperbole because most specs aren't like that even now
frosty mango
off the top of my head from what ive seen in the alpha:
- raid frames need a lot...
Nameplates need a lot more. As it stands I’m hoping plater will be able to still color nameplates based on mob names but I highly doubt that
lusty grotto
Isn’t that how 14 handles black mage
i understand what youre going for... but it applies to every class in WoW and job in xiv
round pendant
I just dunno why people can't talk about this without distorting the current reality of class design lol
dusky canopy
I just picked the first number that came to mind to get my thought across
The point is still the same
round pendant
Why is there no place for specs like that though? because someone wants to roleplay as a pirate?
There's a nice balance of complex and simple specs imo
dusky canopy
I personally don’t think there is a place for specs like current outlaw in a fantasy mmo rpg
lofty warren
If you want to micro manage a bunch of bs then affliction may be your jam.. at least that's how it was dunno about new afflic
solid sun
I think there’s more specs than people probably realize that are either hard to approach, hard to understand, or hard to master
dusky canopy
It speaks for itself based on the specs participation rate in mythic raiding
pallid quiver
Personally there's not much satisfaction in a game where there's only 1 or 2 min...
this man's over here talking shit about our 3 damage optimizations we find in uni
you hate to see it
yam hates me, specifically
dusky canopy
I just use outlaw as my example because it’s the most extreme example that I’m aware of
solid sun
And I think a lot of people, especially people who frequent somewhere like here a lot, are probably a little jaded or have a little bias towards how difficult this game can be for people
Or maybe I mean against how difficult it can be
Whatever
pallid quiver
Yeah, I just had a healer recently who said they can't cast healing spells if they're not in melee
i ain't the best mistweaver around, but
i know that's a bold faced lie
round pendant
There are people coming in here literally doing it wrong in +18s. You don't need to play optimally to get far in current retail clearly
So I'm just wondering why it's such a big deal
solid sun
I’d wager those people are getting carried considerably tbh
And don’t even realize how much they might suck
But if I know I’m doing horribly I’m not going to have fun doing it
Doesn’t matter if I’m also timing 17s
lofty warren
Doing wrong is true for everyone that isn't a machine. Question is what is the materiality of the wrong thing
round pendant
yam hates me, specifically
true
(kidding)
but yeah, to me the target demographic for the simplification of the game aren't even people who need to play even remotely near the top level anyway
but it just guts the game for people who strive to just improve every time they play
(as a concept, obv we don't know how far they'll take it)
lament osprey
They just trying to reset everything
People just over reacting and scared of ui
They will build on it
dusky canopy
The more they do to enable people to be able to approach what this game considers the “end game” the better imo
frosty mango
i ain't the best mistweaver around, but
i know that's a bold faced lie
I mean it is true in m+
lament osprey
Or just go to shit and everyone quits
frosty mango
Very not true in raid
proud nimbus
its overall a good thing, most classes could use less not more buttons and after that its easier to add something than take it away each season
frosty mango
You can technically cast healing spells as chiji Yulon build but they won’t do any healing lol
lofty warren
Blizz has to reduce complexity by ~25% to make up for the fact that weak auras will be dead.
There will still be plenty of optimization to be had
round pendant
yeah mw not in melee in m+ = everyone dies
frosty mango
Game will be fine
round pendant
its overall a good thing, most classes could use less not more buttons and after...
There's a path where things can be good but I just don't really trust blizzard's reasoning on a fundamental level
frosty mango
Different, but fine
And in a year we’ll have new things to complain about
Well we’ll still complain about people not kicking or doing below-tank dps
But there will be new things too!
proud nimbus
people failing their 4 button rotations
lofty warren
How will wars know whether to reflect, deflect and if the dot is spell reflectable (will it bounce back, reduce damage, or do nothing) in 12.0?
proud nimbus
oh wait thats bm
frosty mango
Most classes do not have mechanically complex rotations
Please tell me which spec has more than 5 keys in its main rotation
unreal yarrow
Gotta keep a spreadsheet open in your second window
lofty warren
Arcane mage is complex i think. Something about needing a weak aura to know when to cast arcane barrage
unreal yarrow
See cast, just cross reference the xls. Easy
frosty mango
Mechanically complex =\= logically complex.
No spec has more than a few buttons
Logical complexity is where most specs struggle
solid sun
Well that frost mage said they’ve been reduced to five buttons
frosty mango
Buff windows, overlapping timings, stacking buffs
solid sun
So I assume they currently have more than that
frosty mango
Do they though?
solid sun
Idk I’m not a wizard
frosty mango
Because I bet if you looked at their core rotation they don’t
solid sun
Idk the internet doesn’t lie
frosty mango
I just went and looked, it’s 5
solid sun
And that dude said they’ve been pruned down to five
dusky canopy
Logical complexity is where most specs struggle
Exactly
frosty mango
Unless you count shifting power
solid sun
So they must have more than that now
frosty mango
Anyway my point is everyone is freaking out saying “omg no buttons” but really they already have no buttons
They have logical complexity
They are fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the change
plush tendon
if we talking bout fire mage
frosty mango
Frost
plush tendon
oh frost
frosty mango
But I’m talking about any spec
plush tendon
I heard frost was fun in midnight
frosty mango
Find me a spec with more than 5-6 buttons in its core rotation
plush tendon
but for fire, I think the prune is good
frosty mango
I don’t think it exists
plush tendon
no one liked pheonix flames
though I do think in combustion fireball should turn into scorch
frosty mango
Petition to rename scorch scroch
plush tendon
naw
cerulean tusk
and now prot?
plush tendon
Warrior and DK
dusky canopy
Arms warrior next patch
plush tendon
I like what they are doing for my classes
dusky canopy
Can’t wait
cerulean tusk
You guys disgust me
frosty mango
None of those have more than 5 buttons in their core rotation!
plush tendon
I think people are a bit upset about Unholy
but I think its really cool thematically
dusky canopy
Lmao
plush tendon
mages are the MC of wow
the rest of us are just NPCs compared to mage
its sad but tru
dusky canopy
Most mages are NPCs compared to the top 5 in the world lmao
plush tendon
though I will say... if making mage simple makes the mages in LFG not dog shit
Im all for it
dusky canopy
Preach
lofty warren
Mechanically complex =\\= logically complex.
What's the difference
plush tendon
Im excited for midnight; cant wait for beta
for me, it really hinges on how good all the in game UI stuff turns out
dusky canopy
Im excited for midnight; cant wait for beta
Likewise!
plush tendon
I love playing simple classes so that my focus is on whats in front of me
and not tracking half a dozen little buffs and procs
dusky canopy
round pendant
oh thank god I don't have to get curve this season
no pug hell for me
My friend got it without me for once
dusky canopy
It’s rather difficult to pug
plush tendon
Demi is a pretty chill fight surely
round pendant
I mean
ansurek took like 80 wipes in pugs
which considering the groups fall apart every wipe
it's a long ass time of the most boring shit imaginable
undermine was ez
but I tried dimensius and got to p2 once
plush tendon
Im basically just doing 2/8 mythic four times a week now
finite lava
I'm brand new to prot warrior, is there any m+ talent I can remove to make it easier? It's just information overload at the moment
plush tendon
I'm brand new to prot warrior, is there any m+ talent I can remove to make it ea...
the Mythic + push build is as simple as its gonna get
cerulean tusk
I'm brand new to prot warrior, is there any m+ talent I can remove to make it ea...
Here is all you need:
Face your enemy
Keep shieldblock up at all times
Press shieldslam when you can
thunderclap when you can
Then some extra
Use CDs, on CD, till you understand when to use CDs
Use ignore pain when you got more than 80 rage
Aight
you are ready to do 18 keys now
Godspeed
urban portal
ya
round pendant
it's up so often that it's kinda hard to end up not having it when you NEED it
just save it before boss fights and that covers 99% of any issues with having it
lofty warren
I last stand on cd. . Don't you?
round pendant
as you basically should
lofty warren
Good sir I dont see last stand in the wowhead dps rotation. Should cycle defensives as needed not just randomly press it
cerulean tusk
Getting ppl to start pressing the buttons in the first place, is a lot harder than getting them to press it at the right place
As it is a new guy asking, new guy solutions and answers stand stronk
plush tendon
yea, when you just start playing the game you dont know enough to be like 'well, I will need SW in exactly 1:09 minutes so I shouldnt use it here'
and its not a retirement account. You dont gain uses when you 'save them' its a use them or lose em type deal with CDs
mighty valley
especially on live with so much shield wall cdr
you're really burning possible casts if you sit on it
finite lava
the Mythic + push build is as simple as its gonna get
wait, push or weekly? I chose weekly
plush tendon
wait, push or weekly? I chose weekly
if you want simple, push is simplier
finite lava
ah thakns
lofty warren
Push is more defensive
plush tendon
its both
jagged pier
if anything it kinda stops u from having to press execute
outside of single target
so 
finite lava
I see button light up, I press, ooga booga
You see I'm not actually rtarded I'm just a prot paladin main, forgive me
frosty mango
Playing push build is 95% just pressing shield slam and thunder blast on cooldown
And stuffing ignore pain between them
finite lava
Happy times, off to hit people, thanks guys
plush tendon
You see I'm not actually rtarded I'm just a prot paladin main, forgive me
is there a difference?
frosty mango
Sometimes you get like 3 bursting power procs in a row and you get so much dopamine
Just hnnnggggggghh as you press shield slam 54 times in a row
finite lava
Sometimes you get like 3 bursting power procs in a row and you get so much dopam...
who is this bursting power
lofty warren
:blizard:
dusky canopy
im bursting power
lofty warren
Where did dragon roar go in 12.0?
lusty grotto
its gone
lofty warren
Uhh why
lusty grotto
who cares
lofty warren
What replaced it?
lusty grotto
unbelievable power
lofty warren
I dont see that talent but in the class tree I want all 4 of the bottom ones. Last stand, champ spear, cdr on avatar and this
lusty grotto
have you tried typing the name in the talent calc
lofty warren
Km through talent calc I was about to get all 4 at the bottom
gritty relic
How important is race?
If im new to prot and looking to start pushing 15+ keys is dwarf really that much better than say maghar?
gritty relic
Well 15s is the starting point, I plan to try to go higher
lofty warren
In 12.0 you can get all of the row of bottom talents?
lusty grotto
we dont know pepega, the alpha literally just launched last week
even if we knew we dont care
cause the exp isnt releasing until february
burnt wharf
Can someone enlighten me about Brand of Ceaseless Ire? I know its bis (according to WoWHead) but if i sim it against Astral Antenna and Cursed Stone Idol (all at same ilvl and track) its outclassed by a few %. Does the Survivability boost make up for it?
lusty grotto
Can someone enlighten me about Brand of Ceaseless Ire? I know its bis (according...
sim 5 mins
ire needs 4 mins to fully stack
but also you have 2 trinket slots
and cursed stone idol has pretty much 0 single target and prio damage
which is a pretty big caveat
and also you cant block during the 1s cast
or parry
its great for vault keys though!
burnt wharf
So i ran a few other sims, even 6 min but Ire still falls 5% short (against Ara-Kara Sacbrood). Im a bit confused...
Is the defensive Part that good?
solid sun
Link the sim
lusty grotto
are they the same tracks?
burnt wharf
not same tracks but same ilvl
lusty grotto
link sim
burnt wharf
Dont look too closely on the stats, Gems etc, I have to play dps as main 🥲
coarse bay
I dont know if it matters, but you should sim patchwork not target dummy i think
dry skiff
after struggling at big momma, i tried saving demoralizing shout for each tank buster. i had to wait every time but i didnt feel anything. just wondering if it is wht every warrior does in high keys
nocturne spindle
its target dummy
you never get hit from the dummy
so ire never procs
do patchwork
burnt wharf
🤦♀️ coulda find that one out myself sorry for troubling you... xD
lusty grotto
after struggling at big momma, i tried saving demoralizing shout for each tank b...
after struggling on momma... this season?
devout wolf
hi guys. I have a question for mythic progress . In mythic nexus king, the tank gets mind control right after getting the soak mechanic alone. What is the reason for this?
lusty grotto
cause thats weird
lusty grotto
hi guys. I have a question for mythic progress . In mythic nexus king, the tank ...
that tank is dying
thats why he gets MCd
devout wolf
yeha but why
devout wolf
ther eis no reason
lusty grotto
but no tank can solo soak without externals
except maybe BDK
thats it
no externals = any other tank dies
tank dies = gets MCd
i would think you would check logs before asking here...
lyric summit
@ionic fern I've figured how to do dps on arms warrior
lyric summit
You just press N -> protection
lusty grotto
<@238357283996696576> I've figured how to do dps on arms warrior
silly goose
thats not arms
but good SR pad 🙂
HoA ftw
lyric summit
Pad ❌
Boss damage ✅
lusty grotto
well youre not wrong
but its pad only cause your dps arent smashing kick even though you communicate to them that they shouldnt 😉
lusty grotto
lyric summit
And then I can look good out of context
lusty grotto
also on mini boss !
burnt wharf
ty for the help @lusty grotto @nocturne spindle @coarse bay
dusky canopy
Wait aren’t those like the pad mobs that put the bleed on people?
round pendant
they're not really pad mobs
considering they murder your group
they're prio mobs lmao
dusky canopy
Those things get nuked if I’m thinking of the correct mob
dusky canopy
Interesting
round pendant
bm, fdk, arcane mage
sharp merlin
So frost DK dh and mage
lusty grotto
no funnel
sharp merlin
Is just asking for trouble
coarse bay
Itll do fine
coarse bay
5
In the case of dk
U could sub the mage or dh for a more aoe class if u want but that comp is workable for most keys probably
sharp merlin
Amazing! Thanks
round pendant
it's just all the arcanes I get are doing awful too
there was fuck all funnel in that key
coarse bay
With the meta classes, odds are that the good ones are already at higher io ranges and possibly in statics
Especially with a dh, you need to make sure the dk is playing ethically with boss funnel too
jagged bane
its not nearly as high as before
and its also not the funnel monster it was, even if its funnel is still really solid
in any big pull havoc shits all over arcane
even sub has more funnel in big pulls iirc
and assa
coarse sable
can someone tell me how many haste/crit/vers i should aim for in numbers?
coarse bay
can someone tell me how many haste/crit/vers i should aim for in numbers?
Raidbots can tell you what gear to put on
undone beacon
https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/us/class-tuning-incoming-october-7-21...
You what wasnt nerfed? Survival. Thats right surv sweep surv sweep
frosty mango
You what wasnt nerfed? Survival. Thats right surv sweep surv sweep
unironically I love surv
errant leaf
hello boys, anyone has a route for eco dome ? tryna get 16
coarse sable
i always get told you cant sim as tank... ok then i have to check this out thx
undone beacon
i always get told you cant sim as tank... ok then i have to check this out thx
You cant sim defensiveness/survivability but the general rule is that if it increases your damage, it increases your survivability since all stats for tanks have defensive value
lusty grotto
outside of very specific cases (shields and defensive trinkets)
coarse sable
ok
sorry for the stupid question then - is there a simming guide or is dungeonslice fine?
lusty grotto
no
dungeon slice is not fine
ST: default values are fine
either 3 min or 5 min work
AOE: 5 target patchwerk 1:30 mins duration
coarse sable
ok thx
round pendant
why the fuck are they nerfing halfway through the season
lusty grotto
mdi
round pendant
Discipline
Atonement healing increased by 15%.
Atonement healing is now increased by 75% outside of raids (was 100%).
lusty grotto
but also those nerfs dont matter
round pendant
lmao
lusty grotto
cerulean tusk
They trying really really hard to make it so Warrior finally is M+ meta
round pendant
god
yknow the 2nd shard on the left side of hoa
in my +15 I did earlier
everyone just kicked the same fucking caster
like 5x
NO ONE switched to the other one when it wasn't getting kicked
warm plinth
round pendant
I'm part of the problem tho cause I was like
Surely someone else will kick the other one next time right?
They did not
bystander effect in action
mighty valley
i'm always like
"i'd rather not charge the ranged one to kick it, surely a ranged will do it"
wait a few secs. no one's doing it
the second I charge, boom, ranged kick
torn gulch
i have one maybe stupid question
what would you guys wear between cloak enhancing boots on hero track and a myth track pair of boots
lusty grotto
absolutely not worth to use in 16s yea
torn gulch
i am getting told off by my friend that i should use the boots at all times
and i was like the cloak is RNG absorb it's not that important
round pendant
Your friend is wrong
lusty grotto
you should use them all the time... if youre a dps role
round pendant
yea
lusty grotto
but as a tank they are EH
round pendant
my cloak does like 11% of my healing
torn gulch
so if i am not raiding is hould not waste 3 dinars on them
lusty grotto
you should absolutely not dinar hero tracks, myth tracks are a good buy though
round pendant
so I'd get an extra 4.4% extra healing from those boots
but lose myth ilvl stats and main stat
lusty grotto
since they have perfect secondaries
torn gulch
there is no chance i see myth track boots or brand
lusty grotto
- cantrip
round pendant
yeah same
I ain't doing myth bosses for boots/brand and I don't have 5m gold to buy a carry
so I will just buy a hero brand and call it there pretty much
torn gulch
even if i had which i do
i don't get carries as a principle
round pendant
yeah I'm not a fan
torn gulch
no point
round pendant
never paid for a carry prob never will
torn gulch
i don't play at the bleeding edge where it matters anyway
round pendant
I don't think it makes any sense for the myth trinkets to be "gatekept" this late into the season when dinars are released tho tbh
all the gigachads who have it already have done everything they wanted this season and had their fun with their myth toys
god I just can't get more than like 15CPM on shield slam in keys
narrow jay
I keep seeing prot warrior logs of them pressing revenge 500 times in a key with 60% shield block and ignore pain uptime somehow timing 15s doing like no damage I feel bad for their healers lol
lusty grotto
thats why people compliment any vet in this channel a whole lot this season
ive been farming compliments
round pendant
I've had a few this season
I usually get 1 "best tank ever" in a season it's so cute
usually healers though but I'm playing 99% with my healer friend in higher keys this season so
round pendant
I keep seeing prot warrior logs of them pressing revenge 500 times in a key with...
you'll see it in +18s too 
south zealot
meta tanks are always played egregiously bad
like how are you even alive levels of bad
cerulean tusk
This might been the first expansion in a while where noone did the "I tanked key with no gear, WARRIOR BROKEN?!?!?" video. With a guy with max ilvl shield
round pendant
I won't shit on the guys who've come here looking for advice
but it's wild seeing some of the logs of timed high keys
round pendant
It's a teaching moment for them (since they asked for help) AND me (since I realised I can play way worse and time higher keys than I currently am)
cerulean tusk
Ya joined team "14s are basically old 7" yet, yam?
Soon ya will be
embrace the truth
frosty mango
but it's wild seeing some of the logs of timed high keys
You can pretty much w key your way through up to like 16/17 now as long as people use kicks and stops
Like other than floodgate dps is really not gatekeeping any keys
Most keys brick way before the end due to missed kick/stops
Or missed defensives
round pendant
Ya joined team "14s are basically old 7" yet, yam?
wdym lmao
like DF 7s?
hell naw
solid sun
How difficult or time consuming is it to go from someone who gets aotc each tier to someone who kills half the mythic raid bosses
round pendant
just join a guild
solid sun
Are the difficulties really that comparable?
strong forum
^^
The hardest part about myth raiding is finding 20 people
It's only the late bosses that pose real challenges mostly
Like my friend group, who only raids 3hrs on Saturday, got CE s1 and s2 and will also get it this season
lusty grotto
i dont think thats entirely true this season
strong forum
This season it's 6/8 tru
round pendant
Blizzard are obsessed with putting 90% of the difficulty in the last 2 bosses
it's really not fun tbh
frosty mango
How difficult or time consuming is it to go from someone who gets aotc each tier...
Very easily because the first 2 are easier than did
strong forum
First 6 are puggable
round pendant
aotc is just slop until final boss is hell
strong forum
Yeah
round pendant
and it leaks over into mythic but not as bad
frosty mango
Araz this tier I was pleasantly surprised with
lusty grotto
loomi is a wall, araz is another wall, free kill for fract, hunters another wall, saladbar another wall
but honestly loomi is very debateable
frosty mango
Araz will be free after turbo boost
lusty grotto
i dont think its a wall, but ive seen guilds struggling on it
frosty mango
Imo loom as well
frosty mango
Both fights you can skip a lot of mechs with just raw dps
robust quiver
We are progging mythic Nexus king and i'm solo soaking as pwar, does anyone have exp on this? I'm trying not to use immunities because i'd rather let DPS use them for survival and atm I'm doing wall+SR+ignore pain but idk, it feels iffy esp on the vanquish (i'm kinda dru for those)
lusty grotto
you need externals
any tank needs externals
dont use SR for it
you SR the frontal
solid sun
What usually creates walls in mythic? Is it usually like a dps or healing check being super tight? Or figuring out how to do a mechanic
frosty mango
We are progging mythic Nexus king and i'm solo soaking as pwar, does anyone have...
Look at lorggs and see what similar comps are using
lusty grotto
a wall is a difficulty increase
frosty mango
What usually creates walls in mythic? Is it usually like a dps or healing check ...
Personal responsibility mostly, followed by hard healing checks, followed by hard dps checks
lusty grotto
usually a boss is a wall when the pulls spike
frosty mango
If you can do dimensius you can 100% do plexus and soulbinder
robust quiver
Look at lorggs and see what similar comps are using
I've done that but i've seens more bdk doing the solo soaks then pwars (we are playing pwar+bdk)
lusty grotto
bdk can solo soak yes
thats the only tank that can do it
the others require externals
every single one of them and us
frosty mango
I've done that but i've seens more bdk doing the solo soaks then pwars (we are p...
You will need externals and lorggs will help you see what is being used by comp
Typically ironbark and bubble sac
robust quiver
Or TD but we don't have pres sadge
Aigh i guess it's pretty straitforward and safe woth externals, wanted to check if there was someone with solo-solo exp to give advice
round pendant
I keep wanting to get a guild but I just cba
lusty grotto
just remember to SR the frontal
cause deflect
all you need for it
dont use SR for the soak
robust quiver
just remember to SR the frontal
Is it a deflect?
round pendant
I'm not even bothering getting curve this season since my friends pugged it without me (thank god)
robust quiver
Omg that Is insane
round pendant
I'm just retiring from raid unless I get a guild
round pendant
pugging final bosses is fuckin miserable
strong forum
(who gets CE)