look at this shit u can see where 1 raid night ends and the other starts
#protection
hardy snow
mild river
Anyone tried prot on PTR? Did it change that much?
jagged pier
It feeels aweful
echo ermine
The current iteration feels like they are trying to push Prot to not use Devastator just to have some button to push. It truly feels bad to play as it sits.
jagged pier
The current iteration feels like they are trying to push Prot to not use Devasta...
Yee dont do that
dark barn
Slowarrior confirmed
jagged gust
vocal cave
dark barn
im gonna try colossus
No more rage for you
untold bane
is legendary skipper sim bait
cerulean tusk
I am generally not struggling with rage as Colo to be functional. Still, it feels worse if it gets slowed down. Especially the SS proc rate
(esp with Exe no longer granting stacks)
wooden widget
Can I run colossus on mythic ansurek
cerulean tusk
Sure
wooden widget
Will it hurt
cerulean tusk
You overgearing the content by a countrymile, so no reason why not
wooden widget
Yeah true
cerulean tusk
Aint a problem before you die, remember this
wooden widget
Yeah I am taking all three feasts I kinda wanna ball out with a colossus mog from the new trading post
dark barn
In the new slowarrior: Heavy repercussions to generate more rage and cast less times shield block (rage economy)?
torn gulch
I'm just looking at yoda on warrior on ptr and he was immortal kekw
cerulean tusk
Presume slowwarrior is just the same as my current full Crit/Mast build, you just use HR to keep it going at 100%
With more haste, it shouldnt be an issue at all at no point
steady bobcat
Correct me, but Yoda only fought a pack that deals mostly physical dmg.
A good test would be the first boss.
torn gulch
that's why i said kekw
i was complaining to my guildies about warrior next patch and then we watch yoda together and they're now shitting on me
steady bobcat
I mean, let's wait for Yoda to test it on something doing mostly magical dmg.
Considering how little rage he was generating I would not expect it going as good.
On top of that, he opted out of Brutal Vitality
small steeple
Correct me, but Yoda only fought a pack that deals mostly physical dmg.
yoda did a prot warrior test too? I guiess he hasn't uploaded that one to youtube yet then
small steeple
the other ones were too, they were just uploaded, but if that was only 30 min ago then it probably won't be a video until tommorow
torn gulch
what's strange to me is the fact that it looks like some of the rage gen nerfs were partially reverted
north atlas
what's strange to me is the fact that it looks like some of the rage gen nerfs w...
They will be
torn gulch
he was clearly generating more rage than yesterday
small steeple
well ptr is an older build normaly, so maybe they weren't even all applied?
north atlas
Call it copium, whatever they went too hard on rage nerfs. They'll be lightend up
urban bane
he was clearly generating more rage than yesterday
They briefly took PTR down today I wonder if they ghost patched some shit
nobody wants those changes to change dude. i went on the forums (bad i know) thinking "surely even the villains who post on the wow forums will agree it is horse shit" (bad idea i know). and some people were like "well hey... okay... we are flooded with rage"
Yeah on thane and it feels great ya dummies
ah well, hopefully they revert course or at least go about achieving their goal in a thoughtful way which isn't such horse shit.
mighty valley
I donât mind them shooting for the goals they state, these changes just donât do that
And would need to be more comprehensive tbh
north atlas
Whose ever posting on the forms Please say leave the talent.node edit the wayit till they have more time to do a comprehensive rework of our rage system
kind urchin
I noticed a little bit better rage gen than yesterday when I was playing today. Still dog shit but a little better.
wooden widget
Am i right in thinking pain sup should be used on feast and GS on liquify?
sharp olive
It's gone from a smorgus board of abilities to fine dining.
north atlas
Ptr guys have you tryed high crit col build yet?
tardy abyss
There was a feedback thread on the US forum and the guy said that IW was already a lot worse than aegis without the rage nerf in M+
Some either hate pressing SS or cant do maths
tardy abyss
Yeah
pallid quiver
As can be told by how many people are just looking to find ways to effectively bot the entire game
so they can just have the game play itself
cyan bronze
It's definitely the former
I wouldnât limit your hypothesis
Not only can people not hit buttons
Theyâre also really fucking bad at math
cyan bronze
You realize
They see -6 seconds
And see -whatever seconds
And pick the one with higher number
Right?
tardy abyss
pallid quiver
that's already higher numerical literacy than a non-zero amount of people who live in my neighborhood
because they understand the concept that one number is bigger than another
north atlas
Ive played every tank in mid lvl keys in s1, all tanks have buttons to spam
Warr not the only one
tardy abyss
Its more about the APM
But pwar is not an outlier or anything
Few specs are close or similar
north atlas
Keybind better
cyan bronze
what
north atlas
Brew is kinda high apm too
north atlas
Vdh aint bad really
cyan bronze
just for a random data point, top ara Kara prot log is 71.2 apm, brew is 63.7
north atlas
Spikes up, 4+souls bomb cleave to no cap rage and drop sigils
north atlas
Is the apm just ip spamming?
north atlas
Not that hard really, im old and can do it
north atlas
So your answer is?
cyan bronze
your response to pwar having higher apm was âkeybind betterâ and that âIâm old and i can do itâ
I donât really understand your point at all
tardy abyss
No way vdh is higher
cerulean tusk
VDH got more APM, as eating a soulshard is an action
Warrior is more CPM (casts)
:v
sweet summit
I think blizzard should remove haste as a stat because it may cause specs to play too fast
cerulean tusk
sweet summit
i'm cooking
ember token
Wouldnt be easier just to put a fix 'one action per 10 seconds only' per class? Make it slow for everyone and all of us can enjoy to slow paced peaceful wow
jagged pier
i'm cooking
u burnt
frigid valley
ngl, havent played alot of prot for many years but we sure feel sturdy compared to other tanks i play.
Nothing that sticks out with it just good in almost every scenario so far hehe
curious tho, when starting a pull blank, should i open with a shieldwall to get shit up to do a shield charge, or should i shieldcharge in and run a wall once im feeling the need for it?
sweet summit
curious tho, when starting a pull blank, should i open with a shieldwall to get ...
using it on pull is a nice habit to build, but be aware that there are pulls where you want it for a specific thing so you might want to hold it there. but those are things you'll learn as you go.
you want to use charge as the initial gap closer, since it has an 8(?) yard minimum range whereas shield charge has no minimum range so you can use it in melee
cerulean tusk
curious tho, when starting a pull blank, should i open with a shieldwall to get ...
Depends on the danger of the pull, but if you run double SB talent, you can feel free to use it early on to just soften things for your healer as you position
sweet summit
current effective cooldown on wall with single wall build is like 40 seconds or something so just send it
frigid valley
ait cool. first it felt i was overusing it but noticed it went down in cd quite alot so
sweet summit
overusing it is literally on cooldown regardless of if you're in combat/taking damage
cerulean tusk
Just send it early, you wont need when you need it till you die either way, and then you can plan for it
dapper vapor
Anyone got any Tank DPS data from PTR yet
Trying to work out how badly I need to look at the emergency Paladin
sweet summit
maybe wait for raid test tomorrow i think
north atlas
Did they get a new nerfs?
tardy abyss
hm?
north atlas
Ppal
tardy abyss
No, they didnt get anything
strong forum
pwar only tank with nerfs iirc
tardy abyss
ye
north atlas
Then why would they not be top?
tardy abyss
I said that they prob still top
jagged pier
pwar only tank with nerfs iirc
but bliz said it wasnt a nerfs they buffed our ip to mitigate the loss of rage so now we can make decisions
strong forum
uhuh
tardy abyss
Decisions what tank to play next season
cerulean tusk
I mean, they really need to increase the ragecost of shieldblock to give us a "choice", it must be so rage innefficent of a CD that IP looks like a decent click comparably
next yacht
Dont worry guys huge prot warr buffs incoming,i believe in blizzard they know what they are doing
cerulean tusk
Make SB 110 rage, decrease duration to 3 sec. Make IP 110 rage, increase shield by another 20%
New Warrior will be great
jagged pier
like too me honestly this feels worse than IP on the gcd
cerulean tusk
cerulean tusk
Gotta swap to 2h to use IP, then back to sword and board after
I like it
Gotta make it as clunky feeling as possible
or we might have FUN
blizz dislike fun
cerulean tusk
We need more GCDs
IP should require a 2 GCD setup and be on GCD
SB should require Shieldslam into Thunderclap into Revenge, before it can be used
Also, add slam in there, just to make sure we feel good about the "choices" of buttons. So it is 3 of 4 options
Blizzard kind of fun
jagged pier
they could just fix it by giving us this talent back
tardy abyss
Colossus would legit do as much damage as a dps no
cerulean tusk
If they included that, they first would have to balance it, by reducing Revenge base damage by 50%
jagged pier
it already does
strong forum
already does
tardy abyss
As much as bad dps maybe
strong forum
xd
tardy abyss
But I fancy that talent ngl
north atlas
idk man im bad at col and i was doing 3m on 2 pack pulls
north atlas
But I fancy that talent ngl
agreed
cerulean tusk
Col revenge goes burrrr
Col with crit/mast build is about 1.2-1.5mill overalls quite conistently, so perfect for PuG ompfh
cerulean tusk
Your crit smoll
fast oracle
Is col prot worse than thane now or are they equally shit?
jagged pier
Your crit smoll
unfrotunatly yes
cerulean tusk
On PTR? They both still will be viable for most content - and as such is fine
tardy abyss
Cant wait for prot to be the least played tank in high keys
fast oracle
Cool great good job blizzard
cerulean tusk
It sucks, but it can still do the content blizz defines as viable
So +10 mythics and the raid
fast oracle
Someone at blizzard really hates warriors
tardy abyss
Ele is suffering because of enh too
jagged pier
i care more about game play and being funneled into 1 hero spec is not fun. having a giga slow spec is not fun
tardy abyss
New pwave was made with only enh in mind
jagged pier
if it couldnt do a +2 i wouldnt care if it played well i would make do
but if this is the strongest tank and play like this shit i would still be unhappy
if u get me
glacial totem
How do I do a macro for Ravager so it casts on the target, so I dont have to aim?
cerulean tusk
I play execute based specs, for prot and Fury - ya can always make due
strong forum
How do I do a macro for Ravager so it casts on the target, so I dont have to aim...
@cursor
cerulean tusk
step 1
jagged pier
u can @player if u dont want to aim at all
might miss some ticks tho
and cant pull packs with it then too
cerulean tusk
@player is fair, if you dont pre-throw it into packs
Also, why play ravager, when you can not
:)
:))
jagged pier
it makes me sad when ppl dont do that
jagged pier
both not playing rav and not pull packs with rav
cerulean tusk
If I see ravager go down into the floor one more time this expansion, I will add a kernel of salt to my pile
tardy abyss
Have you tried throwing it properly
cerulean tusk
Hoy
tardy abyss
I dont think Ive seen that happen a single time
cerulean tusk
Not my fault it decides to attack helya
jagged pier
thats good memes
tropic pond
does anyone know how to makes addon not error, i keep getting lua error, just wanna turn on details! on
cerulean tusk
Step one: Uninstall
remote anchor
If I see ravager go down into the floor one more time this expansion, I will add...
my issue is throwing it into trees or roofs
strong forum
might just not work on PTR for now
tardy abyss
Theres a command you can disable lua errors with, gotta google it
cerulean tusk
Bugsack just absorbs them, no? Havent seen a popup beyond the red bag icon in ages
tardy abyss
Details defo works on PTR, Azor used it in his MM video
tropic pond
i've seen like yoda can turn on details, but mine keep getting error
i dunno where to start fixing it lol
cerulean tusk
Just making sure, you using the alpha build version, that is usually set to work for the PTR
tropic pond
ah ok, i will look into it
glacial totem
#showtooltip Ravager
/cast [@cursor,help,nodead][] Ravager
This does not work
What could be wrong?
@strong forum
cerulean tusk
Just do a pure @cursor [@cursor] Ravager
yours is set to only cast on friendly, that aint dead
glacial totem
Thx guys!
uncut juniper
currently all 3 warrior specs are off worse
is there anyone working on constructive feedback to blizzard on the forums or somewhere? I mean we could at least TRY to show them our opinion about the changes.
cerulean tusk
Offical forums, PTR and/or warrior; join one of the threads
They likely skim them, or rather, AI gives them a breakdown of what ppl being loud about.
Will it change anything? Probably not. Is it the best you can do, other than being a giga Twitter personality? Not really
uncut juniper
i am not happy with that :D
strong forum
Report shit with the F6 button on PTR
cerulean tusk
Guess you can scream into the void in here, maybe a dev looks and sips his coffee
cerulean tusk
Basically, try to flood all channels of communication you can
uncut juniper
Guess you can scream into the void in here, maybe a dev looks and sips his coffe...
hey mr. dev i hope you enjoy your coffee. and now go tell them we're not happy about the changes. :x
uncut juniper
Report shit with the F6 button on PTR
will do
tropic star
my issue is throwing it into trees or roofs
gotta love ravagering a chandelier
onyx vessel
Using ravager 
tardy abyss
Not using ravager
cerulean tusk
Not using a 2hander
onyx vessel
I use BSV
jagged pier
onyx vessel
tardy abyss
Using BSV in 2025
cerulean tusk
New year, new meta
onyx vessel
tardy abyss
#BSVShaming
onyx vessel
I need it cuz bad
tardy abyss
You would be less bad if you used Ravager
onyx vessel
tardy abyss
Unlucky
Speaking of BSV
Why dont they make BSV actually useful with 11.1
-10% damage taken + cheat death sounds good to me
heavy sparrow
when does Speed fall off?
brittle owl
when you hit a wall
jagged pier
replace BSV with
brittle owl
replace BSV with
sweet summit
I think we should get 3 extra points to spend on our spec tree
jagged pier
and instead of it be that vengance just give us mop vengance
then never press IP and just do more damage
devout basalt
what was different in mop?
strong forum
Back when you were entirely self sufficient and with enough skill you would take 0 dmg and top dmg meter
Instead of having threat multiplier you would just do insane damage
devout basalt
jagged pier
u want to do most damage? be a tank
was a good time
also if u want to do most healing and most damage u played a prot pala
remote anchor
good times 
bold mirage
Solo tanking Garrosh for the parses...those were the days
smoky anvil
Solo tank Garrosh, solo healed by a disc priest. Ez katka.
tribal wharf
i feel like, whatever dps a tank can do, a dps should be able to double it without too much effort and then triple for trying
or like, +95% +180% same things
remote anchor
i dont think so
tribal wharf
they are DAMAGE dealers right
the entire purpose is to live long enough to deal enough dmg thing dies
tardy abyss
The more damage dps do, the less the damage of a tank matters
And imo tank dps is a really good metric to tell if someone is good
tribal wharf
yes, thats a bit the point
remote anchor
like if you take your point to the extreme should tanks do 0 damage? because they are not damage dealers?
kind urchin
I like to see tanks at around 70% of what a dps can do.
remote anchor
yea
tardy abyss
yes, thats a bit the point
So what are tanks supposed to do at all then?
It already is piss boring in raid
No need to make it as boring in M+
remote anchor
most people would say tanks were best in mop when they actually did more damage than dps
kind urchin
It's not just about group content. Tanks and healers have to be able to do solo content too. The damage output has to be reasonable to be able to do that content in a given time frame.
tardy abyss
Inb4 "make tanks squishier to they care about surviving"
tribal wharf
dps, for as long as i was rogue, and mage, both of those are super fragile, rogue more sturdy, both good, its just kinda you can go in world buff as it were into a 14 key and then you get hit by void zones warlock put down and healer didnt get to you intime and you also didnt kick so you could deal dmg and your bad rogu int key
dont invite him
tribal wharf
eh, mage is okay but double blink and time reverse thingy attached to it
too complicated for me
like, i could totally do that spec, but its beyond me
tardy abyss
And kicking also doesnt lose you dps in most scenarios anyway
Unless you stop casting 2 seconds before you have to kick
kind urchin
Getting hit by void zones means you're taking avoidable damage. You shouldn't expect to be able to live through that.
tribal wharf
warlock put it on me, he had to run out of fire
grim pilot
Kicking loses u so little dps
As a caster
Anyone complaining about it
That doesnt do actual wf keys pushing limits
Is a fucking idiot
And even there
Id say its the same
But its somewhat justified ig
tribal wharf
mage is okay actually, i had mechagnome mage, many mirror image
tardy abyss
wdym with okay tho
tardy abyss
If you meant performance that would be 
tribal wharf
mage is just, i blast you with fire ice or arcane
heavy temple
What is the most up to date guide? (not throwing shade at any guide creator, but at my current class, some resources for example just havent been updated)
tardy abyss
wowhead and icy veins are both up-to-date
heavy temple
thanks
jagged pier
wowhead and icyveins and both correct
heavy temple
tyvm
tribal wharf
hunters lust without a pet active 11.1
source i didnt make it up, twitter did (if it is indeed hoax)
tardy abyss
Its MM only
tardy abyss
I mean, 90% of players who dislike SV prob have never tried it
In terms of UX its soo much better than the other two specs
tribal wharf
yes, but then also i could just ret or warrior 2 specs of 2hs, 2 specs for dk dps 1 of them uses 2h
technical druid melee forms, monk
tardy abyss
??
What is this comparison
Instead of ret or warrior you could also play SV
Whats your point
tribal wharf
i would rather play any of those than sv when i have a bow or gun
and can just max range instead
tardy abyss
Any ranged spec that goes max range is bad
Unless you do it so your healer hates you
chrome falcon
cyan bronze
about the discussion earlier
when tank dps matters its alot more fun for tank players
and you get more tank players
its good for m+
urban portal
If tanks do too much dps then you start replacing dps so itâs a fine balance
jagged pier
well no because thats the thing vengance works for 1 tank your other tank didnt get big stacks so in like a dungeon only 1 tank would work
pallid quiver
You'd need to make it not work on avoidable damage, as well, or else degen behaviors happen
but most importantly is tanks doing less than dps or else dps players lose their shit
dense cradle
dps skill issue
pallid quiver
It can also encourage finding ways to solo tank raid fights, as well, if it gets tied to survival again, which blizz no likey
devout basalt
if strategist nerf stays would we make the switch to def aegis?
tardy abyss
if strategist nerf stays would we make the switch to def aegis?
Why would we?
Pretty sure IW is still better with the nerf
Dont think the cd of wall is more than 1m30 with the nerfs
devout basalt
fewer slams on top of IW losing its rage gen
devout basalt
just watching smoe of yodas runs from earlier this season he runs double wall al the time
got me thinking more ppl gonna swap
tardy abyss
yeah but not because its good
Thats like saying BSV is good because for whatever reason all the top warriors run it
I have yet to see an explanation on why aegis is even remotely as good as IW
With or without nerfs
ornate anvil
Hi all, new to tanking and protection warrior. I am only 600 ilvl and do not have my set bonus yet. Just looking for some tips and advice. One thing I have noticed is that at times i struggle to gain the initial aggro on a pull.. i follow the outlined rotation in the guides but if I do not have thunderclap or challenging shout up i seem to have a few who run away from me and aggro onto others.
Wanted to ask if this is normal starting off or if I could possible be doing somthing different?
tardy abyss
Hi all, new to tanking and protection warrior. I am only 600 ilvl and do not hav...
Its fine to use Thunderblast as your first gcd after charge + avatar
Thats usually enough to hold aggro
ornate anvil
Its fine to use Thunderblast as your first gcd after charge + avatar
What would you advice for second pull when say avatar is not up and Thunderbolt takes too long to come off CD to spam a second hit?
tardy abyss
Still have aoe taunt if shit really goes down the drain
But you dont need much to build and hold aggro
Just any aoe is fine usually
remote anchor
if you have aggro issues rn its probably also becaause you are lower ilvl than your dps
shut summit
Thats like saying BSV is good because for whatever reason all the top warriors ...
you run BSV because a tank death can basically kill a run, the talent isn't perfect or work all the time, but expecting perfect play on every pack in every dungeon is just unrealistic. everyone makes mistakes so it's nice to not have one mistake end a run.
Aegis and imp wall are pretty comparable imo, I've tried both and tend to lean towards aegis because doing bigger pulls when DPS CDs are up just make it comfier, maybe a mental thing but the difference in these 2 talents is not that massive
i don't care what other warriors do tbh, I haven't onced looked at what others are running in keys and I think it's weird with the fixation on flaming top io warriors for "not knowing what they are doing"
ornate anvil
I see, might just be my ivl or my rotation.. Thanks for your advice. ill have a look at my initial rotations
tardy abyss
you run BSV because a tank death can basically kill a run, the talent isn't perf...
BSV does absolutely nothing in 90% of the time
tardy abyss
And being able to use wall every single pack vs having a 2m30 cd or whatever per stack is way too good
grim pilot
Tank dying is almost certainly end of a key
Just like with cheat death in df from dawn
If it didnt proc for 3 keys but then it procced once its value skyrocketed
I dont think that advocating against such a talent is that good, if someone is 100% confident he doesnt need it he shouldnât run it
tardy abyss
But how do you make sure its up when you REALLY need it
Because you have 0 control over it
As the threshhold is way too high
shut summit
it's not about planning on it, it's about covering mistakes like I said
grim pilot
If you drop that low
You likely wouldve died
Its not a great talent
But its closest to a cheat death prot warrior has
Just like single wall vs double wall
Back in df double wall was trash
In tww they reworked it so its more of a preference
I havent felt the need for double wall so im running single and I dont have any survi issues in keys but cheat death did save me a couple of times
Especially if i misplayed on pulls like first pull of NW
- sometimes you can treat it as a def cd, youâre basically immortal for 8 seconds afterwards
tardy abyss
NW is the only exception for double wall / bsv
Also, 30% is still not close to death in most cases, even as pwar
shut summit
NW is the only exception for double wall / bsv
according to who
tardy abyss
Lots of experienced pwars here?
shut summit
i must not be experienced in pwar i guess
tardy abyss
Didnt say that tho
grim pilot
I brought up nw as an example
But like i said in tww double wall became objectively viable
tardy abyss
But its not like that hasnt been discussed in this channel a billion times anyway
grim pilot
Before that i thought its troll
Im sorry but most of the people discussing havent seen past 10
shut summit
parroting regurgitated info from people not doing the keys is silly
brittle owl
i must not be experienced in pwar i guess
who even are you like really
grim pilot
âI know some people that are doing 13sâ type people
onyx vessel
grim pilot
I can assure you a lot of stuff hurts on higher keys not just first pull in nw 
tardy abyss
why would you even do keys high that's a guaranteed brick
Is that an actual quote
cyan bronze
according to who
not conducive but he thinks itâs ok ish there
dusky canopy
knotty pewter
BSV does absolutely nothing in 90% of the time
are you the same guy that didnt realize it had an 80% dr attached to it for 8s after it procced and only thought its value came from the heal?
grim pilot
not conducive but he thinks itâs ok ish there
@strong forum elaborate
I dont agree with this take
Im talking about title keys or higher
Obv
knotty pewter
bsv saves keys for me probably 3 times a night
tardy abyss
are you the same guy that didnt realize it had an 80% dr attached to it for 8s a...
Im aware of the dr lol
knotty pewter
a lot of very vocal bsv opponents were not when the subject came up a month ago
long kayak
i bait bsv to do bigger pulls and have more shields ready
grim pilot
Especially in current season
Where there is very high damage intake
U can randomly drop to low hp in db
tardy abyss
If BSV procs in a key lower than 15/16 then you were legit brain afk
grim pilot
If you dont have spell block on
knotty pewter
If BSV procs in a key lower than 15/16 then you were legit brain afk
all the arguments against it that ive seen didnt specify key level being a factor.
your criticisms of it are directed at people copying top warriors, who are doing 15s and 16s
strong forum
<@192743144276623360> elaborate
moreso meant the whole "not needing bsv"
not the NW specific thingy
maybe go first pull with double wall + bsv then talent out of it after the pull before boss
type deal
or just after boss
grim pilot
I mean in general after 15âs if u fuck up u can die
plain ice
If BSV procs in a key lower than 15/16 then you were legit brain afk
grim pilot
And bsv can cover u there
strong forum
its a bitch an a half to pick up
grim pilot
True
drowsy narwhal
i feel like, whatever dps a tank can do, a dps should be able to double it witho...
according to Zorthas: https://youtu.be/DBGh5gPrZOY?feature=shared&t=1304 who is like the nr.1 dps player, dps is an easy role to play, at least compared to healer and tank is probably the highest in difficulty. So I would argue, that the roles with highest skill ceiling should have a higher payoff than dps. So, if I am playing a harder role, especially an unthankful role, what is my payoff as a tank or healer? i am not saying tanks should be invincible, but if they do their job, they should be getting a dmg multiplier or sth, and should be able to do 90-100% of dmg what a dps can do. Why should the "easiest" role in the game also get the cherry pie?
grim pilot
U cant say its shit for high keys
tardy abyss
I mean in general after 15âs if u fuck up u can die
But unless you do calls or whatever you shouldnt make that mistake to begin with
Which is why Kira ran it for example
jagged pier
And bsv can cover u there
theres also the question of what happens if u fuck up twice within the cd
grim pilot
But unless you do calls or whatever you shouldnt make that mistake to begin with
U cannot absolutely ever expect perfect play
grim pilot
theres also the question of what happens if u fuck up twice within the cd
Thats why i call it a fuckup
It should proc like twice or 3 times in a key
On avg
And its fine
Not perma proccing on cd
That means theres something wrong with your playstyle
knotty pewter
But unless you do calls or whatever you shouldnt make that mistake to begin with
so now its only if you are the shot caller as well that you should run it? because kira does? a guy who plays the game 12 hours a day
jagged pier
but my question is on those logs / runs are u proccing it to stop death
or did u just go low
theres so many factors too it, if u just dropped low 3 times over the key then rav was by far the better choice for instance
grim pilot
Yes true
But if u wouldve died 1 time out of those 3
Then its value is infinitely higher than that of a ravager
It is a bit hard to tell sometimes due to the nature of it
And im not a big fan of the talent either but i would play it if i actively pushed on prot warrior
Tldr play what you feel is good for you, if you dont need bsv then thats good, but shitting on that talent mindlessly is just stupid
jagged pier
right of course but 99% of ppl that aruge for it literally are arguing if it procs it saved u which isnt always the case its hard to tell. im not gunna say dont run it, run it if u like it. but like the extra rage from rav could have saved u on the 1 death out of 3 for instance or a stop in a better place too many factors
grim pilot
Especially since it goes without saying most people shitting on it havent experienced content even remotely as high as people playing it from the talents were copied
jagged pier
Tldr play what you feel is good for you, if you dont need bsv then thats good, b...
my anger goes towards the ppl that say they need it for a 10 because x streamer runs it
then they dont listen
or ever proc bsv
and its like brah
u dont understand the class
grim pilot
I agree
knotty pewter
right of course but 99% of ppl that aruge for it literally are arguing if it pro...
hindsight is always 20/20. theres always something that could have been done differently/better. its just about being human and understanding shit happens
jagged gust
While I agree that bsv has its uses, the spec feels wrong not playing ravager
strong forum
i felt more unsafe playing BSV than playing without it
cuz when BSV is on CD you start worrying
jagged pier
less rage makes me 
strong forum
so i played worse cuz BSV existed
jagged gust
It feels like prot needs everything to work properly, losing ravager breaks something in the flow of the rotation for me
grim pilot
i felt more unsafe playing BSV than playing without it
True but youâre not pushing either (im not saying u couldnt đ just saying u cba with pushing) so u dont feel the need for it in the keys youâre doing atm
strong forum
that was in DF
was 16 AA i think in s4
procced it intentionally on crawth and on the miniboss
to see if it would proc
and ive never felt more unsafe in my life
after i procced it intentionally
strong forum
grim pilot
That can/does save time
strong forum
your pull decisions dont change based on talents
strong forum
your routes are not made with cheat in mind
strong forum
your routes are made based on what your group can and cant pull
grim pilot
Yes
grim pilot
Say in grim batol first area
^
strong forum
and GB first area i would never chain if an overseer is still alive
even with cheat
knotty pewter
you can on the fly change how you pull things based on defensive capability and dps cds
thats a pretty normal thing to do
strong forum
dps wont have CDs after first pull
grim pilot
Until you get very very high you change some small stuff in the spot
knotty pewter
especially as key levels progress and cds line up different
strong forum
so youre not gaining any time
grim pilot
dps wont have CDs after first pull
Assuming you play with 2min classes
maiden forge
depends on the dps specs tbh
grim pilot
You shouldnt send more than 1 set of cds
Before drakes
If you do its int
You never have cds
strong forum
you send 2 sets of CDs before drakes cuz during drakes they recover
strong forum
youd hold a CD for 1min+?
pallid quiver
depends on the dps specs tbh
That would go back to this, though:
#protection message
grim pilot
Yep
Not just me either
Ive been checking logs to confirm
Because i used to send earlier in the season
Youre supposed to hold because your next pull is dangerous
And u need to nuke it down
knotty pewter
you can be doing the pull after drakes at 3:00
grim pilot
4 casters + drake + overseer
strong forum
hm
grim pilot
Either way just wanted to tag u so u can elaborate on that bsv not needed, i agree its not needed in lower keys but higher when 1 mistake can fuck you up its good to have a safety net instead of wiping and depleting a key in general
I dont like what we trade for it as well
shut summit
pipedream is having it not in such a dog shit spot in the tree
pallid quiver
I still don't like BSV personally since it's not a true cheat, even for that reason. Since it can proc when you don't want it to, making it awkward.
it should just be a true cheat tbh
pallid quiver
pipedream is having it not in such a dog shit spot in the tree
This, this too
But I'll always say you play whatever makes you coear content, who cares if it's not optimal. I'll recommend people towards what seems to be optimal for their use case, but
you can clear content with some real scuffed spec play and talents as long as you are playing the content well
strong forum
pipedream is having it not in such a dog shit spot in the tree
would be nice to not the be only spec in the game that still has its DF beta talent tree
shut summit
trust me i have relayed that info
pallid quiver
I feel like there's gotta be a dps spec somewhere that's still similar
tardy abyss
pipedream is having it not in such a dog shit spot in the tree
A full rework of our capstones would be great tbh
pallid quiver
But that's probably just cope on my end
strong forum
Spriest was the spec with the longest time without a spec tree rework
shut summit
A full rework of our capstones would be great tbh
also have given this exact feedback
jagged pier
Getting our rage gen back on talents i would take tbh
strong forum
well, aside from us
shut summit
Getting our rage gen back on talents i would take tbh
extremely unlikely
pallid quiver
Agree unfort
jagged pier
Well they need to change something because ptr is not fun
pallid quiver
I'm pretty sure they're confident in the rage changes
strong forum
i would want some good and fun things and not "lose this borderline mandatory talent to get a fake cheat"
pallid quiver
For whatever reason; I don't personally believe the one they put out
shut summit
i can guarantee that more changes are inbound
strong forum
our tree has too many too powerful nodes
when others have 3-5 points they can move around
jagged pier
i can guarantee that more changes are inbound
strong forum
we already cry out in pain for 1 fucking point
jagged pier
A scuffed sense solution coming to us soon
shut summit
i can't guarantee they'll be good enough but it'll be something
grim pilot
i would want some good and fun things and not "lose this borderline mandatory ta...
Id be fine if it was a strong cheat
strong forum
cuz its as much as 5-7% fucking damage
pallid quiver
sense casually leaking confidential blizz insider info
strong forum
for 1 point
grim pilot
Like vdhs LR
grim pilot
And not trading ravager for shitty cheat
strong forum
yeah
grim pilot
And its infinitely stronger
cyan bronze
than we lose to take our shitty cheat
pallid quiver
i would want a REAL cheat
This is, again, like probably my biggest issue with BSV
pallid quiver
I know why it's not a true cheat; it's not flavorful for the class
strong forum
but thats a hot take
pallid quiver
i would ALL cheats removed
i think that boat's sailed at this point
I would prefer them all gone, too,
strong forum
entirely remove all cheats, from all classes, aswell as immunities
that would be my dream scenario
shut summit
all tanks should have cheat as their first point in the tree
pallid quiver
But if they're gonna exist, they better all work the same
cyan bronze
all tanks should have cheat as their first point in the tree
this is the wrong way
it should be a damage loss to take
or something loss
shut summit
disagree
grim pilot
Or at the very least there should be a good trinket available every single season
Like from dawn
strong forum
sir
tardy abyss
agree with Sense, either all or nobody
grim pilot
Losing cheat means losing safety net
strong forum
im afraid
pallid quiver
God, I'm not sure how I feel about that at all
strong forum
your takes are shit
grim pilot
your takes are shit
Nah
cyan bronze
cheats are healthy for the game
grim pilot
Losing cheat means losing safety net
And tanks in pugs can be quite questionable
shut summit
yep exactly
cyan bronze
making it more punishing and less forgiving isnt great
but idk if giving every tank a cheat for free is the solution
strong forum
cheats are a crutch in game design in my mind, no other company uses them as frequently
jagged pier
I mean also not change how the fun tank plays , would be a good solution
shut summit
i hate cheat trinkets cuz of the tradeoff, I hate our current "cheat" but will use it, wish it was more universal for all specs
strong forum
people think cheats are good because well, we've had them in wow for decades
pallid quiver
cheats are a crutch in game design in my mind, no other company uses them as fre...
what are your thoughts on FF14 forcibly sticking an immunity onto every tank, then?
strong forum
so theyre normalized, if they never existed nobody would ask for them
thats my headcanon
cyan bronze
i disagree
jagged pier
I feel like if all tank had a cheat they would make mechanics to eat them, i dont like that
cyan bronze
i do agree with that
and i dont mind that
if you can live with an external also
but ya
shut summit
I feel like if all tank had a cheat they would make mechanics to eat them, i don...
that's the caveat, like in xiv with tank mechs just always being invulned
strong forum
what are your thoughts on FF14 forcibly sticking an immunity onto every tank, th...
arent their fights literally designed around them
jagged pier
Yer i dont like that but thats a me thing
pallid quiver
I feel like if all tank had a cheat they would make mechanics to eat them, i don...
I definitely feel this would be the issue, since it's too likely to be semi-degen for design
strong forum
that you HAVE to pop your immunity to deal with X mechanic
pallid quiver
arent their fights literally designed around them
Yes
jagged pier
Yep
strong forum
yeah so, its not a safety mechanic
pallid quiver
It's part of tank cd planning is where to put your immunities
And that's why they have to give every tank an immunity
jagged pier
And that defeats the point of a cheat im the first place
cyan bronze
i mean
pallid quiver
I don't personally think cheats are a good design for games that are generally as scripted as WoW type MMOs, personally, because they're so hard to manage
cyan bronze
theres also the question of how punishing tanking should be
shut summit
I mean also not change how the fun tank plays , would be a good solution
fwiw I don't disagree that apm should go down a tad for pwar, it's extremely daunting and punishing, my only problem is that it will go too far in one direction and stay that way for months
jagged pier
Its gone that far in my eyes
strong forum
only thane has that APM issue
jagged pier
And yer weve lost choice
shut summit
ye colossus gettin old yellered
pallid quiver
I really think Colossus should have been the APM answer
strong forum
blizz literally outing themselves that their nerf is not well thought through
pallid quiver
Get Thane's damage up or Colo damage down, Colo's survival up, and bam, you have a slow option and a fast option
jagged pier
I still dont get how we the only tank to get nerfed 
shut summit
1st Ghuun kill in BFA
Shield block uptime: 35.86%
Ignore pain uptime: 28.61%
Rage gained (8:55 pull): 3165
Casts per minute: 53
1st Denathrius kill in SL
Shield block uptime: 47.21%
Ignore pain uptime: 51.75%
Rage gained (9:06 of pull): 4156
Casts per minute: 47
1st Raszageth kill in DF
Shield block uptime: 88.68%
Ignore pain uptime: 79.00%
Rage gained (9:06 of pull): 5335
Casts per minute: 62
1st Ansurek kill in TWW
Shield block uptime: 98.96%
Ignore pain uptime: 83.24%
Rage gained (9:06 pull): 6595
Casts per minute: 75
part of the feedback I gave, you can see the clear power spikes and if we are this high now it's gonna be ungodly by last tier
so numbers wise it does make sense but colossus is gonna need jesus
strong forum
yeah its also a patch, much like DF s1
where you already reach way north of 30% haste
which is generally unprecedented
shut summit
yup
strong forum
to have this many stats already
the power gain of the 2 past expacs is extremely frontloaded
in fucking BFA you were good with 20% haste s1
jagged pier
Yer but i feel like a lot of that is giving us free SB uptime
jagged pier
And they could just go back to managing it correctly which is what i liked the most
strong forum
ignoring the glaring AM uptime issues
shut summit
I also agree that I don't like how mindless block uptime is, but in the current landscape I don't want it changed without pretty drastic nerfs to mobs
strong forum
yeah its a pandoras box
if you want tanks to have 100% uptime on AM whats the point of having AM
if you dont want tanks to have 100% uptime on AM, well make it so you dont get globaled if you dont
if 100% uptime IS achievable
it will be mandatory to gear for
shut summit
ye, so I definitely agree with the idea of the changes, not exactly behind what we currently have gotten
will need to see what's incoming and pray it's enough
jagged pier
Need a tree rework tbh
shut summit
agree
jagged pier
But in the mean time a bit of rage gen would be nice as they gutted it comoletely
strong forum
we will never get 9.2+ pwar back
but atleast make it more interesting
and not as flat as it is now
cuz thane is just flat ass gameplay
colossus is fun
so let me keep my colossus and blast
jagged pier
Like with how the changes are right now i dont think this helps the players that couldnt keep up with the pace of the spec to begin with
They are just gunna die to literally having no rage at all
strong forum
atleast IP is getting a buff
honestly
they could just make IP a variance of rage expendature again
so you dont spam as much
and have more meaningful decision making
or ykno
jagged pier
Wellthats what they are going for but its not worked
strong forum
a meaningful offensive rage spender
jagged pier
U have one just fir the chance it resets SS
strong forum
Wellthats what they are going for but its not worked
thats the goal, but their solution is the wrong one
strong forum
nerfing rage gen is not the solution to having interesting rotational decision making
devastator was always 20%
jagged pier
I think thats all of our point
jagged pier
Yer so revenge is now even worse to press
strong forum
yeah our ST rotation will mostly suffer
jagged pier
But they want u to choose between the 2?
jagged pier
Like thats makes no sense bliz
strong forum
but ST is the pain point
jagged pier
I only tested ST on PTR wanted to die
shut summit
I communicated that too, the choice is just shifting to dropping revenge/execute, which isn't exactly great
strong forum
it will create rotational downtime
which is exactly what people ALREADY have
cuz they miss-spend rage
this change will only emphasise rotational mistakes
shut summit
talents like brace for impact and punish also catch strays because of fewer shield slams
jagged pier
I love 1-2 seconds of not playing the game when for the last 2 expansions ive never stoped pressing buttons
strong forum
yeah like napkinning it its a 15-20% dmg nerf
strong forum
not even accounting the defensive nerf
which wont at all be covered by 30% more IP
we lose SW uses (imp nerf and will default to aegis everywhere cuz imp is dead now)
cuz 2min CD Sw baseline with aegis is too good to pass up
imp wall LITERALLY cant compete anymore
shut summit
also lose block uptime with HR
it's a lot of tackon effects (I communicated all of them I believe) so just gotta wait and see
strong forum
lose avatar uses
lose OUTBURST USES BTW
lose indom healing
jagged pier
Yer its sad times the changes if they come aint fixing all this
strong forum
like this outburst avatar thing alone
jagged pier
I see a big fat aura buff in our future
strong forum
is a feedback loop
cuz well less rage from outburst means less outbursts
which in turn AGAIN
means less outbursts
jagged pier
Which means less everything
strong forum
its such a heavy handed nerf to such a spec enabling talent
jagged pier
Hey if indom dead at least we can choose something else
strong forum
yeah its a gigantic rat tail
easily the biggest nerf pwar will have been received since bfa
jagged pier
Feel like its bigger
strong forum
nah bfa -> SL
they cuz down TC by 200%
loss of bom
nerf of UF
from 100% to 50% to 20% dmg iirc?
- less CDR
jagged pier
Meh didnt really play proc cause i didnt like clap spam
strong forum
- target capping
jagged pier
Its subjective but does to me
shut summit
early bfa and early sl were both so miserable
deft hinge
+block ranged. not that it matters in tww tho
strong forum
ye 8.0 was
shut summit
before the charge lego got changed
jagged pier
early bfa and early sl were both so miserable
Not disagreeing just feel like they at least felt better to olay at the time to me than this
shut summit
ye I haven't bothered to test yet
strong forum
1st Ghuun kill in BFA
Shield block uptime: 35.86%
Ignore pain uptime: 28.61%
Rag...
i hope you relayed tho that bolster didnt give SB
just reminded myself
jagged pier
then necro double leggo saved pwar x1000
Yer but high apm so they aint ever letting that happen again
strong forum
Yer but high apm so they aint ever letting that happen again
i know, pwar will never be as fun again
shut summit
ya maybe why it's lower, cba checking again
strong forum
too hard for wow gamers
shut summit
point is still mostly the same
strong forum
yeah obv
just remembered this small tidbit
but yeah what jakey proposed was pretty good tho
give us legion vengeance talent
jagged pier
I had a good idea 
strong forum
the revenge-ip weave one
tardy abyss
Post that in the forums
jagged pier
Yer generally thought that fixes this whole mess
strong forum
would unironically be awesome
jagged pier
In like 1 go
tardy abyss
Maybe they will actually think about it
strong forum
shut summit
should just be a colossus hero talent
strong forum
yeah
it would buff colossus
infinite amounts
reduce the revenge dmg
but keep the IP part
and BOOM
fixed the whole hero tree
jagged pier
Makes play style a tad dull tho
strong forum
no it changes nothing about playstyle
cuz IP is off gcd now
so you just ACTUALLY get to use IP in aoe frequently
- huge BrV value
jagged pier
Yer i just ment i member back in legion i was like in my head ip rev ip rev ip rev
strong forum
- incoming IP buff + the already natty 20% IP buff colossus has
strong forum
Yer i just ment i member back in legion i was like in my head ip rev ip rev ip r...
yeah but IP was 10-60 rage cost
and not 35
and our rage gen was also based on dmg taken
jagged pier
True
strong forum
i prefer my block
IP being main mit is why pwar was "shit"
cuz absorbs can only do so much
jagged pier
Nah u keep that too
strong forum
doesnt really affect anything in the long run
besides tmog
we'd just be balanced around that fact, unlike fury
jagged pier
Tmog should be fully unresticted in my eyes
strong forum
actually insane how vengeance would instantly fix the surv "issues" colossus has
jagged pier
If i want to tmog cloth gear on my warrior and plate on my clothy why not changes nothing for the game
strong forum
how would that work for arms tho
jagged pier
actually insane how vengeance would instantly fix the surv "issues" colossus has
Well get on the forums
strong forum
using IP buffing ms/cleave?
wicked pollen
holy
tardy abyss
Need to hard buff the amount for arms tho
jagged pier
It will helo with less rgae for thane too even tho u oress revenge less
strong forum
fury chuds nerfed IP for arms tho
jagged pier
My help in St more tho
tardy abyss
strong forum
fucking such a disgusting nerf
to remove IP rage expendature to count towards AM, ToM and Tactician
it was literally focused rage 2.0
but instead it gave a surv increase instead of buffing the next MS
tardy abyss
But that would also help arms a lot in terms of survivability anyway
Which it kinda needs rn
strong forum
arms is tanky af
but nobody wants to play IP
cuz its a dmg loss
in any real scenario you play IP
tardy abyss
IP is also just terrible
strong forum
cuz it makes your real fucking tanky vs 1shots
but fury gets more stamina for free + 10% DR for free + insane hps for free
and somehow thats okay
tardy abyss
dunno for IP to actually help vs oneshots you need to be able to stack it properly
Which is not always given
But yeah, I was comparing it to fury
strong forum
even 1 IP is like a 15% ehp increase for arms
thats pretty fucking big given the fact that its an 11sec CD
- can be paired with SR + def stance
for pretty much every mechanic in the game
so arms is still MASSIVELY tanky
they only people who say arms has surv issues are people who do not press defensives
wicked pollen
^
i think the main problem with ip on arms is that its cd is too long
and its stuck at df values
but good button
strong forum
fucking IP is stuck at BFA values
strong forum
thats how bad it is
in bfa, for prot, 1 IP was 11-13% of your HP as an absorb per press
rn its at 5 or smth%
wicked pollen
i think the only time i tried playing ip in a key it took me like 1 minute to stack for nw boss and i was spamming to not miss the rebuff
strong forum
i played IP 24/7 until i was forced into fbv for ovinax and kyveza
its just so good
but for raw hps vs dots fbv is better in raid
also not a dps loss :^)
tardy abyss
i think the main problem with ip on arms is that its cd is too long
ye thats what I hate about it
tardy abyss
even 1 IP is like a 15% ehp increase for arms
How are you getting to that number
Like raw its about 7% or so
pallid quiver
they only people who say arms has surv issues are people who do not press defens...
excuse me, i say arms isn't tanky because i can't stare down a raid boss for much longer than the length of die by the sword, thanks
It gets real sketch after that drops
strong forum
Like raw its about 7% or so
7% is still pretty massive for a 11sec cd lol
tardy abyss
hmm
kind urchin
excuse me, i say arms isn't tanky because i can't stare down a raid boss for muc...
I'd say your problem is the fact that you're tanking the boss as arms. Something has gone very wrong in that scenario.
strong forum
Dbts easily best defensive in the game
strong forum
The amount of times my tank flops in keys and the mobs to then snap to me
So I tank until the CR goes out
Is atleast once per key
Dbts -> leap kite until tank is back
Is run saving in pugs
Or dbts -> intervene
tardy abyss
tfw almost never play keys as arms to save runs đŚ
tardy abyss
I wouldnt mind playing arms ngl
jagged gust
tfw almost never play keys as arms to save runs đŚ
sounds like you're unable to...
die by the sword
tardy abyss
Colossus is giga fun
strong forum
Better aoe as arms đ
tardy abyss
I might play dps in keys next season
Will see
Would have loved to play ele but the changes are not looking great
So its prob either enh fury or arms
strong forum
I only see 2 options there
tardy abyss
I only see one
jagged gust
no way enh stays meta, that shit is getting rotated so hard next season
tardy abyss
Afaik enh players are happy
strong forum
Cuz enha is a mess rn
tardy abyss
Fair
strong forum
Braindead spender spam
tardy abyss
Arms 4p could go hard in keys no?