the prot tree is really tight; the only spot you can actually swap to take Show of Force is not taking Thunderlords:
#protection
vale bolt
I don't take Battering Ram because I take Disrupting but in dungeons where I don't need Disrupting I was thinking of taking Show of Force
strong forum
nah battering ram is infinitely more dmg than show of force
shield slam is by far your top dmg in keys
revenge and TC are not
lusty grotto
so drop bloodsurge for disrupting
lusty grotto
ehh
vale bolt
Surely that's not a good thing to drop
strong forum
bloodsurge on average is 7-12% overall rage gen
depending on mob density of a dungeon
and battering ram is 8k++ dps (especially in single target)
so pick your poison
whichever you wanna drop to get a 1.5min CD aoe interrupt which more often than not you dont even use as interrupt but just as aoe taunt instead
vale bolt
I use it quite a lot in dungeons like EB
And Throne
It enables certain pulls for prot that I just can't do reliably in pugs without being a purple tank
strong forum
nice but not necessary at all
vale bolt
In an organised group sure, but I only run with monkeys most of the time that don't have interrupt bound because it doesn't do any damage
strong forum
so you play around that fact
and only play for yourself
you got kick, shield charge stun, SW, spellblock, intim shout, shockwave, stormbolt and spell reflect
all to desync casters
so you dont get clapped
vale bolt
Yep I'm getting better at using those to try to provide more utility
I mained VDH (before it was OP) so it's very different to prot
strong forum
adding an aoe interrupt into that toolkit without using your already exisiting utility properly just makes it harder for yourself
if you ask me
cuz you add even more decisions to what you should do next
vale bolt
Very true
strong forum
do i interrupt or do i stun/fear/reflect/use a def CD
plush tendon
I watched Yoda do a EB last night on his rogue with a prot war
unironically, they have enough stops and it seemed pretty smooth
but players are getting way to used to sigil spam and they forget there was a time before double sigil where you had to deal with these same type of packs
vale bolt
That is the thing about VDH. You used to carry pug groups with prot pala because of the amount of kicks you could solo, now that role is filled by VDH because you can solo even more. Next season VDH is gonna be even stronger because a lot of the keys reward lots of aoe stops
The only thing they can ever do to blance the scales again is to actually just get rid of illuminated sigils. It was a fun experiment but it is very very broken in what it enables
warm plinth
No they don't. Newer dungeons have the desync technology that prevents a lot of dangerous casts from happening at the same time.
Stops are still important. But aoe stops are relatively less impactful.
vale bolt
And yet you will still want a VDH in those dungeons because you can allow your group to afk the stops and leave it to one player
dark barn
Season 4 dungeons are more stop based than interrupt based
warm plinth
How so
plush tendon
they turned some casts that used to be interruptable into non-interrutable
example that comes to mind are the casters on the bridges in AA
you also have those earthbreaker dudes in Ruby Life Pools
cant be letting those off
warm plinth
What casters in AA were made non-interruptible? They extended the cd of some spells but I didn't notice any uninterruptible spells when I did it on PTR
plush tendon
trying to remember the exact name; but they are like mana dudes
surge Is the cast I think?
warm plinth
All they did to surge was increase the cast time
limpid ruin
I think it was the rain
Sorry no that was just removed completely
It’s blast that’s now stop only
limpid ruin
thanks Stoat King!
grim pilot
What casters in AA were made non-interruptible? They extended the cd of some sp...
Mystic blast or something
Idk the name of the spell
Its an aoe hit
shut summit
the scepter mob
strong forum
Mystic blast was never interruptable so you gotta use stuns
ruby berry
It also casted something, a rain I believe?
warm plinth
The rain is gone entirely
ruby berry
Yeah did it yesterday on ptr, good changes overall.
stark lance
Are keys just absolutely abysmal now at the end of the season? So many 480 +people who just dont do anything except stand there and do bad dps
hardy snow
480 is nothing at this moment of season
strong forum
ilvl itself is not an indicator of anything these days
cerulean tusk
It indicates what ilvl they currently might have equipped 
cerulean tusk
Are keys just absolutely abysmal now at the end of the season? So many 480 +peop...
I am doing 20s with 445-470 ppl and having a blast 
pure goblet
strong forum
every tank can solotank HC and below fyrakk
on mythic only BDK can solotank forever
VDH can also solotank for quite a while, but not as relaxed as BDK
waxen frigate
Are keys just absolutely abysmal now at the end of the season? So many 480 +peop...
Been that way
median tulip
I have honestly had better M+ experiences in the "Break the Meta" groups than regular ones recently
ionic fern
dusky canopy
I have honestly had better M+ experiences in the "Break the Meta" groups than re...
🤔 there’s not really any Fotm players there
Imagine that one
median tulip
Yup
And that means the average quality of the players is higher
I've seen off-meta specs pulling numbers that would make top rank pallys green with envy
merry quail
The thing is, meta tanks are not meta for their damage, and it only takes a spec to be 5% better than every others to be meta
so yeah, BTM "meta" is actually not a world behind actual meta
lime parcel
What the hell do I do on Deios about that damn frontal
I get clapped every time because I just don't have enough CDs
pallid quiver
You can leap every other
Do also note that spell block only helps with the upfront, not the dot, but it does help with the adds, who really truck you
lime parcel
I just did my first 18 and I got mollywhopped by it
All the bosses in there really but that was the only one we wiped on
Also wow that’s completely not intuitive that it’d be blockable
pallid quiver
Spellblock, not normal block
Honestly, what spellblock blocks for him is quite intuitive for how it normally works, since it usually doesn't work on dots, but works on any instanced damage. Loosely, at least
I say usually, since it works on almost every dot of note in Amirdrasill
lime parcel
I just usually think of aoe as being not blockable most of the time, normal or spell
pallid quiver
That's
a bad habit to get into, since there's a lot of frontals and aoes that are normal blockable, even
Heck, there's some floor puddles that are spell reflectable, too
blazing condor
Block also gives ss damage
fringe lava
In AoE: Are you trying to snipe targets with the most bleeds for the tier set?
I never tracked this as I thought bleeds are applied naturally with standard rotation. But just now realized that it might proc more frequent than applying new bleeds to the same target.
Are you guys tracking and sniping?
jagged pier
theres literally no need to do that
pallid quiver
Technically, it might even be a DPS loss
fringe lava
Good!
I blacklisted most debuffs from plater as I feel it just clutters my screen but seen someone on Twitch/YT having a big ass icon on the middle of the screen for when the tier procs 😄
blazing condor
Im tracking tier set procs
But as you say it more or less happens naturally
So you dont ”need” it
limber galleon
I did my first m+ as prot in a while (since season 1 basically) and ended up at 82% shield block uptime is that decent? Should I aim for 100%? I noticed my DPS was quite low compared to my brewmaster on a similar ilvl (460), I'm really hitting SS whenever it's up and hitting every other Revenge when Rage or procs allow them but yeah it's not great 😦
what do your damage breakdowns look like in m+?
grim pilot
shield block uptime doesnt show what you need to know
which is blocked hits
u need to log to see taht
when it comes to breakdown, it's usually something like this: shield slam > fervid bite > thunder clap > some bleeds in my case
warm plinth
I did my first m+ as prot in a while (since season 1 basically) and ended up at ...
Do you have a log?
limber galleon
No sorry I will log next key
limber galleon
when it comes to breakdown, it's usually something like this: shield slam > ferv...
I see thank you 🙏
cerulean tusk
My damage breakdown is: Legendary, 
, 
, 
strong forum
no just bad rng
or well
average RNG
it did 10k dps
i have like 50% crit
6% augury is basically break even dps
didnt lose any didnt gain any
knotty vortex
do we know yet what the M+ trinket will be? augury+
strong forum
for s4?
all-totem + grieftorch for dmg
for defense itll be cheat + tree-mouth splinter
for turbo keys it might be cheat + ward of faceless ire
knotty vortex
wow the augury dethroned huh
strong forum
augury was never that good to begin with
cerulean tusk
Aug just got really good highrolls
strong forum
aug is just a gamba trinket
it can do well
or absolutely horrendously dogshit
here augury was decently good
not amazing
cerulean tusk
How is ragegeart looking btw? Been strong all season
cerulean tusk
Sadge, I really liked the animation
strong forum
its still a solid trinket
good offensively compared to ward or splinter
but defensively there are better options
knotty vortex
Can u still block while channel grieftorch?
azure nimbus
Cheat will be stuck at 489 no ?
cerulean tusk
Cheat will scale to the new m0
strong forum
dawn will get an ilvl increase
it wont be new m0 itll be a new difficulty in itself
azure nimbus
Roger. Thanks 😊
strong forum
itll have hardmode
which drops heroic raid ilvl loot iirc
something along those lines
cerulean tusk
So +8? then +6 Ilvl for hardmode?
NGL didn't even memorise M0 loot Ilvl, as I will do m10s anyhow
strong forum
havent looked into it
cerulean tusk
cerulean tusk
No panikkz
strong forum
ADHD powers will activate soon enough
and then crunch hyperfixate mode will do the rest for me
grim pilot
so avg deadline
you'll do it the day before
except this time you can fix if you make a mistake, not like when you hand in a paper
torn gulch
yep cheat gets on the champion track that goes to 518
i wonder can you get a hardmode cheat on hero track?
warm plinth
Only last boss gets increased loot in hard mode
flat stratus
is vengeance back on mop remix ?
pallid quiver
Well, it's Dragonflight systems, soooooo
The only hope is if one of the gem thingies has a similar effect, but
that'd be hilarious fucked up
so they should do it 🙂
pallid quiver
Yeah, vengeance worked on pre-mit damage I feel like
I'd have to double check myself, though
because i can't remember for shite
At least they brought it back in some form
even though we ourselves won't get much use out of it
hardy snow
Yeah, vengeance worked on pre-mit damage I feel like
yup
plush tendon
cerulean tusk
I already am, with my 250k overalls 
with that I would prob just start soloboosting and get it done in record time
strong forum
250k overalls*
*in brh and everbloom
cerulean tusk
Trick is just pulling everything under the bosses if the others die, they die
cyan sorrel
tall heath
I’ve just reinstalled wow and looking at making a tank but overwhelmed with all the changes since I last played, are Prot warriors the go to tank in wow ? Better than say Druid/Pally in end game content ? Thanks in advance
jagged pier
the go too tank is demon hunter right now
pallid quiver
All tanks are extremely capable of clearing all content, with the only differences being notable in like world first keys,
But like Jakey mentioned, the overall meta and domineering tank is DH
If you're worried about community perception, last time I pulse checked, Prot Warrior was garbo tier and can't even tank +2s.
which i mean they've cleared mythic raid and like +28s, so
tall heath
The demon hunter wasn’t a thing when I last played , they just fotm?
jagged pier
not really
they do more damage can take more damage
and cc about 4 times as much as other tanks
they are extremely good right now
and bliz hasnt done any tuning for S4 yet
so still likely to be on top
tall heath
I’ll check the Demon Hunter out thanks, I assume most warriors are DPS spec’s then ?
cerulean tusk
We don't speak about warrior DPS
jagged pier
ummm not many ppl playing warrior at all right now cause the dps specs also bad
and dont really offer anything compared to other dps specs
tall heath
Warriors used to be so good, what has blizzard done 🥲
cerulean tusk
We are good, far from bad. Just not excellent
jagged pier
well they never like prot warrior
because ppl just cry if its 'good'
and they gave dps warriors a leggo
but tuned their damage around having it
so they do fuck all damage
urban portal
Warriors used to be so good, what has blizzard done 🥲
when was the last time you played out of curiosity
warrior hasnt been good in a while
cerulean tusk
BFA S3, probs
tall heath
Wrath of the lich kings, it’s been a minute 🙂
cerulean tusk
Oh boii, ye you will have to adjust quite a bit
tall heath
thats 2 decades
😂
urban portal
*almost 2 decades
cerulean tusk
tall heath
Yeah I got drawn back in when Insaw Chris Metzen
jagged pier
you poor soul
tall heath
Thought it would be nice next couple of years
cerulean tusk
The call to come home worked?
tall heath
The call to come home worked?
Yeah like the father and son scene from a knights tale 😁
I’ve heard warlocks /shamans can tank also now ? Or is that just niche situations ?
cerulean tusk
That is season of discovery
tall heath
So they can only tank during a specific season? Please forgive my ignorance
waxen quarry
yer we werent even top then
erm akschually
shadwomourne fury is good 🤓
(very relevant)
urban portal
are you playing wow classic?
cerulean tusk
Back then warrior was great. Only modern minmax and knowledge changed that
urban portal
or are you playing retail
cerulean tusk
So they can only tank during a specific season? Please forgive my ignorance
Poke, as Ronin forgot to
tall heath
Just started retail
urban portal
Back then warrior was great. Only modern minmax and knowledge changed that
doesn't that just makes it worse, since you the class is only good if the community is ignorant
urban portal
So they can only tank during a specific season? Please forgive my ignorance
season of discovery is essentially a new take on wow classic
so its still classic
cerulean tusk
doesn't that just makes it worse, since you the class is only good if the commun...
Historical context matters. What was top notch healthcare 10 000 years ago, with modern knowledge ain't that good in comparison anymore. We don't judge them for their ignorance, and we don't call their health care "bad". It was good healthcare or the best, at the time
urban portal
well because technology changed
technology is the same in woltk classic as it is in woltk now
jagged pier
i dunno i feel like the knowledge was there back in the day all beit it, it was a different time. like meber season one when the info was there at the start that paladin was the best tank in m+ and bdk andmonk were best in raid
yet no one believed me
we had both the info and technology at that time
cerulean tusk
I still don't believe you
tall heath
I think it was just the case that warriors were default tanks back then, weather that was right or wrong who knows, I remember pallies were only used for specific fights in karazhan
dark barn
Do you guys know a content creator who talks about prot warrior... builds, rotation, what to buy with buliarks etc? I can only find fury/arm
cerulean tusk
we had both the info and technology at that time
Info and tech, but not knowledge
tall heath
Maybe because many of us came from EverQuest and warriors were always main tanks 🤷♂️
jagged pier
Info and tech, but not knowledge
me and nome literally gave this channel the knowledge week 1 what u talking about
XD
jagged pier
Do you guys know a content creator who talks about prot warrior... builds, rotat...
plka maybe
cerulean tusk
Six, you can find most in the pins. Sadly yogi don't stream anymore
jagged pier
apart from that nope there probably wont be on
urban portal
also it's not like people has been cooking up woltk knowledge for the last 10 years
we just have better formulas and frameworks
ppl just winged it back then
tall heath
ppl just winged it back then
👆
urban portal
back then ppl didnt take math seriously
cerulean tusk
We are not the same we were 2 decades ago, we are far more honed and specialised. That is my point. You can't compare the two
jagged pier
just because ppl winged it doesnt mean blizzard favoured warriors back then
which is what i believe penfold said
tall heath
I mean the player base favoured warriors
cerulean tusk
Zug zug
jagged pier
i think youll find like the most played class back then was druid
because its been druid or hunter since like classic
just because of the 4 specs/ soloablility of the class
but i dunno i felt in wrath dks were all the rage
tank in all 3 specs
did more damage and dpsers
🤷
dark barn
Imo now most people plays hunter and paladin
jagged pier
well actually druid is most played class now because of bots
cerulean tusk
Druids got to be up there, if not only by bots
jagged pier
tall heath
Wow still rampant with bots out farming nodes etc ?
cerulean tusk
Yep, they are just shared out of your sight more
But if you go lookin, or look at all, ya find em
jagged pier
its because they all stealth next to a node spot
tall heath
But if you go lookin, or look at all, ya find em
Bit like prostitutes
jagged pier
then just mine then go stealth again
cerulean tusk
Bit like prostitutes
One old guy to another, the 2000s kind of jokes are banable in the 2020s, stay safe
tall heath
👍
cerulean tusk
🫡
urban portal
is yogi gone
cerulean tusk
Got to be
jagged pier
been gone for a while
cerulean tusk
I miss his gameplay vide, it really made me reflect upon my own
jagged pier
i dont
cerulean tusk
jagged pier
how many times we had to tell him to put it in promotion
waxen frigate
I’m gonna start doomposting
jagged pier
because he doesnt listen to feedback
waxen frigate
how many times we had to tell him to put it in promotion
What if I spam tiktoks but not ones I created
😼
jagged pier
i will get u banned
waxen frigate
true dagger
#showtooltip
/cast [stance:2]!Defensive Stance;!Battle Stance
This is my stance swap macro, but if i'm in defensive, it wont swap to battle stance. Giving me "Spell not learned" error. But I do have both talents chosen.
(Not sure if it matters but I'm 62, just dungeon leveling, but want to at least get my bars set up for 70 so I don't have any bad habits)
I can swap between the two without the macro and just pressing the spell
#showtooltip
/castsequence !Defensive Stance, !Battle Stance
This one from wowhead also gives me the same error
jagged pier
just use the one in the pins
true dagger
Same thing, if I'm defensive stance, I can use it to swap to Battle Stance, but when I'm battle stance, it doesnt' work
Probably nothing, but I have both buffs, this is normal correct? This is me in battle stance, when I'm in defensive stance, I have two different defensive stances
true dagger
well I'm done swapping stances for now
warm plinth
Probably nothing, but I have both buffs, this is normal correct? This is me in b...
Is this a weak aura?
true dagger
Stock UI for my buffs
warm plinth
Odd. I assume you're not actually getting both buffs
true dagger
I feel like it is a leftover from BFA or something, haven't played warrior since then
Because the defensive stand I always have says reduces damage by 10%, when it should be 5%
warm plinth
We didn't have stances in bfa
wind oak
you can right click the buff too
true dagger
taht doesn't work, right clicking the buff
Still have defensive stance in spiritform lol
warm plinth
But that is why the macro isn't working.
true dagger
Oh okay, so that did work. It went away once I rezzed, thanks all
warm plinth
You just don't need the stance 2 part.
lusty grotto
oh nice
warm plinth
Ignore me
true dagger
there goes my 40% damage reduction though... thanks a lot
warm plinth
You do
Lmao
I would be very surprised if it was actually giving you both but rip you if it was
Though if it was, I assume you'd probably also be doing 15% less damage lol
true dagger
Yea, interesting at least, wonder what caused it. Macro is working just fine now though
waxen frigate
Me when @lusty tiger
lusty grotto
LOL
knotty vortex
we running all totem and manic grieftorch in s4
strong forum
In m+ for dmg, very likely yes
But signet and avil will absolutely destroy the meters if you can keep both up
strong forum
🫠
strong forum
Ik but everyone who attempted to 5tank so far did extremely poor attempts
Actual yoke
grim pilot
think you can do some giga pulls
that people are just not doing
5pwars with disrupting shout
is literally silence sigils
grim pilot
whats the issue tho, dps is not that much lower
grim pilot
I guess that depends what kind of key level are we talking about
I was thinking 25-27's
strong forum
Yeah
You don't have nearly the dmg
That real comps do
In terms of burst dps for big pulls
You can chain infinitely
But you can't go "larger"
Just because you're tankier
But the pulls will take alot longer if you go turbo large, cuz you wanna have an optimised comp
And that includes prot pally, warrior, druid and 2x vdh
And uh, pally and warrior don't do as much aoe as vdh
Druid will fall off after incarn
Pally will just outright do 0 aoe or 0 ST depending on build
You see where I'm going with this?
Vdh also only has burst dps
So the 1.2mil peak that vdh has for the first 10 seconds of a pull, will trickle down to like 400k
And the biggest hindering factor for 5tank keys is ST dps
So you don't build for aoe pump, you do the same normal efficient pulls, except you don't need insane CC rotations or kick rotas or anything
You just grug, aim to do as much dmg as you can, cuz survivability is not an issue. Finding the dmg output is
And pulling too big "cuz you're 5 immortal tanks" is what makes pull inefficient and will wipe you instead cuz you run out of CDs
strong forum
Same as today
Except tanks are wildly stronger now than in SL
But 5tank is not as viable anymore cuz barely depleted keys don't count anymore
mh okay less 27s than i remembered
but yeh
grimrail depot 28 was doable, if you get a clean run
same with gambit
workshop was absolute terror however
and lower kara required ALOT of dmg output
this was pre-nerf iirc
jagged pier
i miss 5 tank streams
strong forum
same
jagged pier
back next season?
jagged pier
blazing condor
i miss 5 tank streams <:sadge:820202363359854633>
5 pwarr 
lusty tiger
No fair sense gets to emote (it is probably fair)
jagged pier
5 pwarr <:sadgers:1022526082278248631>
fun times
sullen gust
Is there anything you would change about last stand given the chance? I find it to be a pretty underwhelming button to press a lot of the time. Like a little extra health is nice but for a 3 min CD I just feel like it needs more
strong forum
I feel like it should be akin to Vamp Blood.
- health and healing increase taken
Which it kinda already does in a sense
Cuz it buffs all your %based self healing
Indomitable and Impending Victory also heal for 30% more during last stand, cuz you have 30% more hp (duh)
And your Ignore Pain cap is also 30% larger
Issue is just that the individual IP cast is not buffed up, I feel like if that was the case aswell, then it'd be already plenty strong
So last stand is deceptively weak, but once you understand how pwar works a little more, it's not as bad as it initially looks like
arctic finch
can dungeon bosses crit you?
waxen parcel
anyone that can help with reading a log?
lusty grotto
can dungeon bosses crit you?
no, that hasnt been the case in a big while
lusty grotto
anyone that can help with reading a log?
wat you need fam
warm plinth
anyone that can help with reading a log?
You can DM it to me and I can check it after this key if you want.
Or post it here; I'm sure someone will look
lusty grotto
ye DM @warm plinth 😄
pallid quiver
anyone that can help with reading a log?
I'd be able to look if you send it here now
pallid quiver
random idea
petition for blizz to make lego axe our ravager
vast sierra
Hello guys, any thoughts about pwarrior next season for m+ ? Does it struggles a lot in some dungeons ? Thanks
ionic fern
We will be completely fine. There are strong defensive trinket choices to bolster us even more.
The issue, as it is now, is grouping multiple caster packs effectively.
VDH/Paladin will still shine due to the utility they offer.
ionic fern
That's the main reason i use Disrupting Shout in EB for example.
Not because we don't have tools to deal with the damage, but to group them easier, so you can do 2-3 packs together, instead of 1.
hardy snow
warm plinth
@ionic fern hi ily
ionic fern
<@238357283996696576> hi ily
Hey,how have you been? Enjoying the down-time before s4?
jagged pier
i hope hes been touching grass
torn gulch
i have 2 problems with S4: that VDH is still stupidly broken and the solution is pretty easy but i have not seem it yet and that uldaman needs some more stuff nerfed
rest is fine
blazing condor
Can't wait to hop into my favorite dungeon Uldama- 
compact palm
Same bro same
jagged pier
blazing condor
shitposting is a gift
compact palm
plush tendon
i have 2 problems with S4: that VDH is still stupidly broken and the solution is...
they havnt touched any classes for S4 
which is a little weird, but like... at least we know whats gonna be the 'best' pick
these damn caster comps got me feeling a certain type of way
torn gulch
they have to otherwise we're gonna see exodia back like s2 that was a complete clusterfuck
torn gulch
and the fix for vdh is so simple as well
plush tendon
as someone whos playing VDH as a main right now, yes the fix is obvious... but it wont happen till next expac
hardy snow
since 10.2.5. they dont care about tuning, only significant thing they did is some rework for holy priest without even testing it on ptr 🤷♂️
torn gulch
bliz
it's crazy to me that they can't even take like 1h to do some basic balancing because that's how much it will take
plush tendon
but I did get to do a key with a fury and a WW yesterday
and I was so happy
casters are always like 'do I really need to use my CC' and melee are so on top of it
.#makemeleebisagain
jagged pier
it's crazy to me that they can't even take like 1h to do some basic balancing be...
if they cared we would have had it by now
member when they said they would tune the tier sets for S4
i member
plush tendon
it is what it is
if ya want to push title, just play VDH; if ya want to just have fun, play what you want
plush tendon
thats pretty much it
torn gulch
basically
plush tendon
its not as bad as S1 of SL where the only tank that could be played in dungeons* was a VDH
everything is totally viable to push with.... but there is a correct choice
ionic nimbus
its not as bad as S1 of SL where the only tank that could be played in dungeons*...
Run Chicken Run! .... weird season as tank ..
torn gulch
i hated tanking that season in m+
i play a tank because i am not a pussy i want to stay in front and tank hits not run away
ionic nimbus
But S1 BfA was not better ... BDK or you life was so much harder, and warrior with GCD on IP was not playable ..
torn gulch
s1 bfa that season was as infested as the affix
ionic nimbus
1st infested key for me was KR on a prot warrior, yikes ...
warm plinth
I'm very glad that I missed that season
topaz field
People are massively overacting about meta. Just find friends to play with. We got title this season with survival hunter and arms warrior in group
But ofc if you are lfg Andy u have to play meta
warm plinth
I have never had an issue playing non-meta specs but I will say that my experience in pugs is that people apply for keys way over what their score supports. Very very often I will have applicants to keys who haven't completed even 2 levels below the key I've posted.
ashen rock
I mean S1 of DF was 100% warrior
warm plinth
It wasn't
grizzled nova
was a few bdks in there
warm plinth
It wasn't that insane. Overall rep was brew pretty low at 8.6% with there being an 11% spread between vdh and pwar (ppal finished slightly behind). In top keys it was 54% ppal, pwar and bdk about even, then brew, vdh and druid all between 3-7%
We've had a lot more dominant seasons like s3/4 shadowlands
dark barn
I played prot all three seasons. Sometimes its hard to be invited but i have done everything i tried to do (io 3100, suuuper high keys are boring IMO so i dont care)
I try to invite offmeta if possible to not feed the meta-only environment
torn gulch
up to 25's you can do keys with any tank and get a decent amount of invites
i started having problem with invites past 25's
trying to get an invite for 27 atal or 27 brh this season while having double 26's on the board was horrible
dark barn
Past 25 you are just playing in hard mode without vengeance.
cerulean tusk
Why ppl don't seem to want to network, I will never know
jagged pier
^^
cerulean tusk
Just can't be effective trying to push up, and not doing so. Sounds counterproductive.
dusky canopy
I have pugged 3k multiple times now
I think that’s why Mythic plus is so popular
You don’t have to commit to a schedule or team to get the highest rewards that it offers
Well there’s an argument for title
But that is technically puggable an Outlaw in my guild has done it
I also recognize “3k” isn’t as cool as it used to be but that’s besides the point
cerulean tusk
Not saying you can't push title as pure PuG. I am saying you are likely making it a lot harder for your self. Especially if you are not meta. As networking will over time simplify and ease the process.
3k is the same as clearing the HC raid. Respectable, but very much expected to be done by anyone with low effort. You can PuG it week 1 or do it as a guild. In most cases, doing a HC clear with the guild should be a lot cleaner, if done with like minded people that want it done and gone.
For many, their networks are not goal oriented but social. As such, PuGing will make more sense. Yet if you specialise a part of it, you basically get the PuG+ experience with the benefit of maybe making new friendships.
lusty tiger
Idk if being 3k is like clearing heroic raid
Since most bosses in a 23/24 key are harder than every heroic boss
cerulean tusk
Two different situations, hard to compare. But for myself doing a low 20 key or doing HC raid requires the same mindset. Wasd
manic mural
What level of keys do you have to do week 1 to get 3k? That seems crazy
solemn current
More so week 2
jagged pier
literally doesnt matter u can build to 3k over the whole season
blazing condor
week 1 3k would be doing 40s lol
cerulean tusk
Ez week 1 stuff fr fr
lusty tiger
are they?
Yeah I mean some classes are going to get nearly one shot or one shot without pressing defensives which doesn’t happen in heroic, also from a healer perspective it is much more demanding with timing and positioning
hardy snow
member when they said they would tune the tier sets for S4
werent there some minor changes in last patch notes?
cerulean tusk
They did do minor tweaks to all of them. Yet with classic blizz care, so all untargeted and just thrown in there.
Hit or miss, all happy coincidence
warm plinth
Well, we don't need our tier set tuned because it's already scaling with our damage and we've been pretty much unchanged for a long time. We need some tuning as a spec but the tier set will scale with us anyway.
median tulip
We've been in the position throughout this expansion of not being bad enough to get buffed but not good enough to be really wanted
warm plinth
100%. We need buffs as a spec (damage-wise) but our tier is fine.
median tulip
TBH I feel our damage is the least of our issues. I would like some additional control and abilities to actually protect people. Bring Back Safeguard, Make Intervene Great Again, give us Morale Killer in PvE etc etc
lusty grotto
its not that its the least of our issues
its that it should be relatively easy for blizzard to fix
its all perception, kind of
median tulip
Well that's a fair point
lusty grotto
cc, control, utility is something blizzard consistently turn a blind eye on
so i understand why you would say something like that
kind of like a prio for blizz
median tulip
If Safeguard made a comeback I might spec it. Or if it worked with Spell Reflect.
waxen frigate
I think it would be cool if it allowed you to spell reflect
But would need a much longer cd imo
Like 1min
lusty grotto
honestly, and i abused SR + Intervene for glad pushes
i think SR should stay away from intervene
median tulip
Being able to apply SR to someone else... like, being able to actually PROTECT someone? yes, please
lusty grotto
and just make a big cd for group SR or something
median tulip
That would be fun too. Especially if you could do it on a boss fight somewhere
waxen frigate
and just make a big cd for group SR or something
Ok now that would be beyond busted
Lmao
waxen frigate
Nah
lusty grotto
separate button
median tulip
They would probably make it a choice node with Rallying Cry or something
lusty grotto
or just tie to rally
median tulip
Imagine if you could give everyone SR for the last boss SBoltVolley in BRH lol
lusty grotto
well
nish is right
so maybe do tie it with intervene, kind of like spellwarding
a choice node for safeguard + intervene'd SR
dusky canopy
How do you know trees fall in the woods if you can’t hear it?
lusty grotto
yes
warm plinth
I've seen morale killer mentioned many times and it would be busted as fuck in pve
No shot that needs to happen
median tulip
Morale Killer would be so OP
But we need something a bit OP. It's not like other tanks don't have OP stuff
warm plinth
Okay but our "failing" as it were is utility if anything
And giving us a 15 sec cd groupwide DR would be absolutely busted
lusty grotto
yeah idk
additional stuff would be rough
i think the right answer is to add a bit more to our existing toolkit when it comes to helping the group survive and thats it
dusky canopy
I’d say monk and bdk are about the same value as we are
median tulip
Intervene is useless in its present form. Bringing Safeguard back is a simple fix. It's not even like Safeguard hasn't been available in PvE before.
dusky canopy
BDK does have Brez but that’s not a massive thing
VDH, Pali, & Bear are loaded with M+ things
median tulip
3 of the 6 tanks have Brez, but none of them want to use it
dusky canopy
Also imo giving us a group wide dr is still less valuable than current VDH because taking no damage at all is still better than DRing the damage
median tulip
Sigils, Grip/Abom and a multi target interrupt are all powerful signature utilities that are setting the curve for tanks right now.
dusky canopy
Also imo giving us a group wide dr is still less valuable than current VDH becau...
But an argument against that would be that group dr on bosses would be pretty huge
median tulip
On certain bosses yes
dark barn
I think warrior should be the tank who takes the less damage of all to start to compensate less utility
warm plinth
I don't think anything is setting a curve. Vdh is outside of the standard deviation right now. Curbing that should be goal right now.
dark barn
Double sigils need to go away
warm plinth
I agree. At the very least the silence sigil portion
dark barn
Im pretty curious about new iterations with shockwave next expansion. Have potential
warm plinth
Same here. I'm actually gonna play on beta if I get access this time around
dusk fog
hmmm. Mirror or ocean?
dusk fog
Well
the 3m CD will always win in a sim that short
one use of each will always favour the stronger use
dusk fog
So why suggest that I sim it lol
lusty grotto
do you know which one is stronger?
dusk fog
in a sim? they are essentially the same for my toon
lusty grotto
are they?
lusty grotto
based on what
lusty grotto
ok im just asking where youre taking the info from?
lusty grotto
ok well
dusk fog
Allow me to rephrase my original comment
lusty grotto
if thats how you feel about it
if youre not asking about dps, then youre leaning towards defensive use
also no need to be a dick about it
im not trying to be a dick to you
dusk fog
Does any one have a strong preference between ocean and mirror. In my own sims they preform very similarly. I suppose you could get one free use pre pull from mirror. But you're more likely to lose a cast through out the whole key with a 3m CD. Does the community have a strong prefference between them?
I was not "being a dick" Nor did I assume that you were "being a dick"
lusty grotto
k
dusk fog
k lol
lusty grotto
..
dusk fog
maybe you just play both. Like the degen casters do lol
dusky canopy
I would play might
Mirror is only good if you pull massively every 3 minutes
Or if your team can kill a raid boss in less than two full durations of might
dusk fog
Yea and I feel like mirror is probably better for other toons than it is for mine. I have so much fuckin haste on this toon that giving me 3.5k more ontop of my 7k is just like... HOLY
dusk fog
facts
lusty grotto
what up
dusky canopy
Not much preparing for a 2nd attempt at fyrakk tonight
lusty grotto
nice nice
dusky canopy
Planning to play arms
dusky canopy
So am I man I liked the SD procs for arms gameplay
I will say though MS on ptr feels really nice
Hits hard
dusky canopy
No way! Arms is owning and you don’t have to cleave in ST
lusty grotto
we'll see
lusty grotto
i thought fury liked s2
warm plinth
For keys, not for raid
lusty grotto
ah
cerulean tusk
Just wait till they notice - oh right, not the best AoE damage, and now far bellow ret on prio damage as well.
Gonna be some good times for the saltmines stonkz
cerulean tusk
I am still confused what happened with BDK
jagged gust
I don't actually know what set boomies went with, just hope it wasn't S2
strong forum
s1
cerulean tusk
Nerfed s1***'
strong forum
well no
they took the post-nerf s1 set
not the pre-nerf s1 set
and every boomkin got baited into thinking that "rebalancing" of tierset meant it would go back to pre-nerf
instead of just a numerical buff
cerulean tusk
They played themselves
strong forum
they fell for the "surely blizz will balance interestingly"
image if pwar woulda gotten s1 set
we would be worse off than paladin
cuz s1 set is 400% worse than s3 set 
cerulean tusk
Paladin was happy with their free versa, as far I have heard
BDK tho is pulling their hair
strong forum
yeah they only lose like 15% dps!
so good!
very happy!
BDK gets s2 set
which was fine
plush tendon
2 piece 2 piece is gonna be slamming for DK
cerulean tusk
Tuning is coming on release
jagged gust
I don't actually get why the vers buff is wanted, if it was partywide it might allow some alternative comps in high level play, but it just kinda of seems like they didn't want to have to play around with consc for another season
plush tendon
Paladin S1 was simple but ok
Paladin S2 was pretty ass
and Paladin S3 is good, but players are done with 'stand in ground affect' mechs
many also assumed there would be .#tuning so numbers would get fixed
but alas, here we are
strong forum
I don't actually get why the vers buff is wanted, if it was partywide it might a...
"pally was meta in s1, so clearly it was cuz of the tierset"
you can see that exact trend
on every class almost
pwar could beat that trend
cerulean tusk
So you telling me, we should have voted s1 protwarrior, and ask for them to keep it at that level?
strong forum
plush tendon
cerulean tusk
🫡 I will tell the devs
strong forum
it was too close for comfort
luckily we could stop the dumb fucking decision
but rsham got s1
prot pally s1
vdh s3, bear s2
monk was never meta so idk what they got
plush tendon
I think VDH had to get S3
I dont think they would let them have it again
but it would be kind of ridiculous if they got it again....
Brand uptime would be through the roof
or maybe not... idk anymore
warm plinth
monk was never meta so idk what they got
Brew kept this season
hardy snow
maybe I will do this 1mil plunders
warm plinth
you can grieftorch during charge
I love that they changed that
I think it was actually a change back wasn't it? I think you could move while channeling it initially
strong forum
no clue never had it in s1
grim pilot
who says you'll have it in s4
rageheart moment
unless u spend dinars on it or however that system worked cant recall
strong forum
You're gonna spend your bullions on eranog and diurna ring
No shot are you gonna use them on smth else
Everyone is gonna lust after eragon ring
Buying that thing ASAP is turbo priority
And maybe gholak for prot
There's like 300 good trinkets but only once every 3 weeks can you get gholak and eragon
toxic pewter
pallid quiver
I'm gonna spend mine on cosmetics that last past the one season
oh
there's an augury in my vault finally
shut summit
just in time
pallid quiver
I guess I can slap something with it this week
might do me some good week 1, too, considering this season's trinket luck
i've really only gotten 4 trinkets this season
ursine, rageheart, might of the ocean, and now augury
kind glen
Has there been a write up for prot warrior talking about what will be the best case bullion uses?
pallid quiver
They keep fidgetting with trinkets last I had checked, so I'd be very surprised if one came out this early
Especially since if there was any change after, people would lose their minds over it
kind glen
Fair enough. Nomer mentioned the Eggnog ring so I was wondering if there was some discussion already had about bullion usage.
pallid quiver
Nome's the wowhead writer, so he'd be one of the two people likely to come out saying what to spend on, so
effect rings and gholak most likely, considering how many trinkets are at least good
lusty grotto
lol Luerce
i guess i gotta change my nick next tuesday
wait
i could do it right now since i aint reclearing heroic this week
horray!
pallid quiver
he's been freed of the shackles of the past
dusky canopy
@lusty grotto
LOL
Got to have fun with some p3 arms tonight
and ended up getting a gholak
lusty grotto
nice
dusky canopy
My kill pull sucked it was very last pull of the night and i wiffed my cds hard
still top p3 dam though
arms owns
NOT ONLY THAT
but my last vault was might
lmao
lusty grotto
xD
dusky canopy
FFFF
pallid patio
can someone answer me a weird question please:
i was toying around with trinkets and while moving them around and unequipping them my tankiness went up. i got like 10% blockvalue ( from 41% ish to 45%) and 1% armor reduction altough losing armor because i dropped 1,6k STR. Is this some weird scaling thing they forgot about?
i replicatet this on 5 different tank classes, its all the same.
jagged pier
pvp scaling
pallid patio
no pvp activated
pallid patio
every tank has armor or?
pallid patio
it doesnt matter. all trinkets just have a empty slot
ionic fern
Okay, maybe i'm just a moron, but what did you do?
You said you were moving trinkets around and your gained blockvalue / armor.
pallid patio
and unequipping them bro
ionic fern
To me it reads like "I equiped a trinket and gained X".
pallid patio
its in the poost
pallid patio
okay i found someone asking the same in 2023 and it seems the solution is the k-value scaling. which makes sense.
but is kinda depressing at the same time cause it means my purple pixels have alot less impact than it should be.
warm plinth
okay i found someone asking the same in 2023 and it seems the solution is the k...
How does it mean that
cerulean tusk
Should be fairly easy to replicate to test. I am not at the computer, so if anyone can:
- first, note current total armor and armor value. Same with block.
- unequip trinkets one at a time, then both, taking note of any changes in armor or block value.
- check the steps above on any tank class.
warm plinth
I'm pretty sure he was just noting block and armor values changing because he was targeting different mobs.
cerulean tusk
It is quite easy to confirm, or deny, though.
pallid patio
no i did not target different mobs...
i tried it in m0 where it was even more efed. even unequipping neck and rings which provided even more defensive value
hardy snow
do you have any screenshots of these changes you mention?
warm plinth
You're not being clear of when the changes actually took place.
hardy snow
if you lose stats - you lose armor because we have stat to armor scaling through some passives
cerulean tusk
Should be fairly easy to replicate to test. I am not at the computer, so if anyo...
I made a step by step checklist, for the ones who are confused.
Those are the claims. Should take 30 sec to check ingame
warm plinth
And k value, which was the reasoning given earlier today, would not explain any changes at all if the content type was not changing.
cerulean tusk
Just wait for someone to check it, and we know if it is a thing or not. Then we can break it down if it occurs.
warm plinth
I mean, we can't test something when we don't even know what actually was occurring. All we know is "I messed with trinkets and numbers changed"
cerulean tusk
I gave you the checklist of actions. Am I unclear?
hardy snow
I gave you the checklist of actions. Am I unclear?
but its obvious armor changes when you change items, whats to check there?
warm plinth
No, but you have no idea if you're even solving what he's claiming is happening with that checklist. Because we don't know what he was doing and what results he was getting, and when, and what trinkets he was using, and where he was.
cerulean tusk
If the value behaves as intended, is the question
warm plinth
Was he attacking mobs? Was he just standing there?
cerulean tusk
Just start with step 1... take it from there. Establish a baseline.
warm plinth
Nah I cba testing something when there's nothing concise to test. For all I know he was just ignoring the existence of armored to the teeth and gaining block value by gaining BfI stacks lol
cerulean tusk
Who knows, but it would be easy to check the base claim.
honest fiber
Seems like he’s engaging the mobs with a certain ilvl + stats, combat begins at that baseline. When he unequips a trinket, his ilvl/stats change but combat has already begun at the starting baseline. Then weird scaling happens
Is what im getting for that
pallid patio
i mean explain this armor goes down but reduction goes up. im in valdrakken atm but i testet it in m0 too
note the unequipped trinkets
warm plinth
What are you targeting in each of these screenshots
hardy snow
Ok, ive tested and I think thats what he means, tooltip for dmg reduction is higher for lower armor, 1. both trinkets, 2. no signet, 3. no augury (gives crit), I was in valdrakken not targeting anything
looks like tooltip scales with ilvl
pallid patio
and its the same with block value
hardy snow
Ive checked and its just no target issue.
When targeting raid dummy "against current target" works fine
cerulean tusk
Thanks, jawor. You the goat. Actually testing
hardy snow
with and without augur equipped
warm plinth
Thank you for the actual explanation of what is being seen. This is just ilevel scaling.
honest fiber
A true scientist
hardy snow
Its quite dumb imo that general tooltip scales with ilvl
while it has nothing to do regarding real incombat values
honest fiber
It does say “evenly matched enemy” though
warm plinth
It does have something to do with real in combat values. Lower ilevels are made somewhat stronger (relatively) against the same level mob as someone higher than them. It's to help make it not feel like you're getting your shit pushed in if you're trying to quest in less gear.
honest fiber
It does have something to do with real in combat values. Lower ilevels are made...
Which I hate because it makes gearing up feel less impactful
hardy snow
It does say “evenly matched enemy” though
Yea, looks like "evenly matched" to lower ilvl has differen k-value - thus the different scaling
warm plinth
The evenly matched is just using the are you level 70 vs what level is the mob and what content are you doing. It's just straight up k value formula
Which is why it's not changing even though the other nubmer is
number*
warm plinth
Which I hate because it makes gearing up feel less impactful
I mean, not in any noticeable way. And gearing up at max level even less so. Think how much ilevel you're losing by straight up unequipping an item like in this test.
And it's still only like a 1% difference
honest fiber
And it's still only like a 1% difference
Exactly. You’re replacing a ~480 ilvl item with effectively 0 and only seeing a 1% difference
warm plinth
Against nothing
In endgame content, that scaling doesn't hapoen
Happen
It's only in open world
hardy snow
percentage point*, not 1% 🙂
honest fiber
Thats what I mean, open world. It should feel better to get new loot
Just old man yelling at streamlined leveling
warm plinth
And your damage scales a lot faster than your survival
Which is why open world content still feels much easier to you now vs when you were a fresh 70
pallid patio
And your damage scales a lot faster than your survival
thank you for the not very helpful discussion, where you claimed everything i said was unclear (while it was not, it was explained multiple times ) or i had to do something serious wrong to get these numbers (which i didnt) and then coming to the exact same conclusion as i did 5 hours ago;
its ilvl scaling and k value and handholding by the game.
btw its not 1% its for trinkets alone around 5% EHP (checked with the Effective Health DF season 3 weakaura from Heartline)
but hey that may be wrong too
warm plinth
The DR was 1 percentage point. Who cares about effective health in open world? And it's obviously going to be affected when DR changes. And k value had nothing whatsoever to do with the thing you were experiencing. It was literally just ilevel.
And yes, it was unclear
And you were defensive from the get go when Mwahi asked for clarification
pallid patio
yeah have a nice one
cerulean tusk
It was not unclear, I even broke it down step by step. Some were just being difficult about it. Luckily Jawor the champ was here and we got to know if something was going on, then explain it.
Don't worry Debo, some times ppl just have a bad day. Always neat to gain a bit of knowledge, and one day you might strike gold on something fun like this
lusty grotto
who was having a bad day
from what ive been reading, they were just asking questions
its kinda odd when people ask questions, and we're trying to find out more info only to be met by "k", "lol", and general defensiveness and then the conversation turns into a shit slinging contest from which they leave going "harumph!"
compact palm
warm plinth
I'm not having a bad day lol. Thanks for assuming though. My annoyance was due to asking for clarification and being met with "it's not unclear", when it obviously was, and not just to me.
cerulean tusk
lusty grotto
i mean
youve been around long enough funky
youve seen this happen again and again
cerulean tusk
It baffles me every time 
lusty grotto
i guess if you meant the Debo dude was having a bad day it makes sense
but other than that it doesn't
cursive prawn
unreal gaslighting going on here
guy asked questions, got condescending responses, noped the fuck out
and now apparently he's at fault
wild
lusty grotto
uhh
cerulean tusk
Debo said "I do X, y happens" and instead of checking the claim. And it was true. He was asked other "clarifying questions", while not engaging.
lusty grotto
reread his answers again
urban portal
What’s going on
warm plinth
Where was anyone condescending to him?
lusty grotto
What’s going on
typical wednesday pretty much lol
warm plinth
I just reread the conversation and I didn't even get testy with him until the "thanks for the not very helpful conversation" post
Which is wild since I literally answered his question
hardy snow
typical wednesday pretty much lol
But it wont be typical wednesday in few hours 
lusty grotto
it'll be for me
warm plinth
But it wont be typical wednesday in few hours <:deswind:533073964096946176>
TIME TRAVELER
Oh I misread that
Nvm am dumb
lusty grotto
solemn vigil
How is prot looking for s4?
haughty lotus
is there a point where haste is les prioritized over crit?
haughty lotus
that is without fray buff i assume?
haughty lotus
oh okay good to know
lusty grotto
so yes, without ITF
haughty lotus
nice ty
grizzled nova
oh okay good to know
ITF is multiplicative with your total haste percentage. Your 'default' amount of haste is 100%, and with 7100 haste rating that's an additional ~41% haste, so ITF is giving you 10% of 141% haste, or an additional ~14% haste
haughty lotus
ah, cheers
grim pilot
ITF is multiplicative with your total haste percentage. Your 'default' amount of...
a really
thought its straight up 10%
good to know
chilly brook
Ye no, ITF only gets better the more haste you have
urban portal
thought its straight up 10%
Works the same way for iftk fyi
grim pilot
o
good shit
I assume it goes that way for every class in that case
(furious gaze)
lusty grotto
warm plinth
Started off like oh cool we got zerker rage baseline