protection

[opaque quest]

I agree on that

[sick sentinel]

what type of creature is this or based on

[opaque quest]

you

hah gotem

[waxen frigate]

Based on what

[sick sentinel]

just some old game i was playin the other day

you are this guy, in a ship, trying to make you way to that alien, basically

[waxen frigate]

Yeah but based on what

[sick sentinel]

i just figured there might be someone smart here off hand chance knows wtf that thing supposed to be, just a passing memory

[blazing condor]

looks like a big slug

[waxen frigate]

Same

[sick sentinel]

believe it or not, thats the final boss form

crawls out of the remains of this monstrosity, looks like a sea-horse and a dragon

the head is quite fantasy dragon looking to me

[warm plinth]

Sea snail maybe?

[sick sentinel]

the art work in this game for enemies is wild

[toxic pewter]

seems to be a hermit crab inspired creature

[frosty mango]

It’s a whelk

With trex arms

[keen leaf]

does anyone use titanic throw or disrupting shout in m+

[sick sentinel]

overgrown one, the ship you pilot is about the size of the fireball in his mouth

[uneven mason]

Yes, at times

[keen leaf]

im trying to figure out what i can drop to pick them up if needed, i cant find one i wanna lose lol

[uneven mason]

Disrupting is locked in for me in pugs

Can't trust kicks

[keen leaf]

yeah i kind finding myself needing it, LOS is a foreign language

[uneven mason]

Titanic I've had in my m+ build since forever, I only drop it in eb

Because it has very strange range in eb

[keen leaf]

i use the wowhead m+ build, what talent do u drop to grab them, if u know?

[uneven mason]

I've had it fly out to bumblefuck and tag 2 extra packs

Uh I'd have to look at the wh build

[grim pilot]

Its pretty good in eb I found

[uneven mason]

Yes disrupting, meant Titanic

Is iffy in eb specifically

[grim pilot]

Ye distrupting

So many casts going on

Mages r mostly fine +/- since fire mage gets nuked asap

And then its just 2 mages

But the casters around 1st boss are sometimes annoying

[cerulean tusk]

Another classic Apb L take.

No, even prot warrior zug zug. All warriors zug zug. Zug zug is all. Zug zug is zug.

Zug zug.

[toxic pewter]

no

[cerulean tusk]

ZUG ZUG

[ashen coral]

Hello, I have signet and rageheat, should I aim for augury and replace signet ? (I won’t replace rageheart)

Or is it already fine ?

[keen leaf]

i was about to ask the same thing, i have all 3, is it signet and rageheat as BIS?

I think signet is actually the best

[toxic pewter]

if you can keep signet stacks rolling and dont let them drop off it is best

signet is also not great for short raid boss fights

[blazing condor]

signet has the potential to be best

if you keep it up

[blazing condor]

I assume the sim for Brand is based on it being max stacks right? or is it some average

[strong forum]

It ramps up

From 0 to 15

Assuming the sim is long enough

If you sim a short sim, it won't reach high stacks

[blazing condor]

ah yeah ofc

[toxic pewter]

why do I feel like my brand ramps up faster when I play prot vs when i play arms or is it just in my head

[blazing condor]

i forgor how sims actually work

[strong forum]

It's 3ppm + haste

You have alot more haste as prot cuz ITF

[toxic pewter]

ohhhh right

that makes sense

[timber nest]

I finally got my brand this week. Was annoying see people parse higher than me and seeing my bad trinkets

[blazing condor]

i should run DGs for better trinkets considering i dont get shit from raid

at least try and get rezan

[toxic pewter]

i felt bad for this dude who was using veteren track trinkey so i gave him my rezan trinket that i won lol

[blazing condor]

based

[toxic pewter]

havent seen another drop since lol

also gave away heroic branch trinket from raid first boss which is actually a solid trinket if I say so myself

i keep feeling bad when I loot them lol

but I actually would use both perhaps in different situations when I dont want to use my brand

[blazing condor]

yeah i have branch it deals good dps

but im the same

[toxic pewter]

I like brand but sometimes its just not the optimal trinket in certain situations for me

[waxen frigate]

Brand is very bad in several keys

[toxic pewter]

not a fan of it as much when I play arms

[blazing condor]

id rather use augury tbh

[toxic pewter]

not being in control of the pace of pulls etc as a dps suk ass for signet

[blazing condor]

my healer hated me enough when i used anvil

no time to drink

[strong forum]

Bad healer

[blazing condor]

not disputing that

[waxen orbit]

Stonescale (cheat death) and Branch<Rageheart

If you don’t have Rageheart because it doesn’t exist then just run Branch

[lusty grotto]

worn doll is your friend for signet

realistically it can drop even after hitting a worn doll in dawn and throne but

it works for the rest

[lusty grotto]

i wouldnt suggest those

youre assuming key levels

you shouldn't

he was looking for LFR trinkets, what key levels do you think hes running?

also holy fuck replying to a 12am message

[frosty mango]

lol

I wasn’t looking for lfr tho

[lusty grotto]

are you sure

[frosty mango]

I have all 483 m+ trinkets and a heroic augury

That’s a diff person

[lusty grotto]

ah true

sorry both start with R

[frosty mango]

You were ready to fight tho I respect it

[west jacinth]

my regular raid, no trinkets from council, smolderon and fyrakk

[lusty grotto]

i just remember someone saying LFR

after i answered that

[warm plinth]

Nim is an angy boi

[toxic pewter]

Can just run a rezan trinket and call it a day

[lusty grotto]

there's a lot of IFs for trinkets

like the most solid option, without variables is probably Rageheart + Augury

and then we start with IFs

if you can keep combat up, signet is worth

if you are doing absolutely dangerous pulls in fort, cheat is worth

if youre doing rise on a very high tyrannical, cheat is worth

same goes for DHT, though to be honest... i dont think tree boss is as dangerous as Deios

and of course the final variable is

it depends on what you have available

rezan is solid for tyrannical, branch is solid for snap agro

[waxen orbit]

I backread

[waxen orbit]

I mean you don’t seem angry tbh bro

But I’m also autistic

I’d say if you’re doing real keys

[lusty grotto]

yeah i wasnt angry

[waxen frigate]

Time honored warrior tradition

Autism

[waxen orbit]

Send cheat death

For sure

[blazing condor]

yeah you end up doing 300k+ dps when you have branch in your opening

always top those meters

[waxen orbit]

Also my 27 Throne got bricked first pull because ranged Dps don’t know how to kite dogs

And they died

And the pull lived too long

3500 mage player btw

[lusty grotto]

there's an issue with recommending cheat on this discord, its cause lurkers assume its a top pick for their content level, that's why i mentioned the caveats

[waxen orbit]

Ah fair

[lusty grotto]

because wearing cheat is technically a dps loss

[waxen orbit]

Yeah if you’re doing below 24s

You shouldn’t need it

[lusty grotto]

which amounts to threat loss

which is a recurring question here

[waxen orbit]

If you do, that’s okay, everyone starts somewhere

But like

[waxen orbit]

This

Is why

Threat this patch is already turbo fucked up

[blazing condor]

its no problem if you wanna wear a cheat death in any content as long as youre aware that its not optimal/needed

[lusty grotto]

[blazing condor]

whatever floats

[waxen orbit]

Unless you’re proccing your cheat as an extra defensive and getting that fat 3300 haste for 12 seconds

Then maybe there’s some room for dam potential

[lusty grotto]

yeah no issue using it, as long as you understand the pros and cons

[blazing condor]

thats exactly why i proc

[waxen orbit]

Because of the wiggle room you get

If you have to use it in raid though then someone is doing something horribly wrong

Either you or (unsurprisingly) your healers

[waxen frigate]

It’s fine to use for the first parts of progging a mythic boss imo

But if you’re wearing it the whole time yea

[waxen orbit]

I agree with that

[lusty grotto]

yeah

[waxen orbit]

If you gotta wear it after the first kill

Something is terribly wrong

[lusty grotto]

totally fine for a first time on an unfamiliar content level

[waxen frigate]

I don’t even mean first kill I mean like

[lusty grotto]

after you find out you dont reliably need it you can make adjustments

[waxen frigate]

Your first few pulls of Smolderon to realize “oh the tankbuster fucks but nothing else in the fight does anything”

[waxen orbit]

Big spell block and external calls

I’m gonna trial with a guild because the one I was pushing with up to Nymue had

Very dire healer affix and didn’t allow me to actually play the game at max efficacy

Hoping I actually get to experience Smolderon

Speaking of which

Look at my boy’s UI

[torn gulch]

wtf

[lusty grotto]

lol ive seen this on a stream before

i think max showed it

[blazing condor]

reminds me of the wf raider who had that my little pony UI

back in the day

[strong forum]

I remember this UI from BFA

[lusty grotto]

yeah its pretty old

[strong forum]

Or was it last season for the combust UI?

Hmmm

[lusty grotto]

idk it was a mage for sure

[strong forum]

It was in UR

[lusty grotto]

i just remember max going over it

[strong forum]

So it could be bfa or df s2

[minor lion]

im rerolling to prot from fury, should I recraft my crafted pieces to crit haste from vers mast? I'm about 7k haste as-is already

using things like tott neck with haste gems though

[timber nest]

Vers crit might be better but it doesn’t t matter with that much haste

Sim it if your questioning

[sick sentinel]

should really get a newer cpu, but i got that instead

[urban portal]

Yogi got money

[grim furnace]

bummer cuz WoW needs a strong cpu, not a strong gpu

[urban portal]

Yogi doesn’t play wow

[timber nest]

He does, he just rage quits doing 15s

[blazing condor]

its interesting how hard the earth-beams are for ppl in Fall

the most free dungeon timer wise and still ppl throw there

[torn gulch]

i got a mythic ursine i remember it being bugged right?

or was that solved?

[toxic pewter]

its solved now

was fixed like 3 weeks ago or something

[sick sentinel]

your right, i play nintendo games and genesis in this case https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcLLknHavng

go to 48:30 if you want to see easy mode cinematic style game play, don't skip th cutscenes

this game is, so hard,

[urban portal]

i dont trust your definition of hard

[sick sentinel]

to that i say

fuck about, find out

[toxic pewter]

that wat she said

[sick sentinel]

good fuckin luck if you decide to play it

[hollow sun]

After playing xcom 2 I have re-evaluated my definition of hard

[dusky canopy]

someday I'll time a DHT

[opaque quest]

Step 1. Uninstall wow

Step 2. Get addicted to MHW again

Step 3. ???

Step 4. Have fun in a game that respects your time

No need to sweat in M+ dungeons with sub humans that do 50k dps and dont know what a personal is

[sick sentinel]

dont know what a kick is

[urban portal]

Are you playing with the mod

Ice mod

It’s really fun

[opaque quest]

Yeah

I do

[urban portal]

Nice

Lmk if you wanna play

Did you start new file

[opaque quest]

I did a few weeks ago. But im basically fully decked out in fatalis/at velkhana

[urban portal]

Beast

I’m contemplating on playing current vs new file

[opaque quest]

I tried to play my old char but i was lost and had to relearn basically everything so new save it was

I lied btw. Turns out im not using ICE at the moment cause i played with a friend earlier. I usually do tho

Do you only with with ICE? Or is it 50/50

[sick sentinel]

doom with rtx is really good

[opaque quest]

Nice. Only kills your FPS by 80% for 5% better graphics

Worth it

[lusty grotto]

well knowing yogi hes playing OG doom

[sick sentinel]

i mean, i literally got a 4070 now

so,

[lusty grotto]

so its not like it wont run at 5k fps

garbage gpu

waste of money

[sick sentinel]

ran at 1600 fps in the intro movies

[waxen frigate]

Only 1600 lmao

[sick sentinel]

are you team red gpu?

[lusty grotto]

no

[sick sentinel]

oh

[lusty grotto]

but team red is better bang for the buck

and im probably gonna swap after my 3070 dies

[sick sentinel]

gpu is gpu, as long as it does job is good

[lusty grotto]

right, except you decided to pay 200 more for the same

for the brand basically

[sick sentinel]

200 more for 200 fps

sounds like fair trade to me

[dusky canopy]

spoke to soon, just got the 23dht in the bag >:)

[lusty grotto]

[dusky canopy]

Nim tank liked me haha

[lusty grotto]

nice

[dusky canopy]

wyd

[lusty grotto]

now come dps my pally's vault key

[dusky canopy]

sure ill do a vault key quick before i dip

inv

[lusty grotto]

lol

its a 21 actually

nobody is queueing for it

[opaque quest]

Im a big fan of bang for your buck

So right now its team red

[dusky canopy]

absolutely NOT

[opaque quest]

Might be team green in the future but unlikely

[dusky canopy]

do NOT go team read

i just dealth with crashing issues on a 7900xtx for the last 4 months

apparently its a known issue with amd and direct x12

for WoW

[opaque quest]

I did the same for the last 3 years. Turns out it was my 24 pin Mainboard cable

AMD is finnicky. Might be the GPU might not be the GPU

[lusty grotto]

my friends havent had issues since they swapped

[opaque quest]

Since i threw out my sleeves all my issues went away too

[dusky canopy]

yeah bro the 7900xtx was the 2nd amd card ive ever owned

and it will be the last

unless they do some ground breaking tech

[lusty grotto]

hard to justify nvidia prices

[opaque quest]

^

[lusty grotto]

im sorry to say

[opaque quest]

Groundbreaking tech. You mean like FSR3?

kekw

[dusky canopy]

I agree wholeheartedly

nvida price gouges like crazy

but their shit works 100% of the time

thats worth it for me

[opaque quest]

Nvidia isnt without problems either. A friend has a 4080TI and he cant play DX12 games

[lusty grotto]

i mean nvidia had a year and half long absolute garbage drivers last year

[opaque quest]

100 of the time. Ah yes. Cause if you google 4080 w/e problems you wont get results

[lusty grotto]

crashed everything for me, at least every game that was slightly demanding

[opaque quest]

702k results

100% of the time baby

[sick sentinel]

i paid about on par or less than msrp

[opaque quest]

On AMD its 200k results

[lusty grotto]

if you go to the nvidia subreddit, they usually review drivers

[opaque quest]

100% of the time babey

[dusky canopy]

LOL

google statistics gang

[opaque quest]

idk man 3 times the results is alot

Even IF 50% are shit its still fucked

[dusky canopy]

well thats simply sample size dif

[waxen frigate]

^

[opaque quest]

You can go and buy w/e GPU you want. But saying Nvidia never has problems is objectively wrong

[dusky canopy]

in my use case

every nvidia card since the 780ti has been butter

[waxen frigate]

Well that’s an anecdote

:^)

[opaque quest]

Sample size of 5 cards

Truly good data

[lusty grotto]

ive been team nvidia since before 3dfx existed

and trust me when i say

[opaque quest]

I only had Nvidia before my 5700xt

[dusky canopy]

I mean this whole conversation ive been talking about my experince have i not?

[lusty grotto]

last year was absolute FUCKING GARBAGE on drivers, and it lasted a while

[dusky canopy]

you can do whatever you want

I just recommend against team red based off my experiences

[lusty grotto]

and again their prices are just ridiculous

[opaque quest]

So because you had a bad experience nobody should buy team red

Makes sense

Im out

[dusky canopy]

I gave recommendations based off my experience

seems reasonable

[lusty grotto]

objectively speaking its just better to buy the bang for the buck

and honestly amd cards dont have vram shortages

[dusky canopy]

24gb vram is wild

haha

[lusty grotto]

which of you chads wanna tank this 21 EB

[ashen coral]

Is there another toy other than worn doll which allows to extend the duration of the signet ? One is already cool but if there are several of them it would be better

[lusty grotto]

its the only one that works

[opaque quest]

no turnip?

https://tenor.com/view/meme-angry-punho-fechado-de-gif-26104429

[lusty grotto]

you cant summon turnip inside a key

[pallid quiver]

maybe with a little bit of cheat engine

[lusty grotto]

or any punching bag aside from doll, for that matter

[opaque quest]

I could use the DPS as punching bags tho

Cheating the system

[lusty grotto]

heh

if only

[opaque quest]

They would see what real dps is

[opaque quest]

https://tenor.com/view/heavybreathing-cat-gif-6111353

Need to see if the scaling is shit in TW and kill some ppl

[median tulip]

I was Arms for that patch, and that was a great fight to be Venthyr Arms on. An entire boss fight made up of nothing but execute phases.

[sick sentinel]

for a long time in SL i was using this trinket

[opaque quest]

God i loved nathria

Whole expansion shouldve been denathrius

Instead of* nipple smurf

[sick sentinel]

budget worse chains

[median tulip]

100% - Daddy D was a quality bad guy with excellent voice acting

[opaque quest]

Remornia was amazing too. They killed it

[sick sentinel]

all it had to be

was denathrius is the jailers side kick

and hes a little dumb

and the jailer is even dumber

and then, he attacks, and then we go in and we kill him like saturday cartoon

[opaque quest]

Na jailer shouldnt have existed

[median tulip]

The Jailer was Denathrius' sidekick, you mean

[opaque quest]

No jailer no arthas murder

[median tulip]

Denathrius manipulating the fuck out of everyone, up to and including the Jailer

[sick sentinel]

they could always go back and make the jailer cool again

[median tulip]

Would have been a much better plot than the Jailer being behind anything. Denathrius actually had connection to the ongoing story with the Dreadlords and everything

[sick sentinel]

i don't know if the jailer lore ties into any other deep wow lore like the sword, or time magic, or the dragons

[opaque quest]

I dont think they can make the jailer cool. Even if they did nobody would take him ever seriously agian

[sick sentinel]

if the lore fits, could shoehorn something in, but if its just 1 quest don't bother

[opaque quest]

Pretty sure they got into the SL situation BECAUSE of the shoehorning with Sylvanas and Arthas

[cosmic wyvern]

so is it better to go all in on haste/crit or haste/vers

or have a bit of a split

I have more vers on gear (except my neck which has a shit ton of crit) but I use haste/crit gems and have my crafted pieces with haste/crit

[toxic pewter]

@warm plinth

[warm plinth]

[waxen frigate]

Second to remornia

My queen

[waxen frigate]

What sword

[warm plinth]

I'm assuming he means Sargeras' sword?

[cinder pasture]

Clearly talking about [Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker]

[opaque quest]

Turns out Yogi likes em big

Im happy with flat remornia

[toxic pewter]

shadowlands was such a great xpac

miss those days

[strong forum]

shut

mouf

[toxic pewter]

lol wat why

[blazing condor]

Soul of Argus is what upset the entire order of shadowlands cus it RKO’d the arbiter

So its a connection

[strong forum]

SL was only "good" after you had double leggo and tierset

[toxic pewter]

lol

[strong forum]

in 9.1 it was alright

[blazing condor]

9.1.5 made it worth

But that was also 1 year into the xpac

[strong forum]

yeah

[toxic pewter]

ok yeah the 2nd half of sl was better i cant deny it but I actually liked the lore and stuff in sl too I know i am one of few

[strong forum]

one of maybe like 12

[toxic pewter]

ya

[blazing condor]

Idk shadowlands was objectively ass but it was also the xpac i did the most in and had a lot of fun raiding and doing m+

[toxic pewter]

i thought the jailer was pretty cool tbh they just didnt go all in on him

[blazing condor]

Didnt do last raid

[strong forum]

i played alot more BFA than SL

[blazing condor]

I went ham in SoD mostly

[strong forum]

but SL had 5tank

and thats what saved SL for me

[grim furnace]

all of SL was borderline fan service and then they did a rug pull for the end

[strong forum]

and now i blast as arms

and shotcall

[blazing condor]

Also superior playstyle for prot

Not that its that bad rn

[strong forum]

peak pwar

it will never be as fun again

[blazing condor]

🔫

[toxic pewter]

i think we can all agree if they just made execute fun again like prot warr would be a lot more fun

[strong forum]

yes

[blazing condor]

Define fun execute

[strong forum]

rage refund, more dmg

[warm plinth]

I don't give a single fuck about execute tbh.

[toxic pewter]

its like 90% of what is unfun right now

lol

execute phase just suk ass

[blazing condor]

Execute feels like a waste to use

[toxic pewter]

and is awkward

[blazing condor]

Cus you might as well spend rage on ip to reset rend

[strong forum]

meanwhile arms

goes into overdrive

like prot did in SL

[blazing condor]

If i get leggo imma go arms

[toxic pewter]

what if colossus makes execute great again

[grim furnace]

wtb Gladiator Stance for Prot again

[blazing condor]

Sit back and relax and let others tank

[grim furnace]

lets us dps when offtanking in raids

[toxic pewter]

we already do lol

we do big dam

[grim furnace]

not enough imo

[toxic pewter]

oh u mean like more dam like an actual dps

is that what glad stance did or wat

i never played it

[grim furnace]

glad stance was comparable to dps dmg

if played well

[toxic pewter]

i see

[warm plinth]

You couldn't swap in/out of glad stance in combat though could you?

[grim furnace]

but even though u had a shield and defensive talents, u fell like a sack of potato if u had agro

[toxic pewter]

yeah how did switching to/from it work exactly

[grim furnace]

yeah, u were locked in to glad stance until combat was over

[toxic pewter]

ok interesting

[grim furnace]

if they let us do Glad Stance/Defensive stance, it'd really perk up the spec imo

[toxic pewter]

have a feeling colossus will focus on execute, at least I hope

[onyx matrix]

Glad stance was king! I miss it so much with bonus armor

[lusty grotto]

oh boy

[opaque quest]

Glad stance was so bad numbers wise

I still played it apart from btucher progress cause i couldnt hit the minimum dps required

[west walrus]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/800894325525315624/1190078156628054117/image.png?ex=65a07da7&is=658e08a7&hm=381a499abc721e61b2f07bb0030b0de2cfd7d1d4d85d65998fbbe52430bb546a&

[opaque quest]

[strong forum]

Huh

That

Now that you mention it

Now I remember it being reflectable

[sick sentinel]

do you reflect the red or the gold beam

[strong forum]

Gold

Red only happens when you have blood soaked

Also it only works on the adds

Not on the boss

You gotta use it before the channels happens on you

Otherwise SR is wasted

[sick sentinel]

so glad we didnt get KR back as a key

whole thing is terrible

[strong forum]

Nobody wants KR back

I think blizz is awarw

Or rather... Pray

[sick sentinel]

every single trash pack and boss could destroy a pug group

[pallid quiver]

bring back all the terrible dungeons while i'm not playing

[sick sentinel]

legion kara is a nighmare

to be on a timer

[lusty grotto]

i want it back

should be easy with spell block now

zul? more like get blocked nerd

blizzard puts KR back, "Zul's spell are not spell reflectable"

[strong forum]

Zuls attack left a dot

The dot is what fucked you the most

And dots aren't really blockable

[lusty grotto]

well most of them arent but what if

also we didnt have SR lasting after a reflect back then either

id be more worried about first boss without safeguard tbh

and last boss without brage

lol

[winter shard]

hey guys, new tank back again. what is the best way to gain aggro on the adds quickly on first boss of throne? dps tends to start hammering it and i get a little panicked charging around

[lusty grotto]

you only need to get agro on the 3 mobs

[frigid garnet]

taunt mele one rush to one caster retaunt another caster or throw

[lusty grotto]

the jumpy murlocs dont do shit

[winter shard]

ah ok, thank you guys

the dps either tell me i'm going too fast or too slow in keys i can't seem to find a pace they like, any tips?

[grim pilot]

Most importantly

Taunt guard asap

[lusty grotto]

on fort weeks you go at the pace of your healer's mana

[grim pilot]

Then u can do tc for small mobs and heroic theow 1 mob while going to 2nd mob

[frigid garnet]

as dps listen tank u are main guy in dungs

[lusty grotto]

just pause for mana and you'll be fine

its a timer, you dont have time to afk and fuck around

[winter shard]

that's what i've been doing, but there's always one dude telling me to "go" or pinging me as i wait for mana

[lusty grotto]

just ignore

[winter shard]

thanks for the tips

[lusty grotto]

either way thats just practice

we cant tell you for sure

we have different speeds in this channel, depending on key level and what our groups can do

[winter shard]

sometimes i'm waiting for affix debuff to drop before pulling and the same mage that didn't decurse is pinging me to pull

[grim pilot]

Yeah honestly u need experience

[lusty grotto]

i wouldnt stop for affix

honestly

[winter shard]

if i can ask one more question and for reference i'm hovering around 18s, i'm popping SW for dogs in throne and still dipping a lot, should i leap out to reset or just pop last stand after SW?

[lusty grotto]

hows your crit

because you can parry those hits

[winter shard]

28%

[lusty grotto]

and obviously youre not a dwarf

[winter shard]

no unfortunately

[lusty grotto]

also what would last stand do

[grim pilot]

Try to kite

[lusty grotto]

thats not the cd you should be looking at

demo is

[grim pilot]

When you get some stacks p

Like 10 lets say

To be safe

[winter shard]

i usually pop demo on pull should i be holding it for stacks?

[lusty grotto]

at 10 stacks they should be fixating

[grim pilot]

Shockwave and run away for few sec

[lusty grotto]

so idk

[grim pilot]

Ye I mean that was just a ref point

If theyre not fixated

And you have 10+ stacks

U can shockwave and leap away

[lusty grotto]

that pack needs to be deleted, if it isn't you have bad dps

[winter shard]

ok so 10 is the benchmark to be resetting?

[lusty grotto]

no

it depends on your gear

[grim pilot]

Not really

Just a rule of thumb

If you dont know how much u can handle

[winter shard]

it depends on the group sometimes it's not even an issue othertimes i'm clenching

[lusty grotto]

whatever amount will depend on your character

[grim pilot]

U can track their offensive cds

And pull around that

[lusty grotto]

yeah

[grim pilot]

Its a pretty hefty pack

So they will want their cds there

So they can do more dam

[winter shard]

i've tried pulling the dogs alone but i always get pinged to pull w the 3 casters as well so i'm never sure what to do there

[lusty grotto]

either is fine

[grim pilot]

Pull it alone

You said youre doing 18’s

Do what you feel is better rn

[lusty grotto]

if youre struggling with just dogs, yeah id say pull them solo

[grim pilot]

18’s are soooooooo freeee timer wise

Unless you chain wipe

[winter shard]

i'm just trying to get my bearings but i keep getting spam pinged, my main is 2800 for reference right now so i know routes, they just don't allow me the space to learn

[grim pilot]

That has been the case with every dungeon on +20 since week 1 of this tier

[winter shard]

no wipes or deaths i just struggle with the dogs

[lusty grotto]

pints dont mean anything

you arent required to follow them

when they make sense, you follow them

[winter shard]

i don't it just puts so much pressure on me

[lusty grotto]

when they dont, you dont

its not pressure at all

learn to filter it out

[toxic pewter]

probably best to turn off chat and pings and crap

[winter shard]

thank you all very much for the help ,i appreicate it

[lusty grotto]

i wouldnt say turn off pings

just need to learn to filter out whatever is happening

[grim pilot]

Ignore it most of the time

[winter shard]

the only time i've run into a major issue is when i've let them dictate something, i very rarely have died

[grim pilot]

Pings are ok

If someone points out youre standing in shit

Or about to get hit by frontsl that can be avoided

[lusty grotto]

this is not a true or false thing

its not ignore everything or ignore nothing

some (even toxic) criticism is worth following up on

[winter shard]

i haven't really been criticized or given any advice, it's someone saying something they believe is true but isn't. last night i was stopping to let healer get mana in atal and a mage ass pulled and the rogue told me i need to learn to stop for mana

those things make it frustrating as my intent was to stop for mana lol

or getting pinged randomly

[grim pilot]

I would just tell him off

I get super frustrated

At shit like that

When someone else fucks up and I get blamed

I just go ape shit mode

[winter shard]

i thought about it but wanted to keep the peace

[toxic pewter]

switch your chat to combat log

turn off chat bubbles

turn off ping system

go off the grid

if anyone has any feedback they can whisper u

[lusty grotto]

thats bad advice

[winter shard]

i downloaded omnicd tracker but i can't even get the menu to come up with the command, is there another addon i have to use with it?

[lusty grotto]

no

did you download the right one

its omniCD not omniCC

[winter shard]

Yeah it's CD, i type the command and nothing happens. I also don't see anything tracked on party frame

[lusty grotto]

ive no idea, that's never happened to me

[winter shard]

fixed, it was turned off for some reason in addons.

thanks again everyone for your help

[toxic pewter]

anyone know if avatar increases shield charge damage if I press avatar mid shield charge

[lusty grotto]

it shouldnt

well, more specifically it would depend on server ticks

probably best to avatar before

[toxic pewter]

agreed

[warm plinth]

using shield charge outside melee range 👀

[toxic pewter]

just more curious about how it works if anything

[pallid quiver]

i get knocked back sometimes in world content or by like a storming

It happens

I just take the free oGCD benefit when it happens

Like I was already pressing the button, I guess I'm charging with it now

[teal swift]

Whos ready for weeb warrior

in WW :kekw:

[placid frigate]

still gearing up, best to do defensive stance or battle in M+?

[pallid quiver]

Treat Def Stance as another defensive CD

pop it if you need it, otherwise you're in Battle

[placid frigate]

Sweet

[pallid quiver]

In M+, you don't need it literally at all until you're above 20s

[teal swift]

You have two choices.

Camp d stance and be a god
Use battle stance for like 8% more damage.

In almost all key levels it won't matter.

I camp d stance in m+

Because I don't need to do damage. I need to pull and not die. Even if I massively misplay. Pugs leave less if you don't wipe.

[placid frigate]

Makes sense

[teal swift]

Optimally, you'll send battle stance and do giga damage like critcake

But if you're just doing weekly 18-22 keys

Doesn't matter

20% Dr permanently is kinda huge

[novel temple]

Or just stay in battle stance and swap to def stance for big mechanics

The faster everything dies, the less damage you’re dealt.

[teal swift]

Flawed mental

Just sit in defensive, have healer spam heal you

Be immortal and have dps kill things

Damage isn't an issue

I'll camp in dstance in m+

No reason not to

[novel temple]

That’s the flawed mental. Just letting the healer spam heal you

Does that mean you’re not pressing shield block or ignore pain?

[teal swift]

Hold W, be unkillable

Get a cheat deathtrinket

Get rage heart

Hold W never die, watch Netflix, misplay as much as you want

Still never die

And do 18-22 weekly keys

With a skill floor so low

You don't even need insulation.

And still somehow be in the top like 5% of players doing m+ lol

[brave jetty]

is it just me or has the quality of PUGs in M+ completely fallen off a cliff the last two weeks?

[teal swift]

What key level

Anything 20 and below is dog water weekly keys

[brave jetty]

22-24 range

[teal swift]

I'm not sure then, I just do dog water weekly.keys, no reason to push for awhile yet

[brave jetty]

I'm talking people that don't know basic boss or trash mechs, the classic DH / Ret pally with 3 interrupts by the end of the run, etc.

[pallid quiver]

Usually by this point in a season, most people still playing are returning players who don't know dungeons, people playing alts, people who eventually got carried up, and other similar scenarios. There's a lot more players around at higher levels, so you're more likely to run into oh no times in pugs

[grim pilot]

Man

Ive had a 3.3k duo in 25 fall

Aug stood in slow with debuff and almost wiped us TWICE in a row

Mw didnt dispel at all

[ionic fern]

That's the "I KNOW EVERYTHING !!!!!!!!!!!!" range.

[grim pilot]

We just got gangbanged with debuffs

[pallid quiver]

It'll cycle through over time, though, as the competent players get used to new classes, though the bad seeds will stay there forever

[brave jetty]

23 AD earlier, our DH dies to the earliest possible spider on last boss, gets brezzed, immediately runs into another spider. Gets brezzed again later, alive for a good 10s before dying to another spider.

[pallid quiver]

yeah this part is real bad about that range

[teal swift]

Spiders are kinda hard as a dh

[pallid quiver]

As soon as some people clear 20s, they think they've like, 100% cleared the game and the other players are just obstacles to their success

[teal swift]

It's probably the only part thing about playing a dh

[grim pilot]

Dont play dh

[teal swift]

Is not Inting with momentum

[pallid quiver]

If you ever have an inkling someone is like this before starting a key, just leave

[brave jetty]

I refuse to believe that dying 3x in the same pull to the same mech is not a player issue

[teal swift]

It is, but it's easier to die as a dh

Than any other class

Because needing to use felrush for momentum is fucking jank

[brave jetty]

I get it, but I assume by that point you're aware of how your character moves and plays with respect to hazards in the world

[teal swift]

True,

But it's also. Dh

So you get 3kio

For breathing

[pallid quiver]

maybe i'll come back before season's over to get 2k even zzzzzzz

or more portals or something

[restive scroll]

Might be worth a pin, that's a pretty nice recap of current trinket state!

[modern zephyr]

What's up y'all total noob to DF and tanking here but gonna try maiming prot bc yolo

I've never used macros before but are there any that are a must have?

[pallid quiver]

There's literally zero that are a must have for Prot, only 1 that's recommended, and 2 others potentially for convenience

The 1 that's recommended is to replace your IP bind with
/cast Ignore Pain
/cast Shield Slam

Helps you snipe resets as you go to press IP

The 2 others for convenience are cursor/player macros for Ravager so it's more convenient to just use

The former removes a second click to cast and the latter lets you auto-place it at your feet

[grim pilot]

Rather than that IP bind I would recommend stance dance more

[pallid quiver]

oh

i forgot that's a macro

yeah that's a second recommended one

[modern zephyr]

Oh dang thanks y'all will check those out

[pallid quiver]

Those two recommended ones should be in pins

[modern zephyr]

Had no idea stance dancing was a thing... been using defensive stance only

[pallid quiver]

It's not as bad as it used to be as a DPS loss, but you don't need the DR all the time. If you don't need the DR, you might as well do more damage

[modern zephyr]

Got it! Will play around with stance dancing then

[teal swift]

True and factual.

But its also just kinda okay to do whatever in most levels of content

people focus far too much on the little things

and less on the big things

clean good routing

will time 1000% more keys, than minmaxing tank dps

[tribal cave]

You guys think a 476 Gholak is better than a 483 Volcoross's Barbed Fang?

[teal swift]

Yes

[tribal cave]

Damn you're helping me everywhere I look

[teal swift]

476 gholak > 489

[pallid quiver]

Once you have normal Gholak, your only upgrades are better Gholaks

[teal swift]

My 463 lfr gholak sims about the same as 480-483 ilvl

You can consider gholak effect +20ilvl

Or so

[tribal cave]

Neat. Thank you guys! I didn't know if the raw STR of a higher ilvl was superior

[pallid quiver]

The thing about Gholak is it has a damage proc and stats

Most weapons with a proc sacrifice the stats for the proc

gholak did a little bit of bribery in the blizz office so it has both, so it's mega over budgeted

[tribal cave]

Think I should put Shadowflame Wreathe on it or stick to Sophic for universal goodness?

[pallid quiver]

Usually at this point, Wafting Dev is best, but that's a sim question

[tribal cave]

Every time I try to sim myself Raidbots tells me they don't support me :c

[pallid quiver]

Read the full message; it can't sim for defensiveness, not that simming for defensiveness would be conducive to anything

Almost all defensive modifiers and ability comes from using your abilities properly, with differences you can do stat-wise being entirely negligible, so it's why we sim for most things

On top of that, how defensive something is and best defensive performance depends heavily on damage profiles (how damage is coming in, what kind of damage it is, how frequently, etc)

[tribal cave]

So simming is still worth it to see damage but it won't be able to sim something's defensive value because that's largely up to me, more or less?

I have that issue with trinkets. I have like 4 really good trinkets but can never figure out which are best to have on deck for tanking

[teal swift]

Tanks don't need to consider defensive stat itemization

So it's entirely irrelivant

Just sim for dps

[tribal cave]

Huh. Neat. I've played Prot casually when my guild needed it but this is my first time diving into prot properly for endgame, I've usually just winged it

[pallid quiver]

Trinkets are kinda funny; we actually have access to some decent defensive trinkets, but they're either free defensive benefit while using it for damage or something that gives literally 0 value unless you plan around it specifically (Cheat Death)

You'd be fine just defaulting to whatever trinkets sim the best for damage (except Signet Brand kinda, because unless you sim around its stack uptime, it'll look like poo-poo even though it's a mega strong trinket)

[tribal cave]

Yeah I've got signet brand but I switch off of it for keys. Nothing feels worse than watching 15 stacks die because the healer needed mana or someone was running back lol

[teal swift]

If you're trying to squeeze the haste out of the cheat death tri ket

It's giga shit

Lmao

8 minute cooldown on some haste lul

Since I don't do content that is demanding

I just play like an absolute turtle

Gimme cheat death trinkrt

[tribal cave]

I've got a heroic Signet Brand, heroic Gnarlroot Branch, a 483 Sandglass, and a 476 Pips. I usually run the first two

[teal swift]

And full-time dstance etc

[pallid quiver]

tell your healers to learn that it's fine to sit and drink, you ain't gonna explode

dps might if they don't press interrupts but that's on them

I agree with you on that on a practical level, though, especially with pugs

[tribal cave]

I mostly pug so it's always a mixed bag lol

[pallid quiver]

they sometimes just like

demand you stay still for zero reason

I've had healers up and leave keys because I kept pulling when they needed mana

they were also packs i could solo, so, like, they could have just got mana

but they opted to instead throw a temper tantrum

pugs do pugs

[tribal cave]

Can't fix em lol

Wafting simmed for 1k higher than Sophic and Shadowflame, neat.

So would you guys say it's best to always be in Fury loot spec for Fyrakk? Can still get lego but if an H Gholak drops, can roll on it. If I'm in prot, lego isn't lootable according to WoWhead

[pallid quiver]

Lego's personal loot

so you get it even in prot

[tribal cave]

Ah. So it's really just whether you want a chance at the tank trinket or the DPS one, then?

[teal swift]

@pallid quiver your pfp makes me smile

It's always so cute

[pallid quiver]

Rageheart's also a good trinket that likely has less competition than Augury, as well, though Augury does more damage

[teal swift]

Ty for existing weeb warrior

[tribal cave]

Weebior

[teal swift]

[tribal cave]

Do I count for having a pfp of Shinji throwing a bottle at Asuka?

[teal swift]

You had to explain what it was

Cause I had no idea LOL

[blazing condor]

You definitely count

Most based pfp in here

[tribal cave]

:3

[chilly brook]

Who and who?

[tribal cave]

Oh I KNOW you aren't a weebior

[ionic fern]

[jagged pier]

[tribal cave]

Right after this I got a better Gholak lol. This discord blessed me tonight

No legendary, but having my BiS on prot is an acceptable consolation

[blazing condor]

now you gotta get mythic

[tawdry dirge]

why are so many using the bracer emelish with versa in m+?

[strong forum]

Dps mains

[tawdry dirge]

for the group?

ahhh fair play

[strong forum]

The group doesn't get vers from it

You get vers from it

[tawdry dirge]

ohh okay i dont know that embelish much since i run shadowflame all the way

[strong forum]

Yeah it's like 200 dps better for dps players to run vers bracers

And we all know dps players think 20dps is like 10%

[tawdry dirge]

maybe for some it is if i would be dps player i guess it could be 10% increase 😄

[grim pilot]

That’s not true

For me 20 dps is like 8%

[strong forum]

You must be owning

[grim pilot]

I do indeed

[bronze pasture]

anyone here that doesn't skip the 2 bears before 1st boss in DHT on fort week?

[strong forum]

It the key is low enough

On higher keys it's just suicide to play the bears just before a boss

[blazing condor]

damn bricked my 25 AD on the last boss

[sick sentinel]

just wait till its tyranical

now invite pugs

lemme know how it goes,

[blazing condor]

well its a tank fight when it comes down to it

but you need a team that stacks and moves together

[flat bramble]

how you skip ? invis ?

[bronze pasture]

usually shroud

but also warlock gate

[flat bramble]

you can gate to the green wall, no aggro and trigger the unlock ?

great to know

[bronze pasture]

basically gate to the right of them yeah

[strong forum]

Warrior can also just leap there onto the branch

You never need to use invis pot there as warrior

[blazing condor]

is it viable to pull the extra augur + Juggernaut in AD if you go left with BL first pull

and take those in the corner

[strong forum]

If you have the necessary cc, yes

[blazing condor]

since its a pretty good timer i dont wanna overpull for no reason

but also sucks to have 2 mobs left to do

[strong forum]

It's either those 2

Or an extra bird pack

They give the same count

[blazing condor]

just tryna optimise the route a little

in the 25 i did the group struggled with pulling the 2 extra stalkers on the right side

[strong forum]

This is exactly 100% count

And also old bfa route

[blazing condor]

you doing middle dinosaur pack?

[strong forum]

Yeah it's free

[blazing condor]

otherwise thats not 100% for updated count

yeye

[pallid quiver]

Middle dino pack is probably the easiest trash in the dungeon based on pug deaths/responses to all other trash

[strong forum]

All that has to be done is kill monzumi first and the healer to heal 3 ticks of the aoe each time

[blazing condor]

ppl just never did the dino pack

but now that its nerfed

its free

maybe even was back then as well idk

ive never done it lol

[echo egret]

How do you skip the saurids after Rezan ?

[blazing condor]

probably go up where the 2 birds are

then hug wall

[strong forum]

^

[toxic pewter]

do you think pulling the 2 birds in with rezan is safe to do in a pug

cuz I often want to but not sure its good idea

[tawdry dirge]

with a pug i doubt it is a safe idea

some of pugs dont even talent in interrups 😄

[toxic pewter]

yeah prob just gonna continue to not do it

too risky

yeah atal dazar is a toss up if anyone has interrupts or aoe stuns or anything

[blazing condor]

the 24 went much better

middle pack was indeed very free

[grim pilot]

U’d be better just taking 2 packs of saurids

But if you’re scared and its forti u can take one

[blazing condor]

is there any way of knowing where witches will spawn each week in WCM

i know its on weekly rotations

but for like MDT

[grim pilot]

Wait its a weekly?

Lol

I just thought its rng

[echo egret]

I thought it was fixed, except when a certain world quest was messing things up

Or is that another dungeon

[strong forum]

Witches position spawn are weekly

But which witch you get is rng

Either etch or volley caster

Is rng

But positions rotate weekly

[grim pilot]

Oh

[rapid forum]

As someone who hasn't played prot since season 1. What are the best embellishments if we're speaking strictly pushing M+, like say 27s+. I've seen people are running anything from Lariat to shadowflame. I'll not be touching raid at all on this warrior outside of farming HC for weapon

[blazing condor]

top warrs run a little different things

but its usually 2x shadowflame

some go vers wrist, some go CR

one dude had lariat

it doesnt really matter super much

[restive scroll]

CR is always useful, but gotta want it.
Vers wrist is mostly to switch between specs
2x Shadowflame is the usual
AFAIK

[pseudo mango]

how many gems are needed that lariat is good?

[jagged pier]

its not good

[teal swift]

Sim it, answer is probably neber

[grim pilot]

Probably vers since it gives you def value + stat for aoe dam

[craggy pilot]

is it a good idea to track the new tierset somehow?

there is proc and buff to it, so i guess i could potentially track both of them 🤔

[jagged pier]

u just need to track the proc

[craggy pilot]

when i have a proc, do i wanna not spend rage until i spent the proc?

sounds a bit over the top i think

[jagged pier]

when u have the proc u SS

its really not hard

or anything to think about

[toxic pewter]

do you guys ever wait for SS proc when you have outburst

I guess what I mean is, is it proper to delay thunderclapping to wait for a SS reset when you have outburst

[opaque quest]

Outburst only with SS

In my books worth it to delay TC

[toxic pewter]

yeah but how long

like say i am low on rage and cant even revenge

so how many globals should i allow it

[opaque quest]

Interesting question. Never thought about it

Since i usually dont rage dump to 0

[jagged pier]

u wait like 2 globals

otherwise u just send

[toxic pewter]

Ok and fair enough i also am not that rage starved

but it can happen sometimes

[uneven mason]

You can wait a while in st

Ss hits so much harder than tc

[toxic pewter]

is it still worth it to wait the 2ish globals if the target also does not have rend on it due to me consuming a fervid

so im ragestarved, do have outburst, target not rended due to me ferviding it, and no SS reset yet

[uneven mason]

Trying to think of a situation where you would have used fevered but not consumed outburst with the ss that consumed ferved

I guess if you IP right after which pushed outburst?

[toxic pewter]

hmmm

[gilded rose]

huh

[uneven mason]

But if you've rage starved yourself with IP?

[gilded rose]

xeritac's dmg o.o

[uneven mason]

Yeah

Amazing how good something so bad can look when you're dropping all of your other damage by a idiotic amount by using a stam trinket

[toxic pewter]

yeah gotta take into account the lack of strength

[uneven mason]

Now imagine a world where you're using a trinket that not only does damage, but you boost everything else by 700str

[gilded rose]

it also did like 17% healing overall

hmm

is 700str that big

[uneven mason]

It also triggers after you take damage

Yes

700str would also increase your IP

[toxic pewter]

how much of that is overhealing just curious

[winged slate]

Your damage spread is wack mate

[uneven mason]

I wasn't even going to get into that

[gilded rose]

its brh

+22

last boss shenanigans

[winged slate]

I feel like you went afk and just pressed tclap to try and make that trinket look like it does something

[uneven mason]

Only pulled when Roar was off cd

[strong forum]

Gj, that trinket did 0% of your dmg compared to 800 str

[strong forum]

You basically got weaker equipping that trinket

It's not worth using just because it looks like it does something on details

Because this trinket made your other details bars smaller

[winged slate]

Also damage amps should be multiplying all of your damage proportionally, so it shouldn't fuck your spread

[gilded rose]

k

[uneven mason]

If I type out the chapter in my statistics textbook on opportunity cost, would someone pin it?

[plush tendon]

Remember details is wrong!...sometimes!

[plush tendon]

is that statistics or econ/business?

[uneven mason]

Both

[plush tendon]

Im about to dust off my prob stats text book to figure out when Im gonna get the lego

[uneven mason]

Right it was macroeconomics

Idk man it's been 25 years

[strong forum]

its really simple, you gave up 7% str, to gain a dmg bar that does 7% of your dmg (itll be smaller when you play better) so you effectivel gained nothing

[uneven mason]

What other trinket used to confuse people like this...codex?

[plush tendon]

well.. you also lost the value of a trinkets damage effect yea?

[strong forum]

now imagine that the str trinket you gave up also does dmg

which you lose ontop of that

so you just lost

[uneven mason]

[plush tendon]

stam trinkets are just such a outdated concept

which is funny cause they are really good in like wrath classic

[winged slate]

It's almost like stamina is not a super good stat

[uneven mason]

You mean back before we have tanks tools to manage their own survival and just left everything to rngesus and healers?

[plush tendon]

pretty much XD

[uneven mason]

So the only viable thing to do was to increase the amount of padding to buy healers time

It took them what, 6 expansions to get out of the EverQuest threat method?

Procs and debuffs

[winged slate]

Jokes on you I still make my raid wait for 3 sunders

[crystal mauve]

Are you guys able to pug 25+ as prot warrior? I feel like I'm speedrunning decline for hours...

[uneven mason]

You know my wife was trying to get me to play sod and one of her selling points was, "you can get devastate"

[strong forum]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1170056617606262804.webp?size=96&quality=lossless

[uneven mason]

That's like telling someone to go from driving a Camaro because this 92 Geo gets great milage

[plush tendon]

SoD is a real fun time ngl

BFD is like a 30min post raid adventure every 3 days

but Warrior is prob one of the classes least changed with runes (still absolute damage monsters though)

[uneven mason]

We don't get anything fun

Arms gets a hs replacement

[plush tendon]

You get Raging Blow, Quick Strike, and Enrage

[uneven mason]

But like the runes overall were very meh

[plush tendon]

but warrior is the one class in classic that already slams

[uneven mason]

Oh boy TC in defensive stance and devastate

[plush tendon]

TC still does piss all D:

but devastate is super good

[uneven mason]

It's basically "for warriors we're just going to give you these qol things we did in TBC"

Rogues and warlock get fuckin tank runes

Warriors get to be "future warriors"

At least it's the 2.3 devastate and not 2.0 devastate

Because you used to have to ramp sunders before you could devastate since devastate didn't add sunder stacks or refresh

When I pointed that out she was like "so play something else"

[plush tendon]

well the real new thing is the storing rage with consumed rage rune

and raging blow

you get to 80 rage and you just hover there the whole fight

and raging blow is another button you just press on CD

[charred ivy]

what trinkets u guys use for m+? i use fyrakk and ursine atm. but im not sure about ursin to be fair. Just use it cause idk what to use. i dont have augury,

[strong forum]

signet + fyrakk

[charred ivy]

is signet good for m+?

[strong forum]

if you know how to use it

[charred ivy]

even for fury ppl usually say better with stat one or so

[strong forum]

it shits on everything in the game

and its not even close

[grim pilot]

It’s good if you’re very confident

And can go pack to pack 24/7

Without waiting for mana or anything

But I wouldn’t recommend it for doti’s maybe idk

[charred ivy]

i dont tank so high keys so i guess possible xD

[grim pilot]

Not sure how it’s lookin there

[strong forum]

in high keys its just as viable if you dont do crazy skip routes

[warm plinth]

Trinkets like that are almost always better for tanks than dps because as the tank, you control the pace. As dps you're at the mercy of the tank's pulling.

[strong forum]

yeah

im starting to use signet less and less in some keys as dps

also as arms i just have less haste

[grim pilot]

Ye it seems pretty kekw

[strong forum]

so i get less value out of signet

[charred ivy]

u dont have augury. or signet still better btw?