protection

[warm plinth]

I'm meming btw

[uneven mason]

Also that was when in SL? yeah probably true statement

[warm plinth]

Why would you provide context

How am I supposed to meme Pika

[uneven mason]

Because I was interested in context

It tastes like Raspberry pie

[warm plinth]

You're ruining my life

[limpid estuary]

Interesting about Vers not being great defensively. I just took the mythic ouroboreal neck from my vault (it’s heavy vers with some crit).

I had been trying to get the nymue neck for all the crit but the ouroboreal neck summed way higher

[uneven mason]

It's not that it isn't good (all stats are good)
It's just that stacking vers will never make or break if you live

[modern gazelle]

Being the worst tank is good

Only uphill and buffs from here

[uneven mason]

it's a meme from back in "Look ma 100% Vers" BFA

[limpid estuary]

Sim bait do you think? I have barely any vers and quite a lot of haste/crit so maybe the first bit of vers is worth more

[warm plinth]

Offensively, crit/vers are most peoples' top two stats, so that's not surprising.

[limpid estuary]

Makes sense

[uneven mason]

It's not bait, all the stats are very close, so it can sim higher

hell mastery will pop up to the top if you ignore it enough

[limpid estuary]

It simmed like 700dps higher lol

[modern gazelle]

I take verse sockets cause it sims higher. I run mostly crit haste gear though so I need the verse from other sources

[uneven mason]

within margin of error

700DPS is a slim break

I just stack crit and haste

and don't sim

because I'm bad

(Or will never play at a level where it matters)

[modern gazelle]

Our damage will rarely matter tbh

Hence why I run rageheart and cheat death a lot of the time in high keys

[limpid estuary]

I started using cheat death in high keys and can’t live without it now

Especially last week with all the bolster one shots

[uneven mason]

4%

lets go

[modern gazelle]

Chest death saves runs fight me

[limpid estuary]

Raid I’m trying to run double dps trinkets to parse/do good damage

[modern gazelle]

A slower pack kill is better than a wipe

[limpid estuary]

Very true

[uneven mason]

It can't hurt you when its dead

[modern gazelle]

I sim 80-90 in mythic with rageheart and brand usually in d stance

[uneven mason]

"Except those fucking dogs in ToT"

[modern gazelle]

Rageheart for the dogs

[uneven mason]

TFW all of my alts have rageheart

and I don't

on my warrior

[strong forum]

I got one today

To use as arms

[frosty mango]

Prob your only option to stay alive past 25 on tyrannical as arms anyway

[strong forum]

That's quite stretch

[frosty mango]

Best option? Arms defensives are a little thin

[strong forum]

If a dps can live a 29 tyr, but one can't live a 25

Then something is seriously ducky

Dmg intake in a 29 is like 60% higher

Than in a 25

[frosty mango]

Unless something has changed there was only a small handful of arms wars with keys in the 26+ range

[strong forum]

Gelly does like 28s iirc

[warm plinth]

what's the average cd of TR with uproar?

[strong forum]

Nvm

[modern gazelle]

Tbh I think more dps should use rageheart

[strong forum]

Gelly didn't play alot it seems

[strong forum]

Eventually everyone will run it

[modern gazelle]

It’s damage is really good if you use it often and the defense is bonkers

[strong forum]

In ultra keys

There will be no way around it

Everyone will wear it

Dps and healer alike

[modern gazelle]

Yeah, surprised more don’t run it already though

[strong forum]

Well

[modern gazelle]

Like it’s so good damage wise it beats my brand half the time

[strong forum]

Kinda hard to get your hands on it lol

[strong forum]

Mainstat vs vers

[frosty mango]

I mean I play fury and 100% am fishing for it to use in 25+ keys - it’s an insanely good trinket

[modern gazelle]

Ye true

My guild has gotten like 4-5 drops of it lol

[strong forum]

I got lucky today in normal 🙏

[frosty mango]

Just saying for arms it’s got a lot of value imo because arms has a rough go on stronger defensives

[strong forum]

Oh yeah absolutely

[modern gazelle]

Nice I got omega lucky week 2 and got the heroic one

[strong forum]

But the statement that it's your only option to survive 25s

[modern gazelle]

Co tank got augury and I got rageheart week 2

[strong forum]

Is what I didn't like

[modern gazelle]

Yeah def not in a 25

[strong forum]

Also I do not think fueled by violence is the play

IP is still infinitely better

Even if it doesn't contribute dmg

Cuz it ykno, actually makes you tankier

[modern gazelle]

I do want to try the disrupting build though

See how I like it

[frosty mango]

If we’re talking running a defensive trinket as arms at 25+ then yea I think it’s prob the only option. Maybe hyperbole to say it’s required to stay alive tho ill agree there

[strong forum]

I'll defo get good use out of it in my EB 25

Xd

Just immune a fire salvo 🌟

Will be very comfy

[frosty mango]

I’m honestly kinda surprised it hasn’t been nerfed yet

[modern gazelle]

You can literally spam RH on cooldown and get huge damage and overall use out of it

[strong forum]

Well yeah

[modern gazelle]

Since it lasts 20s

[strong forum]

That's the optimal use

If you sit out on it outside of very specific bosses or moments

You're trolling

[modern gazelle]

I tend to save it a bit more in mythic raid and high keys personally cause I know I’ll need the defensive

[strong forum]

Also it's funny, now I have 2 permanent dots

[modern gazelle]

Like ToTT dogs

[strong forum]

Legendary + rage heart just permanently ticking

[pallid quiver]

He's become Fire Man from Mega Man

[frosty mango]

Prob enough to outdps some people in 15s

Walking simulator

[strong forum]

I don't doubt it

In a throne 21 we did

We had a boomkin who didn't use starfall

And only used incarn on bosses

[pallid quiver]

bosses scawy

[strong forum]

I almost beat him in overall as healer

[frosty mango]

“Holding” cds is kind of hallmark of inexperienced players

[pallid quiver]

Most people who play just have zero idea how the game even works or how to plan for it

[frosty mango]

Takes a bit before folks get experienced enough with the flow of pulls to know when to send and when to hold

[strong forum]

If in doubt

Just send

[frosty mango]

I’m a send supporter

Full send on cd and then if you pull a boss and your cds aren’t up, adjust next time

[pallid quiver]

Or even just go at the boss without cds

If you're getting full use of your CDs, it's fine

[strong forum]

If boss long enough you get 2-3 cds anyway

Doesn't matter if on pull or 30sec later if the total use of cds stays the same

[frosty mango]

Well you don’t really wanna be going into some of the tyrannical bosses with no cds but those use cases are pretty rare

[pallid quiver]

Like pugs eould rather have 3 lusts instead of 3 if it means they get it on boss instead of trash

It's "wasted" on trash in their eyes

[frosty mango]

Not lusting trash hurts

[strong forum]

I forgot to lust on oakheart today in dht so I just held until last boss

💀

Cuz lusting dresaron is troll

[frosty mango]

Sometimes your finger slips

And you hit drums

[strong forum]

I don't have it keybound

For a reason

[pallid quiver]

Sometimes your finger "slips", opens your bags, finds drums, clicks on drums

[frosty mango]

I have it keybound precisely for that reason

You don’t wanna lust the first trash pack in dht? Oops.

[strong forum]

Oh nah that's mandatory

Bear + everything

Send Lust + SLT

So you ignore cats

And just blast

[frosty mango]

Oh I accidentally threw an axe at the bear AND hit drums

Silly me

[strong forum]

Stg my group was too pussy to pull bear last week

Very sad

So we only did cats

[frosty mango]

Bear fine if you kill it

If you mongo adds and bolster it all to hell then it’s at 80% health then yea

Bolster is no big anyway except rise and fall trash some of that trash had me in d stance

Bolstered triple strikes that’s a no from me dog

[strong forum]

Tanking is extremely boring this season idk, I'm fulltime arms now

[frosty mango]

This season the timers are super lenient

You don’t need to trashgod mdi route to time so imo tanking just becomes “don’t die, do damage”

[strong forum]

Nah idk I think it's just... Easy? Maybe I need to do way higher keys as tank but everything was a snoozefest

And then you get EB 2nd boss perma panic

And back to snooze fest

[frosty mango]

Warrior is pretty sturdy, I’ve tanked up to the 23/24 range and it’s been largely simple

[strong forum]

Yeah like I did 23wcm last week felt like a +5

[frosty mango]

26 ish it prob starts getting interesting

[strong forum]

Same goes for brh

Feels like an m0

[frosty mango]

The EB council boss is easy if people play right

It’s that damn mage chick

She’s scary

[strong forum]

Eh

Spellreflect sw/spellblock and you're chillin

Pwar prolly the best tank by far for her

[pallid quiver]

Just play with shittier people, ez

(Just solo keys for the same effect)

[modern gazelle]

Only charge does damage on EB trio

Rest is free with reflect lol

[frosty mango]

It’s not a me staying alive problem on the mage boss lol

It’s the dps

[stuck basin]

just getting restartet on my warri - what embellishment do we build and where?

[strong forum]

Well yeah but that's not a you problem or has any effect on how pwar feels this season

[modern gazelle]

Also sisters reflects are FAT on WCM

I got a 1mil reflect on that the other day

[frosty mango]

Bolstered crushing depths

Big reflect

[strong forum]

Faq should have you covered #268491842637660160

[frosty mango]

eb council is much easier with a shaman healer bc they can get all the caster ints

Then all you do is reflect and make sure melee moves out for charge

But I’ve never found it bad unless the melee are dumb

[strong forum]

Only tanked EB twice in total

So can't really recall anything

[prime ridge]

I had all this pent up stress of starting to tank, since I never played the role at all before. Chose a Prot Warrior, used the xpac boost, and tried very low M+ and LFR.

Literally did a Pikachu face and started laughing

Instead of pressing buttons to make damage go up, you press buttons so health stays up

What was I scared about

[hollow sun]

You still press mostly buttons to make damage go up

While weaving some defensives in between 😄

[lusty grotto]

huh

[prime ridge]

Well, yes that too lol but you know, I really thought there was "more" to it

[lusty grotto]

you press buttons to make damage go up

NOT press buttons to make health go up

or am i missreading that

its literally the other way around

SS is your biggest damage button and youre fattest rage gen

[frigid garnet]

what stats do u stack guys ?

[lusty grotto]

haste

or

6th pinned post

[frigid garnet]

i am at 8000k haste +-

[lusty grotto]

ilvl > all though

youre not

youre buffed

[frigid garnet]

😄 i am not buffed

[lusty grotto]

link your armory

[frigid garnet]

https://raider.io/characters/eu/drakthul/Taurenn

[lusty grotto]

first of all

why do you have lariat

[frigid garnet]

just thiking that cap doesnt rly capping cos i was more mastery and have bigger problems on 24 but after i stack haste its easy

cos it works with my trinket

i mean i play war 5 days main dh

trying stuff

[lusty grotto]

2nd of all

YOURE BUFFED

[frigid garnet]

buffed by ?

[lusty grotto]

theres 0 way you have 8k haste with those items

[modern gazelle]

i would bet Into the fray lol

[frigid garnet]

trinket give me like 1.3k haste and neck proc with food enchant about 750

[lusty grotto]

trinket is a buff

you dont eat haste food

you eat STR food

that is also a buff

[frigid garnet]

naaa i dont like str

[lusty grotto]

you dont use lariat, you use the ones we have in #268491842637660160

you dont like having more armor and dps?

[frigid garnet]

well acording to logs i do 99-100% dmg than others wars

[lusty grotto]

into the fray is also a buff

[frigid garnet]

thats why i am asking if haste have cap on wars

[lusty grotto]

ok, tell me your unbuffed haste rating

cause your armory is literally not loading

[frigid garnet]

wdym not loading ?

[frigid garnet]

ye bug after vault

[lusty grotto]

ok so tell us your unbuffed haste

if you have 1 stack of ITF

you are buffed

click off food

take off trinket

[frigid garnet]

6896

unbuffed

[lusty grotto]

screenshot with buffs

[frigid garnet]

6791unbuffed

[lusty grotto]

even then youre well below the cap

which is my nickname

[frigid garnet]

well buffed over cap

[lusty grotto]

buffed doesnt matter

[frigid garnet]

u sure ?

return dont apply on buffed stats ?

[lusty grotto]

100% sure, ive been here since legion

[frigid garnet]

then its good that i eat haste food :}

[lusty grotto]

no, its not good

[modern gazelle]

if you are the best war why are you asking advice?

[frigid garnet]

so i can go more haste then 2items to go

thx for advice

i am not wtf 😄

didnt know that buffed haste isnt same as unbuffed doesnt count to cap

[pallid quiver]

It's because some haste buff sources are just flat bonus that ignore DR, like Into the Fray

So those get more benefit the more haste you have since they "cheat"

[frigid garnet]

ye i know that

like PI

[urban portal]

haste is also special

its multiplicative

[toxic pewter]

Wait isn’t howling rune included when talking about 7100 cuz I have my haste around 6800 plus howling rune I wear all the time

[lost wyvern]

in a +23 BRH on charge boss, will shield wall be enough if im taking a second stack?

[lusty grotto]

thats a buff apb

[lost wyvern]

i dont wanna find out and wipe the group

[lusty grotto]

i thought you didnt look for feedback

[lost wyvern]

??????

[lusty grotto]

#protection message lets refresh your memory

[lost wyvern]

im already living rent free in your head then i guess?

[lusty grotto]

sure

[lost wyvern]

seems like it

[lusty grotto]

indeed it is

[zealous grove]

I imagine this is asked a bit but couldn't see anything in the pins. M+ only - Sophic devotion or shadowflame wreathe?

[cinder nova]

S I M

[pallid quiver]

The above, but it's usually wafting

[zealous grove]

wafting?

[cinder nova]

Haste proc

[zealous grove]

that wasn't even in my considerations D:

[cinder nova]

For M+ you should be simming 5 targets for... what? 1.5 minutes?

Dungeon Slice is trolling

[lusty grotto]

1 min and 1.5 mins without lust

[zealous grove]

patchwerk - 5 - 1.5?

[cinder nova]

Yeah.

[zealous grove]

playing healer and aug for so long i forgot sims existed

whups

wafting was right

[toxic pewter]

wafting is what all the cool kids play

[ashen coral]

How can I know what is the better repartition of stat defensively ?

My goal was to reach 39% unbuffed haste, then 30% vers for heal+dr+more IP, and then mastery for more IP and more parry

Was I wrong ? How could I know what is better ?

[lusty grotto]

mastery doesnt give parry

crit gives parry

idk whats your basis to having those percents

like there's really no metric

i would tag Stats Dont Matter but hes probably working

basically any stat has a defensive use, it doesnt matter if you have X amount or not

only haste matters

up until the unbuffed cap i have on my nickname

[ashen coral]

You should not think about the additional percent you gain

For example, going from 0% damage reduction to 1% is worse than going from 98% to 99%

Because in the first scénario you multiply you damage from 1 to 0.99, and in the second you multiply from 0.02 to 0.01 : you divide your damage by two in the second scenario

[lusty grotto]

wat

[ashen coral]

I chose these percents because of diminishing returns at 30% and 39%

[ashen coral]

But crit seems worse as I understand no ? The most damage we take are not from melee so parry seems less valuable than more ignore pain

And about mastery I thought I saw that in the description but i may be wrong

[lusty grotto]

...

how is parry less valuable its full mit

[ashen coral]

Oh sorry I meant crit block

[lusty grotto]

these stats are not wrong, but they are far from optimal

going out of your way to get 30% versa is... ridiculous

you are sacrificing so much of other stats by doing so

[ashen coral]

Currently with what I already have I think I'll be able to reach 30% vers (and 39% haste) or almost and almost 25% mastery, but only 10% crit

I don't find so bad

Unless i loose like 5% dps i guess

[lusty grotto]

30% versa is 15% dr

youre sacrifcing A LOT OF CRIT for that

15% dr is taken away on a +1 up key after levels 20

[ashen coral]

But it gives me also more damage and more ignore pain, I know that damage increases faster with crit but is it really so high ?

[lusty grotto]

its kind of silly

doesnt matter if it gives you ignore pain

the amount of crit you will gain by swapping will be way more damage

ignore pain is not your main mit, nor its something you should max out

[ashen coral]

And if it is, how could I find the perfect balance, as sim only works for dps ?

[pallid quiver]

the perfect balance is having stats

The defense difference between each stat is so minimal that there's no point in optimizing it

The dtps difference is so asbolutely minor over the course of a boss encounter, let alone M+, that it'll be undetectable to any but the most dedicated

[lusty grotto]

defensively... there's no perfect balance

or rather, what luerce said is correct

[pallid quiver]

The only time it'd possibly matter is in an M+ dungeon where literally every single bit of damage you take is unparriable/unblockable or something like that

Which doesn't exist

[queen hemlock]

Abit on a off topic thing
Anyone got a prot warrior pov to watch for mythic plus?

[toxic pewter]

10% crit just sounds awful and unfun to be honest lmao

[pallid quiver]

Also, this is the wrong way of looking at it. Take 1% to 2% reduction compared to that same bit. You're doubling the effectiveness by getting just 1%, but getting a large bit less of a benefit going from 98% to 99%

It's why having some mastery at all is of use instead of infinitely stacking stats

[queen hemlock]

Any good-decent protwarrior youtubs content creator or somethin

[pallid quiver]

Pika's your beat go-to for M+ Youtube atm

[lusty grotto]

#268491842637660160 has a list

[pallid quiver]

Sense traditionally uploads M+ runs, too, but I don't think he had any non M raid uploaded last I checked

[queen hemlock]

Yea

[ashen coral]

But having more ignore pain with one use makes me either save more rage or have more reduction if I decide to spam it in a difficult moment no ? It can be benificial in high damage phase so I am not overwhelmed

[queen hemlock]

Sense norme dont have yourub vids

Plka right?

Thanks

[lusty grotto]

sense does have youtube vids

[queen hemlock]

Yea i guess i didnt check enough
Thanks for the heads up

[queen hemlock]

He is currently doing his mythic raids
He didnt even upload all his heroic lul
But aye

[ashen coral]

It is true in some case and wrong in other

For DR situation, going from 1 to 2 percent is multiplying damage talek by 0.98/0.99≈0.99 while going from 98 to 99 is multiplying damage taken by 0.01/0.02≈0.5

But it is true for damage, winning 1% from 0 is better than from 20

[lusty grotto]

im having a hard time following this logic

[ashen coral]

I read this website which demonstrates that in term of damage taken, vers have an increasing return : https://www.dreamgrove.gg/guardian/diminishing-returns/

[lusty grotto]

read*

[ashen coral]

Yes sorry

[lusty grotto]

that dreamgrove articles is looking at stats in a vacuum

what S is saying is correct

versa DR is multiplicative with our own DR cooldowns

which means that when you have a wall up, it amounts to a smaller total amount of DR this is wrong

or demo

or SR for magical damage

and including D stance

[ashen coral]

Hum but if it is multiplicative, if you multiply damage by 0.8, it doesn't matter if you already multiplied before by 0.5, you will still multiply damage by 0.8

If you multiply something by 0.5 and then 0.5, you have multiplied by 0.25 but you have divided by 4

I see no diminishing return in it

[pallid quiver]

Damn, we can get 100% DR then!

You're mentally arguing bith addititve and multiplicative

Example of that end is 50% DR used with 50% DR

You take 25% damage and aren't immune

[ashen coral]

You can take twice more hits anyway, no matter by how much you divided before

[lusty grotto]

wall is 40%, SR is 20%, demo is 20%

if you multiply your 15% versa DR in

you get 46% total DR for wall + versa (this is wrong)

~~23% for both of those ~~ (this is wrong)

if you use SR and Demo together

you get 20 * 1.20 * 1.15 (this is wrong)

[urban portal]

well no

0.8*0.8

if its SR and demo

its 1-whatever

[lusty grotto]

its 27.8 % total mit (this is wrong)

the point is

its not a total 15 % extra DR youre getting because its all multiplicative

if you add SB and spell block to that

the amount of total DR you end up added with versa is so ridiculously small

[urban portal]

its not 27.8

[lusty grotto]

and lets also factor in D Stance

[urban portal]

its 46%

[lusty grotto]

noe (i was wrong)

[urban portal]

just with 20 20 and 15

[lusty grotto]

no its not (i was wrong)

demo and sr are multiplicative with each other

[urban portal]

yes

its 1-(0.8x0.8x0.85)

thats just how it works

im sorry my masters in math is just not good enough for you

[lusty grotto]

im.. what?

[ashen coral]

I mean, it is still 15% of the damage you would have taken

If the number is low enough then you didn't need it, but if with all these DR you still take high damage then it is as valuable as all other damage reduction

[lusty grotto]

of your current total DR, you multiply additional percents

[lusty grotto]

no, its not

[urban portal]

yes you multiply

but you are multiplying incorrectly

1000 damage, 20% from demo shout

800

20% from SR

-160

[lusty grotto]

no

[urban portal]

you are at 640

[lusty grotto]

thats not how it works

[urban portal]

yes thats exactly how it works

[lusty grotto]

its not removed from the damage

[pallid quiver]

we keep arguing math without any context to numbers, i think imma head out of this one (105 is correct here on how the formula goes)

[urban portal]

if its not removed, you hit 0 damage extremely quickly

thats how armor and mitigation formula works in every rpg under the sun wow included

dont wanna ping the oranges cuz they all asleep

[ashen coral]

I will give you another example
Let's imagine you have a 99% damage reduction

And then you have another damage reduction which divide damage by 1000

You will have 99.999%

You have only gain 1.999% damage reduction according to what you said

But you divided damage taken by 1000, would you say it was not valuable ?

[urban portal]

going from 98 to 99% DR is extremely OP

[lusty grotto]

[pallid quiver]

The issue isn't the baseline math, it's the effort you can put into increasing stats in comparison to their interactions with DR. So they're right on the base math, but missing the context as to how it affects things in the scope of the game

[urban portal]

you also forget we already have massive forms of mitigation even without shield block up, in terms of tank passive and armor

you take 60% less damage just from being a tank

and then we do our equations on top of that

[pallid quiver]

On top of that is the damage reduction from other stats over time, as well

It's not vers giving the only defensive benefit

[lusty grotto]

this is a pointless example, you will never get 90% versa

DR, i guess sure

versa only DR... absolutely not

[urban portal]

vers DR is dogshit

90% DR from vers is 180% vers

thats BFA levels

[lusty grotto]

versatile corruption levels yea

[urban portal]

speaking of BFA levels thats why BFA vers was so good

because you just go up to like 50-60% mitigation

[pallid quiver]

thats why i was complaining about the lack of context, because overall, the math is fine, but the effort behind getting stats and everything limits it

[urban portal]

which beats all other forms of mitigation except like parry

[ashen coral]

It was just an example to show you that looking to the additional percent you gain is not relevant as you can get a small amount of percent and yet having a massive dr with it

[lusty grotto]

but a change from 98 to 99 is fucking massive in comparison with what is attainable

98% to 99% is not the same as 46% to 47%

its an unrealistic example

in other words, it doesnt apply

[pallid quiver]

At any rate

Your issue is that the context is missing from all your calcs.

Crit, Mastery, and Haste also all give extra defensive stats that interact with each other, as well. Parry can be a pain to account for, as well, due to it being tied to statistics, which people are shit at. You gain defensive value from all of them; you can't just only look at the gain in vers and ignore the loss in crit

[pallid quiver]

and your issue is semi-shoddy moth and semi-existing context, which is rougha but

at least from what i saw at a glance, nim, i wasn't engaging with your posts as much tbh

I could be wrong on the math part

[lusty grotto]

i mean im not math major, my degree is in engineering

[urban portal]

i am

so yeah

[lusty grotto]

so if its wrong, its wrong

yeah you already said so lol

[urban portal]

basically this, blizzard is generally good at making all stats relatively decent

especially for tanks where you cant sim

vers has the problem of costing more than double the other stats to get 1% DR

so the opportunity cost is insanely high

[ashen coral]

It is what I am saying, there's no point to look the number of percent, this is not a diminishing return

And for @pallid quiver , yes my answer was just about the fact that if it is a diminishing return or not, I am not arguing on if it is better to have full vers as it was the question I was asking basically

[lusty grotto]

but

what does diminishing returns have to do with any of this

[pallid quiver]

doesn't it actually have rating dr now

[pallid quiver]

that was my complaint is that it came up like this, the whole argument is relatively pointless

[lusty grotto]

6150 rating is the first DR

or softcap

specifically for versa

im guessing that's probably square 30% / 15%

[pallid quiver]

I've heard people say BFA Vers had no rating DR. I didn't actually play much during BFA, but that sounds wrong just instinctively

[ashen coral]

Because after my question about stats, I answered to a previous post from a person who told that gaining 15% dr was a diminishing return if you already have other damage reduction, and so we spoke about this part

[urban portal]

yeah shadowlands introduced DR i believe

[lusty grotto]

oh yeah S had the whole diminishing returns thing confused

[pallid quiver]

That's fucked it was in SL

[urban portal]

SL didnt really reach that point anyways

definitely came into play for DF though

[pallid quiver]

I just mean that they didn't have dr until then for it

[lusty grotto]

well they kind of "found out" about it due to versatile

i guess lol

but thats not unlike blizzard

people break the game, they fix

otherwise, working as intended

i genuinely thought multiplicative DR meant % of %

i dont know where i picked that off

thanks for the correction 105C

[urban portal]

no p

[pallid quiver]

Kneejerk is because with added context, you take more damage, effectively reducing the dr an ability gives, by stacking them

If you use two 50% DRs on one ability that does 100, but have neither available for the second hit, you take 125 damage overall

If you split those, you take two 50 instances for 100 total

[lusty grotto]

yeah

that at least makes sense

[cinder nova]

Diminishing returns is just a phrase, it's agnostic to rating being diminished and how %-mitigation works in concert with one another. It's just showing you get proportionally less out of something as you invest similar amounts into it.

Like Luerce said, having two 50% mitigation effects on a 100 damage hit is only 75% total mitigation. You're suffering from diminishing returns as a result of stacking them together instead of using them separately

It just happens that diminishing returns is more commonly hinged to two things:

• Secondary stat ratings
• CC effects

How mitigation stacks multiplicatively is still a form of diminishing returns. Adding multiple 20% effects on top of one another, for example, will yield less and less effective mitigation with each iteration.

[lusty grotto]

yeah its not THE dr, but i get what you were saying

[cinder nova]

What was this hairbrained crusade I just read through about trying to stack to 30% Vers??

[lusty grotto]

Red is doing some mental gymnastics trying to get the perfect spread of defensive stats which makes no sense

basically

i mean well, tbf its fine, its just -like i said- not optimal

[pallid quiver]

math without context

[cinder nova]

I noticed. I saw a blurb from Luerce about not being able to reliably account for parry/dodge, though - can't you?

@urban portal
Would it be incorrect to use logs as a reference point to determine how much approximate damage parry and doge provide by the median raw hit over a key, then use your parry and dodge to determine effectively how much damage you would mitigate?

Or is it more that you could, it's just not... useful.

[pallid quiver]

It's not that you can't reliably but that it's fuck tons harder

[cinder nova]

I dunno, is it really?

[pallid quiver]

Especially since when taking statistics into mind, you have to work against human bias

[cinder nova]

I feel like if you just pool stats from keys you could get a pretty good idea.

[pallid quiver]

Mathemateically, it's still just working it out

[cinder nova]

Does WCL have any API that enable scraping?

I will say, I think there's a trap in there somewhere. I can see people adding together your parry and dodge % and something about that feels not quite accurate.

Because I know it rolls them separately.

[pallid quiver]

yeah that's what i mean with it being harder

[cinder nova]

Wouldn't the avoidance chance just be using the same as the %-mit equation, though?

It's the same concept.

[pallid quiver]

It's easier to apply the wrong effort toward calculating things tied to rng

[cinder nova]

Like, if you had 50% parry and 50% dodge, wouldn't you have a net 75% chance to avoid a blow between them?

Assuming you ignore miss chance and block.

[urban portal]

i mean yeah

if you have 30% parry

you can essentially say its 30% physical DR

[pallid quiver]

^^

[cinder nova]

That's what I was thinking.

[urban portal]

obviously theres nuance to it

[cinder nova]

Naturally.

[urban portal]

but over the course of million of keys its 30% dr

[pallid quiver]

Since it's full damage mit, but yeah

[cinder nova]

And it just increases in value the higher in keys you go

It dramatically outpaces Vers

[pallid quiver]

If it gets less than full mit, it's the same thing, just another step

[cinder nova]

Because when Xavius hit smashing your face in for 1.3M a swing, parrying one is huge.

And you're liable to get around 100+ hits in a single fight

[urban portal]

crit scales harder in keys than vers does yeah

[cinder nova]

Obviously we know the chance to parry doesn't mean it's going to match perfectly.

[pallid quiver]

Issues pop up with procs, damage profiles, and anything that's not pure stats, but it can be hard accounted for

[cinder nova]

But you usually will get very close.

[urban portal]

also you can trickle heal DR

[pallid quiver]

by pure stats i mean adjust rng or anything

[urban portal]

cant trickle heal parry

[cinder nova]

See, Luerce, that's why I start by lowballing and keeping a lot of those procs out to prove a point.

[pallid quiver]

Just loosely adapting a term for things like Fire Emblem's to hit chance, which isn't straight honest

[cinder nova]

Because when you show how bad or good something is before you get granular, it highlights very plainly why it is good/bad.

[modern gazelle]

dude larodar is SOOOO much easier than nymue

15 pulls and its dead

[cinder nova]

Really? I had the inverse.

[urban portal]

you can outgear larodar

[cinder nova]

I'd take Nymue every day of the week over Larry.

[modern gazelle]

we nuked larodar, nymue took us like 2 days of prog

[pallid quiver]

that's why i just dont math half the time

[cinder nova]

We don't stack INT here.

Me hit target

Target fall over

[pallid quiver]

I don't ever want to enter Nym's fight again

[cinder nova]

Math work

[pallid quiver]

Not even because it's hard

[cinder nova]

Honestly Nymue is kinda chill tbh

[pallid quiver]

But because I just fucking hate looking at it

[cinder nova]

I don't get the hate for hit.

[pallid quiver]

It's so hard for me to see things in that fight without big concentration

[cinder nova]

Once I figured out you could just leap back in over the loom

[pallid quiver]

I just can't see the colors well

[cinder nova]

I was able to mentally check out

[pallid quiver]

So it's hard to see soaks

Hard to see lines

[cinder nova]

The loom or the floor

[pallid quiver]

Both

[cinder nova]

Floor is whatever

Ignore it tbh

Loom is the killer

[pallid quiver]

I have actual trouble telling them apart without dedicated effort once the lines start moving

[cinder nova]

Color blindness?

[pallid quiver]

And I have to hyper focus on the lines or else they just disappear to my eyes

Some amount of it, probably

[cinder nova]

Did you not adjust the colorblind settings on the fight?

[pallid quiver]

I've been meaning to try color blind modes to see if it helps

[cinder nova]

That wasn't an uncommon strat.

[pallid quiver]

But I normally don't have issues with it

[cinder nova]

Even non colorblind players used it because it made certain mechanics hot pink

I opted not to because it was an optical shitshow for my sensibilities

[pallid quiver]

I've played cruelty squad

I can handle some hot mess design

[cinder nova]

Larry was bad for me because I wasn't used to taking Defender's and the uptime constraints were kinda shitty to make sure I had a wall for every charge.

Plus ranging my healers I'd just die to fire a lot

So I started leaping laterally along the edge of the fire so that I can just slide back in afterward

[modern gazelle]

defenders gives less wall though

[cinder nova]

Instead of away

[modern gazelle]

so its worse

[cinder nova]

You literally don't have wall every charge otherwise.

[modern gazelle]

you can natty it if you just walk far enough tbh

then leap back thats all id o

[pallid quiver]

you do if you play extremely well, actually

[modern gazelle]

dont nee dwall on every

[pallid quiver]

It comes back like 2 seconds before it hits

[cinder nova]

I'd pay to see that

[modern gazelle]

stack ip, always SR, and tbh i use rageheart but last stand and demo are fine

[pallid quiver]

Nome was mentioning it before, so you should slap him about it

[cinder nova]

See, I refuse to hold demo for mit

Just send it for the rage and the damage

I actually just would plant and leap out at the last 2s of the cast to make space

And I'd jump at a very mild angle along the edge so it's not making more fire and I'm still in range the whole time.

And it helps him get back into position faster anyway

And then charge back in

Every time I walked out naturally I'd just die from being in the fire for ages

I was getting almost no attention in those moments, so I had to improvise.

I'm also not trying to stack IP for its own sake unless I know I absolutely need it because I have nothing, which was rare.

And I didn't run rageheart.

Like - of course you can forgo Aegis if you play very defensively.

[modern gazelle]

better to just SR walk out, then leap back

[cinder nova]

I didn't have that experience.

I was dying under SR

I was dying under wall sometimes too

Like actually just not getting healed as I moved out

[modern gazelle]

i legit natty it at some points though if you are full hp with SR and some ip

but im also 483ilvl

[cinder nova]

And it's not like I'm undergeared or not using Def.

I'm 484.

200K fire ticks just ate my ass alive most of our prog

[modern gazelle]

yeah so sr to walk out, then jump back

itll be much safer

[cinder nova]

Lol bro I'm dying under wall in the fire walking out

[modern gazelle]

make sure not to leap till AFTER the charge hits you though or else it cancels jump

are you in d stance?

[cinder nova]

Yes.

[modern gazelle]

weird...

[cinder nova]

For the nth time, just not getting any healing because it's 200K a tick and I think the guild's healers were very used to self-healing tanks as their last combo was DK/Pal

So it was easier to just leap out at the last moment then charge in so I don't spend very long in the fire since I wasn't getting topped unless I announced every charge I did.

It was honestly quite miserable. Nymue was a lot easier because she's very low-impact. The only thing you really have to use your brain for is not standing in shit, Splock the Threaded Blast w/debuff, and Wall the Bloom if you got debuff going into intermission.

The fight was practically autopilot. Tanks are asleep in Nymue tbh

Larry is honestly the only M fight I loathe

Did not enjoy it one bit.

[novel temple]

Would intervene be a good idea for larodar? As long as you don’t intervene the other tank

[lusty grotto]

just do the 500IQ move and pick intervene, and then leap out to intervene a friendly anchor

ayo

high five rollyson

into intervening, i meant

[novel temple]

Great minds think alike

[lusty grotto]

[modern gazelle]

Very necessary lol

[cinder nova]

I dunno, Intervene felt like a bait choice tbh

I tried it, it does its job, but any time you could intervene you could charge

So it kinda begs the question why you'd use it over charge.

[plush tendon]

intervene is siq

and its a shame that its in such a piss poor spot in our talent tree

[lusty grotto]

you guys ready for this

thats one of this chipadin pug tanks

LOL

[ionic fern]

At least he steered away from shockwave.

This was my pug tank once.

And he used 0 Shockwaves.

[lusty grotto]

he actually has

most of fyraak's loot

while nimchip in shambles

with 0 fyraak stuff

[ionic fern]

I also got 0. 😦

Please provide me trinkets.

And weapon.

[lusty grotto]

hes getting giga rocked by tswift

[pallid quiver]

Swift too hard of fight, please nerf to be soloable, kthx

[novel temple]

The greatest shame is the lost of legion intercept, which combined intervene and charge together

[ionic fern]

Safeguard.

😦

[pallid quiver]

Give skull banner back, kthx

[modern light]

what is our go to haste cap?

[light dune]

7100

[blissful ether]

I saw the insane amount of spellcast we can either reflect or block. Do you guys memorize that list or is there an up to date weakaura or adding that tells you?
The one in the faq seems to be outdated

[ionic fern]

I just memorize by doing keys.

You can go by the general rule of:
"If it's a direct cast, it's Reflectable/Blockable".

If it's a DoT, it's not ReflectablE/Blockable.

Though, there are exceptions to those rules.

[light dune]

I support these statements

[blazing condor]

Still can get lucky on fyrakk today since he didnt did yesterday

[ashen coral]

But it is still not a diminishing return

That's not because you gain "only" 25% instead of 50% that your damage reduction is worse

In the end, you can still take twice more hit than if you didn't have this second 50% damage reduction

Looking at the difference in term of percentage between two damage reduction makes no sense since getting +1% from 50 will not have the same effect than from 90% (itis better from 90%)

[cerulean tusk]

If you Google spell reflect weak aura, you should get a DF one that will remind you if something casts on you. You need to remember to adjust so you only reflect the right casts, and don't forget to use SR for pure damage reduction

The weak aura is updated regularly, but still lack some casts like soul dagger and the like. So keep your wits about you

[wind oak]

If stuff are missing in the WA you can DM Torkal

Or for bug

[ashen coral]

I get your point about the fact that it removes "less damage", but in the end what is important is how it will make you survive better

If you have a hit which deals 1mil damage unmitigated, you have 1 mil hp, if you have only one 50% dr, you will mitigate 500k and die in 2 hits, if you have the second 50% dr, the second will mitigate "only" 250k but you will die in 4 hits, twice more, so this is not a dr at all because no matter how much damage reduction you had, if it is written 50% damage reduction you will survive twice better

You can just look by how many you divide damage

If you have one 50% dr, you divide by two, if you have two 50% dr you divide by 4, if you have three 50% dr you divide by 8, there is not diminishing return in this

Yet it is the same thing

[cerulean tusk]

Spread out your damage reduction so you don't die to follow up dam.

Keep in mind dred% layers.
Keep in mind deffects.
Keep in mind Dred% caps.

What is the actual topic of discussion? TLDR version please.

[hardy snow]

Its quite bold to assume that you will receive that many such big hits in short time of defensive spell duration

Its way more common that you receive such big hits with some delay, so single CD wont cover all of them

[ashen coral]

Someone said that as you already have damage reduction, if you get like 15% damage reduction (which is multiplicative) from vers, it will be less efficient because you already have damage reduction

He gave the example of having two 50% damage reduction will give a damage reduction of "only" 75%, and called it a diminishing return, which is not actually

[hardy snow]

but it is for this particular hit, you said its not, but you assume following same big hits that will fit into window of those DRs

[ashen coral]

I just answered to the example given by the other person about how having two 50% damage reduction would be a diminishing return

If we wanted to be realistic, we would talk about having a permanent 15% damage reduction from vers, and like 60% from other sources, still, this is not a diminishing return

You will multiply all your damage taken by 0.85, and survive 15% better

[ashen coral]

I could also say that thanks to this second 50% damage reduction, you can increase the damage to 100% and survive as much as when you didn't have the second damage reduction and the 100% increased damage

In the reality, it would translate to the ability to do higher key just thanks to this second damage reduction

So if you have 30% vers, 15% dr from it, no matter how much damage reduction you already have, you will be able to do higher key with 15% more damage, and still survive the same (of course in reality it is not as simple as there are dps and all, but this is just to show that other damage reductions do not reduce efficiency of an additional damage reduction)

So this is not a diminishing return if you already have other damage reduction

[ionic fern]

That's a lot of text.

[light dune]

Shut up nerds

Me charge and slam

[blazing condor]

slam?

[median tulip]

I just push buttons

[sick sentinel]

so, with my gear im at 7100 haste without buffs

so now what

how does this change gameplay for me

[hardy snow]

If I'm about to get hit for 1 mil and using another 50% DR reduces hit only by 250k it means it reduced hit by 25% instead of supposed 50%, that is called diminishing return.

[hardy snow]

now you can get more crit 👍

[cerulean tusk]

By diminishing return, it used here as a term that immediate total effect is reduced. So 20% DR (l1) + 15% DR (l2) is not 35% total DR, but 32.5%, if you get my drift

[sick sentinel]

all i really need is 300ish haste even if i swap to a non haste stat stick trinket

[ashen coral]

Or you could say that the could be hit 100% stronger and you would still tank thanks to the additional 50% damage reduction

Like for deios, you have to rotate your cd between leap, sw, sb, etc so you can't really stack them

If you have a constant 15% damage reduction (vers), deios could hit for 1/0.85≈17.6% more damage you would still take the same damage as before and so you survive, while you may have died without

[forest yacht]

how much of a cap is the 7100 haste cap

is it a haste suggestion or will the prot 🚓 arrest me

[cerulean tusk]

A meme cap, you do you

[cerulean tusk]

Red, can you confirm you understood the termology used? Then we can discuss further your points.

[ionic fern]

40%?

Roughly.

[blazing condor]

its a cap in the sense that you'd wanna look into getting more of other stats by that point

cus theyre gonna have more value

[forest yacht]

im just asking because i can craft a ring/neck which will take me far above 7100

[ashen coral]

40.25% unbuffed haste irrc, but the 20% diminishing return happens at 39% of unbuffed haste

[forest yacht]

so im like

should i just go crit/vers

instead of haste

[blazing condor]

do you have any trinkets/whatever that buffs rating

cus if youre gonna replace them then the craft can still be viable

[forest yacht]

nah im using fyrakk and stonescale

replacing this

[cerulean tusk]

That is a lot of crit to detonate your legendary 2H with

[forest yacht]

play fury

[hardy snow]

[forest yacht]

yeah but that sims damage, doesnt really sim defensive capability

[ashen coral]

Yes, diminishing return in this case means that the more damage reduction you take, the less it is efficient, which is wrong because it is multiplicative

Having 50% will divide damage per two and will allow you to take twice more unmitigated damage than without (either by taking twice more hit, or by having hit twice more powerful)

No matter what dr you had basically it remains true

[cerulean tusk]

So you disagree with the core termology?

[blazing condor]

🍿

[forest yacht]

im so fucking confused

reading this

[blazing condor]

i aint even reading those essays

[forest yacht]

it just means the more of something you have, the less each point provides in value

[ashen coral]

I agree with the terminology, I disagree to the fact that it applies to multiplicative damage reduction as it is multiplicative and not additive

And I am basing my reasoning on this : https://www.dreamgrove.gg/guardian/diminishing-returns/

[cerulean tusk]

Ok, so why we discussing the usage if you understand its meaning?

Social norm overrules and dictates anything else. So let's put a pin in it. What are you coming at other than termology?

[forest yacht]

is the haste added by ITF affected by diminishing returns

[cerulean tusk]

Nop

Only rating haste

Not flat

[ashen coral]

Basically I answered to a message which said that stacking damage reduction makes them less efficient, I disagreed because of what I said, and then the discussion went on this topic so I kept answerening

[cerulean tusk]

I would presume, without looking, that the context is, example: 50%+50% stacked =/= 100% damage red, but 75% damage red. So by not spreading them out you lose 25% value over the duration?

So lets say 1000 damage: A alone is 500 red, A+B = 750 dam red, B = 500 red.

A into B = 1000 total dam red. A+B is 750. 250 is "lost"

[ashen coral]

That's the initial reasoning, but if you talk about damage reduction you talk about how much damage you can take

Yes B removes "only" 25% of the initial damage despite being 50% damage reduction, but it allows to take 2000 damage instead of 1000, so still twice more

[cerulean tusk]

Are we talking over a period or instant, or just a pure theoretical one hit?

[ashen coral]

That's the same outcome, if it is in a period you can multiply this period by two, if it is instant you can multiply the strength of the hit by two

[cerulean tusk]

As let us say it is a 2000 total damage, A and B can both cower 50% of the duration each. They can be stacked.

Then the most efficent would be to spread them

If the 2k came instant, then you would stack them

Aka 500 each total 1000 of 2000, 50%, vs 750 reduced

[ashen coral]

The topic was about how vers is not really efficient, if you have only one B in your example, you should indeed spread these dr, but having a permanent B means you can take twice more hit or take a hit twice more powerful

[cerulean tusk]

Versa is not efficent compared to what?

Versa is efficent value as DR, noone should argue on that.

[ashen coral]

It was said that having for example a 15% dr from vers is "not really" 15% because the total amount of dr was lower, but actually you will still be able to tank 1/0.85 more hit or a hit 1/0.85 more powerful

So I would not call vers's damage reduction less efficient that it appears

[cerulean tusk]

Depends on what you mean, but I partly agree. It is just many would believe 15% versa equals 15 damage out of 100, as it wouldnt. But it would reduce 15% of the going through value, making your efficient health affected.

So that is what they probably mean by "not really 15%", if that makes sense.

Now - how and against what is versa compared? Flat DR from dstance or?

[ashen coral]

It was not compared actually, the point was just to say that vers did not reduce damage by a lot because you had damage reduction which would make it less efficient (this one point that I disagreed), and so you should take other stat (point which can be true or wrong but i did not argue with it because i don't know)

[cerulean tusk]

Well, based on context clues, it seems they argue versa Vs crit/haste/mast got values where versa is not the optimal choice. As versa loses direct value with DR stacking, parry do not (if we talking autos) - then crit would be argued to have better value.

So 1% crit = 1% parry, 1% parry = 1% pure damage reduction.
1% versa, = 0.5% damage reduction = 0.5% damage reduction is futher reduced by other DR values on top

Is that where the point of contention lies?

[ashen coral]

Yes it was the point

[cerulean tusk]

So you think Versa vs Crit is equal, or better in practical use?

I am trying to figure out what you are arguing for here, as it seems you just wanted to clarify your view of how termology should be used. That you talking about efficient modified d value vs other talking total value numbers.

You don't seem to actually be disagreeing with anything, other than the first thing.

[ashen coral]

Offensively or defensively ?
Overall I don't know, defensively I do think vers is better because it reduces all form of damages, not only blocked hit

[cerulean tusk]

I don't know, you are the one that brought up the argumentation tree I presume?

I only came in watching you argue termology

That made no sense, btw, but that is fixed and done.

[ashen coral]

I disagree with the "damage reduction is further reduced by other DR values on top" part, although I see where it comes from

[cerulean tusk]

As long you understand they are talking total values, it is fine.

I still fail to see how it connects with versa, but that is another song and dance.

Where do you want to go with this conversation?

What is the point you wanted to go to, before the whole 'versa DR' part?

[thorny stone]

[ashen coral]

It started here, and then there were answers, then my answer of answers, nd then answers of my answers, etc

[cerulean tusk]

Give me a TLDR, where did you want to go?

[ashen coral]

You asked me why I was arguing, so I show you what was my point basically and why it lasted until this morning

I just disagreed with a point so I told it

[cerulean tusk]

You disagreed with termology?

[ashen coral]

Not really, just the fact that adding a damage reduction over a damage reduction made this damage reduction less efficient

If this damage reduction is permanent i mean

[cerulean tusk]

It is less efficent in total values, sure. The whole 20%+15% =/= 35% but 32.5% holds true, in that sense.

What matters is in what context it is being argued. If it is that just any DR is good DR, I don't think anyone would disagree.

I am trying to get to why you are arguing about it in the first place.

The point, in other words.

[ashen coral]

I argued because I disagree with this point and therefore wanted to talk about it

[cerulean tusk]

To me it seems you agree, that 20%+15% =/= 35%.

[light dune]

Fellas be defending their doctoral thesis out here

[cerulean tusk]

I fail to see where the disagreement is in other than the termology in its name. And if that is the only point you got, then you lose by just social convention and usuage of the term.

[ashen coral]

But is is not because 20%+15% ≠ 35% that the +15% is less efficient than if there was not 20%, I disagree with this

[strong forum]

effectively speaking

the 15% is 15%

total DR yes, its not

but effectively it still does that part

same as going from 98 to 99% DR is 1% total DR gain

but a 50% effective gain

[cerulean tusk]

It seems like an empty and very pointless discussion, sadly. I hoped to get to the root issue, there just seems to be none.

[strong forum]

lets just agree that stats dont matter as nearly as much as people pretend they do

[cerulean tusk]

If you agree to that cheeze is great.

[toxic pewter]

i fell asleep to this same conversation lol

[cerulean tusk]

Oh, I am also a stat absolutist. Stats absolutly matter. If you dont have enough efficent HP, you die. Having stats to avoid that situation matters absolutely and is non-negotiable.

[toxic pewter]

lol

[strong forum]

Having alot of stats is good

obviously

but the difference in trying to get the perfect stat spread and having just and average or suboptimal one, especially for tanks, is miniscule

youll really only notice it at DPS output far more than in any other situation

[sudden grotto]

give me all the haste

[cerulean tusk]

A man of my tastes

[strong forum]

well yeah

i also love haste, it just also so happens to be our most preferred stat

[cerulean tusk]

Or is it more preferred because we love it?

[strong forum]

more haste = more gud

[hardy snow]

more haste = more fun

[cerulean tusk]

more fun = more blizz nerfs

more blizz nerfs = bad

haste = bad

[strong forum]

maybe not under macrohard

[hardy snow]

[sudden grotto]

just be a dh

and have all the fotm rerollers play suboptimal builds

so your spec doesnt get nerfed

[strong forum]

been there done that

[cerulean tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/bigbrain-bigbrainactivity-thinking-mindblown-gif-24018998

Greylog and die a lot, so you affect stats

get your class buffed

[sudden grotto]

do u think that was the formula for mages?

and their recent buffs

[cerulean tusk]

... sabotaged their logs, held back their rio... then after the buffs was announced they top Rio and Meters, just to establish total dominance and dispair.

Respect.

[blazing condor]

its honestly interesting how scarce healers are this tier

especially for raids

blizz kinda fucked up

only dks/retri/warrs playing

[cerulean tusk]

Why heal retail, when you could heal SOD and chill

[craggy pilot]

when do i swap to new talents? If im 2+2set from old tier, should i keep Bolster?

[blazing condor]

yes

when you leave old tier you can swap to new ones

[craggy pilot]

ok

kinda wanted to start using Spell Block also, but the loss for taking it is so big

[blazing condor]

you have a lot of catalyst charges at least

so just gotta get those pieces

[karmic plinth]

you can run bolster + spell block and its not the worst with 2+2

[blazing condor]

just take away bloodsurge

[craggy pilot]

ah true

[potent moth]

Hey guys,
my guild and I started progging Tindral mythic yesterday, do you have any tips for those are done progging that boss or are already done :). Since there are currently no logs up for any prot warrior I guess no prot killed it yet.

But for those who are currently in prog any useful tips beforehand? 😄

[blazing condor]

Dont think you're gonna find a lot of info for mythic tindral from pwarrs in here

not sure if Sense is progging tindral or if they on holiday break but that'd be the dude to ask

[sick sentinel]

maybe once i get shoulders hero, i will make engi helm and bs bracer

would be nice to still have brez possibility

[waxen frigate]

Nothing to do with the legendary it’s the fact they keep making it less fun to heal lmao

They nerfed the shit out of healers in 10.2

[blazing condor]

im gonna kms

[waxen frigate]

Do it pussy

[blazing condor]

might as well after this

holy shit doing this raid is making me wanna quit

8 hours of playing to get a hc fyrakk kill with pugs

another week of getting absolutely nothing

[waxen frigate]

Join a guild

Even as a casual just join a CE guild

Go to their heroic runs for scraps

[toxic pewter]

how can i join a mythic raiding guild

[waxen frigate]

Step 1: don’t be apb

[toxic pewter]

i am very power full tho

some say.. msot powerful

[sick sentinel]

few more raids later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhSHXGM7kgE

[fair elm]

what tanks are generally the "sturdiest" right now? My Warrior feels ok and I've been taking my BDK and Prot Paladin through timewalking. They feel absolutely terrible if I don't have active mitigation up

(they're 70 just doing it for catch up gear)

(Context btw is that I heroic raid and do some M+ but don't so much care about Mythic raid prog)

[median tulip]

Protection Warrior is the king of mitigation. We don't take damage

[sick sentinel]

i can make some item

or, i could upgrade existing item to 476 and make a 463

ring for a new craft maybe, am not sure atm

[median tulip]

What crafted items do you currently have, and what ilvls are your Shield and Weapon?

[sick sentinel]

i need them dk shouldrs too, gloves i need to get them gloves, update, can't/ they suck

[toxic pewter]

just realized prot paladins have a 9 yard kick

that is the nail in the coffin for me LOL jfc

[blazing condor]

draft them to the nfl

[toxic pewter]

wild how imbalanced that spec is

[echo egret]

Their avg shield is an insult to other tanks in M+

Ranged kick + multi-target ranged threat

[toxic pewter]

like what world is all the shit they get appropriate

[plush tendon]

https://tenor.com/view/world-of-warcraft-blizzard-costumer-service-south-park-nipple-gif-21625925

[uneven mason]

#bringbackgagorder

[uneven mason]

In his world

Idk if you know this, but he mains a paladin

[toxic pewter]

if mountain thane/colossus (granted maybe colossus has some major utility) is all we getting when it comes to class changes its looking awfully bleak. Already have gone an entire expansion with zero iteration

[uneven mason]

11.0 alpha shows that they're getting banner and heroism

[toxic pewter]

ngl them getting battle rez has already gone down as one of the ridiculous things to ever occur in wow history

[uneven mason]

But maybe not clowning

[sick sentinel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIpdpF28sIQ tettles appears to have been bitten by the doomer bug

[uneven mason]

Literally can't figure out why they gave that to paladins outside of fucking over druids

[uneven mason]

Who the fuck is yettles

Yogi stop watching Fox news

[toxic pewter]

is that guy OK he does not look well in that video

[plush tendon]

https://tenor.com/view/alduin-warcraft-power-playthrough-gif-17211530

cause Anduin casted it

duuuuuh

[uneven mason]

AE Bres

Straight outta EverQuest

[toxic pewter]

and then also giving evokers lust

those 2 changes some of the worst in wow history

[vocal flame]

Prot pallys???

[uneven mason]

At least shaman are in a good spot rn

[uneven mason]

And grip

[toxic pewter]

not really, elemental still does not bring anything to groups, they are fun as hell though

[vocal flame]

Holy cow lmao they are insane

[uneven mason]

They're baller for DPS rn

But yeah no wtf totem and warlocks are a better ranged choice

[uneven mason]

I was clowning

But you're not wrong

[blazing condor]

i mean anduin is just a priest with plate armor

then again

priests dont have br

[uneven mason]

Go read what paladins are

That's literally what their origin story is

[plush tendon]

yea, but I get his point ya know

[blazing condor]

it was my understanding that he's technically not a paladin

[plush tendon]

hes more priest then he is like warrior

[uneven mason]

Yeah until sl

Now he's just a dk with no ghoul

[sick sentinel]

that me, basiccally dk

[uneven mason]

Tauren with helmets on

[sick sentinel]

those pants arent very good

im more concerned with hands on tauren

WHAT IS THAT

[uneven mason]

3 fingers

[sick sentinel]

im not sure if 3 fingers works for me when i stop to think about it

[median tulip]

AoE stun, bind, slow, poison removal. ST decurse. Group Movement speed buff. Knock up/back. Soaking a lot of annoying mechanics with Earth Elemental.

[toxic pewter]

no

also raid groups too no one actively wants ele shaman.. one of the most neglected specs of all time and they continue on strongly. Respect for shamans, they do not complain like some other classes

survivability also still one of their main issues

[warm plinth]

He just said no

[median tulip]

Shamen have a whole bunch of utility if the player knows to use it. Especially this week; the are great at handling Spiteful with both slows and knockback

On Fort weeks their Earth Elemental is great for the Spiders in BRH and the Snapdragons in TotT (& in previous seasons for Basilisks in Ulda and the adds on the tree boss in Academy)

Any time you have trash or adds that do relatively weak direct attacks but apply a nasty DoT of some kind, the earth elemental is your best friend.

[toxic pewter]

u dont have to convince me, I am a pro-shaman individual, I invite shaman to my groups

but i am just tellin it like it is

[cinder nova]

That's... literally what a diminishing return is... by definition.
Smaller gain the more you invest. Dreamgrove an economics precedent does not make. If it was additive, it wouldn't be diminishing
More, people have already pointed out that Vers - even 30% of it - will not make any meaningful survival breakpoints and is eclipsed in one key level from 20-21, which - you guessed it - doesn't need any Vers to actually do, just press your buttons.

Your net damage is still going to be higher.

Like ??? Moreover, you know that just because something is suffering from diminishing returns, that doesn't mean it's not worth doing at times.

[blazing condor]

so how do you activate the skip in the new raid? just kill igira and go up and activate seed to smold?

[cinder nova]

Yeah.

[dusky canopy]

Bro mythic smold positioning for the tornados is absolutely garbage

We’re having our tank stand right up against the old flame patches and it’s so incredibly crowded when tornadoes spit out

[cinder nova]

You should be leaving a space behind them, and everyone else should be positioned around behind the boss and near the sides aiming inward towards the ring.

The space behind is so DPS can crowd in there and get some range on the Overheat

And to get healed of the absorb without cleaving the raid

Nobody should be near the soak group, everyone else needs to be around the boss.

Like, a 120 degree cone around his backside

You have the space.

Hell, you can even go a little far with it as long as you can be in position for when lava drops

That's really all that matters

• Not hitting people with mechanics
• Baiting lava in position

As long as you aren't doing anything hazardous to the raid group, where you stand between all that kinda doesn't matter, but it can impact how smoothly the fight plays out based on spec

[dusky canopy]

Yeah our tanks are being told to have the tank soak right up against the existing flame witch I understand why but it is so fucked to get out of the heal absorbs, dodge tornadoes, and bait the new flames in the correct spot

All at the same time..

[cinder nova]

So tell them that.

[dusky canopy]

I think some of the team is making it harder though

Because they all greed positioning

[cinder nova]

That's gonna fuck your space.

[dusky canopy]

Sorta melee heavy comp

[cinder nova]

Extremley hard.

Also

Overheat should reserve closest spots for melee

Ranged need to go long

But if you're melee heavy... well.

[waxen frigate]

There used to be more tornados

[dusky canopy]

I mean bro without trying to sound to air headed I generally feel pretty confident in my ability to watch my feet and dodge shit

[waxen frigate]

Also I think a lot of people over stress baiting

[dusky canopy]

But this..

It is so fucked dude

[waxen frigate]

You do not have to bait that precisely

[dusky canopy]

We must have to many melee

[ashen coral]

It is not though

Because when you look at your survival, you look your "total health"

If you have 1000k hp basically, if your basic damage reduction is like 50% it is as if you had 2000k hp, when you add 15% dr from vers you multiply by 1/0.85, it doesn't depend on your previous damage reduction

The case where you are right is if your damage reduction is limited, you should spread them

But for a permanent damage reduction, 15% remains 15%, you will survive 15% better no matter how much dr you had, you don't have a "smaller gain"

But anyway let's agree to disagree or it will annoy others even more

[dusky canopy]

That’s good to know, our RL seems to think we need to be stacked dead nuts on the spot he wants us to be at

[waxen frigate]

Literally all that matters is you have an open line from middle to edge at the end

And ranged can go bait in old gaps too

So even if you have bad baits they can make up for it later

[waxen frigate]

That will just result in more tornado deaths therefore less prog and more wipes imo

Especially early in prog you just want to be seeing each intermission imo

Regardless of how clean it is

[dusky canopy]

We can make it past the 3rd lust intermission but half the team is dead every time so far

And the majority of deaths are the tornadoes

[waxen frigate]

Yep it was same for us

Plus orbs tbh

Ugh

[dusky canopy]

Orbs we do pretty well

[waxen frigate]

But that’s neutered now with 3 instead of 4

Way the fuck easier

[dusky canopy]

Few oops when the orb picks someone standing under the portal

But other than that orbs go very smooth for us

[waxen frigate]

Ya if they do that more than like once it’s them being stupid

Pretty sure they’re set spawns

[dusky canopy]

Yeah for sure, plenty of time to not be by a portal

[waxen frigate]

Idk though I’m just a brewmaster I was mentally checked out after about 5 pulls and figuring out all I need to do is CB + dampen or fort brew every tank slam

And that’s the entire fight for me

[cinder nova]

I- dude, it doesn't matter if it's still practical to do, it's still diminishing returns.

I know how the math works, but you aren't really saying anything that would be the proverbial spanner in the works by how it's defined.

[dusky canopy]

The fight is definitely easy to understand

Positioning seems to be the hurdle

[cinder nova]

And you're not reinventing the wheel with Vers. Stack it if you wish, but we're all telling you it's a suboptimal play.

[dusky canopy]

I guess it’s a “git gud” angle

[cinder nova]

Yeah. Reminds me of M Sark with a lot less moving parts