it's not hard
#protection
chilly brook
quiet monolith
The fact there is zero incentive to key passed 17 other than Io
Seems pretty dumb
bleak breach
^ agree
daring marlin
IO is more than sufficient of an incentive.
chilly brook
It's always been like that...
daring marlin
It's effectively a dick measuring contest.
quiet monolith
At least give cosmetics / mounts / cool shit for 2800/3k/3200
chilly brook
I mean like honestly they would be best off giving cosmetics
not gear
past a certain point
chilly brook
Gonna be honest
gear is the least interesting part of progression
that's not to say it shouldn't exist
quiet monolith
The mounts were dumb s1 and S2 and behind super easy io levels. I did like how they gave you an omnitoken for certain ranks... And could see that being an incentive for higher Io pushing
daring marlin
They think mythic raid should be the only way to get the best gear, basically.
And vault, I guess.
lusty grotto
oh yikes
quiet monolith
My own hot take is that mythic raiding after a certain point should scale to 10 man and be cross realm
chilly brook
"it's better than crafted because you had to do the content"
quiet monolith
Change the gear if need be, but tons of don't even do mythic raid content
chilly brook
when you had to do the content to get the stuff to craft crafted gear
daring marlin
And here I am. I think the 24-man in XIV should give savage raid equivalent gear.
chilly brook
🤔
lusty grotto
My own hot take is that mythic raiding after a certain point should scale to 10 ...
not a hot take, a lot of us agree
lusty grotto
And here I am. I think the 24-man in XIV should give savage raid equivalent gear...
at least savage variant w/e dungeons should
quiet monolith
Huge amount of content that I bet you most players don't even zone into
Because of server lockout and raid size
quiet monolith
Dragon flight in general made heroic raiding easier than ever... And then there was just nothing left for non mythic raiders
oblique garnet
Dragon flight in general made heroic raiding easier than ever... And then there ...
Thats just because the raids have been alot easier on heroic so far
cursive prawn
They think mythic raid should be the only way to get the best gear, basically.
Funny thing is, it’s already like this, unless I missed some 450 crafting hack
quiet monolith
My super casual idiot raid group was clearing heroic in two weeks for aberrus
lusty grotto
heroic being easier is a good thing
quiet monolith
Heroic was way more accessible but then mythic wasn't
So then you were just done
And farming same shit with no progression but gear
daring marlin
Funny thing is, it’s already like this, unless I missed some 450 crafting hack
based
quiet monolith
Also bring back personal loot... Getting tier drops for classes that aren't even in the raid is mad sadge
lusty grotto
and i mean you guys say "easier", but its still challenging for pugs, so i'd say they hit a good middle ground
bleak breach
Dunno, gear for me is my biggest incentive of prog. Outside the achievement itself, but I wouldn’t do mythic if there wasn’t better gear.
lusty grotto
Also bring back personal loot... Getting tier drops for classes that aren't even...
ima stop you right there
cause thats the only thing i disagree with
bring it back for LFR? yes
for everything else, no thanks
quiet monolith
Sucks to see things rot
oblique garnet
Next patch you are gonna get 3 pieces of tier on week 1 regardless of what you do
After clearing heroic that is
bleak breach
Sweaty week 1 Aotc people
oblique garnet
Well regardless of when you do it thats guaranteed 2 tier tokens + catalyst open on week1
pallid quiver
Gear is an incentive for me to stop playing the game.
Literally, no joke, I've stopped playing WoW more times because of gear and having to go fetch it than gear has ever motivated me to play.
I'd play and push even harder if gear didn't exist, because my reason for playing isn't to get gear
lusty grotto
theres a middle ground
like it shouldnt be extremely grindy to get, but it also shouldn't be handed out, does that make sense?
i dont think this season was that bad
in that particular sense
maybe gearing was a tad too quick, thats fair
novel temple
That’s what I’d argue against though. It feels bad doing m+ or lfr and not getting gear
lusty grotto
i just dont think it was so fast that people should be complaining about it though
idk i do keys to push io, not to get gear
novel temple
Possibly a bad luck protection per boss/m+/lfr boss
lusty grotto
gear is just something i need to do it
novel temple
I also hate how lfr is requiring old school rolls
lusty grotto
my biggest issue is making raid gear be the absolute best
novel temple
Same.
lusty grotto
while maintaining these dumbass raid obstacles
LIKE THE STUPID LOCKOUT
loot lock out is ok, instance/mythic lockout is NOT ok anymore
novel temple
People should reach an equal playing field through all paths of gear progression
lusty grotto
mythic should be crossrealm from day 1
chilly brook
like it shouldnt be extremely grindy to get, but it also shouldn't be handed out...
agreed
this season was pretty good
could it have been slower? yeah probably but generally I'd rather have gear be less of a barrier to play than the other way around
lusty grotto
instance lockout is just a relic of the past when servers actually mattered and getting a serverwide first was THE thing
its not anymore
its global
chilly brook
And again the problem with this season wasn't even the gear, people stopped playing because the lack of healers and god comp breaking the M+ scene
lusty grotto
yeah i agree with that
but i think people focus too hard on aug, instead of how SP's tools help have a slot secured in most groups
chilly brook
And once again, I will say it for the umpteenth time, the "problem" with crafting gear is that you can have too much of it, not it being a way to have determinitive BiS items
lusty grotto
like theres a multitude of things that go into it
chilly brook
but i think people focus too hard on aug, instead of how SP's tools help have a ...
oh 100%
in fact I love the fact that I can have a determinitive BiS item that I can get crafted
lusty grotto
and i still dont fucking understand why they havent rebuffed SP's damage after finally addressing MD and soothe
chilly brook
being able to get a shield early on in the season for example is so QoL
novel temple
And again the problem with this season wasn't even the gear, people stopped play...
Make healing specs more like final fantasy healing tbh
Deal damage and heal
lusty grotto
i wouldnt go that far
chilly brook
The problem with healing is they're doing the opposite of what they did with tanks
lusty grotto
they just need to smooth the curve in heal checks a bit on the mid level
chilly brook
They're putting the complexity into the actual healing and cooldown rotation, instead of making the healing portion more approachable and introducing complexity elsewhere
lusty grotto
yeah i agree
chilly brook
kind of like a tank, holding aggro isn't the difficult part, it's min maxing everything else you can do
lusty grotto
keys should just scale a bit easier on healers so they have an easier time adjusting to a higher key
chilly brook
like healing doesn't need to be more complex, it's already playing whackamole and has a huge amount of difficulty anyways
lusty grotto
and thats all done by tuning damage in keys, so nothing would affect raid healing
cerulean tusk
Often I find healers say this:
I don't heal a lot, or I am in a key where I can't heal enough.
In the context of it often being more about the group performance as a whole. Not as much overcoming the checks.
Kinda playing Vs your own team 
median tulip
being able to get a shield early on in the season for example is so QoL
💯 this. Mostly because our class design is so intrinsically based upon our Shield.
lusty grotto
yeah i mean
fucking hoping a shield drop from chest every week was painful
and im glad its kinda easier now thanks to crafting
oblique garnet
in fact I **love** the fact that I can have a determinitive BiS item that I can ...
No
Fuck that
Its way too expensive
lusty grotto
wym
chilly brook
I disagree
lusty grotto
gold wise you mean?
chilly brook
it's not very expensive at all
lusty grotto
its free for me 🙂
chilly brook
cheaper than legos lol
bleak breach
I just don’t like the idea of being able to craft all gear
bleak breach
Defeats the purpose of gear dropping from bosses
lusty grotto
but you cant craft all gear
chilly brook
not nerfed crafted gear
bleak breach
Or the lower ilvl is fine
chilly brook
chilly brook
idk
bleak breach
Can still get it all eventually
chilly brook
because it's inconvenient for their argument
bleak breach
This is no argument, just a difference in opinions.
We don’t have to agree, I just don’t think the ilvl gap is an issue at all.
Players doing mythic should be rewarded and that 3-4 ilvl gap is fine.
lusty grotto
but you ARE getting rewarded
chilly brook
you did content
lusty grotto
you are getting Aspects
cerulean tusk
There is a 3 ilvl gap, so we all happy - no?
chilly brook
There is a 3 ilvl gap, so we all happy - no?
6
chilly brook
not even 3 lol
bleak breach
It is 3…
chilly brook
it's not
cerulean tusk
486 Vs 489, 489 being mythic 4/4 no?
bleak breach
Yep
oblique garnet
cheaper than legos lol
Not even close
bleak breach
Which I don’t mind, it’s a reward for doing the hard stuff.
cerulean tusk
So everyone is happy 
bleak breach
Yeah fair call Late
lusty grotto
or close to it
cerulean tusk
I get free crafts, and I am a HC raider 
cerulean tusk
What is that?
bleak breach
I think the only crafted pieces I have right now are wrists and boots with shadowflame patch and a ring
lusty grotto
they are for sure an issue for my friends, they are 4k each
a little bit more than that
at least in NA
oblique garnet
they are for sure an issue for my friends, they are 4k each
Last i played they were 15k
cerulean tusk
15k 
bleak breach
Jesus
lusty grotto
i mean thats blizzards fault for making an xmutable item required like that
cerulean tusk
EU dont farm, we only buy
bleak breach
Definitely not anywhere near that for me
lusty grotto
and it being 300 fucking glowspores isnt making it any favors
its 4k-4.1k in NA
i know cause im gearing my alts so
and my friends alts
bleak breach
Mine are expensive because I don’t farm, I just buy wow tokens when I run out of gold lol
cerulean tusk
Out of legion gold?
lusty grotto
oh btw
i kinda found out last week
that the rep quests sometimes give you a bag of gold that is 14k
like the rep quest thingie in the middle of valdrakken
and the rep quest that gives you half a spark down in zaralek
its kinda random though
cerulean tusk
Doesn't seem worth it
lusty grotto
https://www.wowhead.com/item=202172/overflowing-satchel-of-coins this is the thing
15.9k
cerulean tusk
At least blizz uped the gold gains from purses. Used to be 200-500g 
cerulean tusk
Now I know who to woo to become my sponser when I run out myself
lusty grotto
lusty grotto
yeah theres some RNG involved
ebon lark
gold feels so pointless anymore when you just chuck 20 bucks at blizzard and get 400k in return
toxic pewter
sullen gust
Ayo, just wanted to put a message here as thanks. Hit my original goal of 3k io today with the tips and feedback from the discord, and managed it within 2 seasons through almost exclusively pugging. Yall be doin the lords work for scrubs like me, cheers bois
lavish sphinx
Congrats @sullen gust!
Still trying to work my way there on a laptop and pugging outside of peak times lol
jagged gust
My warr isnt even 3k. You own.
You'd probably be higher if you stopped using SS in aoe and spam revenge more 
lusty grotto
potent anvil
True
mighty valley
Ayo, just wanted to put a message here as thanks. Hit my original goal of 3k io ...
Congrats! Being a scrub is blaming the game for your errors and refusing to have a learning mindset - you're clearly not a scrub
brittle owl
i always thought scrub was present tense of to scrub
mighty valley
in the passenger's side? of MY best friend's ride??
jagged gust
Also known as a "buster"
modern brook
Scrub is the past tense of scribe tbh
ionic fern
Isn't scrub like..scrubbing something?
ionic fern
I just feel like at this point saying "You all are inferior to me" sounds better than "Ya'll scrubs".
gloomy ferry
what dungeons do we blow at
IK un-reflectable magic dmg isnt good for us but like what dung specifically is rough
jagged pier
we are fine against un-reflectble damage
pallid quiver
Uldaman's notable for the bleed on the basilisks, and the above
jagged pier
SR still mitigates it
pallid quiver
We're rough against frequent or non-stop magic rot or unblockable physical damage (bleeds)
jagged pier
what lvl key u doing?
gloomy ferry
only a weekly 17 im just under geared as fuck i did that pull on a 19 at 405 on my bear and it felt like nothing
i just dont know how much the dot would hurt
jagged pier
its a 17
bleak breach
Nelths lair is easy
jagged pier
it doesnt matter
gloomy ferry
i havent played warrior since end of bfa?
bleak breach
That’s our best dungeon
jagged pier
u dont even need to do that pull in like a 23
jagged pier
so doing its in a 17 dumb because ppl wont be able to handle it
gloomy ferry
I guess ye
bleak breach
Depends what you’re trying to achieve anyway
gloomy ferry
Just crest farming this warrior is just an old main im gearing as an alt for next tier
bleak breach
Can easily +2 17 just going pack to pack and skip whatever you need
Just depends what your group is capable of. Don’t overpull if they can’t keep up numbers wise or if they healer can’t pump enough to keep you up.
fickle gull
no warrior changes 😭 no banner, no shockwave baseline
bleak breach
Never would be, new tier is going to be too strong to get a major change.
Gameplay is smooth and fairly easy, we’re in a good spot. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
fickle gull
i wouldn't say too strong; u still have other tanks doing more dps than us aka bdk, brew
bleak breach
You talking now? Or in 10.2
fickle gull
10.2
bleak breach
We will be fine, will be interesting where everyone sits around 470 ish ilvl.
If we somehow struggle that will be when we get a rework of some sort.
pallid quiver
struggle bus life
bleak breach
I don’t think there will be any dramas
fickle gull
we're still very mid or will be upper mid compared to other tank specs. i would understand if prot warrior would do insane amounts of dmg given the absurd lack of utility, but that's not the case. i've pugged my way to 3k as prot and it has been a nuisance, even being denied from 20s NL or HoI is just insane
pallid quiver
how can i live life if i don't out parse the other tank specs
bleak breach
We will be 2nd or 3rd in overall dps and likely top single target. Survivability should be very comfortable with the tier bonus.
fickle gull
no lol
bleak breach
We have attack power buff, shockwave and rally in keys
That’s plenty
Intim shout too
jagged pier
fear - stormbolt - shockwave - sheild charge - shout if u want it - rally - wrecking throw/shattering throw if u want it
battle shout
jagged pier
no bro we have nothing its not fair
we also mitigate far more damage than any tank
and thats just going up next season
fickle gull
shield charge barely counts as any utility given u use it off cooldown with demo shout
fickle gull
its still very bad when looking at prot pala or to be honest even dk brings something more than ur doomer prot war
pallid quiver
why do ppl think we lack utility i still dont get this
It's because we lack cheese utility and the Cool Kids utility, like Lust/C Rez
bleak breach
Our issue for a rework is we’re too good to get one. If we got something really good we would be too good and then slowly nerfed to the ground anyway. I.e give both banners back or shockwave baseline doing damage again.
pallid quiver
even though we can handle a ton of mechanics literally on our own
jagged pier
even though we can handle a ton of mechanics literally on our own
no bro but we dont have grip
or self healing
bleak breach
Only thing I could see is maybe shockwave baseline but doing the little tickle it currently has
jagged pier
fickle gull
u dont take shockwave for dmg anyway lol
bleak breach
No, we used to and to be a really good aoe class we would need it or something else.
I hate the self healing argument
We take like a 1/4 of BDK damage lol
jagged pier
well yer but ppl are dumb
bleak breach
Yep
pallid quiver
and on top of that, indom healing's actually kinda nuts
bleak breach
If they gave us big self heals why play any other tank
pallid quiver
Especially for our damage intake
jagged pier
literally wouldnt need a healer
bleak breach
^
fickle gull
and again its not about having the cool kids tools of cr/lust, but warrior's performance is strictly based on how big ur spell reflect is most of the time
i play other tanks too thanks for that
bleak breach
SR is one of our really nieche abilities though
jagged pier
you just moved away from your original statement
fickle gull
the argument was never about prot warriors having more self sustain
jagged pier
as u said we lacked utility
fickle gull
its about lacking utility
jagged pier
but now not giving comparisions
sand pebble
Bring back party wall
bleak breach
^
jagged pier
nothing in here about utility
fickle gull
aka the only reason u bring a prot warrior
brittle owl
bring back vengeance + glad stance
fickle gull
look at NL or HoI
bleak breach
Don’t mind those tbh
brittle owl
bleak breach
I’m a big fan of glad stance and vengeance
jagged pier
nothing to do with utility its to do with the meta
bleak breach
Baseline shockwave would be nice too
fickle gull
never been a meta argument
warm plinth
Yeah Sense only gets to play war in HoI and NL 😦
gloomy ferry
the amount of spell reflect dmg is kinda cracked
jagged pier
but thats literally what u bought up
gloomy ferry
in nelths
jagged pier
the meta is bring the correct tank for the correct dungeon
fickle gull
i even compared it to prot pala's utility
gloomy ferry
i didnt know sunder was considered spell reflectable
fickle gull
the argument is that outside of the mentioned dungeons, you will never bring a prot warrior to ur key
sand pebble
What busted shit can we reflect in s3
fickle gull
regardless if its a +30 or +20
jagged pier
well u keep moving the goal posts around and just used genral statement of utility then u only bring warrior for 2 dungeons which again in the meta u do
i dunno
i get into 20s fine
🤷
warm plinth
Saying that prot war is only good if SR is good is ridiculous
fickle gull
"blame it on the people who follow tier lists or meta"
brittle owl
why are you arguing around 20s and 30s
gloomy ferry
What busted shit can we reflect in s3
WCM
fickle gull
"i get in 20s its fine it applies for everyone" nice way of making personal experience a stat
brittle owl
20s i can understand, but that's something that any tank can do with little to no issue
warm plinth
On the subject of WCM, I think we might be able to reflect every Lord cast now w/ 20 sec SR?
jagged pier
"i get in 20s its fine it applies for everyone" nice way of making personal expe...
u have more score than me
so u should find it easy too
brittle owl
30s though? why are you arguing at the edgecase
warm plinth
I think it was pretty close even before
jagged pier
i dont know
gloomy ferry
"i get in 20s its fine it applies for everyone" nice way of making personal expe...
I mean tbf and dont take this the wrong way but getting into a 20 is really easy on any spec for any individual
jagged pier
because thats where the meta counts
gloomy ferry
and if you're doing 30s you arent pugging
fickle gull
now that i have 3k yeah its a lot easier to get invited
gloomy ferry
you have a group
jagged pier
and he can make his utility arguement i guess
warm plinth
I'm not even close to 3k and I get invited to 20s just fine on all my toons and half of them are not meta
brittle owl
who cares about meta
fickle gull
again the argument is not about being meta, is about the utility u bring, and compared to any other tank, we're still far behind
jagged pier
most pugs do
brittle owl
they should be ashamed
jagged pier
well its all in one because your saying u dont get invited to 20s because u bring less utility
brittle owl
warr class fantasy isnt about utility
warm plinth
We have an aoe stop, an aoe stun, a single target stun, battle shout
No utility though
brittle owl
fuck utility, use it on yourself
warm plinth
smfh
fickle gull
that utility is also brought by a brew/prot pala
warm plinth
Okay?
jagged pier
oh u missed bdk this time
brittle owl
grips boi
jagged pier
well u keep saying they bring more
warm plinth
well you said we lack utilty compared to them
jagged pier
what more do they bring
warm plinth
utility*
fickle gull
cr, ring, monk buffs, grips, gorefiend, off heals as prot pala, sac, bop, do i keep on counting?
brittle owl
don't try to say warr should have a heal or an external or an immunity to throw around
fickle gull
amz
bleak breach
I definitely think there’s 2 very easy changes that could make us a lot better without being buster.
fickle gull
no thats not the case lol
brittle owl
i couldnt time it better
jagged pier
well u listed 3 tanks there
warm plinth
like utility is a weird ass argument for keys tbh because if you really need it, it'll get filled in somewhere
fickle gull
oh yeah sorry lets go head to head then
brittle owl
thats a scewed arguement
skewed*
warm plinth
It's the european spelling
bleak breach
1: revenge do X amount extra damage against 1 target.
2: shockwave baseline, but the issue is replacing the capstone which then does turn into a big change.
brittle owl
It's the european spelling <:keks:936231610850897992>
jakey isnt european anymore since the vote
jagged pier
based
warm plinth
He still lives in Europe you weirdo
brittle owl
i can mute u for that mael <:Pepexecute:595606525272391710>
CAN'T MUTE THE TRUTH
brittle owl
He still lives in Europe you weirdo
uk isn't europe it's an island
fkin NA brain
jfc
warm plinth
You wanna fight?
brittle owl
get a book ghash geez
brittle owl
can you teach ghash some geo?
warm plinth
I'm getting scared of this conversation because I feel like I'm quickly becoming unable to tell meme from actual thought
brittle owl
he needs it
warm plinth
I had a southwest chicken wrap 
and now I got a strawberry yogurt parfait
So fuck you guys
warm plinth
bullies
brittle owl
I had a southwest chicken wrap <a:hmmNod:940376932560822372> and now I got a str...
fat
warm plinth
what's fat
jagged pier
hey okay at least we dont put banana on pizza like some places in the EU
warm plinth
idc what you put on pizza as long as I don't have to eat it
Though tbh I could fuck with banana depending what it was with
ionic fern
jagged pier
brittle owl
Though tbh I could fuck with banana depending what it was with
ofc you would u perverted phuck
jagged pier
ionic fern
warm plinth
that looks good
jagged pier
ionic fern
I lost all respect i had for you Ghash.
jagged pier
same
warm plinth
It took you this long?
bleak breach
Anyone find there’s a lot of rng in our pulls as prot?
warm plinth
RNG like what
jagged pier
nope
bleak breach
Obviously all classes have it, just looking from some of my recent single target fights and there’s reasonable differences. Same gear and talents obviously.
brittle owl
? you mean rng in terms of damage?
warm plinth
And you're sure it's not just inconsistent gameplay?
bleak breach
Yeah sorry, damage related.
jagged pier
beacon cits baby
bleak breach
Fair
brittle owl
usually procs and stuff account for 5% ish generally
idk if this expac has stupid procs
bleak breach
And you're sure it's not just inconsistent gameplay?
Na, all about consistency 😉
warm plinth
Mael did you see what they did to our poor rezan's gleaming eye
bleak breach
Could just be a bit of beacon and good RNG I guess.
brittle owl
nop
warm plinth
It's a shit bleed instead of a haste proc now 😦
bleak breach
Yeah lol
There’s a few proc on attack trinks, will be interesting which one we take.
brittle owl
theres manor now?
warm plinth
in s3 yeah
brittle owl
nice
warm plinth
AD, WCM, shit Throne from Cata, Everbloom from WoD, DHT and BRH from Legion
and the megadungeon halves
brittle owl
cata 🤢
warm plinth
There's only like 3 cata dungeons that won't suck horribly in M+
(assuming proper tuning)
But they keep picking the most boring ones
warm plinth
Probably. The trash after gauntlet almost certainly will be ass
bleak breach
Yep
warm plinth
I hope we get some info on the scaling soon
I imagine we'll go back to 10% across the board
and a hefty base scale since we're getting a tier and a half worth of gear
brittle owl
But they keep picking the most boring ones
i.e. all of em?
except the open space crock one i guess
but even that one is a shittier freehold
warm plinth
BRC, Stonecore, Deadmines
opaque quest
and a hefty base scale since we're getting a tier and a half worth of gear
Make it way harder so not every pleb can get 3k boosts plsty
pallid quiver
Probably. The trash after gauntlet almost certainly will be ass
The trash before Timeways will probably be pretty rough for pugs, sand trash will be terrible, and that last trash pack will gank a few uncoordinated pugs probably
opaque quest
That trash is already killing pugs in +0. Gonna be pain
Especially tanks getting zeroed in 0.1 seconds cause they underestimate their dmg
gloomy ferry
The trash before Timeways will probably be pretty rough for pugs, sand trash wil...
honestly dont think DOTI trash will be hard
I think people aer only gonna struggle on bosses and the 2 add pulls before 3rd boss in first half other then that bosses are the most dangerous i feel by a long shot
opaque quest
Trash on 2nd boss platform with double debuff and nerfed healers + nerfed MD tho
gloomy ferry
maybe the dragons? but you know the dmg is coming and you can set up CDS for it
opaque quest
Healers are being gutted in 10.2
gloomy ferry
in what way
opaque quest
Look at the WoWhead post. Heals across the board are nerfed especially in aoe heals
gloomy ferry
i dont think healers are being "gutted" tho
healers arent really complaining about that specifically and all healers do is complain its part of the job
lapis breach
"don't stand in the fire"
Big Boy tanks can handle standing in the fire (shield wall, couple of cooldowns, just to show off you can do it!)
opaque quest
6 tokens from vault
gloomy ferry
All i hear is healers complaining how they can't keep up with the damage intake.
in what?
opaque quest
Intake is fine in itself. Its just so bursty and deleting ppls health bars with 1 GCD then we pump 50k heals lmao
ionic fern
M+
opaque quest
20+
ionic fern
High.
pallid quiver
Yeah, M+ appears to be the bigger issue, since raid a lot of heal CDs seem kinda stronk from everything I can tell
opaque quest
Everything below 20 is childs play
gloomy ferry
because theres a point where it's gonna suck to heal because its meant to but 20s to like 24s healing really doesnt need an unhealable amount of healing
opaque quest
Ye if ppl use a personal
Have you healed Ulda snek in 23?
The debuff ticks for 250k
Combine that with a stomp
Every few seconds
gloomy ferry
yea but with externals it does a lot less it also depends what class gets it in terms of gear type
gloomy ferry
it depends i dont know shamans current talent layout and i forget if the dot is magical if its magic you use earthen shield and you can riptide into healing wave/surge spam or chain heal. If its dot into slam you'd SLINK it if it is phyiscal you can stoneskin+shield and keep them healed you also have ascendence etc
can save a juiced cloudburst for it specifically as well if you need more help then that. it also isnt entirely on you if someone dies without pressing a wall thats also on them
opaque quest
Im gonna save a juiced cloudburst for a debuff that comes every few seconds. Sure. I also dont have a GCD for Earth shield or riptide that each heal 10k on a 300k dot
I know youre trying to help here but there is a reason the only viable heal is holy pala
I also cant use ascendance/link/tide that each have 3 mins CD for a 2 min fight that has 20 debuffs
gloomy ferry
no but you cycle you shouldnt be spamming them
opaque quest
You didnt get the point. Got it. We end the argument here
gloomy ferry
alright good to know thats where you end conversations
rapid echo
is there a situation where we would liike to cancelaura last stand for the set buff ?
jagged pier
doesnt work
rapid echo
i observed that, its nice indeed
opaque quest
can you still LS before key starts
Yes and you should
Same works with WoO for Monk
And spirits for enh
warm plinth
you're not my dad
pallid quiver
That's because you're your own dad
opaque quest
Like fry
blazing condor
som oedipus shit
blazing condor
i got that one last week
opaque quest
Lets goo
opaque quest
gz to you too kind sir
blazing condor
"farming" it was also like 5 runs 😄
opaque quest
I dropped horridon a year ago when i wanted a staff from him. I dont farm mounts usually. Was just mad that i got underrot mount on my roommates acc yesterday and had to show him
blazing condor
lol
yeah i havent done like any old content since i was a kid
used to farm back then
but started doing it now cus i aint got shit else to do
jagged pier
only thing i farmed was tusks
opaque quest
I gave up on tusks
blazing condor
holy text size
opaque quest
Its only on the achieve frame for some reason
blazing condor
i wish i did all pandaria CMs
but at least i have a few portals
which is honestly nice to get to SoO
jagged pier
i was not good enough back then
wish i did CMs tho
paided at least
but also had no gold
pallid quiver
"not good enough back then"
jagged pier
XD
opaque quest
I have all the Sets except mage but all the chars with the portals are on alliance so i no longer got them
pallid quiver
that feels bad since i have panda CM junk
blazing condor
they werent THAT hard ppl just werent used to having to strat out dungeons
and do them in time
jagged pier
"not good enough back then"
hey i did wod ones and prot was the worst tank by far for them
pallid quiver
I skipped all of WoD
blazing condor
i remember we did mogushan palace and someone was like "now you pop invis pot" i was like ????
pallid quiver
I could have been as good as Jakey if I didn't let myself go to sh-
opaque quest
I was only good in MoP lmao
pallid quiver
Oof
I was literally never a clicker; like 10 year old me or however old I was in 2006 thought that was for nerds
jagged pier
i did try but i was the in equiverlent of a HC guild at the time we were just not good enough to time CMs
pallid quiver
i couldn't understand the concept of using a mouse since my first games were consoles
blazing condor
why cant i use the SoO scroll
opaque quest
I started with a mix of clicking and hotkeys
Back in 2005
Then over the years added more hotkeys
jagged pier
why cant i use the SoO scroll
u need the achieve
blazing condor
but ive done it the past 2 weeks
opaque quest
But with Brew im back to clicking some shit like 2 min trinkets or 2:30 wep
jagged pier
🤷
blazing condor
opaque quest
Does the skip still DC?
blazing condor
nop
opaque quest
<:ZOOMEReyes:721123810992062506>
opaque quest
Possible. Thought its all of us since there are so many posts about it
jagged pier
couldnt find out which one
blazing condor
probably very common one in that case
opaque quest
Might aswell be Elvui since its used by so many
blazing condor
i swear the raids are bugged
now i could skip
but i had to go out > put raid on hc > put raid on normal > put raid back to mythic > go back
then it worked
opaque quest
Raids are omega bugged. I cant set 25HC when im with a friend. I always need to give him lead cause my shit stays normal even tho there is a skull on the portal and all
blazing condor
yeah same
did blood infusion with a friend
we couldnt even load into the same raid
despite being in group
blazing condor
think they just fixed it
opaque quest
Garrosh? Ye think so too
blazing condor
no tusks
opaque quest
blazing condor
also when did they rework headless horseman?
considering ive killed him since i was like 9 and now i got a feat of strength for it
blazing condor
actual mechanics
blazing condor
sadge
pallid quiver
also when did they rework headless horseman?
This event, actually, iirc
blazing condor
This event, actually, iirc
o
jagged pier
get up for 5 mins and miss juice
jagged pier
that would be bad
pallid quiver
but it'd be funny tho
blazing condor
potato pc problem but the fact that zaralek has to load
when you fly into it
i got stuck behind the rock wall for 15 seconds
pallid quiver
I don't even have a potato PC and sometimes the game just forgets to load until I'm halfway through the cavern
and i run face first into the rock wall
blazing condor
my pc isnt even bad either tbf
pallid quiver
and i have to rethink my life decisions
pallid quiver
like i rock everything in 4k kinda not potato pc on my end
jagged pier
the retails server been shitting themselves since hc and icc release
probs because they getting less resources
and only dream
they probably just shit
jagged pier
surely
blazing condor
crazy how people can still struggle on sark
this late
with multiple curved players
opaque quest
People still struggle in dawn on first boss
ofc they struggle on sark
Also curve means nothing
You can get a sark HC boost for 25k
blazing condor
thats why i specified multiple curved
you got a full group of like 9/9 + 5/9+ m
and they dont know anything about anything
just interesting
jagged pier
5/9 mythic now is easy
blazing condor
at this point in the patch
it shouldnt be a struggle on hc sark
but its always like that cus of ppl
but feels like comparatively to other end bosses in prev patches
this one is way hard
for ppl
hardy snow
what "pont in the patch" have to do with people not being good at game?
were they worse two months ago and now they should be good?
blazing condor
well usually ppl get better at the raid with time
all im saying is that compared to other raids i wipe more on sark pugs than otherwise
median tulip
In my experience the average level of player skill in a given content level trends downwards over time, as less skilled people catch up to max ilvl
blazing condor
yeah maybe
i usually dont farm the raid near the end
so youre right
but doing it now cus i came back late
lavish sphinx
Sark HC is for sure harder than Raz HC
Way less space and more coordination needed
opaque quest
Might be harder but rasz was 15 mins. To long for idiots to focus
lavish sphinx
Agree with that
sick sentinel
15 minutes of pure unbroken concentration is an eternity
thats why, 15 minutes means you can only have like 4-5 attempts an hr
and then if you know you only got 3 hrs to raid with guild ans that boss is like impossible to your guild ans you kewp wiping on it... cant feel good man
cuz like now you know, logging on for raid night that youve got 15 attempts or so that take forever each before raid leader has to go pick up pizza for family dinner aome crap
vs this giant unkillable dragon with a trillion hp
opaque quest
15 minutes of pure unbroken concentration is an eternity
I have done Garrosh HC in 10 Man. Ive had 22 minutes of unbroken focus. Nothing can break me now
sick sentinel
and theres larry over there constantly responding to work emails so he stands in the fire and ah, hes deas, gotta restart the attempt
sick sentinel
alls im saying is its a giga filter for some players and it shoupd be indicated in someway that thats gunna happen late in the raid like first or second boss does something ominous forbpding warning has fuckloads of hp or transitions
opaque quest
Na i agree . Rasz was just to long. Im doing sark every week on multiple chars but can count on one hand how many times i did thunder chicken
sick sentinel
like, oh fuck, that happened on this boss, maybe it will happen again
nome is a physical training helper type person, just ask him how difficult it is to run on a treadmill for 15 minute vs for 5-10 minute
ionic fern
@strong forum , how hard is it to run on a treadmill for 15 minutes vs 10 minutes?
opaque quest
Now we are asking the real questions
strong forum
Exhaustion grows exponentially and is also a mental battle
If you're used to running 15 min shouldn't prove all that problematic
The human mind usually checks out after 10 minutes however
sweet summit
time is relative, the faster you run the harder it is 
opaque quest
Did you guys know that ion is in division 2
strong forum
(no clue if its true but it does sound smart doesn't it)
ionic fern
(no clue if its true but it does sound smart doesn't it)
Je, i would have almost believed you without a doubt, but now you sent this message which makes it sus.
strong forum
grim pilot
Exhaustion grows exponentially and is also a mental battle
If you're used to run...
Cap, it’s 33% harder
strong forum
That is kinda how it does work
opaque quest
Just do it
inland raft
Real talk though stop running and do bike or rowing machine or elliptical or pretty much anything else
Inefficient cardio thats bad on the knees, also fuck cardio anyways
jagged pier
its not bad on your knees if u run on like grass or a track
which is what your supposed to do but ppl dont
sweet summit
why don't humans evolve to have knees that can handle running on harder grounds? checkmate atheists
inland raft
Common misconception, that mitigates the risk but more and more studies showing it doesnt matter its the high impact nature as well as since we evolved as long distance runners our bodies are efficient at it and it expends very little energy making it inefficient excercise
Our bodies also tend to prioritize burning muscle over other fuel sources while running
nimble skiff
How did you all upgrade and graduate from a paper tank to a real tank?
I've always been intimidated to tank but I want to maybe try and learn how to do it. Do I just look up m+ routes and full send? Is there any sort of notes or tips I can look at for an idea of where to start learning
sick sentinel
always were
tried to do prot paladin in 2004 vanilla
after that failed, went rogue till end of wrath
then i went prot warrior till panda, then i quit then i come back in bfa as pwar then i never quit
final mist
First thing is to focus on micro play; what are you doing correctly, what are you doing wrong, what do you need to do to fix that (practice, maybe some weakauras for reminders, etc). Proper personal play until the point where it's muscle memory or something you no longer have to actively think about is much more helpful in the long run than anything else.
strong forum
Tanking is just smth you just start doing because you're fed up with shit tanks.
It has less to do with routes and moreso being aware what is happening around you and your group.
jagged pier
How did you all upgrade and graduate from a paper tank to a real tank?
I've alw...
Time and practice, u dont need to learn routes ither they all jusg go forward now
final mist
There's tons of ways to run every dungeon, and tbh unless you're pushing super high keys, practicing and improving microplay is going to serve you better in the long run - if you're completing the 17 in 25 mins or 30 mins, there's no difference
nimble skiff
Is there a balance I need to learn between dps and defensives? I'm assuming I need to learn when to go dstance vs battle stance?
strong forum
Not rly
Tanks are built in a way these days where optimal defensive play
Is damn near close to optimal offensive play
final mist
You will very rarely ever leave Battle Stance
strong forum
If you figure out how to do really good dmg as tank, you automatically have found how to be defensive
final mist
Unless you're super undergeared or there's some fuckhuge nasty magic tank slap, you're in it 99.99% of the time
nimble skiff
I think my intimidation goes back to when I tried to tank in vanilla and felt incredibly rage starved and felt like mobs were running everywhere, lol
strong forum
The balance one has to find is just knowing where what will hurt you and to use shield wall
You gotta know every single mob every single boss every single pull
jagged pier
well then u were playin wrong in classic
nimble skiff
Not classic, vanilla the og before it was mathed out and theory crafted to the moon and back and anyone knew any better
strong forum
Tanking nowadays is NOTHING like back in the olden days
You're practically just a tanky dps
Playstyle wise
jagged pier
i mean even back then, I didnt have any issues because we were all bad back then
and it really was press sunder on each target
ggs
strong forum
Tank legendaries when
jagged pier
strong forum
But yeah tanking is mostly just an awareness game
Grab threat, keep threat, keep your rotation going
nimble skiff
I guess it's just more research and knowing what abilities do what from mobs/ bosses
strong forum
If you're comfortable with your class you kinda learn that stuff on the go
You do the dungeon
You see what mob does
GG
Atleast that's how it works for me
final mist
And if the game doesn't drastically change enough, you can take a 4 year break and come back and still kick ass as hard as you did before
strong forum
The real tanking begins once you don't need to think about what button you should press next
Before that you're just trying to juggle multiple things
sick sentinel
sick sentinel
i need this
final mist
That's why I suggested practicing and making the spec feel second nature before anything else
strong forum
It's always the most important thing
final mist
It's much easier to learn routes and tips and tricks when you arent focused on learning how to play
nimble skiff
Fair. That's a good point
I guess it's just a matter of putting myself out there and giving it a shot. Maybe I'll just send it on the 5 weekly heroic dungeons to start and see how badly I do
sick sentinel
general rule of tanking is, your job is to prevent dmg, so, if you didnt kick the spell that does the most dmg, you werent doing your job
half true
groups will yell at you for this if you dont is what i mean
inland raft
I mean thats just playing wow. Tank tis just dps that also makes the pulls
final mist
There are lots of helpful addons and weakauras that you can use to help yourself
Reminders, trackers, etc
sick sentinel
like, kicking in dps minds and healer is MORE of a tank job
cuz tank already does low dps
final mist
Also don't be afraid to ask for help, and helping yourself (and getting help from others) is vastly easier if you're logging things
sick sentinel
so it SHOULD be the tank making the sacrifice to be in position, ready to kick and not fuck it up
final mist
like, kicking in dps minds and healer is MORE of a tank job
That's just a bad player mentality
inland raft
Kicks are a group effort
nimble skiff
I'm a kick bot in my guild, gotta parse kicks
inland raft
Literally no less or more important for any role
Kicks are off the gcd and instant nobody loses dps kicking
sick sentinel
they used to get mad at me 2004 vanilla to wrath for "not kicking" as a rogue
inland raft
But will lose dps dying becauae they didnt kick
sick sentinel
i know this happened in tbc kara at least
inland raft
Well rogues back then were the kickers
sick sentinel
it also happened in icc
nimble skiff
Last question is how bad is it to let shield block fall off? I was trying to get a feel for my keybinds and move things around but I noticed my shield block fell a couple of times
inland raft
Shield block should never ever fall off
nimble skiff
Okay. Good to know I'm a bad
sudden grotto
shield block basically makes u tanky
no shield block makes u bad
also dont turn ur back on enemies , u only block if u're facing them, cant block from the back
nimble skiff
Back to my dps glory where I can smash my keyboard with no responsibility
sick sentinel
SB = SS + 30%
sudden grotto
sideways is fine, u still block as long as in a 180 radius in front of u
nimble skiff
I knew that much, lol
inland raft
Be surprised how many dont
sick sentinel
any time you can SS enemy you want SB up
nimble skiff
Again, thanks for all the replies
I think I'll just go for the heroics weekly and see how it goes. I'm sure that once I get some experience it'll start to get smoother
I think I'll have to farm a shield and weapon from the dream surge first though, lol
inland raft
Shield is number one important piece
Easier to tank as prot with a high ilvl shield and no armor then bis gear and low shield
nimble skiff
Actually, how often should I be last standing cause of the set bonus?
sudden grotto
pmuch off cd
nimble skiff
Like is that something you roll often? I always thought those CDs were just oh shit buttons
inland raft
More or less on cd ya
jagged pier
prot warrior doesnt have oh shit buttons
inland raft
And no prot is all about proactive
final mist
Like is that something you roll often? I always thought those CDs were just oh s...
The thing you will learn with Warrior is that we don't have "OH shit" buttons
sudden grotto
as a tank u'll learn that u dont press defensives for "oh shit", u press defensives to prevent "oh shit" cuz u know when damage comes
jagged pier
not reactive
inland raft
If youve taken the damage already you played wrong you hit them before the damage comes in
nimble skiff
Damn. I'm more of a reactive player
uneven mason
Damn. I'm more of a reactive player
BDK is the tank for you
sudden grotto
i'd say the most "reactive" tank playstyle is brewmaster
jagged pier
then play bdk
final mist
We just don't have any reactive tools like Death Strike or Frenzied Regeneration; if we don't hit Shield Wall or Spell Reflection or something before a big hit, they aren't going to help much afterwards
nimble skiff
My guild needed a warrior since the one we had quit for IRL reasons, so I said I would take up the mantle
final mist
It's not hard, you just need to train yourself to recognize that you need to be using buttons before damage happens
uneven mason
I mean you'll be fine just gotta learn damage profiles
inland raft
Well in raid especially all your defensives are scripted
nimble skiff
I was just looking to learn to tank for something new to learn on the side and maybe run keys with it
opaque quest
We just don't have any reactive tools like Death Strike or Frenzied Regeneration...
Impending victory
nimble skiff
Try to push myself to be a better player
final mist
Impending victory
Shut up
uneven mason
Arguing with Sal
final mist
IV is a good tool, but it's not a reliably reactive tool like DS or FR and you can't rely on it to he a reactive player the way the other tank specs can, nor does it do nearly the same thing
Trying to pretend it's in the same boat as DS is hilariously and objectively wrong
opaque quest
Weird. Never said its the same
little ermine
man, if IV was in the same league as DS it would be completely broken
final mist
It's weird then, because I said we don't have reactive tools like the other tanks' reactive mitigation tools, which are their primary ways of dealing with damage, so idk why you pinged me with IV when it wasn't in the convo
nimble skiff
Is druid reactive as well?
opaque quest
IV is reactive. I never said its like DS
jagged pier
Is druid reactive as well?
50/50
uneven mason
Is druid reactive as well?
They're middle
uneven mason
They have great recovery as well as great mitigation
uneven mason
But it's not 95% mit like warriors
little ermine
we can't have reactive tools when we have some much pro active tools
if every tank could do everything, it would be boring playstyle wise
opaque quest
What about pala
nimble skiff
Fair. I'm just a dps for raid which is where I'm most comfortable. Just looking to learn my class fully
opaque quest
Not perma block but lots of armor lots of block still and heal :>
uneven mason
we can't have reactive tools when we have some much pro active tools
if every t...
I heard paladins are getting heroism in 11.0, part of Metzen's contract
little ermine
the active mitigation from SotR is only armor, it's nowhere near as good as shield block
final mist
IV is reactive. I never said its like DS
IV is reactive, and it's not going to save you, and it's also not comparable to the tools I was talking about, which was the point I was making, which is the thing you responded to with
opaque quest
<:critcake:984549832511344640> I heard paladins are getting heroism in 11.0, par...
Metzen will fix everything
little ermine
<:critcake:984549832511344640> I heard paladins are getting heroism in 11.0, par...
just need a ranged dps spec and they're done
blazing condor
metzen is kidnapped and imprisoned by the abominable Greench
opaque quest
Greench leaves blizz on 1.1.24
uneven mason
IV is reactive, and it's not going to save you, and it's also not comparable to ...
☝️if you're relying on iv to save you, you fucked up already
uneven mason
just need a ranged dps spec and they're done
Can't ret use 80% of their abilities at 20yards?
Just give them some sort of legend of Zelda "sword laser" as their auto attack
little ermine
Can't ret use 80% of their abilities at 20yards?
yeah, but I was thinking of something more akin to the old mageladin thing
imagine conjuring massive hammers made of light
FF style
waxen frigate
the active mitigation from SotR is only armor, it's nowhere near as good as shie...
Doesn’t it also give parry chance with talents
Or do you not take those
little ermine
nope, you're thinking of Avenger's Shield
Shield of the Righteous is the holy power spender
waxen frigate
I thought it gave something more than armor
Is their block chance just always the same
strong forum
Sotr is just armor
little ermine
there is a talent to increase the chance to block spells by 10%
strong forum
Redoubt is what increases block chance
waxen frigate
Ah
waxen frigate
I was gonna say I know there’s something
And then obv standing in consecrate
For mastery and whatnot
little ermine
and the only time (that i remember) that SotR gave more block chance is the Sepulcher set bonus
waxen frigate
That might also be what I was thinking
little ermine
Redoubt is what increases block chance
redoubt is more strength and stamina
waxen frigate
Since that’s when I last played prot pala
strong forum
Ah
little ermine
personnaly i find the prot paladin to be a bit worse in DF than it was in S3 and S4 of SL (feeling wise)
waxen frigate
Agreed
strong forum
Well yeah
little ermine
The removal of HP from AS
+10000%
strong forum
They didn't have to re-invrnt new tiersets to replace the SL tierset
So they could just go balls to the wall
Df tiersets have to start small
little ermine
yeah, and with the increase block chance, you felt really tanky (kinda like warrior againt blockable damage)
waxen frigate
Yea s1 tiersets were explicitly minimalistic
little ermine
I don't understand how someone at blizzard could think that designing a tier set around consecration would be a good idea
waxen frigate
I don't understand how someone at blizzard could think that designing a tier set...
My brother in Christ
They’ve given windwalkers auto attack tier sets
2 tiers in a row
little ermine
i know i know