for whatever reason wow ping always sucks
#protection
crude notch
why not?
sick sentinel
dusky canopy
im so used to being a horde player that when im doing my MC run I (on my now dwarf) will go to SW and take the portal to twilight highlands (witch is farther than SW) to then fly to MC... lol
I just now realized this after about 2 months or w/e
odd trail
So I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this question but I would like to hear everyone's opinions on this
What is a good race for prot ? ( I'm asking for racial abilities)
daring marlin
So I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this question but I would like to...
dorf
toxic pewter
Vulpera hands down
dusky canopy
Stoneskin is invaluable along with that you get 2% crit rating
odd trail
I like trolls lol I like their racials and I forget what dwarfs do again for the racial
dusky canopy
Stoneskin
daring marlin
stoneform op
dusky canopy
removes almost all debuffs
odd trail
Oh yeah lol
That even like debuffs that bosses give you that you sometimes have to like tank swap?
toxic pewter
I like trolls lol I like their racials and I forget what dwarfs do again for the...
Trolls awesome prot warr race, Berserking and in combat healing are great. Also lower duration of slows and roots and crap on you . Can't go wrong with Troll, that my first warrior race
odd trail
Yeah I know it bleeds are pretty bad I main a troll rock warrior as my very first warrior because I like berserking and I thought the combat healing was great when I first made it cuz I did go through all of the classes back when I started this character almost 10 years ago lol And I felt like trolls were the one at the time but I'm seeing different things now as I am a veteran player lol
dusky canopy
Race doesnt really matter anymore
you can pretty much play w/e you want
theyre all within 1%
toxic pewter
Taz'Dingo!!!
odd trail
True, I just like the idea kind of feels like when you talk about racials or what perks some have and some don't It kind of feels like you're actually in the game if that makes any sense lol
dusky canopy
RP with whatever looks coolest to you 😄
trolls good
dwarfs good
orcs good
humans good
etc
toxic pewter
Vulpera good
odd trail
True I also don't play on any RP servers I just play on PVP servers more and I just feels nice when you play the game and you're just relaxing and you're going through a dungeon or raid and you Have this feeling that you're just having fun enjoying the time regardless of the difficulty
dusky canopy
wasnt it Sanctum where the RWF guilds were having people use goblin?
yeah to get around painsmith ball wall
dusky canopy
True I also don't play on any RP servers I just play on PVP servers more and I j...
I envy that
odd trail
I will admit though I have yet to tank on mythic difficulty for raids I've always done healing or DPS so I can't quite know how that is.
sick sentinel
TRIGGER WARNING for tank players 20:50 mark, 
💀 yogi moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H07ScHtmlgE
and then died to not managing the reflect ability on final boss, is the entire process of how i join and do a key, namely lair
pallid quiver
no he means the range obvs
wooden widget
Less range. Two charges. No Dam. Final offer
lusty tiger
it would be sick to jump around on war and have your leap nuke things
some skill based damage nuance
dusky canopy
agree would be fun
lusty tiger
2pc- heroic leap casts a tc at the location
4pc- avatar resets heroic leap
thats my final offer
crude notch
wtf
wooden widget
One extra tc every 30 seconds seems under tuned
How bout heroic leap casts thunderclap every 5 seconds for 30 seconds
lusty grotto
so i just
found out
that Harkclaw fixate whirlwind is player speed based
so i freedomed a warrior tank as fixate targetted me
and the fucking whirlwind zoomed into me at mount speed
i have a clip too
ebon wren
Stoneskin is invaluable along with that you get 2% crit rating
it's 2% extra damage, not rating. that would be ridiculous
dusky canopy
tru yes
sick sentinel
what about casting avatar casts TC every 5 seconds while active
if we are coming up with cracked out ideas about ability changes
toxic pewter
i m apb
lusty tiger
heroic leap reduces ravager CD by 10 seconds for each enemy hit up to 1 minute
so 6 mobs is max value
vocal verge
Demo shout empowers one of your next abilities. Shield slam, revenge or tclap, ignore pain. Enter op empowerments.
sick sentinel
Also am not mario
Typically if I jump on enemy they kill me instead of reverse
Heroic kick maybe, like Duke nukem mighty foot, spammable melee low dmg forward kick, kinda cc, can be used while using other attacks
uneven mason
Heroic kick maybe, like Duke nukem mighty foot, spammable melee low dmg forward ...
The level of giggles discovering you could "equip" the kick as your weapon and hold down the melee attack button to glide around double kicking
sick sentinel
Was possible to place over 50 pipe bombs and they would literal ladder stacking
uneven mason
A genre evolving game for sure
dusky canopy
Wait i just read that morgan day said pings are coming to wow?
so like we can spam ??? at people in keys!?
ebon wren
i dont play ping games, whats it do?
dusky canopy
you can keybind a "ping" like a ! or ? or an arrow etc
it allows you to mark a spot for others
so in league what people will do when they dont like something youre doing
is spam ??? on your champs feet
ebon wren
oh boy
south zealot
what
orchid mural
woohoo, reached my .io goal for the season, big thanks to the folks here for patience for stupid questions 🙂 @strong forum thx!
orchid mural
emberon is so broken
u can reflect searing clap fyi, that makes it easier
modern gazelle
if you recraft something do you need a new spark of shadowflame?
crude notch
no darling
modern gazelle
no darling
cool thanks, wasnt sure cause it shows one glowing when i do the recast order couldnt tell if it was using the old or saying its using the one in my inv
tame jasper
woohoo, reached my .io goal for the season, big thanks to the folks here for pat...
Congratz 🙂
valid hinge
Helping friends catch up since they came back to wow, been learning to tank. I didn’t realize until today the tank has to get eaten by the frog as well on hoi
I thought the lil frogs were enough lol
lusty grotto
you dont get to be eaten
if you spell reflect
remember to check out the reflectable / blockable list on the pins
valid hinge
Yeah I learned that too
lusty grotto
but right, you need to be under the frog
valid hinge
I also don’t understand why the crocodiles in ulda hit so hard
Can they be face tanked with a good bleed cleanse?
Chomp is nutty
lusty grotto
you can kite the chomp cast and then go back to them
and/or stun
and/or fear
you can also parry the chomp
if you're high crit, it helps
but yeah any bleed removal helps out if you can't manage the rest
grave sorrel
and/or fear
Does spamming IP on a 20 Fort helps? So far I am still new to this tank and this works for a 15 non-fort. I'm just thinking minimum movements would be better in general
And btw do you guys have any tips how to gather the Ulda first pull all the way to those 3 crocs? I get depleted even with shield block and demo shout out 😂
hardy snow
And btw do you guys have any tips how to gather the Ulda first pull all the way ...
use charge/leap so you dont run with mobs right behind you hitting you in back, use CDs to survive till healer catches up and pumps you
restive scroll
And btw do you guys have any tips how to gather the Ulda first pull all the way ...
You can also walk backwards, and kite a little bit, rely on stuns/slow to get less than 3 stacks
crude notch
followup you're right, they did make it so chromie time is going to level 61. Also, @proper roost they're adding an explanation of what chromie time is when you talk to her.
sick sentinel
so like we can spam ??? at people in keys!?
im quitting wow
ionic fern
For the..4th time?
crude notch
I think it's a cool added feature.
I know there will be cases of abuse
but I do think it can be helpful
Especially in overcoming language barriers.
crude notch
you're quitting and apb is quitting if we get any df dungeons in s3,
sick sentinel
was a time i lapsed for few weeks or day
crude notch
it's gonna be quiet in here
sick sentinel
mostly i quit in panda cuz it seemed like the right thing to do at that time
all my real life friends topped playing, andit was really different from 2004
i though the df dungeons are really good for most part
hey, no under rots or plague falls
besides, no law against quitting wow 4 times or rejoining a discord a few times
karmic stream
besides neltharus weapon what else should i focus on improving?
karmic stream
:d wy panda :<<<
strong forum
generally just get more ilvl
and maybe aim to replace trinkets with raid trinkets
especially vial
sick sentinel
i swear wow chat, party/raid chat included, is better than wow itself
all the stupid crap people talk about and get angry about
harsh light
In freehold Has anyone done the Cannon tech? Or is it too risky unless your a pally? Trying to squeeze more time in proggn these 23/24s
strong forum
do you mean the shit they abuse to get a +29 timed?
or just do last boss -> pull 1 pack into the cannon barrage and kill pack
cuz thats generally normal strat for push keys
jagged gust
besides neltharus weapon what else should i focus on improving?
Aren't the stats on that cloak kinda ick?
strong forum
but not at all required
sick sentinel
"Clever use of game mechanics"
strong forum
it is clever use of game mechanics
isnt the first time they do that stuff for MDI / TGP
sick sentinel
i come from doom, and monster infighting is totally a + to me
strong forum
but nobody should look at that and think "yeah ill do that on live keys"
sick sentinel
whatever i can do to save ammo and let them fight amongst themselves
pallid quiver
but nobody should look at that and think "yeah ill do that on live keys"
Meanwhile, the group of people who struggle to clear 15s in the best available gear:
harsh light
or just do last boss -> pull 1 pack into the cannon barrage and kill pack
Just the last pack
I Tried it, got my big toe clipped on a fortified wk, (last wk) with SW and one tick of barrage hit for 1mil
strong forum
you have 3 ticks of swirlies time
so its 12-move-12-move
it has nothing to do with what tank youre playing, youre not supposed tank it
harsh light
Ok so a timing learning curve, i watched a tactyks vid, and he just bubble taunted and stood in it, appreciate yah boss, I'll work on the proper timing
strong forum
your entire group does the baiting btw
not just you
so him doing solo bombing is just inefficient
you pull in the pack at 60% boss HP when he starts doing groupwide bombs, so everybody just stacks up, and baits while backpeddaling out of the pack
and bombs delete the entire pack for you
harsh light
This week probably isn't the best to do that in then, bursting plus the random damage would assuredly kill atleast 1 person
karmic stream
Aren't the stats on that cloak kinda ick?
they are but im thinking about craftin 447 one with haste vers or haste crit
sick sentinel
you mc'd the artillery dude, or left it alive rather, or i think u MC'd to bring it instantly to 100HP and reset him to not mc and then he'd do his circle on the enemies and it would kill them too
in the boat tentacle dungeon
what a weird strategy that was
t his fucker
and if you kept him alive, he'd help nuke things for you entire rest of dungeon, was great
sick sentinel
bolster on that dungeon was aids
pre nerf bolster, explosive too, sanguine
alot of the affixesd were WRETCHED inside taht key
jagged gust
they are but im thinking about craftin 447 one with haste vers or haste crit
I'd say that's your best bet, a little haste goes a long way... Gotta say though, you've got an absolute ton of vers already
sick sentinel
but no, worst dungeon easily is shrine of storm
I wish, i wish that, like, in a key, where there is a graveyard is apparent
there is lik, a tombstone, and its easy to see, and you know if you see it you respawn there, and then before its activated, its, just like, faded out ghostly only an outline but you still know its there
uneven mason
I wish, i wish that, like, in a key, where there is a graveyard is apparent
Just make all boss room the respawn point
sick sentinel
too big of a nerf
daring marlin
but no, worst dungeon easily is shrine of storm
negative, siege was definitely the worst
sick sentinel
final section of workshop could be bad
uneven mason
negative, siege was definitely the worst
☝️
queen harbor
is it easier to drop forgestorm with fury or prot spec ?
ive done like 20 neltharus in a row and no sign if this weapon
daring marlin
same odds between fury and prot
It's just a choice between 2H sword or shield also being on the loot table
queen harbor
rip
uneven mason
Did a normal trial run for a guild on my warrior and my cotank was a bdk 
having to hold back
sick sentinel
do they not have aggro increasing abilities
modern gazelle
what trinkets do you guys actually run? beacon+dargul?
twin bramble
u can reflect searing clap fyi, that makes it easier
Thanks. It’s not me. Dps dies immediately lol. But finally beat it with a shadow priest mass dispel
sick sentinel
healer dc'd very early on freehold key for IO :S
plush tendon
what trinkets do you guys actually run? beacon+dargul?
I use Beacon and Dargul
Anvil also a good option and OCE/Nelth trinkets can also be slotted in
and the Grappel aint bad
pretty much, a dargul+a raid trinket/ double raid trinket is the way to go
modern gazelle
I use Beacon and Dargul
yeah figured, i like proc chance ones the most cause i dont have to use them, trying to get rid of my grapnel for that reason
ebon geyser
and race change to panda
human. there fix that for you
plush tendon
EXCITED FOR NEW TRINKETS?
if the numbies say they good, then im interested
round pendant
Ancestral Protection Totem? Yeah it's a talent for resto
hazy bronze
Has to be down before you die
sick sentinel
2nd worst brez?
hazy bronze
No because it doesn't count against the total
sick sentinel
is FH, i have vast amounts of knowledge about freehold
i could do a 20 key of fh on time easily i bet
karmic stream
whats ur ilvl mate
queen harbor
same odds between fury and prot
yo
you gave me luck
just dropped forgestorm
xdd
sick sentinel
daring marlin
🤝
sick sentinel
back, pants, both rings, select trinkets, all need a hero drop instead of champion
before i can use an aspect on them
nocturne spindle
Gotta get chu a new trinket
sick sentinel
one thing at at time
queen harbor
i like the vortex pinnacle one
karmic stream
just dropped forgestorm
grats mate
@sick sentinel u seem quite well geared, shouldnt be a prob to tank 20ies go for it :D
lusty grotto
toxic pewter
wat every1 doin
lusty grotto
yogi
we did 20s yesterday with my healer's 428 bear
didnt have issues
you can push, just do it
daring marlin
428? bruh
lusty grotto
yeah
daring marlin
implying that's low smh my head
lusty grotto
its way lower than yogi's ilvl
queen harbor
any vortex pinnacle enjoyers
toxic pewter
VP my fav dungeon this season
modern gazelle
why does it feel so weird playing other tanks after playing warrior?
toxic pewter
why does it feel so weird playing other tanks after playing warrior?
Should see a doctor, you probably have carpal tunnel
modern gazelle
im leveling all my other tanks with the boost and it just feels so different than warrior
i really want to get good at DH but man the essence thing is weird
like deciding to pick them up, spend on spirit orb or on the cleave
being fast af
jagged gust
Well wars are the only class that feels like a real tank to me
torn gulch
i want to play prot warrior on hardcore
modern gazelle
and my druid feels slow lol, like i feel like i have so many less buttons
jagged gust
Bears tank with very hard fur??? VDH's tank with the power of emo rage, BDKs throw maggots a their enemies, I guess pallys are kinda okay in my books but they're walking a fine line. Brewmasters just get too drunk to care about damage? Give me a break.
torn gulch
you should try dark knight
whoops wrong game
lusty grotto
fr
or even gnb
that shit is whack
but at least its not the carpal tunnel job aka mch
daring marlin
🐔 🍚
crude notch
Hello cuties
lusty grotto
another one for your list jordan
lusty grotto
nice nice chicken and rice
crude notch
Nothing too deep about it
lusty grotto
war is easy though
torn gulch
i love it
daring marlin
WAR is super ez
lusty grotto
fuck ogcd jobs
torn gulch
especially holmgang
daring marlin
most beastmode class too
lusty grotto
err let me rephrase
daring marlin
Them letting you use holmgang without a target was the best QoL ever.
lusty grotto
fuck dual weave jobs
lusty grotto
the one peeve i have with that game
queen harbor
wait, are they just dogshit then ?
lusty grotto
is how dumb the netcode is and requiring you to double weave on some jobs is dogshit
daring marlin
Funny that I stopped playing right before WAR is top damage tank.
daring marlin
I'll go back again at some point, surely.
lusty grotto
thats cause war was bottom dmg tank last tier lol
queen harbor
sad
daring marlin
so they are just dogshit
correct
crude notch
IDK what I'd enjoy in FF
daring marlin
thats cause war was bottom dmg tank last tier lol
Still most comfy.
torn gulch
a dps being beaten by a tank is doing something wrong
queen harbor
ff good music
daring marlin
I can play WAR blindfolded.
lusty grotto
Still most comfy.
yeah the best tank
queen harbor
better boss fights
daring marlin
nim it isn't even close either
lusty grotto
raids are different, i like them but i cant compare with wow
daring marlin
aesthetically, gameplay
crude notch
Thanks btw Guilford I'm hungry but didn't know what to eat
lusty grotto
i dont think comparing savage with mythic raiding is fair
torn gulch
if i want casual activities ff14 is so good
torn gulch
if i want competitive content like m+ i play wow
lusty grotto
i do savage raiding tues/thurs
queen harbor
i think the biggest difference are the communities
people are more forgiving and nice in ff
crude notch
Eh
lusty grotto
but my static is kinda casual so theyre stuck on levinstrike on p9 lmao
we've cleared all tiers at least, just not super fast
jagged gust
i think the biggest difference are the communities
I got booted from a group for telling the war he can spell reflect in NL earlier today lmao
lusty grotto
more like super late
queen harbor
I got booted from a group for telling the war he can spell reflect in NL earlier...
yea
lmao
crude notch
I've been flamed in both games idc
torn gulch
i need to snipe a house in ishgard
daring marlin
gat dayum that SS is from 2017
torn gulch
if i can
toxic pewter
Does ff14 use tank/healer/dps or what
queen harbor
yesterday i was playing on my hunter and doing mythic+ and the tank kicked one of the dps players in the middle of the run because he was doing shit damage
lmao
lusty grotto
whoever is saying otherwise is full of shit
daring marlin
There are more passive aggressive people in XIV I think
torn gulch
yes it does
lusty grotto
Does ff14 use tank/healer/dps or what
yes and avokers (dnc and brd)
toxic pewter
yes and avokers (dnc and brd)
Wat that mean
queen harbor
rarely people talk shit to me tho, i guess its because i play tank and they are afraid id leave and brick the key
daring marlin
The community as a whole definitely SEEMS nicer than WoW but, uh
torn gulch
support dps
daring marlin
Wat that mean
They have legit support DPS
lusty grotto
Wat that mean
yes buffing classes
torn gulch
same as augmentation
toxic pewter
Oh I see
daring marlin
It's probably why augmentation is a thing now
Dancer is the most cancer shit ever
I hate it
queen harbor
i only played tanks in ff
lusty grotto
dnc and brd will fucking rage if dps isnt doing well, cause their parses go to sh it
torn gulch
what you don't like having a dancing partner?
daring marlin
It's DPS but it does less than other pure DPS
lusty grotto
its still a dps
toxic pewter
Do you think wow should of made a literal 4th role
toxic pewter
Kinda think it would of been cool to make a 4th role
No I mean even in game UI and stuff
Like base foundation role
torn gulch
support
daring marlin
They did say that if Augvoker is received well they'll make more, yes?
torn gulch
people will rage with avokers so bad
jagged gust
Kinda think it would of been cool to make a 4th role
You say that, but imagine getting an RPing bard in your group
lusty grotto
yeah hopefully we get more of them
torn gulch
same as power infusion debacle
toxic pewter
Yah support role foundationaly would of been cool in my opinion instead of just putting them as a dps
crude notch
What does making a 4th role matter?
crude notch
They're still support
crude notch
avokers buff the entire group no?
They buff parts of the group
jagged gust
but i like my zoomies
torn gulch
can buff tank separately
toxic pewter
Just would be better long term instead of shoehorning. It’s awkward and offputting as it stands and long term thinking when they add more would be a lot better for the health and integrity of wow.
torn gulch
if i am not mistaken
lusty grotto
thats fine
daring marlin
tanks get a different buff from them
crude notch
In keys it's essentially the whole group
daring marlin
something with spikes
toxic pewter
Nothin worse than a shoehorned situation that’s for sure
crude notch
Just would be better long term instead of shoehorning. It’s awkward and offputti...
Well what's your plan then
lusty grotto
yeah i mean i dont think how that's comparable to a huge single target buff
daring marlin
@chilly brook educate us smoothbrains on your simp spec
toxic pewter
Make a support replace a dps
crude notch
Like it's irrelevant what you label them as
crude notch
But there's only one
toxic pewter
Ya for now
crude notch
There's only one support right now
toxic pewter
I’m talking big picture
crude notch
So you want to force people to take one of one
toxic pewter
So you want to force people to take one of one
Ya just like the other roles
lusty grotto
i dont think this is even a debate, if the dps addition due to buffs they bring is enough to replace 1 pure dps class, there's no reason to alter the trinity
crude notch
Like them being labeled DPS is irrelevant
toxic pewter
I mean for now
lusty grotto
similar to how ffxiv does it
daring marlin
It's really a non issue
crude notch
They get accredited for the DPS
toxic pewter
I’m talking long term. eventually there will be more support specs
lusty grotto
well sure
toxic pewter
But yeah require augmentation for now
lusty grotto
wow groups have 5 slots
toxic pewter
Ya
lusty grotto
it makes sense to have 1-1-1-2
toxic pewter
Ya
lusty grotto
with 1 of them being straight support
maybe it'll move that way but i dont think they should force it
toxic pewter
Yah exactly I think blizzard should of been bold and just did it. You know what they say, if you’re gonna do something, do it right
crude notch
It'd take numerous more
lusty grotto
the OG holy trinity was Warrior + Cleric + Enchanter in EQ1, so thats one support role (enchanter)
and that was there before WoW
nothing we're talking about is new
new to wow yes
new to mmos no
toxic pewter
I guess I just have a more sophisticated and larger outlook when it comes to wow
I am what they call a “big picture” thinker
lusty grotto
i would say you're fixated too much on it
toxic pewter
Nah, time will prove me right, as most things
lusty grotto
im not disagreeing with you, you just havent played other mmos
toxic pewter
I have played them all
crude notch
can buff tank separately
There's a separate specific ability that'll go on tanks yes, but in a 5 man you'll mostly be buffing all and with how prescience works you'll have crit buffs on two DPS almost 100% and then have your ebon might on usually all 3 DPS and the tank.
crude notch
I am what they call a “big picture” thinker
Stop being an idiot
crude notch
Them labeling it as DPS or support is literally irrelevant
toxic pewter
Maybe to you
lusty grotto
its just a label
torn gulch
🍿
toxic pewter
Labels matter
crude notch
There's no gain to them labeling it otherwise
toxic pewter
Words and ideas matter
lusty grotto
i dont know i dont think it matters at all
crude notch
Why does it matter if they're labeled support
crude notch
Go bait somewhere else
crude notch
Christ
balmy pawn
Do they? What does a “support” evoker do that isn’t just be a dps by acting as a force multiplier on the other dps in your group?
How is it meaningfully not just a different playstyle of dps?
crude notch
It's not.
toxic pewter
I’m just speaking my mind and like I said time will prove me right in the end
lusty grotto
hakks dont take the bait
lol
we're all saying the same thing except for master baiter over there
toxic pewter
That’s gross
lusty grotto
lol
crude notch
I’m just speaking my mind and like I said time will prove me right in the end
You still haven't explained the importance of labeling them support
daring marlin
crude notch
apb you need a hobby
toxic pewter
You still haven't explained the importance of labeling them support
Because long term they may want to implement differing ideas or visions of what a support spec may be that doesn’t fall in line with dps
It’s just lazy
What they’re doing right now
And bad
crude notch
Okay and what's the relevance to doing it now versus doing it later
lusty grotto
this shit made me laugh so hard
i dont think there was a sane mage in the world that liked it ever
toxic pewter
Because it’s wiser to build foundation than tear shit down later and rebuild.
lusty grotto
COUGH LEYLINES IN FFXIV COUGH
daring marlin
It’s just lazy
toxic pewter
Sounds correct
crude notch
Bruh RoP being gone is bis wow change in years
lusty grotto
yea fr
balmy pawn
I want to know what the “other visions” could be that arent just “more complex playstyles for advanced dps or healing players”
crude notch
You sound like a genius but really you're just an idiot
toxic pewter
I may not agree with what you say but I will give my life for your right to say it.
toxic pewter
I lift weights with drogbar
toxic pewter
Me too
crude notch
Do you really get your kicks off baiting every thirty minutes?
toxic pewter
I’ve never said anything I do not truly believe
nocturne spindle
You guys are great drama while waiting in line
toxic pewter
the "delete haste from the game" apb
Blizz themselves in recent interview explained why they didn’t give augmentation any haste buffs or anything. Pretty interesting
crude notch
How old are you apb
daring marlin
You want your UTILITY? THERE'S YOUR UTILITY
toxic pewter
How old are you apb
I am 34
balmy pawn
Warcraft literally only has the one gameplay axis and it all relates to damage; either mitigating it, undoing it or doing it.
If a “support” is doing something outside those constraints it’s just off somewhere playing a different game.
If it’s doing stuff within them then it is in all meaningful ways just a tank, a healer or a damage dealer with a weird playstyle.
nocturne spindle
I mean that's always been what support classes are, make other people do more damage or take less damage
crude notch
Yeah if they label it as support then they feel like they have to differentiate too drastically which imo is not a good thing.
Considering Blizzard's track record
lusty grotto
I mean that's always been what support classes are, make other people do more da...
correct
toxic pewter
Warcraft literally only has the one gameplay axis and it all relates to damage; ...
According to your logic why even have tank or healer roles then? Why not just call everyone a singular role? Once you open Pandora’s box and begin assigning more than 1 role you have already “given in” snd differentiation via role is only “natural” from there. Eventually you will find yourself shoehorning specs when further differentiation is actually preferable. As we are witnessing with augmentation in real time.
lusty grotto
lets move on from this moot dicussion, its senseless
for people that have only and currently only do WoW, this is an alien concept, but it is what it is
crude notch
apb is literally just chatgpt but somehow dumber
toxic pewter
That’s just your opinion
toxic pewter
Cuz aug it has some things in common with dps, but it also has things in common with a tank now that I think of it.. and even some healer similarities
Are you noticing a trend yet
crude notch
You're being so obtuse
jagged gust
I'm just wondering when they'll manage to find a balance with augvokers, I feel like they're either going to be considered 100% mandatory or absolute dogshit
toxic pewter
No, it is apparently alien to you
lusty grotto
the guy hasnt played anything thats not wow
toxic pewter
Ii am speaking of a foundational shift
lusty grotto
he said so himself a while ago
nova cloak
anyone knows how to fix this in raidbots?
"Unknown/outdated talents found. Make sure your /simc input is recent."
toxic pewter
You are happy with shoehorning it into dps. I am not
jagged gust
is your addon up to date? Cant say ive seen that before
crude notch
You are happy with shoehorning it into dps. I am not
No one is shoehorning except you
crude notch
anyone knows how to fix this in raidbots?
"Unknown/outdated talents found. Make...
Usually only happens if you're trying to use it on PTR
nova cloak
is your addon up to date? Cant say ive seen that before
yup and i only get this with frost dk
mighty valley
two options: 1) slap it into dps or 2) make a new role and rethink all of their matchmaking systems entirely
which one sounds easier
cool do that one
nova cloak
Usually only happens if you're trying to use it on PTR
just live servers on a frost dk toon. all characters i play work just fine witht he same version of simc
crude notch
yup and i only get this with frost dk
Uh did you ask them? Maybe there's a weird situation with them
toxic pewter
which one sounds easier
Yah never said it would be easy. I am speaking of a foundational shift to how the game is played but it would be better in the long run
lusty grotto
historically there hasnt been a straight support role, because its dumb - all support classes in previous and existing mmos are damage dealers that buff
removing damage from them would severely fuck them over
so it is just that
a label
which fucking doesnt matter cause its a label
crude notch
Surely you're not that stupid to think it's a good thing to force people to run one of one supports
toxic pewter
Whether you like it or not
mighty valley
matchmaking and groupbuilding with three roles is already tough
crude notch
Labels matter in this world
Yeah if you're a bigot they do
mighty valley
look at the chronic problems something like league runs into with the support role matchmaking
lusty grotto
Yeah if you're a bigot they do
yea, couldnt put it better myself
toxic pewter
Yah I guess you can make support role optional i supose
balmy pawn
Ok, well… it is labeled a dps because it is a dps. “Support” is just some thing that you are hung up on for idk why
toxic pewter
But the foundation of it being a role is important
mighty valley
all dps specs bring group "support"
lusty grotto
i feel like this has been told to you like 10 times already in this conversation
toxic pewter
Yeah if you're a bigot they do
Lol I mean roles are labels… with your logic why not just get rid of all roles
crude notch
Should PPal be labeled as support then apb ?
mighty valley
augmentation just channels its dps through other people
crude notch
Should any tank that off heals and does damage be labeled as support?
toxic pewter
Should PPal be labeled as support then apb ?
Nah blizz said they not changing role of any exisiting specs
crude notch
Any healers that do damage, instantly supports
toxic pewter
Right we have entered into a world where all the roles dip into the other… maybe we should abolish all roles
mighty valley
blizz also said they're not labeling aug as "support," why does their word suddenly matter to you
toxic pewter
Let’s just get rid of roles altogether
crude notch
It's almost as if the labels... don't... matter
toxic pewter
They do and they don’t though
mighty valley
role labels didn't used to exist, they only added them to make boss design and matchmaking simpler on themselves
sick sentinel
It's almost as if the labels... don't... matter
mighty valley
and adding another role wouldn't make the systems simpler, it would make them worse
so
why bother
what is the actual game design goal of a role beyond semantics
that's the real question
toxic pewter
I mean like I said I think long term
sick sentinel
what is the actual game design goal of a role beyond semantics
So we can discriminate against them if they are bad or exclusively invite them if they are good (balance wise)
mighty valley
...?
toxic pewter
I’m talking 20 years from now, looking back I think blizz should of been bold and created a foundational 4th role
sick sentinel
I was being sarcastic
crude notch
20 years from now
nocturne spindle
Warlock tanked a boss in aq40, tank class
balmy pawn
What would that fourth role even do? There is not an area of gameplay for it to address
toxic pewter
What would that fourth role even do? There is not an area of gameplay for it to ...
Support role
crude notch
You haven't described support though
balmy pawn
There is no such thing.
sick sentinel
yeah true. There aren't any "support mechanics", what would those look like?
crude notch
By your partial definition, all priest specs are support, PPal is support, all druids are supports,
mighty valley
while all other modern games are trying to reduce the rigid role paradigms, the visionary apb boldly chooses to instead create new problems
tender phoenix
so 6 man M+? 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps and 1 Support guy?
toxic pewter
Maybe right now you do not grasp the concept for roles outside of just dps. But I can imagine other interesting roles such as environment manipulation, group speed/maneuverability roles, other interesting not even thought up ideas that may happen to occur in the future
crude notch
So specs that are already in the game
balmy pawn
Those things arent how the game works
toxic pewter
In your opinion
crude notch
Group speed, insert 5 classes
toxic pewter
And for now, sure
sick sentinel
I agree with Hakks
toxic pewter
But 30 years from now you may be wrong. So it’s better to build a strong foundation for a wide breadth of new ideas
balmy pawn
Not some imagined game you wish it to be
If they are going to fundamentally redesign the game
toxic pewter
There is more to wow than number big
crude notch
Environment manipulation is just a fancy way of saying stuns and slows.
toxic pewter
That’s just where we disagree
balmy pawn
It will just be a different game
mighty valley
new raid: minecraft
crude notch
You literally just described multiple current specs
toxic pewter
You literally just described multiple current specs
Yah but blizz has said they’re not changing any current specs
I’m talking about the future
lusty grotto
i like how apb says "you dont grasp the concept" but he doesnt understand that he cant properly describe a single fitting description for his terms
sick sentinel
There is more to wow than number big
All classes have a little bit of "support" in them if you don't take only damage talents
lusty grotto
sounds like typical wow forum bs
crude notch
Yah but blizz has said they’re not changing any current specs
Why does this matter you don't care for what Blizzard says outside of this one thing
balmy pawn
The future
toxic pewter
Right but by shoehorning in support into the three current roles you are effectively canceling out possible new ideas from blossoming. Ideas that aren’t even conceived yet
It’s just dangerous way to think
crude notch
You want to create a role that actually already exists in the game but no one calls it that
toxic pewter
When you shoehorn
lusty grotto
and what would those ideas be?
toxic pewter
No I am against shoehorning
balmy pawn
The idea of calling things a support.
crude notch
Except you're shoehorning
lusty grotto
The idea of calling things a support.
lol
crude notch
You are in fact trying to shoe horn group utility into a role
mighty valley
ok. try and describe your vision of the future to me. right now, they design dungeons so any configuration of one player capable of tanking enemies, one person that can heal damage, and three others to provide damage output can clear the challenge. what is the universal function that all "support" specs would provide?
toxic pewter
Except you're shoehorning
No, currently augmentation is being shoehorned into a dps role. I am arguing to free them and allow them to be their own role
lusty grotto
no apb
crude notch
You are arguing to shoehorn them into support
balmy pawn
The class is already designed, it already exists, and it already is a dps.
lusty grotto
augmentation is NOT being shoehorned
toxic pewter
You are arguing to shoehorn them into support
No blizzard stated they are a support role
crude notch
Make up your mind you psychopath
toxic pewter
Oh ok I got it wrong then
Augmentation is a dps spec
And not a support at all
Ok right
mighty valley
the primary output that augmentation brings to a group is damage
lusty grotto
indeed
toxic pewter
I guess I just have a larger vision for support role
lusty grotto
no
crude notch
They literally implemented hooks exclusively for this.
lusty grotto
you have a shit vision
balmy pawn
I want you to share that vision.
toxic pewter
Augmentation is a dps spec no supporting involved
lusty grotto
its just fucking bad
youre not special
you dont have a 3rd eye into these things
pay attention to what we're saying rationally
toxic pewter
It’s like I described blizzard is missing the mark big time
sick sentinel
youre not special
Damn he's wrong but you guys are going nuts LOL
lusty grotto
this guy is 100% not a baiter, hes a fucking dumbass jordan idk why you think he baits, he literally believes every idiotic thing he says
toxic pewter
Could of been bold instead of just making a dps spec and calling it a support
mighty valley
this guy is 100% not a baiter, hes a fucking dumbass jordan idk why you think he...
i legit don't know any more
toxic pewter
Are you guys ok
balmy pawn
What. Would. A. Support. Do. That. Isn't. Tank. Heal. Or. Deal. Damage? Explain.
lusty grotto
the more he talks, the more apparent it is
crude notch
You still haven't described support to be anything that isn't already in the game.
And what are you gonna do with the specs that already provide support? Remove those skills? So you can shoehorn for the sake of your definition of support?
toxic pewter
What. Would. A. Support. Do. That. Isn't. Tank. Heal. Or. Deal. Damage? Explain.
Environment manipulation, utility, abilities that have no “easy” way to put into a a numerical value
crude notch
So things already in the game
toxic pewter
Straight utility specs basically
crude notch
Being provided by non supports
toxic pewter
Yah but all they do is that
sick sentinel
Environment manipulation, utility, abilities that have no “easy” way to put into...
...Like utility every single class brings already.
toxic pewter
No damage, no healing in conventional means
crude notch
So what are you going to do with the utility that other specs bring
toxic pewter
? They can keep it
mighty valley
apb please write up a set of abilities for the class whose primary output is "environment manipulation" that gives them consistently fun moment-to-moment gameplay
crude notch
You're aware you're gonna have to shoehorn this into it's own class right
crude notch
But they can't be tied to other classes in the game either
toxic pewter
Augmentation won’t work and no other spec will work
crude notch
How are you going to level this no damage no healing spec?
toxic pewter
This new role can’t work for now I suppose
crude notch
How are you going to level this no damage no healing spec?
toxic pewter
I guess support role can’t work after all
crude notch
How are you going to level this no damage no healing spec?
toxic pewter
Augmentation is a sham
crude notch
How are you going to level this no damage no healing spec?
toxic pewter
Just another dps spec
crude notch
How are you going to level this no damage no healing spec?
toxic pewter
Uhhh supporting others?
mighty valley
Just another dps spec
correct! that's why that's the role it has been assigned
crude notch
So you're gonna shoehorn your ideal support into playing with others
In order to level
toxic pewter
Well a true supporter does it altruistically
crude notch
The only way this spec can level is by playing with others
And that sounds remotely fair to you
toxic pewter
Yeah I guess wow can’t have a true support role
crude notch
There is no true support role
toxic pewter
A true supporter supports
crude notch
You're making shit up
mighty valley
it's called "healer"
toxic pewter
I guess it’s not a shoehorn, augmentation is just another dps spec nothing new
I was arguing under false assumption
mighty valley
yeah. it's a new dps spec with a fun twist
that has some world of warcraft gamers pretty excited!
lusty grotto
its almost like... gasp... they can buff their own damage as well
crude notch
Every single class spec whatever in every single game ever has either done damage, done healing, or gotten punched in the face and you think you're some trendy cool kid by creating this spec that does none of that
mighty valley
that's why it has the "dps" role label, see
toxic pewter
Yah I won’t play it that’s for sure
mighty valley
because that's the function they've designed it to fill
crude notch
Like do you even read the words you're typing
sick sentinel
Damn you guys are toxic! chill tf out
crude notch
He's being blatantly obtuse
toxic pewter
No
lusty grotto
Damn you guys are toxic! chill tf out
you must be new to class discords, this isnt even remotely bad
toxic pewter
Had to argue it out
I understand I thought it was a new role but it’s not
That’s on me
crude notch
His inability to do any sort of critical thinking does not make us toxic
mighty valley
i'm glad we settled that
toxic pewter
I thought it was more than a dps spec and something new
lusty grotto
now lets talk about how Nok should be in the s3 rotation
big pulls ☑️
reflectable bosses ☑️
crude notch
I hate you
lusty grotto
bis prot warrior dungeon ☑️
toxic pewter
His inability to do any sort of critical thinking does not make us toxic
Wat u mean by that
lusty grotto
I hate you
toxic pewter
What that mean
crude notch
That means it's time to go play with sand
mighty valley
the most frustrating part of your arguments, apb, are the parts where you say some broad statement and do not care to put in any further thought work to figure out how it would actually work in a real video game context
in game development we jokingly refer to people who do this as "ideas guys"
toxic pewter
Ok so you say I need more specific examples
Ya I tend to thing outside of the box with big ideas
I’m a big picture guy
lusty grotto
you really like to stroke your baseless ego
mighty valley
yep! that kind of person is useless in game development
lusty grotto
like youre on to something but youre the opposite of that
toxic pewter
you really like to stroke your baseless ego
Wat u mean
mighty valley
tends to drop feedback like "what if it was more like halo but with minecraft elements" and then walk away
toxic pewter
yep! that kind of person is useless in game development
That’s just your opinion
Not everyone gotta agree
People have different opinions
lusty grotto
lol
toxic pewter
Like just because I think long term and big picture does not make my opinion any less valid than a short term thinker
lusty grotto
good fucking lord
mighty valley
there are billions of people on planet earth capable of saying "what if wow had a 4th role called support" and almost none who could actually work through the implications of that to a coherent design that would actually be good for the game
toxic pewter
Dude we had a discussion
And I agree the sham augmentation is not a good fit
It’s a dps
lusty grotto
how many times have you said "i have big ideas", "you just cant grasp it", "i think outside the box"
toxic pewter
I get that
lusty grotto
good fucking lord lmao
mighty valley
ok this is the part where i think it's bait
crude notch
apb it's time for the meds
toxic pewter
It’s not bait I have to argue it out sometimes
mighty valley
no, it's the little details
toxic pewter
Not everyone thinks the same way too
mighty valley
calling it a "sham"
crude notch
you're literally just shouting shit into the abyss
lusty grotto
hes just smarter, better, more capable, we don't have the rational capacity for it
urban portal
supports either do damage, heal, or CC
every spec can CC
healers heal
and damage do damage
toxic pewter
Right supports can’t truly exist
I get that
So this term support needs to exit the discussion
And any mention of it is bad game design
crude notch
You want a spec that can't do any solo content at all.
urban portal
yes support does not need to exist in MMOs
mighty valley
"support" in league evolved out of a pretty unique situation - a player that can provide value on little gold income
lusty grotto
can we have a counter bot count the times where apb thinks hes a genious in some way? i'd like to see those numbers
urban portal
"support" in league evolved out of a pretty unique situation - a player that can...
exactly
but everyone has the same income in wow
toxic pewter
You want a spec that can't do any solo content at all.
Ya I want to altruistically support others. I don’t want to do any damage or healing myself
mighty valley
.........
toxic pewter
That’s what a supper it in my world
mighty valley
isn't keeping people alive supporting them
toxic pewter
I get that cannot exist in wow
crude notch
and needs to burn
mighty valley
"selfish healing" is pretty funny
urban portal
so you want a "force multiplier"
toxic pewter
Making others better
balmy pawn
You might want to be a a "raid leader"
balmy pawn
It's a unique role where you get to tell people they're being bad, until they get better. Thereby making them better.
crude notch
No it's not my opinion
You're lacking all critical thinking
You think you're coming with this "genius" idea that literally no one would want to play
toxic pewter
Nah a true support makes everyone better (you choose that)
urban portal
you realize supports only exists in games because there are finite amount of resources to go around
but thats not ture in wow
the only resource you have in wow is spaces in the group
crude notch
No it can't
mighty valley
in wow, players need to be pressing buttons related to their primary output ever second or so for the game to remain engaging
toxic pewter
?
urban portal
make it so you can only have say, 10000 ilevel in total
dusky canopy
hello 😄
urban portal
in a raid
toxic pewter
Why can I not play a role where I purely support others. Why is that bad
crude notch
make it so you can only have say, 10000 ilevel in total
stop giving apb ideas
toxic pewter
I mean it would be cool in my opinion
mighty valley
Why can I not play a role where I purely support others. Why is that bad
you need to describe in more specific terms what you actually do. like, what are your consistent button presses doing
crude notch
how to trigger apb
urban portal
let me multibox myself in PVP
toxic pewter
you need to describe in more specific terms what you actually do. like, what are...
Buff and support others. Literally do no damage myself. Can be a max level type of spec I guess just for group content you opt into
dusky canopy
Support rolls typically are not active
thats why they havent existed until now
i would assume
toxic pewter
Make dps do more damage, healers heal better, tanks tank better
Movement
Environment manipulation
crude notch
STOP
toxic pewter
Just always supporting
crude notch
with your environment manipulation
That's literally just cc
Stop it
you goon
You're not some harvard grad
toxic pewter
No I mean actually change the world
crude notch
You pompous ass
toxic pewter
Like put up walls
lusty grotto
can stop dancing aroudn the fact that the guy is literally describing a BUFF BOT
literally nobody would play it
crude notch
You want an aura bot from poe
toxic pewter
Yah sure
lusty grotto
just have a 2nd account that bots buffs
crude notch
That requires you to play with another person at all times
toxic pewter
That would need a 4th role. I get augmentation doesn’t qualify
lusty grotto
because altruistic gameplay is by definition NOT fun or engaging
toxic pewter
But yeah would be cool
lusty grotto
its a game
dusky canopy
in my mind an ideal support roll would
Buff all party members damage with active rotation buttons, give party members defensive boosts as cds, and lastly be the primary source of crowd control in a dungeon, multiple interupts, stuns, long ccs, charms, fears, etc
all in one roll
toxic pewter
because altruistic gameplay is by definition NOT fun or engaging
I mean it is for some people
lusty grotto
for you
toxic pewter
Ya sure
lusty grotto
not for the masses
if i want to be altruistic i do it in real life
game is an escape from real life
urban portal
in my mind an ideal support roll would
Buff all party members damage with activ...
the main problem is CC, wow has too much stun DR
toxic pewter
I mean sure it’s not for everyone
lusty grotto
i dont need these things in a game to have fun
mighty valley
we already have two roles that are relatively unpopular and make matchmaking more arduous for the most popular role, despite it being needed in vastly larger numbers
dusky canopy
the main problem is CC, wow has too much stun DR
well right, introducing a CC oriented support roll would force them to re look at how DRs work in pve content
crude notch
You're looking to create a spec, that literally is incapable of playing without others
And you think that'd somehow work in wow
lusty grotto
literally nobody would play that class
crude notch
It barely works in PoE
lusty grotto
it'll just be 2nd accounts for botting
urban portal
MAJORITY of players in this game play solo
lusty grotto
and then because its a bot, its probably not going to have a place in meaningful content
dusky canopy
No im not on board with the idea of a full on support roll
crude notch
tanks only tank, damage dealers only do damage, healers only heal, and supports only... support.
dusky canopy
I'm just theorizing how they could do it
lusty grotto
why not instead of having buff bots, we have a pet that does all this... let's call them... warlocks? or hunters?
crude notch
Not in a game that's literally solo most of the time
balmy pawn
I can't believe this is still happening. I'm honestly in awe of it.
mighty valley
i mean, that's the fundamental question. even if, somehow, they create a 4th role that brings a required function to group content... would that actually be good for the game? requiring 3 roles already causes problems
toxic pewter
Still think an environmental manipulating spec with utility that cannot be quantified into numbers would be cool
lusty grotto
brew you just got here
this is just a ridiculous fucking discussion that has no merit or value
crude notch
I hope blizzard is never stupid enough to invest resources into a spec that does literally nothing outside of group play
balmy pawn
I think you missed the first hour of this discussion, which just keeps rebooting itself every 10 minutes or so
dusky canopy
toxic pewter
Lol
mighty valley
Still think an environmental manipulating spec with utility that cannot be quant...
describe this to me. so every few seconds you're like, raising and lowering the ground? making walls and pits or something?
toxic pewter
Yah, elevation, walls
balmy pawn
I think I have a game for you
nocturne spindle
I hope blizzard is never stupid enough to invest resources into a spec that does...
You mean healers lmao
toxic pewter
Things like that
balmy pawn
It's called "Overwatch"
crude notch
Knockups and knockdowns.
balmy pawn
where that might actually matter.
toxic pewter
It's called "Overwatch"
Ya exactly. Some things from overwatch would be cool to put into wow
crude notch
or do damage
mighty valley
so wow currently doesn't have any conception of elevation mattering for combat, would you like to design that system in a 20 year old game
toxic pewter
Ya for wow 2
nocturne spindle
Every boss is now an underwater boss
crude notch
So now you're arguing