protection

[deft vessel]

eh, they don't take that long I guess

so I ran them in an evening

[strong forum]

well i aint gonna pug

im waiting for my 5stack

[deft vessel]

fair enough

[trail crow]

I simped gear to our DPS 😦

[strong forum]

imagine having dps players

lool

[trail crow]

Rip my week1 99s

Actually wait

I forgot I can imprison myself in M+

[strong forum]

yea getting 99s week1 will be a massive fucking ilvl race

gonna be so good

[ionic fern]

No. 😦

I'm too far behind in ilvl already

And i also diddn't do any of the rep farms for neck/ring/back

[trail crow]

I did cobalt but I cba doing obsidian key farm

I'll pick up Lariat on reset with my next spark and hope for the best.

[ionic fern]

Same

[trail crow]

Stat and gear wise I'm looking decent going into M+, but we'll see how far I can push up some keys next week I suppose

[fast knot]

With how much bitching about vault that I have been doing I know it'll be my first 15 key

Week 1 is probably manageable but fuck Grievous 2nd boss

[trail crow]

I don't hate vault, there's some cool skip tech

[strong forum]

vault is more doable week1 than week2

in week2 vault is HARD banned

tyr grievous LOL

literally impossible bosses

[fast knot]

That dungeon with Tyr is an actual warcrime

[trail crow]

I detest week 1 routing.

I feel like an actual idiot.

[strong forum]

routing?

in DF dungeons?

doesnt exist

[trail crow]

I mean optimal pulls and grouping still definitely exists.

[vital sinew]

Nok has some optimizations to it

[fast knot]

I want to go normal pulls that I plan out but that also involves dps knowing the kicks

[vital sinew]

But the majority is simple

[fast knot]

First boss trash second boss totem trash everything at third boss to 100%

If your group wants to pull Khan trash they are braindead

Outside of the two homies

Might need extra pulls at dragon, haven't poked nose at MDT for there in a second

[trail crow]

opinions on doing two homies with the boss?

literally only requires an additional kick

[vital sinew]

Boss hits reasoably hard, might get rough

[fast knot]

If you have the coordination go for it

[trail crow]

myehhhhh

[fast knot]

But yeah boss pipes

Plus the add can charge all the way to fuckin Kansas if aimed wrong

[trail crow]

I'm very unafraid of tank damage at the moment, prot feels robust enough that we're able to punch a bit above our weight class for survivability with SW+LS and maybe swapping into Bolster for some additional tonk. But maybe that feeling is misplaced.

[fast knot]

I would get them low and probably chain into boss

[vital sinew]

Just dont do it week 2.

[trail crow]

that's probably more reasonable if anything

[fast knot]

Just going with both into them is realistically just gonna kill dps

[trail crow]

I need to wrap my head around the idea that tank damage isn't the limiting factor of m+ now; DPS are getting clapped a lot earlier in key level than previous expansions.

[strong forum]

keep in mind

[sick sentinel]

is nelth dungeon hard or easy?

[strong forum]

you were ALOT lower ilvl on this beta than in SL beta

[sick sentinel]

my guess easy

[strong forum]

like, you had less than heroic ilvl on beta

you were literally lacking 30ilvl

its expected for DPS to get clapped in 15s when theyre so far undergeared

and with 20% harder key scaling

[mighty valley]

neltharus has some healing checks that'll probably be rough in early weeks of m+

[strong forum]

and even then, people managed to push into 20s with full affixes with just 392 ilvl

[pallid quiver]

A lot of the rando DPS in my M0s were getting clapped at 370 ish ilvl. 🙂

[vital sinew]

Mammoth boss claps idiots

[pallid quiver]

pugs innit

[sick sentinel]

im talking about running it on a zero for loot and the painting

[mighty valley]

none of the m0s are hard

[strong forum]

m0s arent hard

[mighty valley]

there's no time limit, you cannot fail

[strong forum]

i was contemplating just soloing them

for stream content

[trail crow]

You can definitely solo M0's as a reasonably geared week1 tank atm.

[vital sinew]

GL with stormlash

[pallid quiver]

these two weeks were so funny

[strong forum]

no i mean

right now syru

[trail crow]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I guess this isn't week1.

[sick sentinel]

okay, to qualify, if i 1 shot every boss, maybe 2 attempts on 1 cuz i fucked it up, i'd say thats easy

[trail crow]

But week2. Whatever.

[strong forum]

i dont count pre-season as any kind of week

[trail crow]

I've been pulling all the trash into bosses and just letting it rip.

[sick sentinel]

if i wiped 4 times, id say hard, but that also skill issue too so

[pallid quiver]

The only thing I'd be concerned about for soloing these last week would be Storm Lash

[strong forum]

true

[pallid quiver]

Poison Frog would give me anxiety

[strong forum]

but im dwarf

so

:^)

[pallid quiver]

im a cow

[strong forum]

skill issue

[pallid quiver]

I can make stompy

[trail crow]

[mighty valley]

i'd expect very average m+ players to one-shot pretty much every m0 boss going in blind

[trail crow]

I've watched some groups having some actual issues with M0 content; I've had literally none thus far except the first pull in Lifepools, where I tanked both of the stone bois in that tiny little hallway and learned very quickly that the overlapping voidzones fuck hard and fast.

[vital sinew]

Why though

[trail crow]

Because big pull make brain happy

[vital sinew]

fair

[trail crow]

or why did I tank them there?

[vital sinew]

Nah, double stone just seems like needless risk

[minor helm]

Only thing I’ve wiped to through two world tours was notgood offensive trash before last boss

[pallid quiver]

I just held W and pulled everything that got in the way

[trail crow]

Eh, it was just a stupid spot to tank them.

If you pull them into the boss room you have infinite room to literally make them do no damage.

[trail crow]

Dis is de wae

[pallid quiver]

I got clapped by Storm Lash for a wipe, and uh

[minor helm]

We were not aware that that trash fucks

[pallid quiver]

Almost wiped from chain fears in Bracken and Nokhud

[vital sinew]

It's so tempting to kick casts in Bracken, only for no one to get cackle

[trail crow]

Yeah, I made this mistake too but we managed. Was kinda' spicy.

I think Berserker Shout might actually be a move for Bracken lol

[sick sentinel]

up to 363 now

[trail crow]

maybe not in coordinated content

[pallid quiver]

i was thinking about that real hard tbh

[trail crow]

but pugging that shit and relying on kicks from... questionable gamers is probably a bad move

[vital sinew]

Very thankful Halls and Bracken sit for s1

[trail crow]

oh shit you right

i'm an idiot.

it's weird not having all 8 dungeons on week 1

[vital sinew]

Kinda looking forward to the non-DF dungeons. Missed out on SL S4 fuckery in kara and depot

[trail crow]

I really hated COS in Legion

Not sure why people simp it so much.

[vital sinew]

The prof rng bites, guess who stinks, weird trash minigames

But 1000% better than arcway

[pallid quiver]

I've only been in Court during Timewalking.

I'd rather have Bracken or Halls by a long shot, from what I've felt

[sturdy sable]

Courts either real smooth or a shit show ive never had an in-between

[raw parcel]

It looks like the BV bug might be fixed.

Wait, nope, spoke too soon.

[strong forum]

It behaves like explained in the pin

Works vs dummy, Bugs out vs anything else

[hazy sluice]

lifeflame ampoule good for m+?

numbers dont look great to me

have it on 376 ilvl and it says 20k dmg and 28k heal split among enemies and allies / 2min

[mighty valley]

I tried the aoe zerk talent thinking it'd be good for nonude offensive but I'm disappointed you can't pre-cast it to fear immune everyone

[loud patrol]

so it sucks

[trail crow]

Doubt, numbers don’t look good. You lose a lot of throughput on wasted healing more or less.

[azure light]

thoughts on this talent?

[trail crow]

The answer is sim it but I think there’s better options in general.

[trail crow]

Bad imo.

[azure light]

with all the interrupts in DF should be good no? also usually the target u interupt can/should be focused so u get more focus dmg

[trail crow]

If you’re relying on 1s cdr to get your kicks off for pummel your group has bigger problems. The additional damage isn’t highly relevant tbh.

[azure light]

but ofc if the numbers are to low its not worth

and 5% increase in singletarget isnt really that much

[trail crow]

Correct. There’s situations where it could be better than some of your talent alternatives, but they’re very fringe.

[azure light]

i think its never gonna be useful in m+

but in raid if there is like a add phase that spawns 2 big interupt adds etc it could be good

but also, it prbly won't since its only active in that period

[trail crow]

That’s not inherently true; there are dozens of conceivable situations where that “extra 1 second” could save the group from wiping. But planning around a worst case scenario like that isn’t viable imo.

[trail crow]

Bad but necessary filler talent for the majority of builds.

Gains value with our attack speed increases however.

[strong forum]

It's not necessary at all

But it's solid 1.5-2% dmg gain

Filler talents are pain and gain, bounding stride, overwhelming rage, honed reflexes

[oak echo]

i think if we get to a point of being flooded with rage again i could see taking the 15 rage over it but for now it's easy passive damage

[pallid quiver]

just press IP harder

[edgy grail]

I doubt it I don’t really see how that talent is worth anything when IP is off the gcd but maybe im wrong

[flat arch]

hi all, i'm going through the icy-veins and wowhead guides on prot and can't find a consistent answer for when to cast ravager in an opener. Icy veins says to cast it as the very first thing, wowhead says to use it after demoralizing shout.

[ionic fern]

Aaactualy....

It's liuterally 1 tick extra BV Ravager difference tho.

So doesn't really matter.

For max DPS it should be Ravager->BV

But that's 1 extra tick of ravage rbeing buffed by BV.

?

[flat arch]

wait how does casting Ravager before DS gets it an extra tick of BV buffed dmg?

[ionic fern]

At least with current haste levels.

[strong forum]

I do, and I didn't bother optimising that

I have github but that stuff is a little advanced to me

I just wrote the apl and ask nicely for someone else to PR it

Whatever floats your boat it's all open source

[smoky pike]

Should i buy the cobalt tank or dps ring as prot warrior?

[edgy grail]

what do you drop if you want to take battle scarred vet?

[lusty tiger]

):

[edgy grail]

Indomitable?

[lusty tiger]

)):

[ionic fern]

Why do you want BSV? o.o

[edgy grail]

is it not one of the stronger defensive options?

[lusty tiger]

It doesn’t even work correctly

[drifting fable]

you plan to die alot?

[edgy grail]

yes I do

[lusty tiger]

And if it did- needing it would mean you’re playing warrior very poorly

[drifting fable]

well

dont do that

lmao

[edgy grail]

I asked a simple question

[loud patrol]

just dont die

[lusty tiger]

It’s not simple

[loud patrol]

[lusty tiger]

Not a simple question

[smoky pike]

I dont feel like its needed

[edgy grail]

?

[smoky pike]

no content is hard enough for it to be needed yet

[drifting fable]

^

[edgy grail]

m+ is not even open

???

[drifting fable]

and it wont be needed in early m+ either

[edgy grail]

Im not asking what I drop to play BSV for my daily rare farm

[smoky pike]

dont think we'll need it even when m+ opens

maybe on rly high keys

[loud patrol]

you die on rares?

[lusty tiger]

Are you ip spamming?

What are your talents now

[ionic fern]

Honestly..you shouldn't need it when playing the class correctly.
But if you do want to use it for w/e reason..i would probably drop Battering Ram.

[lusty tiger]

Clearly there is a greater issue at hand

[edgy grail]

jfc

I dont have any problem with the content

[lusty tiger]

!

[drifting fable]

i mean you clearly think bsv is the correct choice for some reasob

so idk

[loud patrol]

then why do you want a dead talent

[edgy grail]

Thank you mwahi for the answer

[jovial birch]

The answer is you don’t. Not the answer you’re looking for though clearly

[ionic fern]

It's a game.
They can play what ever.
We said that it SHOULDN'T BE NEEDED for the majority of people - explained why - but they still wanted it, so just answer the question.

[lusty tiger]

Well there was also their misunderstanding of thinking it was a strong talent

[loud patrol]

i just wonder why would someone use it

[drifting fable]

well its more that they seemed really confused when we said dont use it

[lusty tiger]

So it was based on poor knowledge

[shut summit]

it has its place in mythic prog on hard boss or high m+ keys, high being relative to the persons skill

[edgy grail]

Im not by any means some sort of insane player but I do high enough keys (+27-29) where sometimes I consider defensive options. I was just wondering what the lowest opportunity costs talent was to play BSV. I can come to the conclusion on my own of what is worth and what isn't

[jovial birch]

Ok if you are looking to the future that may be a different story. Thanks for clearing that up.

[oak echo]

the talents we have available aren't changing in the future so why does that matter lol

[lusty tiger]

It is a good question but the lack of context made it seem like you were looking for a good talent build for current content

[edgy grail]

Yes I promise you I'm not dying to m0 bosses and saying I need BSV 😛

[lyric geode]

Defence! Defence! Some of the rhymes that Americans use are so lame. I got bored myself from the NBA because of the lame fans.

[edgy grail]

but fair enough some added context would've helped clear it up

thanks for the answer

[lyric geode]

Glad that USA didnt make to 8 in mundial. I would kms if I had to hear that.

[lusty tiger]

I can read those words but have no clue what it means

[compact jackal]

OK. I decided on helm+bracers because I can 5* craft both. I plan to regret my decision within the first second of crafting.

[ocean yoke]

College sports in USA is where the sick crowds are

[lyric geode]

Uh...

An example?

[ocean yoke]

College football/basketball mostly, not as many fans for soccer

[edgy grail]

also what about it doesn't work properly?

[lyric geode]

An example of fans on basketball or rugby?

[lusty tiger]

From what I’ve read it does not proc when you are at 30% hp but when you’ve take 30% of your hp pre mitigation

[shut summit]

towards the end of beta it would proc on hits that would take you below threshold before mit, so would proc at like 70% and shit

[ocean yoke]

What kind of thing? Like them being loud or other shenanigans?

[shut summit]

havent tested it since then to know if fixed or not though

[edgy grail]

ohh....

[lyric geode]

I mean what do you see that make you owe.

[edgy grail]

that's not great lol.

[ocean yoke]

Owe?

[lyric geode]

I mean something that you feel is a great atmosphere.

[lusty tiger]

Miami heat games

[ocean yoke]

Ooohhh

[lusty tiger]

That’s an atmosphere

[edgy grail]

heat games are the best

I went to Dwade's last home game

wild

[lusty tiger]

Biig hype

[lyric geode]

Heat games?

[lusty tiger]

Miami Heat basketball team

At the new Miami stadium

Arena/whatever

[ocean yoke]

https://youtu.be/kSOWQtQPCfc this is just one from this last year, big rivalry game, about 100k in the stadium, the goal posts got torn down and taken to be thrown in a river

[lusty tiger]

That’s kinda epic

[ocean yoke]

Field storming very fun

[lyric geode]

That is fun.

But something not unsual.

[cunning parcel]

Can you use howling rune with a whetstone?

[sick sentinel]

i got another 372 shield different name stats

shaman had 363 blue, tried to trade him couldnt

he hearthed away

[lyric geode]

I am glad that there is something that resembles of my country. I thought all of the matches are just a show. No passion or anything.

[remote cobalt]

Is it worth spending the spark of ingenuity yet ?? Or should we be holding on to it?

[ocean yoke]

Some of the pro level crowds can get that way, generally the higher ticket price it goes it gets quieter

[lyric geode]

That is sad... I have seen people fall asleep. Anyway, I am glad that I was somewhat wrong.

[lusty tiger]

this usa soccer crowd is

[lyric geode]

Well, I am not trying to be judgemental. I am asking about this, because a friend of mine has migrated to USA.

[lusty tiger]

only 1 gen children, immigrants, and soccer players care about soccer here

[ocean yoke]

Yeah it depends a bit where you are too

Some pro stuff gets rowdy

[lyric geode]

And as for now, he is terrified about how many guns are in circulation.

[lusty tiger]

lol

better get himself one

just in case

[ocean yoke]

Just shield block them

[lyric geode]

I don't terrified, but rather suprised more like.

[lethal pecan]

Hey draogn games equipment(football) vs mammoth trinket?

damage wise

[lyric geode]

More things like. -No unions, no strikes. -No worker protection. -No paid leave vacation. -Very high rent. But to be honest, definitely more money he makes.

[lusty tiger]

that is called freedom

freedom to fail is included

[lethal pecan]

if there is some way to find a trinket tierlist for m+

I'm interested

damage wise

[lusty tiger]

usually bloodmallet is an alright starting point

[lyric geode]

My question. If you are a multibillion dollar company. Will you fail? Or you will get subsidized by government?

[lusty tiger]

depends on how integral the company is to government ventures and who is in office at the moment

not cut and dry

can look at our 2008 recession for an example

[lyric geode]

Well I know a bit or two about 2008 bank payoffs

Okay.

[lusty tiger]

gas and corn growing is subsidized

but tech companies arent(usually)

[lyric geode]

I understand gas. But corn?

For food security?

[lusty tiger]

it is not proftable for farmers

so it needs to be subsidized so that people will actually grow it

[lyric geode]

Weird. I was thinking that they wouldnt subsidize agriculture as much.

[torn gulch]

food security for a nation is so vital that the industry needs to be subsidised no matter the cost

[lusty tiger]

your people are always 3 meals away from a revolution

[torn gulch]

same with energy

[lyric geode]

Anyway, it isnt geo channel. Dont want to polute this channel with weird things.

[lyric geode]

True. There is quite unrest here because of the food and energy cost.

[craggy surge]

hey, are there already symed lists for the m+/raid gear for the protection warrior?

[neon fossil]

Sims are saying that I should take the crit/vers rather than the haste/vers.

Think i should ignore the sims and take the haste/vers?

[trail crow]

no?

Diminishing Returns devalue stats based on the quantity you already have.

If you're very heavy on Haste already, scaling could just be making crit/vers more competitive.

[lusty tiger]

haste is a little special for prot war- but since the ilvl are the same it will probably be fine listening to the sim

[cobalt seal]

I haven't seem a question this pointless today

I wouldn't have sim, but if I did I would prob followed it

[trail crow]

??

That seems needlessly toxic lol

[prisma crane]

fwiw i believe in those freedoms to fail, but i DO think that those corps you mentioned should be able to fail too, govt stepping in the way they do primarily only for the giant corps is bullshit, ok back to Prot talk lol

[jagged pier]

its cro get used to it

[lusty tiger]

that was pretty toxic but somehow expected

[neon fossil]

Fuck you man. First of all, it's notorious that HASTE is our priority. Secondly, Sims are showing even though I am low haste, that I should crit/vers... How is it a pointless fucking question you genuine fuck-mong!

[lusty tiger]

[trail crow]

pog

Get 'em Juicy.

[jagged pier]

of course it does crit weighs for more damage than haste

[prisma crane]

we go for haste for reasons other than purely dps

[cobalt seal]

because it's 379 gear lol

why would you sim now

[jagged pier]

thats the thing about sims it shows u most damage not whats always best

[lusty tiger]

^

[prisma crane]

hell the class just feels better in most cases with more haste

[cobalt seal]

[trail crow]

but damage is best 🙂

[lusty tiger]

simming now is a little weird

[trail crow]

disregard survivability, acquire r1's

[cobalt seal]

what surv?

like

your surv comes from your play

[lusty tiger]

master-something

[trail crow]

Lol don't start going off at me homie

[cobalt seal]

dont talk about surv

and stats

[trail crow]

...

[cobalt seal]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[trail crow]

Who are you?

[cobalt seal]

Your dad

[prisma crane]

contrary to popular belief, i would argue if you completely ignore haste and talent choices purely for dps gain you aren't as unkillable as you'd think

[trail crow]

WR 500 andies pretending they know anything about the game lulw

[prisma crane]

we still heavily bias towards dps gains, but that doesnt mean ignore everything else

[lyric geode]

Haste/critical is the build.

[lusty tiger]

as far as i know cro's story; he doesn't play prot but has 2 prots

[lyric geode]

Critical to Versa priority is 10% less dmg.

[cobalt seal]

and you are?

if you pretend stats do anything for surv

[lyric geode]

Meaning that if you priority versa, you would have 10% less dmg.

[cobalt seal]

other than "confort"

you are oh well

[trail crow]

My name isn't a whole lot different from my character's, I'm sure if you're motivated you can figure out why you're punching above your weight class. But go off champ.

[lyric geode]

Haste has the same value in terms of dmg, but also increases our survivibility. That is why haste priority.

[cobalt seal]

literally doesn't matter if I play Pwar or not

in this case

[lyric geode]

Mastery is shit, because we have 100% uptime SB. And AP it provides is miniscule.

[cobalt seal]

Stats dont mean anything (or close to jack shit) in terms of survival

[urban portal]

that is just objectively not true

[cobalt seal]

your plays does

and it's 99.99%

of what matters

[lusty tiger]

ye i wasnt making a point just funny i think youve said both those things in here

[urban portal]

that is just NOT how the math works out

[gray wolf]

math works however i want it to

might be wrong

[lyric geode]

1% critical is given by 180 critical points. 1% versa is given by 205 versa points.

[fast knot]

And they said Fury was the rage spec yall wildin

[urban portal]

yes

[lusty tiger]

lot of eu fotm rerollers in here i smell

[urban portal]

and how many points do you really have right now

its like 3-4%

[trail crow]

It me 😅

[urban portal]

also the AP is not bad

1% AP is about the same cost as 1% crit

its just due to linear diminishing returns

[lyric geode]

AP compared to the mastery points we need is miniscule.

[ionic fern]

Mastery isn't shit..mastery provides crit block.

And literally values into most of our formulas.

[gray wolf]

shh don't tell him that

[urban portal]

1% crit is 1% ap

[coral marsh]

what crafted items should we get?

[urban portal]

thats literally it

in terms of cost

[lyric geode]

Yes but how many mastery points, to increase your AP by 1%m

[prisma crane]

yea, it's just something that's been largely ignored after we lost the extremely strong crit blocks of 88% at end of legion

[urban portal]

yes

[coral marsh]

also is there a cap to amount of crafted items?

[urban portal]

the same as 1% crit

[civic zodiac]

Hey, any particular trinkets that's really good? like which ones are best defensive and which ones are best offensive? been looking at wowhead and icy-veins but i cant seem to find any good answers.

[urban portal]

180 points for 1%AP

[civic zodiac]

for prot that is

[urban portal]

and 180 points for 1% crit

its just that you start off with more free AP

so you are gaining less % damage as a result

[prisma crane]

not as far as i know, only to the special effects on them if you choose to have any with those

[sly perch]

Protection in PvP, viable? 😛

[ionic fern]

Yes

[prisma crane]

quite actually

though we arent as stupid in pvp as bears

[gray wolf]

very nice peel

[lusty tiger]

oh shit rly?

[sly perch]

Anyone got a nice talent tree for pvping? 🙂

[urban portal]

you dont ever factor in the free block from mastery when taking into consideration how good it is

[trail crow]

Acting like play is the only relevant metric in competitive tanking is a dishonest representation of mythic ranking however. We build for damage and minimal survivability, but things like haste and vers still impact survivability, and if you’re reasonably undergeared racing for WR’s, stat breakdown is still relevant. Sire and Jailer are both fantastic recent examples of this.

[lusty tiger]

been waiting

[pallid quiver]

There hasn't been a whole lot of defensive trinkets of note due to damage intake and lack of interest since generally your play will matter a lot of than a defensive trinket. Offensive trinkets are generally about what sims best, as there isn't any major standout ones. The Blazehook one from Ruby Life Pools is okay, Whelp is okay, iirc the Turtle Shell from rares is okay,

[sly perch]

And pvp talents? 🙂

[coral marsh]

so you can equip a crafted engi helmet, ring, weapon and so on all at the same time?

[lyric geode]

The return of Critical is logarithmic. Meaning the less the value is for example from 1% to 2% is doubled. While from 2% to 3% isnt.

But given that we are talking about low about of points in the beginning of the expansion.

[drifting fable]

#pvp

[prisma crane]

pvp channel might, there's a few players who are notorious for playing as prot, name is escaping me atm though

[lyric geode]

Critical>>>Versa>>>Mastery.

[drifting fable]

troma

is the man

[lyric geode]

Basic eu4 spreadsheet

[urban portal]

its linear

what

[pallid quiver]

I.... heavily want to ask Sense and Matta their opinions on this, since I don't really recall talk about stats really, but it may have just not been relevant to discuss. I also don't raid due to lacking a guild, so I don't have particularly solid ground on my own to stand on.

[urban portal]

are you sure you understand math

your explanation is right

[lyric geode]

Yes.

[cobalt seal]

you can pretend they do

[urban portal]

but its not logarhythmic

[cobalt seal]

but it's a tiny fucking dif

that's all placebo

you think it's better and feels better

so you play better

[sly perch]

Ty I'll try there

[trail crow]

So you purport that building exclusively damage on the two hardest hitting bosses in recent history is something that top 100 raiders are doing?

Because I know this to be empyrically incorrect.

[urban portal]

hall of fame players are playing ILVL

not any form of min maxed stats

[trail crow]

Correct.

[urban portal]

they dont have the luxury to pick stats

[trail crow]

Eh I mean

[lyric geode]

True.

[urban portal]

yes

tier>ilvl>all

[lyric geode]

Exactly, m+ isnt up yet

[urban portal]

except trinkets obviously

[lyric geode]

I dont understand where I am wrong?

[fading isle]

So at end, what im pretty noob even if i did some m+. What stats should i look for with my Pwar?

[trail crow]

You still have some agency in your stat distribution from split loot and whatnot.

[lusty tiger]

haste/crit

[pallid quiver]

Item level. Str is by far the strongest stat by a large margin, both defensively and offensively

[cobalt seal]

what harder hitting bosses?

jailer?

[lyric geode]

Haste>>>critical>>>mastery/versa

[cobalt seal]

that did jack shit to pwar?

[pallid quiver]

After that, Haste > Vers/Crit > Mastery on average

[trail crow]

I used Jailer and Sire as the examples.

[nova cosmos]

So how bad an idea would it be to make the shield with silk lining? Still gear towards haste crit but have that free 1k mastery

[urban portal]

the rule of thumb is that if the stats are free then its good

[cobalt seal]

Jailer did nothing to prot

[jagged pier]

No ones supposed to know that 🤫 remeber prot was dead in S3

[fading isle]

Thank u, and thanks also the others!

[trail crow]

I played Brew on Sire specifically, going into that with a parse build in a HoF guild was not viable during the first few weeks.

[lyric geode]

If you have the option between 500 haste and 100 mastery, or 300 haste and 300 critical. You pick 500 haste and 100 mastery, given they are the same ilvl.

[cobalt seal]

sorry jakey

my bad

[jagged pier]

Oh i get it. I dont count i guess

[lusty tiger]

who r u again?

[lyric geode]

Ilvl is a big difference. Dont prioritize secondary stats over ilvl.

[pallid quiver]

i didn't know you pushed mythic raiding

[cobalt seal]

brew on sire

[pallid quiver]

those are literally the only two i know engaged in prog mythic raiding

[nova cosmos]

Yeah but it's between armor spikes and silk lining for embellishment. Peeps were saying spikes is 1.5-3% dps, the mastery is about 7-8% AP but you have to be above 90% hp

[cobalt seal]

[pallid quiver]

i'm sorry, jakey ;-;

[fading isle]

So haste its the biggest prio, understood

[jagged pier]

The ones you we given are wrong the actual prio is in the pins

U need to scroll down

[urban portal]

its probably spikes

[lyric geode]

They have the same dmg value as critical but also you have increased survivibility.

[urban portal]

haste isnt more damage than crit

what are you saying

[pallid quiver]

But that's the prio I gave. ;-;

i deserve this

[cobalt seal]

can the people that have no fucking idea

what they are saying

[sick sentinel]

W

[cobalt seal]

stop giving advice?

it's better to let others help

[trail crow]

You are literally wrong though. You are fundamentally and demonstrably wrong.

[cobalt seal]

instead of misinforming others

[lyric geode]

Increase our tick rate of our bleeds, makes us press more buttons.

More procs of Shield slam.

Shall I mention more?

[trail crow]

I can show you how wrong you are based on logs.

It's easy.

Genuinely.

[cobalt seal]

pls do

[urban portal]

crit makes your bleeds hit harder, your buttons hit harder?

its objectively true crit does more damage from sims

[lyric geode]

Also, I didnt say that haste gives more dmg than critical. I say that haste is on par with critical dmg.

[urban portal]

its not on par for damage

[fading isle]

Actually i only played season1 of SL and did some 20-22 with wrong stats, so now i pref to ask. So thank u all. Gonna check this DC frecuently

[lucid rapids]

CAT FIGHT

[pallid quiver]

If you link logs, it better be the same person changing gear and then barely living and not just them gearing for defense, because that is not empirical proof, just as a heads up. I don't have much stake in this argument, but I do have stake in trying to ensure arguments are made in good faith, and people have traditionally done this when arguing points.

[jagged pier]

Nah luence cause i tried that and was told i was wrong

[lyric geode]

Also, it procs more SS makes our rage generation higher. Shall I mention more?

[cobalt seal]

because you in pwar channel

[trail crow]

Or you could show a demonstrable trend that players killing bosses in reasonable world rankings are prioritizing survivability to some degree with stat distributions that favor survivability over raw throughput.

[cobalt seal]

and talked about jailer

[jagged pier]

We all know what haste does free

[cobalt seal]

I dont know what to tell you

[astral harbor]

Hey o/
how much haste do you recommend for prot warrior?

[jagged pier]

That doesnt mean point for point its more damage

[urban portal]

literally

sim

you can napkin math all you want

[jagged pier]

As much as u can get without droping strength

[trail crow]

I'm not even arguing it's optimal to gear around survivability, I'm saying selecting explicitly throughput and saying that's all you should build around is dishonest.

[pallid quiver]

What people are doing does nothing about what is optimal. I can point you directly to fighting game footage of people playing like ass and winning Evo, Combo Breaker, Frosty Faustings, CEO...

People often do things that are not exactly optimal or required all the time. If you're trying to make the point "Stats matter and are vital for survivability", you have to cut out the human feelings and variation.

[ionic fern]

Am i helping?

[urban portal]

thanks mwahi

[pallid quiver]

For one of the two arguments, yes

[jagged pier]

I dont think ppl will understand that mwahi

[ionic fern]

Good.

I like to confuse my advesaries so they don't know what to say.

[pallid quiver]

We'll see if that argument understands that (it's not your argument, Syru)

[jagged pier]

KEKW

[astral harbor]

more than 30%

[prisma crane]

https://tenor.com/view/confused-john-travolta-pulp-fiction-lost-where-gif-5377106

[cobalt seal]

waiting on logs

[pallid quiver]

If this is your argument, then it should be positioned around "how much survivability is necessary to live?"

Which will vary between tanks and fight

[jagged pier]

Yes ad much as u can get without dropping strength

[trail crow]

Correct.

[lyric geode]

With what stat %?

[indigo knot]

What season 1 dungeon pulls would go smoother with sigil of silence or Divine Toll?

[pallid quiver]

like, prot's survivability on Jailer, from what I was led to believe, actually literally did not depend on stats due to Banner synergy and the mechanics of block

[urban portal]

free why dont you just sim yourself

[pallid quiver]

Brew, however, had a bad time from what I've heard

[urban portal]

essentially yes

[lyric geode]

Everyone has different stats given that we dont have m+

[urban portal]

people are fading to autos

[pallid quiver]

they actually had a harder time living on Rygelon for P War than Jailer from what I remember hearing

[lyric geode]

Someone has more critic that he should. Etc.

[jagged pier]

U just lived jailet he was a joke after nerf, i know sense had to do some funky timing with ip for the bombs pre nerf but the melees still didnt hurt and i dont think he gear around anything

[nova cosmos]

IP scales off mastery too right? Still capped by hp tho

[prisma crane]

it scales off of AP, so yea indirectly

[jagged pier]

That doesnt really change those weights that much tho free sim yourself youll see 🙂

[trail crow]

And you don't think that on fights that have harder raw tank throughput see tanks with more survivability passing the "gate" of survivability faster? I don't even think that EHP is inherently wrong, I'm saying that representing it as a black and white choice between "Only pick throughput" is going to result in you spending a fair bit of time on the floor if you're in a guild that's running into content pre-overgearing or pre nerf.

[ionic fern]

Even with haste that low, it still values Crit higher. 🙂

[urban portal]

yeah

well it scales off of attack power

which is a funciton of mastery

also vers too

[pallid quiver]

but like

on the fights you mentioned, based on the experiences of P Wars I've seen in this server

they just baseline met those requirements

Extra stat just made it comfier

[lyric geode]

Weird, with that critical I should expect less value on critical.

[ionic fern]

No, critical is THE DPS stat.

[pallid quiver]

mechanics and playing around them were the bigger issue to survivability

[ionic fern]

Has been for a long time.

[nova cosmos]

So more value per button press as long as we are taking enough dmg to not cap

[jagged pier]

I mean your going to cap ip

[lyric geode]

Glad someone corrected me.

[jagged pier]

U use it to dump rage

[urban portal]

we were trying to tell you this

you didnt believe us

[lyric geode]

I needed evidence.

I am doing math in my head.

[cobalt seal]

you named jailer

as a hard hitting fight

on a pwar discord

like ???

[lyric geode]

Still, I was right about haste/critical.

[urban portal]

what do you mean

crit is like

SO MUCH better than haste

[lyric geode]

Anyway, thanks guys dor corrected me.

[urban portal]

in damage

[jagged pier]

The bombs hurt the first time okay

[lyric geode]

I am not talking about dmg.

I mean generally.

[urban portal]

i dont think anyone would disagree with you on that

but your details are off

[cobalt seal]

it's really hard to press a defensive on 2nd pull

[lyric geode]

Like I said. I agree with you now. Thanks for opening my eyes.

[jagged pier]

Again free the list u gave was wrong for grneral use, the proper one is in the pins

[jagged pier]

For some ppl i guess 🤷

But stats wont save u from a bomb now in my experience anyway ot was liks mega over kill cause i fucked it or i was in no danger

[urban portal]

the only thing that helps you live magical tank hits are vers mastery

[stray knoll]

guys is prot warr looking viable for high m+ keys?

[urban portal]

so if you wanna pretend that matters then go for it

[stray knoll]

worried about the pummeling there

[jagged pier]

Yes

[ocean yoke]

Dead spec

Killed

[stray knoll]

rekt

[pallid quiver]

no we're dead in the water, no tanks can survive a +2

[lyric geode]

To be honest, with that name I have in discord, I expect myself play brewmaster, and spin all the time.

[jagged pier]

That being said all tanks are viable for keys

Its just depends how good you are

[gray wolf]

fuck

[jagged pier]

Yer

[lyric geode]

Totally lost opportunity....

[jagged pier]

[pallid quiver]

don't worry, if SL season 4 is anything to go by, you don't even need to be good at your class

You just gotta play the dungeon right

[cobalt seal]

@trail crow where logs

I was promissed logs

[trail crow]

Yes, I'm trying to figure out why every protection warrior is prioritizing non-damage stats on competitive jailer kills

[pallid quiver]

shout outs to all the people trying out prot war in season 4 after hearing it's actually cracked and completely bombing it into the ground

[trail crow]

So I don't have to play 21 questions

[lyric geode]

That being said, how different monk is from pwarrior?

[pallid quiver]

but like

most of the major prot wars in this discord prioritized ilvl

[jagged pier]

Very hard to play now

[lyric geode]

Sad...

[pallid quiver]

like even jakey admitted stats didn't help his survival on bombs, the only major concerning damage during jailer

[trail crow]

You can prioritize ilvl and still have agency over your stats to some degree.

[prisma crane]

yes, but same ilvl most prio items with haste

[jagged pier]

I mean on jailer we were all about haste like we usually are as its our best stat but more haste more banner more dps

[gray wolf]

abandon secondary stats go ilvl

ooga booga

[vale bloom]

Hey! What is your opinion on crafting a shield with our spark?

[prisma crane]

its useful

[lyric geode]

I mean, how you have so balanced stat weight. Lol

[gray wolf]

i

am 384.smthing equipped

[lyric geode]

Ahhh...

I shouldnt have sweared a lot it seems.

[vale bloom]

ty for your answer - the final question is - the shiel with proc vers or the molten defender with wishstats?

[lyric geode]

Only 370 just because I was banned for 1 week on Tuesday.

[prisma crane]

the shield proc isnt anything real amazing, and since it's a thing that we're locked to only 2 of, it's less great because there's other better options

by itself it's solid though

so just pick whichever

[lyric geode]

Also, can you show your stats if you may?

[prisma crane]

i went with the standard for no other reason than i wanted the mog

[gray wolf]

tour stats, sorry been awhile since i've been outside of my cave

[trail crow]

I need a wider sample size, there's 3 public logs from 9.2 SOFO with prot warriors 😐 They're all running Haste/Vers, but I cannot make an honest argument that Vers vs Crit somehow made a difference on tank survivability without seeing tanks that were failing to kill as well

[jagged pier]

It doesnt and it was less damage to run crit

[lyric geode]

Ah ok... How much hours it took to grind all rep?

[pallid quiver]

yeah you're not gonna find many logs on warriors during that time; general consensus was that they were dog shit without the ability to tank a +2

And also, that

Banner was a heavily synergistic tool that needed fed

[gray wolf]

6 days for maxed 2 and tusk on 15 vald on 23

i need to touch grass

[pallid quiver]

The general consensus was wrong, obviously, but it influenced behavior

[trail crow]

Then how the fuck can I make the argument specifically on Prot Warrior for that fight, and how can you pretend that the statement that survivability was irrelevant if they literally weren't being utilized.

[pallid quiver]

I mean

You're the one who wanted to make the argument

[prisma crane]

perception and reality can be different things

[trail crow]

Why are you

Typing like this

[lyric geode]

That is something that should be unanswered... I would recommend a organisation that help addicted people. You mostly are on grinding reputation it seems. Poor you.

[pallid quiver]

to... to give space for rhetorical effect?

[gray wolf]

but my stats look so crips

[cobalt seal]

maybe

there is no argument?

[trail crow]

If you're about to say "it doesn't matter" then I'd like to see your evidence contrary.

[cobalt seal]

and stats dont actually matter?

hmmm

[edgy grail]

If something is 5% better it sees massively more play

[pallid quiver]

Like, I can understand your frustration and all, but uh, we've mentioned all of these points at some point here. You've opted to try to challenge the status quo, and so the burden of proof is on you

[lyric elm]

Some big discord energy here

[lyric geode]

Nice. Very nice. Now lets see @jagged pier stats.

[jagged pier]

Computer off

[lyric elm]

love you sir

[jagged pier]

In

[gray wolf]

his stats are 100 in all

doesn't matter

[pallid quiver]

The standing belief, particularly on the fights you mentioned, did not make a noticeable impact on your survivability. You can go back in time in the logs here and see the advice people were giving and were talking about.

[jagged pier]

Trying to sleep but u ppl decide to have like 4 arguments at once

[pallid quiver]

If you don't care to do so, then I mean, like, fine, but we're going to reference discussions that have already been had.

[lyric elm]

@jagged pier did you ever hear about dev hour?

[prisma crane]

the important distinction to be made is these situations cannot be directly compared, we required haste to feed the banner machine to max potential, which skewed it's sole usefulness because it had a baked in buff to our mastery and rage gen and damage tied to it

[lyric geode]

I was so much trying to build into the conversation just for this moment.

[pallid quiver]

And a drastic amount of survivability

Which was fueled by playing ability

[lyric elm]

He's too powerful

[warm plinth]

Looks like we're having fun in Skyhold today

[lyric elm]

Look at the offwhite coloring of his comment

Oh my god

It even has an emoji

[pallid quiver]

I've got free time while studying for an online exam I gotta take later

[lyric geode]

True. With 100% leech, he could solo mythic raids.

[gray wolf]

oh damn i actually made it

[lyric elm]

[gray wolf]

i'll fucking print it and put it over my bedge

[lyric geode]

Damn.... People really want to measure and compare their dicks.

[gray wolf]

i have small pp

dw

[trail crow]

If my argument is that survivability matters in secondary stats when you're approaching undergeared content in HOF placement, then I don't see how that's trying to challenge the status quo. It's something that happens, and has happened for numerous tiers. The implication that you go "Oh ilvl" and ignore both sims and secondary stat values on things that you do have agency on is something that doesn't happen.

It didn't happen in CN, it didn't happen in SOD, and if we look at the meta specs (because I don't have enough data on warrior to argue from an undergeared perspective, except that versatility and haste are two of our most powerful surv stats as well) then the trend would continue through SOFO progression as well.

[lyric elm]

@trail crow did you ever hear about dev hour

[lyric geode]

My bird.

[gray wolf]

nice bird

[lyric elm]

[lyric geode]

Thanks, its small but loud.

[trail crow]

I would love do devour you ❤️

[cobalt seal]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RBjbAFCq19LXf7Mm#fight=16&type=damage-taken&source=3
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JzgHGfCZ79RvynWN#fight=6&type=damage-taken&source=20
Player 1 and Player 2 have the same stats, player 2 takes more dmg during the fight, dies and requires 1.5k more EHRPS

did stats matter?

[prisma crane]

[cobalt seal]

No

they had the same stats

[edgy grail]

That is such a terrible argument 😂

[cobalt seal]

so what did change the outcome?

[lyric elm]

Oh man

[trail crow]

Do you think I'm saying you can play like shit and rely on secondaries to carry you?

[urban portal]

get luckier

[cobalt seal]

yes

[trail crow]

N-no.

[cobalt seal]

so why do stats matter?

[lyric geode]

My only problem with critical is that I have to play dice and hope to critical on revenge or SS and not on auto attack.

Lady luck please fortune me.

[gray wolf]

can we just run around in greys and not care about anything instead?

[edgy grail]

Should change your name to tinker bell of tanks

[lyric geode]

Give me your wisdom and strength to overcome m20s

[gray wolf]

cheat engine ur stats

[lyric geode]

If only I could. I would hack blizzard and gave everyone to you AH mounts.

[trail crow]

I'm saying that you have to meet a minimum survivability threshold, and when you're approaching content critically undergeared compared to the vast majority of people that are going to do that content after you, survivability still has value in meeting that minimum threshold. The argument is more nuanced than just building for damage; obeying blind sims for DPS throughput is a mistake. In the same vein, things like versa and survivability stats still have a pretty major influence in your damage intake over the course of an encounter, and blatantly ignoring survivability secondaries is a mistake.

[lyric geode]

To be fair I would waste an entire half month paycheck to buy AH mount... To bad I didnt play in BFA.

[prisma crane]

as an owner of one

[warm plinth]

Did you know that every single secondary gives us survival?

[prisma crane]

it's less useful now

[warm plinth]

What is a "survival secondary"

[trail crow]

I do.

[prisma crane]

now that the main city has one

[urban portal]

thats the biggest fallacy you can have

[warm plinth]

survivability*

[lyric geode]

Still. Quite useful to gather and sell atm

[trail crow]

Essentially any deviation from whatever your highest sim throughput is for a reason other than damage.

would be a "survivability secondary"

[prisma crane]

i mean... you dont need to put shit up that second

[lyric geode]

True

[trail crow]

Because you're choosing to do less damage for some other reason, whether it be "higher sb uptime" (probably not necessary now) or what have you.

[lyric geode]

I dont understand what you said. Can you rephrase it?

[prisma crane]

only time it's useful is if you're in a dungeon and you forgot one thing and just drop a mailbox and buy what you need

[edgy grail]

Everyone knows that your play has more a greater influence on dying that stats. People that say secondaries have no influence on anything are just ignorant.

[warm plinth]

So you're arguing that in bleeding edge content, they need to care about which secondaries they are playing on their gear, because they need to stat for survival?

[trail crow]

This is literally my argument.

[urban portal]

you are saying that you need to bet on crits on revenges and not autos for crit to be good

[lusty tiger]

Secondaries give the feeling of control over your character sheet

[broken crater]

versa does not give you a significant defensive advantage.

[urban portal]

when in wow you are doing so many actions that the RNG averages out

[trail crow]

zzz

[lyric geode]

I know, but still. I want to be lucky.

[urban portal]

crit is the worst stat if you are lucky

[edgy grail]

The thing is the majority of people in here that ask questions are casuals. I asked a question about SBV and people thought I was struggling with m0s

[lyric geode]

Very true.

Also, I want to earn lottery. But shitty luck as well.

[urban portal]

yeah tragic

[trail crow]

And dude, that's a perfectly fair retort "Most people aren't going into this content on a week 1-week 2 timeframe so they'll likely overgear any hard survivability requirements"

[prisma crane]

scarred battle veteran

[edgy grail]

For the majority of people secondaries is probably one of the last things they should look at. However #1 it’s fun to optimize and #2 some people want ANY advantage they cant take no matter how small.

[lyric geode]

If you have to sweat to gain 2% it isnt worth it. Like people playing druids.

[warm plinth]

World first raiders can't really be picky about what stats they have though. They'

[pallid quiver]

Like, you're going partially strawman on this, or not understanding something, so let me go with this.

We're talking about early, undergeared progression. This is why people are grabbing item level on Prot Warrior. It:

1. Provides the most damage
2. Provides the most survivability
3. Enables the most aspects of the class

Which is why ilvl is by far the most preferred in all stat weights you can see during prog with Prot Warrior. Once Strength is achieved, Haste is the best survivability and smoothness of play stat on average across all expacs. It also provides a reasonable amount of damage, making it the best combination of all requirements to clear an encounter. This is why it is first on the priority list of stats. The second stat is usually Versatility, because it increases damage and survivability. Crit is either tied for second (as it is now) or just barely behind, because it provides the largest amount of damage and a bit less survivability, but still provides survivability (parry, iirc). Last is mastery, because the amount of damage it gives and survivability it gives isn't as much as the other stats, though it is one of the stats the provides defense against magic damage. However, it doesn't affect general performance enough to be higher in the priority list. Taking less damage from physical attacks to enable more wiggle room from magic attacks is more preferable than stacking mastery. In addition, most magical attacks are mechanics that can be planned around.

Ergo, directly choosing for stats barely makes a difference on success because they all contribute to survivability. There isn't enough of a difference for Prot Warrior, even during progression, for it to matter. We're talking literally thousands of HP of our hundred or hundreds of thousands of HP of difference. What's more important is the raw stat value, and when able to pick, to optimize for smoothing play to ensure you keep play survivability up and providing the most passive survivability and damage.

[edgy grail]

No one is saying “yea add vers made it so I can take +30s now instead of my 25s”

[trail crow]

Stop typing.

[pallid quiver]

you can just block me if you don't want to engage

[warm plinth]

They're grinding out as much ilevel as they can because the survivability is granted by having more HP and more stats

[broken crater]

:kekl

[trail crow]

You still have agency over your stats.

[broken crater]

ah right

[edgy grail]

People just understand whatever they want

[broken crater]

how, you literally cannot

if they can trade, thats nice but unlikely in prog

[edgy grail]

Apparently no one has ever looted 2 pieces with the same ilvl and different stats

[cobalt seal]

take your own advice

[trail crow]

Do you think we just get drops from m+ and go "OH THATS MY MAX ILVL"

[warm plinth]

In a bleeding edge environment, you have less agency over your stats, because you only have so much time to farm gear from splits/dungeons if you want to remain competitive in the race.

[gray wolf]

yes?

[solid granite]

Trade? Without perso loot?

[trail crow]

no.

[gray wolf]

wat

[pallid quiver]

"What's more important is the raw stat value, and when able to pick, to optimize for smoothing play to ensure you keep play survivability up and providing the most passive survivability and damage."

Literally the last sentence in my write-up over there

[broken crater]

oh right master loot is a thing now again :3

[gray wolf]

did i not just post a picture just a few fucking minutes ago

[trail crow]

If you're not in raid, or you're gearing through splits, you're targeting gear with agency over your own stats.

[gray wolf]

😕

[cobalt seal]

splits?

splits????????

are you in a rank 10 guild?

[trail crow]

Do you think only the top 10 guilds split?

[pallid quiver]

He's arguing for Race to World First kinda de-

yeah to the degree they do, yeah

[prisma crane]

i mean, best way to talk about cutting edge players is to look at enchants, its the only way to judge "choice" when gear is in famine mode, but for reasons like Luerce said, haste is generally chosen

[pallid quiver]

Do you know how much time and effort those intense splits take?

[warm plinth]

But they aren't going after specific stats for survival?

Especially not on a tank

[edgy grail]

Depends on the fight

Usually tho

Yes you dont

You go for dam

Again thats not the point

[trail crow]

Yes, they occur widely between 1-50, not just 1-10. Both of my guilds ~WR100 have split as well for CN and SOD at walls.

[prisma urchin]

sorry to interrupt the heavy discussion, bnut a short question, which skill is HR? I just cant find it

[warm plinth]

heavy repercussions

[prisma urchin]

ty!

[pallid quiver]

Heavy Repercussions, same node as Into the Fray

[cobalt seal]

sorry for your loss

[warm plinth]

That is his point Danielsooon. That's literally his argument.

[edgy grail]

He never said tanks always go for survivability

[cobalt seal]

there is like 1-2 fights that you think about surv

[warm plinth]

He said world first raiders go for "survivability secondaries"

[cobalt seal]

jailer wasn't 1 of them

[broken crater]

i scrolled up

[lusty tiger]

Pain

[cobalt seal]

[trail crow]

that is not what I said

[broken crater]

I shouldnt have done that

[edgy grail]

You just want to understand what fits your argument

[lusty tiger]

Pain no uptime smith

[warm plinth]

And thus we're wrong to say more stats is better for survival

[gray wolf]

stay down here

[pallid quiver]

Honestly, this will be a while, most likely, so unless you have business and aren't involved in this discussion, I'd recommend just chilling from the channel for like an hour or two

[gray wolf]

yes imma go for max ilvl

[pallid quiver]

There isn't anything productive going on here

[gray wolf]

secondary stats are apparently worthless for me since they're all the same

[pallid quiver]

That's generally the point we're trying to get across

[trail crow]

This wasn't even my argument in this context.

You can itterate on gear.

[pallid quiver]

It's not getting across

[edgy grail]

Stat weights yess v good

Great info there

[gray wolf]

very good

[tender cove]

I tanked for a group that died to that last boss dragon in azure 4 times when it was their groups first run.

[prisma crane]

i'm thinking of chanting for int, thoughts?

[gray wolf]

very stats

[prisma crane]

figure it could help me outsmart the enemies

[gray wolf]

think we need it

[edgy grail]

Yes! More stats is always better

[trail crow]

If you think you go "Oh fuck, I got my 405 from Mythic this week, it's got dog stats for what I want, but it's high ilvl so guess i dont gotta do m+ anymore" you're so wrong =/

[pallid quiver]

i technically had an int enchant in pandaland

it was because it was for all primary stats, but

[timber kayak]

does prot have some decent self heal for once this xpac?

just saw a prot be like 3rd most heal in BG

[gray wolf]

impending victory is pretty pog

[warm plinth]

But that's a completely different scenario than a world first raiding guild pursuing gear

[trail crow]

It isn't, especially this tier.

[prisma crane]

yep lol, also, i want spirit back for that regen, esp trolls who got a bit of it in combat

[pallid quiver]

I mean, you're going to perform better if you get an optimal stat spread

but it's not going to make you live now

[solid granite]

it do. Healthstone ever 25!

[warm plinth]

I have the entire season to farm for a new item

[trail crow]

If you're making splits, you have some agency over what bosses you're going to be in on.

[warm plinth]

They don't

[edgy grail]

Yes impending victory

[gray wolf]

that resets when you slam someone in the face and they fall over!

[timber kayak]

ah yeah

[warm plinth]

And they're not gonna be like oh shit we gotta get Ghash in on this boss for his 20 more vers instead of mastery

So he can survive

[broken crater]

syrus just here to boast about participating in splits when everyone is more like 😴 because its giga boring content

[solid granite]

smth i want to do to this discussion rn

[edgy grail]

Splits are fine

[trail crow]

If that's what you're taking away from this, I feel like you've missed the argument entirely.

[gray wolf]

i have no idea why you would want that? we jut need some int stat weights going

[edgy grail]

You guys are acting like every guild that does splits does 10 of them like WF raiders

[broken crater]

my takeaway is: you think vers has relevant survivability impact and splits are cool

[edgy grail]

Yes I do heroic raid 2 times on heroic week

[trail crow]

Also I no longer raid at that level, so I'm washed up.

[edgy grail]

SOOO terrible

[timber kayak]

i kinda feel like leveling another warrior as prot, how slow is it gonna be compared to fury?

[pallid quiver]

But you haven't even engaged with half of the arguments here. Have you even tried to pick apart my write-up above at all? Have you even read it? You shouted at me to stop before I even submitted it

[solid granite]

my stat weight is 'whatever drops'

[pallid quiver]

Please tell me you at least tried to look at it

[coral marsh]

are you guys sitting on the non-unique big lootboxes that scale with itemlevel until forever or opening now to get more rep with darkmoon? im not sure what to do

[warm plinth]

Proably comparable as long as you take advantage of the fact that you can pull big all the time.

[gray wolf]

that's a nice way of looking at it, i too am a enjoyer of the purple pixels with higher stats than mine

[warm plinth]

That being said, I leveled as fury and I don't think it took longer than a global or two to kill anything until like 68 or 69

and you can still do sizeable pulls as long as you have a cooldown ready

[timber kayak]

gotta get used to that yeah

[trail crow]

I'm not engaging with your multi-paragraph argument because you refuse to acknowledge you're making the same fucking argument I am.

[warm plinth]

For most people it's probably just whatever spec is geared already

Like if you main prot you're not gonna have fury weapons most likely

[prisma crane]

hey, remember when someone asked for pawn, good times

[warm plinth]

and vice versa

[timber kayak]

were you like way overgeared for DF content? a global or two seems crazy, I had gear from the AH on my feral and it took a lot longer than that

[pallid quiver]

Then we're done; we're not making the same argument, and you're no longer relevant to me. On to the block list another one goes.

[gray wolf]

i usually don't look at pawn in public

[pallid quiver]

there's some time freed up, have fun, all

[gray wolf]

usually gets me alot of dirty looks

[prisma crane]

it's easier if you have a mouse with lots of binds to free up the left

[warm plinth]

I was like 301 on my war at the end of last season. I don't think my war got an upgrade until like...68 or 69 😂

[timber kayak]

ah yeah that'll do it :P

[prisma crane]

i've been a loser since the end of Legion

living in my own shadow

[warm plinth]

But I think a big part of it is just that fury has a bunch of CDs

[gray wolf]

u and me both bud, legion was different

[solid granite]

Did a a couple of realm first in legion. Now i suck - life goes on

[prisma crane]

i was just a parse whore

fun though

i do miss mythic raiding

[warm plinth]

I do love gathering saliva samples from murlocs

Nothing gross about that

[prisma crane]

i read that as Sativa

[solid granite]

i still raid mythic - i'm shit at it. But i'm having fun, so anything else doesn't matter :p

[mighty valley]

what on earth was the loot argument that just happened

[warm plinth]

😂

[mighty valley]

it seemed really intense but i can't even track it back to what point was being made

just people being mad at each other back and forth

[warm plinth]

A largely pointless one Harrow

[prisma crane]

i dont think it gets said enough so i'll say it now, having fun is >>>> everything else

[warm plinth]

It really doesn't matter who was correct because it only applied to top end guilds anyway

[prisma crane]

its just that for a lot of us, having fun = doing big numbers

[pallid quiver]

The basis was Cro got aggressive, then someone tried to argue that 20 haste will make the difference in your ability to survive over 20 crit

[trail crow]

...

[pallid quiver]

and they didn't even realize they were making that argument

[prisma crane]

well, to be fair, it wasnt 20 vs 20

[gray wolf]

oh boy here we go again

[prisma crane]

but either way

[mighty valley]

hell yes I revived Discourse

[prisma crane]

it doesnt matter

[warm plinth]

https://tenor.com/bcxIh.gif

[pallid quiver]

But they were one of those top end guild players, don'cha know?

[pallid quiver]

I won't get to be involved this time since I left that shit fest

[eager schooner]

[trail crow]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-gif-23730687

[mighty valley]

i'm personally trying a new gearing strat called lowest ilvl

[solid granite]

https://imgur.com/76Eq9gj

[mighty valley]

it's way better.

[pallid quiver]

wasn't someone actually doing that in beta

I mean, it was for them to try and adjust their ilvl to different averages to see how content was like, but uh

[mighty valley]

some people were getting really intense about testing when there wasn't any real m+ to do damage to them

not very scientific

[prisma crane]

on a "mildly" related note, i've never had this happen in like 4 xpacs, but now in DF i've had my shield break on me 2x and wondering why the fuck i cant SS for a second

i think the little yellow/red icons moved or something

[gray wolf]

good thing i have my backup heirloom shield for thoes times

[mighty valley]

oh I haven't noticed, guess I'm just in the habit of transmog mount between every dungeon

[prisma crane]

i just drop a jeeves

but like

i was fine for a whole pull until i realized lmao

[pallid quiver]

It does feel like gear breaks faster now, but that's probably placebo

[prisma crane]

they better do something to engineering though, it almost couldnt feel more worthless

i think it's because more stuff melees now

[gray wolf]

yeah my shield broke after like 6 hours of grinding keys before nerf to hyperspawn

think it's breaking faster

no doubt

[cobalt seal]

cro always gets agressive when people stats matter

[prisma crane]

or well, there's more pulls with lots of smallies

[cobalt seal]

when they dont

it's 99.99% the player

0.01% stats

[solid granite]

that would be a nocebo

[prisma crane]

https://tenor.com/view/dumb-and-dumber-lloyd-theres-a-chance-jim-carrey-gif-11098164

[gray wolf]

no chance for us

we're washed up

[pallid quiver]

is it fine if i blame you for dropping my phone into the crevice behind my computer, because i read this statement and then dropped it

i gots textbooks to read, man

[prisma crane]

but yea, 100% my shield's been at the shop a few too many times already

[solid granite]

i would.

[cobalt seal]

i got you

https://tenor.com/view/frankly-thats-a-skill-issue-hazzikostas-ion-ion-hazzikostas-skill-issue-gif-21595688

[prisma crane]

i think also because im on a dragon more than a regular mount now so i dont see the yak as much

[pallid quiver]

I refuse to accept this as a skill issue. Clearly, this is everyone else trying to keep me down and prevent me from succeeding

[solid granite]

the only one preventing you from succeeding is you. We're just your alibi

[prisma crane]

just for a fun devil's advocate, once you remove skill from the equation, if we assume all top tier players play at top tier, the relative difference of secondaries necessarily would increase

[pallid quiver]

fuck you that's not the wow player way

i've seen this talk enough in the past month to know

[prisma crane]

doesn't mean it's a game breaking difference, but it would go up

[pallid quiver]

I agree, but it's not going to make or break a difference as compared to sheer ilvl in terms of your base ability to clear an encounter, as all stats provide both damage and defense

[prisma crane]

well yea, tbf not a single person disagreed over ilvl first

[solid granite]

https://tenor.com/view/shh-shhh-quiet-bequiet-gif-25815062

[pallid quiver]

That's part of how the argument began, because I mentioned we'd need to showcase that the change in secondary stats made a notable change in survivability for the argument to be made in good faith, with both reports from the same player so player skill was a non-factor

[prisma crane]

@warm plinth fuck me, im looking back at logs from Antorus and it makes me sad to know that i got held back on argus because we had a retarded 2 tank strat

[pallid quiver]

and then they got mad that there weren't logs existing for that on Jailer, their example encounter

[trail crow]

Blocking me and continuing to talk about me is incredibly degenerate.

[pallid quiver]

this is all conversation that's been had in the past, as well, back multiple months

[fickle ingot]

@trail crow that cro guy is a clown amirite

[warm plinth]

CHAMO WHY ARE YOU HERE

[fickle ingot]

No external emotes

NOOO

[trail crow]

gif's work!

[pallid quiver]

I feel that every day.

[warm plinth]

Just have nitro

[fickle ingot]

https://tenor.com/view/smoke-bomb-gravity-falls-grunkle-stan-ninja-gif-12225309

[prisma crane]

i have the ghetto nitro

no stickers

[fickle ingot]

Same

[solid granite]

stahp posting this - gives me serious envy

[gray wolf]

can only use my recently used

nooo

[prisma crane]

there needs to be one for that ghost dude from CoD

idk why but i love that meme