i think you have 2 classes of tank dmg
#protection
outer thorn
do you still paly Barbaric Training with Tier?
lone eagle
Yeah, that's generally what I've said in ST
modern brook
no more barbs 😦
strong forum
and probably not in m+
lone eagle
Ppal ST was dog
is probably now decent but not high
so it's in that 36k class of tanks
strong forum
ive not seen anybody pull surprising numbers with it yet
lone eagle
Survivability wise Brew is still probably the squishiest although atleast they have decent reactive self healing now. They are just super vulnerable to bleed/mag dam which is all over the place
strong forum
pretty much all tanks do the same dmg in m+
lone eagle
damage, I think tanks are in a good place after the Brew nerfs
lone eagle
Charred Passions nerf, Resonant Fists softcap and Stormstouts nerf were significant but they are still prob highest AoE
strong forum
even post nerf brew will decimate in aoe i reckon
lone eagle
It's kind of a question of "how much" though
I'd be fine with more damage nerfs if they got significant magic stagger boosts
lusty tiger
Brm got some defensive buffs last night
lone eagle
Yeah, they aren't enough for overall damage profiles
smoky dock
@strong forum From a M+ stand point where do you see prot warriors as we get closer to launch?
lone eagle
They are good into non-spikey damage and pure physical
But anything else and Brew is clearly like 10-20% behind the other tanks in terms of survivability and TMI
strong forum
pwar probably the most popular together with VDH
smoky dock
Obviously tanky obviously great heals among the rest of the tanks is it pretty close?
strong forum
all tanks are really really close now
lone eagle
Pwar may still be preferred for exceptional key pushing due to how immortal they are
But the gap is much closer than previously
smoky dock
@lone eagle That or bdk until they hit wall
lone eagle
I think in raid Bear is the better tank honestly
smoky dock
You really think bdk for raid?
strong forum
bdk is exceedingly popular in raiding
lone eagle
It does great damage, has exceptional offhealing
smoky dock
I was reading bear is top for both m+ and raid but i have messed with bear for a bit
lone eagle
And is sturdy with better CD coverage than previous xpacs for tanks
It also has a low execution requirement to be effective
pallid quiver
also never underestimate how stronk grip is whenever you can use it in raid
smoky dock
I have seen much numbers for prot warr and bear for raid which is what I am looking into for guild
lone eagle
I think BDK is good from a damage profile perspective but it seems like there aren't a lot of great grips in raid atm
tl;dr, for raid all the tanks are pretty good
smoky dock
@lone eagle You are right about that maybe 1 fight
lone eagle
I feel like prot pally is in a weird place where most other tanks do things they do but better in varying degrees
So I'd struggle to recommend ppal into a competitive raid comp
After the damage nerfs, I don't think Brew really has a place with how good WW is
So I'd say VDH, Bear and Pwar are the raid frontrunners
smoky dock
Its weird though over years brew as always been top tier for raid due to stagger leveling out with content
lone eagle
And bear and pwar maybe more so due to the value of multiple rallying cries/stampedes, bears offhealing, and Havoc being generally in a great spot
strong forum
I was reading bear is top for both m+ and raid but i have messed with bear for a...
bear is good, but people put in too much sauce on their sandwich when they say that bear is best for both
smoky dock
Its annoying tbh I main bear all SL loved them but for one its boring for two I mean nerf will happen possibly or a rework for tree.
lone eagle
They did the most reasonable nerf
which is hardcap AtW
I think bear is in a good place after that with a UNIQUE role
tropic sundial
At least they nerfed after the wildfire for bears.
lone eagle
thank god
smoky dock
You think I thought it was going to be worse lol
lone eagle
The biggest issue with bear has been that they haven't brought anything unique
warm plinth
what about the gotta-go-fast button?!
smoky dock
I dont see a major nerf to prot warrior or even bdk
lone eagle
constant melee stack offhealing and Nature's Vigil is great
strong forum
what about the gotta-go-fast button?!
everyone has that now
lone eagle
and is kind of a counterpoint to ppal's more targeted spothealing
Also, Bear can easily pick up Innervate for raid
You have to shift out to use it but that's not a huge deal in a raid environment
tons of opportunities on many fights
tropic sundial
The biggest issue with bear has been that they haven't brought anything unique
Yeah at least pwar has bshout and vdh has brand
shy coral
do you need slam on prot?
pallid quiver
everyone has more gotta go fast with the scalies, too
smoky dock
I do see bdk still up there for raid though with anti shield few other buffs and dont even really need to heal them during fights less stress to healers that have to worry about bad dps.
strong forum
do you need slam on prot?
no
strong forum
lone eagle
and their tier gives them giga mangle healing
warm plinth
What if I want to use Slam
lone eagle
prob the best tank tier
warm plinth
smoky dock
I agree with that their tier set is pretty great at first was terrible lol or a jok
lone eagle
They aren't quite at BDK level, but for raid damage which is usually not that threatening to tanks barring some exceptional fights that usually fuck BDK out of self sufficiency as well
Like they'd probably perform better on a Guarm than BDK
And have enough self healing to pass the sniff test on anything that isn't a Guarm
warm plinth
I will miss this though. 28.4k ST dps 😦
smoky dock
M+ I am already set in stone for protw just was thinking about raid I want to look up some numbers for that.
warm plinth
We won't talk about the 10.9% zap damage
lone eagle
You can't go wrong with pwar in raid
I think bear is marginally better for raid imo
but both are s-tier
smoky dock
From my guild stand point looking like few to many warriors LOL
lone eagle
VDH also like an a to s- tier
Darkness kind of overrated, especially on a rsham-bad tier
but their survivability and damage output in a raid environment now is nuts
smoky dock
Yeah VDH isnt my style messed with it in beta for few keys just wasnt feeling it
lone eagle
I wish my cotank wasn't a VDH
I'd dive head first into it and not look back at all without significant nerfs
I've played VDH in several tiers and M+ seasons
Hell I got EN and ToV CEs with it lol
EN was a joke but ToV was 😓 especially with old spirit bomb sucking ass
smoky dock
Aye if its your cup of tea nice I do enjoy a good VDH in SL was fun to watch
lone eagle
Frailty stacking is exactly what the spec needed to spice it up and add complexity
Really happy with VDHs design in DF
tropic sundial
Somehow I'm the only war in our roster for now so I'm stuck being the bshout bitch or I'd also consider vdh
pallid quiver
what the hell is having a guild
warm plinth
Really happy with VDHs design in DF
now they just need not shit trees
lone eagle
Cotank is hardlock VDH, I'm the flex tank because I can 99 parse on any tank once I derust
but traditionally Brew/bear/vdh main
Gonna have Brew, bear and pwar ready this time
and hoping for the 0 hour brew magic stagger buffs
sudden palm
Does this have a target cap of 5? 🤔
sudden palm
Haha; I guess I'm just crazy but I swear sometimes it doesn't apply to some mobs
Like they get the TC slow debuff on them; deep wounds but not rend
ocean bloom
|| dont tell anyone||
strong forum
interesting
sudden palm
It's never happened to you?
cobalt seal
VDH also like an a to s- tier
no shot
sturdy sable
But cro people made up their minds about tanks 2 months ago
And only ever taken into consideration the bear buffs
And 2 month ago veng looked mighty fine compared to now
cobalt seal
and VDH got nerfed in ST /shrug
lone eagle
I think the biggest thing working against VDH in raid is that darkness is overrated without Spirit Link or into very particular circumstances, and that Havoc is good
cobalt seal
that's the only thing?
xD
they the 2nd lowest ST tank
behind 20% of the top 3
their utility for raid is lackluster
sturdy sable
But they do win for best movement
So
Its something
Gotta take those small victories Cro
smoky dock
@cobalt seal Tragic
toxic pewter
Is the bloodsurge back to 10% confirmed, I realize it uses same spell ID as arms but its not listed under prot
I guess no way to confirm it yet right
oak echo
no way to know it was intentional until they either revert it specifically for prot or say it was intentional and keep it
toxic pewter
Ok sweet thank God
oak echo
so we just go with it
mellow quartz
this rend application makes no sense
target a mob and do 4 TC's and still no rend applied to it while it just refreshes others
in a 10 mob pull
oak echo
yeah it doesn't seem to be very smart 😦
i wish it would like always prio targets that don't have it or the shortest remaining duration
pallid quiver
prot war aoe now harcapped to 5 targets
this is actually the reason i wanted them to just keep the instant full target rend application since i don't think it'd have been that much of an increase in comparison to the potential decrease from just not being able to rend things
oak echo
blood and thunder specifically is 5
toxic pewter
rend application better be smart... if it isnt that sucks ass
pallid quiver
of course, having actually smart application would be the best result, but i don't think that's likely. that's like, effort
mellow quartz
it's smart most of the time
toxic pewter
so it can only do 5 targets max at any time or wat?
oak echo
yes
toxic pewter
i see
pallid quiver
It'll send out 5 applications of rend, ye
oak echo
tooltip in the talent says 5
toxic pewter
are there anymore specs with uncapped AOE in df or wat
mellow quartz
so it looks like the application itself is smart however the refresh is smart for the 1 mob with the lowest time left on the debuff only
did a pull of 9 mobs in AA and 2 mobs had 4s left on the debuff but only 1 of them got refreshed
rest were above 9s
oak echo
we haven't had truly uncapped aoe for all of SL. they added reduced dam beyond target counts for the vast majority of stuff
mellow quartz
up to 10 mobs you can effectively consider it 100% uptime tbh
oak echo
by we i mean every class
last crest
is there already some sort of idea what trinkets we will 100% want at start of DF ?
pallid quiver
I hear the Lost Dwarves trinket is BiS because it lets you murder your DPS if they do stupid shit, but I ain't got beta so
toxic pewter
Dragonscale trinket from Nokhud seems pretty good I will prob go for that one
lusty tiger
Dragonscale trinket from Nokhud seems pretty good I will prob go for that one
Back to prot war?
toxic pewter
yah I just cant quit prot warr
cobalt seal
toxic pewter
yes that me
mellow quartz
ok, I will say the 'smart' application works 'most' of the time for TC and rend
and you will probably have to get to 15+ mobs before you start not having 100% uptime on rend either (besides the little longer initial application)
that is testing with only 18% haste on the leveling server
slow as hell TC cd 😦
the application and refreshes seem to be a bit more 'confused' when you get above 10 mobs though
warm plinth
I hear the Lost Dwarves trinket is BiS because it lets you murder your DPS if th...
RIP embed
pallid quiver
I at least clicked the link, so the feeling was shared
The intent is what matters, Ghash, so I respect you and your opinions
mellow quartz
Guardian
(2) Set Bonus: Healing amount decreased by 64%.
Well well well
What’s with bear getting 50% buffs and 64% nerfs lol
strong forum
its a net 0 change
fierce field
Buff to those without 2pc... evens out for those with
ruby schooner
What’s with bear getting 50% buffs and 64% nerfs lol
when a spec gets no attention or communication they just throw stuff on the wall and see what sticks
mellow quartz
Was the 2 pc that crazy heal they had every so often?
strong forum
mangle healed for 100% of the dmg it did
mangle got buffed by 50%
now they nerfed the effect by 64%
vestal moat
Beat just got rated top of S tier above every other spec in the whole game, dps and heales included, on Max's stream. (Dorki did the tank ranks)
vestal moat
he gave vengeance s tier also but a hair behind bear. combo m+ and raid
warrior besst in m+ but not raid so dragged it to low s tier
prisma crane
the tank called Dorkibear
i mean all of his characters have Dorki in them so idk how relevant this bit is
prisma crane
sure, but i dont think that means his opinions are fucked as a result
strong forum
a little biased
prisma crane
the most recent video he made on them had them lower prior to the recent buffs
strong forum
not a whole lot, but a little
yeah and in that video he said vdh is harder than bdk
prisma crane
as is ours of warrior by that standard
mellow quartz
Just reread the bear and 2 pc. Am I blind or does it not have anything to do with healing?
strong forum
yeah thats the funny part
mellow quartz
ranked bear S tier
Best way to get bear to be meta is talk it into being meta 🙂
toxic pewter
still think bdk will be meta tank watch wat happens
strong forum
it think its between vdh and pwar
prisma crane
for M+ i never count them out, imo nothing is as strong as mass grip
toxic pewter
these dungeons just do so much damage the tank that can survive the most will be king
mellow quartz
for M+ i never count them out, imo nothing is as strong as mass grip
What?
prisma crane
that said, if they cant live they cant live and then just wont be relevant
mellow quartz
Hasn’t been super important since legion
strong forum
mass grip will almost never be picked
prisma crane
i still think grip and mass grip are both just very strong
mellow quartz
We talking keys or raid?
prisma crane
always keys, idc about raid tbh
cobalt seal
it think its between vdh and pwar
you trusting vdh too much
toxic pewter
dude bdk just brings so much utility also its kind of crazy
outer thorn
in m+, does the engie CR count towards class CR or is it its own thing?
foggy wigeon
I mean if we sre going by just survability p war is pretty much just an unconsted winner being the brick shit Wall that it is right now innit ?
strong forum
engi CR is a normal CR
prisma crane
I mean if we sre going by just survability p war is pretty much just an unconste...
more or less yea
strong forum
pwar is the sturdiest yes
prisma crane
i just wish engi CR can be instant cast
idc if it keeps no range, just make it instant
mellow quartz
Has anyone found the non tinker slot engi rez?
strong forum
you trusting vdh too much
is still really fucking tanky and does more dmg than pwar
imo
foggy wigeon
Like were other tanks can Edge it out is damage or certain utility and i mean while tank damage is important i just have hard time imagining an immortal tank to not be meta
limpid pawn
for attunman you guys just jumping his shared suffering every time?
mellow quartz
Pwar has a shit ton of utility
strong forum
vdh, pwar and bdk are all 3 immortal
cobalt seal
tbf bear is also tanky as fuck
strong forum
the frailty nerf was huge but vdh is still solid
bear is also strong ye
pally and brew tbd
lone eagle
mangle healed for 100% of the dmg it did
That's the old tier
cobalt seal
That's the old tier
?
strong forum
then idk its something with using a single target attack and it heals for big time
and that heal is nerfed now
big whoop
lone eagle
prisma crane
Like were other tanks can Edge it out is damage or certain utility and i mean wh...
comes down to utility and your comp
lone eagle
The actual AP ratio post balancing now is 135% ap over 6 seconds after consuming Gore
prisma crane
if all else equal, having a VDH > Warr if caster dps are meta and vice versa if melee are meta
lone eagle
So yeah, similar effect but not tied to Mangle damage
mellow quartz
What’s the healing nerf then?
prisma crane
obviously not all else is ever equal, but yea, it's not a simple better or not, plus if they're close you'll always perform better on the one you're better at (duh)
mellow quartz
So it’s meant to say damage nerf?
lone eagle
It was previously post-buff from a month or so ago, 375% ap
so the nerf was from 375% to 135% healing
no it was a healing nerf on the 4pc
they just wrote 2pc
lusty tiger
is this real? for s1??
strong forum
wildfire is the omega ultra heal
foggy wigeon
comes down to utility and your comp
Tbh lets be real like talking keys 20 and above yea sure its gonna make big impact . But Also lets be real that majority of people which i mean just by stats are between 13s and 18s its just kinda doessnr matter really that much innit 😄
lone eagle
They recently 5 target capped it
lone eagle
is this real? for s1??
That's been real
lusty tiger
WTF
strong forum
They recently 5 target capped it
itll still be nuts
mellow quartz
It can heal pets though 🙂
lone eagle
honestly a wrist slap for bear
toxic pewter
that 5 cap is a joke lmao
lone eagle
but yeah, it can heal pets and we don't know how smart the healing is atm
so any BM hunter can totally troll the group healing
mellow quartz
Probably as stupid as pwar rend application
lusty tiger
wtf happened to trying to stray away from defining tier sets s1?????
a 5 mob sweeping strikes on mangle that has a hot
prisma crane
Tbh lets be real like talking keys 20 and above yea sure its gonna make big impa...
i mean at that point then all tanks are more than good enough
mellow quartz
Tbh lets be real like talking keys 20 and above yea sure its gonna make big impa...
Let’s be real if you don’t do high content nothing matters in this game.
lone eagle
Only on Gore procs
which granted, are pretty often
probably something like 70% of your Mangles are Gored
prisma crane
Let’s be real if you don’t do high content nothing matters in this game.
as far as tuning goes, yea
foggy wigeon
Ye But people still look at tierlists and shape their opinion based on that even if it doesnt really matter
outer thorn
the kicker is that those peoples opinions dont matter
mellow quartz
As with anything in life, going with 1 persons opinion only is less than ideal.
Going by random people on YouTube even more so.
foggy wigeon
Tbh i think the best bottom line everyone should know ( ofc every good enough players knows that anyway ) is to just play what you want and if you Master it you are gonna be more or less always fine for 99.9% content anyway
mellow quartz
You can also have people parroting other people and them all being wrong so 🤷♂️
foggy wigeon
True
Tbh im looking foward to seeing those little differences in mentality or opinions like even at high end play like there always is cause everyone usually agrees on most of stuff But has these details that they disagree on
mellow quartz
Tbh I hate the ‘just play what you want’ argument. What if what you wanted was doing keys and playing a feral druid in SL?
foggy wigeon
Its very entertaining to see
mellow quartz
You would have a shit time pugging anything.
frozen elk
haste > crit=vers for prot?
strong forum
Si
foggy wigeon
Tbh I hate the ‘just play what you want’ argument. What if what you wanted was d...
Yeah But thats just kinda the curse going along with the fact that you have flavour of the month specs ( or in case if feral never in flavour specs)
mellow quartz
Doesn’t change that ‘just play what you want’ is not always sound advise depending on the persons goals in the game.
cerulean tusk
Feral druid was so good in SL though. They melted bosses so quickly 
mellow quartz
Blanket statements are almost never the right way to go.
foggy wigeon
Yeah fair enough .
mellow quartz
Other than the blanket statement of ‘fuck prot paladins’
cerulean tusk
The play what you want, is a good answer for anyone that is asking the question of what to play. As the guys with a goalpost higher than 'play what you want' answers, won't ask the question.
foggy wigeon
Other than the blanket statement of ‘fuck prot paladins’
Meh , for me bears were for some reason a sore aggy spot
mellow quartz
The play what you want, is a good answer for anyone that is asking the question ...
If he doesn’t know better but then want to do keys but keep getting declined cause his spec is atrocious then it’s bad advise and he just doest know it yet.
Don’t think people on non meta specs only get m declined to high keys. Still very much a thing for weekly keys.
cerulean tusk
Play what you want, do your own key.
cerulean tusk
prisma crane
only if people continue to talk to random people like they're on twitter instead of in person
it's not hard to find cool people to play with if you treat the people you run into like a real person
outer thorn
i push with friends but i run chill keys for fun with pugs
mellow quartz
Many times I just wanna do keys. Some times friends are online and many times they ain’t and you have to pug some or all.
foggy wigeon
There is a certain stinky charm to it to pug it as a tank
prisma crane
well that's why i put ^ under @cerulean tusk 's comment, just run your own key then
cerulean tusk
Why you tag me 
prisma crane
always hate people who say they can never get invited
prisma crane
Why you tag me <:sadge:820202363359854633>
because i agreed with your statement
cerulean tusk
prisma crane
if you cant get invited (for various reasons) just make your own group
if you refuse then i just assume you're looking to be carried
or too lazy to work with the key you have
cerulean tusk
prisma crane
indeed
balmy briar
Hello, anyone done any testing with that Shield of the Hearth and its proc?
mellow quartz
Only running your own key makes it substantially harder to get specific keys done though.
mellow quartz
Healers should pull stuff, I agree.
foggy wigeon
I find pugging kinda charming in its own way . Its quite a different experience from static group . Which i like since its usually a breath of change
prisma crane
I find pugging kinda charming in its own way . Its quite a different experience ...
you just learn to pull fucking everything in a dungeon like plaguefall or you're gonna have one long pull forever
cerulean tusk
Am I the only tank that actually enjoy when hunters pull things in for me? 
strong forum
But it's only like 1.5% vers
fast knot
As long as they misdirect I don't give a shit
strong forum
Barely anything worth considering
fast knot
the taliban Evokers need all the threat help they can get
prisma crane
But it's only like 1.5% vers
but, and this is important, is that "bonus" or at the expense of additional secondaries
balmy briar
This has over 50% uptime
i got to 44 or so, doing testing on a tank dummy, but wanted to see if anyone else had looked at it,
lone eagle
the taliban Evokers need all the threat help they can get
Most Evokers bad
foggy wigeon
Am I the only tank that actually enjoy when hunters pull things in for me? <:ydn...
If they pull what i would want them to and not random shit 😄
lone eagle
Dragonrage in melee range
strong forum
Idk the source of it, but yeah if it comes at a cost
fast knot
Dragonsurge right off the rip and wonder why they immediately die
strong forum
It's kinda irrelevant
lone eagle
And don't prep stacks
fast knot
or whatever it's called
lone eagle
So not only do they do less dam
prisma crane
agreed, seems whatever if at a cost, if it's bonus i like it
balmy briar
whats the cost?
lone eagle
But they also rip threat
prisma crane
they ruined most of those flavor items by making the opportunity cost too high for the rewards
strong forum
whats the cost?
Well if its a craft able item, aka embellishment, then there are better items out there
If it's 350 ilvl max, then it's useless
prisma crane
whats the cost?
shields like the mechagon one that give a shield BUT no secondaries
strong forum
If it has lower stats than a normal shield because of its proc, its also shit
balmy briar
shields like the mechagon one that give a shield BUT no secondaries
its 418 max, but what would you use over it? it has secondaries.
strong forum
Sure, but does it have the exact same stat budget as a normal shield?
And is it a craft able item?
Cuz if it is, it's an embellishment item and you can wear 2 of them max
strong forum
Yeah so it's probably just better than nothing, easy pickup to get an early shield with high ilvl is probably my answer
balmy briar
its craft able, but what would you use over it? for crafted? since you wanna keep your 4p, doesnt leave much room for others.
strong forum
Helmet of vengeance and frost fire belt are probably the 2 best
Maybe for m+ the shield edges out for aoe over frost fire belt
But that's all just TBD, nothing to break my head open for rn
balmy briar
hmm, ill look into it, has anyone done any testing on them that is posted somewhere?
strong forum
I didn't, dunno if others did
radiant magnet
didnt post anything, but tested a bit. Helment of Vengeance and a piece w/ armor spikes was decent
armor spikes didnt proc as much as Tough as Nails, but was steady and could crit
radiant magnet
correctly used an apostrophe, your argument is null and void
warm plinth
radiant magnet
next time use yer
warm plinth
@potent anvil @shut summit Hi friends, hope you are having a wonderful day 
potent anvil
shut summit
jovial crane
Guys I'm struggling to choose between Guardian and Prot War. My pals are telling me War is my best bet. Is that accurate?
ember tangle
it's really a grizzly future isn't it?
jovial crane
Oh snap, prot wars are the dads. I might have to stay
mortal brook
warm plinth
<:Xeosbear:715449547568054352>
🐻
radiant magnet
ornate thunder
ember tangle
i don't think it makes a massive difference
radiant magnet
level as prot. pull it all, let the bleeds earn your next level
slim dove
prot for the reasons above
fierce field
Does war have other specs?
fast knot
mellow quartz
‘Does a class have other specs’
torn gulch
Guys I'm struggling to choose between Guardian and Prot War. My pals are telling...
Both. Both is good, especially in DF which is very alt friendly.
warm plinth
Is it? Having to do +20s on alts seems not very friendly
urban portal
Stop being bad
mellow quartz
Is it? Having to do +20s on alts seems not very friendly
Do you have to though? They are just trying to change the perception of ‘easy’ max loot from m+. Do you expect to clear mythic bosses on your alts each week also?
warm plinth
No, I see your point
mellow quartz
+20 vault loot is the same ilvl as mid tier raid bosses now so should not be faceroll easy to get. It’s just hard for people who are used to max loot from 15s on all alts that it has now been made harder.
warm plinth
+15 vault loot is equivalent to almost all mythic bosses now. They made it harder and made the loot relatively worse.
mellow quartz
Which makes sense.
warm plinth
Makes sense how
oak echo
15s are trivial content but to get the equivalent gear from mythic raid is not always trivial (i'm ignoring season 4 shenanigans)
they're trying to equalize that
lusty tiger
SOS need help, stuck with only 3 on tazavesh hard mode- please need 2 more
last boss
warm plinth
I'm not worried about the difficulty of getting the loot so much as this being a move in the direction of acting like M+ is inferior content when it literally scales.
Like idc if I have to do a +25 to get the best loot as long as I can get the best loot
oak echo
i'm not sure i understand. idk how long we've had the thing where the last 2 bosses in raid give higher ilvl but going back to at least end of BFA, it's been impossible to get a m+ vault reward that's equal to the "best loot"
mellow quartz
If anything this is the opposite of acting like m+ is inferior content 🤷♂️
oak echo
and a 20 is going to give you as high as you an get without doing the last couple bosses
like a 15 did
mellow quartz
20s in the vault gives 3 ilvl below end tier mythic bosses. Before you could only get 7 ilvl a below.
oak echo
^
mellow quartz
This is huge for m+ only players like myself
Also valor upgrades can be made to entry level mythic boss equivalent now
oak echo
like is it a bummer that you're not gonna be able to mash out 15s week 1 and get mythic raid look like we did all of SL besides season 1? maybe
but most guilds aren't doing mythic raid week 1 either
mellow quartz
My goal is definitely a 20 week 1 but will have to grind a lot of gear start of the week
lone eagle
Yeah, I'm aiming for an untimed 20 on bear or pwar
week 1
Which is def going to involve a lot of gear grinding
and getting a decent key with friends for one of the less scary dungeons on 20
torn gulch
My goal is definitely a 20 week 1 but will have to grind a lot of gear start of ...
get gear first 4 days then 20's last 3 days
mellow quartz
It’s a big grind though. You probably come into the week in the 370’s and right now on beta at 392 with perfect itemization you can probably realistically do 1 or 2 dungeons at 20.
You probably need abt ilvl 400 to do it ‘comfortably’ which is end of +17 dungeon loot.
That is a big grind.
torn gulch
i mean 20's week one puts you in like 0.1% of players doing m+
of course you'll need a big grind for it
misty moth
0.1% might be generous for first week 20
fast knot
Azure Vault is going to be a fucking nightmare for my guild
Granted the dps on 2nd boss were pretty much full ape and spread like crazy but that's a mad healer check even on a +15
mellow quartz
Will be super hard indeed.
You probably have to grind 8h a day all week for the gear
limpid pawn
what are the highest keys being timed this week so far
mellow quartz
On beta?
odd tree
0.1% might be generous for first week 20
Yea, I'm not in the 0.1% but I def plan on pushing to 20 week 1
mellow quartz
Shadowmoon Burialgrounds is by far the easiest dungeon.
I did that on a 20 fort and 20 Tyr last week.
After that probably AA or CoS if you can live last boss.
odd tree
Good to know, certainly going to target that as our 20 then
warm plinth
With what affixes?
mellow quartz
Just fort thundering and volcanic
But also had 4min left on timer in a pug with no voice.
20’s week 1 will require beta knowledge tbh
Doubt anyone will do it if they haven’t played the dungeons before.
warm plinth
I'm just gonna go in blind. Yolo
mellow quartz
Best of luck lol
odd tree
Same, haha
I'll watch some dungeon guides and run them a bunch as m0, but otherwise mostly blind
Hopefully having an organized team will help
mellow quartz
Definitely will help.
I think it’s more abt putting in the time to get the gear in the first week. As mentioned above it will be a long grind considering how low of an ilvl we start the week at.
mellow quartz
yeah you're what, 392 on beta
392 with free choice of max lvl consumables, enchants, itemization and trinkets etc.
fast knot
Mythic0 is 372 right
warm plinth
I assume it's somewhere around there, yeah
oak echo
yes 372
nimble laurel
anyone playing shield charge in m+ right now at 60?
fast knot
Can you realistically get Bulwark though at 60 without giving up a lot?
Without that extra point it doesn't really feel worth for what you lose
knotty idol
Does anyone ever execute without being at 40 rage? I used to use it on cd to stack juggernaut but since I don't use jugg anymore I find myself pooling rage to 40 before spending it on execute basically just to avoid overcapping
sudden palm
Y'all reckon it'll be almost as fast to level as prot to arms/fury?
First time thinking about leveling up as a tank; usually just go for dps and swap at the end but prot is lotta fun
warm plinth
I've leveled as all 3 and I think they're all comparable as long as you take advantage of being able to pull big as prot
mighty valley
Does anyone ever execute without being at 40 rage? I used to use it on cd to sta...
The rage:damage scaling is very linear, don't worry about pooling, just hit it where you'd hit revenge
fierce field
I was planning on leveling prot. Can handle some of the group quests solo usually
mighty valley
I always level prot but I have a pocket rogue wife
warm plinth
Your wife fits in your pocket?
mighty valley
so the pull huge -> kill fast works real good
mighty valley
Your wife fits in your pocket?
i don't know how to get out of this joke without sounding weird so i'm just gonna bail if that's ok
ran a few options in my head and none sounded good
neon elk
Doesnt matter just spit it
warm plinth
lmao
placid igloo
something something wife put a hole in my pocket because I'm happy to see her
crude notch
Something something just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.
dusty geyser
Something something I put a hole in my toilet
covert owl
Hello! New here. I’m looking to get back into prot for my team in DF and have been looking into trees and feedback. I just had a question that might seem dumb but I am curious. Does the 5% damage buff from One hand specialization outweigh the 350% damage boost+ guaranteed crit to shockwave in keys?
urban portal
yes
mighty valley
Hello! New here. I’m looking to get back into prot for my team in DF and have be...
Many parts to this - first off, probably yes in total damage, but we don't have great working sims right now. secondly, the 5% leech is also pretty huge for living. thirdly, slamming shockwave on cooldown for damage will cause CC diminishing returns on every mob in the pack, which will overall make things worse for future mob control
turbid elbow
yo wat trinkets should i buy w/ dinar for leveling w/ a duo. earthbreaker + swarm?
mighty valley
if your duo partner is cool to chain pull forever, old warrior's soul
maybe scars? you can pull a lot on 4th rune, trigger 5th rune, explode, profit
modern brook
Honestly use your dinar on transmog
mortal brook
get that sick lordaeron shield
modern brook
Your trinket isn't gunna make or break your leveling experience
neon elk
Wouldnt there be like reduced efect on trinkets above 61 or some similar stuff? Making it pretty much useles to min max curent trinkets
mortal brook
some trinkets are better than others, tbh
modern brook
You'd get a week out if it and either a) you're going to be leveling in prepatch and frankly won't need it or b) you'll be leveling to 70 and it will get replaced by a blue in a heroic dungeon by the end of that
neon elk
some trinkets are better than others, tbh
Thats not exactly trinket bein good( not that its bad) but rather how it scales with venth bear . Its just bonkers , idk how it went live like this
mortal brook
Wouldnt there be like reduced efect on trinkets above 61 or some similar stuff? ...
theyre NEVER consistent about it. if its a trinket they see used in mythic prog theyll nuke it
like we saw in uldir
mighty valley
transmog is the clear answer unless the weapon and shield transmogs look like ass to you
modern brook
I feel they've pretty consistently addressed out of expansion equipment out weighing current content t
mighty valley
in which case idk, take something fun to play with for 1-3 levels
mortal brook
sure, but some is scaled nuke, some is shuts off after lvl X, or just ignored until weeks later
modern brook
Oh like how it's addressed is inconsistent
mortal brook
ye
neon elk
Imho they should nerf old raid tiers stuff also,even if from same expansion
modern brook
Yeah I guess who cares though the end result is the same
mortal brook
what, didnt like using Aegis through sepulcher?
modern brook
Trinkets gunna be replaced, get jaithys
neon elk
Not only aegis . I still remember bfa
mortal brook
get gavel for your felguard
modern brook
Gafelgaurd
modern brook
Imho they should nerf old raid tiers stuff also,even if from same expansion
I'm less bothered by things like this. Especially if fated equivalents will be the norm moving forward
And especially with how frontloaded player power is expected to be for this expansion
neon elk
I'm less bothered by things like this. Especially if fated equivalents will be t...
If there is stuff like fated then its completly different story. But i still remember how my friend farmed font from azshara when it wasnt curent content, and there was like 1-2 groups per day at best, consisting 90% of casters hunting fonts..
modern brook
Yeah razor shell was toxic
mighty valley
i don't mind things like aegis that much, where the difference between getting a heroic and mythic one isn't that big
mortal brook
anything that makes me have to do a 20s pull timer is awful
modern brook
Mage players 
mighty valley
pulls should start with Charge
blazing condor
We would have 20 seconds dbm pull timers for our mages in EP
proud heart
werent they 35 seconds pull timers back in bfa?
jovial wedge
so pre-patch question, I'm noticing a bit of an issue maintaining initial thread when starting pulls, especially with Evokers in the group. Any rotational or opener advice?
lyric elm
all tanks have that issue, its an issue with the design of evokers with their damage being frontloaded
they just send
proud heart
its evokers being dumb and doing a 6 charge fire breath
if they dont wanna die on pull do a 2 charge at max
and let the dot do the damage
its the same damage overall, only not frontloaded
jovial wedge
yep, I was suspecting that but also wondering if I can do anything to try to counter it
thin silo
let them die, then laugh at them
proud heart
what im saying its not your fault its them not using their head
limpid anchor
Yea they don’t understand the ability
deep sigil
Does prot do good enough dmg to level as prot?
proud heart
isnt mob health kinda balanced between specs?
like a healer, tank and dps mob each have different health values and damage
at same lvl
lyric elm
Does prot do good enough dmg to level as prot?
yes its insane, since you can pull much bigger you do effectively much more damage
just pull an entire area and youre done
lyric elm
its evokers being dumb and doing a 6 charge fire breath
they'll learn over time i assume. its better to live than to be dead, even they can understand it
after they've inspected the floor a few times
proud heart
and its the same damage !
its not a dps gain if the mobs are going to survive
and if its a trash pack that dies isntantly theres no need to firebreath at all
theyre just padders who cant do proper synapse between the 2 remaining brain cells
it has happened so much since they were released im honestly tilted everytime i see a dragon
lyric elm
always hard to find good dps. its the hardest people to find in this game
thin silo
it's actually a dps gain to do the long-dot, if the mobs will live through it
gives more chances for the fire breath dot tick to proc that other talent, before having to refresh it
lyric elm
healers and tanks tend to take the game more seriously
deep sigil
Seems like i am missing the launch tho…
proud heart
and everytime they die
Bussystrasza: ....
Bussystrasza: tank?
mighty valley
to be fair it’s kind of a design problem since doing the full charge feels sick so it’s incentivized to do it
But also we shouldn’t get too worried about prepatch tuning
lyric elm
a stopgap is to pull early i guess
just go and let them catch up
not recommended kek
mighty valley
Eh unless the pack is lethal getting in there a step before them is fine
Damage gets going earlier
knotty idol
Did our rage gen get buffed in the last couple days? I swear I'm gaining way more than I was a few days ago
limpid anchor
In theory blood surge got buffed
chilly brook
theyre just padders who cant do proper synapse between the 2 remaining brain cel...
Idk just press your buttons and don’t lose threat
As far as the “they’re just padders” comment, yes they’re dps that’s their job to try and maximize their damage as much as possible. If you’re not actively trying to make number bigger what are you even doing? This applies to all roles even tanks
vocal wave
hey, i have a question for protection on m+, when i'm in a pull of 3 or 4 mobs, and one of them have 20% of health, should i use execute to spend my rage offensively or revenge? what would do more damage in that situation?
vocal wave
and on 2 targets? i see revenge deals 2.200 damage in my case, and execute up to 6.600
2.200x2 is 4.400
still less than execute
vocal wave
okay thank you
strong forum
still less than execute
but execute costs 40 rage
revenge costs 20
on 1 target execute is more damage per rage than revenge, on 2 targets revenge starts winning already
vocal wave
I understand, thanks!
ocean prairie
Guys in m+ if i get into the fray will i be able to maintain 100% sb uptime? The alternative looks almost overkill
strong forum
you need a huge chunk of haste for ITF + ED to be enough SB uptime
if you play ITF + ED + Bolster youll get close to 100% uptime
ocean prairie
Ok so in df m+ i'd say heavy repercussions is a little safer
azure furnace
Hello guys, does anyone have a log using the mechagon rings "3 different spells then heal everyone" combo? I'm curious if we can manage to fun around with 4 dps running that combo on prot.
strong forum
its like 1k hps per person
azure furnace
oh wait, its summ 5k, not 5k for each?
strong forum
well its every 15 seconds
so you gotta divide the total amount of healing per proc by 15 to get its hps
azure furnace
shit, no fun then. Ty. Just got it from vault and haven't looked into it
strong forum
its fun/fine if every single person in the group runs it
but it wont be able to sustain your dps players
azure furnace
yeah, unless i grab 4 boomkins. then shit jst disappear 😄
surreal mesa
anything i should have ready to go for launch? missed the last 8 months
jagged pier
nope
surreal mesa
dope
surreal mesa
sadly ill be on a plane during launch but come tuesday i will catch up
just lost all my ui and addons and dont remember how to set them up. get the guildies to fix everything for me
blazing condor
sadly ill be on a plane during launch but come tuesday i will catch up
better to be on a plane during launch than to still be in the gate when it launches 
devout parcel
Sorry if this is a FAQ, but how similar is prot warrior to blood dk? I'm currently planning to return to DF and tank primarily m+ (don't think i'll raid this expansion) and debating between the two. I know there's no definitive answer, but any helpful information on what to pick (again, specifically for m+ tanking) will be useful to me
Edit: my friend will be playing the healer, so at least I won't be pugging healers and playing with something different each key
blazing condor
idk how its gonna be in DF but historically pwarr is a much more smooth damage intake with active mitigation whereas bdk is more up-and-down with death strike
our health bar doesnt really move as much
pwarr needs to plan their defensives and mitigation much like bdk
not as reactive
uncut notch
Sorry if this is a FAQ, but how similar is prot warrior to blood dk? I'm current...
Completely different, one is a hps build the other is more about Hp loss prevention
devout parcel
so the "switch" won't be as easy as I think?
radiant magnet
easy is up to you really, but it's a different play style. with proper play and skill though, all the tanks are very decent right now
since pre patch doesnt matter, I would suggest getting your tank to 60 and rolling a few keys. you dont really need covenant or legendary.
placid vale
How is pwar dmg wise in DF? For M+
worthy haven
I have decided to play prot in DF for 3 reasons.......1. It was the first spec I ever mained (back in TBC, WOO) 2. Necrolord banner is gone!......3. I got the xmog I wanted to drop today and now my prot warrior looks by far the coolest of my tanks
spring holly
@devout parcel I think switch will be easy just because I feel like pwar is more forgiving than bdk
@worthy haven you can admit it's for one reason and that reason is #3 😛
worthy haven
It was definitely the final deciding factor
I was xmog hunting on my DK and my War this week, and the warrior got what he wanted
Which is the hidden molten lava appearance thing for the legion artifact
spring holly
That's a real pain to get now right? That was one of my few things where I got lucky and managed to do the trick in legion where you just log in and log out hoping for the roar. That method was up for like one day before it got patched out
worthy haven
I cheated....theres a macro that will tell you if it is up or not
warm plinth
Pretty low effort. It's just a daily attempt
worthy haven
and you can loot it even on a class trial
so I made 11 class trial warriors before it finally popped
spring holly
lmao that's hilarious
spring umbra
Want Monday.
hasty socket
Hello all, sorry to interrupt anyone. I looking for a good Spell reflect weakaura. I had one that shouted the spell I reflected. Cant find one that works. Cant find any of them saying Reflecting either 😦
crimson furnace
i dont even have spell reflect on my bars
be a man
take that shit head on
feel it on ur skin
bask in the glory of magic pain
overcome it
and be a better human
worthy haven
this guy gets it
crimson furnace
@hasty socket i see that the letter A is missing from MAN, now its all clear to me why you asked for WA assitance
HEATMAN would have not asked that question!
sand pebble
tc/rend change feels dogshit with the reduced rage gen now
spring umbra
Talents are for chumps
worthy haven
I actually run dungeons unarmed with talents shut off, nothign but my fists
and a block of wood i found on the ground for a shield
fierce field
There was a short period where the red dragonscale protector graphic was showing up as empty... running around with that and one of the knuckle dusters for my weapon, looked like I was blocking with my forearm and just swinging haymakers all around
worthy haven
I used to run mogged naked except my weps
but since DF is all about elements and shit, I am currently running with the firelands raid xmog, and the scale of earthwarder legion wep appearance
im a fiery badass
cinder nova
challenge mode
do a lightning mog
Since the first tier is gonna be all zapps
challenge mode+
have a mog for each elemental incarnate we ice each tier
hasty socket
HEATMAN would have not asked that question!
Sadly that was my firsty character, and since i lost the account, i couldnt make a another one. I changed direction back inn 2009 haha
hasty socket
i dont even have spell reflect on my bars
Best feeling ever. Not only DH can use the magic of others to fight !
sick sentinel
challenge mode
great challenge for shaman, if its just to come up with a lightning esque transmog with whats in game already
worthy haven
I like mogging a little, but I only mog full sets
I am way too lazy to piece together individual stuff
My main/main alt for DF S1 will be prot warrior/outlaw rogue (i like smashing my keyboard) for my prot warrior like I said Im a big ball of fire.....for my outlaw rogue, I have hte gold color variation of the venthyr covenant armor, plus a gold fist wep/gold dagger (Im a goblin, gotta be all gold)
fierce field
the only stretch I go is finding shield/weapon/head items that go with full sets
worthy haven
I dont wear a helm, because I am a Tauren, and the tauren head is more badass than any helm
neon elk
Laughing skull is bis on tauren . Also, since we going into DF go for that dragonslayer look with title as well , so they know what to expect
sturdy sable
great challenge for shaman, if its just to come up with a lightning esque transm...
Throne if thunder has alot of lightning themed plate
If you wanted to "do it on a warrior"
hardy snow
is fueled by violence finally working properly or is it still bugged?
uneven mason
I dont wear a helm, because I am a Tauren, and the tauren head is more badass th...
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they still haven't been able to make anything that fits over the nose properly
fierce field
Just need to rock the half moon glasses
worthy haven
But also, it implies im such a badass I dont need head protection
spring holly
I don't need head protection because my IQ can't drop any lower. We are not the same
worthy haven
Helmets are pointless anyway
My friend wore a helmet once
and then the boss just cut his head off
so what now
blazing condor
shouldve worn two
worthy haven
perhaps
bold seal
Do mythic dungeons and vault open with reset Tuesday or not until season 1 starts?
keen spruce
No vault after yesterday
limpid ruin
Mythic 0 yes, vault no
fierce field
There was an article on what's going to be available when for launch in the news feed 🙂
keen spruce
Yea, no m+ until after the first whole week so no vault
limpid anchor
No m0 either until reset
And no m+ until season starts no?
Would be stupid to have that active
snow brook
M+ start with the season (so 2 weeks in on December 13th), and you can get M0 loot twice, so you can't like try to get max level Ultra fast and get a 3rd one the day of the release
stark jewel
hi all, just wanted to know if it was possible to do a mouseover macro for taunt?
keen spruce
/cast [@mouseover, harm, nodead] Taunt; Taunt
Mouseover but will taunt your target if the mouseover is invalid
stark jewel
alright thank you 😄
eager rapids
hey does anyone know a really good guide on tanking in the game overall and what addons or weakauras are beneficial to use ?
craggy willow
threatplates so you know which mobs you have aggro on.
misty moth
Plater also shows this by default
odd tree
I'd assume it has a chance to fizzle, but it's super low
strong forum
No, engi res has historically not been 100% success chance
As it says on the item
"carelessly"
"what could go wrong"
"one way or another, someones getting zapped"
minor helm
Think there’s an engi line that makes it 100%
strong forum
Yes a tinker socket
minor helm
strong forum
Need to equip the engi helmet and slam in the combat res in the tinker socket
then it's 100%
modern brook
Smh just stop playing with people that die
minor helm
Leave ‘em dead
modern brook
^
minor helm
If god blizz wanted us to rez they’d give us Brez
modern brook
If you die in game you die on my friends list
lusty tiger
Lmfao
lusty tiger
Is that what we should be running for m+??
lusty tiger
100% brez setup?
minor helm
https://clips.twitch.tv/SneakyCrunchyToadTheTarFu-glRET_BTkHDBiQei
Outskilled
strong forum
It's just funny
minor helm
autumn atlas
Speaking of brez, has anyone else been playing around with it? I was getting like 50% failure rate anytime I tried it without the second tinker active.
Not sure if that was just bad luck or if it’s legitimately that low of a chance
lusty tiger
https://clips.twitch.tv/SneakyCrunchyToadTheTarFu-glRET_BTkHDBiQei
Is there a reason to not go engi/alch
modern brook
Money
lusty tiger
Or can I technically get away with going alch and work ordering everything else?
strong forum
I will work order everything
minor helm
You can work order it all
strong forum
Cba professions
autumn atlas
You can’t work order the goggles right?
soft bridge
No profession specific gear as blacksmith requirement?
autumn atlas
Have to be eng to equip goggles I thought.
strong forum
Pretty sure all embellishments don't require to be in that profession
Wouldn't make sense otherwise
lusty tiger
So it’s already been figured out which crafted items for which slots for DF m+ prot war?
odd tree
Have to be eng to equip goggles I thought.
I think this is right, tho anyone can wear the tinker bracers
minor helm
Wouldn’t max level gear be better than crafter gear? Since it caps at like beginner boss mythic ilvl
lusty tiger
I don’t need a dungeon breakdown guide I want like a item slot bis list enchants and professions
lusty tiger
Wouldn’t max level gear be better than crafter gear? Since it caps at like begin...
Yea but I’ll happily spend a a few 100k gold on getting high ilvl slots before then
minor helm
But then they wouldn’t be bis so it wouldn’t be on the list
lusty tiger
Wouldn’t you say pre mythic raid content is a tier
Since there will be a bis list excluding raid items until mythic raid is open
minor helm
Mythic raid comes out same time everything else does
lusty tiger
But are there crafting professions out before then?
chrome falcon
gang can i get a real quick raiding build for level 60
first time logging in this patch
lusty tiger
Well
Cry when u press execute for us all
I also do not think my group of 3 will be able to do +20s when they come out
strong forum
20s will be really tough early on
chrome falcon
I also do not think my group of 3 will be able to do +20s when they come out
generally i'd recommend running 5 people in m+ yeah
lusty tiger
Yea I have been trying to put together a group for about 8 months now
Barley have 3 lol
It’s tough and one is not ready for 20+ yet he says 18 is a high key still
chrome falcon
yep found it ty
lusty tiger
<:wicked:937093876857045012>
I clearly am only playing this spec at 85% or less but not having competition with my premade makes it difficult to do better
If u did 2x your dd dps every key u would be QQ aswell prob
odd tree
Eeww, fort + raging week 1
jagged pier
i mean raging kinda sucks for all tanks one week 1 when your undergeared
sturdy sable
Just put your shield up
lusty tiger
I hate how u can have a group full of classes with enrage dispel but nobody is gonna take it
odd tree
week 1 it'll really suck
shut summit
healer heal
strong forum
i mean raging kinda sucks for all tanks one week 1 when your undergeared
assuming the rotation doesnt change
oh nvm
they posted it
mighty egret
that week 2 tho
outer thorn
as a tank I welcome the return of spiteful as a free affix
sturdy sable
I hate spiteful
Everyone thinks padding on ghosts is the play
The literally die over time
lusty tiger
Depends how far you have to go to the next pack in my experience
outer thorn
Either way I get to file it under "Not My Problem"
prisma crane
Either way I get to file it under "Not My Problem"
not directly* your problem
you're playing poorly if you're effectively ignoring them completely
fast knot
Raging Nokhud Offensive with those archers? Can't wait for people to eat Multishots to the face while I just sit immortal and watch them die
HoV too with their "penetrating shot doesn't do anything" lookin asses
strong forum
thats sidesteppable
fast knot
Absolutely but my dps are braindead
vital sinew
^^^^^^
mental scarab
Why sidestep when We have healers 
vale plover
Is plater broken or have I not set something up right? Nameplates colors seem all over the place, would expect them to match the threat colors.
manic scaffold
is there a weak aura for seeing red
vital sinew
99% of the time an import script is changing default plater settings
pulsar herald
is dark iron dwarf a fine race for war
hollow token
Mighty fine race you got there
pulsar herald
im wondering if it can compete with regular dwarf in high keys
cobalt seal
im wondering if it can compete with regular dwarf in high keys
Races dont matter
Pick the one you like the visual the most
pulsar herald
hm my friend warned me from asking in the class discord because I will get this answer and told me to ask high rio streamers instead
im dissapointed that he was correct
modern brook
Lmao
cobalt seal
Bye
hollow token
hm my friend warned me from asking in the class discord because I will get this ...
Wow
pulsar herald
Dark iron dwarf is a dog shit race
thank you for the honesty
modern brook
no problem
empty path
Races dont matter
I playing IF dwarf and stoneform is massive def CD tbh 😄
modern brook
another happy customer where's my orange yellow :^)
minor helm
hm my friend warned me from asking in the class discord because I will get this answer and told me to ask high rio streamers instead
eager schooner
im dissapointed that he was correct
pulsar herald
it is the truth
minor helm
Might hit mud with this one
hardy ridge
hm my friend warned me from asking in the class discord because I will get this ...
well of course, you're asking a question which only matters to like < 1% of people while the people answering arent all in that category
hollow token
Real key push elitists make their own race.
drifting pewter
I can't believe I just witnessed that
pulsar herald
but I asked the question especially regarding to high keys
strong forum
the diff between dorf and did is minimal
soft bridge
@pulsar herald what do you consider high keys?
pulsar herald
top 5%
minor helm
strong forum
top 5% isnt high enough for it to matter
lofty widget
i got hero title as nelf, race doesnt matter
hardy ridge
I know, but not all people who will want to answer you are top 1%
pulsar herald
im pretty sure smeld saved me in +2 before
drifting pewter
The odds of you pushing keys is most likely differences in routing or how the pulls go, not really because you had stoneform or not
pulsar herald
dwarf racial also matters in +10
minor helm
strong forum
hazy thicket
Amazing
storm merlin
It really doesn't matter
hollow token
Sounds like you already had your mind made up and this just feels like a strange flex
drifting pewter
We did it they found the answer
minor helm
Chatting has never been more appropriate
pulsar herald
idk why u guys are against min maxing
pulsar herald
u can play the game as u wish
modern brook
High key
If you're asking what race to play
you have more to worry about than what race to play wrt min maxing
🤷♂️
hazy thicket
Are you also going to move closer to the servers for that latency min/max?
drifting pewter
U asked a question, had it answered, then said I'll just ask streamers instead
hollow token
^
tired pivot
if it doesn't matter, why are most top prot players dwarves
hardy ridge
u can play the game as u wish
race min maxing only matters when you're pushing the highest of keys
cobalt seal
it really doesnt matter
thx I will ask top rio streamer why is he using orc
jagged pier
https://clips.twitch.tv/StormyMoistElkDuDudu-gM2l270A8n6o5gme
but if i learn to press my buttons, i cant live in ignorant bliss and say it was somthing else when i died to something i shouldnt have
sonic tangle
storm shell
the top one is orc 
storm merlin
And even in the literal top 0.001% keys, it's a minor difference
tired pivot
but it is a difference
strong forum
if thats your answer
tired pivot
and dwarves are the most popular m+ race for a reason
strong forum
then idk what to say
mortal brook
got yer answer lmao
cobalt seal
but it is a difference
so is pushing your buttons better
tired pivot
at the top level
soft bridge
more important than racial is transmog. Have to look good while timing those high keys imo
tired pivot
why would I actively choose to make the game harder for myself, instead of easier
strong forum
bro you cant be for real
lofty widget
at the top level
top 5 % keys isnt the top lvl
hardy ridge
even if dwarf is better in high keys, its possible another race is better specifically for the content you're doing so its a bit of a slippery slope
storm merlin
Yeah, but outside of hyper-niche situations that only happens for maybe 3 groups in the game, it won't make a difference. You could've avoided falling into that situation by playing better
tired pivot
when I am trying to go for top 0.00001%
mortal brook
cuz you making our morning difficult
cobalt seal
why would I actively choose to make the game harder for myself, instead of easie...
why did people use codex then?
why?
it made the game harder for them
strong forum
i refuse to elaborate on this if you cant understand this yourself
mortal brook
why did people use codex then?
was it cuz others were using it?
soft bridge
well one racial might be better for one dungeon, than for a different dungeon. So lets break it down to which one specifically
sonic tangle
People using codex probably had nothing else to wear, or they were memeing and reliving when that trinket was decent
modern brook
was it cuz others were using it?
lusty tiger
hm my friend warned me from asking in the class discord because I will get this ...
Why did I have to read the most cringe comment this month
storm shell
beat him up bois 
storm merlin
People using codex probably had nothing else to wear, or they were memeing and r...
Which was.. Never. It was never good.
sonic tangle
Which was.. Never. It was never good.
I said decent not good. There were definitely better choices out there
pulsar herald
If they have to ask here they aren’t doing 0.0001% content lmao
do you believe
tired pivot
I get that you guys want to let new players know that races are not a big thing. But they will absolutely be relevant when you are trying to min-max those things that are not, to quote one of you earlier:"moving to another server so you have 1 ms less"
pulsar herald
that every 1% key doer knows everything about every class
storm merlin
I get that you guys want to let new players know that races are not a big thing....
They literally are
tired pivot
min-maxing is fine, your opposition to it is honestly sad
storm merlin
min-maxing is fine, your opposition to it is honestly sad
^literal top tier healer^
tired pivot
Especially when there are communities out there, that do focus on these min-maxes
hazy thicket
No, no. You mis understand. I meant physically moving house to be closer to the actual servers
minor helm
that every 1% key doer knows everything about every class
I believe every 1% key doer understands races and the ability to sim it
hardy ridge
min-maxing is fine, your opposition to it is honestly sad
min-maxing for a 30 key is very different than min maxing for a 10, which is probably clsoer to the content he is asking about
tired pivot
no
storm shell
@tired pivot they just don't like how dwarfs look, bunch of casuals caring how they look, don't listen to them
pulsar herald
I believe every 1% key doer understands races and the ability to sim it
sim dark iron dwarf 1% overall physdamage reduction vs dwarf damage reduction cd for me in keys please
do it
tired pivot
sims are irrelevant
lusty tiger
We have enough phys reduction
tired pivot
what matters is the burst of defensive power
lusty tiger
More than enough
mortal brook
oh boi
drifting pewter
If you're just worse at tanking it won't matter what you play lol
strong forum
you realise
tropic sundial
lofty widget
modern brook
SMH
strong forum
that the impact between races
strong forum
is beyond fucking minimal
lusty tiger
Wahhhh