it's really weird
#protection
mellow bridge
robust quiver
instruments not spawning etc
i think they fixed it during s3, but something in s4 must have bugged it out again
but as other said it's difficult to reproduce
but i agree, it probably is combat related, some wierd corner case
i was just malding because it happened both of the last two runs i did
next time i'll try to pull the infiltrator after i pick up the horn
shell hound
in general what is an "okay" dps in keys ?
dawn canyon
10k+
robust quiver
in general what is an "okay" dps in keys ?
i'm super bad, but i usually float between 11-12 and 14-15k
it heavly depends on keylevel and the specific key
dawn canyon
if you play banner properly your dps will just end up there naturally
shell hound
ye ofc it dpends on key just wanted to see how faar am i 😄
robust quiver
if you play banner properly your dps will just end up there naturally
this btw, i usually get the highest dps in depot, which is also where i get the most banner uptime
(gimmicks aside, like junkyard bots)
chrome falcon
grimail owns grimrail owns
you spend like 15 seconds in that instance not in combat
it's so good
robust quiver
you spend like 15 seconds in that instance not in combat
my rogue keeps malding because he doesn't get stealth resets, send help
toxic pewter
Grimrail unironically my favorite season 4 dungeon and most fun
Bosses are all fun
Trash is fun and back to back action
It’s quick and succinct
strong forum
i like JY
toxic pewter
I’m having more fun this season than last season
sick sentinel
mythic plus new dungeons is a change in world of warcraft that has changed
i can say that much
tropic gorge
so, i still want deadmines
lets go blizzard! give us a deadmines m+ run
vanilla DM, not the cata updated one
robust quiver
lets go blizzard! give us a deadmines m+ run
tropic gorge
imagione the chaos og DM would be. especioally the boiler room
and the ramps up to the ship
yesssss
sick sentinel
nonono sanguine on that boat
tropic gorge
inside DM
mellow bridge
casual 80 mins timer 
outer solstice
how do I choose which defensive trinket I choose? between the guardian and the 9 one?
drifting fable
if you have to ask, take the guardian one
blazing condor
I always like having aegis
But it usually isnt super needed unless you push
But easier to farm the 3rd boss than the 7th or whatever it is
outer solstice
if you have to ask, take the guardian one
nah it's more about what factors are important, both trinkets are amazing and I used both trinketss when they were current, I jsut feel like the trinket of the 9 is the waaaay stronger defensive trinket, especially for the things that kill us
drifting fable
you are correct but RDM will be more effectively offensively. aegis is more of a trinket that exists for when youre running keys that will kill you outright in some packs
thus if you know when you need aegis, you already know when you need aegis
ultimately its preference though.
outer solstice
yeah but if I want an offensive trinket,... I would go with a real offensive trinket
like the DPS guardian one
but yeah gonna go with the one from the 9 then
let's see if I loot it next week xD
drifting fable
RDM does a good chunk of healing and offense so its a good all around. what keys are you pushing?
outer solstice
just around 24s and backup tank in raid
I just feel way safer with aegis
especially for the 2 guys in ID after 1st boss, that dot hurts
drifting fable
thats fine then, it really does come down to preference at that level
RDM still performs very well
outer solstice
yeah I guess I does, but for an offensive option I actually have the guardian DPS trinket and the "bike" from junkyard
drifting fable
im a big fan of SFA as well
outer solstice
for ST it's giga
lofty widget
does sfa scale well into aoe?
outer solstice
nah
it's a ST raid-padding trinket
for AoE padding, I guess halondrus trinket might be best, anyone tried how it is scaled rn?
or maybe even scars
drifting fable
chains sims pretty well too iirc
drifting fable
yeah im thinking scars too, was able to get sfa off a drop luckily
outer solstice
chains sims pretty well too iirc
same with scars I don't really like chains, you actually have to play around them
that's why I really like halondrus one and the bike, but I guess scars and chains are actually better if you don't mess them up
toxic pewter
Rdm does very good damage and healing
Rdm like 8% overall damage
And 10% overall healing
In m+
lime urchin
frens
quiet plank
Is it wise to use SB and IP together for the most overall damage mitigation? If your going up against blockable attacks?
quiet plank
Thanks guys for the quick response
chrome falcon
You spam revenge to burn rage and then if you have any leftover you use it on IP
(you will have lots leftover)
queen hemlock
Do you macro you avatar with last stand?
queen hemlock
I have instances where i accident pop last stand while its Keybinded to other shut
edgy grail
In here
jagged pier
no
queen hemlock
Ok
edgy grail
You press IP a lot more than SB
south zealot
you should put youre ip and sb
on different parts of the keyboard
so you use different fingers
jagged pier
get stronger fingers
edgy grail
Go exercise your weak fingers
jagged pier
revenge SS IP and SB all use the same finger for me
edgy grail
Ngl it’s actually a common problem with gamers
Seems like a meme but getting a grip trainer and stretching your fingers goes a long way
lunar merlin
Ye my index finger pops SB SS IP and thunderclap
icy flax
Seems like a meme but getting a grip trainer and stretching your fingers goes a ...
A grip strength trainer is my go to with adjustable resistance, pretty sure it was like $5 and it's awesome
edgy grail
Yea I dont have an adjustabble one but I have on that has like slots for individual fingers
really nice
icy flax
Ooh yea that came in the package I didn't really give it a try though
Gave it to my mom lol
icy flax
Hell yea, i gotta get back to using it if imma play prot war
simple agate
how important is crit for prot like is it needed at all i have 6%
dawn canyon
Not really needed
cinder nova
how important is crit for prot like is it needed at all i have 6%
There are no requirements for any stats in PWarr in order to play it. Higher haste is generally always better, but there's no "When you're below 15% Vers you struggle" kind of breakpoint.
simple agate
i more or less knew that i was just wondering if there was a significent dmg increase at all from stacking a bit of crit
mighty valley
crit sims pretty great for me now
jovial kraken
should I be able to hold 2mins of banner uptime in starter gear (m0 loot, 24% haste), or is that not really feasible?
lofty widget
if you have 4pc, yes
jovial kraken
ah yes, forgot to mention I do have 4pc
tender cove
I hear everyone say necrolord takes so much more effort and need to play "perfectly", which is fair I guess but nobody mentions why and what the big difference is in terms of gameplay to say kyrian?
jovial kraken
if you have 4pc, yes
Alright, then I have a lot of work to do (topping out around 1min currently). Thanks for the reply.
lofty widget
I hear everyone say necrolord takes so much more effort and need to play "perfec...
difference is the skill expression of kyrian is just sending spear on cd, the skill expression of necro is actually playing the class well and keeping high uptimes on banner
mighty valley
I hear everyone say necrolord takes so much more effort and need to play "perfec...
It's more that it holds you to a higher standard - if you play poorly as Necrolord, you lose all the value of the cov ability which is a huge part of your power. If you play poorly as Kyrian, the game doesn't tell you as loudly
lofty widget
but if youre playing optimally theres 0 difference in playstyle between kyr and necro in theory
lofty widget
im referring to the playstyle
south zealot
yeah not much difference actually playing the spec in terms of gameplay
sinful plover
Is kyrian the superior choice on necro week? Phial cleansing and kleia’s 8 second immune is pretty awesome.
south zealot
no
sinful plover
Plus spears teathering to help kite
dawn canyon
Necrolord makes it glaringly obvious if you are or arent playing the class correctly
mighty valley
no, banner power is so insanely strong now that the gap is too big
south zealot
you would jave to get a stun
mighty valley
also necrotic just isn't nearly as big a deal as it used to be
tender cove
It's more that it holds you to a higher standard - if you play poorly as Necrolo...
Ahh, ok, that makes more sense. I was thinking you need to play decent regardless of choice but in terms of cov value I get it now. thanks 🙂
south zealot
you do, of course but for necro its like rune weapon
mighty valley
yeah, if you were brand new to the class and couldn't maintain banner longer than 30s, I guess it's possible you'd be more powerful as kyrian. but the answer there is just, like, learn the spec
south zealot
harder but generally similar
tender cove
yeh, thats what was my line of thought too harrow
south zealot
welcome to necrolord prot
lofty widget
honestly even 30s banners are better than kyrian
jovial kraken
it's like you're talking directly to me lol
lofty widget
at least in terms of rage gen
mighty valley
i mean we were generally playing kyrian or NF in previous patches, it's not terrible
jovial kraken
do you try to chain things like Last Stand, Demo Shout, and Ravager, or do you overlap them? Meaning, should I cast all of those in the initial LS window or should I wait 'til after?
lofty widget
you want as much rage gen during LS as possible
south zealot
rip my dinar for 2 more weeks
lofty widget
so if rav/demo is available you send it
lofty widget
but dont hold LS (assuming banner is up) to line everything up
mighty valley
yeah blow everything at once on pull, get that initial banner duration enormous
just mash IP to overcap as little as possible
(you're gonna overcap a bit in LS)
jovial kraken
am I also worrying about SB during that initial window or just IP to keep overcapping to a minimum?
mighty valley
keep SB up always
south zealot
shield block > ip
lofty widget
both
mighty valley
well, when you're taking melee
south zealot
in 99.9999% of situations
lofty widget
theyre both off gcd so you can press both as you need
since rage isnt an issue during ls
jovial kraken
got it...will work on that...thx for the help
mighty valley
yeah we have a lot of buttons to press on pull and you really gotta mash during LS
got SB, IP, Intervene all off GCD along with your normal rotation, another charge in the mix too
jovial kraken
yeah, i'm starting to understand all the talk about the pace of play now
sturdy sable
Pull is the only time youll feel that overwhelmed
jovial kraken
that is the perfect description for it
mighty valley
it just becomes second nature though
i go to any other spec now and i'm like "what do you mean i mostly only press things on the GCD"
jovial kraken
lol
I've never played prot before and just hit 60 yesterday, hence all the questions. I started putting time in on the dummy this morning to work towards 2min banners. Best I've done so far is 1m15s, but you guys have given me some things to work on so hopefully 2mins isn't too far off.
edgy grail
Make sure you watch the video
Also one thing I struggle with a bit is abusing reprisal
It’s a lot if rage
mighty valley
yeah you can't incorporate intervene on a training dummy sadly
unless you get a friend to afk
onyx vessel
doing sire i pressed banner on pull just before combat and my banner fell off
.2seconds into it
sick sentinel
echo of throwing amirite
mortal brook
just reset the boss at that point 👟
sick sentinel
they threw last night, threw again now, might again later
jovial kraken
Make sure you watch the video
Yep, I watched the video. Incredible to see 3min+ uptime. I need to work on my reprisal usage too.
onyx vessel
outta cb is the problem
only time it happens
press on 1 dies on pull
for no reason
banner falls off*
sick sentinel
is bear tank supposed to be using thrash leggo
mighty valley
yeah boss combat pulse wipes temp buffs
sick sentinel
trying to grab a guy for key
urban portal
yes they are
mighty valley
part of killing pre-potting
sick sentinel
i'll come here to post about notable tanks i encounter, mostly prot warriors, or to ask about tank relate stuff
and ask mage or related in their discord about that
mortal brook
sleeper and ursocs both good. ursocs much more chonky in most content, sleeper can pull ahead in dam by a small bit
sick sentinel
it was a 265 bear for a 10 with a thrash and unity 235 and 265
mortal brook
good enough for a 10
sick sentinel
we had a tank with just the wall legendary equipped in my +9 or +8 lower
onyx vessel
sick sentinel
only 2 wipes, 1 in horse room
mighty valley
word on what's good doesn't always get around, kyrian is still the most popular prot covenant
sick sentinel
actually this TW guy wasn't so goofy, he seemed to have his head on straight and a plan in mind
mighty valley
obviously don't need to be built anywhere close to optimal in a +9
sick sentinel
he knew about where to jump so we could go horse moroes
urban portal
genuinely think kyrian is bis for 9s
sick sentinel
or, it wasn't a standard route i had seen my self
jovial kraken
had a guildie drop reprisal for wall cuz he was struggling with the playstyle
sick sentinel
im not sure that i have TW 291 crafted but that might be an idea to look into
mighty valley
don't think i've equipped wall since 9.1
sick sentinel
2nd one ive come across in 2 days
ocean yoke
i used it for lords at least
waxen orbit
had a guildie drop reprisal for wall cuz he was struggling with the playstyle
We call that bad
sick sentinel
ec-throw
strong forum
echo is so far behind monka
Comes down to whoever can get more 32s
If monka can get the 32 lowr timed soon, then yes they're behind
If not, it's every bodies game
sick sentinel
yeah, we timed that key no problem, is a baby key
sick sentinel
pods is havin big trouble
sick sentinel
yeah well, monka destroying moroes trash currently, thats my vote
sinful plover
Why isn’t The Wall good in m+? With current rage spending + AM. High haste giving more SS procs. I feel like it’ll have shield wall up nearly every pull.
drifting fable
more shield block too
sinful plover
Also I want to keep using BSC but the extra rage from Demo shout is nice for banner up time
cinder jackal
How often are you having to charge to get use from it?
It’s one thing I still haven’t looked up on how to optimise
drifting fable
BSC vs BV is a comfort pick
sinful plover
Charge and intervene are used on CD 99% time
cinder jackal
But how you defining possible?
Keeping charge in CD when possible?
drifting fable
pretty much
cinder jackal
Thanks
sinful plover
Yup, leap out and charge back in. When u use shockwave use that second to back up and get a charge in
U see a mob outside the main pack charge to it
drifting fable
charge casters and simply just walk backwards
you have alot of move speed with banner
sinful plover
^^^
lofty widget
Why isn’t The Wall good in m+? With current rage spending + AM. High haste givin...
the difference in SW CD between wall and rep is max 30 seconds btw
which is almost never relevant
sinful plover
And you don’t need it every single pull so it’ll just be sitting on CD too
oblique garnet
Timed a 28 GD
mighty valley
you don't even need to be close to optimal for reprisal to outdo the wall
it's all gravy
cinder nova
How do I mollify whiny DPS like rogues who keep whimpering about waiting between pulls for energy and stealth.
Like, my guy, I gotta keep pulling just do your rotation ??
south zealot
prot warrior and bdk dont wait between pulls
so idk why they are having an issue
they just need to get used to it
sure it can kinda suck as a rogue if u cant start with stealth but who cares
cinder nova
Yeah that's basically what I told him and he still whined.
I just told him not to invite me next time, I cba to be letting banner fall every 2 pulls.
south zealot
fuck em
toxic pewter
lol wtf?
cinder nova
Tastes a little echo-chambery.
cinder nova
I mean he was 25 almost 2600 so he must know what's going on
But I think he runs with other tanks
south zealot
NOO
monka just wiped at 2%
think skylark just needed to tank the boss and ignore the plant
toxic pewter
machinist?
sick sentinel
How do I mollify whiny DPS like rogues who keep whimpering about waiting between...
stealth is important for rogues, but its like, his problem or something
100%+ true if your subtlety but lol shadowdance
i played old rogue very old rogue, not new rogue, im just not a fan of any of the 3 spec
cinder nova
He wasn't even sub, he was outlaw.
cinder nova
We timed and he was doing like 24K overall too
I was like ??? what even is the problem dude, press W if you're that pressed
mighty valley
yeah if you can't open from stealth as assassin you're kinda hosed
but it sounds like the outlaw was doing just fine
just think of it as one really long pull, my guy
sick sentinel
did the outlaw beat his dps?
mighty valley
whose?
sick sentinel
you said it sounds like the outlaw, and i think we were originally talking poison assassination rogue
mighty valley
no, there was no assassination rogue
was just saying that if this rogue was sin, their frustration might be more rational
waxen orbit
How do I mollify whiny DPS like rogues who keep whimpering about waiting between...
They need to learn to drop combat and stand far enough not to get roped into combat when you pull
Lots of rogues don’t know how to drop combat without Vanish
Either that or they just insist on charging in with the tank to ensure they don’t show up late on the meters
urban portal
you dont even need to stealth yeah
waxen orbit
Just tell your rogue to stand back and hold his fire so they can drop combat and if they somehow fuck that up, they’re just a lost cause
waxen orbit
@cinder nova Just @ing you to make sure you see it
waxen orbit
for outlaw
No it’s definitely a good DPS up for outlaw. That I won’t admonish rogues for
urban portal
is it? because you dont even ambush coming out of vanish anymore
i cant even imagine being that much of a dps up if thats the case
waxen orbit
I don’t know the specifics, I genuinely don’t know outlaw’s stealth opener. I just know the outlaws I play with say it’s a bonus and I’ll defer to their knowledge on that one
And they’re 2800-2900 so I trust their word on that
urban portal
oh wait theres a proc
yeah
you get 6 seconds of bones
hitting out of stealth
but you actualyl dont press ambush tho
waxen orbit
Sounds about right
urban portal
its opener and some other time
waxen orbit
I just remember my rogue would tell me it was for RTB uptime
Wish I was playing more rn but first year of college as an autist requires complete focus so I’m just sitting at a pathetic whimpering 2640 IO right now as I acclimate to university life and workload
cinder nova
Well, there's also a lot less dungeons in the rotation atm
8 compared to the 10 we've been used to
Which is like... another 650 io or more
cinder nova
They don't adjust the individual io scores to maintain a comparable score average across every season.
Which would be smart, but they don't.
So it's gonna be all over the fucking place depending on the numbers of dungeons in a season's rotation
oblique garnet
I just remember my rogue would tell me it was for RTB uptime
think you get extra rolls or something
cinder nova
Late living the namesake.
cinder nova
I've literally just pressed W in every ID I've done
waxen orbit
so like 3.1k last tier
I've got 24s and 23s rn so I think it's more like 3.4k last season but still not what I'd be at if I didn't have to adult
cinder nova
And this dude is the only rogue I've seen make a stink
waxen orbit
I'd be at 2.8k rn with my usual group if I didn't have to take a break 
hazy edge
I've got 24s and 23s rn so I think it's more like 3.4k last season but still not...
ye makes sense. Same thing's happened to me this season, but a bit more drastic. I'm not even 2k yet 
oblique garnet
I've got 24s and 23s rn so I think it's more like 3.4k last season but still not...
all 24s - 700 score from last season because 2x dungeons
no idea how high peoples score was last season
4k?
hazy edge
4.1k was the peak
cinder nova
The gigachads yeah
waxen orbit
And this dude is the only rogue I've seen make a stink
And yeah, honestly rogues who complain about that really need to just learn how to drop combat and stand at a distance
Yeah 4.1k was the highest
hazy edge
legit like 10 people had it
waxen orbit
Yea something or other
hazy edge
mmmm key spread is a bit more drastic this season than last
oblique garnet
Im only 2774 and im missing basically every tyra 24
hazy edge
35JY is a joke, but 32 Lower/GD/Docks is gunna wreck
hazy edge
so probably closer to 3.4 yeah
oblique garnet
yeah true
hazy edge
like to get a 35 JY you have to time a 34 of something not JY
oblique garnet
true
waxen orbit
Say it louder for the mfs in the back
oblique garnet
i like how people are lets try to 3 chest every JY they get
only to realize they cant actually do the next key after 
waxen orbit
Bro not my healer
Mf will 3 chest a 24 JY
Get a 27 Lower PRE-NERF MIND YOU
And go
"Yeah let's hit that shit"
At 3 am
oblique garnet
Yeah i mean why not
waxen orbit
I gave it a fair shot
oblique garnet
Its almost never healer that struggles when the key level goes up
waxen orbit
We actually got a lot farther than I'd anticipated for week 2
oblique garnet
Its the dps who dont realize they just need to use cds on cd
waxen orbit
Its almost never healer that struggles when the key level goes up
This season is the only season I've seen healers actually have semi-challenging mechanics
But Blizz nerfed most of them so 🤷♂️
oblique garnet
Nothing that doesnt oneshot is healable
waxen orbit
Yep but you got most healers who unironically will say shit like "I am essentially another DPS who occasionally tosses out heals if you can't dodge stuff"
I have heard that line and variations of it more times than I can count
strong forum
Get a 27 Lower PRE-NERF MIND YOU
That's how we got out 26lower
oblique garnet
Im fine if its restoshaman who actually does dps
strong forum
waxen orbit
That's how we got out 26lower
waxen orbit
Im fine if its restoshaman who actually does dps
Bro even then it's hysterical to me like
oblique garnet
But holypriests saying that and then doing 3k dps
waxen orbit
Healers really think they will haul the DPS for me or another cracked ass tank player
Like no just keep me up and I promise I will haul your weight
You could literally do 2k or less overall DPS as a healer for this entire expac below a +28
And still time
Healer dam does not matter if your tank just knows what they're doing
oblique garnet
Tbf we are kinda self suistaining atm
waxen orbit
We kind of are
We're a farcry from S2 where we were tongue-kissing the Reaper every time we got a fort Halls
oblique garnet
Idk you notice it in gd if your melee are bad you cant charge freely on overseers
waxen orbit
Nearly 2 chesting a 27 fort bolstered halls as prot warr in S3 with dogshit kicks felt great
Def a core memory for this expac
waxen orbit
Idk you notice it in gd if your melee are bad you cant charge freely on overseer...
Oh I've noticed it
I love surv hunters being somehow bad at melee positioning despite having an entire CD that lets them just play ranged for 30 seconds
oblique garnet
Ye
south zealot
dude the amount of times people hold cds for atleast a minute
because they “wanna save it for boss”
or some shit
cinder nova
God I hate pugging LK
south zealot
is the most disgusting shit ever
oblique garnet
Nah i was doing keys myself
south zealot
i’ve been watching
oblique garnet
Saw like maybe 20-30 minutes
Eh just for fun keys with couple of friends
Pugging randoms
sick sentinel
o shit, pods pulled up big boy pants
oblique garnet
Got down 28 gd which was nice
sick sentinel
when i left off pods was L bozo
south zealot
oblique garnet
I figured that the only counterplay to not being bdk is just play staircase one by one
You can atleast reset your stacks with bop or bubble
Ye
waxen orbit
I will cite what I said on Twitter
Hot take: These Lower Kara nerfs (With the exception of the removed fervent strike and percent change) are unneeded and feel like Blizzard just kneeling to players who refuse to learn the dungeon or improve based on the higher difficulty of it.
Most people just refuse to learn mechanics
Especially for Lower
👍
oblique garnet
Went dwarf for the sole reason and it doesnt even work for it
It was 5 am decision no counterplay
south zealot
lower before the nerfs was by far the hardest dungeon in the pool
south zealot
everything else needed to be made significantly harder
or the nerfs were valid merfs
waxen orbit
lower before the nerfs was by far the hardest dungeon in the pool
That was honestly what made it fun
south zealot
yes i love doing a 17 million boss fight with constant adds, aoe damage, and explosives
waxen orbit
I like having one dungeon in the pool significantly harder as an outlier
The added difficulty honestly made it more engaging
south zealot
just completey fucks over key pushing
you scrape through a 26 iron docks
and u get shafted with a pre nerf 27 lower
3 key levels higher than any other lower during that week
what are you gonna do
waxen orbit
Yeah but we've always had that one dungeon significantly more difficult than the others
In BFA it was Shrine
strong forum
Live keypushing should be like tgp
waxen orbit
In Legion it was Cathedral
south zealot
not like 6 levels
pre nerf lower is literally like 10 levels harder than jy
maybe even more
south zealot
Live keypushing should be like tgp
i agree actually
strong forum
Infinite tries, all keys
waxen orbit
pre nerf lower is literally like 10 levels harder than jy
Using JY as a point of comparison is not exactly an accurate gage of difficulty
waxen orbit
I wouldn't be opposed to a change like that
strong forum
Imagine raiding
waxen orbit
🤮
south zealot
waxen orbit
Imagine raiding
Oh wait you had more to that sentence
strong forum
That's how m+ is currently
south zealot
fail mythic shriek and youre back to heroic shriek
strong forum
🙂
waxen orbit
Wait that sounds kinda dope actually
south zealot
Using JY as a point of comparison is not exactly an accurate gage of difficulty
it was still numerous key levels lower than all the other dungeons
lower is still the hardest dungeon
south zealot
only dungeon close to difficulty is iron docks
south zealot
but you can also oneshot half the trash in id
waxen orbit
That and also, people do not want to go through the trouble of learning something more difficult when they could just ignore that key and get the IO from something simple like JY
south zealot
attumen trash is cursed asf
robust quiver
Infinite tries, all keys
problem is loot drops
south zealot
That and also, people do not want to go through the trouble of learning somethin...
there was no learning on pre nerf wikket
you lose
strong forum
problem is loot drops
Why would loot be an issue?
robust quiver
i also think casuals need to be pointed where to go
south zealot
id say some nerfs were overdone
robust quiver
no trolling
waxen orbit
id say some nerfs were overdone
^
south zealot
but some were justified
waxen orbit
I really do think they went overkill
south zealot
eh i still think its the hardest dungeon
robust quiver
having complete freedom of choise is a curse for some people
south zealot
but its in a fone level of difficulty
robust quiver
i still agree that for key pushing the tgp solution is the best
waxen orbit
Also can we stop this trend every expac of Blizz forcing M+er's and PVPer's to raid to be optimal?
robust quiver
but how many people push keys? probably less than 5% of the total player base
waxen orbit
Please and fucking thank you
waxen orbit
but how many people push keys? probably less than 5% of the total player base
Dangerous way to look at content in this game
waxen orbit
Most people who play this game do not actually push content
robust quiver
Dangerous way to look at content in this game
i mean you have to develop content for the majority of players
south zealot
but if its a huge gap thats where i dont like jt
robust quiver
blizzard is a company afterall
waxen orbit
i mean you have to develop content for the majority of players
But if the majority of players will not even notice changes to a dungeon or raid because they don't step foot inside of them, that's straight up just bad design
robust quiver
it's the reason the game catered more and more towards casuals, it's the bulk of the money
waxen orbit
if its like 3-5% better, making players raid is fine
Full 311 is def more than 3-5% better
south zealot
that doesnt change what i said
also full 311 doesnt happen besides this tier
you have like 4-6 pieces of 311
waxen orbit
But we're talking about this tier right?
south zealot
which might have awful stats to where its worth (rings haste)
robust quiver
and tbh this may be controversial, but raids are the best content wow chugs out
south zealot
this tier isnt even remotely similar to any tier before
i doubt blizzard was thinking
robust quiver
i can see why the want to incentivise it strongly, considering gearing through m+ is already easier (considering 5 people vs 20)
south zealot
"man lets make all these m+ gamers raid for 311 gear"
waxen orbit
i doubt blizzard was thinking
Bold to assume they think about M+er's
robust quiver
"man lets make all these m+ gamers raid for 311 gear"
Moreso, isn't it easier too to target specific mythic raid gear this season too?
waxen orbit
and tbh this may be controversial, but raids are the best content wow chugs out
They're the most developed. I don't raid as much anymore because the times most guilds have overlap with shit I do IRL, and also tank spots are hard to find no matter how cracked you are. Also, a lot of raidlogger mains are really cringe and don't really understand how the game works which creates a huge clash of identity and personality when you have someone who does and is very passionate about it
south zealot
Bold to assume they think about M+er's
kind of a dumb thing to say ngl
waxen orbit
kind of a dumb thing to say ngl
I'm partially shitposting when I say that
We def get a lot of attention from Blizz
waxen orbit
I just seriously wish they'd offer 311 gear this patch to M+er's because high keys are legit more difficult than mythic raid
south zealot
didnt ions interview with max address that
waxen orbit
Sucks to see my homies who are still playing a shitload stuck at 304 this entire season despite pushing 2900-3k because they just do not like raid content
south zealot
im pretty sure he said something like "we know people like pushing high keys and they are very very hard and we want to reward players for that"
robust quiver
I just seriously wish they'd offer 311 gear this patch to M+er's because high ke...
it's difficult to define difficulty, considering raiding requires organizing 20 people that can actually raid mythic
waxen orbit
im pretty sure he said something like "we know people like pushing high keys and...
Yeah but that's Ion, he probably thinks 304 is an apt reward for that
waxen orbit
it's difficult to define difficulty, considering raiding requires organizing 20 ...
I could train a group of 20 test chimpanzees from my local zoo to clear the first half of any of these raids this expac
robust quiver
i mean what i fear is that if there's a world where raid gear is subpar to m+ gear the top raiding scene could die
south zealot
the hardest part about mythic raiding is getting 20 people to be consistent with showing up
waxen orbit
^
fallow narwhal
if the only reason people are raiding is for gear, does that make it good?
robust quiver
the hardest part about mythic raiding is getting 20 people to be consistent with...
this
robust quiver
if the only reason people are raiding is for gear, does that make it good?
idk, people in wow are obsessed with gear
waxen orbit
if the only reason people are raiding is for gear, does that make it good?
That's more of a philosophical question that's been posed to WoW since 2004 my man
And the MMO genre as a whole
south zealot
90% of mmo players LOVE gear
waxen orbit
I mean you play to increase your character's power
south zealot
and the 10% that dont are doing other stuff like farming the AH and achievements and shit
south zealot
yeah it makes sense, its the whole purpose of an MMO
waxen orbit
They are, at their core, built around gear and min-maxing
robust quiver
They are, at their core, built around gear and min-maxing
idk about min-maxing, but loot for sure
waxen orbit
No, min-maxing for sure
robust quiver
i mean it's a core element of RPGs in general, you go into a dungeon to get the dragon's gold
waxen orbit
You are maximizing your power potential
People just have the wrong idea about what min-maxing is because r/wow screeches about how it ruined the game
south zealot
sadge
waxen orbit
See if they had me in there that would be three chested
I'm just built like that man
south zealot
yeah it was great
i think its fine
theres a skill in doing 24s 25s and 26s really fast
those are mostly 20s-22s tho
bc teams typically ban the higher level keys
ok i checked s3 and s2 mdis and u were closer
its mostly 22-24
id be fine if they started 26/27/28 at the most
bc watching them to super high level keys is nice
BUT its not nice if youre watching it 12 hours
i think theres too many 'free keys' but its better than basically only push keys
yeah eu was really good
na was solid
prenerf lower kinda fucked na a lil
LMAO
naowh is hella funny
aster is always cracked
monka aster echo ambition
are gonna be the 4 main teams to watch imo
oblique garnet
Gigachads from left field
south zealot
is skyline still a team
or did they disband
i remember hearing some drama about their guild
oblique garnet
They disbanded
south zealot
24 yard kekw
they were just like
aight lets time a key boys
hmm that was really easy guys
ig were just first
is himelody in any of the teams
himelody was a fucking gamer bro
u cant read mandarin?
noob
neither can i
any chatters
oblique garnet
Almost like eu just most competetive region
waxen orbit
Ignore Pain/Revenge hold inc
EU has more competitive teams
Doesn’t make every other region bad
south zealot
man i cant wait for bfa classic
waxen orbit
Kill it with fire
south zealot
im only partially joking
oblique garnet
Bfa classic but its only bfa s4
south zealot
i was complete turbo ass in bfa
so id genuinely want to play bfa s4
i remember depleting a 10 shrine as prot
i never played prot again during bfa
oblique garnet
Id just actually get vers amps see how high i couldve pushed instead of being memelord and doing like 25s with full td and leech
oblique garnet
Yesterday almost made me reroll bdk
oblique garnet
Staircase gd
south zealot
i removed my dinar quest on accident
oblique garnet
And couple of high keys where trash just lasts forever
sick sentinel
i played the shit out of BFA
south zealot
for legit 10 mins
sick sentinel
so, i have alot of what it has to offer
oblique garnet
I did that from 14% on 25
south zealot
🤓 its actually every other global bc thye need to generate runic power kekw
oblique garnet
Not to mention the fact that they parry 90% of the shit
south zealot
those adds do legit nothing
like on a 24 upper i did the adds were doing 10k damage a hit without shield block up
so with first avenger its probbaly better to have those adds up
oblique garnet
Yeah bdk doesnt care if you are there or not
south zealot
a good blood dk wont die unless they get completely fucked on rng
oblique garnet
As healer
south zealot
and dont parry like 10 hits in a row
did u see the pull where naowh was doing 40k hps and healer was doing 3k hps
sick sentinel
so many angels, and angels is a sign of death lotta peopl
south zealot
i wish there was more low consistently aoe damage
sick sentinel
usually what happens when priest dies too
south zealot
rather than casts that oneshot you
south zealot
low as in like 10% every couple seconds on 20+
LMAO i was doing a normal pug on my dk yesterday i was sustaining the last 10% of inerva
i ended up dying bc i fucked up but i felt so op
hazy edge
The dot ticked 181k btw
I had 250k ticks
oblique garnet
I dont want to go to the dark side man
hazy edge
That wasn’t fun lol
oblique garnet
Dont make me do it
south zealot
blood next xpac looks like itll go back to actual skill class
rather than hitting as many heart strikes as possible
oblique garnet
🙏 dw ive only ever brought my dk for 2 bosses
Yeah i dont think im gonna do rank 1 keys where i pug majority of the time
south zealot
im struggling to get into higher pugs
have to play red or socially interract with people
south zealot
ive only had ppl ask on medihv
and everyones just like nah we'll be fine
pink tank kekw
south zealot
im just about 2700 and i dont get taken into 24 grimrail or uppers kekw
all the prot 
s are pushing super high
ive fallen to top 50
no more top 20 sadge
oblique garnet
Now the real question is do i go to pc and pug more keys or watch more dota dragons blood
toxic pewter
hey late- dont you use soleah and ows iirc
oblique garnet
hey late- dont you use soleah and ows iirc
Yeah most of the times
toxic pewter
Do you recommend that perhaps? I have both and thinking of just using it for the stats
I think im gonna start doing using both
oblique garnet
I only switched to cheat death trinket in 26 keys and 25 lower for safety
Dont have rdm
toxic pewter
Ok ya i have aegis i have and all, but think i would rather just be faster.. only doing like 23's atm
oblique garnet
Ows ye
toxic pewter
do you plan to ows and rdm
oblique garnet
Probably
toxic pewter
yah i am doing that too
oblique garnet
No
I just go kill w/e easy bosses log off from raid
Havent watched anything from df
Only some talent trees
limpid pawn
2 questions about mechanics
flame wreath - is this applied to a few targets or everyone?
(i just never move when it is cast but i wanna know specifics)
so everyone but those 2 can move, an i assume its the visual with the flame circle on the ground
k, and shared suffering from attunmen
how does that work exactly
so ive kited it successfully before delaying the cast but its not easy
after he does the attack, i see this black circle on the ground
is it a frontal cone?
so, people have to stack on me? around attunmen?
like where do they have to be exactly
the black circle afterwards - this is something you have to immediately run out of?
ok. that clears it up -thank you very much
i think they are like the nastiest new mechanics
chrome falcon
shared suffering is around attumen, not around the tank
oh
yeah when you said you can be behind him and still be close enough
t
that confused me
my 25 workshop turned into 26 ID
what is EU junkyard route this week
🤔
dawn canyon
gunk > triy > gobb
pathing i mean
chrome falcon
aren't you na phil
dawn canyon
no
solid holly
I know lots of people wouldnt like the idea - but for certain fortified dungeons (in the 25-27 key range) would dropping OWS for cheat death be the right choice? I was doing a 26 lower recently and having that extra safety over the haste seemed to have been the right choice, especially if the timer isnt tight. Banner upkeep with current gear levels isnt an issue even without the extra haste and preventing a wipe might just add more value to the team.
dawn canyon
tbf my huntsman is fuckin bussin rest no comment
cheat deaths are generally crutches
- it didnt proc > dam loss over better trinker
chrome falcon
you can wear cheat death anywhere you're scared
but you shouldn't be proccing it at that key level
but if you are then fuck it just wear it if it makes you comfy
dawn canyon
1) it didnt proc > dam loss over better trinker
2)does proc, but you played bad > play better
- does proc, on purpose > ur doing bleeding edge content
thats the scenarios
solid holly
Well yeah everyone makes mistakes no one ever plays perfect, often times you dying isnt something that you could have prevented, id rather play "scared" and take the dps loss and give my team and myself more room for error. Especially in higher but not cutting edge keys
chrome falcon
if you're dying and cheat death makes you not die then go for it
oblique garnet
what is EU junkyard route this week
Same as bfa
chrome falcon
but also examine why you died and how you can stop it so you can wear big pumper trinkies
however i wouldn't drop OWS for it
like imo you go OWS/RDM on easy stuff
OWS/aegis on scary stuff
maybe cheat death/aegis on disgusting giga keys?
oblique garnet
Its nice it allows you to have momentary lapse in your play in higher keys
solid holly
was mainly thinking of higher lower kara keys, easy to miss a kick with so much going on but timer is free, if you dont wipe your gonna time it
oblique garnet
Lower kara doesnt have that much kicks now that you dont play most of the hard trash
But yeah i agree its nice save when you dont sidestep charge or miss a kick
solid holly
tornadoes and horses are super shit to play for example, procced there after getting hit by a charge.
prob have to adjust route in some capacity, kinda liked the one echo did in TGP
solid holly
yeah on the route we did we killed the majority of the trash coming up the stairs from moroes then big pulling the mobs out the corridor, hallway was done in 2 pulls, was prob the msot time efficient pulls in the whole dungeon
oblique garnet
The upper stables trash megafree
solid holly
you mean the kitchen trash?
oblique garnet
No
solid holly
Never really considered that one
oblique garnet
bro the fucking dog in kitchen
Ya the hound is scary
solid holly
that would make it even better, considering that even if a someone died you wouldnt need to br
south zealot
meant to do this
but i pulled yellow and the hound pack at once
so i got fucked
oblique garnet
I just pulled them out we still had warden left and we used that to kill those
Shame it wasnt timed because of a first boss wipe
south zealot
i was coming from upstairs of stables so we didnt have that
last pebble
so like how big of a difference is necro vs kyrian? Like can i still do 25's as kyrian
agile pumice
i guess you can
oblique garnet
Ye hes playing spear to get blasters stacked
oblique garnet
Think because cn runs are only from logs it takes w/e their character is wearing at the time
But kyrian spear for blasters would be valid
dawn canyon
also tbh
agile pumice
yeah i was starting to suspect some tomfoolery was going on here
oblique garnet
Not worth the defensive loss tho
sick sentinel
i figure my problem with wow is probably same on mage as i had on warrior
dawn canyon
wo
agile pumice
aight this guy is on us tho
sick sentinel
i can't really speak to frost, only played it once, but the issue seems to be, i don't hit the CDs
agile pumice
and playing the wall
dawn canyon
asked
sick sentinel
or, rather to re-phrase, i hit cd's at the wrong time as in too late
this is re-occuring issue not just protection warrior
dawn canyon
playing pvp helped me press defensives pre-emptively 
sick sentinel
pvp is african + chinese x taiwan langauge to me
chrome falcon
so like how big of a difference is necro vs kyrian? Like can i still do 25's as ...
imo playing kyrian above 20 is trolling
dawn canyon
but thats just me
sick sentinel
i did get a mage staff to make me more smarter
it didnt work, i still have low dps
its also bad , but no valor OH
chrome falcon
sacrificing a huge amount of armour and rage generation
is going to make you so so squishy
i tried kyrian in a 20 a while ago and i felt like paper compared to necro
naive hatch
What enchant do we want friends
sick sentinel
stats
sick sentinel
answer stays same unless someone wants to interject
there is one thats 5% main stat on attacks
south zealot
celestial guidance
sick sentinel
yep
mighty valley
you're like, allowed to play kyrian in whatever keys you want, you're not gonna get arrested
but it's worse at all levels
sick sentinel
if your not doing a 15+ who gives a shit as long as you are at least TRYING to get set and legendaries
sometimes have to kick people out they come with 1 bad legendary 0 set, so alt f4 out so i can restart later
its like, low gear, one legendary, no unity or its 265 quest belt sure, but is a threshhold
icy garden
hm
sick sentinel
uninstall pawn, but ye, thats a fantastic ring
queen hemlock
Use it till you get a better ring/start farming mechagon
sick sentinel
just a good ring overall
low kindle
wtf Mortal Strike on Atttumen is magical damage, no wonder I was getting clapped by that
delicate kraken
oblique garnet
pvp teaches u nicely since u fucking die if u parry after the wings
Disarm into palabubble into parry
limpid pawn
so regarding the wall
people using this on high keys medivh?
or like the entire upper key
shut summit
I port out after medivh and swap to wall for wyrm
shut summit
Nah stay wall for rest of it
limpid pawn
ok, there aren't issues regarding SB uptime?
shut summit
Wyrm feels awful
limpid pawn
like what is the style of play for the rest of the dungeon using wall?
I imagine that shield wall comes back real frequently with the banner up
but what is the down-time actually like?
shut summit
There isn't anything that matters really after wyrm for block
limpid pawn
oh, like theres' a couple packs of small wyrms, and the chess event right
oblique garnet
Wyrm feels awful
Did you reset at all
chrome falcon
you don't need reprisal for 100% blocked hits on last boss
and if small wyrms melee you without block up
you're fine
they hit so fast that youi'll naturally get some blocks from mastery
lusty tiger
+16 lower timed lol
vernal vale
I got my recursion ring. Now to farm Valor to cap it out
mighty valley
I still need the JY ring............
burned all my luck getting the workshop ring week 1
urban bane
i finally got recursion today. i added up the time i spent in jy farming it, it was over 24 hours
vernal vale
I still need the JY ring............
I decided that it was time to farm it after having my workshop ring in my first vault
coral marsh
Guys I can't decide. 304 helm for tier, mecha shield with avoidance or huntsman neck with socket?
Is the shield still considered trash and how valuable is the damage passive of the huntsman neck?
mighty valley
afaik the huntsman neck proc is basically nothing if it's the item I'm thinking of
the shield is worse than any other equal ilvl shield but a shield's a shield
icy garden
uninstall pawn, but ye, thats a fantastic ring
idk why i still have it tbh, but yeah im happy. i just hit 60 last night
mighty valley
the helm will be close to bis but replaceable by any other 304 helm
i'd probably take shield if it's a massive ilvl upgrade, otherwise helm
coral marsh
Is the socket proc on neck valuable? Is there still a way to put sockets on gear with stygia or sth?
mighty valley
you can buy sockets from the vault tokens when you don't take anything else
I actually don't remember if the huntsman neck loses any secondary stats in exchange for the proc, I guess compare against a similar neck
crit mastery isn't the most exciting stat spread though
mighty valley
attumen
lusty grotto
ionic fern
brittle owl
wakey wakey
slender quest
Mh is the mecha Ring combo bis for prot?
vernal vale
Mh is the mecha Ring combo bis for prot?
You want haste 3 abilities rings
For combo
It's basically 100% uptime on 6 sockets worth of haste. Which is very good.
slender quest
Okay thx becouse i saw many prots with the lower kara high versa ring
ionic fern
@last pebble yes, you can still do 25's as Kyrian/NF (heck, even Venthyr) but a properly played NL is just in a league of its own.
south zealot
what addon is that
blazing condor
What a name
south zealot
wintry nymph
uncut dome
lament shell
can get 2 dianars next week right ?
strong forum
Si
lament shell
gamign
echo egret
2x Shared suffering at 15s intervals, I didn't know that was possible
coral marsh
is it possible to stack the healer packs in gambit?
or will the healing always win then?
sand pebble
anyone noticed the overload shield absorb doesnt proc when spell reflect is used?
i was trying to work out why my guild pally tank has double the procs/healing from it than me in keys
mellow bridge
For dps sim as always
dusky sentinel
Are u guys using TC like crazy in lower for crazy dmg or what? Saw a warrior do like 5-6 million dmg with TC alone and I literally went Whaaaaa
mellow bridge
For general use, definitively yes
sand pebble
Are u guys using TC like crazy in lower for crazy dmg or what? Saw a warrior do ...
yeah there is a meme spec that you use outburst on empowered tc
does insane damage in low keys
tardy sequoia
For general use, definitively yes
yes i mean tanking in raid/keys