It's a fast 304 tho
#protection
dawn canyon
tame jasper
m+ shiled 304 day 1 😄
strong forum
Which is exactly why you don't buy it
lofty widget
well if youre clearing heroic just see what you got by the time you get your dinar
urban portal
^
lofty widget
if you already have ows dont buy it
strong forum
Can't get a 304 m+ shield day 1
urban portal
literally dont think too hard
prisma crane
hell yea
lofty widget
i get it now
urban portal
buy based on your drops
tame jasper
Can't get a 304 m+ shield day 1
why, no valor cap
tame jasper
ah damn yeah the score
strong forum
Which is all 24s if yiu wanna do it day1
cursive bridge
304 is vault
lofty widget
ez nuf
cursive bridge
so first vault sure
inland wasp
deffense matrix looking to be good in S4? i didnt really look into it this season
tame jasper
I liked it S2
sick sentinel
negative 20% scale
sick sentinel
still mad
inland wasp
i mean i was looking at somthing to replace Scale as its not upgradable S4, was thinking Taz trink but might look into Matrix as well
cinder nova
Pretty sure matrix beats out pretty much every other dps trink under ows
strong forum
If you're actively tanking, yes
inland wasp
perfect lol i dont like having a BiS Trinket in M+ rather have it from raid
strong forum
Scale wasn't bis since s1, but yes
cinder nova
Scale is good for big claps like sod guardian slams
hollow kayak
Scale for me is a security blanket and a good "oh shit" button. I know it's suboptimal, but I still like it.
sick sentinel
scale is bis, from dungeon drops
primal mauve
where do u guys look instead of subcreaion, i noticed the codex thing too
sick sentinel
or very close to
jagged pier
scale is bis, from dungeon drops
no
sick sentinel
but thats only dungeon
dawn canyon
where do u guys look instead of subcreaion, i noticed the codex thing too
I usually trust the yellows here
lofty widget
its far from bis lol
strong forum
where do u guys look instead of subcreaion, i noticed the codex thing too
i dont look anywhere
strong forum
im honorary yellow
primal mauve
xD
sick sentinel
its the best trinket item you can get from only dungeons
dawn canyon
Not anymore
strong forum
scale was good yes, but ive just grown jaded against it
too much hype around a trinket
inland wasp
never got a OWS in S2 so ive been using scale S3 with Agis but with getting OWS and anything else i kinda like that idea
urban portal
its a pleasant surprise from vault good
strong forum
nothing is 20 of dungeon a week good
urban portal
IQD is on some DPS
primal mauve
oranges cmyk value is 100% yellow
strong forum
i skipped 278 scale in my vault
lofty widget
only def trinket id use is aegis
jagged pier
100% in top 3
nope,. its worse than phial, opc, afe, soleach, theres probably more im forgetting
lofty widget
and even that is overkill i feel
strong forum
yeah
strong forum
pushers like chimmi and sense are reaching the consensus that defensive trinkets like aegis arent actually that useful anymore
or well "overkill"
inland wasp
seems to be the norm late in expansions, Def trinks go away DPS trinks come in
lofty widget
its still good, just cant justify bringing something i'd maybe get 5 good uses out of over a dungeon
jagged pier
pushers like chimmi and sense are reaching the consensus that defensive trinkets...
well yer cause sigils bis :kappa:
cobalt seal
nope,. its worse than phial, opc, afe, soleach, theres probably more im forgetti...
what the goalpost be changed to top 3 for tanks
urban portal
if you arent pulling huge
strong forum
its still good, just cant justify bringing something i'd maybe get 5 good uses o...
thats how i feel with basically every defensive trinket that doesnt do good dmg
urban portal
aegis is actually not that much HPS
urban portal
when i can bring a DPS trinket and have consistent power throughout the run
lofty widget
now we get rdm tho 
strong forum
🙏
lofty widget
never had it drop in s2
strong forum
i have a 239 one
it still does 400dps/hps
at fucking 239
thats as much dmg as a 278 phial does
lofty widget
thats more than my 272 phial
cinder nova
How much DPS is matrix on fights where there are moments you're waiting to swap like SoD 9
sick sentinel
i have all the trinkets ill ever want
urban portal
so downtime doesnt affect it as much
if you arent tanking for like 10 seconds its not a big deal
itll just proc more often later on
topaz field
thats a big hopium
sick sentinel
it got nerfed too i heard
topaz field
oh god why am i getting the feeling u will see tons of prot war fotm rerollers
with 40 % sb uptime
lofty widget
well let them
topaz field
H3AL M3
lofty widget
figure out its harder than expected and roll back
vestal moat
The ip buff is awesome but still miss the utility of other tanks.
topaz field
ye sure
urban portal
utility doesnt matter
strong forum
oh god why am i getting the feeling u will see tons of prot war fotm rerollers
thats exactly whats gonna happen
topaz field
i dont know where ppl get the idea that prot has no utility
with shockwave fear and a shout
plus 20 % dr
for a teammate
strong forum
naowh is correct in saying that pwar is #2 in power, but alot of the attention its now getting will be the downfall of many fotm rollers
topaz field
on a 30 sec cd
strong forum
you gotta put in serious work to play it to a #2 level
dawn canyon
Reroll proof tank PogU
vestal moat
Prot has utility. Other tanks just have more and better.
strong forum
pmuch
cobalt seal
naowh is correct in saying that pwar is #2 in power, but alot of the attention i...
fotm shouldn't reroll pwar
including a certain tank
lofty widget
fotm reroll to 2nd best tank :I
dawn canyon
They will and will get fucked HARD
cobalt seal
that I want to reroll
dawn canyon
strong forum
Prot has utility. Other tanks just have more and better.
i dont see other tanks having a party wide buff, 5% atk power buff, aoe stun on short CD, aoe fear, and 20% external on 30sec cd?
urban portal
again
who cares about util
no one cared about warlock util
until s3
no one cared about mass grip
lofty widget
their util is dmg
urban portal
until s3
strong forum
the utility argument is bullshit
topaz field
wl has a shit ton of utility
strong forum
people pretending theres a bigger meaning behind it
dawn canyon
Damage > util
lofty widget
wl has a shit ton of utility
thats not why theyre meta
urban portal
s2 warlock was so awful in keys
topaz field
ofc not
urban portal
but their util has been the same
im saying a place in meta has no relation to your util
topaz field
every meta class is the meta class because it does the most dmg
strong forum
whatever is considered meta always gets the "yeah but their utility"
fuck outta here
urban portal
its your damage and survival
cobalt seal
Damage > util
rogue
mighty cairn
99% of players arent good enough to use utility anyway so it doesnt matter
strong forum
where is the VDH OP utility of s1?
strong forum
where did it go?
people claimed VDH had OP utility in s1
then people claimed bear utility was good
vestal moat
VDH had very good kiting utility which was no longer needed when they nerfed the dungeons.
lofty widget
for tanks it just comes down to: is their dmg good, and can they live the big pulls dps need to blast
strong forum
then people claimed pally utility is what made them so good in s2
now its bdk utility im guessing?
topaz field
xD
urban portal
mass grip was so bad in S1
but the dungeon changes
made them so good in S3
amirite
topaz field
bdk is the best tank for one reason because he needs zero healing attention
thats why bear was so good season 2
urban portal
the only 2 metrics of tanks
survival and damage
damage>survival
in great push maybe survival>damage
cobalt seal
thats why bear was so good season 2
cobalt seal
1.5k
strong forum
hard to judge
bit higher than pwar? idk
bdks get alot of their own healing sniped
cobalt seal
about equal to pwar
strong forum
so it doesnt rly work for them
lofty widget
thats fair
urban portal
warrior has unsnipable "healing"
lofty widget
i just feel the "they dont need healing" argument is kinda lazy
cinder nova
Nom
cobalt seal
bear needed way more than hots in s2
urban portal
at least not in logs
urban portal
nom are you logged into wow rn
static aspen
vestal moat
Any news on the cap yet
brisk sparrow
wait I thought it was betterer?!
urban portal
Any news on the cap yet
30% max hp
vestal moat
Source ?
vestal moat
Oh I missed it there was a blue ?
strong forum
it was known less than 1hr after the first post
hollow kayak
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/world-of-warcraft/23833173/shadowlands-season-4-content-update-notes
vestal moat
Ty ty Ty
cinder nova
30% gooder
Show me the math, I was doing some napkin math and it looked like a pretty meager buff tbh
urban portal
noom whats your per cast IP with banner up
topaz field
usually 30 % is 30%
cinder nova
Yeah, but they're also fundamentally altering cap, Bart.
urban portal
or equal
strong forum
Show me the math, I was doing some napkin math and it looked like a pretty meage...
my current IP cap is 28k with banner up at 120k hp
post patch itll be 36k cap at 120k hp
urban portal
what about when you have banner up
light quartz
31k with banner at 114k hp xD
vestal moat
So just about 30% higherncap
strong forum
cuz you have high vers/mastery gear magnosh
urban portal
because banner increases str/mastery but doesnt increase HP
strong forum
or youre cheating with other buffs
urban portal
so the cap when you have banner up is reduced
vernal vale
you gotta put in serious work to play it to a #2 level
I was being asked about prot by some old friends that returned to the game and just listening to me explain what it took to play well decided not to play it.
cinder nova
I'm Vers stacked, but that's because it's easier for me to think less about magic nukes with vers
light quartz
yeah think i had 35 mastery and 13 versa or something
cinder nova
I mean, the bigger the nuke the more DR it is. Chip damage is hardly our problem, spikes are. ITF gives you enough haste to really give a fuck and it's not like I'm not already parsing.
It's also kind of incidental, so I just leaned into it.
And I do PVP moonlighting
So it's a lot of things that give it extra value without me having to swap shit
vernal vale
I wound up with a lot of mastery just based on the gear I got this season with 37% haste still.
vernal vale
Just the way it wound up being.
strong forum
aslong as you have haste and ilvl youre tanky enough
cinder nova
Yeah, but if someone gave me the choice I'd be Haste and Vers weighted with probably vers enchants/sockets
vernal vale
Vers DR happens incredibly quick too though.
cinder nova
Just because it makes life in multiple vectors easier and I haven't hit a wall competitively where I'm seeing any major change. If anything, this tier has been my best tier on paper.
light quartz
is there a world we aim for Haste Crit builds?
cinder nova
Yes, this one.
strong forum
thats what i do magnosh
lofty widget
haste: very high, crit: high: vers+mastery: low
urban portal
Vers DR happens incredibly quick too though.
its at 1200
strong forum
urban portal
its happens the latest
urban portal
haste drs at 990 or something
hollow kayak
Reading about percentile math is difficult, check me? So IP will now absorb 71.5% (30% increase over 55%), or 85% of damage done, up to 30% of your max health?
vernal vale
its happens the latest
Maybe it's just my gear then I feel like I get so little value from it.
cinder nova
Wanna see Nom lose his lunch:?
urban portal
Reading about percentile math is difficult, check me? So IP will now absorb 71.5...
if your DR is 10K on tooltip right now, itll be 13K after patch
cinder nova
urban portal
and the cap at which you can stack IP goes from 2x IP tooltip, to 30% max hp
urban portal
chad
lofty widget
maybe bit low leech 
dawn canyon
Sub 7% leechers out
strong forum
Reading about percentile math is difficult, check me? So IP will now absorb 71.5...
itll remaint 55% absorb, itll go from 10k absorb per cast to 13k per cast, cap will be 30% of your max hp, so in the event of 120k hp itll be 36k cap
topaz field
keep that closely in mind when u press ip 9 times during ls!
vernal vale
Realistically ignore pain change did nothing for the way we play.
strong forum
so youll have more IP to absorb bigger hits
it very much does smth
the cast-per-cast basis increased by 30%
that is HUGE
vernal vale
It's a rage dump still but maybe stack it to help with some big hits now.
vernal vale
Oh it's huge for it being better.
dawn canyon
Revert to 40 cowards
vernal vale
Just we are gonna still be dumping rage into it like crazy still.
lofty widget
Revert to 40 cowards
make it 20-60 😦
vernal vale
but nothing rotationally changed
That's what I mean by it really didn't change our play.
urban portal
its not like "we pool rage to mitigate this bolt with ip"
vernal vale
Yup
I'm happy to see it but I don't think it's going to bring in a ton of new tanks. Still have to play the spec well to do good.
lofty widget
its gonna bring in new players cause the big boys are talking about pwar more
vernal vale
It will be more forgiving I guess for players who never do high keys
vernal vale
its gonna bring in new players cause the big boys are talking about pwar more
They will all stop when they fail to play well and don't preform well though.... then again the number of MDI wannabe DKs out there is huge.
lofty widget
i've no clue if this is true or not, but i feel that bad players feel more tanky if someone told them its a good tank
so ppl might stick around even though theyre shit at pwar
urban portal
but bear was genuienly easy to play tho
VDH wasnt that easy
i think blood isnt easy either after you reach a certain poit
vernal vale
Mastering blood is actually hard.
vernal vale
Remember part of the VDH kit is to run away
sick sentinel
did i hear correctly you can mail gold BOA now?
sick sentinel
i dunno i thought i hear that was a thing that was coming
wind locust
is the prot buff noticable or it's gonna still be meh in survivability?
median tulip
Remember part of the VDH kit is to run away
You mean "run away from the healer"
lofty widget
the AH is opening cross-realm for commodities like potions, flasks, stackable items in general
if thats what you read
sick sentinel
is the prot buff noticable or it's gonna still be meh in survivability?
my guess is it will be more or less the same, but it might be pog with last stand
lofty widget
is the prot buff noticable or it's gonna still be meh in survivability?
prot already very strong, now IP is 30 % bigger
just makes our dmg intake overall smoother
median tulip
is the prot buff noticable or it's gonna still be meh in survivability?
The IP is good, but it doesn't make playing Prot any easier; if you're bad, you will still be bad
sick sentinel
i dunno how i will handle it but i have a faction/server change and 60 boost ready to go
wind locust
yeah prot warr is the only tank i havent played this expac thinking to pick it up
lofty widget
sure if you think it looks fun
skill floor is a lot higher than other tanks tho, and so is the skill ceiling
but once you get the hang of it its very fun/rewarding imo
wind locust
I never played tanks that need healer attention
so i might struggle on that part
DH/DK main
lofty widget
we dont really either
cinder storm
We dont really need healers attention
cinder storm
Just when something goes wrong or there is a spike
wind locust
do u guys ever click revenge outside of proc? for rage dumb?
lofty widget
yup
wind locust
or just ignore pain?
cinder storm
Your lowest prio will be TC
lofty widget
ignore pain is ONLY for rage dump when youre overcapping rage, or when taking high amounts of unblockable dmg
cinder storm
Ravager and Revenge are enough to grab aggro
vernal vale
Hit that revenge like it's going out of style.
cinder storm
When your fingers hurt, that's when you are on your way to the true path of pwar
vernal vale
That being said if your not hitting enough SS and the like to generate enough rage to IP a lot as well the you won't maintain banner.
lofty widget
ignore pain is ONLY for rage dump when youre overcapping rage, or when taking hi...
your casts should look something like this
regarding revenge/tc/ss
wind locust
so u keep ts,ss on cd and spam revenge and ignore pain for survivability
thats the idea i had on my own makes sense
lofty widget
pmuch, prio it's more like SS>>>TC tho
grave crane
you want to have SB up and keep a high amount blocked hits. thats our main mitigation as well. get reprisal, intervene and charge weave
grave crane
i try to press it more than not but make sure not to use outburst on it
urban portal
cinder storm
yeah, its the skill when you are furiously pressing and everything else is on cd and you remember you had it on your 1 during bfa
lofty widget
yah press it when you can, aka when literally nothing else is available
vernal vale
Raging explosives week
Spent a bit of time running from enraged loyal beast boosted dogs
Pugs don't know how to stun.
odd tree
I never played tanks that need healer attention
i capped out at 20s in s3. the necro druid i ran with would just hit me with adaptive swarm and then dps, not much attention needed.
wind locust
thats nice to here lone not as bad as ithought then
Im just used on the braindead playstyle of stand in anything and heal it with deathstrike
so i might struggle as a prot warr haha
cinder storm
From my experience, as a bad bdk doing 25s, the healing taken difference is roughly 5%. Like on some keys I can go 10%-16% and on my pwar would be 20%-25%
lofty widget
it also highly depends onthe dungeon
cinder storm
It's not a huge difference imo, but I m bad with dk
cinder storm
it also highly depends onthe dungeon
For sure
odd tree
yea, i got a bdk as well. super smooth brain except when you let drw drop cause you were on autopilot half the dungeon
cinder storm
One big difference you might experience with pwar vs dk is for example streets first packs, if healers does not dispells the adds, they will hurt, with bdk you barely feel them
vernal vale
thats nice to here lone not as bad as ithought then
The big thing is people understanding you don't have personal recovery like DKs do.
vernal vale
If you take a big spike of damage because a kick is misses you don't get to deathstrike it back.
odd tree
true, does help to run with friends who know how to interrupt mobs
wind locust
yeah tbh I always had pro warr as a premade grp tank in my mind
cinder storm
You need solid players for pwar to shine
I used to grab 5 packs first pack gambit, until those pesky empowered waterbolts started one shotting me bc ppl wouldnt kick them
sick sentinel
when u realize how bad 100% flying really is
odd tree
not sure if this was mentioned, but seems to be missed by alot of new pwars. use last stand as an offensive spell to extend banner
cinder storm
Yes
strong forum
Yes
jagged pier
odd tree
it really is
jagged pier
well no your unkillable with LS and banner up tbh
odd tree
challenge accepted
cinder storm
If you watch pika or tatt they barely use their SWs and their hp barely moves, with pugs I use that on CD 
lofty widget
1-1.30 min cd just use that shit
cinder storm
Granted, they use their stuns masterfully
sick sentinel
game told me bright red, need lvl 50 skip maw
cinder storm
With a holy priest who uses the things that reduces cd....oh boy
lofty widget
yea that thing is super nice
only reason im a bit sad i dont play with one
and GS cause you look sick with wings
cinder storm
I play with one, but shammy feels a better counterpart imo, it can cover some weaknesses better and helps with kicks
vernal vale
My preferred healer is a good necro druid or resto shaman.
lofty widget
my fav healer is druid
odd tree
ive grown to like druid
vernal vale
Priests after that.
lofty widget
havent seen a single mw or paladin all season
vernal vale
I've seen both and it was just okay for the pally.
The mistwalkers where all bad experiences
grave crane
i have played with 3 pallys and every time people die and they leave lol
chilly brook
Good druids are great
strong forum
Druid is literally the most complimentary healer for us
vernal vale
^
chilly brook
But I feel like I’ve always had mediocre ones
median tulip
My most regular healer is one of my guild Shaman
strong forum
That's kinda int
cinder storm
Shaman was bad in bfa
strong forum
Defo aura and aura mastery is cracked
lofty widget
nahh shamans were lit in bfa
odd tree
dude i play with loves it, throwing out hots and then kitty weaving. looks kinda fun honestly
strong forum
Shaman was bad in bfa but it was the only healer I ever had
chilly brook
It’s not like they were the worst
strong forum
I did like 800 out of 890 keys with rsham
chilly brook
They just weren’t druids
lofty widget
pushed my highest keys in bfa with shamans
chilly brook
Honestly having wind shear was nice
lucid robin
So am I the only PWar still running Kyrian? XD
chilly brook
Probably
lofty widget
yes
median tulip
So am I the only PWar still running Kyrian? XD
Probably not, but Kyrian is not anywhere near as good as Necro
lofty widget
kyr is the meme key setup
lucid robin
I'm a terrible player with bad apm.
chilly brook
It is if you don’t play necro well
cinder storm
Kyrian is like the nerd kid and Necro is the cool kid
median tulip
There are a lot of people out there just doing their thing without regard to how bad it is. 🤷♂️
cinder storm
I'm a terrible player with bad apm.
Then kyrian is perfect for you
pulsar wedge
what yall think of the ignore pain change?
chilly brook
If you can’t be bothered to learn necro or play around your rage gen then you’re best off playing Kyrian or NF
median tulip
There's probably someone out there still playing Venthyr Protection Warrior
chilly brook
what yall think of the ignore pain change?
It’s a buff, what else is there to say
median tulip
what yall think of the ignore pain change?
It's a minor buff, but it's hardly a game-changer
toxic pewter
There's probably someone out there still playing Venthyr Protection Warrior
Hell ya I saw a gnome venthyr prot warrior yesterday
cinder storm
Hell ya I saw a gnome venthyr prot warrior yesterday
Did you look at yourself in the mirror?
odd tree
highest venth key this week was a 20
median tulip
Hell ya I saw a gnome venthyr prot warrior yesterday
That's some proper INTing
lucid robin
I havent even tried necro prot, just because I'm told it's maddening to keep banner uptime
lofty widget
sounds like a fun challenge to wrap s3 up
it's not really
just playing your rotation like normal
median tulip
I havent even tried necro prot, just because I'm told it's maddening to keep ban...
It really isn't. Just. Push. Buttons.
chilly brook
Not maddening at all
cinder storm
You just play properly and pull faster, that's pretty much it
grave crane
hittinga target dummy for 10 minutes and keeping it up is pretty chill
toxic pewter
That's some proper INTing
I killed him in pvp combat
median tulip
Necro is just like any other Cov, but with twice the Rage
cinder storm
Just focus on playing better and your banner uptime will come naturally
chilly brook
That’s the beauty of banner
median tulip
I killed him in pvp combat
Fun Fact: If you pummel Door of Shadows then they can't use Condemn
chilly brook
It rewards you for playing how you should anyways
toxic pewter
Fun Fact: If you pummel Door of Shadows then they can't use Condemn
Oh wow smart ty for that
chilly brook
cinder storm
If we had something other than reprisal, pwar Necro would be cracked
topaz field
im telling u prot would feel so much better if u could run AM and HR and could get rid of reprisal
lofty widget
nah
median tulip
im telling u prot would feel so much better if u could run AM and HR and could g...
Pfff. AM and Bolster
cinder storm
Reprisal should be baked into but let us just have sb when we charge in and take away the proc
strong forum
Or just let us get meaningful mitigation uptime without jumping through hoops
Just a thought
median tulip
Or just let us get meaningful mitigation uptime without jumping through hoops
Heresy!
cinder storm
You want Blizz to use their brains? Ha!
grave crane
Or just let us get meaningful mitigation uptime without jumping through hoops
wow lets not get too crazy there
topaz field
my teammates always laugh about me when i leap out for reprisal 😦 dont like that sort of bully
strong forum
Laugh back cuz you beat them on boss dmg
topaz field
pretty true
cinder storm
chilly brook
Or just let us get meaningful mitigation uptime without jumping through hoops
Idk their philosophy on prot paladin has me worried in that regard
chilly brook
They’re targeting 60% uptime on SOTR for them
Not like it really matters too much since they’re getting a TON of other mitigation to compensate
chilly brook
But unless encounter design changes to be more like legion it’s not great
strong forum
Which is why pwar will get a bit better in s4 cuz alot more dmg is physical
chilly brook
Which
I would be chill with
It also depends on how damage intake is
If things go back to being an AM check type deal it won’t be a huge problem
median tulip
Which is why pwar will get a bit better in s4 cuz alot more dmg is physical
Sludgefist xD
strong forum
Well im moreso talking about dungeons
The raids will be literally whatever
CN and sod will be extremely easy
median tulip
"Oh Sludgefist hits really hard" "No he fucking doesn't"
chilly brook
Even if it doesn’t, if you can pump high passive block chance like the tree seems to let you it shouldn’t matter too much either
Fuck divine toll
Divine Toll only feels good because it floods you with HP
median tulip
I solo tanked HC Sludge back in S1 when my cotank d/c'd on pull. He is not fucking hard
strong forum
They literally just got it
jagged pier
honestly just get rid of wow even more cringe
chilly brook
They literally just got it
They’ve had it since Cata
dawn canyon
Andy solo tanked mythic sludge in pieces CN speedrun
chilly brook
It only went away for prot in like Legion and BFA
chilly brook
It’s just a cringe tack on combo point system that shouldn’t have been added
jagged pier
true
chilly brook
Especially since what makes combo points work is a secondary resource aka energy
chrome falcon
Tbf divine toll AND eye of tyr is
A lot
But also avengers shield maybe bad button now so??? Who knows
ionic fern
Tbf divine toll AND eye of tyr is
Eye of Tyr doesn't hit hard on its own tho...
chilly brook
But also avengers shield maybe bad button now so??? Who knows
Nah not gonna be a bad button
chilly brook
Just less used
chrome falcon
There was an eye of tyr Lego?
chilly brook
Or more used depending on what side of the tree you go
chrome falcon
Or do you mean an artifact trait
chilly brook
Isn’t this just their artifact ability?
Idk I don’t remember using it too much back in legion
chrome falcon
Yeah
It was a pretty sick ability but idk why they need it AND divine toll
They’re pretty similar buttons
ionic roost
Especially since what makes combo points work is a secondary resource aka energy
Energy is the same as ability CDR
chilly brook
DT isn’t a DR
chrome falcon
Oh shit yeah I wonder if that’ll work lmao
chilly brook
Energy is the same as ability CDR
It’s not though
ionic roost
Yes it is
chilly brook
???
mighty valley
apples ARE oranges
dawn canyon
It adds an absorb but doesnt reduce dam taking by X%
chilly brook
It only works like that in a vacuum lmao
ionic roost
Scales with haste, can pool buttons same as pooling energy
Only time it's not the same, is when you have 1 generator
chilly brook
Yea let’s forget about main gauche, poison energy return etc.
lime urchin
A weaker one
dawn canyon
Except good
lucid robin
So is the goal to pool a certain amount of rage before dropping banner and then punching revenge until your fingers hurt?
ionic roost
Yea let’s forget about main gauche, poison energy return etc.
Let's forget about resets and procs
cinder storm
Pink is a variation of brown
dawn canyon
So is the goal to pool a certain amount of rage before dropping banner and then ...
You wanna be spending rage at all times
chilly brook
Energy and flat cooldown timers work completely different
lucid robin
Well, I have slower fingers and decision making skills, so dropping banner at lower rage and depending solely on generating it fast enough isn't likely to work as well. 😄
ionic roost
Energy and CDs on generators for paladins are both hasted
strong forum
That's literally every spender/generator class
lofty widget
Well, I have slower fingers and decision making skills, so dropping banner at lo...
one rage bar doesnt matter in the grand scheme of keeping banner up, so it doesnt matter if you drop it at 0 or 100 rage
strong forum
If you are being this shallow
chrome falcon
Popping banner then immediately spending 100 rage on it is only going to increase uptime by a few seconds
at most
just press it on CD
dawn canyon
Slow fingers isnt ideal for prot sadly
chrome falcon
you're going to pump like 20 full rage bars into it over its whole duration
strong forum
We generate 20 rage per second
chrome falcon
one extra won't matter
strong forum
Pooling 100 at the beginning or not does not matter
lucid robin
Yeah, I saw someone do an analysis its the highest apm class right now.
chrome falcon
by a pretty wide margin yeah
mighty valley
There are only a few bullet points to drill into your head for what buttons to press and when as prot, then it's just practice to follow them automatically
lofty widget
around 85-90 cpm ye
chilly brook
You wouldn’t want to pool anyways tbh
chrome falcon
i'm normally 20 cpm ahead of the rest of my raid team
chrome falcon
maybe less if one of my DHs is trying real hard
chilly brook
Your decision making is literally this: press revenj, and also press IP to prevent capping
lucid robin
Yeah, need more practice but not sure how well this will work for me. i only managed to keep it up for 36 seconds.
chilly brook
My man
grave crane
go to a practice dummy
lofty widget
best way to improve is just hit a dummy
dawn canyon
You got the last stand conduit on?
chilly brook
Practice dummy
lofty widget
until you keep it up for 2 minutes straight
grave crane
tier helps too
chilly brook
Also what’s the default 15 seconds?
grave crane
yeah 15
lucid robin
I have 4 piece and double leggo
chrome falcon
every prot warrior needs to start out by just hitting a dummy until they hit 2 minutes uptime
period
before you do a key
chilly brook
Yea then you should be easily hitting 1 minute
chrome falcon
if you can;'t do that then log your attempts and show us
chilly brook
But def 2 minutes
lucid robin
but, I also notice that I cannot push buttons that fast without tensing up my arm and shoulder.
dawn canyon
For good measure aim for 10 minutes on one Banner
lofty widget
but, I also notice that I cannot push buttons that fast without tensing up my ar...
then you shouldnt tbh
chilly brook
but, I also notice that I cannot push buttons that fast without tensing up my ar...
Do it
chrome falcon
20 seconds of extra uptime is only 400 rage spent in that timeframe which is about half of what it should be
dawn canyon
but, I also notice that I cannot push buttons that fast without tensing up my ar...
What might help is putting some binds on your mouse
urban portal
maybe prot war isnt for you
strong forum
Re-bind your keys
chrome falcon
yeah i mean if you're having discomfort doing it then don't do it
sweet summit
how are your keybinds
chrome falcon
but also unless you have some kind of health issue in your arm
that probably means your binds suck
grave crane
are you using a drumset as your keyboard?
strong forum
Ignore pain, revenge and SS should be very easy to press buttons
chilly brook
No, like discomfort is natural
lofty widget
no its not
dawn canyon
IP spacebar 
chrome falcon
it's really not griff i can play this spec at 90 cpm for 30 mins and have no problems
chilly brook
Forcing yourself to go faster will not be comfortable
dawn canyon
Do not break your hands over this
chrome falcon
and sure i have a lot of practice but
lucid robin
I have alternating abilities on my mouse and keyboard.
dawn canyon
Not worth it
chilly brook
Until you realize it’s not that crazy
grave crane
i mean that wouldnt be a bad idea
chilly brook
And then it’s no longer uncomfortable
sweet summit
you should not be uncomfortable ??
grave crane
put spam abilities on mouse buttons. i got ip and revenge on 4 and 5
chrome falcon
you should be able to press all your buttons within like a 4x4 grid of buttons on your keyboard plus your mouse
grave crane
SB is E
strong forum
Press F to Ignore Pain
chrome falcon
IP SS and revenge should all be within like 2 buttons of each other
lucid robin
There just seem to be times when the clock is ticking and I dont' have enough rage to hit anything and SS and TC and both on cooldown
strong forum
lofty widget
F is mount-up 
sweet summit
wth
strong forum
There just seem to be times when the clock is ticking and I dont' have enough ra...
Charge
lofty widget
There just seem to be times when the clock is ticking and I dont' have enough ra...
charge weave
chrome falcon
then you're not generating anywhere near enough
median tulip
Press F to Ignore Pain
F is Shield Black; G is IP
chrome falcon
or you need to go charge weave and proc rep
like i said mate just go hit a dummy with banner up and log it
coarse ginkgo
I know some friend with hand accessibility stuff and they use stuff like this. Say good things.
chilly brook
you should not be uncomfortable ??
Let me clarify, I’m not saying you should be uncomfortable when playing. However if you’re new to going fast and just adjusting it will be uncomfortable from “stress” you’re putting on yourself and it being new
chrome falcon
and show us the log
chilly brook
Obviously if your binds are terrible change them
strong forum
And LS
median tulip
You need avatar, Demo, charge SS and TC always on CD on pure ST
and Ravager
strong forum
And ravager, cuz you'll play ravager in keys
dawn canyon
If i dont play for 2 weeks i do feel it but then it goes away again
cinder storm
You also need carpal tunnel gloves, either you get those or play other class until your pain fades away, I'm not joking, I literally had to do that
median tulip
Necro Protection is Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: The Spec
strong forum
I work alot with my hands so Im safe regarding strain
chilly brook
But then you start realizing “huh this actually isn’t that bad, I’m just pressing IP a lot so probably put it on something easy to it”
mighty valley
different people have different wrists, some people get awful RSI just doing regular typing for office jobs
hazy edge
wrist exercises unironically help a lot
dawn canyon
Keybinds are make or break imo
chrome falcon
when i'm just doing prog nights on long encounters i normally spend half the break stretching my fingers and wrists
hazy edge
been doing them before I play for a few months now and things have gotten much much easier
chilly brook
I’m not saying you should be going out of your way to put yourself into carpal tunnel lol
lucid robin
does anyone have a highly viisible "YOUR BANNER IS UP" wa they use that they can share?
chrome falcon
anyway all the advice we can give this guy means nothing if we don't have a log imo
median tulip
Get one of these:
chilly brook
All I’m saying is you’re going to be uncomfortable and probably tense up because you’re putting more importance on it than you should
mighty valley
i also don't feel wrist discomfort playing prot warrior, either due to good keybinds or god's own wrists
chrome falcon
yes but having banner up should not actually change your playstyle in any meaningful way @lucid robin
vernal vale
every prot warrior needs to start out by just hitting a dummy until they hit 2 m...
This, I maintained banner on a tanking dummy until it just outright killed me a while back.
chrome falcon
even if you don't have banner up
you should still be generating and spending as much as possible
cinder storm
Make sure you have some cushion and a proper position for your wrists too
chilly brook
does anyone have a highly viisible "YOUR BANNER IS UP" wa they use that they can...
Don’t need one, the only WA you need for banner is being able to see your rage bar
lucid robin
All I’m saying is you’re going to be uncomfortable and probably tense up because...
WEll, yeah, that's my problem playing the game at all. Even with slow apm classes, I tend to tense up when combat is happening.
chrome falcon
if you mean like your muscles are tensing up then that's a physical issue but if you just mean like
chilly brook
^
chrome falcon
your best bet really is to just spend an hour hitting dummies
chilly brook
Which is why I said just do it
dawn canyon
Going from no pwar to current pwar is a jump
median tulip
Just. Push. Buttons.
chilly brook
It’s nothing but getting comfortable
mighty valley
motivates me
chrome falcon
oh yeah harrow i agree people should def play with one
but sometimes people think there's a "banner rotation" when there really isn't
it's just the regular rotation
chilly brook
I like having a banner timer WA
I just find it helpful to be able to see the time left at a glance to determine how fast I gotta go
lucid robin
Don’t need one, the only WA you need for banner is being able to see your rage b...
I just need something that tells me when i'm fucked up so I can start over, or when I've hit two minutes. I feel like there must be a banner uptime wa
lucid robin
https://tenor.com/view/pressing-buttons-i-like-gif-12815926
Catbug!
chilly brook
Well there’s not a whole lot of “start over”
mighty valley
i mean, the banner icon CD is your 2 min timer
lofty widget
I just need something that tells me when i'm fucked up so I can start over, or w...
https://wago.io/8Z7bmQgP7 first result on wago.io
chilly brook
Banner is just follow basic rotation while spending your rage
lofty widget
dunno if it works properly
median tulip
Everyone should learn how to make weakauras themselves
chrome falcon
you already have two reasons to want to constantly dump rage (tier and AM)
banner is just a third one
cinder storm
Banner is just for you, even when you see other ppl getting the buff
dawn canyon
Ye weakauras is just messing with templates and stealing from premades till u can make em on ur own
cinder storm
Play in a way, where you tell yourself, "the better I do this the more dmg/defense I get"
lucid robin
So are there buttons I should simply NOT press becasue they are a waste of GCD?
median tulip
So are there buttons I should simply NOT press becasue they are a waste of GCD?
Whirlwind
cinder storm
Kek
fallow crag
Take WW right off the bars
sick sentinel
WHARLWIND
lofty widget
So are there buttons I should simply NOT press becasue they are a waste of GCD?
hamstring
median tulip
Why would you press WW, when you can press Revenj
mighty valley
there are occasions in LS that you should skip pressing TC because you're not gonna dump rage fast enough without pressing IP + Revenge
but in general you want maximum rage income
median tulip
I can't remember the last time I pressed Intimidating Shout, either
lofty widget
uh
fallow crag
Hard cc for unkickables
lofty widget
intimidating shout is huge
lofty widget
aoe kick, gets distance for charge
fallow crag
chrome falcon
i've probably pressed like 3+ intimidating shouts every keyt this expansion
median tulip
I have Shockwave and Storm Bolt tho
chrome falcon
you have storm bolt?
median tulip
Sometimes
chrome falcon
wait what does storm bolt compete with
fallow crag
Double time
lofty widget
any pack with any caster is worth an intimidating shout
median tulip
Double Time and Rumbling Earth
chrome falcon
no shot you're dropping DT
lofty widget
oops sry
fallow crag
The Chad stormbolt maneuver
lofty widget
i felt a bit naked without SB for the first few dungeons, but you REALLY dont need it
chrome falcon
i don't think i've run storm bolt since reprisal came out
that sounds insane to me
i hadn't even considered it as a thing someone would do
median tulip
One of my hopes for the DF talent trees is to be able to take SBolt on the regular again
fallow crag
I'll run SB for extremely specific scenarios admittedly
lofty widget
i did for half of s1, but i was bad
strong forum
Stormbolt is extremely good, but double time is kind of a big thing for reprisal...
I wish I could run stormbolt
It's so good
median tulip
Yeah, in S1 I ran a lot of SB
lucid robin
If you're keeping charge constantly on cooldown..how does that work? I get Leap > Charge, though I'm consistently shit at that, but charge has a much shorter cooldown than leap, and 2 charges?
fallow crag
Hard stun and a quick thwack to bosses
hazy edge
Being forced into double time is one of my qualms with reprisal
median tulip
But in S1 Reprisal wasn't a thing
cinder storm
It is, but with reprisal Necro you'd want to use your gcds on other stuff
lofty widget
If you're keeping charge constantly on cooldown..how does that work? I get Leap ...
you have 30 % move speed with banner
chrome falcon
there are casters
fallow crag
Also intervene your melee
chrome falcon
leaping out to get a charge is only a thing on bosses without casts
chrome falcon
leap+charge is clunky as hell
chrome falcon
and if you're slow then it's super not worth it
literally just run back 2 steps and charge back in
lofty widget
intervene into charge feels worse
fallow crag
I've got focus inv macro for my usual groups hunter
lofty widget
cause you waste revenge proc
fallow crag
True
median tulip
If you're keeping charge constantly on cooldown..how does that work? I get Leap ...
It's a surprisingly short step out to get charge distance, and a lot of packs have a caster that will give you distance for free, and many boss mechanics will give you the chance to charge
You have to get used to fighting at max melee distance; a lot of people fight at a position that's actually within the hit box of the mobs; it's not necessary
cinder storm
Does character models affect skills? I have to go like hella far with my ztroll to charge and with my vulpera bdk I have to be almost inside adds
fallow crag
Idr if hitbox counts
median tulip
IDK, I always play Orcs
dawn canyon
How u charge on BDK tho
fallow crag
Work work
dawn canyon
cinder storm
How u charge on BDK tho
To melee I mean
dawn canyon
Ah
lucid robin
Do I need to use a tanking dummy btw? Is getting hit critical to rage generation?
peak forge
I hope whoever is trying to keep necrotic affix at blizzard gets promoted off the game 🙂
ionic fern
Do I need to use a tanking dummy btw? Is getting hit critical to rage generation...
It helps, yes.
cinder storm
Do I need to use a tanking dummy btw? Is getting hit critical to rage generation...
Yes, get a tanking dummy
ionic fern
I hope whoever is trying to keep necrotic affix at blizzard gets promoted off th...
Why?
lofty widget
necrotic isnt really a big deal
ionic fern
They have nerfed Necrotic so many times that there's almost nothing left.
peak forge
its unfun
cinder storm
I hope whoever is trying to keep necrotic affix at blizzard gets promoted off th...
It's better than before, the issue with necrotic are the adds that can give you like 30 stacks in 2s like NW first pack
ionic fern
Fun is subjective.
strong forum
You can keep up Banner indefinitely even on a dummy which doesn't attack you
lofty widget
i think its kinda fun to race the mobs to 0 with 50+ necro stacks
peak forge
Fun is subjective.
not when it comes to necrotic no
strong forum
So set that as your benchmark
ionic fern
not when it comes to necrotic no
Idk
cinder storm
So it's not an issue with the affix per se, but more so the mobs
ionic fern
I don't find it unfun.
cinder storm
Adds that leap behind the tank are cringe
urban portal
i mean on prot its optimal to leap out and charge back in
so instead of charign back in immediately
you charge back in 4 seconds later
scenic mural
Is old warrior soul still bis next season with nerf?
lofty widget
ye
urban portal
the only thing this nerf did is to make sure its not good in 10.0
mighty valley
necrotic is such a non issue that i almost completely forget about it for most normal level keys
except a few times per dungeon where i'm like oh fuck i'm at 50 stacks, right
leap out for a few seconds, go back to normal
lucid robin
So...up to 1:06 now.
lofty widget
good progress!
open gazelle
I love necrotic tbh
grave crane
Thats good
open gazelle
Intervene to healer run for 2 more secs charge back in
Kinda fun if you ask me
I’m glad it’s on a shorter duration now tho
That 10 secs of necrotic before blew ass
strong forum
Your definition of fun does not align with my definition of fun
dawn canyon
Now call them cringe
strong forum
I shall now hate you
lofty widget
only un-fun affixes are those you cant play around
strong forum
That's the rules of the internet
lucid robin
Is it just me or do the tanking dummies in the Necro storghold have oddly small hitboxes?
fallow osprey
Maybe you have oddly small arms
lucid robin
I don't seem to melee them unless I'm literally on top of them.
lofty widget
if you can SS them, you can melee them
strong forum
You can hit them with SS, you can melee them
lucid robin
Slowly but surely. 1:15.
median tulip
So...up to 1:06 now.
Remember to Charge weave
chilly brook
here's a wild idea
a super wild one
what if
they reworked necrotic, so that it still had healing reduction buuuuut it gave you a damage buff as well
lucid robin
1:25.
cinder storm
I'd rather have spiteful just slow or haste debuff than that
median tulip
they reworked necrotic, so that it still had healing reduction buuuuut it gave y...
Typically only seasonal affixes have an upside
astral wave
they reworked necrotic, so that it still had healing reduction buuuuut it gave y...
Depending on how much of a buff, it would skyrocket some of the tanks who can get really high in stacks
cinder storm
Prideful falls within that typically
chilly brook
Typically only seasonal affixes have an upside
tbh, all of m+ would be better if they got rid of fort and tyran and redesigned affixes so they're less just downsides and also add something to your gameplay
median tulip
tbh, all of m+ would be better if they got rid of fort and tyran and redesigned ...
I would agree, but blizz do blizz things
chilly brook
Depending on how much of a buff, it would skyrocket some of the tanks who can ge...
that would be far more interesting than the way tank meta falls atm for m+
cinder storm
It would actually make m+ easier to balance
astral wave
that would be far more interesting than the way tank meta falls atm for m+
Unfortunately, it would be the top meta tanks that would benefit the most
chilly brook
having weeks where some tanks benefit more than others already exist
cinder storm
Necrotic is free for bear/palas/dks
chilly brook
DK's disappeared anytime necrotic showed up for the longest time lol
astral wave
I mained BRM all last season and if necrotic gave a damage buff I would be gapping people on dps
chilly brook
that's fine
astral wave
Cause brm just eat necrotic stacks for breakfast
lucid robin
Are you using Last Stand with the conduit for increased rage generation?
You know, I am not.
chilly brook
You know, I am not.
go slot it
median tulip
Bears fucking laugh at Necrotic
chilly brook
huge rage gains when you use it
lucid robin
I have the conudit.
chilly brook
pop it oin CD during banner
lucid robin
Just not using last stand.
astral wave
that's fine
But I do like the way you think, things like this would be more fun than just "ok this time, the boss is 200% stronger"
median tulip
You know, I am not.
Last Stand is a big part of the Rage generation equation
chilly brook
But I do like the way you think, things like this would be more fun than just "o...
M+ has just been stale since Legion largely
Seasonal affixes were a great move in BFA after s1 fiasco
chilly brook
but they really need to embrace the system and go balls to the wall
chilly brook
so what would you guys like to see fort/tyr replaced with?
it wouldn't be
cinder storm
Just better affixes
hollow kayak
so what would you guys like to see fort/tyr replaced with?
nothing. removed.
lucid robin
So opener should be like "Charge -> Avatar -> Demo shout -> Banner -> Rev + IP -> Last Stand" then the normal rotational stuff?
chilly brook
there's no reason to have it
median tulip
What was the affix with the fucking Pilar's in DE BfA called?
chrome falcon
So opener should be like "Charge -> Avatar -> Demo shout -> Banner -> Rev + IP -...
Banner during charge
chilly brook
it messes with tuning far more than anything else in the game imo
chilly brook
What was the affix with the fucking Pilar's in DE BfA called?
awakened innit?
chrome falcon
You're pretty far away from the correct opener with that
You've got 2 globals in there before you do any damage
astral wave
so what would you guys like to see fort/tyr replaced with?
Its easy to "replace" them by just upping the base scaling of higher keys to compensate too. Like it doesnt have to be a straight up trade for somrthing else
chrome falcon
You want to cast either banner or ravager during charge
median tulip
That changed routes quite substantially
chrome falcon
Then open with revenge
For threat
Or open with SS if you have ravager down
But if you go charge, banner, DS, your dps are going to be hella fucking dead
median tulip
So opener should be like "Charge -> Avatar -> Demo shout -> Banner -> Rev + IP -...
I hit Last Stand before everything. It works on the rage gain from Charge/Reprisal
chilly brook
The problem with Tyran/Fort is it means things are a joke one week and wildly inconsistent the other. It's such a huge balancing problem that the first season of M+ is always a huge balancing pendulum because they have to nerf bosses a ridiculous amount or tyran a ridiculous amount before it's even playable
chrome falcon
after four rage generators?
lofty widget
I hit Last Stand before everything. It works on the rage gain from Charge/Repris...
only charge btw
chrome falcon
^
lofty widget
not the rep bonus
lucid robin
Banner during charge
Because charge -> avatar -> demo caps me.
median tulip
TIL
chilly brook
the base of the dungeon should be consistent week to week
chrome falcon
Not if you mash IP hard enough 
median tulip
Because charge -> avatar -> demo caps me.
IP is off the GCD. So is Shield Block.
chrome falcon
^
lucid robin
i don't know how you people are mashing three buttons at once or if you just have everything macroed to everything else.
chilly brook
so press IP and shield block
chrome falcon
Charge is 5 and SB is 7 on my mouse
I can press both instantly
Avatar is 9 so that's pretty easy too
astral wave
i don't know how you people are mashing three buttons at once or if you just hav...
Just push 3 buttons
median tulip
i don't know how you people are mashing three buttons at once or if you just hav...
What part of "Carpal Tunnel Spec" was unclear?
chilly brook
i don't know how you people are mashing three buttons at once or if you just hav...
My IP is on this
lucid robin
Is banner a gcd?
chilly brook
My charge and shield block are on my keyboard
chilly brook
Is banner a gcd?
Yes
lofty widget
Is banner a gcd?
ye
odd tree
mmo mouse definitely helps
astral wave
Starcraft 2 has trained me to break my wrist slapping keys. Wow rotations are easy in comparison
cinder storm
the base of the dungeon should be consistent week to week
Right, a new player experiencing a +2 should experience the same difficulties pack wise the higher the key levels are, but they are met with having to worry about one thing one week and another thing the next week regarding bosses and trash, and you have to account that most or some dungeons have a fort route and a Tyr route to make it worse
lucid robin
I have a 12 button mmo mouse. 😄
median tulip
Starcraft 2 has trained me to break my wrist slapping keys. Wow rotations are ea...
Preach