Let's make the Attack Speed Bonus ID static!

[tiny zinc]

To preface this, this feedback is mostly aimed at Salted. I've asked IMs before why attack speed isn't static, and they have told me that it's because Salted thinks rollable items should be as rollable as possible. I get that, but, as I've hopefully conveyed successfully below, Attack Speed is simply too powerful of a stat to make rollable, as it reduces item maker creativity and build possibilities, and makes the item over-reliant on this one ID.

There's a bunch of reasons I want this to change. But I'll give a bit of an introduction to the problem first:
As you know, Wynncraft's item system involves a lot of RNG with how good your item is. Each item has certain IDs, each with their own range based off of a base value, and when you identify one all these identifications are rolled to be somewhere in that range. I think this is fine, because gamba as it leads to a more healthy economy and allows for an extra layer of progression between for instance average mythic items, and godly mythics.

However, in some cases, rollable IDs can also be quite problematic. Historically, this was the most apparent with skill points: some builds would be completely locked if the skill point rolls on your items weren't high enough. Luckily for us, this was changed many years ago and now we have our static skill point IDs. Barring the people that had godly Blue Masks, this change was very well-liked, and allowed for easier balancing of items and the addition of crazy items that otherwise would have been unthinkable to add (Moontower lol). Overall, it improved the game a lot.

(continues next msg)

Now, there is another identification that similarly can enable or disable builds based on the quality of the roll: Attack Speed Bonus. This ID is most noticeable on cancelstack builds, where you get a weapon with excess +tiers and cancel those out with powerful -tier items to get a lot of raw main attack damage at super fast attack speed. With the nature of attack speeds, getting even a single tier below super fast massively downgrades your dps and pretty much disables your build. What this means is that your excess tiers weapon and your -tiers armors often need to have perfect rolls on Attack Speed Bonus, and become useless otherwise.

So that's reason #1: builds like cancelstack are currently way too reliant on good rolls, which makes trying the playstyle not fun at all and very expensive. Making atk speed rolls static would make the cancelstack playable even with relatively bad rolls.
But there are more reasons.

Reason #2: It would make building cancelstack more fun, as you will always know exactly how many tiers you gain or lose depending on the item of your choosing. This, again, also helps with balancing for the item makers.

Reason #3: Besides some of these cancelstack weapons, almost all items that alter attack speed are currently restricted to either +1 or -1 attack speed (because this is not rollable and makes it easy to balance around), or have massive -attack speed to force heavy melee because** it is very hard to make a balanced attack speed item otherwise**. Take base 2 (and -2) for instance: this creates a range of 1 to 3. Since 3 attack speed tiers are just so much more powerful than 2 and 1, item makers simply have to balance the item around +3 attack speed (or only -1 in the case of base -2), usually giving it massive downsides. This in turn makes the item only worth using if you have a perfect attack speed roll on it, and disproportionally weak otherwise. If Attack Speed rolls became static, item makers would be able to make +2 atk speed items - which is currently impossible on rollable items - that are actually balanced around +2 tiers.

Reason #4: This kind of adds on to reason #3, but** Item Makers will get a lot of freedom to making +tier and -tier items if the ID wasn't rollable**. +2 tier items are possible, -2 tier items are possible, even heavy melee items can be made with cancelstack fully in mind.

Thank you for reading!

[gentle maple]

what if they chose a roll you didnt like?
what if bete noire got the low end of the roll range instead of the high?

[bleak dome]

thats a good point..

[woven lake]

i think trance should get 13

that is all

kbones needs 3 too

[gentle maple]

kbones would get 1

like

[woven lake]

why would i use kbones then

when span is right there

[gentle maple]

theyre (probably) rollable also so ims dont have to choose

if kbones always had +3, nobody would use any other bracelet for tstack

[woven lake]

it already has 3

[gentle maple]

if it always had +1 it would never be used for tstack

[woven lake]

anything below 3 on kbones is already useless

[gentle maple]

I would disagree but ok

[tiny zinc]

gyuh

[bleak dome]

it has -ls, thats a good enough reason to think about

[gentle maple]

divzer

[bleak dome]

why are you tstacking divzer 💀

[gentle maple]

you could cancelstack with bete noire

[woven lake]

cstack divzer uses momentum

[gentle maple]

ehh

i have a lot of theory builds

i just worry this would cause more issues than it would solve

[dusty socket]

if there's any concern about attack speed roll conversions on specific items being undesirable i feel like the community item change polls coming in fruma may help with this

[bleak dome]

or IMs are smart enough to deal with that

[barren raptor]

as someone who has been here since before the rounding changes, this makes sense

[urban frigate]

mfs in 1.18: noooooooooo my +20 sp godly blue mask is worthless now that they made sp static

people will just get over it and it'd definitely be a net benefit in the long term because it also gives IMs design freedom

with not having to worry about roll ranges being abused for cstack when making HM items

[cunning pond]

i'm not saying my thoughts on the change in regards to whether or not it will or should happen, but simply saying what i expect would happen if it were to occur:

cancelstack items and +aspd items (bete noire, trance, etc) would likely be given their best possible value as to avoid unintentional nerfs to those builds. tierdrop items (atlas, tenuto, etc) would probably be given an average or worse value, to prevent breaking builds using those values to hit sslow.
this is based on the skill point change, where most skill point items were given their best possible values (outside of items with abnormally high sp, particularly things like pre-nerf prism, bmask, vaward, etc)

[barren raptor]

mfs in 1.16 : noo my +2 tier clock boots

https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/item-id-rounding-changes-could-break-builds-please-read.209530/ it's the exact same thing lol

[strong coyote]

any roll other than max roll on these attack speed stats are useless..... only max roll is useful

[cunning pond]

in an ideal world i feel like we would be able to customize roll ranges similar to ingredients but i don't see that ever happening

[cunning pond]

this is also just my personal opinion

[glossy carbon]

I like this as a change, I don't think it's the most necessary thing of all time but I also think there's very little meaningful downside

[sick canyon]

Very good change I agree

[crimson oxide]

we're gonna get monkey pawed and every rollable attack speed ID is unrollable but the max roll is reduced (like unrolled +2 atkspd for knucklebones)

[strong coyote]

I always look at attack tier stats, and think "why is this rollable"?

I hope this thread gets a lot of upvotes

[late wasp]

i think attack tier should be rollable! if it were only 1 roll, it would be less diversity.

for example, bete tiers at max tier roll and min tier roll is useful for trance and divzer (afaik)

[urban frigate]

thats like the single example where having rollable range attack tier can be viewed as a benefit

against a litany of cases where something is e.g unusable in cancelstack unless it’s got perfect attack speed rolls

the benefits of this proposed change definitely outweigh the few edge cases, which in the long term can probably be rectified with new item additions anyway

[late wasp]

also its not like any mythic has tier rolls, these arent hard or expensive items to roll

[urban frigate]

Trance.

[dusty socket]

i think that's more because bete has cstack and spellspam IDs so it has that dual function

[late wasp]

forgot about trance ngl.

[naive rampart]

One of the new reliks also has it, and it will likely matter

[late wasp]

i feel like for these few le items you can just roll a good roll.

[urban frigate]

Trance has tier rolls and is only usable in cancelstack IF you have godly rolls on the attack speed

besides, the REASON we only have one mythic with rollable tiers is definitely because rollable tiers are horribly hard to balance, especially for mythics that naturally have low supply

[late wasp]

idk about my opinion on mythics having it though, maybe i just dont have a good opinion because i just hate trance as a weapon

[naive rampart]

My 2 cents : This idea has been in the back of my head for a long time, just didn't want to put the effort into making a thread on it. I would like the attack speed tier id to be static

[urban frigate]

Maybe you hate trance as a weapon because it’s got a really bipolar identity BECAUSE the ims can’t reasonably commit to making it a fully cancelstack weapon due to the rng of +tier rolls

[naive rampart]

They had to adjust Final Spark because of this shit lol

[scarlet arch]

just equalze them all in the middle and call it a day.

[glossy carbon]

Maybe it would be possible to have some rollable and some not? After all there's plenty of items with rollable and unrollable health

[urban frigate]

thats not possible and no there isn’t any unrollable +health aside from items that are fully unrollable

[glossy carbon]

What I mean is all items have a base unrollable health value and then some have rollable health as well, so why couldn't the same be done for attack speed? Bigger change yes but I think possible

[urban frigate]

because unrollable health is not coded as an id the same way as other IDs

also that would cause needless confusion and again whats even the point when 99% of items would be better off with static tier rolls

[glossy carbon]

It just seems to me that the item system is weird for this, and there would be more ability for item makers to do cool things if they were able to treat any value as rollable or unrollable as they chose, I get it's not currently coded that way but I don't see why it shouldn't be

[urban frigate]

i mean yeah as a whole i agree but overhauling the entire system to account for that goes far beyond the scope of this suggestion, just from a technical/implementation standpoint

[glossy carbon]

Fair

I guess it's just that this suggestion points to a deeper problem but just applies a bandaid fix

[urban frigate]

“bandaid fix” is underselling it but whatever

[barren raptor]

isnt this the case for some items already? overdrive as an example has a set super slow attack speed and will roll somewhere between +2 and +9 making it effectively slow-super fast instead

[glossy carbon]

Yes, but that's only for weapons I believe

[barren raptor]

in the same way that weapons dont have fixed hp & rollable hp

[glossy carbon]

true, but there are quite a few weapons that have both fixed and rollable main attack damage

it's just kinda janky all around imo

[half apex]

Please manage to fix whichever wynn backend causing the shitshow lol

[next idol]

flat out idk if we can currently make one ID static (merchant items are all IDs static) unless its 1/1

Would totally be fine if we had this though, opens the door to new design ideas

[vague fossil]

Wasn’t this the case with skill points when they went static, or are they completely seperate from the legacy rolling system now? Just curious

[glossy carbon]

That's kinda my thoughts with it, it would be nice to have the option to at the least

[low chasm]

it would need to be handled specially like skill points are where they're technically ids but aren't rolled, but given that there's already 5 ids that work like this, adding another isn't unreasonable.

[half apex]

wait till you hear about flat spellcosts being an absolute headache

that shit is way more problematic than atkspeed in terms of im designing issues

[ripe sentinel]

I genuinely don't see the argument of leaving attackspeed rollable. It is a stat that should have been static in the first place. the only other arguement could be that itll be hard to implement but it would free up and make build making not a pain in the ass. There are so many more applications of attackspeed especially when it comes to tierdropping and whatnot.

Attackspeed being rollable doesnt fuel creativity in build making it is quite literally just a headache when making builds and buying specific items.

[scenic osprey]

-1200 ls?

[tiny zinc]

it's often not that easy. Getting a max roll is sometimes a lot harder because max is often rarer than one below max due to how roll ranges work. For instance, base 2 has a much higher chance of rolling +2 tiers than +3

[tiny zinc]

Probably wouldn't even happen. We can just assume that removing rolls will make it way easier to balance the tier items and thus lead to a healthier metagame, with probably most max rolls becoming the base because cancelstack isn't absurdly strong with max rolls right now

And again, it's just like with skill points. If the new tiers aren't the same as max rolls, it will still lead to a healthier cstack meta and allow for new items to be made without worrying about them being OP at god rolls and garbage at low rolls

[wind cedar]

What about changing/reworking the way attack speed works, making it both an static id with a numerical value (being 0 for normal speed), negative and positives values being equivalent of how slow/fast attacks are and also how they magnify things like LS/MS

like "attack speed: 10"

this would also make melee more interesting and coupled with AT would be amazing, LB orb speed could be fixed according to the Attack speed, MIDs that could use Attack speed as another way to get benefits (for example powder special charging according to the number, etc...)

[thin cipher]

very Real post je hooft thank you

[tiny zinc]

np i love you

[woven lake]

I just checked but having 1 tier off on trance is an 8k dps loss

Lol

1 lost seconds -> vivisected

[raven ridge]

Even with +3 I don't see it used rarely because drawbacks are really hard to work around

[fair ice]

what if you want +5 static attack speed, just add +1 attack speed id 5 times

i am maybe the smartest person alive

[thin cipher]

ly2 bae thanks

[shy saffron]

Insanely post, hope to see it happen

[neat harbor]

yes this post makes so much sense

[gilded hare]

this change would legit change everything about the game that i don’t think the item makers are willing to mess around with

even if this does make sense

trance builds are super toxic requiring multiple perfect rolls for a specific number

on multiple armor pieces too

[scarlet arch]

just give it +2

[raven ridge]

I would love to see something happening to spell costs too

Very similar issues, actually

I generally hate roll hell, wynn's item system is ass

And attack speed is a fruit of these flaws

[low chasm]

builds that aren't optimized to hell and back can handle roll raviance with spell costs, and not perfectly sustaining is never the end of the world. Attack Speed on the other hand can cause insane damage loss and borderline unusability without perfect rolls.

There's also significantly more options for spell cost items, along with five different ways you can improve the sustain of a spell, (%, raw, mr, ms, and int), along with Tome slots for costs/mr/ms, and orders of magnitude more item options, meaning fixing the sustain of a build to account for lower rolls is trivial in comparison to somehow accounting for lower attack speed items.

Spell Costs give options and room for error, Attack Speed does not.

[next idol]

I think moreso overall allowing IMs to have the ability to make a roll static / not follow normal ranges allows them to make some designs they currently cant (to my knowledge)

If they actually want this? Idk lol

[late wasp]

yeah im ok with allowing attack speed bonuses having the option to be static on items not yet made, or any stat

but retroactively changing all attack speed bonuses is not the move

[inland jewel]

I'm certain this change would be very healthy for the game. Particularly due to the amount of items that have some attack speed bonus in Fruma. This would make balancing easier and reduce the cost of use.

[woven lake]

It would probably be fine if the cancelstack weapons had it bumped up to their max atkspd

[raven ridge]

afaik IMs hate this as much as we do

[raven ridge]

my issue is that missing few % on each roll adds up really quickly (much quicker than not perfect mana rolls)
if your build has 65% cost recduction perfectly and yours has 55% that's over 30% spell cost increase and therefore you start to lose mana significantly quicker than normally

okay cancelstack exists

cancelstack is hell with attack speed

tierstack doesn't need it as much but cancelstack is forced max rolls too

[inland jewel]

I am curious about something. Lets say this change is too go through, when would we expect to see changes and how would the come? Would this be much later past Fruma, in one big drop, or incremental changes?

[dusty socket]

on a technical level it would have to be done all at once

eta is impossible to guess

[tiny zinc]

If this were to change, every item would be changed at once

Maybe balance would be incremental but there are really not that many items that would be affected by this change so I think it’s just be all together

[tiny zinc]

almost to 100 likes!!!

[inland jewel]

I think this thread has a ton of precedence and with even more rolls coming to the game (ascension) this would be a great change coming along with Fruma

[scarlet arch]

I hate ascention rolls more gambling when its not needed. Its just retention seeking.

[strong coyote]

always "dark patterns" and "retention seeking" like come on.... you cannot possibly think that if 2. option wins, thats mainly because retention seeking

[scarlet arch]

No both are for retention seeking option 2 just has worse gambling.

[strong coyote]

option 1 is not guaranteed ascending, but the game needs mythic sink

[scarlet arch]

Im fine with that... tbey should just make it so you can inrcise the odds by sacrafisng multiple mythics

[tiny zinc]

Chat! Chat! The Hero Beta now has fixed attack speeds implemented! We did it Reddit!

[bleak dome]

Huzzah

[shy saffron]

Concrabulations

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/262010576295821312/1208863536650911764/debtrepayed.gif

[dusty socket]

this will drastically improve the cancelstack market 🔥

[crimson oxide]

oh?

[tiny zinc]

most items now have their maximum atk speed value set as the constant atk speed value

[crimson oxide]

nice

[half apex]

This will nuke my dawnbreaks im holding but id prefer eating the losses than suffering more in the future

[crimson oxide]

does the attack speed on dawnbreaks even matter at all?

unless you're looking for an overall roll

[bleak dome]

Cancel stack

[crimson oxide]

which is?

[bleak dome]

Dawnbreak trance

[crimson oxide]

why?

[tiny zinc]

to be able to make use of dawnbreak's raw main attack damage on super fast attack speed

[inland jewel]

Wait rlly????

[inland jewel]

LETS GO, W choice

[inland jewel]

Dw I spent 36 simulators rolling for 13 tier attack speed on trance

We can suffer these losses together and celebrate in our victory of helping other players.

[late wasp]

i still hate this revert!!!!

[strong coyote]

😭

[inland jewel]

Yes the pain is real

[strong coyote]

I bought it off of tm for cheap

still haven't used it once

[inland jewel]

Yeah... I saw it was for like 5 stacks for something

I would've bought it if I hadn't known about this change and had a trance myself

[strong coyote]

I bought this months ago

[inland jewel]

Oh

I saw one just like it on the TM

[fair basin]

Finally I can use these on trance

[inland jewel]

Wowza

[late wasp]

many people for this change own items which would benifit from the change... noticing...

[analog wadi]

good change i just wish they'd done it like a week ago before i spent 50stx ish simulating trance for max attack speed

[next idol]

it will be

the changelog wasn't posted for last night's patch i guess

[tiny zinc]

Changelogs are usually a day or two late

[queen seal]

rip tdrop trance arca