revert the 02/18/2025 immolation nerf

[green mist]

What is the intended playstyle for immolation? The item gives you 150 defense and agility but completely neuters your healing ability, and I think these two stats roughly neutralize each other - every other shaman player will take regen or sac shrine, which heal at least 400 hp/sec (the equivalent of 1.2k ehp/sec). Immo, on the other hand, gives you about 20 seconds of healing as ehp up front, but you can no longer heal besides meleeing enemies for ~600 lifesteal every 2 seconds. What this means in practice is that you can't actually tank that much, because taking one hit with no recovery ability essentially puts you on death's door for the rest of the fight, and even with LS you're only going to be healing enough to stop chip damage from finishing you off.

Build-wise, you are literally locked out of all forms of healing besides LS (which is highly inconsistent in most scenarios), and the item has the highest combined SP cost out of any mythic. It is also nearly impossible to build with, since almost all FA items are tank items that give HPR (which is actively hurtful on this weapon) instead of meaningful damage stats. This means that the only "viable" immolation builds are extremely item-limited rainbow slap builds that must build tons of LS, or titano "big mac" (without hpr) builds where you are forced to ignore the air damage on the weapon, and even when building fully towards health sustain you still have no real ability to meaningfully recover after you take 1 big hit.

I think that immo's current base dps is not high enough to justify using the weapon. I don't think maxed defensive SP is so impactful (and so much more impactful than the crippling downside of neutering your recovery ability) that the weapon should also receive below average base DPS, and returning immo back to its previous 1020 base dps would at least allow it to deal higher damage (without needing to create more FA items to support it).

also immo can't be used with acolyte at all so you can't support your team with vengeful spirit or ecall. this is intended (and I am fully on board with this aspect of the weapon) but immo (as a gimmick weapon) then needs to stand out on either summoner or ritualist, otherwise it just becomes a funny item that gets fully outclassed in every niche.

image of nerfed and proposed nerf reversal immo for reference

[tranquil thunder]

isn't this from when they lowered base damage for everything

[green mist]

it was not

[grim wren]

honestly i feel like reverting this nerf would not change immo’s usage by much, if at all

people weren’t/aren’t using immo because it cant heal. that’s such a huge part of the class

[green mist]

immo was the only mythic weapon to receive a nerf in that patch

[green mist]

I think immo needs much better damage FA armors to ever see much use

but the base dps nerf certainly didn't help

[grim wren]

also at the end of your post you compare immo to fantasia but i feel like those weapons are not very close together

[green mist]

immo and fantasia are both summoner weapons

[bleak inlet]

I believe their reasoning for it was because "base dps too high" compared to everything else

[grim wren]

yeah that too. fa armours dont support damage but that’s what immo wants to do.

i feel like immo’s issues are beyond what the weapon does

[bleak inlet]

but this being not a divzer situation I personally think it's okay to give immo more base

[fossil ice]

...what's a "divzer situation"...

[bleak inlet]

where divzer mogs everything else

[green mist]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CN0A6WWFHWHoJ26J8pZoZ2RY482CIUImO2PUKUK8Ja0HG7J73N2N2R2R2SY441TCTCS9S9i9i9m9I05KG2ZZ1440M009OOvNoRMvuV1e80nAWL1G001WYVYZYV601064A+7AA+V0n2EbT1q6SMY3EB12db2XpIi0oY268CEs9467xSYYk9XeihYQNYBzhUVxp320 fanta

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CNG4OaSOWnycuoOQec81Y0Za33Cct4N6JZp490V94169F9OCXCFAFAa9IW8eZfZXBXBXDXD1EH2YWEcE6k4k4s4s4u4982wOwOuIuIOJOJCJa0amWecHzb+fBlzv130 1020 base dps immo

[fossil ice]

Ok

[grim wren]

what is schaden doing there

[green mist]

what I was trying to say with the comparison to fanta is that a 1020 base dps immo is close enough in dps where it might edge out fanta's tiny use share slightly

[green mist]

ls (you can use september if you don't want the mID)

[uncut ravine]

"This weapon has an abysmally low usage rate"
we do not and have never balanced based on usage rates. this is a perception problem

"You are literally locked out of all forms of healing besides LS"
150/150 defensive SP makes you sorta invincible. that's kinda the point of the item

"It is also nearly impossible to build with, since almost all FA items are tank items that give HPR (which is actively hurtful on this weapon) instead of meaningful damage stats."
this is because FA items are tank items. there are also a shitton of F/A options and if you are expecting to get extreme damage on a weapon that maxes defensive SP that is not an objective issue i think

"To be clear, the 100 base DPS decrease was not that impactful (if no one was using the weapon to begin with, there is nobody to impact if it gets nerfed :/ )"
again we still dont balance on usage rates. this is just confirmation bias because the majority of endgame players who use wynnmain and are active in the community use almost exclusively meta

" I believe that if immolation returns to being the highest base dps relik, it will at least be sometimes worth using over fantasia, which would be a massive improvement."
having the highest base dps of any relik was exactly the problem with a relik that Maxes Your Defensive SP. thats exactly why this change happened in the first place

asking for more FA armor options at endgame is like entirely valid though imo

[old galleon]

@misty hill I'm making you into a rainbow armor

[green mist]

in a vacuum what is problematic about immo being the highest base dps relik that maxes your defensive sp

[uncut ravine]

additionally this whole "usage rates" rhetoric kinda falls apart when you look one thread down from this one and see people complaining about an ignis nerf from a year ago, which is a weapon apparently "noone uses"

[green mist]

the raw ehp number doesn't matter that much since shaman is still the squishiest class, and every other relik has access to constant healing

[uncut ravine]

what is the tradeoff in an item that gives you near infinite ehp and cracked base

[green mist]

not being able to heal lol

[uncut ravine]

you've just made the most boring mythic of all time

[topaz ledge]

or contagion

[uncut ravine]

1 arguably 2 shaman archetypes dont even use healing

also

150 defense

150 agility

[bleak inlet]

fyi the ignis thread below is about wanting the weapon to make sense in the first place not about its use rates

[uncut ravine]

anyway refer above

ciao

[grim wren]

(gonna be completely real, genuinely every reasonable shaman build has either sac shrine or regen)

[uncut ravine]

(i know regen just blows)

[green mist]

to me, immo exists in the same balance space as a weapon like divzer where it has incredibly strong stats that are balanced out by a crippling downside that can be somewhat mitigated if you're a skilled and knowledgeable player

[green mist]

regen is still 600 hp/sec on every other weapon

you can passively regain like at least 2k ehp per sec on every other weapon besides immo

[knotty edge]

Regen is like 400 🥀

[green mist]

like if you tank a massive hit and now you're on 25% hp instead of dying because you're using immo

[knotty edge]

On 4 totems

[grim wren]

u have bad heff tomes

[green mist]

you're still using a weapon that deals below average dps (despite everything 💀 )

[knotty edge]

I am basing off no tomes numbers

[green mist]

and you have no way to actively heal up in combat besides meleeing the enemy once to gain 600 hp every 2 seconds (or leaving the fight to drink a potion)

also immo literally cannot use acolyte is that not a pretty hefty downside

[topaz ledge]

almost 1000 hp sec with abso build

[green mist]

you are just not allowed to support your team if you use this weapon

[fossil ice]

Yk how there are those fableds, where I think assassin summons meteors, mages use aura, warriors use heal. I think immo is also such a weapon. Where shaman gets to experience gameplay where they can't heal(and can't get healed by others)

[knotty edge]

U can get like 4k with 100k dps 😂

[green mist]

idk I disagree that immo having maxed defensive sp is such an impactful stat that the weapon needs to be neutered everywhere else

[molten cosmos]

my immolation thought process was: "omg an actual good looking OFFENSIVE fire (and air) mythic--annndddd its trash in both damage (lack of good offensive F/A gear) and sustain due to its drawback"

[grim wren]

how is that not impactful lol

[knotty edge]

better than big mac

[topaz ledge]

100k dps? wdym, abso can reach higher dps

[knotty edge]

100k is aight with so much healing

[old galleon]

Cause ehp without recovery is pointless

[green mist]

its impactful but is it impactful enough to give it below average base dps

[fossil ice]

True

[molten cosmos]

its over 1 selv so its peak

[grim wren]

i suppose since you can’t really pot on immo

[bleak inlet]

I kinda disagree with this, there are weapons obviously either built or not built for certain archetypes
in immo's case, letting it go acolyte would be kinda broken (mega tank with heals and better damage than abso)

[green mist]

to me max defensive sp and complete negation of (almost) all healing are pretty much a net neutral trade and all of the mythic budget still needs to go somewhere

[grim wren]

just use life steal immo!

[knotty edge]

Me when I pot on immo and all my totems disappear 🥀

[topaz ledge]

wouldn't hpr off-hand relik work with immolation too?

[knotty edge]

-60 mana to replace them 🥀

[grim wren]

same issue as potting

[vagrant stream]

guys we cannot offhand on shaman

[green mist]

no I agree with this, but because it can't be used with acolyte it needs to be balanced in a way that makes it stand out on summoner and ritualist

if immo the gimmick weapon is below average in everything then it's just a dead weapon in your inventory lol

immo obviously becomes very good with a pocket healer but those don't really exist in wynn

[topaz ledge]

idk someone asked me a recipe for off-hand hpr for immo, i just developed but i rarely use off-hands, just off-hand LB/LQ

[fossil ice]

Guys, what if immo puppet bomber

[knotty edge]

Life steal 💡

[knotty edge]

Kinda mid 👎

also probably no sustain

[green mist]

life steal is still only 600 hp every 2 seconds

[bleak inlet]

ok yeah that's more clear to me
I believe it was hitting 400k pre-nerf (with good aspects) so the base dps nerf was somewhat reasonable but too harsh

especially considering most players use this as a budget build (and don't have good aspects)

[green mist]

keep in mind hadal can still hit like 800k post everything with the same aspects

400k is very good but it's not even close to topping the charts in terms of shaman dps (not that it should, to be clear, but I'm contextualizing immo's performance here)

[topaz ledge]

and you can still get eHP from weird builds and still reach +400k

[grim wren]

if you off hand on shaman your totems disappear so you have to stop doing literally everything just to have some hpr. might as well pot, and that has similar drawbacks too

[grim wren]

(this isnt realistic dps)

[topaz ledge]

yeah i know, but i only use hadal, abso and reso, thats why i rarelly use off-hand, seems weird that someone asked me thaat tbf

and the 3 of them have sustain

[bleak inlet]

sure the number is low but if you compare 400k to the rest of the builds in the game it really be overperforming for a tank weapon

[hallow sparrow]

and also like worse ehp than divzer lol

[grim wren]

shaman moment

[green mist]

immo 400k wasn't really "realistic" dps either I think pre nerf I was getting high 200k low 300k

post nerf I'm getting mid 200k

[topaz ledge]

is not tank if you cannot mitigate dmg for others, guardian does 100-150k dmg but it also mitigates dmg and offers taunt, immo cannot do that

[green mist]

what even is the intended playstyle for immo

you can take 1 big hit but you have no recovery ability so it's not a "skill issue" weapon in the way that abso is

[vagrant stream]

glass cannon but not glass and also not a cannon

[green mist]

you're pretty much just playing any other shaman mythic except your healing over time is given to you upfront in terms of ehp and you just manage the entire fight's worth of damage in 1 hp bar

[bleak inlet]

idk 😂 I just remember people doing 400k with immo and me barely able to reach 200k

right now it does mid 200k so completely reverting base probably is too much, a midpoint between the two is the best option imo (no pun intended)

[topaz ledge]

at least it would be good to lower %hpr just to make it compatible with boreal hpr + hpr tomes + other items

[bleak inlet]

meant tank as in like its fat ehp but you have a point there regardless

[green mist]

you tank one big hit and then you're cooked for the rest of the fight

if you're on 2500 hp then you're not going to be able to recover jack shit even with 1.2k ls

in practice you're just going to hover around 3-4k hp for the rest of the fight even if you start playing really conservatively

because the 800 hp per melee every 2 seconds is only really enough to break even against chip damage

[topaz ledge]

Lower SP to 50-50, increase base dps a little bit and decrease hpr, that way you could couple with boreal

and you don't get a ton of sp

[bleak inlet]

that's what the feedback should lean towards instead
and even then it's more of a question to CT of how did you want us to use immo in content and then the followup of "can it actually do that job well and realistically?"

[green mist]

good point let me edit the post to reflect that

[fossil ice]

I think thats intended?

[bleak inlet]

ye but it's so 🥀 seeing yourself slowly just die while doing less than acro dps

[fossil ice]

What even is the intended playstyle for _____

That can be said about alot of weapons

[bleak inlet]

ignis thread below us be like

[green mist]

ok I edited the post so that it says everything I've said in the replies

I guess I will also note that I think immo was much more "OP" in 1.20

back then immo had 140k+ ehp on literally every build you used with it

so even if the damage was horrible the defensive sp actually made you practically invincible so it was worth using

of course the "shaman meta" in 1.20 meant nothing because shaman was terrible back then, but even immo's golden era with flapis and heph sabatons builds it still didn't really encroach into the meta

I'm bringing up the use rate here to point out that immo has always been a gimmick weapon, and even back when 150 def/agi made you unkillable and it was paired with disastrously overpowered 65% spell damage accessories, it was still kept in check overall because it only did barely average amounts of damage

of course, def/agi were significantly nerfed with 2.0 so now immo is very much killable (it only takes about 2 big hits to kill you and it's not possible to tank the tcc sword slash) and it still does the same barely average amounts of damage as before

[hot harness]

I miss greed immo
until they add he

[storm jay]

immo would make more sense if defensive sp were as strong as they used to be

2.0 reduced ehp of 150/150 by more than half after all

so immo probably made a lot more sense when it was more than twice as tanky

[forest epoch]

immo CAN be used for aco though, you just need to do only specific low raw HP builds with extremely high HPR
and yes, the HPR is also cancelable with the power of things like Boreal

[knotty edge]

Or Ls

[forest epoch]

ls too but hpr is more reliable

[green mist]

you cannot play immo ls acolyte like it's not possible

you just can't melee stuff consistently enough to keep your health bar and feed blood into abilities

hpr immo acolyte is possible but at that point you're playing abso but with no benefits and no team heals

[misty hill]

Please do make me rainbow armour

Anyway what is this thread immo is fucking gas, I use it a whole bunch it doesn’t need any changes; the game just doesn’t have an inherent need for the ehp it provides that doesn’t mean it should be granted damage in return

[shrewd ore]

Is there a reason why you guys don’t use usage rates

[little plover]

isnt it cause like usage rates =/= actual power of an item. also bigmac/monster riftwalker/other REALLY easy to use builds would get nerfed immediately even though theyre incredibly mediocre at best

[grim wren]

because it doesnt say everything about the weapon/item

[little plover]

also we would be in genuine meta hell because every good thing will get nerfed. i know people say thats already happening but it would be so much worse

[shrewd ore]

im not saying balance purely off them but that message kinda seemed like they arent considered at all

I think its a pretty useful metric

[grim wren]

not really. builds get discovered and items see greater use because of it

[bleak inlet]

i dont speak for ct but using usage rates as a balancing point seems very difficult to do
like there's just going to be favor towards one playstyle/weapon or another so balancing around "usage rates" just doesn't make sense, plus their goals are never to make mythic use rates all the same %

[grim wren]

an item could have an INSANELY GOOD build that people just dont really know about

[shrewd ore]

I mean im mainly refering to weapons that get lower usage rates

[little plover]

I mean the entire thing is just youre just not fixing the issue youre just going off the outcome instead of actually figuring why its happening

[grim wren]

so am i

[shrewd ore]

Of course you would need to add context to it if you were looking at usage rates

[grim wren]

i just think its reasonable to not consider public perception very much if at all

this game is WAY too dynamic to properly do that

[shrewd ore]

I didnt say balance around them i said “use”

Like consider

[little plover]

also yeah wynn community band wagons a lot and doesnt really think for themselves when considering builds. which is fine i sometimes do the same

[bleak inlet]

yeah "use" them in balancing? that's what the original message you were responding to was saying unless im misinterpreting something

[shrewd ore]

Well that message talking like i meant base it around purely usage rates

Im saying they should play a part and that they can be very informative but like not purely just go off them

[chilly onyx]

call me back later to play immolation acolyte in nol again

[shrewd ore]

I mean especially for the lesser used mythics is this reallt a thing

Ofc theres other mythics like gaia that are cucked by no atree support but like

[little plover]

ok lol wtf insanely relevant

[grim wren]

every time i see a proper grim build i am always really surprised about how much it does

yet nobody uses it

[shrewd ore]

I dont think grim is like a low usage mythic ive seen it a good bit

[grim wren]

if you queue pfinder youll almost never see a grim

[shrewd ore]

I saw it a lot when smoke stack was a thing but like idrk

[old galleon]

What they say vs what they do is a big difference tho

[shrewd ore]

Also is that grim being good or is that trick being good

Not saying grim is dogshit cause its not its pretty good

[grim wren]

grim has been used super well on shade too, disregarding the rage knives bug

[green mist]

everyone's in a coma when it comes to sunstar potential

but I think immo is right about fairly rated by the community

[bleak inlet]

ritualist rework will bring sunstar supremacy back 🙏

[green mist]

fairly rated as in everyone knows it's not great even if you like to use it

[shrewd ore]

Dont know enough about shade to comment but i see your point

[little plover]

is cbomb grim viable currently? i havent heard that much buzz about cbomb changes

[shrewd ore]

I still think usage rate can still provide useful metrics

[grim wren]

no chance

[little plover]

😭 wasnt it a really big dps increase

[grim wren]

cbomb and viable are not words you can put together

[grim wren]

yep

[vagrant stream]

In fairness every grim build is the same sort by -cost spam and caesura and is only ever crazy strong when theres atree issues

[little plover]

grim is just super cool because rage abuse + chain rule makes building so easy

[grim wren]

its unique and strong enough to consider me impressed

[little plover]

also grim has that swagger

[green mist]

I think usage rate is at least a decent tool you can start from if you're trying to identify current balancing pitfalls

[bleak inlet]

I think it'd be better to say that low usage rate items can be worth taking a look at but they just aren't a revealing stat in of itself to use

essentially we don't want to use usage rates we want to consider things on a case by case basis
like immo: lower dps and really helps nobody
or ignis: major id and stats don't make sense with archer and everything else

[shrewd ore]

Basically yeah

[green mist]

like there is a reason people use big mac and conversely there is also a reason why people don't use gaia

[bleak inlet]

^ yeah what he's sayin

[green mist]

and if you have usage rate statistics you can see that to be true, objectively

which is then the starting point where you can talk about what exactly is causing people not to use gaia

[topaz ledge]

even with that, boreal need almost 100% of that ID and immo need almost 100% of that id to work + raw HPR

[shrewd ore]

Again i never said balance purely off of usage rates i was just asking why they werent really used

[forest epoch]

it can work though

the statement "immo doesn't work for aco" is false

[green mist]

to rephrase the original comment about usage rates in this post, I think immo's abysmally low usage rate is somewhat a result of its bad damage

[shrewd ore]

Yeah if you hate yourself

[green mist]

the entire niche of shaman tanks is just fully taken up by abso so there really is just no reason to use immo

[forest epoch]

lucky for me I don't and will never use that strat lol

[shrewd ore]

And want to subject yourself to brutal torture

[vagrant stream]

Also like how does the balance team not have tools to see usage rates thats actually wild

[topaz ledge]

this, is not that usage rate should be the reason to balance stuff, but in this case, is a consequence of the bad state of immo

[azure ore]

BIG MAC MONSTER IN SHAMBLES

[bleak inlet]

it was just never a priority so that's reasonable

[green mist]

yeah like the terrible usage rate is an indicator that 150 def/agi is not useful enough to justify immo's current downsides

[bleak inlet]

and inventory/items api isn't a thing either

[topaz ledge]

abso is not a tank weapon but a healer/support, bc shamman as a whole doesn't work as a tank

[shrewd ore]

Bigmac should be removed from existence 😁

[grizzled cedar]

tbh given how many people play wynncraft having a database to track every item that everyone uses and how often they do so would be a herculean feat

[topaz ledge]

the fact that healing scales always with hp makes imposible for other things to shine as a healing weapons

[green mist]

I guess also that bosses nowadays deal very high damage hits so having a big ehp number is less relevant since you still die to the oneshots

like there's just a number of factors that gradually chip away at immo's defensive viability even if you ignore the dps meta

[topaz ledge]

immo is also in a bad state since is rotating around tank design (FA) but without any kind of support from the archetypes of the class (AT) or equipment (MIDs and IDs)

[green mist]

you can't just sit there and eat infinite damage with your infinite ehp and slowly whittle bosses down because you can't heal at all and the bosses will actually kill you in seconds now

[vagrant stream]

Obv I know nothing about the backend of wynn but through api scraping you can do this for raids for every player already. Maybe items are a lil more complicated but in my head raids are storing 4 numbers and items are storing 9. Its a lot but definitely not out of the ballpark

[oblique crater]

see immo was always stupid to me because it's like ok your healing options are life steal which sucks or pots which are cringe

[topaz ledge]

Fire in shamman is almost always designed as healing, immo can¿t reach that because of -HE, Air is usually a movility designed for shamman, immo doesn't have anything to support that.

[shrewd ore]

Pots also like delete your totems

[grizzled cedar]

honestly i don't know enough about that sort of coding to know whether or not it'd be feasible
i'm generally opposed to balancing based on usage anyway for a handful of reasons, but having a database like that could def be helpful 'cause right now the best way to gauge whether or not people are using an item is just checking wynncord and wynncord is not always representative of the whole

[oblique crater]

well that's kind of the tradeoff, it's just not a very fun one

[green mist]

having no sustain isn't the end of the world as long as you can actually take infinite damage

[vagrant stream]

To clarify im not saying to only balance off usage rates but to not even consider them just doesn’t make sense

[green mist]

but they nerfed def and agi really hard in 2.0 so now you can't take any more damage than the average abso build

[shrewd ore]

Last part is exactly my point

[storm jay]

it's pretty common for items to change in usage significantly without balancing changes
so yeah being careful about balancing on usage is understandable
if anyone remembers the time that most people except a few top builders said slayer was dogshit, but it actually turned out to be good and people started using it several months later despite no real change in balance

[shrewd ore]

Also this

[grizzled cedar]

for sure. we do actually take usage rates into account in some cases, but sometimes it's difficult to gauge

[topaz ledge]

wynncord is not a good sampling site bc it usually doesn't cover the mayority of new players, casual players or non-english speakers

[green mist]

I actually remember this

[bleak inlet]

btw for clarification are you talking about measuring archetype usage (like wynn analytics)?

[grizzled cedar]

also "nerf things because a lot of people are using them" seems like a flawed modus operandi

[grizzled cedar]

(which is why we take a lot of other things into account)

[green mist]

sometimes the opposite will also happen

[storm jay]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/361194799744679947/952353735420543036/drusergif.gif?ex=65628908&is=65501408&hm=3a2d91f82afbdaf222053fdbe3fa3394d90782f33013cbb1a2d528125f6ce37f&

(ok that was 50% balancing changes too)

[green mist]

without any direct balance changes, an item like adrenaline can easily go from meta to unusable over time because of subtle changes in how the rest of the game is designed

[topaz ledge]

ppl said because slayer was good and most ppl gatekeept the item and builds

[cobalt nimbus]

tbf barely anyone plays shade now

[green mist]

and also as it gets powercrept out of existence by newer items (cough cough aleph null)

[shrewd ore]

I mean an item might not get changes but other items getting changes migjt make that item more favourable

Its not always cause people dont realize how good it is

[topaz ledge]

also this, ppl will look for alternatives

[green mist]

like I don't think it's necessarily as problematic as it would have been before for immo to be the highest base dps weapon AND the highest nominal ehp shaman mythic

[storm jay]

not always yeah
but sometimes the playerbase just takes a while to realize that something is good or bad

[topaz ledge]

which is why we need new items names when they get annouced

[green mist]

nominal ehp is just slowly losing value over time due to how the game is designed, even if we ignore the dps meta

[storm jay]

I used to advocate for more focus on effective healing rate

[grizzled cedar]

not a bad idea

[storm jay]

what does that mean?

[grim wren]

mostly a "class being very unfun" issure

[cobalt nimbus]

also even within shade its like not best for qol and not best for dmg

[grizzled cedar]

presumably changelog including "added a new 101-104 Fabled Boots (Platonic Ideal) to the loot pool"

just include the name of the item in the changelog

[topaz ledge]

when an item get announce, new players cannot identify immediatly, a lot of items from WE that were broken are unoticed by most players and a few that notice them will just gatekeep it

[storm jay]

oh yeah absolutely

I've been an advocate of this for a long time

[grizzled cedar]

honestly i have no clue why we had never done this before

[grim wren]

i'd imagine rage brings it up at least a bit no?

[grizzled cedar]

this is definitely something that should happen

[storm jay]

there was the concept that "it's more interesting for players to find it themselves"

[bleak inlet]

it's been a feedback for a while

[storm jay]

(I disagree, of course)

[topaz ledge]

yeah but honestly that could be coupled with a spoiler tag

[storm jay]

but that's what was brought up years back

[grizzled cedar]

i hadn't seen it before but i'm not very active in wynncord so

will look into it

[little plover]

PLEASE. if you can add stats too on it

[shrewd ore]

I also think new major ids should be listed too

[topaz ledge]

yeah

[shrewd ore]

Atleast what they do

[topaz ledge]

i agree, that would be helpful

[vagrant stream]

I mean honestly fully adding them to api would just be nice to do since its like 4 hours of mystery before they’re uploaded to wynnmain anyways

[cobalt nimbus]

i just dont think its worth it at all ngl outisde of maybe tcc

ur also raging on something thats harder to play than most other archs

[little plover]

did satsujin change kill shade that badly?

[topaz ledge]

yeah, and for ppl who are casual, new players or just don't connect much with the community would take less, my friends take days to notice some stuff

[cobalt nimbus]

idt it kills it it just feels kinda yucky tbh (and miserable if 2+ shades)

[vagrant stream]

I understand for like anni mythics cuz it took a while to get them all in beta but for a random level 63 rare boot it just feels weird

[cobalt nimbus]

tbh i think its more like u already have an archetype that relies on aspects that require hundreds of raids to get and it has a way higher floor (that has only gotten higher) and it has meh qol and bad in rooms

its upside is high single target dps but theres other things in the game that get that for like way less effort and also dont suck in rooms

[vagrant stream]

You forgot the doesn’t work in multiples and needs you to play with a ball to keep up with damage

[cobalt nimbus]

idt ball is necessary tbh unless ur party does a shit ton of dmg

[grim wren]

mhm

[cobalt nimbus]

but the setup was already considered a little bit yucky before (though if u had enough experience/knew what to do it was really fast) but now the setup is like very yucky

but oh well this is offtopic

[vagrant stream]

The full setup is like smoke double spin vanish spin stab stab right

4112133

[cobalt nimbus]

yea basically but instead of double stab after knives i spin a few times and stab like once and vanish will be reset by than and i have marks

[vagrant stream]

Oh sorry

4112113233

Its just like bmonk

[cobalt nimbus]

actually tna now with no balls is kinda gross

cause of all the phase intermissions

[hushed mantle]

they shd just remove the -hpr% on immo and make bigmac actually work on it

i dont see any reason not to

[crisp lake]

i think the -hpr% is fine but it could be a bit less punishing, but hey atleast its not old immo (it had -hp for some reason while only giving +60 sp instead of +150)

[vagrant stream]

At least u could heal urself with old immo lol

[crisp lake]

well, it healed 1 hp

1 hp totem ticks

[vagrant stream]

Did it? i thought the -wd didn’t make the healing worse

[crisp lake]

it did until 2.0 where it "broke" so it was a bug until they added HE% in late 2.0, it was always meant to not heal you

[crisp lake]

also nvm it gave +100 sp total but i think it was nerfed to 60 at some point, anyways

also im pretty sure the base hp roll was -2600 so like the hp loss was pretty abyssmal too

[fringe jay]

OG wind prison...

come back to me please

[crisp lake]

OG wynn come back to me please*

[faint pilot]

Totem blocking come back tobme

[alpine hornet]

Why bother with just pure ehp only when all you need is to avoid being oneshot and just passively heal/sac shrine to full by the time the next threatening attack arrives

This is the state of healing rn. While I think 150 def/agi let's you tank a lot more bullshit then it seems at first, the reality is you don't really need it when healing as shaman is as strong as it is right now, especially when said healing also helps your allies

And I say that as someone that actually does play Immolation, and like facetank a lot

[oblique crater]

can vouch, baj is an immo god

[alpine hornet]

The concept just doesn't really work, and pumping damage on Immolation won't fix it

[topaz ledge]

it should be nerfed to +50 sp total and get buffed the IDs, maybe lowering HPR or adding more dmg to compensate a hpr cancel

[topaz ledge]

pumping dmg into the weapon might fix it since investing on hpr cancel would be less impactfull on dps

[alpine hornet]

Oh yeah I tried hpr stuff with Boreal, I prefer lifesteal with Dawnbreak

HPR cancel is pretty neat for lootruns tho

But then you are doing shaman lootrun which isn't mage/warrior so e

[topaz ledge]

consider that a buff in dmg would benefit those boreal builds, meaning that less dmg difference between post buff with boreal and dawnbreak prebuff

just like warp hpr buff

[alpine hornet]

Would it benefit ? yes. Would it meaningfully change anything ? Not really lol you'll still about 0.1% shamans using immolation

[topaz ledge]

yes, that wouldn't make it op, but at least would add more value to the mythic

[alpine hornet]

And new items might lowkey change it, say if they add a great pair of FA damage boots

[topaz ledge]

and more options for building with it

[alpine hornet]

I'm not against the buff, but like eh

Still doesn't change the fundamental issue here

[topaz ledge]

im not sure that those FA dmg boots will likely come, both stats always comes with either:
-Huge sustain but low dmg (boreal)
-DMG but with huge drawbacks that usually are -ls or -hpr (which would be unviable with immo)

FA is not a thing for huge dmg without sustain drawbacks

[alpine hornet]

This is also somewhat of an indicator of the whole str/dex sp dump meta

Because Immo has to use 150 of it's sp into defensive stats

Meanwhile even tank/support weapons like Abso only need 115, and can actually take advantage of the solo strong fire items that have a higher req then 75

Like imagine if Cannonade could reasonably be used on Immolation

Yeah looking at fa boots for damage the best that has some damage is https://wynnbuilder.github.io/item/#Signal Flare

Which is very sad when the mythic boots are as strong as they are

[topaz ledge]

examples close to this are

EFA: Valhalla - has no dmg boost, only hpr and ls
Kickback - Has melee dmg boost, even if it were spell or dmg, it doesn't have any kind of sustain, so you need to get sustain from other sources

TWFA: Dragon dance - Has dmg boost and sp, but has - sustain

Rainbow: BoBS - dmg boost, no sustain
Ouroboros - sustain, but no dmg boost
Fluorescence - Sustain, no dmg

FA: Cinnabar - High sustain, negative dmg

[alpine hornet]

Again this might change with Fruma adding a bajillion items

We'll see

[topaz ledge]

even with a bajillion items, items rarelly get introduced outside of that design philosophy

even when you apply as IM they ask you to design items, and there you have to follow that design

[crisp lake]

as someone whos also a immo player for shaman (its my favorite shaman mythic too and always has been since it was added, i have shiny one too 😊 ) my favorite thing was to do acolyte and then have insane hpr (about 2k) and a offhand to get full bp on, however a few nerfs were made that didnt even target immo specificly, but hit it as a side-effect, and practically ruined the playstyle, now its not really doable sadly lol... also when immo released (and also for a long time), the gimmick was to be "high agi/def weapon but no healing, so you also deal real high dps" but then they nerfed it in 2.1 to deal less than sunstar anyways, and sunstar can heal, sure it has some -he% and its thunder so not FA, but like, it sometimes feels like the newer IMs just pretend the original intention never existed and completely change it and then its just worse, cause like others said, the main appeal for every other shaman mythic (except maybe toxo, but even toxo to some degree) is that you can also heal and support your teammates, but you cannot do that on immo, so its like the most selfish relik ever but it doesnt even benefit from the original intention of high damage anymore lol

[alpine hornet]

That moment when hyper damage meta

[crisp lake]

real ones remember when immo base was over 1k

[alpine hornet]

If you aren't hyper damage, you better help said hyper damage, and Immolation can't really play the archetype that does that which is Acolyte unless you do some jank stuff

[crisp lake]

immo: 930
sstar: 996
(prepowder)

they used to be about on par, but immo was slightly higher (but lower post powder)
which was fair cause you literally cant heal you or your allies, youre effectively playing semi ironman 😭

[alpine hornet]

it's like a solo content weapon when solo content is mostly designed to be done with a toothnail and some paper

[crisp lake]

also these people need to take into account that shaman has the lowest base resistance, and SURE when it came out archetypes werent a thing so you couldnt use like fanatic mask for more base res like you can now, but i dont think thats a valid excuse to say "yeah so this weapon will just not follow its original intent whatsoever lol lmao"

istg 2.0 ruined everything and 2.1 redirected intentions of the game in many ways that wasnt meant to be, yes you can change how you want your game to play as you update it over the years, but changing important items identities .... uhhh

[alpine hornet]

Also Shiny Immo gang

(Water damage powder for ele def abuse against NOL)

[crisp lake]

unfortunately i bought my shiny immo just a bit before they made my prefered playstyle borderline unplayable so i havent used it much, and my original one is a bit better iirc but its also mobs killed

rolled 4 times btw 🥀
my luck is so

[green mist]

I fully agree, I'm just suggesting this because it's a relatively uninvolved change for CT to make and it wouldn't hurt for immo to deal more damage

[wild glade]

Why does immo need more damage? It's a weapon that allows you to be very tanky while still doing decent dps

If you get low, just suck it up and drink a couple pots

It's not like losing your totems kills you

CT probably balances stuff with hp pots in mind tbh

[sinful nexus]

swapping off your relik causes you to lose all totems which is a huge damage loss

if that is their idea wouldn't they make totems not disappear on swapping off?

[wild glade]

Fallen swaps off it's corrupted status and then loses ALL the damage

[sinful nexus]

fallen has benefit of dmg

[wild glade]

There's also a 5sec cd too

[wild glade]

No that's only on some builds that run non fire

I'm gonna be comparing similar weapons to immo here

Apoc fallen hmelee hits about 200k dps, and has around 60k ehp

It's very similar to immo in that you don't have healing while holding the weapon at all

But then you can swap out to heal with iblood, at the cost of losing ur corrupted and dealing bad dmg for 5sec

[sinful nexus]

how is that a good comparison at all when it has 1300ls built in?

[wild glade]

No

You are in corrupted, you can't even heal with ls

Infact apoc ls is outclassed by rots mID heal

[sinful nexus]

afaik there is no other weapon that nullifies healing with the only benefit being some FA skill points? Most other weapons are effectively tankier because they have healing and already high ehp (like any ETF or rainbow weapon absolution, fanta, etc)

[wild glade]

Apoc hmelee has to stand rather close to the enemy to deal damage, and it has a lot less ehp and similar dps compared to immo

[sinful nexus]

those weapons also deal significantly more dmg

[wild glade]

No, because of immo's high base DPS, compared to apoc it can get away with running FA and still do around the same amount of dps

[wild glade]

Healing is not needed when you have pots, even tho it reduces damage when your totem disappears , compared to other classes it's the same

[sinful nexus]

the other classes just get free built in healing on their weapons (epoch divzer apoc etc have 1k+ ls) as well as high base resistance (shaman has 60% base and loses 20% with lunatic compared to warrior being 100-110)

[wild glade]

You see, because of immo's high tankiness, it shouldn't need to use many pots

Using pots doesn't mean it's bad

[wild glade]

Like i said, apoc ls is pretty mid, outclassed by rots

Esp because the only time you are healing is outside of corrupted

[sinful nexus]

and fallen just free full heals when they leave corrupted

[wild glade]

And don't compare immo to weapons that aren't fire

[wild glade]

Yes, but like i said, because immo it tankier, is doesn't need to heal that much

[sinful nexus]

the other fire items are all HPR (which immo has negative of)

[wild glade]

It's unique in that way, hpr and shaman heal nodes aren't the only way to heal

[sinful nexus]

i think the main issue is FA dont work together causing it to be less tanky than it seems also

[wild glade]

Still tankier than a lot of similar damage builds

[sinful nexus]

Abso is tankier and does more dmg

[wild glade]

Yes abso is better than immo in healing for ehp, however immo is a different purpose

Immo is meant to take hits without healing a lot while doing damage

[sinful nexus]

I lowkey cant even see how you are arguing against this? Remember back to the point when immo had some base dps it was still mediocre...

[wild glade]

It still has good dps?

200k is very very good for how tanky it is

I think you should compare summoner to summoner, not to other archetypes

[sinful nexus]

🤣 https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CN0X6G5G4c0XQUTUSG05mUmLEcqme7TWVkuqzhUhxp360

Wynnbuilder build:
Brainwash
Cannonade
Fire Sanctuary
Crusade Sabatons
Downfall
Intensity
Enmity
Simulacrum
Absolution []

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CN0m-sr7BWuztk3cXNd5Gi0Y2AiAZVSxbRqZEmFNSw-Llrzv540

Wynnbuilder build:
Greatbird Eyrie
Etiolation
Perch of the Shrouded Sun
Boots of Blue Stone
Olive
Olive
Prowess
Tenuto
Immolation [a6t6t6]

[oblique crater]

this is a terrible solution that is far too common

[sinful nexus]

take regen and still gap

[oblique crater]

gg

[wild glade]

I dont think increasing dps is the right move here tho? LIke reducing sp reqs is a far better way to balance this

[sinful nexus]

I completely agree with that. Giving immo -5 or -10 sp req would be game changing and bigger than reverting base dps

[crisp lake]

well they also have bloodlust so when they swap off they do like 500k damage for free

[fringe jay]

and it heals a shit ton in the process??

[alpine hornet]

On top of what the others said, you usually do it when you have literally no health left to use for bloodpact on most builds, AKA when your burst is over

Like it's literally just a faster way of cancelling the corrupt then Shift-Warscream

[alpine hornet]

This just shows that mono fire is better then FA really, I mean Crabs/Fire Sanc/Cannonade, you aren't meeting that with Immo's reqs

Not without sac'ing something else

You'd have to do some serious buffing with the current items to make it match that abso build lol

[sinful nexus]

yea the item options are better and having to drop an extra 35SP into FA compared to abso is devastating for your dmg (ET is op)

[alpine hornet]

(Also Absolution is kinda disgusting as an item)

Free totem cost, big mr, not the worst damage, and insane healing

[sinful nexus]

yea and they overstat mono F items and fully neglect FA🤣

[alpine hornet]

Abso gets to keep it's fire damage% but ignis doesn't BTW

[sinful nexus]

didnt lament lose half of its HE bc it was healing too much also

[alpine hornet]

Yup

[sinful nexus]

yea honestly would be nice to see an abso nerf as well

[crisp lake]

It was nerfed already to be honest (max used to be 130%) but yeah it should be

[grave pumice]

texilated lost a bet

[humble brook]

Well, is Immolation ever existed? I don’t ever know it is a Mythic LMAO, just keep nerf, I don’t care you don’t care we don’t care. Nobody Car

Maybe just delete.

Delete can solve problem that the post related with immolation getting posted.

[fringe jay]

im not saying we should balance around usage rates but anyone taking a glance at the stats could immediately tell there is something wrong with the item

saying we're all wrong cuz wynnmain only runs meta is inaccurate, we have the stats and it is rarely used. its not a wynnmain etwslop meta thing

[humble brook]

So what caused this item having so Low Usage. That is a good question.

[native flame]

Im not saying this in the context of Immolation (as in im saying htis as a standalone, I dont know enough about Immo) but usage is not a good metric to decide if its good or not btw

[fringe jay]

why not?

[humble brook]

Why not?

[alpine hornet]

Time to nerf morph I guess

[native flame]

Because there are factors as simple as "I do not like it", "I don't want to play deep Defense Agility", "I don't want to play the build that is used for this", and depending on how the metrics are gathered (if it is overall usage or per class) "I don't want to play this class", as well as literally just not owning it or being interested

Again, think more outside the context of the item

Like if there is a really cool awesome fun build I'm used to and enjoy, this would itself bring down the "usage rate"

Like if I don't enjoy defensive gameplay, I'm not using Guardian

[fringe jay]

if 99% of the playerbase is not engaging with the item, I think the issue goes beyond preference

[fringe jay]

"im not saying we should balance around usage rates" first sentence please read

[native flame]

I do agree that there IS a point at looking at it btw, I'm just saying it shouldn't be as big as people make it out to be

[native flame]

I've actually read the last like 200 messages, I will not respond further if all you are going to do is tell me I can't read, have a good one

[fringe jay]

telling people to reread their messages is a CT classic, I cant do the same? I thought i was pretty clear with what I said

there is correlation between usage rates and how good/bad an item is

but obviously no that shouldn't be the sole reason it gets a change

but it is thoughtless to disregard it

[signal gyro]

CT doesn’t play this game, maybe save your energy.

[fringe jay]

just because warp and morph are used a ton doesnt mean they need a nerf. but if a mythic is sitting at 0% play rate in raids there is an issue that needs addressing

with how few endgame weapons there are it should be a priority to make them all interesting, worth using, and functional

and for the record i was not insinuating that you cant read, just that your response seemed to misrepresent my message

[humble brook]

How Content team able to make tons of Mythic Item but only a few of them worth to be used by players.

[fossil ice]

That is not true

[fossil ice]

The Mythics were made a long time ago when the game was drastically different

[fringe jay]

the newest ones were anni mythics soo....

how are those weapons holding up rn?

[humble brook]

So? You wanna say they still can’t fix those Mythics since they are all ancient made?

[uncut ravine]

great thread guys 10/10

[hot harness]

Apparently we should nerf hero again

[real dirge]

This thread as a whole has been a very entertaining and succinct encapsulation of the relationship between CT and the player base

[fringe jay]

https://tenor.com/view/drink-drunk-leo-leonardo-di-caprio-cheers-gif-10195246

[green mist]

even these alternative explanations can still be insightful though

if 99% of the playerbase doesn't like immo's playstyle and avoids it like the plague, even if the item is fairly balanced, that points to an overarching devaulation of defensive sp

or the fact that a weapon like immo is no longer as good at tanking as it should be

usage rate statistics aren't just wynnmain etw sloppers, it's a pretty decent sample of the raiding playerbase and even casual players just don't use immo despite how cheap and accessible it is

like if x is the reason for why a weapon is drastically underused, then there is probably an underlying problem y that is worth looking into

the immo use metrics I mentioned at the start of this post are also only for shaman and abso has over 1/5th of the shaman mythic use rate share I think

so it's not just that people hate tanky playstyles or people hate using shaman

the two (three, if you count reso) tankiest shaman weapons make up like probably over 60% of the use share

[native flame]

I agree and never said you shouldn't ever look at use rates, I am just saying low use rate does not mean necessarily its terrible and unusable.

Its just not a great metric, not a useless metric

[topaz ledge]

is a great metric when coupled with other metrics tho

[native flame]

Never said it wasnt

[topaz ledge]

yeah, i know, thats why i said that

Usage rate is an excelent tool for reviewing playstyles/builds/weapons in most games when coupled with other stuff, for example, usage rate along with winrate is usually the metric of balance for LoL in all MMR levels, at specific level you need to pick samples of low and high MMR players and then you need to review it on competitive

wynn doesn't have PvP balance, so is more simple, you can review completions on raids, usage rates and other metrics to add balances changes like buffs of immo, immo doesn't add value to other stuff like completion records or anything else.

[real dirge]

“I said that i placed water in a pot and left it over a high flame, i never said that i boiled water”

[native flame]

I said that just looking at the usage rate alone is bad. I never said you should never ever consider any data that involves usage metrics and the stat is useless.

[exotic bobcat]

just saw this thread

I use immo. I use it a lot. Immo is my favorite weapon in this game. I don't think it needs the base damage back honestly.

I DO think that there needs to be fa damage support. The only real viable fire/air damage comes from really boring rainbow slap. Honestly like an -int pbomber item and a few fa centric items that don't help hpr/tanking abilities would go a long way to making the weapon more fun to build for. slapping rainbow sanc or PeltLight crafteds is SO boring but its the best damage you get for immo

[green mist]

I don't think immo getting its base damage back is going to meaningfully impact its place in the meta

but I do think that it'll make it slightly more bearable to use

especially since creating new items for this specific niche will probably take years

[fringe jay]

it should get a new id imo

theres just too many downsides to using immo