#Survivability Stat Creep Undermines Combat Skill - Rebalance Defense/HP Values

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

sleek gull
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That exists?

humble lava
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dps meaning guys whos job it is to kill stuff, tank meaning guys whos job it is to draw aggro, tank damage, and support heals people and gives buffs
obviously you can go deeper but these are the general trifecta

sleek gull
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I look at builds in this conversation from an individualistic perspective

It should not be directly designed around having a team of people as that requires coordination

Individually you should be able to comfortably clear content at an "okay" and understandable pace

stray plover
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It’s so over nexstargaze is in the thread

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Free, actually!

sleek gull
humble lava
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coordination bad i agree like like you cannot force team play it just. happens.

stray plover
humble lava
stray plover
stray plover
humble lava
stray plover
humble lava
stray plover
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Not a bad idea actually

Ws Divzer bolt (dodge & dps)
Burger (tank & tank)
Hadal puppet bomber (glass & heal + dps)

sleek gull
humble lava
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and no, raid elo wouldn't magically fix this

sleek gull
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Of course not

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But don't tell me I have to play a build that "sucks" or a build I'm not going to comfortably clear a raid with as the solution

stray plover
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Burger is great build in a team setting due to giving radiance + provoke

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Lament lightbender still does 400k which isn’t bad at all

sleek gull
grand raft
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what is dedicated dodge

quick jolt
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hero

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!

young mountain
quick jolt
grand raft
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beetown you are my hero

sleek gull
stray plover
grand raft
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what is a dodge archetype

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are we just not dodging any attacks on any other role

stray plover
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I think he just means walkspeed builds

quick jolt
trim rivet
young mountain
stray plover
grand raft
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ngl i usually like to dodge attacks when i play etw it’s not super helpful when i tank a hit

young mountain
stray plover
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The importance of paladin is thus displayed here

grand raft
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i’m ngl i do think it’s reasonable to expect to carry pfinder players and entirely unreasonable to expect that they are magically good

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if you don’t want that don’t pfind or at least find a duo

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it’s like queuing any game ever you literally cannot and should not expect them to be rank 1 smurf carrying you

young mountain
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i only raid with builds that i know i'm capable of soloing with

quick jolt
grand raft
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i pfind because i enjoy the solo experience its kinda fun

sleek gull
quick jolt
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Ermm

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Rainbow slop is not real rainbow

sleek gull
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And even then, both have bad damage decent defenses, and questionable walk speed

quick jolt
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freedom 🤑

grand raft
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i’m ngl 99% of the time it is not your build that is holding you back

quick jolt
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W ws
W damage
w sustain
Ok ehp

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Singu is cool too

stray plover
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Class building morph is the most awesome thing ever

grand raft
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like the vast majority of builds with a little logic put into them can solo bosses

quick jolt
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collapse is kinda bad

stray plover
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Pandemonium! Satellite! Rsanc! Aura of Element!

grand raft
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don’t really ask why we were in that position

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twas not my brightest idea

young mountain
quick jolt
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Collapse is still bad 🥀

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it’s cool but not good

grand raft
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it’s true but it’s not so bad you can’t like do anything with it

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ppl just like to blame their builds too much pmo

quick jolt
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trying to build cost sustain on rainbow pmo

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Ts does not exist

grand raft
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the humble blood pact

quick jolt
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we will not fallen slop in this household

grand raft
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no child of mine will be a fallen player

young mountain
grand raft
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deglove the son

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disown the daughter

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error205, That message was wholly inappropriate and off topic.

young mountain
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please do not contact the moderation team

sleek gull
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I still think it would be a meaningful discussion to actually have a default middle-of-the-road build for all 3 meta types of builds

The raid bosses, while designed for groups, have a clear preference of these types of players and instead of one that's in-between, you either do no damage and can't die, do a lot of damage and die in <5 hits, or just have a ridiculous amount of walk speed.

quick jolt
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1 sec twin

grand raft
sleek gull
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I want to understand why the sentiment is so confusing

grand raft
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the game is not this black and white

tribal ruin
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if u can tank like 5 consecutive hits while doing good damage thats pretty middle of the road

grand raft
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it’s not rock paper scissors 😭 what are we doing dawg

wispy bronze
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To be fair, aco is more of dps premium than healer anyway

grand raft
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also <5 hits is like not glass at all

tribal ruin
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^

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by like the 2nd/3rd hit you shouldve just healed urself tbh

grand raft
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most builds that i would consider glassy are like 1 hit from boss and 2-3 from room mobs

tribal ruin
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idk why u act like middle of the road builds dont exist when its definitely possible to build a reasonable emount of ehp to not instantly explode while also doing decent damage

wispy bronze
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Pbomber...

tribal ruin
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it makes me wonder how much ehp you would consider "middle of the road"

tribal ruin
wispy bronze
sleek gull
wispy bronze
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Have you considered get good

grand raft
tribal ruin
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ok well isnt that just a you issue atp

grand raft
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if you’re using builds that are recommended by the community (especially sugvon guides) it’s not some prank pulled on you to get you to play nonfunctional builds

wispy bronze
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Like you're the only person I have said get good unironically

grand raft
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puppet bomber is like especially foolproof

tribal ruin
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what you would consider a "middle of the road build" probably skews way more into survivability

stray plover
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I believe they think cosmic foundations is middle of the road

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Cosmic foundations has 50k ehp on shaman and like 1k eledefs iirc

tribal ruin
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😭

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and if u need that much more ehp compared to the avg player to survive than of course its not gonna do as much damage?

wispy bronze
tribal ruin
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theres plenty of ehp buffs too in raids u can just like grab those too

quick jolt
wispy bronze
quick jolt
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fallen itself is aight

wispy bronze
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Whew

grand raft
wispy bronze
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LMAO

quick jolt
hexed forge
quick jolt
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we only use -100% ws flipped elytra here

stray plover
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Statue ma_happy

sleek gull
wispy bronze
tribal ruin
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u get 80 ws for free in awakened

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and than add up to 16% from tomes

quick jolt
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100 with aspects 👽

wispy bronze
quick jolt
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plus coward chant

wispy bronze
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I was gonna Damn if only something in a ritualist tree that can provide tremendous speed boost

tribal ruin
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like how much ws do u need if that is considred poor 😭

wispy bronze
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Exactly

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Like there's people out there playing morph and there's nex who thinks 80% ws is poor

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Atp Idk which is worse

humble lava
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I lootrun with negative ws im pretty sure you'll be fine

quick jolt
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109% ws conv 🤯 :3

wispy bronze
quick jolt
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surely this with mantles is enough for our good fellow

grand raft
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it’s like not enough to kite greg but idk pbomb kinda needs walk speed scrolls

quick jolt
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oh and also big mac can get 120 ws

grand raft
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but also we are in bolt meta sack walk speed while you can

quick jolt
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with enough gumption

grand raft
wispy bronze
tribal ruin
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so if
100 ws
400k? dps
on demand healing
and like 20k ehp

Isnt considered middle of the road for you what is nex

wispy bronze
tribal ruin
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i think pbomb with aspects is like somewhere between 350 - 400

wispy bronze
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I thought it was like 300k lol

tribal ruin
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and also no negative def/agi so u can take ehp buffs too

quick jolt
wispy bronze
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Ye I know that

sleek gull
quick jolt
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op!

wispy bronze
tribal ruin
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so thats a you problem not a build problem

image.png
wispy bronze
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Also your issue

humble lava
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its kinda like how I dont like warp

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but a lot of people do
so I just dont play warp and play something else

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or like how I dont like more glassy builds, so I tend to go for high ehp builds and being ok with lower dps

onyx peak
dawn solar
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You’re getting something drastically wrong here. No, Eden blessed guards aren’t stronger than chaos woven, they’re different. And people in this server have, since 2.0, historically exclusively cared about damage in serious builds

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The claim that a WFA item, belonging to the currently worst archetype is stronger than a Meta ETW item that easily rivals crafteds is outlandish

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Also with how dead simple Wynn’s bosses are, aside from maybe Anni you really need no practice to stay alive on damage builds, especially with stuff that has insane sustain like
-Divzer
-Fallen
-Acolyte

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I’m sorry I wanted to be genuinely discuss based on my experiences but like, skill issue? Alright feel free to feedback mute me now.

young mountain
dawn solar
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:(

wispy crypt
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True

wintry heath
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"full damage burger" so 50k?

wispy crypt
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Its acc so dumb that you can do that

wispy crypt
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Defenses definitely to be hit

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If were being honest everything needs to be hit

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I mean you could

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If they nerfed walk speed some of the bosses would need to be less ws reliant

wispy crypt
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With paladin i think they should give up tryna make it a pure tanking typa class and just make it you can tank more hits you can support and deal respectable damage but your not invincible

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Maybe slap some cc when cci gets changed

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Pure Tanking will never work unless theu changed so much abt the game

craggy vigil
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I think potions and healing should be nerfed, health regen and lifesteal should be buffed

potent star
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Hpr is ridiculously strong if you build for it so I think it's more of "hpr should be more plentiful" rather than it deserving any kind of buff

craggy vigil
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well yeah I reckon it doesnt need a buff on the high end

wintry heath
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hpr sucks it's the fact the mythic helmet tito and firebird exist

craggy vigil
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that's also true

wintry heath
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lowkey bpact should be only for bash

wispy crypt
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Primarily hpr and ls becoming less aids to build

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But potions eventually

craggy vigil
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I still think they should be relatively hard to build on like ETW, but I think hpr and ls should replace pots as the primary source of self sustain, I just think it'd be far healthier

stark siren
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I think at one point I mentioned the idea of not reducing the amount healed by potions but instead just making them heal slower

wispy crypt
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Honestly i was just thinking a longer cooldown kinda like a last resort typa thing

stark siren
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like. i can never remember offhand whether they heal over 3 or 5 seconds but i wanna say its 3 seconds

wispy crypt
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I mean i dont think it should have like defensive stat build level healing

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But it should have decent healing from ls or hpr

craggy vigil
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because it's the glass cannon high risk high reward archetype, you're foregoing defenses and utility for pure damage

wispy crypt
wispy crypt
craggy vigil
wispy crypt
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Honestly if they did a lot of this tho theyd get crazy backlash

wispy crypt
craggy vigil
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yeah but the community doesnt always know what's good for the game

wispy crypt
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Hpr and ls dont have anything to do with taking hits compared to ws

wintry heath
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honestly defence just sucks compared to walk speed

wispy crypt
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Their mainly for chip if were being honest if your playing etw a lot of the time your getting 1-2 shot

craggy vigil
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they have to do with recovery which is a defensive aspect

wispy crypt
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Sure but it has no impact on it being a glass cannon

stark siren
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increasing that to 5 seconds, or 6 seconds, or maybe if we wanna go extreme with it 10 seconds, would definitively hit potions very hard

DISCLAIMER. THIS IS BRAINSTORMING. THIS HAS NOT BEEN DECIDED ON IN THE TEAM.

wispy crypt
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Your still a glass cannon regardless of heals

wispy crypt
wispy crypt
stark siren
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like, itd be a double whammy cause not only are you restoring less health over time you also cant drink potions til one finishes, so thats like, double loss

wintry heath
wispy crypt
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It just depends on the person however i do not beelive thats not what the ct wants

craggy vigil
wispy crypt
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Maybe they do idk but from what ive seen it doesnt feel like that

stark siren
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ik potions also heal gradually. i think the healing is split into like nine chunks where you get 1/9th of the stated HP value three times a second for three seconds, though i could have those numbers off

wispy crypt
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Isnt it 1500 every second for max pot

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I might be lying idk

hazy cove
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I wanna say it gives u 3 hits of 1500

stark siren
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yeah cause max level potions heal 4500 hp

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but ik it isnt just three hits

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for sure it isnt

hazy cove
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I could be wrong tho the only time i pot is when the boss doesn’t let me dps

stark siren
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easy to test though

wispy crypt
stark siren
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just unequip your armor, put it back on, then drink a potion and see

keen salmon
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fun fact crafted potions heal 10k

pseudo dawn
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each tier instead of healing much more, it heals for more time, making them intuitive for new players and not something to abuse in raids

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also this would add utility as an off-hand thing since they would last longer, adding the chance of being useful for all roles

wintry heath
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you don't abuse healing pots in raids, it's more so healing from lightbender or acro that is the issue

pseudo dawn
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is more like abusing them as a new player on all content

wintry heath
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having healing potions over a longer duration is actually a buff for a lot of classes due to effects being removed on offhand

pseudo dawn
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and is part of the issue with healer, also i proposed a LB rework that redistributed their healing, nerfing base healing and adding something else, im working on a aco healing rework too

wintry heath
pseudo dawn
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and fast healing which is aco

wintry heath
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That feels like unneeded bloat

pseudo dawn
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explain yourself

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also LB rework with a nerf of base healing got positive feedback

wintry heath
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so currently there's 20 potions as you level up - making that number 60 would just be too much for the small amount of change it gives

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there's already unique potions

pseudo dawn
stark siren
pseudo dawn
stark siren
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okay well that isn't just healing for longer, that's also healing for more. unless I misread that's different from wht you said

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like, it's doing both

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so I got a bit confused there

pseudo dawn
stark siren
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yeah that's different from how you pitched it just now when you pinged me the first time

pseudo dawn
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it is, the overall healing remains the same, it last longer and are intuitive for new players

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using one potion will heal the same in more time if not more

stark siren
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I get where you're coming from on adjusting the time but I think having the time to heal be consistent would be a bit easier to grasp and consistent, if we decided to increase the amount of time potions took to heal

pseudo dawn
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1-2 for the ppl doing one mistake on the raid

stark siren
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I don't see how that has anything to do with keeping the time consistent.

pseudo dawn
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and 29-30 from ppl who uses usually use classes that doesn't have healing (with some exception) or low skilled players

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they aren't a healthy way of healing (like most healing on wynn) since is not intuitive and using them just makes the average and low skilled player (which is the mayority) use them constantly in little time without learning proper hp managment or dodging attacks by learning about them (in the case of new AI mobs)

stark siren
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...okay you're kinda losing me there

pseudo dawn
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and the high skilled players just use them as a life saver because all healing from all classes comes from the player, so going back to a healer is kinda pointless when you have potions,

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instead, potions should be tools that saves you at the cost of focusing on dodging while you heal instead of focusing on killing the enemy, making more effective tools to lower dps of high skilled glass builds (which is the meta), potentially increasing the utility of Healers/tanks with the introduction of more complex mechanics (since tank only has like 2 mechanics tied to it) and teaching how to dodge to low skilled players since they won't be able to survive with potions unless they get away from dmg

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in most games, potions works in 2 ways, they either do that effect or directly gives you a debuff, for example a potion sickness or mana sickness where they lower a stat to make them more intuitive, i went with the first direction since is less impactful for most roles

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if anything, the value could be raised or changed, i also think that healing efficiency with that rework could impact potions but i didn't want to introduce that interaction bc is just a personal thing and it has some issues

wintry heath
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what..

craggy vigil
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I think pots should be an extremely limited sizeable burst heal tbh

sleek gull
humble lava
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NEX NO DON'T REPLY

sleek gull
# humble lava NEX NO DON'T REPLY

My experience with Lightbender is just doing things for other people and being unable to do it myself

It's not been a fun experience, especially when I tried to be a healer for an LI party, ate shit, and couldn't solo it to catch up with the party

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Wasn't light bender supposed to have okay DPS and survivability?

humble lava
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to put it lightly
all the healing in the world can't save you if you're in a bad position and get swarmed/ambushed

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example: this image

2025-12-19_07.49.38.png
sleek gull
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I tried to kill mummy board in melee range and it arrow stormed me

humble lava
sleek gull
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Considering Sugo's lament doesn't build walk speed

And my mana drains like crazy trying to heal and rely on mana steal

Positioning shouldn't be my worry with access to a strong heal spell

humble lava
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well if the enemy deals damage faster than you can heal you'll still die

sleek gull
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But that's just me, I have the reaction speed of a sloth more often than not

humble lava
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sugo doesn't build ws because he expects that you can teleport away

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(this build/tree i made isn't optimal, just using it as an example

wintry heath
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lightbender has more dps than arcanist right now

humble lava
wintry heath
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I wish I was lying

humble lava
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is this snakespam

wintry heath
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no

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fatal lightbender v fatal arcanist

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there's been so many arcanist nerfs that it feels like someone has a personal vendetta against it

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why is it bold

humble lava
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so we're talking a build like this? (i don't use fatal)

wintry heath
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no..

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eh it's different per architype

humble lava
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how would you buff arcanist

wintry heath
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not nerf it

pseudo dawn
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mix and match of them if you want an inbetween

humble lava
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i am not sure the sp economy can afford it

pseudo dawn
humble lava
pseudo dawn
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yeah

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worst dps and less eHP but higher sustain

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you can change 1 olive only if you want an inbetween

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also why do ppl still play atlas for sustain on a lament build?

humble lava
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incredibly bad decisions here

pseudo dawn
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like there is no point in losing DPS with it just for mana steal when you can easily get mana regen since you don't spam a lot of stuff

wintry heath
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ms is just better mr

pseudo dawn
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even with snake spam, there is no point on reducing your dps in that way, most of your dps will come from ophanim the closer you are to the enemy

pseudo dawn
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but if they are trying to do snake spam, then you don't even need a lot of ms

wintry heath
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what

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sorry I'm not a lightbender main I don't know how to optimise low cps

pseudo dawn
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where is just by doing full diamond hydro

sleek gull
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Those numbers don't seem real

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Granted it's LB so it's not even that good in the first place

pseudo dawn
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i personally don't use full diamond hydro and chaos, i use resolution with He cancel just to get better a balance in eHP

humble lava
pseudo dawn
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is even better since you don't have to optimize accesories

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and all of them are technically free

quick jolt
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Or etwa

pseudo dawn
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not the whole build

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my build with winded would deal this dmg with 30 winded + curse + water powder in armor

image.png
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and it doesn't have -Def or -agi, so you can tweak it according to your needs

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but I rather not using winded, i prefer full LB

wintry heath
pseudo dawn
wintry heath
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you don't use lament for wars

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you use monster or aco

quick jolt
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THIS HAS GOT TO BE RB

quick jolt
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💡

pseudo dawn
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or just don't wanna invest on them

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Also my noncrafted build is almost the same without the downsides of a crafted and 10k more eHP so you can even optimize that crafted one
With buffs
non-crafted //crafted

image.png image.png
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but anyways back to the topic, survivality is not as rewarded or complex as it should be imo, most games offer a lot of stuff to make tanks/supports more complex and wynn doesn't bc a lot of stuff

hazy cove
pseudo dawn
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is just winded + curse + water powder

hazy cove
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yeah ik

pseudo dawn
# pseudo dawn but anyways back to the topic, survivality is not as rewarded or complex as it s...

imo thats also fault of how IDs work and elements work, for example, most defensive stuff is covered in skill points (resistance and dodge) when those kind of mechanics are present in equipment or AT in most games, healing stuff is also kinda messed up since is always based on 3 things which are HP and He for most stuff(more recently) and in FH in healing classes (which is kinda ds) while offensive stuff is more widely present in all kinds of things, is present on AT with conversion nodes, is present on Sp (Crit rate, dmg multiplier and spell multipliers) and is present in more than 20 IDs (Tho most of them are just specific kinds of dmg but still)

quick jolt
pseudo dawn
quick jolt
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Yorp

pseudo dawn
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in most games, resistance values can be also raw or %, here we only have % and the fact that most universal resistance is granted by sp means that there is no oportunities of playing with it since you would have that base permanently, same thing with healing, there is no variation in healing with skills, meaning that it doesn't matter how skilled you are, you will heal the same ammount on different situations with the same equipment/weapons

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there is no meta glass healer archetypes, no shielding archetypes or generalistic playstyles

sleek gull
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No generalistic play styles?

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Doesn't... That feel wrong?

pseudo dawn
quick jolt
pseudo dawn
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abso outheals it, meaning that is not the meta for a healer focused archetype

sleek gull
quick jolt
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Abso is overkill healing

pseudo dawn
quick jolt
#

good ehp ok dps good team support

pseudo dawn
# quick jolt Abso is overkill healing

yeah, thats why is meta for healing focused unlike hadal, it doesn't mean that hadal is bad, but is not mean't to be used as the meta healing focused weapon

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i preffer hadal and i use it as a healing weapon, but it know that is not the meta for healers, i wouldn't be bringing up my hadal to a war as a healer because abso is 10 times better

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same thing here, in wynn, meta is so rigid when it comes to healers or tanks, name any healing mythic that has something unique and i could count 10 times more dps mythic that has something unique, same thing with IDs tied to those playstyles, MIDs or even AT nodes dedicated to it (with the exception of AT nodes dedicating to supports, which are in a lot of cases poorly implemented like fortitude, masks or winded)

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in comparison, you could go to any game where there is the trinity or something else and you would find more variation or diversity on healer/tank playstyles

quick jolt
stray plover
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fatal, the crossing, everything

quick jolt
stray plover
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i forgor

pseudo dawn
quick jolt
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Wel yes but there is more than 1 metric

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in a raid situation simply only considering healing is not realistic

pseudo dawn
oblique crystal
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im going to lose my mind at the lb builds here they r so bad

wispy bronze
stark siren
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i thought that kinda went without saying

wispy bronze
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Just to clarify then

stray plover
stark siren
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I do genuinely think that slowing potions down to a 10 second heal time could be healthy for the game's balance but I severely doubt we could do that without getting screeched at

humble lava
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it would be a massive withdraw of trust, a balance the ct is lacking right now

wispy bronze
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Atp do you care

stark siren
craggy vigil
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I think there will be short term screeching, but this meta has fucked the playerbase to where 90% of them have the most warped view of what's good for the game

humble lava
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we're at the point where (apperently) lightbender > arcanist in damage

oblique crystal
humble lava
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meteor is worse than snakespam (apperently)

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(at least, for arcanist)

oblique crystal
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???? no way

humble lava
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please buff meteor further on arcanist 😭

oblique crystal
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i refuse to believe that

humble lava
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@raw root get over here we've got to defend snakespam

raw root
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yeah i got the ranking 1s

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10w meteor 330k
20w snakespam 250k
10w tstorm meteor 240k
tstorm meteor 220k
meteor 200k

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this is dps measured over like 20-30s

oblique crystal
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oh so it isnt better

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thats what i thought

raw root
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10w meteor means

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you have to stack 10w with your main attack

oblique crystal
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i mean why would u use tstorm atp is just a dmg nerf

oblique crystal
raw root
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it should be around 400k+ but im never gonna recommend that shit

oblique crystal
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u can probably just cycle snake while building winded

raw root
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u cast meteor and meteor arrives after fruma

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to get 20w you cant take psychokinesis nor the node that speeds up meteor, even with entropy mID its kinda ass

young mountain
oblique crystal
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i mean 20w snakespam builds 3x faster but needs to build 2x more
so if ur decent at melee it wont be much faster and its a fair bit less dmg sooo

raw root
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yeah if ur raiding i can see the justification

#

i just wouldnt rly run arcanist for raids ever again lmao, i just use snakespam for lootruns where its obv the best choice

oblique crystal
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i mean arca just kinda ass in general they just nerfed it too much and didnt give anything at all

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i hope they buff it next changelog or its kinda cooked im ngl

raw root
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for raids? eh its fine too if ur fast at stacking winded with +tier offhand ur gna do more dmg on pure meteor arca though

raw root
oblique crystal
raw root
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riftwalker didnt even lose dmg from it from what i saw so was the point to just kill arca or

oblique crystal
raw root
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it did not need the smoke 😭

oblique crystal
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maybe they just didnt like how the aspect worked and changed it but didnt think about the whole its a nerf thing

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or they pulled a give buff when they have dev time but nerf it now so you get a limbo period where u get fucked

wintry heath
stark siren
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it really is once done never forgotten with some of you huh

craggy vigil
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pointing that out isnt gonna make it better tbh

stark siren
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right back atcha

craggy vigil
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im on your side

wintry heath
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that's the exact reason for the thunderstorm nerf

oblique crystal
tribal ruin
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the womp womp was from the entropy nerf not tstorm

wispy bronze
wintry heath
stark siren
wintry heath
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I don't like the recent nerf to the arcanist mythic aspect, entropy mID, meteor damage, mana bank from thunderstorm and the thunderstorm aspect. Arcanist was already struggling before then and was confusing when riftwalker was gigabuffed when it has much more Qol

oblique crystal
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probably didnt wanna just buff reg thunderstorm since that affects rift aswell?

(still wouldve been good to give arca a buff somewhere else anyway)

wintry heath
oblique crystal
wintry heath
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it hurts arca a lot more than rift

oblique crystal
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yeah 10000000% agree

wispy bronze
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Arca meteor buff when

wintry heath
wispy bronze
pseudo dawn
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Arcanist constantly losing dmg with patches and LB being nuked a while ago

tight mist
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how do you guys even build a snake arcanist tree anyway
sounds fun. nice breath of fresh air.