#Allowing Winded to affect Melee Damage on Mage

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

urban summit
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As the title suggests, I think that allowing Winded to affect your melee damage would allow for more diverse builds either implemented as an armor Major Identification or a Rift Ability Tree Node.

Currently, Mage is the only class that lacks a proper melee playstyle, as, from what I can recall, Mage only has 3 Melee focused nodes: Wand Proficiency I and II, and Pyrokinesis. This leads almost every wand with Melee Identifications to be less than enticing, such as Gaia, the level 97 Mythic Wand whose Major Identification Earthen Splinter is seen as little more than a footnote compared to the Fourth Spell Cost Identification.

Gaia's current role serves as an offhand for Rift playstyles, using its Fourth Spell Cost Identification in conjunction with the Gust Ability Node, to quickly generate Winded stacks for whatever Main Hand Wand the build uses. If Winded were able to apply to Melee damage, Gaia could see use as a very strong Heavy Melee wand that can make use of its % Main Attack Damage and Raw Main Attack Damage Identifications along with Earthen Splinter, using its Fourth Spell Cost Identification to generate Winded quickly to bolster the build's starting uptime.

While Gaia is the most glaring example of a Wand that would benefit from this change, it is certainly not the only item. The Perilous Flare Major Identification, seen on the Botched Experiment Wand and the Cypress Amber Helmet, would indirectly benefit, as Melee Mage builds would likely pick up the Pyrokinesis Ability Node for the extra damage and Area of Effect. Additionally, on the same line as Gaia, the Singularity Mythic Wand also has Main Attack Damage Identifications and a Powder Special Major Identification, and thus would also benefit.

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I cannot posit this change without acknowledging some counterpoints. "Wouldn't this make all Mage builds that utilize Winded better with little cost?", "Why does Mage need a Melee playstyle? It's the wizard class. It should be casting spells.", or "Mage isn't balanced around Melee being a primary factor in damage." These are all valid concerns. I believe, however, that expanding options for players and giving underused items and weapons a chance at more relevance is an overall improvement to the gameplay experience. Currently, nearly all Mage builds are centered around stacking Mana Sustain, Spell and Elemental damage for Rift and Arca, or those Identifications in addition to Healing Efficiency and Health for LB.

With this change, there could be a few different Melee playstyles. First, a tstack that uses its high attack speed to stack Winded with minimal use of spells to generate Winded. Second, a Heavy Melee that uses Gust to quickly generate Winded for powerful Powder Specials. Lastly, a Spell-Melee mix that uses different spells and abilities to generate Winded in conjunction with Powder Specials. These are only a few possibilities of what could be if this were implemented.

Overall, I believe it would be a positive change to the Mage gameplay loop. This change would be a light bump to spell-focused Arca and LB Winded trees, a moderate bump to Rift trees, and some much needed love for Melee wands overall.

oblique fulcrum
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i mean with the average melee dps on spell builds (and how little they melee) for most situations only melee benefits except like a few lb builds

urban summit
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That's why I think this would be a good change for mage build diversity

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the impact on most current mage builds would be negligible compared to the spell damage but melee mage would be viable

oblique fulcrum
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its not the most interesting melee change but i would much rather we have it than not have it

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(i mean the interesitng stuff can wait for mage rws)

stuck patio
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RW is going to be reworked and winded is the first thing that CT said that was being eliminated with the rework, even as a bandaid patch i don't see it worth considering future changes

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i would honestly preffer to see how the rework is going to be

urban summit
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ah unfortunate

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i do hope new rw is more melee viable though, its a cool concept

heavy depot
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@hoary grail

spare aspen
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Please yes this sounds fun melee mage pls

elder sierra
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Melee mage suggestion and poison suggestion try to not get ignored without ct response challenge

lament spire
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For a temppru fix before mage rework it woild prob be fine but might make plp expext new rift to also support melee

oblique fulcrum
forest shell
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Please please putting my 2 cents here we need any viable damage scaling mechanic for melee mage the items are so fun

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(Once rw rework)

heavy depot
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Using wrong grammatical termination as a reply is so funny

hoary grail
oblique fulcrum
elder sierra
lament spire
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🤯

oblique fulcrum
quasi crow
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I strive for singu ts return

jovial mural
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Or just rebalance mage weapon so they have good weapon damage

Like every other damn class, but mage somehow is cucked. And then balance spells accordingly if needed

stuck patio
urban summit
forest shell
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I want this to be real so badly but I fear we will have to wait until rw rework and hope some melee boosts come with it

eager cliff
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I have a feeling this would turn trance into the most powerful hmelee weapon in the game.

forest shell
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I don’t think you’re beating hmelee quakes from archetypes with several damage stacking options, also would probably be cancel stack if anything

urban summit
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plus trance has super low base damage so making it hmelee would ruin its dps

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i'd be hard pressed if trance beats out gaia in heavy melee

eager cliff
# forest shell I don’t think you’re beating hmelee quakes from archetypes with several damage s...

Presuming winded gave a 30% melee damage bonus per winded (like it does with meteor), with a 30% reduction from trance. That would be 21% * 60 or 1260% melee damage bonus. On top of the 200% given from pyrokinesis, together they would be conservatively 1460%. Which would be an insane base multiplier.

Cancel stacking just dawn break with trance gives it 26440.93 average dps. (https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CN000000000SQ000Kd00000m8lBkq+jfxGs61)
Adding pyro (a 2x multiplier) turns it to 51530.24
(https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CN000000000SQ000Kd00000m8lBkq+jfxGscG)
A theoretical 14.6 multiplier would make trance do roughly 370173.02 with only cancel stack dawnbreak. There is plenty more damage you can add on top of it.

This would be absolutely insane. As other powerful hmelee classes usually need to do spell setup, trance would only need to melee. Not to even mention that none of them are in the ballpark of what trance could do.

Even if winded only scaled by 10% for melee damage that would come out to be 660% and would do 158645.58 with just cancel stack dawnbreak.

For comparison if we use tier stack Gaia, where winded is scaled to 10%, Gaia will only recieve a total 500% damage boost. Assuming a very similar setup where Gaia +3000 main attack damage raw and +300% main attack raw its base would be (53101.10) and its pyro winded mult (*5) would be 265505.5. While this might appear greater than trance, the thing is that trance has a lot more room for armor multipliers due to cancel stack. Where gaia needs to invest in tier stack and so will struggle to reach this number.

urban summit
eager cliff
eager cliff
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And hmelee will never beat the burst damage of spells anyways.

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Not worth arguing that point.

urban summit
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monster typically outperforms trance in lightbender, no?

eager cliff
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Yes. This is because we are talking about lightbender not hmelee. Lightbender does not profit from winded as much as it could, hence trance isn't great.

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Light bender only gets +3% per winded for ophanim, this is to prevent it from becoming the best mage class hands down.

urban summit
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This is also assuming it would be a 30% boost, instead of say, 15% like Windsweeper gives Ice Snake

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(plus its 25% not 30% for meteor) iirc

eager cliff
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Well even if it was a 10% boost which I also considered it would still be somewhat significant, as I described below.

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While it would no longer blow everything out of the water, it would still comfortably do 300k to 400k dps without spells.

urban summit
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what if you didnt do tier stack on gaia and instead did straight hmelee rawstack

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you could use gust to stack gaia's winded

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thereby eliminating the costs that come with tierstack building

eager cliff
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Let me test if the average would work out.

eager cliff
# urban summit what if you didnt do tier stack on gaia and instead did straight hmelee rawstack

If we gave gaia +500% and +10k extra melee damage. It would have an average dps of 24572.86 (assuming earth powders). At 10% melee damage per winded, that means in total with pyrokensis it would do 122864.3 dps or less. The problem is, is that pyrokinesis does not scale power specials. So it is very very likely neither would winded. Thefore the powered specials would remain doing an extra 107558.47 every so often. Not off setting the average dps to make it better than trance. Which would be doing 300k to 400k average.

urban summit
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youre factoring in that gaia does 3x the damage on its powder specials right

eager cliff
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I am taking that number from wynnbuilder. If 107558 is wrong, and its 3x that. Its closer but still not beating trance specifically because it does not scale.

urban summit
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also i think winded would apply, as Pyrokinesis is a modification of the standard melee while Winded would be a debuff applying to melee damage

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similar to how Twain's Arc cant apply to powder specials

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but focus can

eager cliff
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If it did scale, then we need to start considering trances effect with powder specials as well.

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Trance could use Insigna with thunder powder, and because it has a higher winded mult could make up for the difference in power special differences.

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It would be the case that gaia would be alot more effective, even if it did not scale up to trance. The burst damage from gaia certainly would be higher.

urban summit
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fair point, but I would like to ask is it really a bad thing if Trance is good for melee mage

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it's an anni mythic that's outclassed in most builds its currently used for

eager cliff
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None of this is a bad thing, I personally like having broken weapons in a game. It also would be a good turn around for trance.

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I do think it would be cool to have winded effect melee damage.

urban summit
eager cliff
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It would likely be a buff to lightbender if they keep it subtle. However if they dont, it will turn trance into a melee weapon.

urban summit
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I was honestly shocked when I looked into winded and found out that Melee is the only damage type Winded doesnt have a node for

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Mage needs melee options, in my opinion, and trance being the best melee weapon in the game would be 🔥

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epoch has had it too good for too long

forest shell
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Crazy theory anyways current trance without winded does 220k

urban summit
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melee dps ?

forest shell
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Ofc you’d need to change the MID. I think the whole archetype is getting cooked which is why I don’t think we need to worry about how melee will scale without them actually changing rw first

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Yeah Melee cypress amber cancel stack

urban summit
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wow

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make it 500k 😈

forest shell
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at least my version which has the effective range of an angry mouse and no qol

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I appreciate the effort of theory craft with all the numbers but if we’re adding winded dps scale now, it would probably have to have a hard % cap. Which I would love to talk about but I have 0 faith this convo will yield anything until rework. All I want is for our Dear CT to know we long for melee mage

urban summit
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We have one of the highest upvoted posts in the last few days

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so I hope the CT notices our efforts

forest shell
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It’s also been mentioned before but WE WILL NOT FORGET

eager cliff
forest shell
eager cliff
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Non crafted?

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I can probably just go find u ingame

forest shell
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It would honestly be solid just kiting and shooting, non crafted gets close to optimal value. Worst part is SLOW cypress amber travel time

eager cliff
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Mhm

forest shell
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So the use cases are MAYBE TCC. MAYBE anni. I have priv islands and afk so I’ll whip something up

eager cliff
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Kk

forest shell
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This is just kinda slop but the reason the dps is higher than you’d think is because close to 100% exploding with decent rolls. Don’t want to derail tooo much but I think this is an example people can look at. Knucklebones is kinda cooked but the huge ls from trance kinda saves it. Also don’t @ me about the tree lmao

eager cliff
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Huh

forest shell
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(Exploding not factored into wynntil #)

eager cliff
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Cypress amber huh

eager cliff
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But wyncraft is not a perfect game

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So it does sometimes 1.5x your damage

forest shell
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Yeah it was doing like 250k single target in my one TCC run lmao

eager cliff
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Mhm

forest shell
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I do not recommend it and it feels AWFUL to play…just wish things were more consistent

eager cliff
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Certainly if winded scaled, you would be able to build more around QoL

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But yes, all hmelee feels awful because at best its too easy to play

forest shell
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Yeah exactly, you need to sacrifice almost everything else to get this build to work. Even warrior hmelee has fun scaling with blood pact now

eager cliff
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But the bp scaling is not fun. Ngl.

forest shell
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I am anxiously awaiting rw rework (have you played shredder club hmelee lmao)

eager cliff
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I've been trying to make it fun, but spells are just so much better

eager cliff
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Best I could get was 300k average, with 500k peaks.

forest shell
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Oh yeah thats on top rn but hmelee options are still very fun imo, OP of this thread @urban summit plays hmelee insignia apoc and loves it

eager cliff
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Certainly archer is better designed for hmelee

forest shell
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Yeah, it was built to fire off big single shots if you want that. assassin still has highest dps potential (I think) for hmelee, but you also have a decent bit of down time

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Fun to see a 5m obli quake, but needs setup. It would be cute if rw mage could also build up stacks of damage potential by running around (?) I’m sure some mechanics are already being hashed out

eager cliff
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Maybe

urban summit
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its between titano or insig but its hmelee apoc

eager cliff
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Tbh I dont want rift to change all that much, because I like windeds flexibility in the other two archtypes it feels well integrated. However I hope whatever they make will be cool.

urban summit
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fallen tree with luster purge

oblique fulcrum
forest shell
oblique fulcrum
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exploding does nothing single target

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either rais buff team buff dummy moment or smthn else

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if exploding was actually doing anything you would be doing double the dmg of in wynnbuilder

forest shell
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ofc it was raid buff for tcc

eager cliff
urban summit
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or Hesperium

kindred hazel
elder sierra
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250k burst

kindred hazel
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Tbh just move pyro over to lb tree somewhere down and call it a day

forest shell
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It does basically nothing for arca except make building mana bank with main attack more satisfying

kindred hazel
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Yea just move it down to where sentient snake is maybe

heavy depot
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why are you putting the melee node on the architype that doesn't use earth too like what

forest shell
heavy depot
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Idk maybe it had some melee nodes like lifesteal or a focus on the earth element

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maybe it needs alternative ways of regenerating idk

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I mean if you swap heal with pyrokenisis I think lightbender could use it instead

forest shell
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lb melee node hmmmmmm

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I could see giant ophanim being so funny

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but that sounds more like a MID than a node

heavy depot
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honestly you made the worst idea I've seen in the history of wynn and the old apoc mID existed

forest shell
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one giant orb that you drop on people

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Orphion's Toe