Paladin needs some serious reworks🛡️💪🙏

[prime fractal]

I think paladin deserves a rework. Fallen is fine but doesn't get nearly as much dps as other classes for the risk, nobody knows whats going on with battlemonk and paladin is useless for most content. I think paladin is going in a wrong direction. I would expect a tank class to have some damage absorption abilities and to be able to hold aggro but provoke was nerfed a while ago and most endgame bosses deal area damage anyways. Instead it is getting more damage abilities for some reason that will never work well since other archetypes just deal more damage. I am also disappointed that the team buffs (like emboldening cry) got nerfed as well. I would love for there to be a proper MMORPG-like tank class in this game.

Warrior is the worst class in the game, and the community is partial to blame

[sleek raptor]

<@&268142859327242242> rule 5?

[potent gorge]

the fastest cf mute.

[pure ermine]

Seriously can people just stop claiming ___ is the worst class in Wynn... you arnt even giving discriptors. You mean least viable, most boring, most toxic, more painful to use...

[languid hedge]

If this gets a cf mute over the mage one i think the world might explode

[pure ermine]

There referring to my comment which is regularising my frustration regularising these stupid ___ class is bad.

[neon abyss]

What was it

[flint willow]

four letters, of the shushing variety

[manic robin]

While I wouldn't have put it quite so... Harshly, I do agree on the point of paladin. I think tank-related support abilities can be expanded on a lot more, and yeah, as cool as surge is it's just some damage on what will always be a low damage archetype

[potent gorge]

at least the mage one was from a person who didnt understand mage. this one has gotta be bait

[pure ermine]

Yeah was a bit harsh should have calmed down a bit before typing that.

[languid hedge]

Oh yeah i mean the title

[timid pumice]

just feedback mute this

[shadow ginkgo]

if you are going to say a class is objectively bad to play as, at least tell why it's bad - this is constructive feedback, not rantoholics united
e.g. say what's wrong with the archetypes, be more descriptive (why is X archetype not viable in Y or Z activities and what would you like to see changed)

[languid hedge]

Gives away the funny joke

[prime fractal]

maybe i shouldve specified paladin

[timid pumice]

this is a joke thread because of this

[prime fractal]

i was too lazy to type out stuff for the other classes

[neon abyss]

Every masterpiece has its cheap copy

[pure ermine]

Exactly

[white patio]

this is a ragebait/joke thread just lock it

[languid hedge]

If someone makes a “shaman is the worst class in the game” i will literally get myself banned on the thread

[flint willow]

agreed, lock em up

[potent gorge]

the humble lunatic mask ❤️

[past sleet]

Last

[timid pumice]

wrong

[potent gorge]

shaman wouldnt be as strong if it werent for the easiest 45% damage increase of all time

[past sleet]

Last^2

[timid pumice]

wrong^2

[past sleet]

stop

[flint willow]

no mods are typing their lock message, sorry dorrie it won't happen

[pure ermine]

Shamen is good outside of ritualst.

[timid pumice]

nuh uh

[languid hedge]

Last

[agile swift]

First

[past sleet]

Its ok im farming xp

[languid hedge]

Pbomb exception

[split cargo]

hold on lemme in before the lock as well

[past sleet]

LASTTTTTT LASTTTSSSS LAST

[languid hedge]

Last

[timid pumice]

nuh uh

[spare root]

hi

[past sleet]

DAZZLE QUICK

[prime fractal]

lets get back on topic everyone

[shadow ginkgo]

it really will be the last, for you that is, if you try to be funny and say "pls lock" for no reason - the thread will stay, OP @prime fractal needs to change the title and edit post to be more descriptive

[timid pumice]

no

[past sleet]

No...

[prime fractal]

Paladin needs some serious reworks🛡️💪🙏

[languid hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/bahaha-lol-hd-gif-minion-minion-laugh-gif-2154867417577880306

[timid pumice]

the post is quite obviously a joke/ragebait thread because of NexStargaze's thread about mage

[flint willow]

incredible

now talk about paladin some more

[agile swift]

The title was a joke but the criticism is valid 💪

[past sleet]

Nerf heavenly trumpet

[split cargo]

warrers found dead in a ditch once more

[past sleet]

Based!

[flint willow]

all is good in the world

[pure ermine]

... this chat has been disrailed please lock it.

[prime fractal]

Maybe they could make the holy power abilities give buffs or enemy debuffs instead of doing dmg

[spare root]

https://tenor.com/view/olympics-olympic-games-australia-sydney2000-olympic-games-opening-gif-17877701

[past sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/minecraft-gif-13759841195913671721

[crimson osprey]

Shares 31le

[past sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/disconnected-disconnect-crashed-minecraft-gif-24750803

[crimson osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/old-snake-metal-gear-solid-snake-time-goes-by-fast-metal-gear-solid-gif-26264117

I was afraid i cooked myself for buying hero when shares were 29le thinking it might drop lower. God bless i gambled at it like on stock market

[wispy cape]

Paladin Tierstack or Burgir

That's about it, the rest are fever dreams (and even these two are kek)

[prime fractal]

2stx for a hero was a steal ngl

[crimson osprey]

More like 20 but close enough

[prime fractal]

burger was kinda fun

but they also nerfed that

[agile swift]

paladin tierstack?

is that like "paladin spells do so little damage you're better off meleeing instead"

shi that's kinda smart

[prime fractal]

ngl i didnt even question it

[flint willow]

palafallen bforce build

[agile swift]

battle monk found dead in a ditch

[split cargo]

like it wasnt already

[languid hedge]

Guys lets make -ms trigger bloodpact at 0 mana so we can get real palafallen tstack damage

[split cargo]

actually wait no the recent patch make it more like dead beneath a highway but still

[wispy cape]

That's what I do, gotta do with the cards given to you 🤧

[agile swift]

funny thing is due to discombobulate giving you raw spell damage bonus ETW is not that good compared to tankier builds

[wispy cape]

All the Counter support being partly in Bmonk is stupid btw, still don't understand why counter isn't fully in the Paladin side

Bmonk is NOT about parrying stuff or taking dmg, unlike Paladin + it just doesn't make sense with the rest of the support

[agile swift]

...and tankier builds are good for paladin! goddammit...

[lapis dune]

Why would you lean it more into a support tree?

If you go full paladin and do a pfinder raid, you're cooked

[flint willow]

it's almost like they thought of it

[wispy cape]

Eh, Tierstack does better than it seems

Just not giga great, but you can do the content

[prime fractal]

its how i imagine a tank in an MMORPG

tanks are the one giving team buffs and taking all the dmg

and the taking all the dmg part is kinda hard in wynn

[languid hedge]

In an actual mmorpg the raid team doesnt all die in 5 seconds 🔥

[manic robin]

Well what if instead of low damage, you did 0 but actually gave enough support to make up for it

[prime fractal]

exactly

[agile swift]

well the good news is tanks with emboldening cry give you +8% damage bonus!
...while battle monk gives you +10% strength (+12 +10/+13/+14 with T1/T2/T3 battle monk mythic aspects I believe)

[agile swift]

new king of hearts build leaked

[novel harness]

Deez cheeks are free dawg

[split cargo]

+20sp in all stats to every nearby ally, but you gotta literally be on top of them for the buff to proc

[eternal quarry]

you can stack it, it's 22% at max

[split cargo]

promote you frantically chasing after your teammates in raid

[languid hedge]

We gotta start with reducing trumpet cooldown, the overhealth decay feels so bad

[manic robin]

They need to make the skill ceiling higher, but imo a good paladin should basically stop everyone from dying if they cooperate well

[novel harness]

Can we remove walk speed identification from the game its breaking the balance

[prime fractal]

oh yeah trumpet cooldown is way too long

[rough flint]

Fax

[lapis dune]

Theoretically it sounds like a good idea, I just don't think the practical application would be all that successful unless you were in some coordinated team from one of the few big raiding guilds

[languid hedge]

The best example of a paladin keeping the team from dying is when they charge the acolyte with bpact and then the acolyte keeps the team from dying

Lol

[prime fractal]

a good tank should be able to support a team of randoms as well

[lapis dune]

That doesn't sound realistic

[rough flint]

Generalist pala 💪

[prime fractal]

back when burger was a thing i actually did some pretty fun pfinder raids with it

[languid hedge]

There is also guard id but the range of that is like nothing in comparison to a raid boss arena

[lapis dune]

most of your tanking is praying enemies get attracted to Provoke

[split cargo]

if the class is designed well enough I dont see why not

[prime fractal]

yeah provoke def needs a buff

[rough flint]

there is no praying needed just get close enough??

[manic robin]

I take issue with the way all buffs rely on the tankyness of the person getting buffed
Rather than the build of the actual paladin

[warm slate]

good tanks and supports in team shooters manage just fine with randoms

[rough flint]

It’s like a mix of damage and ehp buffs tho

[dreamy wigeon]

Make a buffs scale with x stat instead of just being flat?

[rough flint]

and that kinda applies to all the other support classes

[manic robin]

You should be killing yourself to make everyone else unkillable

[prime fractal]

i dont really like the idea of having the entire archetype rely on guardian to work as well

[spare root]

gotta remember that pala also has to be viable for solo content

[languid hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/low-tier-god-awesome-mario-twerking-gif-23644561

[earnest lion]

Why does everyone confuse tank with wall

Tank is literally supposed to do damage. It’s a big ass tank that steam rolls everything, and takes a ton of hits. That’s its gimmick. Its downsides is that it’s a fucking tank and its huge, gaudy, and can’t really do much else than roll and shoot

A Wall supports structures, takes hits, and nothing else. It’s the support concept, not tank

[languid hedge]

We’re talking about mmo tank not overwatch tank

[earnest lion]

This is mmo tank, too

[spare root]

paladin should deal 50% more damage at the cost of 50% move speed true

[languid hedge]

Also even mmo tank depends on the mmo too

[warm slate]

if that is an mmo tank then how are they any different from dps

[languid hedge]

I cant blanket statement that

[earnest lion]

They’re different in the fact they can’t move and have zero qol

Only damage, only EHP. Heavy melee type of playstyle, where the dps is manageable only because you have the ehp to handle not being able to move on a slower concept

Normal DPS options have the joy of both more consistent dps, or better burst, and movement qualities to support it

[warm slate]

thats a heavy dps imo

[marsh knoll]

Hi everyone

[earnest lion]

Which is what a tank is. Without damage options, a tank doesn’t exist. Because why would you call it a tank, then

[languid hedge]

Even if paladin is buffed to support a better role as a tank, this is a game of “dps the boss as fast as possible”

[marsh knoll]

I heard something about a Paladin rework

[languid hedge]

Like even having a healer is a waste in that regard if your team just does it fast enough

[earnest lion]

Paladin deserves a healthy mix of support wall, ofc, but it is inherently designed—now—to be a tank. You take hits and use that to support your dps. It should be built with ehp in mind, and allow you to forgo all qol for your dps to be supported

It’s, generally, a no skill, single player type of playstyle that supports newer players who can’t do the better options as well. And, tbh, I think Paladin does that alright, especially when mixed with fallen

Best part is that, because Wynn is generally fast paced, and has the tiniest semblance of actual strategy in the raids you fight, you kinda have to find a way to make it work without just straight up dying to gimmicks

[languid hedge]

The no skill part kinda sucks but is true

In runescape the other mmo i play, base tanking is considered the hardest role

[warm slate]

a tank neednt have high dps nor be slow though. the primary job of a tank is to take hits or draw fire

[languid hedge]

Has a purpose but thats cause of boss mechanics

[earnest lion]

Generally, MMO options that offer tanks give you a fun, tough role as a leader

Wynn doesn’t have multiplayer, though, so

[warm slate]

wrecking ball from overwatch, for example

[languid hedge]

[earnest lion]

Wrecking ball falls into a completely different section of tank playstyle, prioritizing significantly more movement potential than the average tank. It’s super unique, and incorporates many attributes of other concepts into its identity. As such, I wouldn’t really call it a “true tank”, much like I wouldn’t call support paladin a “true tank”

[spare root]

the never-ending conundrum of tanks in games built around not needing tanks

[earnest lion]

Wynn being a highly movement, combo centered game alone makes tanks already fall behind

[spare root]

additionally that too yeah

[warm slate]

if we go by your definition of tank, wynn's shaman class is a tank. you sacrifice QOL and movement ability for damage

[earnest lion]

Provoke is kinda its whole shtick, if you want to do something real

[earnest lion]

You need EHP and resistances

Which fanatic mask can potentially offer, but no lmao

[spare root]

it's not as much of paladin's fault as the entire game's design being against it and tanking in general yeah

[earnest lion]

(However, because Wynn is super versatile with its items, tanks can be born of every class)

[agile swift]

archer tank! (ignis +altruism)

[warm slate]

fanatic mask and acolyte self heal/overhealth

[earnest lion]

But they aren’t true tank, and shouldn’t be classified as such, because Wynn doesn’t really get too specific, once you start combining archetypes and roles. You end up going for what’s the most versatile, not for any intrinsic roles

[earnest lion]

Which actually goes into a different concept entirely. More support wall dps than a tank

[warm slate]

"support wall dps" bro are you hearing yourself

[earnest lion]

Tank, again, is ONLY damage and ehp. Nothing else

If an ability tree is designed around a tank playstyle, it offers sustain for the gimmick tank offers. And, paladin does actually do that, whilst also offering support options. It can be built as a pure tank, or a support wall

[warm slate]

support wall is insane

[earnest lion]

When you combine 10 different roles into multiple archetypes, with the inclusion of items, names get messy and roles become super versatile

[warm slate]

tf is a support wall

[earnest lion]

Wall that sponges damage because high resistances and HP, support supports your team with buffs, heals, etc

[sleek raptor]

Can you actually name a game where this is common terminology cause I've never heard this distinction being made ever

[earnest lion]

Literally a role found in pokemon lol

[prime fractal]

i feel like you are fundamentally missing the point of what a tank is in games apart from overwatch

[earnest lion]

Wall: Shuckle
Tank: Golem
Support wall: Wigglytuff

[warm slate]

they're literally missing the point of what a tank is even in overwatch. their definition barely fits any of the tanks in the game

[earnest lion]

Easiest example I can think of where this distinction is mentioned

[warm slate]

dawg theres no way you're saying a pokemon fits your definition of tank when pokemon dont even have movement speeds

[prime fractal]

my point still stands that wynncraft is missing a good "wall" archetype even if you call it something else

[earnest lion]

There’s an entire stat dedicated to speed 😭

[warm slate]

thats attack speed, you literally dont move around in pokemon

[earnest lion]

ZA does that now, too, but just because its turn based, doesn’t mean the speed stat isn’t considered

[languid hedge]

POKEMON??

How’d we get that in a talk about tank concepts

[warm slate]

next thing i know you're gonna tell me HMelee is a tank build because its dps with "low speed"

[earnest lion]

Because it’s an RPG that actually has roles for every single pokemon

Just like FF, DD, whatever

[warm slate]

the roles are made up by the community...

[earnest lion]

If it meets the criteria of EHP and damage, yeah, most heavy melee builds fall into the category of tank

[languid hedge]

Does pokemon have like a multi pokemon mode and an aggro system? I have not played in so long

[earnest lion]

Nah, it’s just a turn based RPG, until ZA/LA

[warm slate]

😭 omw to make a high ehp high damage high movement speed low attack speed "tank" hmelee build

[earnest lion]

I wish you luck, but there aren’t alot of items that support it too much

[warm slate]

because it isnt a role archetype 😭

[earnest lion]

warrior basically gets the majority of Hvy melee tank options, since stuff like animosity, epoch, Axiom, etc have movement options in their kit

[earnest lion]

Aight, I’m all done

[warm slate]

i think this sums up the convo, pretty much

you're clearly calling what we call tank, wall, and a mix between wall & dps, tank

which i think completely misses the point that the 3 role system is a loose categorisation supposed to describe a fundamental, atomic characteristic of each role, not an entire list of characteristics that only a few things will actually fit into

[split cargo]

something something cant outstall the wall

[cunning bison]

supporting playstyles in general are just badly executed on wynn because there is too much support for DPS, a dps has the same tools as a support in the AT and the support doesn't have as much tools in terms of building and skill expression as a DPS, however yes, i agree with you, is not a badly designed

and this is mostly to how DPS performs, is way too much, current balances are closing that gap but like, there is a lot to do with supports/tanks/generalistic playstyles

especially in terms of especialization

[dawn urchin]

i do somewhat agree with the concept in that paladin's execution falls a bit flat in practice, i almost feel like wynn needs to explore paladin through a lightbender style of perspective where you can tank for something that provides your damage.

inherently wynn is a solo game with multiplayer elements so like you have to have some forms of damage there are many parts of content that have dps checks as well

maybe its just me but i really dont like the idea of wynn paladin being a wall, like yeah the unstoppable object is a strong part of paladin fantasies but just standing still feels like it becomes rather uninteresting pretty quickly

[edgy tiger]

roles only matter when content reaches a certain difficulty/people want to optimize. Most multiplayer content on wynn doesn't need specific roles (wars on top!!!), they may be optimal but you can do just fine with 10 generalist dps builds on annihilation, and maybe 1 dps that heals.
Being an mmorpg doesnt mean it has to adhere to the role trifecta, so paladin having dps options while being able to do what it says on the tin (protecting allies/buffing them) is good for the players that play those roles.
tl:dr
Players enjoy having some dps on non dps roles.

[cunning bison]

honestly i would love that every endgame activity that involves PvE/PvP had a multiplayer alternative that rewards good teamworking, well, not only good, but like the coop goes beyond doing the challenges and goes to the point of having good communication and sinergy with your friend(s) does reward a lot, we have Graids, we need Duo LR and maybe a rework in forgery to have those kind of activities

i honestly only play healer in most games and usually is a role which is dependant on allies but a lot of games offer some way to reward good heals/shields/tanking, wynncraft doesn't have a lot of mechanics and doesn't have a way to offer a lot in terms of mechanics, but teamwide content could make a space for those players who doesn't get interested in DPS archetypes

it would bring more immersion and utility for all kind of content

[potent gorge]

give me a forgery dungeon crawler roguelite with team based synergy and you will have everything i want wynncraft

[river goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/truth-nuke-truth-true-soyjak-wojak-gif-14828627546768133163

[cunning bison]

i would love that dungeons were just rooms randomly generated like TBOI where depending on the dungeon, it has different enemies/decoration/bosses and forgery is just a bunch of floors of all dungeons in order but in hardmode. (a shorter version of this map would be ideal), the boss would require a key that is on a room and defeating it would spawn a chest with rewards, this would also change the boss arena

[umbral elk]

palidin is very viable, however it sucks to play

recent changes have made it do much less damage to the point where two palidins in a party is detrimental in raids

[grizzled ruin]

i wont get in the way of this thread since i am very biased for paladin, but i will say if this is regarding hallowed blaze, it is technically worse on 1v1's but better in any other sitaution as explained to you before. I think you should stop spreading this type of misinformation around
Two palas in general is prob not the best though I agree, you only need 1 (unless one cant run prevoke radiance embold etc)

[umbral elk]

I'm not talking about hollowed blaze I'm talking about the considerable drop in spell % ssurge does now

[eternal quarry]

can you elaborate on where this drop in spell multi is

[umbral elk]

few months ago? no longer triggering on fireworks and comet but the base got increased slightly

[dawn urchin]

"slightly" it went from 150 > 375

[umbral elk]

it's an overall nerf

[dawn urchin]

damage wise yes, ap wise no

[umbral elk]

you still pick those nodes though

[dawn urchin]

i dont know if ppl are picking comet these days

[eternal quarry]

yeah it got lowered to a maximum of 450% to 375%, but realistically there's little reason to pick comet now so that's a freed up 4 ap

[grizzled ruin]

^^
plus ssurge in general is really good so a nerf like that is completely justified

[umbral elk]

ssurge is good for fallen and monk..

[grizzled ruin]

which can be used on luster purge for more holy power, embold if you havent gotten it already, prevoke, etc. Very useful for paladin

[grizzled ruin]

Also paladin. Please do not make up things as it hurts everyone trying to have a conversation, unless you can provide objective information

[umbral elk]

😭

it's palas main source of damage, it's SUPPOSED to be good for pala

[grizzled ruin]

It still is, no one is disagreeing on that expect you

[umbral elk]

dude what is your issue

it's been observed pala needs a buff, you can tell yourself otherwise

[grizzled ruin]

You can express your thoughts however you do not provide any type of evidence to back it up and it comes off very bluntly as rude and trying to get negative reactions. I don't that type of behavior is needed

At least explain more when you make takes people disagree with is all im saying

[cunning bison]

honestly the 2 paladin situation could be solved with MIDs support rather than AT support since MID can offer more unique ways to create niches that doesn't affect the class in general

[umbral elk]

you still take comet for the damage and holy power generation over heavenly trumpet in most raid builds, pure pala (like used for wars) does not

[edgy tiger]

eleventh hour palafallen and veritas pure paladin type stuff

[umbral elk]

rally was supposed to solve this :c

[cunning bison]

yes, something like that, tho im reserved about opinions since i don't play much warrior or assasin (thats why i don't give reacts pm this type of posts)

[umbral elk]

fair

[grizzled ruin]

I can assure you most paladins do not take comet for dmg or holy power. Unless you are full palafallen then maybe but the dmg gained is quite small given you spam uppercut. You can use that 2 ap for embold if you havent gotten it, or prevoke to make bursting easier for dps's in rai. War wise I cannot comment since I do not war

[cunning bison]

war wise is irrelevant unless you plan on solo medium/high

[grizzled ruin]

wdym (i only skimmed the thread a bit but is this about the two "main" paladins being dps or support paladin)

[cunning bison]

as far as I know

[umbral elk]

Where is your evidence

I'm talking about the atrees taken directly from wynnlitics

[grizzled ruin]

Is wynnlitics the thing panda post about? I am curious to see those trees

[cunning bison]

yes, i was talking about the dps focused paladin is better tackled rn by building support rather than AT support, especially by how DPS is regulating by balances

[junior rivet]

What paladin needs is provoke removed and compensation else where

[grizzled ruin]

I Wouldnt midn more support since dps paladin is just bpact really lol
it makes fun niches but its really, really relient on this

[junior rivet]

Shoulda been gone a long time ago

[cunning bison]

yes, agree on that take, before having dps pala, we should have improvements on other archetypes that have more issues on their main playstyle

and pala as a meantime could get 1-2 MIDs that improve that less used playstyle (doesn't mean that is unwanted but rather is not a priority)

[dawn urchin]

if only paragon was goated....

[cunning bison]

tbf, there should be more generalistic and specific MIDs on items with some MIDs being more present or universally present at every level

[umbral elk]

the recent emboldening change was a really good step in that direction

[grizzled ruin]

the idea is there but man its underwhelming even with that big number

[dawn urchin]

the number isnt that big imma be real

[edgy tiger]

its not big big

[dawn urchin]

it averages out to a little more dps than unaspected shield strike

[edgy tiger]

maybe if it did damage for each extra mantle that you would have (still 1 mantle) so paladin could use its aspect and nodes for more

[grizzled ruin]

give it heartbeat treatmenat and jusat says "triples shield strike dmg" instead of 600% 🔥

[dawn urchin]

banger

that would be 750% so it would be a buff on current

5s is still a relatively long time tho

[grizzled ruin]

hey if it means i can take it on my palafallen i would since id ont really need mantles on there

[dawn urchin]

kinda wished it lowered mantle dmg reduction and like, had an even shorter cooldown or smth

[cunning bison]

also this would sinergize well with other classes buffs, meaning that on teamwide content, buffs like fortitude would escalate better with paladin

[grizzled ruin]

actually yeah even better idea, esp if rock shield exists it can be prob be done with shields too (just in the opposite direction)

[gloomy pewter]

this guy never played big mac i swear

[umbral elk]

bigmac is bad now

yeah

[gloomy pewter]

its fine as it is

i prefer it being balanced rather than being strong

[pure ermine]

They changed the name of the thread

The original name is Warrior is the worst class in the game, and the community is partial to blame

[agile swift]

(name inspired from the #1444869443728576564 message thread)

[sand sand]

ohh im glooping it

[rough flint]

Did we read the patch notes

[celest ravine]

Just ignore them. They're just ragebaiting ._.

[novel harness]

The person youre replying to deserves a feedback muted role

[rough flint]

Fell for the rb Oopsies 😼

A

[prime fractal]

I haven’t really kept up with chat but i think more major ids is a good idea. Also i wanna point out that the ability tree gives us the freedom to choose how we build the class and paladin should imo focus more on “tank” aspects than damage, which already can be gotten from mixing with fallen or bmonk.

[celest ravine]

One thing I do want to try do in the future is include some sort of built in guard-mid in the tree itself

But yeah overall, there's plans but they'll just take some time

Pala is still a bit away from what I'd consider to really be "finished"

[dreamy wigeon]

buff guard, make it 100% of dmg and u can target one player c:

funny immortal cata

[timid pumice]

The main issue is that Pala doesn't have any reason to be used outside of burger or another archetype taking mantles

Heavenly trumpet cooldown is way too long to be actually usable as a heal option and Pala just doesn't effort enough team buffs to be worth it over another player

Additionally the main use Pala (tanking) is basically useless outside of wars because every boss has been reworked to either be fully AoE based or for it to just completely ignore provoke

For example:
TNA's melee range is huge, even extending back a few block
TNA occasionally throws aimed balls at players, it throws at every player at the same time and only really punished standing still most of the time
NoL is basically fully AoE and you can't even hold aggro by the time charges start
NotG ignores your existence most of the time
TCC is 100% AoE, paladin is basically useless

[timid ingot]

its a bit down and left to the discussion but i do wish my old Leadership idea was feasible

[timid pumice]

You're gonna have to specify what Leadership is

[timid ingot]

was from when i was still on AT and it was a suggestion for a new red node. here was my spiel on it

Leadership: Allies within 20 blocks are granted most of your passive abilities. If an ally activates an ability, gain Holy Power as if you activated it.
-Paladin's buffs and passives are great, but only being able to pass on resistance and Radiance means it doesn't really help anyone else that much. Time to fix that
-The list of passives that would activate are: Tougher Skin/Mythril Skin's base defense modifiers, Manachism, Rejuvenating Skin, Sparkling Hope, Second Chance, potentially others in the future if they are added
-Letting allies' passives give you Holy Power also lets Paladin become more effective in groups by dealing greater damage through Sacred Surge. You empower your allies and they empower you in turn
-Second Chance would have independent timers for each player(A dies, procs SC, B C and D can still proc SC)
-Sparkling Hope and Rejuvenating Skin would use the HP/DPS of the ally for determining activation
-These would not stack with other Paladins- it'd pick the one with the most boosts available to give. This is a necessary restraining bolt

it was apparently a coding nightmare and is extremely likely to not happen

this was in amongst a bunch of other suggested changes, like adding heavenly trumpet

I think before it got basically rejected there was an extra effect of reducing all cooldowns by 10%(25s became 22.5s, 2s became 1.8s, etc)

so it was worth taking even if you were going solo

[neon abyss]

This would make every single node on paladin dependent on interactions with others there's no way you can balance this

[manic robin]

it would? it sounds fine to me

it does however still fall into the trap of making your build barely matter

a 5hp bbath gives just as much buff as a 300k ehp guardian

granting second chance to allied is actually pretty ok in my opinion, though it may warrant a duration nerf or a removal of the invinceability node

manachism would be amazing or other tanky builds while being useless for glassier people, and thats probably god

they should all get cleaning breeze on their 2nd spell

[edgy tiger]

If second chance could trigger on allies, even if the cd was shared, would be a lot better than current version where it only benefits the paladin itself

[manic robin]

unfortunately most creative buffs are likely to be hell to code

[timid ingot]

yeah. leadership is likely to never happen but i think having second chance do what leadership was meant to help it do would be fantastic

[edgy tiger]

as for other stuff, like sparkling hope might be too strong in groups and base dps difference will make it stronger or weaker on some classes, giving allies nearby you kb res just powercreeps ice sigil, and the others are reliant on taking damage which isnt that good.

[timid ingot]

It actually specified that you only got the defense bonus from tougher+mythril skin

as i said its super likely to never come but i think it speaks to the role paladin was meant to fill and still SORT OF does, being a party center

having multiple paladins not really work out on team comp is like...that's fine

[edgy tiger]

if you want multiple supports you can have lightbender and acolyte

[manic robin]

I just want the actual gear you're wearing to affect how well you can help the team

[timid ingot]

its the balance between giving it power enough to help itself vs giving it power to help others

cause wynn is a lot singleplayer

[manic robin]

besides just keeping you alive

[edgy tiger]

something like a paladin ability that scales on an id or mechanic you have?

[manic robin]

yeah I mean
guardian is like this, where you are tanking that damage, so you need to be tanky enough
thats where this #1445059142007132200 message came from
and just having like a 100% guardian temporarily or something like that would work too
you could also use healing efficiency or something on the overhealth? that could be nice

[edgy tiger]

healing efficiency on overhealth would only make casting it at lower values give more overhealth.
as for guardian, you could have some effect like that on provoke, given that provoke is the one team oriented node it has

[manic robin]

my idea of a tank in wynn, where gluing a boss is too OP, while not really helping block damage, is to make you have to actively work to use your stats to keep people who would otherwise get squashed alive when they are in tough situations

so ways of throwing your ehp to them

[timid ingot]

i had another idea that idk if it got implemented or could be, but that overhealth counted as health lost for sparkling hope/rejuv skin

[manic robin]

and as for this,
to be frank, you have 3 archetypes per class, just use a different one to level.
its an MMO I think there should be some abilities and archetypes built around teamwork

[edgy tiger]

ats want to make archetypes fun to play at low level too, if a player is told "use this archetype to level, then you can use whatever" it feels restrictive, and just not telling them would make players question balance. early game is where wynn loses a lot of players so its good to have strength early and late.
currently most archetypes are fine to level so it isnt a problem tho

[timid ingot]

you put it better than i could right now

[prime fractal]

At least for me when i started wynn i played with 2 other friends and the entire reason i chose warrior was because i wanted to be the tank in our team. I ended up just playing bmonk mostly since there was no point playing paladin

[edgy tiger]

idk when you started but back then paladin's strongest support was radiance which was able to be taken for bmonk anyway 💀 so yeah bmonk was better

[prime fractal]

Yup

[edgy tiger]

paladin support expanded a bit with emboldening and trumpet, while also making rad exclusive. and its pretty nice, tho you still need to rely on bakal grasp to use soemthing like eleventh hour since its basically an extra blue node worth of support and all.

[prime fractal]

I like the idea of giving 2nd chance to allies

Maybe it could be like something where you tank a fatal hit for someone with a cooldown

[edgy tiger]

apart from the obvious ooga booga war buff, its would feel so nice to save an ally from certain death with second chance, and even saving the entire team with it

paladin doing palading things = good

[celest ravine]

That is something I'd really want to add

-# Another thing is sharing mantles with allies

-# Note : None of this is guaranteed to ever happen

[cyan spire]

Double shield bash's damage 🥹

[edgy tiger]

as long as its not painful dev time i would like it

[celest ravine]

4000% nuke!!!

[cyan spire]

Ok don't you think that's a little underpowered

[celest ravine]

Yes. It should be 4x from what it is now

8000% nuke with 8 mantles

[edgy tiger]

paragon losing yet again

[cyan spire]

Trust make shield strike reduce mantle cooldown for every broken mantle you hit

[dawn urchin]

im not really a fan of second chance saving allies like yeah i get why and it would be good but its just another passive thing paladin achieves by existing

trumpet basically does the same thing but cooler and with more investment and input from the player

[eternal quarry]

also i think giving everyone a bajillion health bars in terms of ehp is a bit over the top just to match the also stupid amounts of atree healing on lbender & aco

[crimson osprey]

Aco is the issue

[split cargo]

-1 tentacle boom problem fixed

[crimson osprey]

[spare root]

@celest ravine are abilities that solely help allies and not yourself a thing that can/will be made?

[celest ravine]

Im not opposed to having more of those, however only as optional nodes to the side

-# Not on the main path

[spare root]

yeah ofc

[spare root]

wait there already are some?

[celest ravine]

Wait are there? I forgot ._.

[spare root]

I'm asking this cause I'm pretty sure that's not a thing?

for MIDs yes, but abilities I really don't think so?

[celest ravine]

Actually yeah I don't think there are any atm. At least ones that only affect allies

Most of them either come with some other minor thing iirc
-# Like provoke

[spare root]

yeah

[celest ravine]

Actually yeah on second thought

Having some secondary effect that still benefits yourself would probably always be included with any sort of support abilities
-# Or just the support affecting yourself

[cunning bison]

what about a guardian but capped by your overheal, like a node dedicated to mitigate dmg of a selected ally or affected by other skill that connects with them

[celest ravine]

So only active while you have overhealth?

[cunning bison]

mmmm mostly something like, if your allie recieve 100k dmg (an extreme example but just to take note), you redirect 15% of it, 15k, but if your overheal is of 10k, you only redirect that 10k because that dmg is only dealt to the overheal bar and not the hp bar

making overheal kinda like a shield for alllies

also, shouldn't be an aura, in order to not be AFKish

[celest ravine]

I feel like that'd just get a bit situational and complex

-# Just the guard mid on the tree / minor variation of it would be good enough imo

[cunning bison]

something like selecting an ally with something, could be the closest with trumpet, your overheal bar would recieve part of the dmg mitigated, if you don't have overheal or your overheal bar gets destroyed, you won't mitigate anything

[cunning bison]

the problem with this is that a lot of ppl would troll paladins, things like graid TCC would nuke pala even with overheal

[celest ravine]

That seems, pretty awful. Why wouldn't people just use the actual guard mid over that?
-# Also you wouldn't have much control over who even gets it, if it's just the closest person to you

[cunning bison]

because it could be coupled

[cunning bison]

could be closest by default and an aspect could increment overheal cap + allies selected or even a MID

that way you add even more MIDs dedicated to tanks, we only have less than 5

[celest ravine]

I'm just not entirely sure on something like that being reliant on overhealth ngl

[cunning bison]

the problem is that if it was something reliant on hp, a lot of ppl would abuse that

[celest ravine]

-# How would it interact with the other sources too?

[cunning bison]

like what sources?

[celest ravine]

Sorrow / Drain

[cunning bison]

TCC is the best example of guardian MID being trolled

[cunning bison]

you could make the ally get a buff, something like "holy ally", that buff would be the one redirecting the dmg, as long as the paladin has that overheal, it doesn't matter the source, they would mitigate the dmg of holy allies

or directly sinergize with that

we already have fallen sinergizing with sorrow

and is kinda fun to have

[celest ravine]

I'll just think about this all a bit later. It was just a simple idea anyways

-# Other methods of support other than damage redirection are still possible

[cunning bison]

yeah but like as far as i know, physical proyectile block and other ways of being tank doesn't work on wynn and wouldn't work rn as far as i know

being tank rn just rotates around provoke and guardian, there is nothing else

and a lot of ppl when they heard about overheal thought about it as a "shield" rather than a hp bar, seems to work great at that job since it doesn't interact with anything as hp, so it is seen as a shield

it seems weird to have something that works like a shield bar never have a MID that plays around shields as how is it seen compatible in other games

[umbral elk]

that's the real issue, palidin is based around having a group instead of solo

it should change some abilities to be based on the amount of people if it's difficult to have both

honestly provoke should just her removed

[edgy tiger]

provoke is a 2 ap -5 wscream node if solo

[prime fractal]

theres also a lot of team content and i think with 3 archetypes available we can afford to have paladin be less powerful solo

[umbral elk]

😭

"archtype bad" just play another one

[wispy cape]

"You like this, well too bad, play something else"

[prime fractal]

I don’t see the point of having every archetype be good solo. If you wanna play solo good for you but most of the stuff i play is team content and it’s really boring that there is not really anything like team compositions and instead everyone is just dps (and sometimes a healer)

[edgy tiger]

most archetypes are alr "good enough", paladin trades damage potential for more survivability, so i dont think it needs to be balanced at all to begin with.

[wispy cape]

Most of the stuff you play is team content ! 🙂 You said it perfectly !

• If you don't do a lot of raids (bc you're done with it or because it's not your thing idk)
• If you do world content (A.K.A most of the content outside lootruns)
• If you lootrun

Then Paladin isn't good

[past sleet]

It still is very good but ok

Its for example one of the best "playthrough" archetypes
Also very nice for huich/hich 😊

[prime fractal]

sadly i have friends 😔

[white patio]

an archtype should be good enough to stand on it's own

[prime fractal]

What makes you think that?

Why can it not be dependant on a team

The 2nd M in MMORPG stands for multiplayer

[wispy cape]

Dependant on a team to do nothing that much more valuable in team than any other archetype

woohoo the math is mathing

[white patio]

it can have team dependant stuff or stuff that works better with other players
but if everything is "only works with other players" and it's awful to play solo... why play it solo? don't forget that while there are people who join with a group of friends, theres also solo players (i would know, i am one)

[past sleet]

Well yes but wynn has always been more of a singleplayer friendly mmorpg

However I think paladin is really good solo so idk why these people think it aint

[cloud crescent]

Because 98% of the game is singleplayer

[languid hedge]

98% of the game is singleplayer friendly*

[dawn urchin]

its arguably harder to have a multiplayer experience in wynn than it is to have a solo experience

with stuff like quest instances and bosses being weird with multiple ppl

[cloud crescent]

and usually also pretty multiplayer unfriendly

[languid hedge]

Maybe years passing changed it but i had found early game questing and dungeons with a friend pretty straightforward

But i like that you can do a lot of leveling stuff with a friend

[prime fractal]

Same

[cloud crescent]

a lot of the more complicated quests don't work to well with multiplayer, or at least have some issues

[prime fractal]

For a whole lot of those your build / archetype doesn’t matter as well

[past sleet]

What.... You telling me I dont need 5m dps bug abuse build to beat Green Gloop?!

[mighty igloo]

Fruma will save paladin...

Churely it will come with more team-based content

Churely. ... ......

[warm slate]

quest bosses exist you know

[prime fractal]

Most of those are able to be done with a party

[umbral elk]

no