#Acolyte needs a proactive way to generate blood

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dense totem
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Hi, I think it's quite interesting how the Shatter bug is being handled.

Yes. I do agree it was stupid in how it worked. Quite weird how a refund mechanic was being exploited to essentially generate free blood.

However, I think the popularity of Shatter and its overall place in the meta really revealed something about how Acolyte is played: people want a proactive way to generate blood. Acolyte itself feels like a rather boring waiting game of maintaining EC and casting Aura to heal itself, often crutching entirely on Healing Efficiency to maintain enough Blood Pool economy to gain access to Blood Sorrow. The absolute prevalence of Double Totem (which, if general archetype balance philosophy is to be followed, is crutching way too much on a Summoner node to be able to maintain a semblance of proactive gameplay) shows that people really desire faster Blood Generation, and Single Totem Acolyte is not viewed as very viable.

Acolyte node usage from 2025-09-20 to 2025-10-15 (total 1054):
  Both (doubleTotem & totemicShatter): 31 (2.94%)
  Only doubleTotem: 877 (83.21%)
  Only totemicShatter: 54 (5.12%)
  Neither: 58 (5.50%)

^^ above information is skewed since people who play Shatter are more likely to be higher-level players who also are more likely to hide their statistics. Really just wanted to highlight the insane difference between default acolyte and some form of blood generation

Double Totem fixes a lot of Acolyte's base issues since, while it does double Blood Pool costs of Aura and Eldritch Call, gives plenty of benefits like:

  • Increasing # of targets for EC (by increasing tentacle count)
  • Amplifying Healing and Damage of Aura by 20% (2*(100-40) = 120%)
  • Increases overall Blood Pool Generation opportunities from Blood Rite
  • DOES NOT increase cost of Blood Sorrow (primary limiting factor of Single Totem)

This leads to a rather passive playstyle for Acolyte, in which in order to actually utilize Blood Sorrow (a massive 70 Blood Pool investment) -- which does not grant enough Overhealth to outheal Double Totem while simultaneously not having enough Blood Pool generation with single totem to consistently cast -- you must build high Healing Efficiency (since you don't have enough AP to get Fluid Healing as well) and it leads to a rather boring playstyle of sitting around waiting to refresh Eldritch Call and Blood Sorrow while Auraing to maintain yourself

Shatter (at least the gameplay loop) flipped Acolyte on its head. In exchange for vastly increased skill ceiling (managing two masks, giving extra inputs, etc) gave far superior flexibility and a huge increase in tactical reposition-ability(?), while pretty much maintaining the same or slightly less damage, and also increased the interactiveness

While I don't expect Shatter to make a return, since while it did offer a proactive playstyle, it also offered a way to cheat the economy, I would like to see some new method for generating blood on Acolyte (perhaps by increasing the amount of blood that Shatter itself generates so as to offer a real downside of an instantaneous health cut without reimplementing the bug, similar to how Regeneration is affected by it) that offers it a choice between a proactive gameplay style and a passive one, and doesn't make it rely entirely on a rather passive waiting playstyle that DTotem offers.

side note: its also super annoying that you have to forcibly end Eldritch Call by swapping off the weapon, which Shatter alleviated by allowing an uproot eject button

Edit: To clarify: I would like to maintain the current loop of a mobile generating state --> locking yourself down to use eldritch call

Edit: Bleeding offers 1.6 Blood Pool per second per mod only if the mob is in range, which is simply not enough compared to the 10 per second from double totem

versed monolith
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RETWEET

dusty canopy
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i liked and subscribed and i also hit the bell notification

dense totem
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Thank you

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sorry for the post being kind of rambly im trying to organize my thoughts but i am on like 3 hours of sleep

half bone
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theres just sadly no other good sources of bleeding, acolyte's other main blood generation

dense totem
valid idol
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daily pandamonium essay

dense totem
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my acolyte builds are constantly meleeing and the generation is pitiful at best

half bone
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ll sucks because mask is free damage

blood sorrow lost the ability to apply bleeding, so thats out
sanguine strike is your only source

dense totem
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not to call you out specifically but i am going to make a separate section regarding bleeding

versed monolith
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I want to add that people seem to be conflating Shatter with EC's Shatter Bug. Shatter was not removed, just the bug that made it OP was

valid idol
versed monolith
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the OG shatter generated 70-85 blood depending on your totem range, which I felt was the perfect amount. Nowdays it generates a consistant 64, which is not enough to sustain sorrow spam

dense totem
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i would genuinely like to see it take away like 1.5x the health and also max out or get close to maxing out your blood pool

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its at a really weird number where you have to like... cope with throwing two which massively nukes your health pool

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and also pretty much makes only reso viable with it

versed monolith
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yeah there a plethora of ways to tackle this issue

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its just a shame to see nothing put forward

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we're stuck in the loop of being unable to fix acolyte because ritu exists

dense totem
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idk i think its a cool gimmick for now until they rework ritualist if they gave it like 150 bp generation at the cost of 50-60% of your heatlh

fresh raven
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i think they really need to play around with shamans tree, dtotem and shatter seem to be pretty much entirely necessary for aco and im p sure shatter is necessary for summoner as well

versed monolith
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yet at the same time aco is very powerful, so (i think) most players dont want to see more CT effort put into acolyte

dense totem
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its not taken on summoner at all except for pbomb

fresh raven
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thats what it was, I dont play summoner but I knew it was for something

dense totem
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and pbomb is more ritualist than anything tbh

fresh raven
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I see

versed monolith
dense totem
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and also i mean it was a bug

versed monolith
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cuz the bug was absolutely superb, probably the best reso has ever felt

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it just didnt come with (as much of) the downsides that OG shatter had

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judging from the patch notes, CT wants us to utilize lifestream more but its hard without atree support

knotty sapphire
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Don't lose hope, a hotfix could drop and give us something...

bright salmon
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#liked

warm tartan
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#Liked #Retweeted #Subscribed

dense totem
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thanks my wonderful fans

warm tartan
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Your welcome Pandamonium

brittle pier
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panda deserves to be happy. sad panda = bad day 😠.

upper warren
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Yes pls... even pure dtotem (by far the most popular playstyle by the numbers) will feel worse with the new changes, because the ability design makes it feel like having 0 blood pool without already having overhealth from sorrow is a punishment for misplaying, not a part of the normal gameplay loop. (After all, if you play properly, you should never end up in that situation.) Yet now you're forced into that situation at the start of every fight.

Like compare aco with riftwalker. Both rely on consuming some extra resource to be useful (winded and blood pool). But riftwalker is designed to be in a state with 0 winded and it has tools to build winded (gust + flashfreeze). Meanwhile acolyte up until now has felt like it's designed to not have 0 blood pool and 0 overhealth, because with proper play you'll never end up in that situation once you build up blood pool, and when you're in that situation you have no practical tools to get out of it besides sitting in a corner with your totems or dropping yourself to 1% hp with shatter.

Either acolyte should be given tools to get itself out of that situation (and perhaps the other abilities should be changed so that ending up in that situation is a regular part of the gameplay loop for the archetype), or acolyte shouldn't be forced into that situation at all. But this middle ground doesn't really make sense.

warm tartan
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^

dense totem
dense totem
pearl sage
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I understand the appeal of subverting acolytes normal passive generation with shatter, but it's not designed to be played that way at any stage of the game. It could obviously get support for this in the future but acolytes power has to be modulated based on how fast it can generate it's necessary resource

tall mirage
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Ok but if you don’t want sorrow spam removing this is fine but why also nerf Reso base when the issue with Reso was that you could sorrow spam

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This is just another example of ct doing a double nerf when they could just do one or the other

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We saw this with warp/fatal and the winded removal and with hero/tcrack multiple times when they tried to kill fallen

royal cedar
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triple nerf with room resets

worldly siren
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truth supernova

storm scaffold
half bone
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you don't sustain blood sorrow, so thats part of your support capabilities and damage gone
you're somewhat forced to keep up ec/aura, so getting to blood sorrow is a big challenge (and not worth it for the damage/blood pool ratio imo)

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and then you realise you should just play summoner because it's a lot faster

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acolyte's fundamental problem is that it doesn't generate blood fast enough like this is why people take dtotem/shatter always

red quest
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no! you must play acolyte as intended to be! sorrow beam every 30 seconds as a powerful burst of attack and cast aura constantly to heal your teammates

pearl sage
half bone
half bone
# pearl sage yea

let me record a video rq to showcase just how much the loss in dps is like

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feat: my half-assed abso build

dense totem
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i mean yeah i can see that blood was supposed to be a limiting factor but with the new room changes base aco which already feels like a waiting game feels like even more of a waiting game

bright salmon
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160 blood pool by just existing within the vicinity of a big mac

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proactively following my big mac

half bone
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"this file exceeds the 100mb limit

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i had 14k orbs saved for just this moment 😭

red quest
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upload to medal or sum shit

half bone
red quest
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ah

half bone
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it's worth noting that my build isn't the best but the point still stands

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(i'm running vindicator and not even using a necklace)

versed monolith
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not wanting shatter spam for normal reliks is fine ig, but for Reso that's like the entire point

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the item itself was tuned to emphasize BS usage this same patch

warm tartan
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I just now noticed that pure aco is like

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almost completely non functional

upper warren
# pearl sage I didn't say that acolytes blood generation without these abilities is adequate,...

ik this isn't exactly what you said, but also it seems like part of the concern is that blood pool serves no purpose if you can spam abilities anyways. I don't think that's true, though. In practice, blood pool functions as a way to force you to maintain your rotation properly and to punish you if you mess up: you consume a ton of blood pool each time you cast your spells, and you then need to use the overhealth you get to regen the blood pool before your overhealth decays or else you're in trouble. That's what makes acolyte fun (and difficult) to play!

I think most aco players would agree that blood pool works better as a way of punishing you for messing up a mechanically difficult rotation than as a way of just slowing down your spell casts and forcing you to not use your kit while you wait for blood pool to regen. Maybe this isn't what was intended, but it's just more fun and makes for a better archetype.

dense totem
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its moreso how it feels to have a proactive option and how in my opinion its a healthy playstyle with official support (and more importantly a real downside)

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part of the reason why shatter was so overbearing in my opinion was because it basically gave you a way to get blood without sacrificing any health (the amoutn of health lost was pretty much decided based on how fast you could spam totem to max out bp)

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and not actually because you had much more blood than dtotem

versed monolith
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Haven't heard a good reason for the nerfs

dense totem
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also if it was like actually so "op" and a real balance nightmare it shoudl logically follow that shatter is vastly overperforming double totem in both damage and play rate right? but neither of these things are true

versed monolith
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also the fact that its was publicly known yet went unfixed for months and months

warm tartan
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If it gave you the same amount of blood while taking the same amount of hp that getting that blood normally would take it would be fine in my opinion

pearl sage
versed monolith
pearl sage
dense totem
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i will say i don't actually think blood is a real limiting resource on acolyte

pearl sage
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I was not aware that it was literally duping blood until I tested it myself after I asked for your dm

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I have just been that busy doing other things

dense totem
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yes it does prevent you from spamming auras explicitly but everything else is over time and doesn't benefit from spamming them

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which i think is a testament to its design

versed monolith
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I can say that many CT knew of this issue, it should've gotten to you within the span of 6 months

half bone
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at this rate, the raid meta is going to shift to classes who don't need to wait to get their dps

versed monolith
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seems odd that internal communication didn't get that done

half bone
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all you can really do as acolyte is get your 20% strength buff out and watch as your 3 other teammates kill the boss

versed monolith
half bone
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as you get punished for playing the game by having your main resource (and thus your dps) get reset

warm tartan
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How long does it take to build blood pool even

dense totem
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its like 10% per second

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+1.6% per mob bleeding + blood rite

pearl sage
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It may have even been on a to do list somewhere and got lost among the hundreds of other things we're doing 🤷

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its not really odd or surprising when you consider how broad our job is. Obviously when its your favourite archetype you know all about it

warm tartan
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With blood pool reseting at the start of every room it will take ~15-18 seconds to get to a point where you can comforatably have ecall and blood sorrow active assuming you dont get any blood from teammates 🥴

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First nol phase, first tna phase and sometimes the entire tcc/notg boss are shorter than that

pearl sage
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part of the shorter fights is exactly due to keeping resources though

warm tartan
pearl sage
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its making resources that have build up actually mean something

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Content Team Design Note

Some archetypes can become incredibly strong after building up their resources. While this is unproblematic in most cases, this can present issues for content where resources can be generated before entering combat, making the player have an immense power surge at the start. This leads to issues such as bosses being killed far faster than intended and is generally unhealthy for the combat balance of the game.

To reduce the impact of this and standardize archetype performance within challenges, we believe it best to make all archetypes start out on equal footing at the beginning of combat challenges.

We know that this change might impact some archetypes more than others, and so we will be closely monitoring the impact of this change and adjust abilities as necessary.

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We can't hope to balance the power of a resource based archetype in these competitive scenarios when its buildup is irrelevant

warm tartan
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It seems like the archetypes are still balanced around always having their resources at the start of a room/boss

half bone
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I can see the meta dps becoming boltslinger/trickster/riftwalker now dps

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they've got short buildups to their dps with basically no downtime

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fallen is too slow since no paladin/acolyte to give overheal

warm tartan
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You cant keep them competitive with other archetypes by making them have a 15 second delay on being able to play the game while also making the built-up power lower 😭

pearl sage
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We know that this change might impact some archetypes more than others, and so we will be closely monitoring the impact of this change and adjust abilities as necessary.

Also remember that "playing the game" is not the same as "playing the game with my resource maxed out so I am 100% effective"

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building a resource up is part of the gameplay of certain archetypes

tall mirage
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If this is the case make the bosses all have a 10-20 second animation when you enter boss room

warm tartan
versed monolith
tall mirage
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You enter nol and orphion immediately begins attacking you and you’re like half health because of blood pool

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Maybe instead of the skippable cutscene for orphion just make it spawn you in and make it unskippable

versed monolith
pearl sage
# tall mirage If this is the case make the bosses all have a 10-20 second animation when you e...

This is just a silly way to revert the change we just made lol.

Archetypes that need to build up some kind of meter or resource to work at full effectiveness should have to actually build that meter up to work at full effectiveness.

The resource may as well not exist if the standard behaviour is to always be at max resource. It is also a really good way to reign in the excessive gap between average players and highly skilled players to a more reasonable degree

versed monolith
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I like notg and tna because you can position yourself in the room before boss spawns

tall mirage
pearl sage
worldly siren
tall mirage
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You’re just asking people to stop playing acolyte

tall mirage
worldly siren
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no

pearl sage
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Its just a fact that we don't want to skew the balance of archetypes based on aesthetic decisions and creative liberties that people designing these piece of content add to them

tall mirage
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Have you ever played acolyte in nol? Serious question

warm tartan
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😭

tall mirage
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It is genuinely the worst experience I have playing that raid

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And now you want to do that for every raid

half bone
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solely beause saying "oh hey screw acolyte specifically"

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and i know it screws everyone over but acolyte lives and dies by it's blood

worldly siren
pearl sage
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one reason acolyte feels bad is because cutscenes clear some things and not others which is now much more equal across abilities

tall mirage
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Acolyte is literally just early game totem tick damage when it doesn’t have blood

pearl sage
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another reason is that the boss dies far too quickly because of this insane high end

dense totem
half bone
pearl sage
dense totem
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and the entire gameplay of dtotem just feels like sitting still and waiting for my ec bsorrow to come back

tall mirage
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The changes only screws acolyte

dense totem
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theres no repositioning, no real thought, pretty low agency

tall mirage
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All the other classes have no problems

pearl sage
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I dont think this is really productive when I'm just constantly repeating things from the changelog that appear to have not been read or understood 😭

Content Team Design Note

Some archetypes can become incredibly strong after building up their resources. While this is unproblematic in most cases, this can present issues for content where resources can be generated before entering combat, making the player have an immense power surge at the start. This leads to issues such as bosses being killed far faster than intended and is generally unhealthy for the combat balance of the game.

To reduce the impact of this and standardize archetype performance within challenges, we believe it best to make all archetypes start out on equal footing at the beginning of combat challenges.

We know that this change might impact some archetypes more than others, and so we will be closely monitoring the impact of this change and adjust abilities as necessary.

half bone
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i think this just screws over paladin as well sort of?

warm tartan
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you cant do anything other than just waiting before you have blood pool, the archetype is very clearly designed to have blood pool up at the start of fights (unless its just meant to feel terrible?)

worldly siren
versed monolith
tall mirage
worldly siren
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it honestly messes up ssurge fallen more than pala

warm tartan
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Palamonk gets hit kind of

worldly siren
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does pressuremonk take ssurge

warm tartan
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Yeah

worldly siren
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🥀

tall mirage
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Is the goal to make raids take 10 minutes?

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Even with the insta watched currently tna still takes 4 minutes for like 2-3 le

pearl sage
# pearl sage I dont think this is really productive when I'm just constantly repeating things...

Again:

Content Team Design Note

Some archetypes can become incredibly strong after building up their resources. While this is unproblematic in most cases, this can present issues for content where resources can be generated before entering combat, making the player have an immense power surge at the start. This leads to issues such as bosses being killed far faster than intended and is generally unhealthy for the combat balance of the game.

To reduce the impact of this and standardize archetype performance within challenges, we believe it best to make all archetypes start out on equal footing at the beginning of combat challenges.

We know that this change might impact some archetypes more than others, and so we will be closely monitoring the impact of this change and adjust abilities as necessary.

worldly siren
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you can literalyl get like 2:40 without phaseskip

tall mirage
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graid boss cannot go under 1 minutes without phase skip

worldly siren
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so there are 3 rooms before boss

tall mirage
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Yeah and it’s rng if you get the fast rooms

pearl sage
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I genuinly dont know if you're reading the same changelog as me because most of the questions im seeing are answered in this message and other things have been clarified afterwards either in this thread or elsewhere, sometimes to the exact same people that ask the same thing again. So please read up.

worldly siren
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you can get sub4 with berry tree voidmatter

tall mirage
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Tcc you get golem and your run time doubles

versed monolith
tall mirage
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You can get sub 3

worldly siren
tall mirage
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But that’s like a 1/20 raids thing

dense totem
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why are we turning this into tna time measuring contest

worldly siren
tall mirage
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On average you’re doing 3-4 minutes

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And tna rewards are very lackluster

brittle pier
worldly siren
fluid flax
tall mirage
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I know that acolyte is like incredibly good for nol but double totem is literally rage inducing to play

dense totem
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its just boring idk

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dtotem is really good in groot and i still dont want to play it

half bone
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you know
wynncraft is an mmoarpg

tall mirage
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Wynncraft is a sandbox for devs

fluid flax
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i don’t think building up blood at the start of the fight is interesting at all you just run away for a bit and press aura or abuse the fact that someone decided to pick fallen to instantly get all your setup done in 2 milliseconds

red quest
worldly siren
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who r u

dense totem
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idk as someone who has like played both and tried both there is genuinely no damage difference

red quest
dense totem
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if shatter blood gen somehow breaks acolyte then dtotem should be considered the same

worldly siren
# red quest who r u

no that was just the most random nothingburger statement ever and idk what you were trying to say

versed monolith
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dw you can still play normal shatter

red quest
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double is better looking in dummy and thats all it matters

versed monolith
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whats your damage per screenshot on dt reso i wanna see

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I think i peaked 1.7m on shatter

warm tartan
dense totem
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it does kinda standardize archetype performance

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as long as they balance it somehow (i literally cannot see how holy power can feel good and reset at the start without breaking the rest of game balance) it should be fine

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unless they mean implement nol cutscene rules to everything

worldly siren
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you could just take it as a case by case issue as there are archetypes that become gamebreaking like trick and a ton of archetypes that are relatively unaffected

warm tartan
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all this change really does is force you to afk in a corner for 10-15 seconds at the start of every fight on aco which i think is a objectively bad change

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that is the worst possible way to nerf something

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and no more 8 cloning on trickster/instant overhealth from paladin

ebon rampart
tall mirage
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I don’t like how they basically turned trickster into fallen 2.0 though

red quest
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burst playstyle

tall mirage
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Burst sucks to play and trickster is like insanely glassy and has no resistance nodes

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At least fallen gets a bunch of movement speed and brink

dense totem
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i dunno i think reworking twisted tether into a more proactive blood generation node could really give base acolyte some better use cases

ebon rampart
dense totem
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i forget which node gives blood off bleeding as well

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actually fair enough

red quest
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lashing lance

dense totem
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divine intellect i better see leaks in my dms if you ever turn cyan steamhappy

tall mirage
worldly siren
red quest
tall mirage
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And you kinda need clones to do damage

worldly siren
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trick aspect

warm tartan
tall mirage
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Aspect gives you 5+1 max

versed monolith
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please salted i need this, my trick is kinda cloneless

tall mirage
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Stork it’s 6 max now

warm tartan
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i keep forgetting 4 clones isnt the base

tall mirage
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Cuh

half bone
dense totem
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i know

half bone
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that was actually broken

knotty sapphire
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Well, in general at least for a time

royal cedar
pearl sage
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Hello?

wheat marsh
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Fail tag, srry

plucky sky
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Downvoot

plucky sky
mortal lintel
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The devs trying to patch out circumventing the buildup gameplay of Acolyte when there is no buildup gameplay is certainly an entertaining dance

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ong add Furious Effigy to an armor piece and suddenly Acolyte active gameplay goes up a ton

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maybe take the Cold Wave approach and put it on an accessory for more flexibility