Buff Quadruple Bash

[obtuse sleet]

Since massive bash and thunderclap got buffed in the latest patch I also think quadruple bash deserves a buff as well since it is just simply put a really bad ability. I don't think Fallen can be expected to use massive bash when quadruple bash is useless.
Boiling blood is also deserving of a rework/buff but that's a topic for another post.

[willow escarp]

Quad bash isnt useless. It almost dou les your bash damage

[obtuse sleet]

I am pretty sure I was talking with someone who did the math and turns out that its a dps loss

[willow escarp]

Yeah if you spellspam hard.

[obtuse sleet]

doesn't matter I think
I am pretty sure its just always a dps loss

[willow escarp]

Mmmh
Base is 2 bash anims + 1 wait for 2x dmg
Quad is 4 bash anims +1.5x wait for a bit less dmg (15/17)

So 0.1s less per 2 bashes (i think?) Ig that can work outt
I didnt consider in my headmath that you do get no wait at the start

[opal grove]

quad bash suxxx

[willow escarp]

Mana is fake fr

[uncut zinc]

How lol. Double Bash base is 170% spellx2=340, so quad bash is 150x4=600

Not to mention its even stronger with upgrades like crushing blow

[obtuse sleet]

on paper yes
but I am pretty sure if you have bash almost always active double bash is simply stronger

[obtuse sleet]

also crushing blow helps double bash as well

[uncut zinc]

Yes but it makes the relative strength of quad better (since quad is a bit under twice the dmg, while the dmg increase from crushing blow is double that of for double bash)

[uncut zinc]

But what makes it that way, it does more dmg per cast, and its twice as fast so the spell itself lasts the same time

[obtuse sleet]

I am too stupid for this but it is simply very bad I am ngl

[uncut zinc]

I mean from the 3 seconds o spent reading that thread it looks like their argument is that you don't get all 4 hits because you cancel it with another bash cast

And i kinda fail to see the point, just don't cancel it...

Thats like saying arrow bomb sucks because if you spam it fast enough it never actually hits

[obtuse sleet]

look at the graph

I don't even think it has anything to do with how fast you spell cast

[uncut zinc]

What graph?

If you mean the image you forwarded idk what they're dividing by

[winged vine]

cast time

.25 is animation time and the .65 is the delay between bashes

i think

[uncut zinc]

Doesn't the node say it casts twice as fast

[winged vine]

yea but it only affects the delay between bashes and not the actual bash

[uncut zinc]

Even 45*2≠65

[winged vine]

lemme see if i can find some context

[uncut zinc]

But maybe the node is just wrong idk

[winged vine]

but yea i think zeny confirmed it was only bash delay and not the actual entire thing

quad bash is just genuinely never worth it for endgame content

[uncut zinc]

Yeah so the 0.25 should be fixed, but here even the bash delay isn't halved

[obtuse sleet]

look at any bash cut or generalist fallen tree
none of them take quadruple bash because its simply put very bad

[winged vine]

idk how the numbers were generated to be honest

[uncut zinc]

Thats not a very compelling argument. Maybe it's good and some nodes are even better, or maybe the builds just have enough sustain that its not particularly good

[obtuse sleet]

you are failing to see the point

[winged vine]

i mean quad bash is an incredibly strong early game node

[uncut zinc]

Whats undeniable is a single cast does almost twice the dmg, that sounds pretty strong for a node high up on the tree with no reqs

Even if it's not good on builds where you can cast bash every second

[winged vine]

yea it’s pretty good for what it does it’s just not very good for high cps spam

though i think its a bit sad bash basically is the same at endgame but now it has more range

but also fallen does enough damage i don’t think bash needs to be buffed atp

[obtuse sleet]

I mean if that's the case then maybe boiling blood just deserves a big buff then idk
or just a new bash node for fallen

[obtuse sleet]

for non upper scream or generalist?

[winged vine]

yeah?

though i think if you really look at it fallen endgame tree is like

9 ap leftover

it’s pretty depressing

[obtuse sleet]

upper bash feels kind of bad imo
maybe its just cause I am used to upper scream damage
but I find it stupid how fallen is reliant on bmonk nodes but idk

[winged vine]

u usin the wrong weapon you need bbath

you can’t play upperbash without it

well i think alka is playable but i haven’t really tested it yet

[obtuse sleet]

I mean annie earth thunder weapon
any tree could do damage with it

[obtuse sleet]

alka is decent for upper bash

but no other weapons can play it well pretty much

[uncut zinc]

Well it has high -bash cost so it does work particularly well

[obtuse sleet]

well yeah but you shouldn't need a particular weapon for bash to be good imo

[winged vine]

i think it’s playable on other things it’s just strictly worse than upperscream

[winged vine]

ok according to divine intellect the 45 and 65 numbers are hand recorded delays

and .25 is the base animation timing for the first bash only

so i think the description is just lying gg

but i assume it’s because it’s actually .25 animation + delay and the delays are .2 and .4 respectively

it’s more like .25*4 + .2*3

and .25*2 + .4

[uncut zinc]

Yeah that would make sense

[willow escarp]

This ignores the little known fact that spells cost mana lol

Funny tho

I meant in like its not useful info on its own for atrength
Funny tho

[obtuse sleet]

mana doesn't mean anything on fallen when you have blood pact

[uncut zinc]

It does tho, it affects how long you can cast before you need to exit corrupted, wait for cd and reccorupt

So lower costs is less downtime

Which can make a big diff

[obtuse sleet]

thanks
real clever observation

[uncut zinc]

And quad bash is not exclusive to blood pact builds

[obtuse sleet]

quad bash not mana based though

[uncut zinc]

The whole assumption on dmg is the dps if the spell (from cast to end). But to maintain double bash up you need to cast it more often than to keep quad bash up which is more mana

The dmg per mana is much higher on quad bash

[winged vine]

to be fair it would be a compelling argument if fallen cared about mana

but yeah it is more mana efficient it’s just not great for much

is the whole purpose of the node to be used early game then dropped later

[uncut zinc]

Its good on low sustain builds

Like hic!

[obtuse sleet]

not true
because quadruple bash almost ends up having the same uptime as double bash because it casts faster

[willow escarp]

Its also nice when you dont wanna click as much admittedly

[willow escarp]

Double bash 0.9s
Quad bash 1.6s ? (If the 0.25 animation duration checks out)

[winged vine]

you should really change the description i can’t lie

very misleading

[willow escarp]

Mmh

[uncut zinc]

No, thats the only reason your formula gives a lower value, they're dividing by total cast time

If they do have the same uptime, then quad bash does 1.76x dmg and is op af

[lyric solar]

hi!!! it's me who made that desmos screenshot
here's a spreadsheet of a more detailed look into bash
the animation time is always 0.25s (tclap does not change this despite not having that animation)
the base delay time is 0.4s (this is the reducable part)
any bash successive to the first one is subject to the delay, and all bashes are subject to the animation time

personally i dont think qbash needs a buff but rather is kinda just put on the wrong archetype when put into context of the current fallen atree