#Skill point requirements are too harsh

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

polar quail
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Mythics (and generally end-game gear) usually have ridiculously high skill point requirements that require you to build around the item itself and not the stats you want for your character. That means that to play the weapon you want, you're going to have to dedicate not only most of your skill points but also specific armor pieces to help you reach the required skill points to use it.

The problem comes in two parts: now that most of your skill points are gone, you're not going to be able to equip all armors you want. If you have mostly strength and dexterity, you probably will be forced to equip either way lower level gear or armors that follow that skill's 'philosophy' which usually makes it impossible to make an all rounder build (can't go for a defensive chestplate if all your points are gone in strength and dexterity). The second issue is that this usually results in you no longer putting skill points towards what you want your character to do, but towards items.

I understand the game is balanced around those requirements at the moment, but that doesn't stop it from being frustrating that I'm no longer putting skill points where I want my character's to be. On top of that, not all skills were created equal (agility and defense are not very popular for a reason), so being pushed to invest heavily in skills I do not want just because I'm looking for a specific MiD or piece of gear feels bad.

I don't know exactly how this could be fixed. Maybe toning it down so that you're not forced to dump 90+ skill points in a stat for a single item, but that would have big implications on balance since it would make a lot more builds possible.

TL;DR: Title

indigo elbow
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yeah that's the point, more restrictions so that you can't just use anything you want

polar zinc
crystal frost
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gert swingpoke cuttyrock 😭

polar quail
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That or you know, you spend 1500 hours doing profs to have gear you'd actually want that doesn't mess with your skill points too much

hazy current
violet hatch
polar quail
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"item requirements take player agency over skill points" -> suggests morph set, eating up 160 skill points out of 200

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on top of, well, suggesting the morph set

slow osprey
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Wouldn't this just result in a lot of absurd builds that will just overall ruin the balance of the game

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Part of the item system is limiting what you can put on, so that those things don't happen

polar quail
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As I mentionned in the post: yes. As it is, just lowering them would not solve the problem because of that

swift rampart
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Also you can make an alrounder build for every weapon except divzer

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You will just not have insane damage or insane ehp

polar quail
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The all-rounder build was an example, it's not impossible, just made unnecessarily difficult by the skill point reqs

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the point is player agency and how being forced to invest 90-95% of skill points just for gear doesn't feel good
and, although a big part of creating builds at the moment, doesn't end up giving you a lot of variety in what you can use

green estuary
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theres better ways to solve the variety issue

polar quail
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i mean yeah more items could be made, but you can't expect those in bulk and they create a nightmare of balancing that's still going to rely on that system and keep making builds messy

green estuary
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im not talking about more items they should just like actually balance the current items

polar quail
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aah, gotcha

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I mean, ponder for a moment if skill points effects (as they are) could be separated from the requirements (and those have their own points, earned at the same pace)

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It's clearly not a solution anyone should implement, but how much would it actually affect the current builds while giving you total freedom to spend those 200 points how you want?

green estuary
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anyways skill point reqs on like rainbow mythics are a bit high

polar quail
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It's not that I'm not thrilled to put 100+ points into agi for a mythic, but i'd rather have those partly into defence at least if you catch my drift

green estuary
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well thats kinda the point

slow osprey
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-# Especially mythic weapons

swift rampart
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If you really want to have agi and def just rainbow slap it

polar quail
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i get the limitation, i'm just of the opinion that it's too high

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building with air items means following the general philosophy around those builds, which may not be what you want for your build
as much as it would create more OP builds, it would create a hundred times more mid-to-good ones and makes picking gear less of a headache for the casual player

swift rampart
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If you don‘t want to build around air items, don‘t use an air weapon

slow osprey
swift rampart
polar quail
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going into weathered specifically, the MiD would be a big point, but not all mythics have those

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maybe you're after a certain ID or two

polar quail
green estuary
polar quail
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true that

proud frost
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Is tldr builds are to hard to make

polar quail
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not quite

regal relic
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Me when I can't run morph warp

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anyway I think mythics that focus on just one element have every reason to have high skill point requirements and it isn't hard to build high skill points either

swift rampart
smoky coyote
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If the restrictions werent as high why wouldnt a build juat equip every slot with the best performing item for that slot

polar zinc
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Nah I get were op is coming from I wanna be able to run moontower divzer and it's a shame the reqs are so high and prevent it 😨

polar quail
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Is that all you've come up with after 4 attempts at typing in this thread

untold thorn
polar quail
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Anyways, no, that's not the point! I'm not calling for removal of skill requirements, I'd be more than happy if those were their own system with the exact same amount of points for the most part
my main gripe is not being able to spend the stat points for their effects and they just become a consequence of what I want to equip

untold thorn
polar zinc
crystal frost
untold thorn
polar quail
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there could be other ways of limiting what items you can equip without interfering with investing in those stats freely

polar zinc
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Restrictions breeds creativity other wise people will run the same 4 items that will be best in slot because there are much more loose limitations to wearing them. Not to mention many of the elements have their own weakness and strengths for the most part (tho some might be stronger than others rn).

polar quail
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going back to what is said directly in the message above you: yes, absolutely, that's correct, and i'm not for nuking those limitations
i'm for the direct benefit of those skill points outside elemental damage (% damage, % crit chance, spell cost reduction & max mana, % damage reduction and % chance to dodge) being easier to adjust without getting it all blocked by two items in your build

median root
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why has this thread not been closed?

polar quail
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because there's a discussion to engage in, i believe

median root
polar quail
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i understand there's some people taking the piss and i understand why, since i failed to formulate my point properly and gave bad examples in hindsight, but I still believe there's something worth talking about here

elder torrent
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Choice is kind of the enemy unfortunately I fear?

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At least to a certain point in a build

daring citrus
elder torrent
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The issue is builds in wynncraft mostly matter in sofar as they are useful to what you want to do for most people

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And in that way there's always going to be end up some best/most convenient options

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And they will naturally attract people to be used because they're well, the most convenient / efficient

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So players will end up using all of their choice to focus towards the same set of pretty optimal builds

polar quail
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that's always going to be the case, yeah, whether that is more or less limitations on the gear you can have or just the skill points

median root
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the entire build system relies on skill points being restrictive and having to choose only 2-3/5 skill points to focus on.

Imagine if almost all core items had reqs of 40 instead of 90+, that would allow you to get all SP from just assigning skill points, and allow for any item combination, effectively removing the entire build system from the game.

daring citrus
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@polar quail I'm just curious but what builds do you use?

elder torrent
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Well yes but the point is, more skill points left over post choosing your build means sp distributions are funnily going to end up more similar accross players

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Because players will use all of their choice to go for the most optimal sp distribution

median root
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More choice in this case just means less reason to choose.

polar quail
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Is that such a bad thing, however?

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Like, genuinely, is it? Some players will prefer it some other way, people that follow a meta will always do so anyways

elder torrent
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It makes SP kind of a noobtrap lol

swift rampart
elder torrent
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The issue with big choice where there is a pretty clear optimal thing is that new people just won't know what's optimal

polar quail
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Going off-meta isn't a noob trap, part of the fun is making something yourself and making it work

elder torrent
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And it creates big variance which is the scourge of my existence working on raids

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Raids are probably one of the things in wynn where you can see the problem of big variance right now

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There's party finder parties that actively struggle to take down some of the raid bosses just stats wise

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And there's parties sending them to hell in 30s

polar quail
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Then is that an issue of good builds being too good or players not being railroaded into the ideal build that just works?

median root
# polar quail Is that such a bad thing, however?

Have you not seen the dozen websites dedicated to building, or the channel in every single wynncraft discord dedicated to building? The only reason any of those exist is to theory-craft around SP caps.

elder torrent
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I will say, this is most likely a purely theoretical exercise

polar quail
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It sort of became one, yes

elder torrent
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because a major rework of SP reqs on items is kind of out of the question

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It holds together too much of the wynn building system

polar zinc
median root
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SP caps mean that the best items can NEVER be used together, meaning you're always working with something sub-optimal and the difference between good and bad items can be higher without disrupting balance.

removing SP as a, (meaningful), restriction means that the best items can almost always/always be used together, which means anything less than the best becomes useless.

polar quail
elder torrent
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But yeah I think what you kind of have to see is, if our goal is to provide the players with incentives to try truly different playstyles then funnily giving them a lot of freedom fails exactly at doing that

polar quail
polar quail
elder torrent
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Because almost all players end up using their freedom to optimise (why wouldn't they!) and if you have lots of continual freedom they'll use that to arrive all pretty much at exactly the same answer

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So different playstyles that are actually being used end up being "peaks" in power graphs separated by not-continually-crossable valleys of sp restrictions

median root
# polar quail this still isn't calling for SP cap removals

like I said earlier, a 40 point Req. is the point at which it becomes truly meaningless, (even ignoring items contributing), and with Reqs of 100+ you're already able to get 2-3 unique Skill point reqs met. Reducing the peak even down to mid 70s is going to effectively remove requirements.

polar quail
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I keep saying it, this is about the stats being given to the player through those skills and not trying to change the limits

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I get it with thg though, i didn't consider everyone would just try to squeeze the same SP config even if it didn't affect what you can equip/use

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I don't think I would, but then again he is right that everyone gravitates towards the "meta" so it would just end up not making a lick of difference and punish people that don't know what the best loadout is for SP

median root
polar quail
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that's what it started with, if you kept reading you'd see my stance has changed over the course of, you know, debating over it

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didn't help that a few people decided to drop by to just take the piss, but what can you do

swift rampart
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I don‘t think separating the stat buffs from the requirement stats works either (that is your current stance from what i understand)
That would defeat the point of something like divzer, cuz then you could get ehp since the item only reduces the requirement cost.
It would require a full scale rework of probably every item, and make the system more confusing for new players, which i think is just not feasible, especially for an issue this trivial

tawdry geyser
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in a game with a class building system as complex as wynncraft, restricting player choice is kind of a necessary evil to ensure that more than a dozen items even get used

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because the more leeway you give, the more people will gravitate towards the 1 or 2 builds that are just objectively better than everything else

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centerpiece item = stricter reqs, lowering reqs makes this centerpiece item more accessible and powercreeps other items with lower reqs in the same slot

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ex. an item like trift has 120 int req to limit how many other powerful items you can equip because of how strong the mID sorcery is

analog turret
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And the bigger yummier awesomer pizza is the mythic build that prevents you from getting pasta on the side (restricting your skill points)

desert heart
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Every build should have 100str dex this seems balanced

idle pelican
ebon haven
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Mythics (and generally end-game gear) usually have ridiculously high skill point requirements that require you to build around the item itself and not the stats you want for your character.

lol

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close thread

vital vortex
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agility and defense are not very popular for a reason

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no what 🥀

crystal frost
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There is a reason for it

modest locust
foggy granite
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I will say: In my attempt to learn how to build a damaging paladin build around Idol on Wynnbuilder:

Building is insanely difficult when you have to sacrifice so many skill points around an item, and slowly realize why you can't... just make a build

ebon haven
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well just get better at class building?

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you already have so many resources already

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sugo builds the class build channels and whatever

foggy granite
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I was trying to build around 1 mythic, and I couldn't find any items on Wynnatlas that would help reduce the skill point cost

ebon haven
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its largely trial and error

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sort and exclude by skill points

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or use sp slap slop items

foggy granite
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I tried that, and the second I wanted to put something to help HPR or do more Spell Damage, Wynnbuilder would complain that too much SP is being used

ebon haven
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yeah so solve that problem

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or if you cant you need to rethink the build 😹

foggy granite
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I tried to get help in the class builds channel but they all just told me to use sugo's builds instead of helping me figure out a build that can help Paladin do damage

ebon haven
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first of all paladin doesnt do damage

main zephyr
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Reject the people who demand high damage, embrace jank

foggy granite
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Besides, being able to do damage and survive is the only way I make a good beginner build for raids that I'm supposed to be learning

ebon haven
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if you wanna be tanky then you arent gonna be dealing much damage

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simple as

main zephyr
ebon haven
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of course there are some exceptions

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doesnt mean they are balanced though

main zephyr
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Since when does wynncrafters care about game balance if it benefits them?

ebon haven
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because FA is my opp

main zephyr
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Uh, FA might mean something different to you then it does to me, otherwise im not sure how that applies

ebon haven
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so basically titanomachia is literally hitler

main zephyr
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I mean i dont use it

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On immo I use alpenglow

swift rampart
ebon haven
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no really

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nerf dat shit bru 😂

devout raptor
ebon haven
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each and every one of them

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they can tell you "i was just following build guides" but they are guilty of sin beyond redemption

devout raptor
modest locust
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Sugo building builds guide when frfr

fossil needle
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whats up with the sudden influx of great feedback threads

daring citrus
pale ledge
lyric mirage
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fire items are hella overtuned gotta agree

(and trick)

ebon haven
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screenshotting this for future use

bleak arch
dense inlet
daring citrus
dense inlet
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Keep the vitriol to yourself

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And also don’t compare anyone to hitler…

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You’d think that is common sense