A detailed rundown of why Level Scaling Abuse is unhealthy for the game

[scenic oriole]

tbh, new items and new crafted items will be a reason, but if AP loaning with lower level class will be stronger in raids, then why would you use max level class? it literally takes away my ability to enjoy new content properly

also, guild raids take a mental toll on you, like they are kinda challenging, so you get tired if you do them for hours a day, but... if you just oneshot everything, it gives you an advantage of getting tired way slower

^my experience

[merry wharf]

Did you kinda just say exactly how loaned ap changes your raids. You don't get access to anything you couldn't normally get (aspects, tomes, etc) but you get them faster.

[scenic oriole]

yes you get access to higher damage and unique builds + AP combinations, that you couldn't get access to otherwise

its literally paying for more damage

[merry wharf]

And you pay for raw emeralds with shares or pay for more mob spawns with totems or more exp with bombs, I don't like level scale abuse to begin with but ap loaning isn't more "p2w" than other stuff that is liked

[sinful trench]

the argument is that it gives you advantages in the process, not that it gives you more rewards - this might not literallly make you "win more" in the traditional sense, but it's still harmful and a bad precedent to set

.

[shrewd narwhal]

i still dont understand why you are ignoring the blatant fact that it gives you an absurd statistic advantage

[sinful trench]

the "mythic weapon (AP loaning)" isn't literally making emeralds shower from the sky, but it's obviously still a bad precedent to set and it's a different category of p2w from what's already in the game

[sage scarab]

just because it's accessible through shares doesnt make it any better

real money was exchanged for those shares to be put on TM. even if a player buys it with LE there was still money exchanged to make your low level builds unreasonably stronger.

[quick owl]

Call me selfish but i don’t really care to discuss the other p2w in the game, just keep it out of raids

[sage scarab]

Once again, Salted said Loaned AP would be monitored in strength when it came to raids. This does not feel like monitoring at all

[scenic oriole]

did you missed my earlier point entirely? you can still get access to ALL those things (builds, mobs, gaining xp etc.) without paying, just at a slower rate

[sinful trench]

just because a feature isn't absolutely drop kicking a game into oblivion (which to be clear, AP loaning absolutely FLATTENING bosses is VERY practically harmful, but that aside...) doesn't mean it's feels ok to keep in the game

[sage scarab]

This feels like defending a system that is actively pay to win

[quiet current]

Because they realized if they brought it down too much no one would buy it...

[sinful trench]

idk how to phrase this argument but I genuinely feel like loaned AP in raids in this context is unbelievably scummy in a way that no other p2w feature has reached yet and I think others in this thread would agree

[sage scarab]

doesnt even have to be brought down just get it out of raids

[quiet current]

Again, it would hurt sales

[scenic oriole]

so yes, ap loaning IS more p2w than other features

[quiet current]

and sadly that is #1 priority rn over even game balance it seems

[quick owl]

I dont care if a guy wants to pay money to get to raid level faster, i dont care if they pay money to get LE from shares
BUT i care if they do more damage in my raids than me as a result of paying

[scenic oriole]

or if not more p2w, its p2w in a different, way worse way.. in a way that is actually harmful to the health of the game

[shrewd narwhal]

i got news for u Buddy

[sage scarab]

I HATE THIS SHIT 😭

[quiet current]

Honestly adding a level up potion to the store would make me feel better as opposed to loaned AP, then at least dude is on a similar playing field instead of straight up stronger

[quick owl]

I also dont care if a guy wants 4 ap to use from ONLY level 1- ~54

[sage scarab]

WHY ARE WE DEFENDING PAY TO WIN FEATURES LIKE COME ON 🥀

[wary dagger]

-# sigh... I no longer know what to do...

[sinful trench]

atp I think the devs are just waiting for us to quietly seethe about this change instead of complaining about it out loud

[quick owl]

https://tenor.com/view/sleep-money-gif-9679879

[scenic oriole]

level 1 to 105 boost would be a LOT MORE ACCEPTABLE than this for real lmao.... ... it would still be bad, but you can just level up yourself from 1 to 105 too, so it doesn't give you any actual advantage, besides saving time

[quick owl]

I cant wait for tna level scale after fruma release

[sinful trench]

don't give them ideas

[quiet current]

100%, and they try to say that this is a better solution lmao

[quick owl]

Especially with my loaned ap!!!

[shrewd narwhal]

you know what's even more stupid, this argument of "this will hurt casual play" or "this harms the target audience" is completely irrelevant

there are no and i mean NO new players willing to buy a 200 dollar rank before they actually know how to play the game or atleast understand if their buck is worth, and at that point, even if they do buy the rank, this advantage is no longer applied to a "new player" anymore but rather someone who can just abuse it like every other end game player

[scenic oriole]

thats how it looks like (except Zeer, afaik Zeer has different, far more balanced takes on things)

[sinful trench]

100% this, I've already said this multiple times in this thread but I couldn't have worded it better than this

[quiet current]

Yeah who THE FUCK do they think is buying champ out the gate?

[scenic oriole]

or in any case, I'd say Terminated and Salted certainly seems to be a bit.. out of touch.. when it comes to AP loaning

[sinful trench]

more importantly who the fuck is buying champ just for loaned AP in raids when they wouldn't have bought it otherwise

[scenic oriole]

(watch me getting banned for saying that)

[quick owl]

Loaned ap max is hero btw

[sinful trench]

I'm willing to accept that people buy this for experimentation at level 20. you are not experimenting with jack shit by level 54 because you can ALREADY PATH DOWN ALL ATREES WITH 29 AP

[quick owl]

It WAS champion in beta though

[wary dagger]

Sadly , I am aware of multiple ppl buying hero JUST for dfact lvl scale...

At least 8

[sage scarab]

the fact that this happens at all should be significantly more than enough proof that this system should not exist in raids!

[sinful trench]

I bought hero with shares for dfac level scale

[minor bison]

nah ive seen multiple champs with less than 10 hours playtime

[scenic oriole]

like... somehow their greed for wanting to make money for wynn updates COMPLETELY overshadows their ability to see just how BROKEN ap loaning is

[quiet current]

And sadly this is the reason they wont get rid of it

[shrewd narwhal]

this is where you're wrong fella ! it just means their trick is working 😁

[scenic oriole]

I don't want to be mean, but its really frustrating

[sinful trench]

like to be clear I actively benefit from this system and bought a rank with shares just so I could abuse it for my own selfish enjoyment

[quiet current]

With Terms game knowledge he 100% knows how busted it is, but it makes money so it will not be removed and he will act as though its not a big deal

[wary dagger]

Me neither. Idk what to say anymore without being angry...

[sinful trench]

and I'm still out here arguing that it should be removed

[wary dagger]

[quiet current]

I literally have champion, this literally benefits me, and I fucking hate it

[quick owl]

Remember the following

[quiet current]

most of those I play with, also champion, also hate it

Approaches like this are beginning to make me regret every dollar I have spent on wynn

[scenic oriole]

anyway, saying that certain devs are out of touch with certain game content might get me in trouble, so I'll just go and chill out now, but there is genuenly no other way for us to give out our frustration anymore

[quiet current]

Dude they are 100% in the know, they are just acting as if they dont see the issue so they can continue to defend it

[sinful trench]

for the record I find level scale abuse to be very fun, which makes this issue... worse? if people are actively willing to buy ranks just to abuse the fuck out of loaned AP

[wary dagger]

Loaned ap is also making balancing hell for the AT too

[quick owl]

Wait actually im wrong about this.
Lets add loaned ap to the rank doubling features of silverbull sub (4 loaned ap becomes 8 with silverbull)!!!

[young dome]

If you have silverbull for 5 years you get all 45 ap early

[scenic oriole]

blatant content promotion, but very relevant..... AP loaning IS VERY FUN....... for the first one or two times you use it in a certain content

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_LZYGymEjU

[sinful trench]

LMFAO I watched that a while back it was very funny

[scenic oriole]

then it becomes the new "Normal" for you, and you feel underpowered without it

it takes away the challenge

[scenic oriole]

this is very accurate, I have 2 champion accounts, and I HATE ap loaning

[sinful trench]

goes to show that 4 AP is all you need to feasibly beat bosses balanced for 50-60 levels above your current one (at the extremes)

it would be literally impossible to beat most bosses designed for above level 20 as a level 1 without loaned AP bc you just don't have a movement spell

[scenic oriole]

no you just need the escape spell to be able to dodge the boss, plus auto attacks at range

its not as bad for higher level contents, for higher level contents, its just more damage, but thats even worse in a way

[young dome]

Imagine if it was still 6 free ap 😭

[sinful trench]

maybe if one of these threads hits 300 upvotes like the anni shouts thread then something will happen 🙏 🙏

[sage scarab]

[sinful trench]

linny said it used to be 8 free ap before it got pushed to beta

[scenic oriole]

if it wasn't for certain features only wynncraft has as a minecraft server, which I need for my projects, I would have stopped playing wynncraft after this update, and I'm a hardcore wynncraft fan

game quality went downhill with this update big time

even if visually the game quality went up

[shrewd narwhal]

hourly melonthelegend guild message guys i got 8k epulls guys wtf i got nothing

i do agree that wynn has gotten significantly worse in a lot of aspects with this update but i think they refuse to see that, the saving grace is the AT changes in this update that managed to implement a decent amount of favorable changes but they are unfortunately overshadowed by a lot of the other garbage

[scenic oriole]

like I WANT to see wynncraft succeed, it has insane potential

I only want to see features that give actual advantage (more dmg etc.) by paying real money go away (currently, its only AP loaning specifically in raids)

[scenic oriole]

this is the only reason I'm still yapping here

(and once again, I refuse to hate on the human beings, devs are cool people, but if they make these type of game changes, it will be very sad for the future of wynncraft and game quality in general)

[scenic oriole]

im also consistent in this opinion ever since my BETA feedback post about AP loaning

[sinful trench]

I thnk tunneldigger said this earlire but I dgaf about all the other stuff that was shoehorned into this update atp I only want loaned AP to stop affecting raids

I'm willing to accept the wynn monetization wave as long as this one relatively inconsequential revenue stream is modified slightly

[scenic oriole]

this is in raids in general by the way, not just in guild raids

[merry wharf]

This is downright untrue, I kinda don't wanna argue anymore but I can't have straight lies lol

[sage scarab]

dont wanna argue anymore… 🥀

[quick owl]

Noo dont go after linny flour your best CT

[merry wharf]

It's just not that fun to either repeat myself constantly, be misrepresented or have to push back on things that some of you know to be untrue 🤷

The discussion we had here earlier in the day was far more productive

[shrewd narwhal]

but you are still ignoring the most important fact which is that there is a grand canyon between the performance of this gameplay and normal hyperoptimised end game gameplay

[wary dagger]

You can't deny that loaned ap makes it balancing hell for AT tho

Sorry but I gotta be blunt here

[merry wharf]

I have tried to respond to every minute detail as best as I can, but I don't feel that many people here have done the same in the other direction so when it's not a two way discussion I don't think it's a good one to continue

[sage scarab]

Naturally backlash isnt going to be fun to take in, but when features like loaned AP being available in raids are as egregious as they are and are being portrayed as not that big of a deal there is naturally going to be an even less fun conversation following that

[frail saffron]

honestly it would be nice to require level 100+ for graid

that way ppl with ap loans could still do raids with this strategy and will gain less

[sinful trench]

.

[quick owl]

Makes it less accessible for small guilds than it already is

[frail saffron]

i mean, Graid is a endgame thing

[quick owl]

Thats a whole different problem id rather them remove loaned ap

[frail saffron]

if you don't have leveled up characters, you should

[shrewd narwhal]

i appreciate your transparency and hell if im being transparent myself i think that if you weren't around we would get jack shit because CT actively refuse talking about this kind of stuff consistently (seriously, i dont see anyone ever try to voice their geniune opinion other than like chris and linny)

this is why players are upset because despite you being willing to listen to players you are missing the big point here which is that this feature heavily breaks balance, and it is known that you guys try to always tune things down when they are overpowered or breaking the balance and flow of wynncraft... so why is it different now?

[sage scarab]

tbf i doubt there are many level 80s going into graids

[quick owl]

We were doing it all the time with new hsp people lol

[frail saffron]

yeah, and if they are doing it, like you could change character, and if is your first character, honestly you should level up normally

[merry wharf]

The final time I will repeat myself on this:
The only thing I have portrayed as not a big deal is them being used normally for content and even raids. You can't tell me that your average Joe level 60 player doing notg is out dpsing a level 105. Without a specific hyper optimised build I'd guess that even an experienced player couldn't out dps a 105 with loaned ap.

Where it becomes incredibly strong is when it is paired with a hyper optimised build in specific level scaled content. I will keep trying to get you guys to be reasonable and accept that these two scenarios are fundamentally not the same and not even close to each other

[wary dagger]

I feel like the reason most don't wanna speak out is the fear of harassment sadly...

[sinful trench]

I mean it is worth noting that an experienced player can outdps a 105 with loaned ap with a build, period, just that most first timers won't have a build so this doesn't come up very often on first playthroughs

.

[merry wharf]

I very specifically noted "without a hyper optimised build"

[half saffron]

this is true, but uhhh over 2mil dps seems like it should be nerfed no?

[sage scarab]

(effectively 2 mil)

[frail saffron]

i've seen almost 3million dps

[sinful trench]

fair enough, I think there's a distinction between having a build, period (wearing something a little more optimized than morph) vs having a hyperoptimized build (7/9 crafted)

[half saffron]

I was low balling

[frail saffron]

like is absurd

[merry wharf]

We're talking about the second case here yeah?

[shrewd narwhal]

i can accept that, i dont expect everyone to the same as other people but like, if term wasnt willing to be active in this discord u can kiss goodbye most of the transparency that u see on this discord which is just sad lol

[sinful trench]

my post is saying that having a build, period (more optimized than morph) is still going to let you deal more dps than your run of the mill 105, even if you don't use crafteds

[half saffron]

I mean ignoring level scaling and AP loan and whatever else. if a build hits that much damage would it not be nerfed in general? I just care about the balance of the game

[frail saffron]

i would like that CT balanced more Midgame items tbf, that would be nice

[shrewd narwhal]

this isn't something you see in like any other game, literally a dev doing a better job of being a community manager than supposed "manager" roles that the CT have lmao

[frail saffron]

like they haven't nuked those items like a lot of endgame items

and that is also part of the problem, IM didn't look that much at those items

[sage scarab]

tbf it is hard to do this in the context of raid scaling boosting your damage by 3 times (effectively)

[merry wharf]

I care about the balance of the game too, but just like with builds or abilities, unlike what auto claimed earlier, the extent of usage as well as the trade offs are extremely important with any feature in the game. Your rewards are gutted in exchange for a (reportedly) minimal time save

[frail saffron]

maybe with exceptions like blue mask (but mostly bc is also used in endgame)

[quick owl]

Man we’re going in circles pulling the reward card again 💀

[half saffron]

idk why people keep bringing up rewards. that isnt really the issue. a level 80 gets less rewards than an endgame player. imo that has nothing to do with how strong you should be in the game.

[frail saffron]

a lot of items are insanely broken even outside raids

[merry wharf]

Can we not turn this into a CT bashing thread please. It's just tiring when you know that there are many legitimate reasons for CT to not spend their free time getting abuse lol

[frail saffron]

like most weapons can nuke mobs from their equivalent level very quickly

[sage scarab]

checks out

[sinful trench]

if an op build is fine to keep in the game as long as it's very hard to use and very expensive to make, why not just keep 5hp pz tether in the game

[merry wharf]

The rewards are extremely relevant for anyone trying to use the "pay to win" card. Rewards are your primary objective for grinding raids

[half saffron]

look the most logical way we should look at this is the fact that loaned ap might be here to stay and level 80 players still need an edge. somewhow we need to find a way to keep the game balance as well as allowing these things to stay. arguing wont help. gotta find new solutions

[quick owl]

Never nerf resonance (its expensive therefore it should stay in the meta)!!

[half saffron]

oh yeah idc about the pay to win angle just the balance of archetypes and classes

[quick owl]

Leaderboards

[frail saffron]

also SR farm

[scenic oriole]

@merry wharf want another argument? fine... yall always say that yall care first and foremost about the game being fun... well...

the reason creating op crafted builds is fun for me, is because you get to become somewhat op (but not that op) by learning the entire prof system and creating builds using hours of time, and getting those ingreds/mats, crafitng them, experimenting with them, etc....

the reason AP leaning is NOT fun, is that you just pay to become stronger, in fact, its even less fun, because you become SO STRONG, that it takes away the CHALLENGE from many different game contents, that I would otherwise play for the challenge in the first place, whether that be with crafted build or without crafted build

[frail saffron]

i've seen guilds taking this approach to get SR quickly in NoTG/Orphion

[sinful trench]

for the record I know plenty of people who have absolutely unbelievable amounts of money and fully maxed aspects and still spend their time slaving away at raids in pfinder

[merry wharf]

SR I have already agreed with everyone on. The other ones seem very open to being boosted by existing methods on the store so it's weird to call this one specifically out. Like bombs help you on prof leaderboards, totems and exp bombs help for exp related leaderboards etc

[quick owl]

Raidcount leaderboard

[sinful trench]

this is about raidcount leaderboard though

[wary dagger]

I feel like only me and boingus cares about midgame items

[shrewd narwhal]

not trying to bash anyone, i geniuenly think wynncraft can benefit from an actual community manager (even volunteer position) that is all, this is something players (in one way or another) have been asking for a long time and for good reason.

but anyway that is not the point of this thread, i sadly don't think you see the main point here because you keep pushing aside the fact that AP loaning is broken because "most players won't do this". this isn't a valid argument because you don't balance things around "we can make this feature absurdly broken because the amount of players abusing it will probably be very low"

[supple dawn]

You are not CT?

[frail saffron]

the last part is exactly what i think, like if you are so strong in a team activity that you nuke the boss in a few seconds you are not only ruining ur experience but everyone in the raid

[wary dagger]

Ofc not. I mean community wise

Can't think of anyone else caring about midgame items

[frail saffron]

Make SR scale with level, once you reach to level 100, you get 100% of SR from guild activities

[sinful trench]

unrelated but I think this thread is probably as constructive as constructive feedback gets

[shrewd narwhal]

btw term, and i mean this in the nicest and most productive way possible, you should notice a pattern here on why these kind of threads always lead to "there are problems with CT"

[sinful trench]

none of the usual trolls or ragebaiters are out here doing their thing, I think everyone is at least making an effort to be charitable and form coherent arguments

which is nice to see for once

[young dome]

Get real discussion out while you can!

[wary dagger]

-# Ima go back to #❓questions .
Adios

[frail saffron]

i mean, is something that bothers almost everyone in the server (and ruins overall experience of new players)

[quick owl]

So real

Im gonna make a troll thread rn to even it out

[remote jetty]

Cool thread, tho feels like this is more an issue of a very old system (guild xp contributions) that should be changed, than a problem with the scaling itself. Being able to pause your progression and get permanently stuck on a level is the trouble here, the scaling works as intended and at the end it will eternally be more beneficial for new players that are getting into raids than to people abusing it, the influx of players on wynncraft is too high

[merry wharf]

Again let's try not to use the "so strong" claim without immediately coupling it with "if you have a good low level build"

[sinful trench]

idk if anyone has said this yet but loaned AP does significantly increase your performance at baseline

[scenic oriole]

in mmorpg games, its all about your damage numbers first and foremost, thats the bottom line really, if you have to pay for being able to reach the highest possible damage in a certain content, that is harmful game design and unfun and demotivating

[young dome]

Just disable loaned AP in raids

[sinful trench]

I brought up several examples of this in my own thread about loaned AP, but for example being able to take MoTL at level 54 multiplies your damage by 1.35x

so even your run of the mill pablogonzalez2007 will be dealing 40k dps instead of 30k dps at level 54, which is a noticeable difference

[frail saffron]

honestly sound like unecesary work when there are better options to tackle this, but i could pass this solution

[half saffron]

agreed, so you think we should do something along the lines of not allowing players to stay at lower levels?

[quick owl]

Yes this was in fact mentioned on the thread

[remote jetty]

correct 😄

[half saffron]

yay!

[quick owl]

A CT (or mod) earlier disagreed on that very suggestion

[young dome]

You could make it so you contribute xp to your guild without sacrificing your own xp

[quick owl]

Cant find it though

[frail saffron]

#1407048137503150080 message i did a post about how could this be improved without any change from IM/AT

[supple dawn]

Wouldn't this make you unable to do most stuff at level cause you level up too much, also class organization in /class will change constantly without a way to fix that

[frail saffron]

this would also make lower WE more atractive for high level ppl and a lot of ppl agreed on that

[scenic oriole]

you want me to see that AP loaning mainly affects the insane amount of new players who are vip+ or hero (or above), and that since they don't have op builds, its fun for them.... I still this it ruins the game balance even in those cases, but I already accepted AP loaning to exist outside of raids, so I can acknowledge this point.

but my point was entirely different

[frail saffron]

it doesn't solve entirelly the issue, but adress one part of it

being that XP is not as rewarding as aspects

[remote jetty]

most players are not even aware of /gu xp, this mostly affects old/experienced players, tho I do like the playthrough where people hinger their xp gaining for a slower gameplay, so perhaps this in particularly could become a gamemode. Order changing on the selector is unavoidable, yeah

[merry wharf]

Time to implement something that tells you real damage versus scaled damage

It's like Nvidia frame generation

[frail saffron]

bring back dmg farming from mobs in other challengues

[fiery jolt]

i think it’s a consequence of the segment killing not being nearly as good as it was

[remote jetty]

About this in specific, i do agree for world events, for a few years i have been thinking there should be generally a way to make lower level areas useful at the end game but it feels like it needs a special mechanic rather than scaling itself

[fiery jolt]

also holy shit melon did u even sleep

[scenic oriole]

I'll just repeat my point with adjusting for your criticism about strong builds:

the reason creating op crafted builds is fun for me, is because you get to become somewhat op (but not that op) by learning the entire prof system and creating builds using hours of time, and getting those ingreds/mats, crafitng them, experimenting with them, etc....

the reason AP leaning is NOT fun, is that you just pay to become stronger, in fact, its even less fun, because - WITH THE PROPER BUILDS - you become SO STRONG, that it takes away the CHALLENGE from many different game contents, that I would otherwise play for the challenge in the first place, whether that be with crafted build or without crafted build... but MAKING PROPER BUILDS is the challenge and the fun itself in this game, so I won't just use mediocre gear

[scenic oriole]

I sleep 4 hours 2 times a day nowadays (improvement believe it or not)

[remote jetty]

get your point but this has a lot of assumptions, making builds is not really the fun part of the game for a decent amount of people; People are different, they like different stuff, and thats the magic of a MMORPG, you can play it in whatever way you like

[fiery jolt]

i fw polyphasic sleeping

but also wtf are u writing in this thread

[scenic oriole]

(its not deliberate, I'll fix sleep schedule by fixing my environment so I can sleep well)

[frail saffron]

yeah i was thinking about a harder mode for minor world events that granted more EM + ing bags from that area + more xp, but seems like a lot to work out, a little adjustment in XP could be a nice addition in the meanwhile but idk how much dev time would require, anyways is nice that you guys noticed this because as a old player i love visiting ragni and low level areas

[scenic oriole]

don't just watch the last 20 comments, this thread has been going on for hours, my last comments were very frustrated

[fiery jolt]

tbh minor world events happen often enough that i don’t think they need a rewards bump

[earnest trout]

optimizing goes too far

[shrewd narwhal]

sleeping is not allowed, he needs to lootrun

[quick owl]

You guys just need to implement 2) tbh

[frail saffron]

it could be locked by world events counts, like after doing 5 level 100-105 world events it could activate

or something else, but yeah is hard to balance

[remote jetty]

yeah i saw this, its an interesting take, but there are other underlying issues with being able to lock yourself on a specific level, so feels like fixing /gu xp somehow is the more appropriate solution

[frail saffron]

could also be like every 9 times that the same world event spawns, the 10th is allowed to be harder

[quick owl]

Issues other than level scaling?

[scenic oriole]

I like being able to lock myself on specific level, especially lvl 1

[fiery jolt]

too complex

[remote jetty]

mostly level scaling, but there are some others yeah

[fiery jolt]

forcing ppl to level is kinda evil though i cannot lie

[frail saffron]

yeah, thats why im just fine with xp scale for now

[fiery jolt]

xp scale could b cool

[deep umbra]

I wanna chime in but like I feel like stalling leveling should be in the game still. Right now you level up so quickly youre way overleveled for most quests/actual content. removing /gu xp 100 is a bandaid fix at most.

I agree level scaling is a problem but that affects such a low minority of people that it shouldnt just remove a really good mechanic if you want to challenge yourself

[shrewd narwhal]

i agree, plus it wouldn't really be fixing the problem and just add a limitation to it at some point

[fiery jolt]

id much rather just limit lows from guild raiding like .

[idle totem]

why not tie scaling to your silverbull raid rank

[deep umbra]

yeah why not limit low levels from graiding lol

[median ermine]

why not kill all low level players

[half saffron]

I dont get this, any other mmorpg I have played doesnt have a "hey I want to stop leveling button"

[scenic oriole]

removing /gu xp 100 would cause an insane amount of controversy, and it would be a bad decision anyway

[fiery jolt]

…twinking in wow?

[remote jetty]

I haven't really said we should get rid of gu xp or of a way to hinger your leveling up tho

[deep umbra]

ok epic my bad i must have misunderstood

[remote jetty]

more like you shouldn't simply be able to be stuck on a level eternally at will

[quick owl]

Brb making new account to notg level scale and not touch the silverbull syndicate

[scenic oriole]

why not?

[deep umbra]

i mean. why not? i dont see an issue with it

[half saffron]

raid xp should be forced onto a character instead of to the guild. wouldnt that solve both problems?

[fiery jolt]

if this is what comes out of this thread im gonna be so pissed lmfao

[idle totem]

the real p2wynn is from buying a whole other account over and over

[fiery jolt]

oh welll

[remote jetty]

because it cause problems with balancing, with scaling, with loot generation, with a lot of other factors, its the point of this thread lol

[deep umbra]

I think a much better option isjust to be required to be level 100+ to be able to graid

[modest oyster]

Ehunting becomes harder 😕

[scenic oriole]

no it wouldn't

[shrewd narwhal]

ap loaning causes problem with balancing, scaling, not loot generation, and THAT is the point of this thread

[scenic oriole]

it might cause issues in raid, but it doesn't cause issues anywhere else, and removing it would be a really bad move

[frail saffron]

this

[scenic oriole]

as was said earlier, this would be cheap bandaid fix with twisted monkey pawn or what

[fiery jolt]

this,

[scenic oriole]

paw*

[remote jetty]

capping level on graids dont fix anything

[deep umbra]

i mean there wont be a point to levelscaling tho

[remote jetty]

it does cause issues on other areas

[scenic oriole]

Terminated also suggested that capping level on graid would be the best fix... I also don't agree, it indeed doesn't fix much

[scarlet vortex]

How do you jump to the first message?

[quick owl]

All the guild raid levelscalers will go to pfinder 🥀

[idle totem]

like i said,

[shrewd narwhal]

holy crap 😭 guess im kissing church guild xp grinding goodbye LOL, i did not even get to request more than 2 tomes!!

[quick owl]

On mobile tap the very top of your screen

[mental shuttle]

Why are we ignoring sr farming here

[scenic oriole]

we are not, been discussed earlier

Terminated agreed to SR farming with AP loaning being a problem

thread has been going for hours

[mental shuttle]

So what do they plan to do about it

[mental shuttle]

Yeah i haven't really kept up

[sinful trench]

the first pfinder nol I did today had a level 79 az loaned AP level scaler, do what you will with that information

[minor bison]

ok did you win?

[sinful trench]

yeah

[glacial walrus]

me personally I obought champion b4 logging onto the server once

[minor bison]

good job

[snow spear]

please

lv105 req

[glacial walrus]

Hi @ancient raven

[ancient raven]

What about a level requirement for gambits ? This can:

1. Prevent sr farming with these min max builds but you can still play them
2. Prevent your average joe from being a huge weight to the team
3. Have little affect on them cuz they couldn't care less about sr
   The only downside I see of this rn is limiting his loot pool even more, which you guys said is a fine trade off. Maybe there are more downside which I cannot see rn so I would like your opinion on it.

[wary dagger]

I am pretty sure there's alr silverbull lvl reqs to unlock more gambits no?

[ancient raven]

Yes but a level one also so we can prevent sr farming with level scaling

[quick owl]

Yeah i brought this up and im not sure it got well received

#1408255914615640114 message

[ancient raven]

If someone have an idea to why it could be bad I am willing to hear

[half vale]

yea i dont see the issue compared to the guild req solution because it accomplishes the same thing without preventing new players from participating in guild activities or preventing level scale builds altogether

if the concern is newer players this change doesnt affect them because they need to unlock silverbull raiding levels anyway for gambits and nerfing themselves with gambits before they can learn the raids isn’t the best idea (i dont even think guild raids are the best idea for them either and notg/nol barely even change anything anyway but thats besides the point)

if balancing level scaling is out of the picture i dont see a downside unless you believe that scaling in its current state for sr and aspects is good game design

[slim tinsel]

i mean the people abusing level scaling are not the people who are trying to get good tomes or aspects

its leaderboard grinders, graiders for big guilds

and afaik there is no difference in leaderboard positioning or graid rewards if you use a lvl 80 vs a 106

[marsh jungle]

what does AP loaning even do for anyone, is there any marginal revenue gained from it?

[shrewd narwhal]

it just happens to be part of an almost 200 dollar rank and is a massive advantage when used correctly

[marsh jungle]

I feel like it could be removed and probably wynncraft would not lose any sales

[shrewd narwhal]

thank you for your input Druser i am sure it will be taken into consideration

[lost talon]

the justification was a hypothetical situation where new players would feel more motivated to play later if they got more ap earlier

exactly as stupid as it sounds

[shrewd narwhal]

in reality: new players are not buying a 200 dollar rank 😂

[lost talon]

i could dig up the original dev statement but i cba

[shrewd narwhal]

i also cba, maybe auto has more motivation to convince them bc it's baffling that they suddenly dgaf about game balance when it comes to paid features

[lost talon]

it was in that beta feedback "update is a disgusting cashgrab" post anyway i think so cant get that now

[scenic oriole]

you only need hero to get 4 AP

[shrewd narwhal]

excuse me then, one hundred dollars..

[scenic oriole]

or vip+ to get 2 AP, which might get even more sales than hero

[shrewd narwhal]

the cost does not matter here anyways

a feature with this amount of power whether it costs five or two hundred dollars should not exist

(specifically in the content that gives it that amount of power)

[earnest trout]

apperently people do actually do this

welcome to the world of whaling

[shrewd narwhal]

i mean, this is applicable in games like CR where the game early on is literally pay to win, but wynn is not quite like that

[scenic oriole]

AP loaning does work for champion, but not in an instantly obvious way, more like... its just another extra thing that you have in the package of "best rank"

ofc hero also gets 4 AP, but that doesn't matter for this mind trick

if a new player has a lot of spare money and enjoys the game, they will 100% buy champion just because they see how many perks it gives

[earnest trout]

something something dark patterns

[scenic oriole]

this one is not a dark pattern though... ranks are a genunie way of trying to come up with a package that people can buy to support the server and get some cool stuff in exchange... the problem is when a perk gives something unfair, like AP loaning

[lost talon]

dark patterns is just manipulative ui this is straight up pay2wynn 😂

[merry wharf]

when used incorrectly 😜

[lost talon]

still though i benefit from this existing so idc

[earnest trout]

what is the correct way to use ap loaning though
is there even a "correct" way?

[lost talon]

refer to this statement

[shrewd narwhal]

i guess in a way 😭

[merry wharf]

Salted's forum post

[shrewd narwhal]

you do not want to start that term..

[merry wharf]

its a good description of the reason for the perk which is what was asked

[lost talon]

New players: What is ability points

What is a tree

https://tenor.com/view/xxx-xxxtentacion-whats-a-father-whats-that-gif-4514438237433228757

[earnest trout]

could you imagine if it was still 6ap

[lost talon]

New players: I will use this extra ap to use all 3 archetypes at the same time

[shrewd narwhal]

conveniently you kept the last sentence which is pretty irrelevant now that we see the outcome of this thread

but i donnu how to convince u anymore abt this topic sooo i think that will be it for me tbh

[merry wharf]

It would be convenient if I left it out lmao, not the other way around

[shrewd narwhal]

its convenient for me since i dont have to go to the thread and quote salted 😁

[merry wharf]

People seem to have a funny definition of what "monitor" means. Last I checked it very much requires a period of time and I dont think that 2 weeks constitutes that

[lost talon]

Bro you cannot be using the semantics argument

[sinful trench]

Can we hit 100 up votes

[lost talon]

This response is embarassing bro delete it

[shrewd narwhal]

but what else do u need ? u can clearly see that people are capable to push this to an extreme amount, and the "waiting time" or "minimal amount of people doing it" does not matter when it's breaking game balance

[merry wharf]

I've seen quite a lot of people saying "why hasn't it already changed" but we can't hope to make accurate decisions based on anything in such a short time

[lost talon]

?????????? 😂

[merry wharf]

not to mention thinking of a good solution itself takes time even once the problem has been identified properly

[lost talon]

😂😂😂 look at what our dev is saying bro this game is cooked

[merry wharf]

so I dont think being defeatest saying that its irrelevant to say that we'll monitor it is a good way of thinking. We will (as salted said there) continue to monitor the effects and make decisions based on that

[minor bison]

everyone is gonna get used to it

[merry wharf]

I dont know whats bad about saying that 😭

[earnest trout]

basically they're mad that you're not doing anything instantly and actually taking the time to monitor the situation

[lost talon]

evidence literally in the thread

[earnest trout]

at least thats how I read it

[merry wharf]

Yeah.. I dont think im saying anything outrageous. Im just trying to respond to @shrewd narwhal saying that us saying "we'll monitor it" is irrelevant by saying that: No! We will continue to monitor as we said, we aren't unreasonable nor liars lol

[shrewd narwhal]

i think your argument is true and applies to a lot of things but it's not very applicable here, because you can definitely tell that this is unhealthy if you want to keep a balanced environment. i think it's ok to give it more time but from your and zeer's previous comments it kinda looks lost on whether or not this will be changed

this is heavily backened by the fact that this amount of extreme power is effectively locked behind a paywall, and a lot of people are already upset on some of the changes applied to wynn regarding monetization and this is probably the worst one

[earnest trout]

considering that this is a store perk, i.e, something that people bought for real money, I don't think its the right move to rush out a hotfix

[shrewd narwhal]

i dont think you are saying anything outrageous i just think you should consider legitimate suggestions (disabling this in raids makes complete sense to me personally so i just dont understand why you don't agree with applying it)

telling the player hey this PAID and ADVANTAGEOUS feature is disabled in level scaled content is perfectly reasonable to me

[low dawn]

the build on op message do more dmg than me on dummy 😭

[earnest trout]

its kind of like how btd6 disables double cash and fast track mode on chimps/competitive content

[merry wharf]

All we've made clear is that we want to find a solution that not only works for one particular set of players but all of them.

I've tried to bring up how most regular use of these loaned ability points aren't problematic and would go completely un-noticed in your raid lobbies and we definitely want to preserve that as a positive perk for players to engage with while also making sure it doesn't pose too big of a problem if taken to its limits.

Thats kind of the simple logic of this: You are understandably concerned about the impact of them when taken to their absolute limits coupled with experienced players going on low level accounts with optimized builds and potentially ruining your experience. We have heard that concern (as salted even said during the beta), but we want to also ensure that we dont lose the positive parts of the perk too :)

[shrewd narwhal]

good, now we kinda seem to be on the same page here, i hope this will be somewhat of a priority to discuss internally because this is really unhealthy for wynn in the future

im afraid with all things kept in mind there isn't an easy solution to this tho 🤷‍♂️

[minor bison]

erm btw this tree is possible at midgame https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CK0000000000000000000000i6Eet-jTxo0 which does around 450k with 60 winded

surely this is not problematic

[sinful trench]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CK0000000000000000000000i6Ee-ftsTL2 slightly better version of that tree I think

No point going for manastorm if you can't grab it

[lost talon]

We need time to monitor this obviously it takes time to come up with a solution for gamebreaking builds enabled through a paywalled feature

[minor bison]

im grabing cheaper heal

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CK000000000000000000000mH0+c+fssjb1

wait i can have this as 55?

nvm i cant

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CK000000000000000000000mH0+c+XjjRB1

[scenic oriole]

"without negatively affecting endgame"... raids are the definition of endgame really...

[minor bison]

this can!

[earnest trout]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CKG44U4U4U4U4U4UuN81mVZ88y8y8y8y8y8y0nG2WD78e11DaVZ3P0h1A2W1z+ljRN6
something like this?

[scenic oriole]

once again, it also totally ruins ability tree balance across all levels anyway

[earnest trout]

90k+ meteors

[scenic oriole]

that is without accounting for level scaling or?

[minor bison]

theres a non crafted leggings has high spell raw

also you want to offhand heat death

and that’s basically how to build pure riftwalker!

[scenic oriole]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/crafter/#4qEqEqEqEqEqEmO00
https://wynnbuilder.github.io/crafter/#4qEqEqEqEqEqEWP00

huh.. bit bugged links, it changes small o to capital O in "Essence of Dusk"

but you get the point

[minor bison]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/crafter/#4CqiUiUCqCqiUmO00

Potion Lv. 63-65 (1✫, 1✫)
[Ancient Spring Water | Creepvine Cluster
Creepvine Cluster | Ancient Spring Water
Ancient Spring Water | Creepvine Cluster ]

[scenic oriole]

yes but this one is expensive, the ones I linked is dirt cheap

and can be used in mass

..not that its worth it, you "oneshot" the boss anyway lmao

[minor bison]

olux world event + crafter bags insane value btw

[scenic oriole]

anyway... as @earnest trout I'd be very surprised too if no change would happen as a result of this and similar threads about AP loaning

we probably said all we could

as roguefort said*

[thorny pumice]

@gleaming sorrel gave the bs a try and holy fucking shi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJD1-aNEre8

[minor bison]

btw sorrow at the head when it spawns

still counts as damage

[earnest trout]

why infernus?

[minor bison]

and i think there is an even busted aco build but they are gatekeeping ts

[earnest trout]

it wouldn't be that tricky to reverse-engineer

it's probably some sort of 8x crafted build

[gleaming sorrel]

ability tree is better at 65 imo. and infernus has almost 1.5x the base dps of spindle. and the boss health from spindle is 1.8m, with aeterna its 3m which is less than 1.5x

plus aeterna is thunder fire and neutral dmg which is perfect for eldritch call

[thorny pumice]

shits basically just quartz slap

[minor bison]

quartz slap not all optimal and not quartz

[thorny pumice]

wat

[earnest trout]

my first thought was enchanted chain link for helmet/chestplate and tattered cloth for leggings/boots

[gleaming sorrel]

chain link is negative mana

[minor bison]

theres a couple of stuff thats better than 6 pure quartz

[thorny pumice]

for us we just used broken balance + quartz slap cus lazy

[minor bison]

and chainlink is spell% which is kinda ahh

[gleaming sorrel]

lion heart and magic cloth are great

[earnest trout]

and tattered magic cloth will neutralize that

[gleaming sorrel]

well aeterna has a high base dps so %dmg can be good aswell

[thorny pumice]

the goal was to put something relatively affordable and easy to make

to mess with the concept, just shows how silly this shit is

[gleaming sorrel]

i kinda wanna 4x aeterna

[thorny pumice]

we got hackusated running this shit earlier lmao

[scenic oriole]

lmfao tell me how the existence of this is healthy to the game @ Terminated

and this is no consu I think

[earnest trout]

whats the warrior meta for level scaling groot

[minor bison]

whats the best boss time youve gotten

[scenic oriole]

this cannot be justified in any way

[gleaming sorrel]

but definetly blood sorrow the head before the fight, you can get 1/3 of the health before groot charges with 2 aeternas

4x aeternas might kill groot berfore it charges with potions

[thorny pumice]

will attempt tomorrow

[earnest trout]

like my current theory was just 3x crafted broken balance

[minor bison]

apoc and hero

[scenic oriole]

and this is unhealthy not only in guild raids, but also in normal raids

[gleaming sorrel]

squid brain gives like 40% spell dmg and main attack dmg for pots and theres good fire ings asewll

[thorny pumice]

https://tenor.com/view/aririno-ari-eepy-aririno-gif-16025479372624999110

[scenic oriole]

I really should go farm raids before this gets nerfed

[earnest trout]

really? L81/91?

[minor bison]

yeah it pairs up really well with reso

[supple dawn]

Have you never done grootslang this is how fast the boss goes in a 105 party aswell

[earnest trout]

wouldn't desperate fac at L80 be better than apoc?

[scenic oriole]

@earnest trout do you think their way to fix this will be to just tone down level scaling, or they will actually do something about AP loaning too?

[supple dawn]

And you don't sacrifice your rewards

[earnest trout]

i don't think they'd kill ap loaning

[minor bison]

• notg has fire weakness
• apoc bash radius covers the worm when it comes down and "bundles up"

[thorny pumice]

they cant really tone down level scaling cus the average new player gonna blow up in raids

More people will suffer from level scaling getting fucked than not

[earnest trout]

what i hope hundrstood

[minor bison]

i got multiple clips from today with sub 10 kills excluding the cutscene

[scenic oriole]

what from this would be possible without that 4 AP? or with the 4 AP, but at the higher level, where you would normally get that 4 AP,

[thorny pumice]

the 4 ap are the difference maker in thid build

cus u get to take lunatic and bsorrow

[gleaming sorrel]

no need for double totem in graids if you have more acolytes in the party

so its basically 105 tree benefits at 65

[supple dawn]

Yeah I'm saying melon obviously never done actual grootslang but getting mad at this is quite funny

[earnest trout]

lion's hearts are 8le on tm
time to grind for them

[supple dawn]

There's a reason they're 8le

They are not fun to grind

[minor bison]

i know 1 player that hoarded all of them

[thorny pumice]

true but it usually comes at a cost, we slap this crap together for like 1stx le

[earnest trout]

i sure hope there isn't a way to get them fast

[minor bison]

you gain less from raid rewards in return for funny damage

seems fair

[thorny pumice]

most of it spent on grabbing shit fast, if we were patient we could easily half that cost

[scenic oriole]

how much less rewards btw?

[thorny pumice]

for one, no mythic tomes

[scenic oriole]

(not that that changes our points, im just curious)

[supple dawn]

Significantly less LE and no good tomes

[thorny pumice]

1/4th the le give or take

[scenic oriole]

and aspects?

[supple dawn]

You've been in this thread arguing for over a day and you don't even know that?

[minor bison]

• no mythic tomes
• emeralds is around 40eb average
• powders best at t4

[thorny pumice]

my chest from earlier

[scenic oriole]

aspect amount is the same?

[thorny pumice]

yea

[minor bison]

you running 3 gambits?

[thorny pumice]

yea

[minor bison]

nice aspects btw

[scenic oriole]

I knew about decreased rewards, I just didn't check specificities, cuz it doesn't really change our arguments

anyway, if it gives the same amount of aspects, its op

[thorny pumice]

tbh im more or less okay with level scaling existing?

[scenic oriole]

but the main argument is that AP loaning gives unfair paid advantage that is not possible otherwise

[thorny pumice]

tbh its a funny to farm reactions in party finder but its honestly quite ass to play level scale

and u could easily achieve better times without it

[minor bison]

i think the main crucial point of this thread is just the scaling implemented not in a perfectly good way

[scenic oriole]

thats one of the points, out of two

[thorny pumice]

in this builds case u have no fucking mana, and ur slow so u do actually lose a lot of time due to that

[scenic oriole]

1. level scaling is unbalanced
2. AP loaning gives unfair paid advantage

[thorny pumice]

game discourages me from playing this shit tbh. it isnt worth it. its just really fucking funny

[sinful trench]

this is so incredibly funny

[ocean fox]

teammates don’t

[frank coral]

Bring back changing armor mid raids

I want to ask is difference between a level scalers completion time and a normal 105 party significant enough to warrant a nerf and offset the difference in rewards to a point that level scalers actually get an advantage off through rewards

Beside the faster completion and affecting leaderboards (like ignore this factor in consideration to warrant a nerf)

[neat jolt]

just make all raids only accessible post-105 trust

[minor bison]

scaling is like 10-15seconds faster with less emerald reward

[zenith coyote]

sometimes I forget that hero is an endgame mythic at level 91 (wtf?) and apocalypse being the highest low level mythic at 81
meanwhile mage's mythics are all rlly high level with lament being the lowest at 96 but also the lowest level mythic in the game with pure at level 65

who made these numbers???

[minor bison]

Pure got nerfed 😭

it was a sign of weath back then

[supple dawn]

pure is also still really good cause of the major id

[merry wharf]

Is this widely agreed on?

[minor bison]

is like that if i ran with my guildmate and they on level scaling

[tawny adder]

its more like 5-10 seconds

[zenith ivy]

its around those numbers yeah

what matters most is just having a competent party in general

[hard mural]

erm no?? its rng based because orphion sometimes lazy to move or decides to charge you to the wall 2s after entering boss room

[ancient raven]

there is literally a video attached to the post showing how fast you can nuke orphion with 1 level scaler in the party

[tawny adder]

and you act like you cant do that without levelscale lol

[zenith ivy]

you still have to rely on luck on levelscale parties to not get the charge

[ancient raven]

ok show

[zenith ivy]

its definently less likely but i still see it happen

[supple dawn]

less in notg around that in nol

[tawny adder]

not like anyones levelscaling in notg

[minor bison]

yeah for sure

[hard mural]

🤨

[zenith ivy]

does hsp levelscale notg

[hard mural]

no, we dont do levelscaling in any raid

[zenith ivy]

edited 😰

[minor bison]

deleted 😨

[hard mural]

i regret changing "in general" to "in any raid"

[frank coral]

This post is rage bait

@minor bison is the biggest issue in wynncraft please ban this guy

[minor bison]

yeah my bad

[ocean fox]

in addition to making xp gain mandatory it might also help to have level scaling diminish as people do more of the same thing at the same level (like the boss gets harder and harder for them as they continue to progress only through raids but doesn’t get harder and harder if they progress “normally” and increase their level (their power) without increasing their run count.

[sage scarab]

I found the runs we did in the parties made to post the provided clips were a lot more than 10-15 seconds shorter than the runs we usually get. For me the average run time went down by about a minute (avg 5.5min down to avg 4.5 min)

On top of that the bosses were 100% consistent as it would essentially just get instakilled. Parasite was only a little sketchy sometimes but thats only because I didn’t have enough experience on it to kill it efficiently

10-15 seconds is an understatement for sure

For groot it’s probably not that huge of a difference because a lot of the rooms are just time-gated but the fact that the boss can also get deleted in a matter of seconds makes the grind significantly easier to do.

Even if the 10-15 second time save is accurate, which I do not think it is, the fact that the bosses or enemies have essentially no room or time to fight back makes grinding the raid a cakewalk compared to using actually normal builds

[solid falcon]

A lot of scalers seem to paint this picture I feel like

I like being able to get fast times by getting lucky but with scaling you can guarantee kills before any time wasting attacks like Orphion's charge, chain lightning, Groot's air attack etc.

[gleaming sorrel]

tested some pure riftwalker in pfinder. Imo its not that great in pfinder compared to other scaling builds. But I could see it doing very well in graids if you have 1 winded slave

[gleaming sorrel]

as for whats optimal idk. at lvl 70 you can get a better atree and more pearlescent jewel and blue mask. 25k meteor at lvl 70, seems about the same with scaling as lvl65. also idk how or if the dps is higher with entropy from crumbling foundation since I have very little experience with riftwalker

[zenith ivy]

[sage scarab]

clearly this one graph shows that the issue isnt a problem whatsoever

[oak crane]

let the 2 levelscalers have fun man

level scaling is the only reason i will ever play nol

feels like 2.0 again…

[quick owl]

https://tenor.com/view/laugh-at-this-user-ryan-gosling-ryan-gosling-cereal-embed-fail-meme-gif-22090542

[frank coral]

Still I don’t think 1minnute is enough to offset the rewards penalty

(Again leaderboards player and sr player and guild xp player probably is advantage there)

[sage scarab]

I never mentioned rewards

[frank coral]

I send that by accident

The video

[frank coral]

@sage scarab idk do u think 1 minnutes faster completion can offset the reward penalty enough that this warrants a nerf (ignore all the other factors just this one)

[earnest trout]

honestly i don't think so just at first glance

[sage scarab]

I'm not entirely sure about the LE difference that the rewards give, but even if they don't offset it for the singular person involved there are other factors that offset the lower rewards aside from just time:

• The raid is significantly easier to complete and requires less effort due to the absurd strength scaling + ap loaning provides. There's no boss to fight and the mobs in the rooms die insanely quickly.
• Other people who are not scaling do not get reduced rewards. The person scaling doesn't get reduced aspects either

And on top of this the raid is significantly faster to do. This makes the fact that Guild Raids giving 1 le into a pool can just be given to the scalers to offset the lowered LE pulls even more.

All of these factors combined offset the lowered rewards a lot more than just what is initially there. Overall it just doesn't make sense to me that the most effecitve way to clear a raid is to be a low level as possible and optimize your build at that level rather than just being at the highest level to get the highest effectiveness.

And also this post's point isn't about the fact that the rewards are reduced. No build in the game should ever be able to do what I was doing in the clips shown here.

Whether there are reduced rewards or not, Scaling combined with AP loaning is way too strong and doesn't make sense for it to be the strongest and fastest method of clearing raids.

[sinful trench]

3 more likes to 100 likes :clueless:

[frank coral]

1. Accessibility > Exclusivity
   Guild raids are meant to be widely accessible, not gatekept by only the strongest, richest level 106 builds. Scaling allows lower-level players to participate meaningfully in guild content without being carried. AP loaning makes teamwork more impactful — you’re not just bringing “dead weight,” you’re enabling synergy.
   2. Rewards Already Balance It
   The reduced LE pulls for the scaler exist specifically to counteract the “power boost” they get. Yes, the run may be faster, but the individual doing the scaling isn’t reaping disproportionate personal rewards. The guild as a whole benefits, which fits the cooperative nature of guild raids.
   3. Time Efficiency Is the Real Reward
   Raids are repetitive by nature. If scaling makes runs smoother and less frustrating, that’s a win for player experience. Being “the fastest method” doesn’t necessarily mean it’s overpowered — it just means it’s efficient. Efficiency doesn’t break balance if the guild economy is still regulated by fixed LE inputs.
   4. High-Level Builds Still Matter Elsewhere
   Outside of raids, maxed builds are still vastly stronger in PvP, in endgame dungeons (LI, EO, etc.), and in general world play. Raids are only one slice of the endgame. Just because raids reward efficiency through scaling doesn’t mean progression is meaningless overall.
   5. Encourages Creative Playstyles
   Optimizing a low-level scaler build takes planning and guild coordination. It’s not “free” power — it’s a strategy. Systems that allow players to find creative, outside-the-box methods (like level-scalers) can make the game richer, not poorer.

⸻

So in short, someone defending it would say: Scaling + AP loaning isn’t a flaw, it’s a feature. It lets more people raid, it spreads guild rewards fairly, and it adds strategic depth rather than making high-levels obsolete.

Chat gpt reply.

[quick owl]

chatgpt

[frank coral]

Just nerf lower level ings and items

[sage scarab]

the hell am i reading

[quick owl]

https://tenor.com/view/bahaha-lol-hd-gif-minion-minion-laugh-gif-2154867417577880306

[frank coral]

That’s the root of the problem not fucking level scailing

[quick owl]

clanker gpt

[sage scarab]

"Encourages Creative Playstyles"

dawg i one shot the fucking boss

[frank coral]

Sir

It’s a ChatGPT generated answer please calm down

[sage scarab]

why did you even send it are we fr 💀

[quick owl]

the future of wynncraft constructive feedback

[sage scarab]

like am i supposed to try to talk to you or not 😭

[frank coral]

No

[sage scarab]

bet cya

[frank coral]

But take things serious tho here tho

I don’t think level scailing is the problem I think IMs scapegoating loaned Ap and level scailing is such a cringe thing to do

[sage scarab]

Nah

[frank coral]

We know the mid level /mid game items have been op for a long time yet no changes have done to them.

[sage scarab]

Not really tbh

[frank coral]

Half of mid game content is one shot table if u use shitty builds

Even for bosses

[sage scarab]

It's not.

[quick owl]

https://tenor.com/view/cretoi-icssmoke-gif-18150152580473674997

[frank coral]

No bro @tardy summit needs to get to work balancing these items

[sage scarab]

I don't think so

[frank coral]

Stop complaining about level scailing and loaned ap just nerf mid game items to not be that good at that level.

[sage scarab]

Nah

[frank coral]

Yep

[quick owl]

poor new players 🥀

we should just put a champion rank AD on screen every time someone dies in a raid

[sage scarab]

Please take me seriously.

[quick owl]

"GET 4 FREE AP NOW FOR $200"

[frank coral]

Yep how are they going to fund fruma

[quick owl]

Outside of raids, maxed builds are still vastly stronger in PvP, in endgame dungeons (LI, EO, etc.), and in general world play.
I love this part of the chatgpt reply

[frank coral]

Ct has no power to loaned ap we already know about this.

And I don’t think they will do anything to loaned ap lets be honest here

[quick owl]

Like if I replaced the MMO with destiny 2 this would be quite accurate but it just sounds so fucking stupid here

[frank coral]

So why not nerf other stuff instead if this is a real problem

[frank coral]

Chat gpt 🔥

[quick owl]

wait I don't like your opinions can you ask the clanker again?

[frank coral]

Yep

[frank coral]

Let me ask him

[frank coral]

Stronger Counter-Argument: Why Low-Level Scaling Makes Sense
1. Guild Raids Are Cooperative by Design
The whole point is that guilds clear content together. Having one person scale while others stay max level spreads roles: the scaler melts mobs, the high-levels provide survivability, buffs, and utility. It’s not “breaking” raids, it’s making teamwork feel meaningful.
2. Faster ≠ Broken
Raids being faster with a scaler doesn’t automatically mean they’re unbalanced. In practice, guilds want raids to be efficient — nobody enjoys dragging a raid out. If the system allows a “speed-run” comp, that’s just another viable strategy, the same way LI runs or EO speed kills emerged in the past.
3. The Reward Penalty Does Its Job
The LE reduction may not cripple the scaler, but it discourages solo-profit farming and keeps the guild economy in check. If raids became too profitable and too fast, then the game economy would break. But because LE input is fixed (1 per raid) and scalers eat the reduction, the system still has a cap.
4. Progression Still Matters Everywhere Else
Outside of raids, max-level builds dominate — in wars, PvP, dungeons, and overworld grinding. Raids are a niche mode with niche rules. Just because progression isn’t the best for this one activity doesn’t mean leveling is meaningless.
5. Adds Variety and Depth
If the “best raid team” was always “four maxed DPS with meta mythics,” raids would get stale fast. The fact that guilds can innovate with scaling/loaning shows that Wynncraft’s systems allow creativity. It’s not that low levels are stronger in general — it’s that guilds found a unique synergy the devs haven’t patched out, which keeps the meta dynamic.

⸻

👉 In short:
Low-level scaling + AP loaning isn’t “broken,” it’s a quirk of design that actually makes raids more accessible, more cooperative, and more interesting. Progression still matters for most of the game, while raids reward guilds that think outside the box.

[minor bison]

@grok sum this up in 50 words?

[frank coral]

I gotchu

TL;DR Counter-Argument:
Scaling + AP loaning in guild raids isn’t broken — it’s a cooperative strategy. Raids are meant to be efficient and team-focused, not just a reward for having the highest level. The LE penalty balances profits, progression still matters in the rest of the game, and having scaling builds adds variety and creativity instead of making endgame stal

[quick owl]

can you ask grok on how to get feedback muted on wynncraft discord? and also to provide some examples

[frank coral]

Nope

Still waiting on reverting broccoli shaman skin changes

[quick owl]

need x premium for that one?

[frank coral]

Yep

[frank coral]

Like foxo Chan’s favorite phrase this such a schoolyard taunt.

[quick owl]

sorry I only accept AI generated answers

https://tenor.com/view/robot-ai-robot-ai-meme-ai-meme-gif-509507551361818171

[olive thistle]

I fw the poster

[quick owl]

https://tenor.com/view/chum-bucket-mr-krabs-mr-krabs-robot-krab-borg-plankton-gif-18654093

[zenith coyote]

I'm sorry, but there's not enough “clanker” content in this chat room. Could we have some more — it would be really great for constructive feedback!

[jade sable]

Idm the concept of scaling, even purposeful levelscaling, but the extent of how good it is is kinda absurd

It really does feel like the issue of specific items rather than the system

I never played it so ig I never fully knew what it was like but damn, I don't think any build should be able to melt a boss that fast. Not to mention it was just one level scaler, not 2/3

Saving 10s definitely feels like an understatement as well, if it only saved 10s in nol no one would be play it. I just refuse to believe someone would lose out on all that profit to have 3% faster clears assuming 5min runs

Every 30 runs I get one more at the cost of 2stx+ le...... yeah

At the end of the day I think it's good to just find a middleground. Levelscaling is honestly a pretty interesting concept and I'd hate to see it just be gone. If done correctly it can also allow low-level mythics to see some usage which I'm all for. And sacrificing le for faster runs isn't really new, I mean you can also just consu spam and I'm sure it'll help as well. Again I think it really is specific items that just need tuning

[sage scarab]

if a middleground for the balance of it is found that'd be really cool. that likely would require a lot of work in terms of changing how scaling works alongside nerfing a lot of items around the level 80 range so it probably wont happen any time soon if its gonna happen at all

i would like to see that eventually though. i always thought it was stupid that you're just significantly stronger by optimizing the lower levels rather than the higher levels

[quick owl]

I mean it seems like they’ve always kept note of strong level scale items and balanced them somewhat, and we weren’t really hearing about it much

But then they decided to throw a wrench in the gears and introduce loaned AP

[neat jolt]

I didn't know boss-nuking was a creative playstyle 🤔

[mental shuttle]

At least it gives low level gear a use in endgame ig

[quick owl]

Bobs mythics need to be hard meta rn!!

[wary dagger]

Pretty sure it is for general playthroughs

Maybe escept the wand for arcanist and riftwalker

[quick owl]

My fault i meant hard raid meta

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/705533614108180502/1362169435577651240/healer_with_decent_tank_build.gif?ex=68accda5&is=68ab7c25&hm=2c38ac619802657f9a273f7d6746f617113eebe2f9cf28f1e90ee27bf5730321&

[wary dagger]

Hmmm then no clue

If we exclude crafteds then yeah

[minor bison]

meta slaves would play anything for faster run

[tawny adder]

i know ppl who spend enough on consus to basically not make money from nol so yes people are willing to do a lot to save time

[hard mural]

like- like- level scaling?

[lost talon]

lowkey i gotta start using ai to derail threads

[wary dagger]

You might get feedback muted for that sooo

[zenith ivy]

Might be tech

[zenith ivy]

🤓 ☝️

[supple dawn]

They don't give out feedback muted for anyone and just remove it so people can continue posting slop in here after a while so not really

[sinful trench]

100 likes, surely

[celest solstice]

I join in to say smurfing is completely busted

This is triple crafted hesperium with chain lightning 8 focus and 100% exploding at level 65 btw

It’s one of my favorite things to do in game, min maxing at lower levels for an advantage, but as long as there’s leaderboards it’s unhealthy 😔

I propose a casual and ranked raid mode and downscaling works in casual but not in ranked

[celest solstice]

However, it’s also genuinely nice to not overlevel yourself when playing with friends and the likes. I just wish there was some healthy solution

[supple dawn]

rb?

[minor bison]

hover the damage stat?

crazy timer as well

[frank coral]

Hey man we all know you are a level scaler abuser!

Please stop abusing this unintended game mechanic!

[wanton mortar]

RB alt account

[eternal kiln]

u

[wanton mortar]

What's with the BM Bro

[frank coral]

U pmo.

[wanton mortar]

What's with the BM Bro

[minor bison]

ignore the haters man

[celest solstice]

Who’s RB

[wanton mortar]

You

[celest solstice]

Genuinely who is it

I have two accounts but their names are Cinfu (my alt) and TrolleyBible, my main

One discord account, this one

[wanton mortar]

This one is the RB Alt Account

[celest solstice]

@warm fable do they mean you

Is this like a “person creates several new accounts to support themselves in an argument” situation

Or straight up mute or ban evasion

That I am being accused of despite account age etc

Anyways gn chat it’s 11 pm despite Britains time zone being an hour earlier than home

[mental shuttle]

rb = rage bait(er)

[bitter sonnet]

7min 32sec clear sounds like ur teammates just sucked

[celest solstice]

Ohh I see

People used to just spell that out

[celest solstice]

I’ve outdamaged laby and abso 😔 though yes, these teammates were not exactly good

[minor bison]

doubling down is crazy

[zenith ivy]

Talk is crazy for a 3 min boss

[zenith coyote]

did laby throw traps opposite of the worm's current location and towards the wall praying that teammates would go to it??
and abso blood sorrowed the traps thinking that they were the enemy all along???

94% dmg contribution is crazy are you sure you had teammates at that point

[onyx bolt]

the amount of yapping with 3 minute boss is insane

[frank coral]

If I was level scailing and it took me 3 minnutes to kill boss I might as well just /kill at that point and start another raid on another lvl 105 abso class

Raid scailing is so op!

[median hull]

it's not op because even though i did 55% of the damage my teammates credit the acolyte instead

[wary dagger]

Ye dfact dum even without extra AP
https://youtu.be/7rzzS4xg3Tw

[median hull]

Why is every showcase with a divine trumpet support, I feel like a paper-thin glass cannon playing this in pfinder 😭

[supple dawn]

And still died both phases

[minor bison]

3 reso 1 burger can skip phase already

cant believe people just glaze on level scaling just now even it is a year ago

[median hull]

What makes burger so good? I have no idea what it does lmao

[shrewd narwhal]

super spell spam and impossible to die while giving good team support

the ultimate noob gameplay

[median hull]

Oh so even tho it doesn't provide amazing numbers, the team support makes up for it

[shrewd narwhal]

it's mainly the fact that you cannot die

but the support is pretty good

[minor bison]

gives provoke
gives radiance (team buff)
lots of health
gives overhealth
"self sustaining" health

[earnest trout]

oh and you're any acolyte/fallen's best friend

also 30% radiance is insane

[quick owl]

Gives resonance players free bloodpool

[median hull]

atp I'm gonna need to try it to believe it

anyone drop a link? or is it on sugo's thread

[ocean fox]

guys what is a burger

[lost talon]

https://tenor.com/view/what's-a-father-xxxtentacion-what's-that-gif-11961021069386735939

[fair bloom]

Bloodpact paladin support

Under guardian

Crafted Guardian - Paladin Blood Pact Support
By Bonlo
Build Link:
https://wynnbuilder.github.io/build...IVIE2SY441z9c9KDz9z9v8m9I05KG33cQUvIlj-0NVJs0
Uses: NOTG, NOL

Guardian - Paladin Blood Pact Support
By RenZenthio
Build Link:
https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CJ0O0VT63+w4cur1Jph+yuW778F1DCOgvbBzs+3SzDP3
Uses: NOTG, NOL

Realistically you can use it anywhere

God knows it’s free LI with it

[ocean fox]

ly

[solid falcon]

I'm happy

[rustic crag]

hi warze

[solid falcon]

hi

[sage scarab]

victory

[idle totem]

only took several months

[solid falcon]

Better than complete neglect