#End the rushing, take your time, we'll love the game all the same!

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

frozen bolt
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This is a message, a message of love, of hatred, of a bittersweet relationship with this game and most importantly, with its developers.

With the upcoming patches, this has become more and more apparent; you're running up against deadlines, not against fulfilling goals. This is extremely detrimental to the quality of the production updates that get pushed, and it's really, really sad to see developers so committed making "silly" mistakes with deadlines and timezones, such as Terminated not having enough time to get around the Timelock cooldown bug that's been popping up in feedback threads.

This is a message to remind you, the developers, and you, the content team, to take it easy and most importantly, do what other successful teams do; quality of content over deadlines, ALWAYS.
Few examples of studios doing this are Annapurna Interactive and the team behind Outer Wilds, which took over three years and several very, very ugly alpha tests, which in the end became my favorite videogame experience ever. Digital Extremes does the same with Warframe; lots of patches, lots of hotfixes, but most importantly, lost of testing before releasing to production servers.

In the end, this is meant both as a thank you for your efforts (to the development team, the CT, and AT Team) and as a reminder that we can wait, at least most of us can, e.g. GooseCore is a long-going player that would be happy to wait for more polish on the patches than for more patches to come out in general. Same goes for me as well!

We love you, Wynncraft Team, and thank you! 🥰

Take it easy, and work on the quality before looking at "deadlines", those are a silly concept in the scheme of Wynncraft anyways 🙄

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(this is just my two cents on the rushing of certain patches, pls nobody take it personally except goosecore, he's allowed to)

tranquil ridge
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Things weren't necessarily rushed, I'm just capable of making a mistake in what should or shouldn't get pushed with the hotfix

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It happens all the time because we're all human and it's easy to just misjudge stuff

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The change shouldn't have been in the hotfix because it wasn't fully finished yet

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(which is on me lol)

tardy lark
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so nobody reviews the patch before pushing it?

vocal chasm
tardy lark
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and they do nothing with it

dapper plinth
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They pushed the beta with an entire raid not working 🤷

tranquil ridge
# tardy lark so nobody reviews the patch before pushing it?

I'm unsure how you read it like that. This patch had more than 25 changes with varying degrees of size, do you expect someone to review every single one of these a second time before the hotfix actually gets pushed?

Like i said I put the timelock stuff into the hotfix and because i misjudged how soon this hotfix was releasing it couldn't be fully and properly tested and fixed up before the hotfix got pushed

tranquil ridge
tardy lark
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bcs 1 time how time shows it is not enough

plucky basalt
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(somewhat related matter is there anything moving for the people who didnt get their share buy orders cancelled on the wardrobe patch)

tranquil ridge
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it was on me for it not being finished before I slept! which i've said already a few times, but yeah

tardy lark
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wait what

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how this is even possible

mighty flax
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wynnmeow

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this server does have a track record of releasing very obvious bugs

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take that one fabled necklace for example

stark hemlock
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good luck to the developers!!!!

tranquil ridge
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games will always have bugs lmao, game development is incredibly complex and deep especially an rpg no less

mighty flax
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of course

tranquil ridge
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I think i've explained pretty well how mistakes can happen and how we resolve them as quick as we can

tardy lark
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im angry bcs u do nothing to prevent them in the future

pliant sundial
# tranquil ridge games will always have bugs lmao, game development is incredibly complex and dee...

the issue with a lot of things is that most bugs in most games are tackled and announced by CT that they are working on them, and bugs that aren't solved usually are compensated, for example a item being eliminated by a bug is usually given back, here there is not such a thing, this types of situations just make the average player to go mad, is better to avoid those situation with Proper communication (with at least someone doing PR work) + proper actions to compensate (maybe untradable shares, bombs or offers, something to make the player not go mad and leave the server)

tranquil ridge
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I obviously dont want anyone to be angry, it sucks when something you want to play with isn't working as intended. I dont think its fair to say that we do nothing to improve our processes and avoid things that aren't working properly going into a release.

It's quite a baseless claim that is evidently wrong by how much work we've put in through regular patches to dramatically reduce the amount of annoyances and bugs in the game but also increase qol drastically where things haven't always made the most sense

tranquil ridge
tardy lark
pliant sundial
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there is nothing that makes the player engage even after a bad experience with a bug or with some situation that can be avoided or communicated, is not CT fault since until recently the server wasn't experimented with this type of updating system, but surely could be a improvement area

pliant sundial
tranquil ridge
tranquil ridge
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not to mention it taking longer than the bug is even existing.

pliant sundial
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Like in my case i did leave the server twice, one bc i didn't knew english and it was 9 years ago (like i was playing 1 year without completing more than 3 quests, but is unrelated to the topic) and the other was more recently, i lost my mythic with 96% oa because of a bug, i did report it, i did knew it was not coming back and leave for like a month, if it wasn't because of friends that asked me to come back i wouldn't come back, especially because in my situation it costed me 6 months to get that mythic (i don't do LR and im a housing main so imagine how dificult it was to get it), bug+changes treatment to players is one of the worst parts of wynncraft, it doesn't matter how incredible the server can be or how fun is, the moment that a bug or big change affects you directly, you are most likely to leave the server or at least not play it for a long time

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and at that time it was even worse because rn i believe that CT has learned how to communicate to players a lot of stuff (something really good is how recently bugs have been talked as something public), this type of things are imo more important that a lot of things ingame, you even have examples of games being abandoned because of this type of things

tranquil ridge
# pliant sundial Like in my case i did leave the server twice, one bc i didn't knew english and i...

Yeah obviously having a negative experience sucks and we never want that. I didn't come up with the rules around reimbursing items but I can understand why they're there. It is always going to be extremely difficult to prove exactly what was lost (especially in an rpg with such deep item systems with rolls etc). Not only that but the time it would take to properly give back everything that was lost would be astronomical along with the fact that I very much doubt that any moderator should have the ability to spawn in any item with any roll so it would always have to be handled by an admin with those permissions (there are basically none of those)

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Sometimes I think people have got to try to have some perspective on issues. Often people skip over parts of changelogs that dont matter to their favourite class or raid or whatever and then act like it was the easiest thing in the world to not make a mistake on that.

If it was just those singular changes by themself then sure its easy but theres often hundreds of changes that are pushed along with hundreds more that are for the future and being worked on right now! Mistakes are innevitable in that scenario where we are constantly making hundreds of changes to the game

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In the last year we have been extremely receptive and responsive to feedback and bug reports on discord and I think you can have some trust that if you find something and mention it to us it will be resolved as quickly as we can make it happen like

plucky basalt
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yeah more bug reports here felt heard over forums

tranquil ridge
tardy lark
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bcs im just an average player i can only see how after (almost) every patch something gets broken

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and that makes me think nothing gets changed to prevent huge bugs from appearing

tranquil ridge
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Unfortunately you're going to have to understand that some stuff is going to break every patch. There will always be unintended consequences to new stuff that breaks old stuff or one of our hundred person team making a mistake and not being able to fix it in time or not realising or forgetting to push a file to a hotfix that was necessary for something to work

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We have improved our processes for pushing updates hugely in the past year, its the only thing that has allowed us to push such frequent and large updates in this time (Probably the most frequent and large stuff Wynn has ever done)

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Obviously increasing our scope can mean theres more possibility for stuff to go wrong though 😄

plucky basalt
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Have been hearing bout stuff pushed to hotfix/patch without knowing when that comes so thats that

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Is that like notified only a few hours before pushing?

tranquil ridge
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Timelock being Slightly less usable for half a day is really not that high up there in terms of huge bugs appearing

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lets be real about that

plucky basalt
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The way it made it into the patch tho makes me concerned hearing you didnt know when patch gets pushed

tranquil ridge
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Well hotfixes depend on the necessity of what needs to get pushed (a large bug may mean we hotfix ASAP to get a fix in)

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and some hotfixes may have pending changes for quite a while

tardy lark
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can i ask what can i do to report gourmand missions still not working properly

tranquil ridge
tardy lark
tranquil ridge
tardy lark
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oh

frozen bolt
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My extra two cents after reading up; yes, things need 100% playthroughs 2 or 3 times, but that's what dependency injection is for; you inject bosses that get one-shot or rooms that fast-forward / autocomplete themselves, and that only works in development environments explicitly (so as to not accidentally push that to production), then the playthroughs become fast enough to be feasible

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everything in a raid should be replaceable with a fast version of it on a developer's whim, that's the whole point of DI

white beacon
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wa

white beacon
frozen bolt
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btw terminated i'm in the process of learning java, if u wanna grab a junior dev (don't) hmu

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(my code is bad ::< )

modern breach
modern breach
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Bug report sys is indeed rlly bad, so its nice to see that atleast the team thinks it deserves an update ^^

eternal plover
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Are people actually tweaking about a day-lived ability bug? Lmao, be happy its a bug and not an another class design choice

frozen bolt
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We're not "tweaking about a day-lived ability bug", it's the recurrence of these issues that's problematic in nature

modern breach
frozen bolt
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I say that just makes the ability of quick testing even more important ::p

modern breach
modern breach
tranquil ridge
frozen bolt
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Not saying that'll necessarily happen, but it is still something I worry about, so once again; take your time, we'll still be around ::)

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(or rather, specifically with the timelock situation, please organize hotfixes in a way that allows for time to fix stuff 😭 i don't wanna see ya'll rushed for a deadline i wanna see ya'll happy with what u made)

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-# like trickster which is AWESOME

tranquil ridge
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I already said deep integration testing would be almost impossible, please accept that.

Bugs will inevitably arise when we release new stuff and when there are hundreds of changes in each patch, even if we have a 99% success rate there will be at least one every time!

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In this case it was a mistake on my part but many other cases are relatively unavoidable because of how systems interact with each other or how players can create more possible scenarios than would ever be testable because we have made such a diverse game

frozen bolt
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I accept that deep integration testing is (almost) impossible, and with Fruma behind the corner, I understand that now is not the time for a huge refactor like that, especially when the Fruma update itself could bring new testing tools;

Would it also be impossible to speed up human testing? 1HP enemies, sped up room times, is that also not feasible? That's mostly what I was thinking of when talking about testing in general, ignoring the paradigm i referred to enough times already

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Also, "relatively unavoidable" makes it sound like the Wynn server's code is a bit of a spaghetti mess; is that the case? If so, is a refactor planned or going to happen at some point?

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Again I'd like to emphasize on one point; I'd love to see the teams that make Wynncraft possible happy with what they've achieved, rather than time-constrained against deadlines. Setting a deadline for Fruma was, in my opinion, an unhealthy move, but then again I'm not Salted so I'm no expert

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Just wanna see you lads n' lasses happy and hopefully see positive responses, like how Trickster got named "4D Chess" and was basically loved by (almost) everyone

tranquil ridge
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There's not a refactor that could make fully automated game completion testing like you want possible lol

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And we already have a testing environment where there are very quick ways to test things, don't worry.

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There is very little spaghetti in the stuff we write in the last year's, we just make an RPG game where lots of systems can interact with each other and someone can make a change that has an unintended consequence on something else like

frozen bolt
frozen bolt
plucky basalt
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(Nol being broken through beta was certainly something)

frozen bolt
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Oh well, at the end of the day your explanation clears up a lot of internal unknowns about why or how things might be done, so it's nice to have an answer the community can consider "official" in terms of reputation and role of the source, and it's nice to know that things aren't being rushed, just that it was a mistake that just happened.

tranquil ridge
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We have some safeguards to avoid some in development stuff not getting pushed to live in any circumstances and somehow the entire nol raid configurations ended up there so despite the bug with it not starting in beta being fixed, it didn't matter because the raid simply wasn't there 😂

frozen bolt
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Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just speculating

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Ok nvm

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It's way more complicated than that with all the stuff that slots in

tranquil ridge
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You're not understanding our workflow, which I understand because you're obviously not on our side of things but you're gonna have to trust that we do all we can to avoid bugs making it to live but we can make mistakes and will probably make more in future, just like any game or any product in general!

frozen bolt
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I guess the last thing to do is figure out why the NoL raid configuration was messed up in the first place, which isn't my job but yours, and you're the experts in the field, so I'll leave this question for the devs to figure out ::p

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Only thing left to say is just... 🤞 fingers crossed that no more configuration mishaps happen like that 😅

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oh and almost forgot; good luck with all your present and future endeavours, Wynn team! i probably won't be around all the time but i hope i get to play through most of the game's updates ::D

tranquil ridge
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Everything apart from the internal structure for raids is handled by the content team! So we have a lot of people that can adjust things there if they break

frozen bolt
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inb4 config breaks during AS peak times (everyone in NA/EU asleep / working)