Tricksters Major Flaw from a design/gameplay perspective and my proposal to fix it

[shut flicker]

slap it on damage reduc maybe

[urban linden]

Fucking echo or something 💀💀💀💀💀

[crystal ivy]

😂

[worn forge]

Despite the obvious air synergies with the kit

[shut flicker]

well what was your concept for the air debuff Term, it coulda just been the worst one straight up

[crystal ivy]

can be tricky to do without overcomplicating stuff! But it is possible definitely

[shut flicker]

or was it just never a thing because you did the other ones first and realized the AP issue

[worn forge]

Just turn the ele debuffs into one consolidated vuln, and have the other trick thresholds proc cd reduction or other cool effects

[crystal ivy]

but again, How does that improve the fact that we want you to build bulkiness and not make it worse. Auto has already said its barely effective as is!

[urban linden]

Sandbagging would let you have a more consistent uptime while relying on whatever other cd reduction ability added would lead to less uptime idrk

Honestly thats how i thought it shoulda been at the start

[drifting reef]

as in like, a different trigger than getting hit?

i dont think it does help with the intention of building bulk. im mostly tryign to say that the current version of sandbagging allows me to continue to build 0 bulk and not really care about it.

i can also just forego the bulk building and easily get defence through raid buffs which kinda mitigates the encouragement to put it into my build

[opal badge]

wouldnt it just be an extra sentence on malicious mockery

and its not like some abilities arent already really long (ecall)

[urban linden]

You gotta tinker with the threshold tbh

[crystal ivy]

I think we would end up with one of two scenarios if this happened:

1: The new cd reduction would be deliberately weak because otherwise sandbagging and the bulkiness aspect that we want for trickster may as well not exist. This would cause players to say "the cooldown reduction node is weak!" and "we dont want to build like that" and it wouldn't be accepted as a solution.

2: The new cd reduction would be strong enough to be accepted by the playerbase and original sandbagging and the bulkiness requirement that we have set for trickster is totally obsolete

[urban linden]

I would also like to reiterate once again that clones should spawn on exit thank you 😀

[shut flicker]

not to go off topic but I do agree

[crystal ivy]

taking a defence raid buff does mean that you're not taking a better damage one though quite frequently

[drifting pelican]

not everyone agrees with that just so you know
I think its fine but plenty of people find it activating on entering Vanish perferable

[urban linden]

You would need to find a perfect balance between the two

[crystal ivy]

so its at least something

[worn forge]

Trick relying on vanish still weird to me

[crystal ivy]

Which is already a very complicated red node when compared across all archetypes, an extra "chunk" of information can exacerbate that

[urban linden]

At the end of the day if your gonna try and change up the way the game is played you cant just do it and get fearmongered by the playerbase to change it back

You either stand on it or you dont 🤷

Unless whatever you changed is completely dogshit (thaumic)

[crystal ivy]

we've done this dance before lmao and we'll do it again. Have you ever heard of the archetype known as fallen

[drifting pelican]

dude
I don't think this is the best way to approach this

[worn forge]

Please succumb to the fearmongering it would be so much better to play and js more fun

[devout current]

i understand wanting trickster to require some ehp but in my opinion reworking sandbagging is MUCH more important and should definitely be a priority over including ehp. imo that should come after sandbagging is changed, maybe in some other form, but that’s just my take

[urban linden]

Yeah but like thaumic was complete dogshit im sorry

[urban linden]

Oh no the 7 people who want to use suprise strike boozle !!!!

[worn forge]

Movement heavy class that hides in the shadows, where the goal is to get hit to get reasonable uptimes on abilities

[shut flicker]

i think opening with bamboozle is the only reason to make it like this, you cant cancel clones, you have to wait for MI cd to go into vanish which arbitrarily slows the class down and removes your escape strat since you cant just dash either otherwise you have to wait for the vanish cd again and getting hit in vanish and losing a clone blows

[urban linden]

Idk i dont think this is as terrible as thaumic and it can work just needs some tinkering

[worn forge]

Relying on enemies to make your kit function has never appealed to me

[urban linden]

Yeah thats if they keep sandbagging as the only cd reduction

[drifting pelican]

harvester and shepherd (the latter formerly at least) be like

[surreal ferry]

i think the issue with sandbagging design at least to me is that while it does promote bulk it doesn't do so in a really... interesting way? like, apart from sandbagging, what benefit in the tree is there to get bulk when you have high mobility teleports thrown all willy nilly and req. vanish for the class?

i feel like assassin's class identity is to you know not be forcibly face tanking random stuff because at least in my head with how shadestepper was (supposed to be) designed and how acro is now and with bamboozle tps / shadow projection teleportation / vanish -- i do like having that design space to build tanky but it feels less so like an interesting product of abilities like paladin's manachism / rejuv / synergy with ssurge / mythril skin / sparkling -- but apart from sandbagging which yes i think could have been interesting there's not like. a ton to imply that you should be tanking stuff other than DR from mirror image and like distraction / misdirection, i suppose? but those effects feel quite isolated imho and also that overhealth node is Bad bad so i'm glad that's on the radar 🙏

[worn forge]

This is a high skill movement class that the devs are pushing for us to get hit on purpose

[urban linden]

For like fallen tho they should give up on the hp sustain shit im ngl i think they need to just lean into making fallen more risky

[worn forge]

Like I dont understand how that synergizes at all

[urban linden]

Its not hard to get hit in the gameplay loop

[drifting pelican]

I do think this is an issue
Odd that Trickster is being made to tank when thematically, that's the entire point of having clones

[worn forge]

Nah js build ls and hpr bro

[urban linden]

Unless its a boss that doesnt fight back

Ion really see an issue with a 9 damage item meta if it actually lived up to high risk high reward

[worn forge]

Its not that it's hard to get hit, its just counter intuitive and is a waste of clones

[drifting pelican]

I don't mind sandbagging much even, just found that it was staying as procing on damage odd
if we had some kind of like 5% self damage ability or something I would think its perfect

[urban linden]

Your refreshing your clones cd anyways like when i tried it i had like a pretty good uptime on my cycle

[shut flicker]

well yeah this is true, trickster shouldnt be building cancer leo second wind boreal no ones arguing that and no one here likes sandbagging its just a matter of finding a replacement that still incentivises people to build bulkier (not tanky)

[worn forge]

Yeah i see clones as a safety net, not a means to start tanking shit because you want to

[opal badge]

just seems like it goes against the point of what assassin is

[drifting reef]

@crystal ivy i meant to ask but i keep forgetting, what do u think about the fact that trickster wants to get hit but Vanish constantly makes it lose aggro, do you think there should be something to allow for a more consistent way to get hit like taking aggro?

[urban linden]

I just think etw is like too much of a waiting simulator + the stupid clones on entrance shit

[crystal ivy]

These are one and the same thing to me. Sandbagging is the only thread holding this bulkiness intention even if its not the best form of that. Removing it now as a bandaid to reintroduce it later would cause annoyance from players that create new (pretty much all damage) builds around the change and then get screwed by a further change. Not everyone will know that we intend to change it back in future either.

It would also be reintroduced as a "Downside" rather than being baked in from its inception and this would just lead to "why are you nerfing trickster"

[shut flicker]

yeah dude again the people complaining about trickster not having build diversity just want it to look like their other 14 classes

[worn forge]

Trick should be nerfed anyway

But not in a way that makes the gameplay loop feel worse

[drifting pelican]

changing sandbagging so much so soon wouldn't go over well either!

[urban linden]

Idk i get the mentality of wanting more people to build sustain and shit but i feel like etw is getting neglected a lil too much

[shut flicker]

etw is to an extent supposed to be neglected here, it shouldnt be the build option for all 3 archetypes in a class imo

thats whats actually leading to stale build diversity

[urban linden]

I think any sort of build should be possible

[shut flicker]

possible but shouldnt thrive

[drifting pelican]

yeah but if ETW is always best then it's just the same items over and over with dif abilities

(for damage I mean)

[worn forge]

Every build can thrive in their own niche, the problem is building anything other than damage is a waste unless you need ehp to crutch on

[urban linden]

I disagree

[worn forge]

Instead of forcing players to build away from damage, why not offer proper incentives to doing so

[shut flicker]

tricksters whole thing is sacrificing damage for uptime

[urban linden]

This isnt a easy fix theres fundamental issues with the game that leads to this

You cant just change a bunch of abilities and fix it without like shitting on build diversity

[drifting pelican]

yeah
this is the reason 99% of people who think trick is bad think as such
they burn everything in one go and don't like being on cooldown so long after

[worn forge]

Yeah ETW is the best for damage and I dont see an issue with that. Nobody is forcing you to build it, but we're being forced not to build it

[surreal ferry]

to be fair a good 0% of wynn's population has any opinion on trickster ain't nobody playing this archetype

[drifting pelican]

ok yeah you're 100% right here

[drifting pelican]

Thank you for being an example

[urban linden]

Theres just no need to build for defenses and shit

[worn forge]

Again I think its very ironic that trick doesn't get Air ele bonus because it synergizes so well with dodge

[surreal ferry]

lmao assassin is still like least played class by far i'm just stating a fact that this is unpopular not that it's bad just that it's unpopular

[shut flicker]

trickster's damage is so high that it doesnt want you to build full damage, this game is so boring now because everything uses etw and when people have to build something else they have a meltdown

[remote finch]

#1404677597555589192 message

[crystal ivy]

I think that it's really useful to have aggro mechanics but it's not a complete necessity to be able to tank hits. Playing skillfully can get you aggro in many circumstances though it obviously won't be as good as a forced aggro

[worn forge]

Playing skillfully can allow you to get hit on purpose

[opal badge]

the damage is so high you can build full damage and in decent parties just burst things down to invul phases which is already a major problem

[drifting reef]

the issue with "playing skillfully can get you aggro" is that trickster having vanish actively prevents this from happening. no matter how good you are, using dash makes you instantly lose aggro no matter what, which can be really annoying sometimes

[crystal ivy]

Yeah I can agree with that! It is a pretty big thing to change systems wise but I fully believe that unless you're swapping to a brand new weapon you should get any of your shit cleared if you stop holding your current weapon

[surreal ferry]

but a forced de-aggro from vanish is surely not what you want either

[drifting pelican]

I think Trickster is slightly overtuned for most activities rn if anything
not a lot but like it's legit a solid option in my experience so far
Noxious Haze is great if it can be placed on the whole team by an attentive Trickster, and its also a very quick and snappy frontliner
you gotta know when to be in-their-face aggressive and when to back off for a tiny bit before going back into the breach

[drifting reef]

https://medal.tv/games/minecraft/clips/kSSLeaWH9jFH10UvY?invite=cr-MSxybnAsMjcxNzU1MjA4&v=66 agreed this shit is crazy lol. high level DPS makes Trickster a top pick because of its unreal levels of burst

[crystal ivy]

Yep that's true, I kinda wish vanish was something that you chose to use instead of being a forced thing when off cooldown. Problem is that without a dreaded shift cast it wouldn't be doable and would feel pretty meh even if we did do it

[drifting reef]

that's fair yeah

[shut flicker]

well yeah this is true, but I'm saying it's trying to incentivize not building damage to balance out the high damage numbers, it definitely does still need tweaking and honestly I think ETW should be hit with a pretty hefty nerf soon, no boss should be bursted down to an invul stage I think, wynn's become more of a speedrun than a game at this point which sucks but it's a problem for another day

[opal badge]

exactly the problem with current design

[drifting pelican]

If you use Bamboozle to go through and around enemies to outmaneuver them with the literal instant acceleration from teleportation, they you'll most likely be hit occasionally. Which is why Sandbagging, even if flawed, isn't like a disaster or anything, it's still useful in some playstyles

[remote finch]

I think it’d be nice to have some kind of ability that consumes a potion when you take a certain action and heals you.

[opal badge]

which can be remedied with lowering the numbers and compensating with a different type of cd reduction

[worn forge]

Yeah it looks really fun to play, high speed and mechanically intensive, perfect for ETW but alas

Btw do you not use bamb in your cycle

[shut flicker]

yeah this isnt even really a trickster problem at this point this is just damage being so out of control

[drifting pelican]

let's be honest ET combos are so nuts because STR and DEX are multiplicative off of one another

[drifting reef]

how could i not

[shut flicker]

and unfortunately as much as I think the CT's been doing a great job recently, they really had to tackle damage a while ago because now shit like this has just become the norm

yeah bamb is like entirely necessary for the kit lol

[urban linden]

Its been the norm for years

[drifting reef]

i mean... nah, it is a trickster problem. trickster's burst is incredibly high.

[shut flicker]

I know

[opal badge]

it tries to incentivize not building damage but it also incentivizes the opposite

[worn forge]

Mb I didn't notice it the first time around

The tp range is shorter than I expected

What build are you using?

[shut flicker]

well it incentivizes the opposite because damage is so high, trickster does do very high damage but if dps was in a more balanced state it wouldnt incentivize this

[drifting reef]

i look down to prevent myself from movign far

[urban linden]

Look down

[drifting reef]

obli proscen stardew

[worn forge]

I dont play 3rd person 🥀

[crystal ivy]

As we said last patch, there is a lot of spring cleaning to do and it may not be perfect in the short term. I'm glad that through these threads I've come across many others that can see past the short term good feeling of insane DPS meta's and think about what's actually fun longer term

[opal badge]

right, which is why damage should be lowered and there should be another way to lower cd for better uptime

[shut flicker]

damage should be lowered and I think that again sandbagging isnt great but the alternative should be much weaker

[worn forge]

Yeah im all for mellowing out tricks damage in favour of better uptime (in a way that doesn't require you to int)

[crystal ivy]

Even if the damage is lowered we still think that trickster should be a more tanky archetype and be more inclined to build those stats

[drifting pelican]

said to death at this point, but not here
you can't do damage if you're dead

[worn forge]

Other than sandbagging I see no reason to build tanky, do you plan on adding more incentives?

[shut flicker]

and when I say damage should be lowered I mean like build damage mainly ETW and some stronger air builds

[drifting pelican]

so I went with a 59k ehp inferno build...!
and I still get enough damage to murk just about everything I find sooooooo

[shut flicker]

it's been so out of control for so long and it's probably one of the least healthy things that coulda happened to the game

[drifting pelican]

(by every thing I find I also mean graid enemies and whatnot)

[violet pewter]

Trickster tna meta:
stand still and take damage while being reso beam spammed and protected by bigmac guardian

Trickster ladies and gentlemen lol

[urban linden]

Wynncraft

[drifting pelican]

air items need nerfing, STR and DEX need to stack more like DEF and AGI instead of being multiplicative maybe?

[urban linden]

The pinnacle of gameplay

[violet pewter]

Sandbagging hack

[crystal ivy]

Soul siphons overhealth is better with some more health but other than that I agree there isn't a lot.

Its why I said if the mechanic of sandbagging changes to not have that then it would need a solution

[urban linden]

Maybe make the aggro better

[remote finch]

I think what’s happening is that after repeatedly making negative comments toward players who focus on DPS, those DPS-focused players end up giving up. As a result, it just seems like there are more of a certain type of player—similar to an echo chamber effect....

[drifting pelican]

man trick rework is JUST out and alr has issues dang

[urban linden]

Not like paladins fuckass tho

[surreal ferry]

ya this was my point there's 2 abilities that "want" you to get hit (or want the enemy to attack, whatever) and the rest is equally applicable to insurance for low EHP players -- even if they increase EHP they do so kind of indiscriminately

[worn forge]

Does it scale off hp? All other overhealth sources dont

[shut flicker]

they probably should tbh

[drifting pelican]

overhealth pretty much always scales of the hp of the one getting the overhealth no?

[violet pewter]

Overheath scales to hp, all sources are “% of hp”

[drifting pelican]

literally called % Overhealth

[worn forge]

Recipient hp not off the caster

[violet pewter]

If i beam someone, i get 70% of my max hp in overhealth, and the recipient gets up to 70% of their max hp

[worn forge]

So why would I as caster care about building hp

[drifting pelican]

for their own overhealth gain

[crystal ivy]

You are a receiver too lol

[worn forge]

Im good on allat

Id rather rely on mechanics

[surreal ferry]

conceptually i like the idea of like a bruiser take damage to deal damage thing but not in such a way where said bruiser has 4 different interesting movement options one of which is also a forced de-aggro

[drifting pelican]

and if overhealth is a mechanic intended to let you take more damage opportunities and reduce risks?

[worn forge]

(Also the bruiser is an assassin)

[remote finch]

If it were to be proportional to the caster's maximum HP, then tanks might have more meaning.

[drifting pelican]

that would be OP to a laughable degree
ONE hypertank gives all the glass cannons the raw hp of more hypertanks on a cooldown

[remote finch]

Currently, even if you build a tank, your teammates will die quickly and spectators will say things like "Not yet?" or "/kill pls"

[worn forge]

Yeah tank isn't real outside of guard imo

[violet pewter]

You could probably get away with acolyte abso

[worn forge]

The line between tank and support blurs here

[violet pewter]

Its not guardian but it would be a solid “support-tank”

[drifting pelican]

I mean
only 1 of the 5 classes is designed to be able to take sustained damage well
and only 1 archetype of that class is designed with taking damage as a focus
and only 1 3 weapon for that class gives any team survival support

(anything giving Guardian or Rally MIDs)

(oh and Hero's MID too ig)

[crystal ivy]

What is this in relation to?

[worn forge]

Im all for more tanks in the game its just weird to have it be trick

[shut flicker]

but theyre not saying trick should be a tank, it just shouldnt go full damage

I think their goal seems to be more like a bruiser than a tank

[drifting pelican]

trick is this quasi-tank thing
has the effect of a tank but doesn't actually eat damage like a tank does
at least, by theme alone

[urban linden]

Never saw sandbagging as something that promoted being a tank it was just a thing that incentivized you to build more eph

[surreal ferry]

wynn's bosses just offer no design space for interesting team comp / tank play at all like you can tank greg or you can just backpedal and kill him faster you can tank orphion or you can just eviscerate him

[crystal ivy]

You believe that the archetypes should each have different specialties right? That's the whole basis of what makes having archetypes interesting to play with in the first place

[grizzled river]

it's weird the only other fire element 100 base resistance class is a tank?

[worn forge]

An assassin that doesn't go full damage is just a strange choice to me idk

[grizzled river]

you get your damage by tanking

[worn forge]

No you get qol by tanking

[urban linden]

Im not tanks will never work in the current state

[shut flicker]

that's fine, but archetypes are meant to deviate partially from what the class is supposed to be and I think each class has one archetype that fits the fantasty the closest, for assassin it's shade, for warrior it's probably paladin, for shaman it's probably acolyte

[violet pewter]

There is build synergy in raids that definitally works, the most relevant example that was posted earlier here is bigmac reso

[remote finch]

There's no point if the tank can't properly improve the survivability of his allies.

[violet pewter]

Theres others too, and also trick noxious opens up room for more compositions

[shut flicker]

if every archetype functioned how the base class does in terms of gameplay, builds, strategy etc it would just be boring, archetypes are meant to bring a ton of variety to the game in all aspects

[violet pewter]

Tank can charge acolyte bloodpool which then supports allies

Which feeds back into the tank

[shut flicker]

yeah this is another thing, trickster is a debuffer/buffer that can also deal damage itself, but I dont think it's meant to be the prime dps, it can be if it has to, but i think giving a dps teammate noxious and supporting with misdirection which the clones should do and the overhealth and stuff is its role and it still being able to do high burst damage is why it doesnt deviate from assassin too much

[worn forge]

Then dont include vanish as a core ability in an archetype that requires you to get hit

[violet pewter]

Acolyte adds 3 debuffs and overheals which helps the trickster do both sandbagging and nox

[remote finch]

Yeah, that's an example of a tank working well.

[grizzled river]

you get your damage from tanking

[drifting pelican]

I think this is false
each archetype is a different facet of what that class can do, or a direction it can go
"Warrior" doesn't just mean a sturdy knight, it can also mean a berserker or martial artist
"Assassin" is being taken a little more liberally here, with the archetypes instead focusing on different methods to keep yourself out of harms way while dealing damage
also, if anything, Ritualist is the "default" shaman I'd say going by your examples for assassin and warrior

[devout current]

maybe the overhealth from soul siphon, or possibly the strength of the debuffs could scale heavily based on ehp? if you have low ehp the overhealth/debuff strength is very small but if you have higher ehp it gets a lot stronger. so then you can build damage if you want but it’s less effective

[worn forge]

Agree that rit is the default

[violet pewter]

Not to mention we have tna which makes the boss keep still

Admittedly that one is a bit less interesting but it works

[opal badge]

even if every assassin hypothetically just built full damage all 3 archs still play very different from each other

[shut flicker]

honestly I did think ritualist was probably the default too lol I was just like well acolyte is the damage support archetype that shaman was kinda meant to be but ye it is the most basic

[violet pewter]

But this allows a sharpshooter synergy for example

[worn forge]

And thats what I like, each archetype is still completely different even if you build the same

[surreal ferry]

agreed like i get that trickster technically avoids harm's way with mirror image...? but it feels much more akin to a bruiser and not an assassin -- the teleporting / clone teleporting seems much, much more thematically fitting than intentionally taking damage to get stuff off cooldown

[worn forge]

My response is basically what sol said

[opal badge]

yea so i dont see the issue tbh

[drifting pelican]

Part of the reason that support doesn't always work so well in Wynncraft is because the fights and abilities have you sipping around too fast for support to keep up easily a lot of the time

[shut flicker]

well yeah this is kinda what I was getting at, I suppose deviate wasnt the best wording in hindsight, but yeah you are correct

[worn forge]

They fill their niches without requiring any specific build

[drifting pelican]

yeah I agree with you on this
thematically, sandbagging is odd

[opal badge]

they would all fit with what assassin as a whole is described as they just all do it differently

[worn forge]

Im still not happy with shade rn but its still a cool option

[surreal ferry]

like okay shadestepper is the usual "wait in the shadows... deal your damage when the opportunity strikes" and i feel like acrobat kinda fits that ninja / assassin theme of darting around the enemy peppering it with a thousand blows and then trickster has a lot of that with its clones and cool things like tricks... and then i think sandbagging kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. bamboozle self damage would be a cool idea like each time you teleport it exhausts energy or health type stuff and i'm rlly not opposed to that as an option to make ppl build bulk i just don't think the theme of assassin fits with something that's supposed to take a little damage here and there from an enemy -- feels more like something a warrior / berserker type would do, not an assassin

[worn forge]

The fact that trick requires vanish makes me agree with this even more

[crystal ivy]

Ok, but build diversity is only a true goal if we encourage certain types of items with some archetypes and discourage other types of items with other archetypes right?

Build diversity can never be real if there aren't core differences that push you towards different building decisions within the archetypes

Items are a bit part of how something plays too!

[shut flicker]

but the other thing with assassin and why I feel like having a bulky archetype works is while it is based around evasiveness a part of its fantasty is that it's low range and it has to get into a bad place in order to deal damage so being bulky enough to survive long enough to get out I think is also part of its fantasy and I think that plays into trickster's identity of an illusion type thing that weakens enemies and stuff like that, but it also still has the evasiveness and damage that embody assassin

[grizzled river]

honestly trick is kinda insanely broken right now

[shut flicker]

it's insanely broken because people are bursting bosses down to invuln in 2 seconds because theyre not building trickster how it was intended to be built because damage is so out of control

youre supposed to sacrifice damage for uptime, but because damage builds are so unreasonably strong uptime doesnt matter since you just oneshot shit

[crystal ivy]

As I said before, bamboozle dealing self damage was in the original rework design for trickster! Though I think the self damage would have to be pretty high to encourage any kind of bulk building

It would obviously also trigger sandbagging

[shut flicker]

I think this would be reasonable though if there was an option to heal it back, you could make drained do this since it's a slower heal but it would heal bulkier builds back up faster since they took less damage

[worn forge]

Ive said it before but i don't think the tree should include explicit bias towards any specific element(s), build diversity is fostered by the players.

The core differences in classes/archs that push players to build outside ETW is typically the difference between support, dps, and tank. Players building outside ETW is usually on archetypes in the support/tank category (or if their weapon is Fire/Air). Having one ability in the tree that encourages playing opposite to the main gameplay loop doesn't really foster an environment that let's players choose something different, it just kinda forces them

[crystal ivy]

I'm not against adding it back to bamboozle at all, it would obviously need discussion internally

[shut flicker]

I think it's absolutely worth exploring and I cant see it being worse than current sandbagging

[mellow lodge]

Okay so what about, the clones having more ability to tank damage and they gain increased damage reduction from defense so building defense doesn't pull away from the evasiveness but still benefits the subclass

[crystal ivy]

Build diversity is evidently not fostered by the players. That is apparent by the DPS meta that the entire community is aware of

[worn forge]

I think reworking tricks to give bonuses to all elemental damage as well as reducing cd at higher trick counts (albeit at a lower rate) would be the changes i would make

[shut flicker]

this could be pretty cool

[worn forge]

Air is the most synergistic with trick except for the fact that its neglected in the tree

[shut flicker]

yeah I've said this like 5 times today, people saying they want all archetypes to have build diversity are the people that want every archetype to run 9 damage items

[crystal ivy]

We don't want to encourage the opposite of the main gameplay loop. We think that being tanky should enable your gameplay loop as a trickster

[mellow lodge]

I think my idea above fits that bill kinda

[urban linden]

Dont really agree i think the tree can incentivize things without completely neglecting others

[crystal ivy]

Reducing cd with tricks used is a cool mechanic I liked the idea from wintel, but it only encourages building damage even more so we would need to (as I said before) come up with some other way to discourage that somewhat

[urban linden]

It just depends how its handled

[worn forge]

Again, im fine with trick nerfs as long as its to the damage and not qol. Its overtuned already, and Id rather have lower yet more consistent damage because sitting and twiddling my thumbs during downtime feels bad

And running into enemies to get abilities back up feels worse...

[worn forge]

Can you provide an example where you think it works well

[urban linden]

You dont need to unless the boss doesnt fight back

[crystal ivy]

The definition of qol here is skewed. It's not qol to build something that is an enabler of your gameplay loop. It is a core mechanic

[worn forge]

I play to not get hit at all times, vanish and bamb enable me to do so even more

[crystal ivy]

Nobody complains that we push you to build less mana sustain on arcanist and fallen through their impressive built in mana abilities

[urban linden]

You can play to get hit and not get hit

[crystal ivy]

Funny that one, isn't it :)

[worn forge]

How does this relate to elemental biases in the atree?

[urban linden]

Sandbagging works but like not as the sole cd reduction

[mellow lodge]

Oh also maybe clones take on effects like sandbagging so having tanky clones allows for more spell usages to allow more tanking clones and lures

[crystal ivy]

You're against the ability tree fundamentally encouraging and discouraging items to build

[urban linden]

Overcourse you dont want to play to get hit if your on etw

[crystal ivy]

Which is wider than your point but that is your stance

[urban linden]

Which is why they need to add something else

[worn forge]

No im against the atree incentivzing certain elements

[urban linden]

I said it could work didnt say it applies currently

[worn forge]

Incentives to build less mr is different than Incentives to build wd%

Because the mr is compensated for in the kit

[crystal ivy]

The elements have their affiliations with certain IDs too though

[urban linden]

It could work with trickster it just needs tinkering like i said sandbagging and another cd ability can coexist

[crystal ivy]

I'm just trying to establish that we've got to view things proportionally. The ability tree gives you a lot of power, to me it seems only fair that the holes that are left get patched up by the items you choose to use.

[urban linden]

Like for what fallen is i think it should incentivize etw

[worn forge]

Sorry I just dont agree that trick buffing all elements except air is a good thing

Especially with its synergy with air

[urban linden]

Ohhh your talking about the elemental buffs

[shut flicker]

I would just slap air on the damage reduction at this point

I do think it's better than not having it

[urban linden]

Do you mean like those debuffs that buff the elemental damages

[worn forge]

Yeah

[urban linden]

I thought you were talking about not incentivizing like def and agil for sandbagging

[urban linden]

Oh yeah i agree i think air damage should be there

[worn forge]

It's always more powerful to build off what the atree provides, you will be at a disadvantage (damage wise) if you build weathered or another air weapon

[opal badge]

my question now is how much bulk investment does the team want for trickster

[worn forge]

I think they should bundle them all into Ele% instead of seperate elements

[urban linden]

Yeah that would work

Mb i thought you were talking about it in a different sense

[worn forge]

What did you think i meant lol, just curious

[urban linden]

^

[worn forge]

I think sandbagging is a soft incentive to building def agi, which is fine

It functions without it if you're desperate

[zealous steeple]

it is just how badly trickster is without sandbagging

[shut flicker]

it's supposed to be lol, you're supposed to build some ehp on trickster, sandbagging is not the best way of enabling it, but it's like this for a reason

[zealous steeple]

literally turns from medium damage burst to good consistent dps

[zealous steeple]

yeah there should be another methods of reducing cd

[worn forge]

Id just rather see we get sb to proc after sacrificing clones instead of requiring you to lose one via an enemy attack

Sac 3 clones and you proc sandbagging idk

[zealous steeple]

i dont believe the entire archetype relies on 1 singular pink node just to be able to tanky and take hits again efficiently

[zealous steeple]

yeah sacrificing seems like a good centralised design

[shut flicker]

there should be and I think self damage from bamboozle would be better

[zealous steeple]

also buff soul siphon then

[shut flicker]

agreed

[urban linden]

I think reducing the cd depending on how many tricks you detonate would be better

[zealous steeple]

istg that just gives you 1 overhealth and a half 😭

[worn forge]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682

[urban linden]

Cause then its just free

If you could proc sandbagging with boozle

[zealous steeple]

clueless

[urban linden]

???

[zealous steeple]

intended bug

[worn forge]

Keep sandbagging if you wanna facetank for cd reduction, and add trick threshold and clone sac (each would be less effective than sb) so you can choose either

[zealous steeple]

think of it like the shatter blood totem bug

[worn forge]

Maybe even make sb and trick/sac mutually exclusive idk

[urban linden]

Ig they just need to tinker with it

[worn forge]

"bug"

[grizzled river]

you don't need to facetank for sandbagging

[shut flicker]

I think my full idea for bamboozle self damage cdr is that Bamboozle should do a % of your max health in damage that's mitigated by defense, probably not agility or either give defense increased effectiveness (which is preferred) or give agi less effectiveness and have soul siphon heal you based on your max health similar to the overhealth it gives now so that bulkier builds will heal up to full faster and more consistently (since they didnt take as much proportional self damage from bamboozle) and have builds that lack ehp struggle more in terms of health regen

[zealous steeple]

you can interpret both as “bugs”

[grizzled river]

no

[urban linden]

But like keeping sandbagging as the only way is kinda stupid

[shut flicker]

I think it would make it way more interactive than sandbagging and decentivize dps builds which it should do

[worn forge]

Yeah im not really cool with assassin doing damage to itself

[urban linden]

I perhaps think i get it

[zealous steeple]

ah good

[shut flicker]

why?

that seems like a super on brand trickster thing

[urban linden]

Everything makes sense now

[worn forge]

I still dont even know what "on brand" is for trick

We want it to use vanish but also purposely get hit

We want an assassin to build def

We want debuffs except for air

The clones are really cool but everything else is meh

[shut flicker]

but this would remove it needing to get hit from outside soruces, this way you can control it, but still maintain the risk of current sandbagging only in a more consistent way that decentivizes building full damage like people do on the other 4 classes

[zealous steeple]

go go gadget random bullshit

[worn forge]

And why the hell does it give overhealth

[shut flicker]

this is just a stupid complaint im sorry and the debuff for air I reckon will be a thing when they figure out the AP issue, but no class should ignore an element lol that's just bad game design and the only reason people are mad about this is because theyve been spoiled by absurd damage numbers for way too long

[zealous steeple]

overhealth is clearly included in the “random bullshit” package

also because of that old trickster node at the bottom that no one uses 😭

[worn forge]

Im mad because its thematically all over the place and sb doesnt match the gameplay. I've stated im fine with damage nerfs many times

[shut flicker]

well yeah it's clear sandbagging is going, everyone agrees there, but the reason why sandbagging hasnt gone yet is because they want trickster to have this damage because they want it to have to build tankier and once they find an alternate way to do that sandbagging can go or be changed at least, but then the issue arises that if we do find another solution everyone's gonna say "BLEH I WANNA BUILD 9 DAMAGE ITEMS WHY CANT ALL MY BUILDS LOOK THE SAME" and we're gonna go in another circle

[worn forge]

Where was it communicated that sb is going

[shut flicker]

that's the entire point everyone's agreed on in this thread, Term said they want to remove sandbagging, it's just an issue of retaining trickster's bulkier build identity

[worn forge]

Link?

[zealous steeple]

aint even bulk when all my clones die to that random ass mob that has arrow storm ability

[shut flicker]

.

.

.

.

[shut flicker]

.

this should be enough I reckon

one of those was a ping I forgot to disable mb

[grizzled river]

.

[shut flicker]

.

[worn forge]

None of there messages confirm anything

But only time will tell

[shut flicker]

bro in all of them he says he wants to change sandbagging

[worn forge]

I'll believe it when I see it

[shut flicker]

he gave the reason as to why sandbagging's a thing, if you have a suggestion that makes it so sandbagging doesnt need to exist in its current state, but still allows trickster to be enabled by building bulkier I'm sure he'd be thrilled to hear it

[grizzled river]

he can try to change it but it's good as it is lol

[shut flicker]

well I dont think so because even bulkier builds have inconsistent experiences depending on whether the enemy uses heavy or flurry attacks

[worn forge]

Let's just make your damage scale directly off how many points you have in def/agi 💡

[grizzled river]

leave trickster alone and go back to playing fallen or something more your speed

[shut flicker]

and I think a hard ehp check isnt great, but it's the only thing stopping people from going 5hp cata

[grizzled river]

oh yeah all the good builds have loads of defense and agility and aren't all earth thunder nervana

like this is a fire architype you're kinda suggested to build for hp

[shut flicker]

shade and acro both allow and incentivize glass builds, I think trickster's allowed to be the opposite, it's a really cool archetype and it's extremely fun to play, but people see the defense stat and get turned off which is so disgustingly stupid to me

[grizzled river]

just play the rework it's fine stop complaining

I know it ruined a lot of brainless builds but it's for the best

[shut flicker]

im having a blast with the rework lol I'm running nulli trickster

[remote finch]

A tank that can’t self-heal can’t even function as a sandbag.
And when a Trickster tries to tank, using a pot turns them from a sandbag into glass.

[shut flicker]

only issue is clones appearing when entering vanish which solves one minor issue and creates 3 other ones

[grizzled river]

you build hpr

[remote finch]

#1404677597555589192 message

[grizzled river]

everything disappears when using pots

[shut flicker]

hey I'm all for trickster having a self heal like i said, make bamboozle deal self damage so sandbagging can just proc when you take self damage so you control it entirely and have soul siphon heal you instead of granting overhealth, would heavily incentivize bulkier builds, but not force them

[grizzled river]

why are you giving it self heal, just don't get hit

it has overhealth already

[shut flicker]

also tbf trickster isnt meant to be a tank, it's meant to be bulkier, but not like guardian or abso or anything, it's meant to be more like a bruiser type thing

[grizzled river]

it's supposed to be a tank

it's supportive, gains damage from being hit and has high defense

[sturdy crane]

I'd say it's a mix

[cerulean skiff]

I think that the problem is that while sandbagging is supposed to be an ability that encourages people to build slightly bulkier it also just doesn't really synergize as well with anything else anymore

[grizzled river]

it's really high compared to what it used to be

[opal badge]

"just dont get hit"
"its supposed to be a tank you gain damage from being hit"

choose 1

[cerulean skiff]

The thing is, Trickster could have had more things on the tree that actually encourage building that way and sandbagging would in turn be a lot more useful

[sturdy crane]

It has the ability to be a tank, but can still path out to other options ( dps / support )

[cerulean skiff]

the way that Trickster ended up manifesting didn't have any room for that, which is why I think sandbagging probably doesn't fit anymore

although i don't know if the solution really has that sort of "take damage" integration either, I think it still carries the same issues

[grizzled river]

you want to avoid the big damage and use the small damage to reduce cooldowns

not every hit in the game does a flat amount of damage

[cerulean skiff]

if we wanted Trickster to build tanky we just should've designed it with that more in mind

[grizzled river]

I mean it's definitely good if you build tanky, with the massive burst potential of losing your clones then using echo without using bamboozle

[drifting reef]

100%. it's really struggling for identity rn, as it's trying to stretch itself between support (debuffs, noxious), damage (trick bonuses, clone sacrifice, noxious) and wanting to tank (Sandbagging being almost necessary for its gameplay loop).

given the tree is already tight it's honestly a miracle all of this kinda works together, and is incredibly strong at that

[cerulean skiff]

which is why I think trickster needing to take damage in the current iteration is cope

[remote finch]

If you want to avoid big damage and only take small hits, then you’re better off playing DPS rather than tank.

[cerulean skiff]

please, go on. this is extremely vindicating for me

[drifting reef]

:,)

[grizzled river]

you think tanks just sponge up all the damage?

[opal badge]

not everything in the game will provide consistent small hits damage and hit rate drastically varies throughout the game

[shut flicker]

yes, which is why trickster isnt a tank, it's somewhere between tank and dps

being bulkier does not mean youre a tank

[remote finch]

If you want to take big damage but avoid small damage, then I think you can still fulfill the tank role.

[cerulean skiff]

I think trickster is a dps with weak mantles except that the mantles give damage bonus

[drifting reef]

clones giving 30% strength is fucking unreal LOL

[grizzled river]

not even palidins take all the damage, if you just sit still in boss fights you die

[drifting reef]

https://medal.tv/games/minecraft/clips/kSSLeaWH9jFH10UvY?invite=cr-MSxJelIsMjcxNzU1MjA4&v=66 like just look at phase 2 of the fight i literally do 5 mil in like 4 seconds (albeit aco buffed but still this is insane)

boss just insta pops

[opal badge]

it is pretty messy yea

it tries to do several different things but since theres not enough room to fit all of these things parts of its design just seem weird

wants to tank but no way to grab aggro (instead has ways to drop it) and no self healing
has support in noxious and debuffs but the debuff effects are pretty meh

[drifting reef]

i feel like any 1 of its support, damage, or tanking have to go

[grizzled river]

you give a man gold and they complain it isn't shiny enough as if they couldn't polish it themselves

[drifting reef]

that way it can alleviate its otherwise extremely AP tight tree

and focus more on 2 aspects of a class's strength rather than stretching itself thin for all 3

[grizzled river]

the damage will go

[drifting reef]

"will"?

[opal badge]

yea ur right everything in this game is actually perfect and nobody is ever allowed to have any other opinion or give feedback on any aspect

[warm otter]

kinda went offline on this post can some1 sum up like last 3h of convo there

[shut flicker]

p much the same as last night

we are talking about its identity tho now which is fun

I think if we wanna free up some ap we can lose contaminated

[drifting pelican]

I just use a fire damage build and reap the side effect of hpr from titano and fire sanc to heal a little over time

[shut flicker]

I think the elemental damages thing is a little wack honestly and if we wanna free up AP I think we just have a debuff for damage (conf) a debuff for tanking (damage reduc) and a debuff for support (soul siphon) and give all of those just 10% damage increase since if air's 30% was a thing that'd effectively be what this is. I think contaminated and confusion are interesting, but contaminated is pretty useless end game and trickster's aoe is not an issue and confusion is just as inconsistent as sandbagging

[grizzled river]

it will go down

next patch maybe

[drifting reef]

if you say so!

[opal badge]

just lowering numbers wont change the fact ap is tight and the tree still stretches between 3 different things

[grizzled river]

that's most trees though

[shut flicker]

well I just freed up 2 I think so that's something

[opal badge]

what other archetypes are juggling damage support and tank and name at least 8 since you said most trees

[grizzled river]

self damage bonus might be a bit too much so it'll likely be turned down, same with clone echo damage

[opal badge]

number of debuffs could probably be lowered yea

[remote finch]

shaman?

[opal badge]

how do summoner and ritu tank/benefit from tanking

[remote finch]

overhealth tank

[grizzled river]

palidin, riftwalker, battlemonk, sharpshooter and summoner are all trees that struggle to cross over

[worn forge]

nirvana ooh na na

[remote finch]

Maybe I was a little mistaken

[worn forge]

Not my fault IMs made a broken item

[shut flicker]

yeah I mean drained enkindled and weakness are perfectly fine, contam and confusion are just whatever I think

[main mural]

It's fine Acolyte is the only real archetype on shaman anyways

[shut flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/piano-piano-on-fire-man-playing-piano-fire-gif-18619744

[opal badge]

paladin is mostly focused on support and tanking rift yea that tree is a mess but is it really because its juggling between different identities or because it just has a bunch of bloat and no clear identity bmonk also doesnt really have a clear identity sharp tree yea thats a mess its juggling both spell and melee right now and for summoner i dont really see whats the issue its clear what its supposed to do

[worn forge]

Aco also struggles to cross over if you want to keep uproot

[paper grotto]

yea

[paper grotto]

sure!, just some personal ideas but i'd like to see a sandbagging proc off a clone getting hit so you still get reward for losing a bamboozle chance (doesn't HAVE to be a mirror clone)(also rewards you for yknow... "tricking" the enemy?), or some other way to reduce cooldowns like wintel suggests

[shut flicker]

this doesnt incentivize building bulkier though and that's a big thing here

[urban linden]

🤨

[devout current]

maybe the proposed self damage could be a bit high and able to be countered by defense so it's somewhat dangerous on etw?

[shut flicker]

ya

[cerulean skiff]

By itself it doesn’t actually help the archetype, it makes it sooo much worse, especially during leveling. It needs more overall integration with the rest of the kit and that can’t really be done with just bandaids

[opal badge]

yea honestly sounds really bad for progression since boozle is the first real ability u get and u dont get sandbagging til much later

[mellow lodge]

This is a good idea i think

Overhealth can make up for the self damage so it fits that in as well

[worn forge]

Please dont make trick do self damage i cannot stress this enough

[devout current]

that’s true

maybe if there was a self heal early in the tree it could work? but i don’t know how that would work

[shut flicker]

why not

[naive hound]

I don't see why it can't have an inherent downside for having cd reduction

[grave latch]

Choking on your own noxious gas

[naive scaffold]

Forcing defense into a class ain’t a great idea cause unless you want players to run inferno for dmg most will run oblivion or weathered which both don’t take a lot of defense to be able to build into sustain which on assassin seems to be a problem

[limber valve]

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/builder/#CK0826Ts-zIx024XQUvCGXaRKGX5TGgPX3x2W-vUIP+uJA0 balanced trickster ehp build

the intended way to build trickster

[worn forge]

grimtrap mentioned

[shut flicker]

its not forcing inferno level defense its just trying to decentivize full glass which I think is perfectly fine

[crystal ivy]

The duality of man

[crystal ivy]

.

[worn forge]

you can proc sb as much as you want without building any def agi, but its gonna cost you more

i dont like it but it doesnt neccesarily force you to build any which way

so if you value even more burst damage and want to play glass its still possible

[shut flicker]

but you wanna lose your clones so you get perma uptime for no tradeoff and it makes it so there no difference between building damage or building a bit more ehp

[worn forge]

The tradeoff is you lost a clone and cant use it to bamb

[crystal ivy]

I think trickster's identity is completely fine as a team support/debuffer.

It should lean into more tankiness to facilitate that naturally either through the fact that sandbagging requires getting hit or other mechanics that could get introduced.

Maybe through the self damage idea (though not added to base bamboozle) it could gain more incentives (it could be dodged and mitigated with Def for example). There could be other ideas out there too

We also play a game where everything HAS to be a DPS because it's predominantly a single player game

[shut flicker]

well youd use bamb to kill the clone

[worn forge]

then you dont proc sb

[crystal ivy]

So do you see how changing it to your and others suggestion would actually limit build diversity because there is no encouragement to build Def/agi anymore

[shut flicker]

ohhh i get what youre saying

[worn forge]

like i said its a soft encouragment, you dont have to but plenty will

people love slapping crabs on builds

[crystal ivy]

Yeah, so if it's gone there's no encouragement right?

[shut flicker]

tbh with the self damage thing I think you could move sandbagging further down the tree and move soul siphon up (and make it a heal or partial heal partial overhealth if a heal is too strong) so you get it first and then sandbagging would just be "taking self damage reduces cd by x%"

[crystal ivy]

I think it would be better to not give soul siphons so easily it could become quite broken which is why we put it as the last debuff

[shut flicker]

ah fair

[crystal ivy]

But bamboozle could easily get that functionality in an upgrade to it somewhere

[worn forge]

I mean, sure? I dont really mind soft encouragment (like building health and heff% on aco)

you dont have to, but it helps

[crystal ivy]

Well yeah it's a good thing about the ability tree that we encourage you towards certain building decisions

[shut flicker]

i dont think its supposed to be soft encouragement though like i think it should be somewhat heavily incentivized

[crystal ivy]

And we want to encourage ehp on trickster to facilitate it's debuffer playstyle. How do we do that when removing sandbagging! That's the whoooole question

[worn forge]

yeah and the thing about this ability is it feels counterintuitive to the kit instead of synergestic like aco and heff%

just the way the ability is used

[crystal ivy]

We all agree, and different ability team members have said it quite a few times

So we are trying to figure out:

How do we incentivise building more bulkiness on trickster to facilitate it's debuffer playstyle instead of sandbagging?

[paper grotto]

this is one of the alternate possibilities i'd like yea

[opal sphinx]

i do not see the logic behind making trickster a defense/ehp focused archetype, when i think of an assassin using clones i don't imagine myself as being tanky and getting purposefully hit in order to be able to make more clones. I imagine myself as an otherwise frail character that becomes deceptively tanky through misdirection (not the debuff) by making the mobs focus on my clones instead of on myself which would give me time to apply debuffs and whatnot.

hell i feel like it would make more sense thematically for trickster to be focused on agility over defence

[graceful wraith]

i do not see ur opinion as valid.

[opal sphinx]

i do not see you as valid 🥱

[graceful wraith]

goat

[crystal ivy]

Its obviously fair to have your own opinions on trickster thematically, it makes sense to us as the fire mastery archetype on the only other 100 base res class

also both acrobat and shadestepper definitely have no place being a tank with their gimmicks

so trickster is a natural choice for a more tanky archetype. Agility does also play into bulkiness yeah its part of what i've been saying

[paper grotto]

understandable🙂‍↕️

[graceful wraith]

I feel like you can do tanking without taking hits tho.

Like I love the ideas of shadow clones and mirage clones but they are kinda useless if they don’t tank any hits

I really thought those clones would like sacrifice hp like how substitute kinda works in pokemon

Like he said throw clones out to distract and tank hits

But obviously the theme you guys went for is also valid.

Like mirage clones are legitmently useless unless u are using echo

Like imagine if trickster was a tank archetype about distracting and misdirecting and applying debbuffs rn trickster is only doing debuffs and that’s it

It is not achieving the distraction and misdirection part well

And is it really necessary for trickster to take vanish for clones I’m not even going to lie I do not see the point of vanish for trickster if the design archetype is for it to take hits

Vanish kinda of ruins the whole point of the theme of what you guys are going for it seems like.

[graceful wraith]

I would also like to mention half of these debuffs are pointless as the dmg mhltiplier don’t apply to ur team and half of the debuffs are not even effective.

Like arguably the best from ranking best to worst is like vulnerability weaken slow blind and everything else is kinda pointless

The only thing trickster achieved in the debuff department that is useful for team play is like the weaken

And even that is like super mid

[opal sphinx]

tbf the game isnt complex enough for there to be that many interesting debuffs

[graceful wraith]

I really like the elemental dmg boost

But it’s just so sad to see it’s limited to the trickster it self only

And I also think it’s such a waste for shadow and mirage clones for them to do absolute nothing other than more dps (this is more for mirage clones and not for shadow clones cuz one could argue it’s nice for movement but this is more of the time u are using it to proc echo and duplicate spell)

I thought the whole point of trickster rework is to shift towards less reliant on echo for dps

But still trickster still requires use of echo to play.

[cerulean skiff]

Well the shift was away from echo’s previous requirement to essentially not get hit at all to sustain damage versus new echo which just works through normal gameplay, the mechanism is different

One of my biggest problems is just that mockery’s existence being a prerequisite for most of trickster’s debuffs limits the amount of space we have at the tail end of the tree and also just pushes debuffs there, I’d much prefer we just get rid of it entirely so we can spread out the effects throughout tree progression and also make them more accessible during minion combat as currently you deal too much damage to things before you can even apply debuffs

We’d have a lot more space to actually explore tanky trickster abilities without wasting so much space on setting up the base kit

[crystal ivy]

Yep I said this before and totally agree! Its just about figuring out what the best way to get to that vision is

taking damage to facilitate your gameplay loop is one wayto encourage building more defensively but there are definitely other ways

your idea about substitute like pokemon is a really good one

[crystal ivy]

Mirage clones do distract enemies by drawing their aggro!

[crystal ivy]

Your team can proc most of the debuffs that go onto mobs or they can directly benefit from them:
Weaken: self explanatory, mobs deal less damage to you and your team
Contaminated: your team can activate the explosion by killing the mob
Confusion: Your team tanking a hit can activate the effect too
Soul Siphon: Both you and Your team can attack the mob to gain overhealth
Deflagrate: Your team can increment the percentage with their hits, activating the effect faster
Noxious: Both you and your team get a damage bonus based on debuffs that are present on enemies. This counts for all of the trick debuffs that you apply (making every single one useful to your team) AND also ANY OTHER debuff in the game (meaning that other clasess that apply effects like slowness or vulnerability or whatever else contribute to this too)

[opal sphinx]

debuff aplication should be tied to interactions with the various clones instead of all of them being just applied by a big generic nuke

[cerulean skiff]

I think this is much more of a communication problem, the only debuff here that players can visibly see affect them is soul siphon

Even so the effects by themselves are relatively weak

[cerulean skiff]

There are other good ways to do this that don’t interact with clones as well

[graceful wraith]

It might take some fine tuning but yes they sound good but in practice it’s really mid.

[cerulean skiff]

Originally I had an idea that smoke would scatter caltrops on the floor that act as small DoT fields, and spin attacking them would carry the pile into your spin attack to empower it (and deal self damage) and this could very easily have been rebranded into toxic sludge and added both self damage integration and debuff integration (might be a long description tho)

[opal sphinx]

making it so that each debuff counts towards noxius doesn't magically prevent them from being completely useless. Trying to argue that misdirection does anything other than the 1.3x thunder and counting towards noxious is genuinely just straight up lying

[sharp jolt]

i mean yeah the effects are mostly weak on their own, they knew this and this is why they gave them element damage bonuses tbh

[graceful wraith]

I’m trying to say it’s kinda point less to have some of these debuffs tho

[opal sphinx]

problem being that the element bonuses aren't teamwide so the "debuff class" ends up providing almost no debuff value for the team

[graceful wraith]

Like weaken confusion and soul siphons synergy isn’t really there

[wheat horizon]

i always saw trickster as a self-supporting support that just so happens to help its teammates with buffs they are otherwise doing for themselves, so shadow clone tankyness nerf would be ok if the self-supporting stuff stays, esp if replaced with a 'enemy weakness' debuff instead

[opal sphinx]

misdirection probably the worst node on assassin tree ngl

[crystal ivy]

I simply relayed their effects 🤷

obviously if you remove 60+% of a debuffs effect and description it becomes totally useless lol

[opal sphinx]

you responded to someone saying that they are pointless by... stating what they do...

[crystal ivy]

the person said that they dont interact with your team at all so i explained how they did

[sharp jolt]

the acrobat in question

[graceful wraith]

It takes a person one second to realize that half of these are useless in 90% of the content

[crystal ivy]

originally I wanted confusion to also block the enemy attack but it would have been too strong lmao

[opal sphinx]

yeah man im sure there is a whole lot of team interaction with confusion

[crystal ivy]

maybe with the cooldown not so much though 🤔

[graceful wraith]

Contaminated is so useful!

[sharp jolt]

well, things like mobs exploding on death is useless, frankly I’m surprised CT went with it since they know how problematic those mechanics are

like why do that to begin with? it’s obvious people won’t like it and its not going to be useful

[opal sphinx]

bro its 400%!!!!

[graceful wraith]

Soul siphons is so useful!! When blood sorrow exist !!!

[cerulean skiff]

Contaminated would be a much better effect if wasn’t so hard to apply

[sharp jolt]

shepherd took years to fix and it wasn’t even directly “fixed”, so why add a similar mechanic..

[graceful wraith]

When trumpet exist

[sharp jolt]

this is a bad comparison, I do agree it’s bad but it’s obviously not meant to be a competitor

[crystal ivy]

Death triggers don't have to not exist just because they're not useful in some endgame bosses

[graceful wraith]

How many times have u used contaminated in rooms

[crystal ivy]

also we shouldn't just ignore noxious, it fundamentally makes applying these debuffs valuable

[graceful wraith]

And in other content

[opal sphinx]

death triggers don't make sense when its 400% dmg and it requires nuking a mob with high trickcount (aka they are either dead already or a boss)

[cerulean skiff]

The easiest thing to do would literally be to remove its dependency on mockery (although I’d say the same to all the other debuffs as well)

[sharp jolt]

they are not useful in most of the end game content.. this is evident with things like shepherd and diffusion

the nice thing about shepherd previously is that you didn’t have to take it, but with the trickster one you just have to..

[crystal ivy]

This is also naive in as much as raids are not the only existing part of the game, who says you have an acolyte or paladin with you

[graceful wraith]

Bro even weaken and confusion is useless because u don’t get hit 90% of the time.

[crystal ivy]

It is mainly raids where death triggers dont work that well

[drifting reef]

I think it would be nice if the effects of the debuffs were stronger to encourage the team play to get the best effects out of them. Currently the Trick effects are just kinda secondary to the unreal damage bonus they give. Soul Siphon is the only trick debuff i'd consider decent at the moment, the rest are just too underwhelming. Distraction and Noxious are good, but the rest have quite a few issues:

• Contaminated's AoE is really small. 5 blocks is very hard to work with given that the only time it activates is when the mob dies. The damage is also fairly underwhelming for how hard it is to use.
• Confusion activates too infrequently to be meaningful, it has a super long cooldown and is also entirely dependent on how the mob attacks. It's also really hard to tell when this activates so it just feels like an entirely passive DoT effect.
• Soul Siphon is nice due to the fact that you can actually see it activating and know you're benefitting off of it. I personall think it deserves a slight number increase but aside from that it's fine.
• Deflagrate's cooldown is too long for this ability to feel impactful. The damage is very good but you hardly see it activate, and in team content it's extremely hard to benefit off of the fire damage it grants because the debuff pops its full effect EXTREMELY quickly. Even if you're alone, trickster hits quickly enough to where Deflagrate pops super super fast.

[sharp jolt]

🤔 wat

[crystal ivy]

outside of raids there are usually always a bunch of fodder mobs for these abilities to thrive greatly!

[graceful wraith]

Every attack is telegraphed

Everyone just dodges them

[graceful wraith]

Yes I will run trickster in my lr

[sharp jolt]

i think it’s always important to acknowledge abilities with raids in mind

you did do this, because the ability also gives extra element damage, but then you are just using it for the damage which is pretty lame

[crystal ivy]

it is definitely important but its just as important to not only consider high level endgame raids :)

[opal sphinx]

outside of lootruns (aint no one doing that on trickster) all those mobs will probably die before you can get the trick nuke to activate

[graceful wraith]

Foreshadowing fruma

[crystal ivy]

I think that confusion and toxic sludge can be swapped because the death trigger is infinitely more useful with a lower trick requirement and in progression content (most of the game btw)

[cerulean skiff]

the problem is that you kill the mobs you actually want to hit with sludge before you can apply it

during dev I legit wanted to put the death explosion at like 400%

[drifting reef]

^^^

Your team too!

[crystal ivy]

Yeah I agree with all of these points tbh. We have said before that coming up with debuffs isn't exactly easy because we wanted them to be unique to trickster so that noxious could have synergy with other classes applying their own debuffs. The game doesn't really have enough deep mechanics to have that many debuffs though

[cerulean skiff]

great point

[graceful wraith]

Remove vanish req for mirror image anyways

[crystal ivy]

There are planned vfx for the debuffs so that would help make them feel less meh too

[graceful wraith]

That is the first thing y’all gotta do

[drifting reef]

oh cool!

[cerulean skiff]

oh wait I did put sludge at 400%

[crystal ivy]

Yeah which is why I think swapping it with confusion would be better as its earlier in the tree

[cerulean skiff]

no I don't think this solves the issue

[graceful wraith]

SO stupid why that is a requirement if the theme of trickster is what y’all say it is

[crystal ivy]

trick requirements can also be lowered thats not really impossible

[cerulean skiff]

like genuinely

I think what we need to do is detach it from mockery

[opal sphinx]

debuffs just shouldn't be tied to mockery

[graceful wraith]

How many times have players use the trick nukes outside of boss

[cerulean skiff]

if not most of the debuffs sludge at least we should detach specifically

[graceful wraith]

Unless I’m just a shitty trickster player

[crystal ivy]

I guarantee it would be too complicated without a central mechanic

and we are like way past that im not gonna lie

[sharp jolt]

kinda unrelated getting used to have consistent transparency (i think what ur doing rn is gr8) is gonna be a hit in the face when they just release bolt rework by this so called mysterious ct 😭

[devout current]

wait what

[graceful wraith]

I mean as long as what’s being said is being disgussed like what this ct and terminated is doing it’s great

[sharp jolt]

i did notice i only had to do this once, it’s kinda also because the damage from detonating tricks does just about no damage lol

[cerulean skiff]

I really don't think it would've been that hard, we could have just slapped them onto existing spells to some extent

[graceful wraith]

Discussions like this only improve the game ( I hope)

[devout current]

yeah i think it would be fine if it was like spin or smoke that applied it, that honestly sounds less complicated than malicious mockery imo

[opal sphinx]

have each type of clone apply a debuff when they trigger last laugh, you are already doing it without a central mechanic with deflagrate

[sharp jolt]

this is what im saying, it does not seem to be like that with bolt because it is supposedly worked by an unknown secret member (lol) and they also mentioned that bolt rework is “soonish”

[cerulean skiff]

just fyi I don't think that you need to go and change things immediately, I'm not asking that

[crystal ivy]

I dont believe its the silver bullet that you think it is 🤷. Its just my opinion but I think it would create a more complicated system of applying debuffs. The debuffs themselves are not really what we were going for with the rework. We were going for the sheer amount of debuffs causing you to cripple enemies

[urban linden]

^

[crystal ivy]

the individuality of the debuffs is meant to be a lot of flavour and some nice effects

[urban linden]

The effects are like an afterthought rn icl

[cerulean skiff]

I mean it's not just me that thinks this though

[sharp jolt]

tbh i have heard a lot of shit about term but i wasn’t around when all of the stuff i heard was going on, i think the transparency is rlly good rn and it’s just gonna be a hit in the face when it’s not gonna be like that with bolt (for comparison, linny made her trick rework feedback thread almost a year ago at this point)

[graceful wraith]

I get that but as I said it’s really weak outside the elemental dmg boost and noxious gas which makes it still played like what it was before the rework hence the dependent of echo is still there.

[opal sphinx]

how would applying them through last laugh be any more complicated than the current effect

[cerulean skiff]

I think that the trick rework thread was posted too early

so much has changed since the initial concept

[sharp jolt]

it still helped engaging with players and gathering feedback

[graceful wraith]

I like the debuffs and the way u activate them but with this system some of these debuffs don’t fit

Or are just overly weak if u don’t consider the dmg boost and noxious

[sharp jolt]

yep, they knew this and that’s why they added ele dmg bonus

[cerulean skiff]

and even after spending what I would consider the most man hours working on trix within the development process I would still not claim responsibility over this rework, which I think is a problem

[sharp jolt]

is it tho

[graceful wraith]

Trickster the archetype that tricks you thinking it’s good.

Thats the only tricking the archetype is doing.

[sharp jolt]

icl the aspect for giving extra tricks is kinda a joke

just because they don’t really do much past a certain point anyways

[opal sphinx]

too many people working on a project meant to have a specific identity can muddy the waters, as each person will have a different vision for how the identity should be implemented (or even a different interpretation), which can lead to a finished product that lacks in cohesion and doesn't mesh well with itself

[devout current]

yea it would be nice to know what the intended identity is cause it seems like everybody has a different opinion

[graceful wraith]

remove vanish as req for mirror image make mirage clones tank a few hits (this procs sandbag) while spawning mirage clones take hp away from u make some of these debuffs not proc from the tricks nuke buff make some of these debuffs have higher numbers and percentages nerf noxious and echo damage. Nerf elemental damages buffs but make them team wide.

This is like my opinion currently tho

[cerulean skiff]

I'm ngl the elem bonuses were slapped on and they probably shouldn't be kept in the same way

[graceful wraith]

I like the idea of elemental dmg but really nerf it to like 5-10% but make it team wide

[cerulean skiff]

if anything maybe it would be better to just have an overall elem % bonus debuff but I realize that's literally just a flat damage bonus

[sharp jolt]

i suppose this is valid, tho i do think the overall structure has potential, there are just a few notable problems with the tree right now

[opal sphinx]

ong make trickster delete elemental resitances when it does the trick nuke

-5 res per trick

i am a genius

[sharp jolt]

they won’t do that, term said it’s bad for balance

[graceful wraith]

That does nothing.

[opal sphinx]

it makes bolt playable

[graceful wraith]

Elemental resistances are so fake….

[cerulean skiff]

thank you for saying this, this is a very important part of game design

[graceful wraith]

I though trickster would have more micro game play in controlling ur clones

[cerulean skiff]

ok now that in particular I think would be a bit too much, not the idea of debuffs being spread out across the kit instead of concentrated in a single node

if you've played mineplex champions the assassin class used to have an ability like that

[graceful wraith]

Yea illusion!

[cerulean skiff]

yeah, but I think that wynn is too fast and more PvE based to really make that sort of thing work at that scale

[graceful wraith]

But I mean mirage clones kinda of achieve that already but it just not that effective

[cerulean skiff]

mirage was my brainchild and I had a different idea of how it would work

I wanted it to mainly happen out of vanish though

[graceful wraith]

But really I still want to know why is vanish still a requirement for mirror image of the theme of assassin is about tanking hits.

[devout current]

maybe instead of directly tanking hits it could be more like the clones take hits for you idk

[cerulean skiff]

that was a big part of the initial discussion, I'll admit that I did want to keep vanish (and we needed a flag to actually trigger clones and we didn't want to make it a shift-cast) but at this point I could kinda see it working without vanish

[graceful wraith]

Is it not possible to do it on dash

[cerulean skiff]

I think the worst part about vanish is that its position on the tree makes you feel like you're wasting an extra 2 AP with trickster specifically

vanish does have some benefits over just pure dash IMO

it's much more telegraped when you actually get your clones when you reset the gameplay loop

[devout current]

i feel like assassin as a whole has a “philosophy” of sorts of avoiding damage in some way, shade avoids it with vanish, acro avoids it with flight, and even old trick avoided it with clones, so it always struck me as a little weird that new trickster wants to tank hits directly. but i don’t know if that was ever intentional

[opal sphinx]

yeah thats also what i said before

[cerulean skiff]

if mirage was on vanish it would've made more sense

you go into vanish, draw in enemies with the mirage you leave behind and once it pops you can strike with a fresh set of clones

[shut flicker]

i woulda had that and the current thing

[devout current]

yeah i think this would be a lot better than the current iteration which is kinda hard to consistently proc against moving targets and hard to position correctly at least in my experience, if it was vanish it would be more intuitive imo

[graceful wraith]

Oh no this goes against the theme of trickster of being able to take hits.

We must proc sandbagging by getting hit!

[opal sphinx]

just build statue

[cerulean skiff]

again I think that we could've had much better self-damage integration

[devout current]

i don’t mind trickster wanting to build ehp i just don’t think it should be through tanking hits directly

[cerulean skiff]

we just did not have the space for it with all the competition for identity

[graceful wraith]

Yea atp ima play tank trickster in wars

Soul siphons statue strategy

[opal sphinx]

gone first tower attack god bless

[cerulean skiff]

I talked about one of the ideas I had here for self-damage integration + debuffs

[opal sphinx]

does trickster even need self damage?

[cerulean skiff]

I think that having a 2-part setup be required to activate these types of conditions creates more interesting gameplay scenarios over just having self damage be built into abilities that you normally want to be casting (and also makes it harder to accidentally deal damage to yourself)

[zealous steeple]

tricks dont even work in wars

[cerulean skiff]

I think it could be cool to work with and helps satisfy the fire elemental association depending on how we built it

[graceful wraith]

Gg

[opal sphinx]

oh yeah pack it up

[graceful wraith]

Cannot play tank assassin

In wars that’s it

[cerulean skiff]

like we definitely could've gone for a sort of misdirection focused E/F/A association where you have good survivability even at lower health and thus can benefit from rage and whatnot

[grizzled river]

everyone does?? you get so much from hoodwinked

[graceful wraith]

Maybe i play too high damage

But I kill everything before I can proc it

[grizzled river]

maybe you aren't using it right

[graceful wraith]

Yea maybe

But my build kills everything besides bosses and minibosses

[grizzled river]

everyones builds kills everything? is it not normal for you to oneshot fodder

[graceful wraith]

That is the most effective way to play trickster as it is

[grizzled river]

are you finally oneshotting fodder because trick is overtuned 😭

[graceful wraith]

Yea which is stupid.

[grizzled river]

wdym

have you been struggling against fodder before

[graceful wraith]

Dafuq is fodder

I’m saying I killed everything before my tricks went over 25 even with hoodwink the mob is dead

By the time I use tricks nuke

[grizzled river]

what?

[graceful wraith]

Yes

[grizzled river]

yeah a single spell should kill fodder

you use tricks on minibosses

[graceful wraith]

They are 25% hp

When I have stacked my tricks

By the time my next cycle comes up it’s dead.

So what is the point of tricks.

And debuffs

[grizzled river]

to kill things you don't oneshot like on every class 😭

[graceful wraith]

So it is just useless?

Cuz everyone else one shots everything

[grizzled river]

what velocity were you thrown at omg

[graceful wraith]

Negative 40

[grizzled river]

you can't have negitive velocity 😭

[graceful wraith]

🧐🧐🧐🧐

AFAIK velocity is a vector

Not a scalar

[grizzled river]

yeah its a datapoint that is founded in positives

[graceful wraith]

U smoking some things

[grizzled river]

😭

a negative velocity would result in a negative timestate on most graphs and I am quite certan time travel does not exist

[prime jackal]

You can have negative acceleration though!

Aka deceleration

[grizzled river]

yeah ofc

[trim plover]

Sooooo we failed PHYS 100?

[crystal ivy]

I dont think its worth pre-empting something like that without much reason to

[sharp jolt]

what exactly are you referring to? the fact it’s coming “soonish” and the person behind is it a mysterious figure is concerning to say the least

with all the recent changes (monk,sharp, trick, even acro we go a bit back there was always discussion or some sort of player feedback, we are staring at space with bolt right now

[grizzled river]

negitive velocity doesn't exist, it's just positive in a different direction

[trim plover]

Negative velocity most certainly exists, velocity has both direction and magnitude, the direction being fixed, however if the magnitude is negative you have then have a negative velocity, you are thinking of speed which is the magnitude of velocity, which cant be negative

Please stay in school kids 🙏

[grizzled river]

so how would you calculate velocity?

taking a regular 10 units of distance and 10 seconds of time, what is the velocity?

[trim plover]

Just read this dawg https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/189600/why-and-how-does-negative-velocity-exist

[grizzled river]

that's a random forum post my guy

[trim plover]

You must be D1 ragebaiter

[grizzled river]

idk how you think you can input a negitive number and expect not to get either negitive time or negative distance

[grizzled river]

everything I can't understand is ragebait

[grizzled river]

dude wtf

that's positive velocity

taking this "example" doing a u turn results in your velocity being 0

[trim plover]

...

[paper grotto]

is negative velocity just complete stillness bro

or equations on paper

[trim plover]

[grizzled river]

nah velocity only goes up

if you're still (in a relative sense) it's 0

[paper grotto]

as in it would resist the movement of earth and try to stay in one place

i have zero knowledge to talk abt this im bullshitting rn

[grizzled river]

still smarter than this bigmac player

[paper grotto]

OMG THATS CRAAZY

[sturdy crane]

-# What is happening here

[paper grotto]

trickster needs negative velocity ofc ofc

[trim plover]

Yea

[warm otter]

She she trickster on my tricks till I detonate

[grizzled river]

some people failed physics

[proven bluff]

elite rage bait

[trim plover]

Classic example btw of someone being completely wrong, dying on the hill, realizing halfway through when called out, and then doubling down and "ragebaiting" to preserve ego

🥱

[grizzled river]

what, I never ragebaited my guy just admit you failed high school physics

no matter how much you try to preserve whatever admiration of self, it's kinda a lost game when you try to suggest something that just doesn't exist does indeed exist

I cringed when you had to dig around for a random 3rd grade diagram to somehow prove your point

[trim plover]

Triple down is insane, ego really cant take it huh?

Call him piratesoftware

[grizzled river]

why don't you give some reasonable points that distance can be negitive and then you can talk

like let me guess

American?

[reef inlet]

bro can someone mute this guy they annoying af

[opal sphinx]

velocity can be negative if you fix a reference point for direction of movement, otherwise velocity is a vector

[grizzled river]

even then it's not actually negative on the graph, it's just there for simplification

you can't start from a point an then move at negitive velocity

[opal sphinx]

in an absolute sense yeah it isn't negative but sometimes it helps to think of inversions in direction as an inversion in value, like if i fix the x axis as being my direction for movement going from 0 to 1 will have positive velocity and from 1 to 0 will have negative velocity

[grizzled river]

😭 he emoted on this omg this guy

[reef inlet]

i was talking abt u so yea

[grizzled river]

yeah that's what I'm saying, palidin doesn't understand that and thinks any movement in the opposite direction is actual negitive velocity

[trim plover]

Speed cant be negative, its what is used in cars, it has no direction and therefore can only be positive, which is NOT the same as velocity, they are different on a fundamental level

[grizzled river]

you see what I mean

[devout current]

what is going on

[grizzled river]

you can't win an argument with a stupid person that's what is going on

dude I need to sleep, watch a YouTube video to try to explain it

[opal sphinx]

oh i forgot english is a stupid language that differentiates speed and velocity

[grizzled river]

it's basically the same thing

[trim plover]

Theres an important difference

Its not even an English thing its a physics and math thing

[grizzled river]

do you use miles @trim plover

[trim plover]

No the standard for physics is the metric system so we use that, you probably wouldn't know because you're a dropout but I digress

[grizzled river]

genuine question because they teach physics and school in general differently in America

[grizzled river]

they wouldn't have accepted me into this uni if I was a dropout, even then you can't drop out of school here 😭

[trim plover]

Dayum and you still dont know the difference between speed and velocity? Maybe you need to play less wynn and not fall asleep during classes, it helps!

[grizzled river]

😭

you're really trying everything to touch face

you're telling me now you realise that velocity is vector and can't be negative

[trim plover]

https://tenor.com/view/rage-bait-ragebait-angry-gon-bait-gif-5270896389597269350

[grizzled river]

wait did you get confused between speed and velocity

because speed can be negitive

[trim plover]

"Velocity is a vector quantity that refers to "the rate at which an object changes its position." Imagine a person moving rapidly - one step forward and one step back - always returning to the original starting position. While this might result in a frenzy of activity, it would result in a zero velocity. Because the person always returns to the original position, the motion would never result in a change in position. Since velocity is defined as the rate at which the position changes, this motion results in zero velocity. If a person in motion wishes to maximize their velocity, then that person must make every effort to maximize the amount that they are displaced from their original position. Every step must go into moving that person further from where he or she started. For certain, the person should never change directions and begin to return to the starting position.

Velocity is a vector quantity. As such, velocity is direction aware. When evaluating the velocity of an object, one must keep track of direction. It would not be enough to say that an object has a velocity of 55 mi/hr. One must include direction information in order to fully describe the velocity of the object. For instance, you must describe an object's velocity as being 55 mi/hr, east. This is one of the essential differences between speed and velocity. Speed is a scalar quantity and does not keep track of direction; velocity is a vector quantity and is direction aware."

[grizzled river]

chatgpt what is velocity

make it extremely long I want to appear smart

[trim plover]

Bros about to quintuple down ICANT

[grizzled river]

chatgpt how do I win an online argument I'm kinda mad

[trim plover]

Just gonna leave this here cuz it said scalar earlier and leave it at that LOL

[grizzled river]

it's midnight here

kinda got transgenic compounds on my mind not high school physics

[grizzled river]

oh btw you can go back and edit your mistakes before they become gifs

[quick trail]

Velocity is a vector, not a scalar. Trying to say that it is negative or positive makes no sense.

[grizzled river]

exactly

it just goes up or down from a point

[fair notch]

why is everyone with a rabbit profile picture so insufferable

[warm otter]

What does this all u have been discussing have to trickster

[grizzled river]

honestly no idea

[limber valve]

can this get locked please 🙏

[trim plover]

It does make sense! Say you are in a car moving east at 30kmph, but then U-turn and are now heading west 30kmph, with respect to your original direction (East) your velocity is -30kmph, but your speed is 30kmph

[severe bramble]

wonderful question

[grizzled river]

bnuy

[quick trail]

What you just described is the magnitude of velocity and not velocity itself.

[trim plover]

The magnitude of velocity is speed!

[warm otter]

This time I’ll have to agree with @grizzled river wtfbu mean

[grizzled river]

he's getting confused with speed and velocity

okay can we shift towards trickster now, velocity can't be negative in a literal sense and we can move on

honestly shadow image (the one you tp to) has too short of a duration, it was so much better in beta before the duration was made into an aspect

[warm veldt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/262010576295821312/1320866103311994940/lookmymainlariis.gif

[limber valve]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1377846152883605536/1389091975319392368/e-nol.gif

[drifting pelican]

when did Lari become a 12y/o homeschooler

[quick trail]

Casting shadow clones right now is incredibly awkward while trying to cycle fast. It should be cast with something simpler, as you want to have max uptime with it.

Making it trigger off of just holding space would be nice qol.

[drifting pelican]

I just cast shadow clone from vanish when I have plenty of time to do whatever I want that isn't attacking
usually straight down
then use it as an extra echo point

[grizzled river]

why don't just make it auto cast when you dash

oh and make it trigger mirror clones when you teleport to it

[severe bramble]

yea i want less control of what im doing actually

[devout current]

it doesn't fit very much thematically but i feel like shift + smoke would work well

for both throwing the clone and tping to it

[grizzled river]

it's better than double jump

[severe bramble]

Subjective, and double jumping gives you control over where the clone goes and when you want to do it as opposed to making it automatically do it whenever its off cooldown

[grizzled river]

it suits the class more tbh

[severe bramble]

ok and why is that

right now every clone has a different way they get summoned why put 2 of them onto the movement spell

and if the shadow clone automatically pops when you dash how do you propose you teleport to it instead of double jump

[grizzled river]

dash has 2 clones it summons already

why not make it all 3

[severe bramble]

mirage summons after bamboozle or u tp with shadow projection

not on dash

[grizzled river]

idk it feels dumb right now, especially since it just doesn't trigger

[severe bramble]

have you played trickster? really funny how you ask someone that when you dont even know that

[grizzled river]

Its much better with hop but it costs 2ap

[grizzled river]

yeah I play trickster and I find it clunky to summon and tp to

[severe bramble]

how peculiar that for someone who has been acting pompous with a high ego throughout this entire thread ur assassin isnt even level 100

🤔

[opal sphinx]

he is low elo ragebaiter just ignore him lmao

[severe bramble]

oh yea i know ☺️

[grizzled river]

it still deals more damage than you 💔

[drifting reef]

yeah wintel ur a noob!

[grizzled river]

nah they're not just kinda lost

[drifting reef]

lost?

[grizzled river]

I hope shadow clone gets fixed it was so fun on the beta

[drifting reef]

[opal sphinx]

a high elo ragebaiter would make their bait way better and harder to discern

[grizzled river]

oh noo bad crop job I'm so scared

[severe bramble]

🥀

[grizzled river]

still sad about the hsp macro situation

[severe bramble]

oh no a false hackusation report im so scared !

[trim plover]

Shrödinger's ragebait, all ragebait is just stupidity until engaged with

[grizzled river]

didn't he get banned from a recording of the livestream

[drifting reef]

who is “he”

[grizzled river]

random dude

[severe bramble]

he? you dont even remember who it was LOL

[drifting reef]

dawg how are we supposed to know who got banned if you dont know their name

[grizzled river]

I don't remember who it was I just remembered that whole drama

[drifting reef]

quite incredible really

[trim plover]

Vro is living in his own fabricated world

[grizzled river]

am I supposed to know about the people who get banned for cheating

[drifting reef]

are we supposed to know who you’re talking about then?

[grizzled river]

idk the dude who got banned, are you unable to remember the name of one of your guys

or is kids cheating a common occurrence

[drifting reef]

dude! we just told you! we dont know who you’re talking about!

no we arent able to remember a person based off of an absurdly vague description.

[reef inlet]

ur the worst chief ever autosword : (

[drifting reef]

“the guy who got banned” tells us less than nothing

[grizzled river]

is being banned in hsp common then???

[proven bluff]

honestly double jump is fine it just takes getting used to

[grizzled river]

honestly with an average age of 14 I wouldn't be surprised

[severe bramble]

if it was common then we would at least have names ☺️

[drifting reef]

^

[severe bramble]

me when i have no good response so i continue lying

[drifting reef]

This is just flat out disinformation LOOOL

you are really awful to talk to wow, i hope youre better irl

youre literally just making shit up about our guild for zero reason

[severe bramble]

probably not why do u think they join random guild vcs dont say anything and start screenrecording its almost as if they are insufferable

[grizzled river]

I got one of your guild members who was using a hero in half champ armour in pfinder once 🔥

[drifting reef]

you have 0 proof about any of the claims youre making

[opal sphinx]

so sad to see people fall for ragebait in real time

maybe he wasn't low elo after all

[grizzled river]

I don't know I was kinda an observer of the drama I wasn't involved

[drifting reef]

fair but i also dont like people talkign shit about the community im in for no reason 🥀

[trim plover]

Its not even ragebait lol its just straight up slander lol

[drifting reef]

"i dont know" is very accurate, please stop making entirely baseless claims about HSP. you're not even close to being an active member of the community yet you talk about it as if youve been there for ages and know about a bunch of drama that has never even existed!

if you continue to slander HSP for no reason i will get moderators involved through a report

i've done it before, i will happily do it again

[grizzled river]

dude I don't know why you're getting so defensive over the drama

like there is no war in ba sing sai

[drifting reef]

i’m getting defensive because you’re making shit up and i’m disputing it

do you really expect me to just let it slide without saying anything?

[grizzled river]

idk man are you like this around everyone who brings up what happened

it's in the past just chill

[drifting reef]

if personal insults are all you can say i will end the convo here. you have been warned, if i catch you slandering HSP over baseless claims again i will get mods involved

[grizzled river]

???????

[severe bramble]

• the only person who brings up what happened (refuses to elaborate on what happened and speaks vaguely)

[grizzled river]

I don't remember all the details I just remember people talking about it in wynncord

[limber valve]

convenient amnesia real!

[fair notch]

soooo

youre a d1 yapper? understood.

[drifting reef]

understatement

[urban linden]

D1 ragebaiting

[earnest wagon]

as far as I am aware, I have never known a member of my guild to ever get banned. We don't cheat and if you want proof I can show you hundreds of clips of our gameplay. if you are just trolling please stop. if you continue I will go contact a mod. I don't take lightly any accusations about my guild

[fair notch]

theyre kinda bad it

[grizzled river]

dude wtf what are these guys

[severe bramble]

maybe dont start shit u cant handle ^

[limber valve]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1371286670787350608/1404789102964113531/No1CatGuild.gif

[surreal ferry]

back to talking about trickster and assassin perhaps the class shouldn't have been 100% res in the first place 😭 doesn't really make sense to me thematically

[severe bramble]

honestly this thread has lasted beyond its usefulness atp and everything should just go to the official trickster thread

[surreal ferry]

makes sense
where's that?

[severe bramble]

#1397647927257596047

[drifting reef]

wow its almost like youre being an ass to an entire guild of over 90 people

insane! that would never have consequences for any actions

[limber valve]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1368813750269906974/1371680837728210954/lv_0_20250506210657.gif

[fair notch]

im p sure the reason was that 'it doesnt heal'

[surreal ferry]

like the reason for 100% base res as opposed to a lower amount? i suppose that probably did make sense when classes were first made as a low range no self heal class but idk enough about pre-2.0 wynn to speak on that

[fair notch]

yeah 100% is kinda absurd combined with clones and dissolution

[violet pewter]

This is the thread of all time

[sturdy crane]

-# Wouldn't this just be worse than it is currently btw

[reef inlet]

yes

[violet pewter]

They probably dont play tricker

[worn forge]

Still waiting for base res to get removed or reworked 🙏

[devout current]

it’s ok for throwing the clone imo but i find it quite clunky to teleport to during combat. but it’s kinda subjective tbh

[devout current]

yea to me this just feels like a relic of pre 2.0 and shouldn’t have any weight in terms of designing archetypes

same with the elemental masteries, iirc they were only really there to act as a suggestion for new players and don’t have much to do with the actual archetype, so i feel like taking it into consideration as much as it sounds like it was for trickster is kinda silly

that said i don’t dislike the idea of encouraging ehp but if the reason for that was purely because it has the fire mastery node then yea

[proven bluff]

its a minecraft limitation iirc

once they update versions it might get better

[devout current]

i see

[sleek zenith]

Wait a minute, Deflagrate counts teammate hits as well???

Isn't it only me based on the description?

[sleek zenith]

thank gawd bro, i was asking for that from day 5 beta or something hahaha

[sleek zenith]

Finally caught up to it haha

[sharp jolt]

better pack it up buddy.. im taking werv and vince away from your 14yo guild!!

[drifting reef]

what if werv was a 14 year old and you didnt know 😟

[sharp jolt]

what if my guild did a meet up and you didnt know 😟

[drifting reef]

🤯

[grizzled river]

it just doesn't work when I play on na though...

[crystal ivy]

I'm referring to you being negative about it without any reason to be.

The fact that someone on the ability team isn't publicly known doesn't mean anything other than they want to avoid the drama that inevitably ends up on their doorstep just for being a CT at all. You know that behaviour is quite common

[rotund zephyr]

<---

[crystal ivy]

Just not possible unfortunately. We would like to improve all double jump triggers and it could be possible once we remove support for versions under 1.21.2 but even then it will take quite some effort as it's not that simple to implement

[crystal ivy]

Description must be wrong we should fix that!

[crystal ivy]

I tried getting your opinions on stuff that I said but you never responded :(

Do you have any thoughts?

[sharp jolt]

yep, which is why they have a ct manager

im all in for someone not wanting to reveal themselves for obvious reasons but this doesn’t mean that you need to cut communication about this very specific subject for bolt, not that im implying it is impaired for anything else- my whole point is that for bolt it seems to be the opposite of what ive noticed so far considering it’s “coming soonish”

[crystal ivy]

Nobody has cut communication :)

We work on many things behind the scenes obviously and not everything will nor should get a huge public thread because it can often lead to people becoming misinformed or disappointed when plans innevitably change throughout development and implementation

even linny's original assassin rework thread is a great example of how transparency led to a lot of misinformation because the first message was all that was in people's heads for months even though it was extremely fluid at that time

[sharp jolt]

this was like 8 months ago and I remember she explicitly said she was unsure about certain things

I saw it more of an opportunity to communicate with players and grab feedback, not necessarily “hey guys we are giving bolt a 3rd red, here is exactly what it’s going to do”

[crystal ivy]

Yeah I appreciate that you and others saw it like that but we were met with "they're removing clones damage reduction soon they're gonna kill us" for the next 8 months lmao

from loooots of people that take anything we say very seriously. So we have to be careful about what we say

Same thing has occured with Chris talking about sharpshooter or ritualist reworks!

We like to show off what we're doing and we will definitely do so for the really large things (akin to trickster) but not everything requires that and if it did then we'd spend more time in feedback than working on stuff 😭

[sharp jolt]

I agree the structure for bolt is pretty good and it’s more the tree as a whole that’s problematic, it’s just concerning that despite there being a so called mysterious figure there is no talk about it, in fact if chris (or Leo I dont remember) hadn’t randomly mentioned that it’s soonish this conversation wouldn’t be relevant, but im happy that it is because maybe it gives hope for archer being playable on fruma lol

again im not expecting anyone to come out and say “so we decided to remove x y z and we are now replacing them with a b c, here are all the deets” but maybe even just a feedback post would be nice

[crystal ivy]

Try to not be concerned we didn't necessarily say what we were working on with regard to summoner, acolyte or paladin over the many months and I think they've all turned out pretty good

Schedules do change quite frequently so we don't want to publicly commit to anything for the regular patches that could not come to fruition because of other priorities

[severe bramble]

If you guys can somehow find a way to encourage building ehp that doesn't require getting hit/something else that's jank than I would not mind but I do not have any ideas on how you would do this

[naive hound]

Growth

For every 1000 bonus hp reduce mirror image cooldown by 1 second

[devout current]

maybe the strength of the debuffs or, even better, the elemental damage buffs could scale based on ehp or bonus hp like what battery said

[prime jackal]

I think building defense is different from building bulky honestly.

[devout current]

true it prolly shouldn’t be limited to just def and agi

[naive hound]

Shhhh we don't need more sp restrictions at least raw hp is accessible to all sp variations to an extent

[grizzled river]

do you guys have any idea how to encourage building ehp (lists the only ways to incentivise it without it being a skill point conversion node)

[shut flicker]

i gotta be honest if an archetype that is generally very fun and interesting to play turns you off because you need a bulkier build I think it's not so much the archetypes fault as the players, this has turned into such an uproar over something that isnt a big deal

[prime jackal]

Then can clones at least draw aggro to the boss

[severe bramble]

the problem isnt that you need to build bulkier its the current way it tries to incentivize u to do it being uninteresting, having a lot of variance and not fitting with most of the kit

and quite frankly sandbagging doesnt do a good job at incentiving u to do it (as auto pointed out earlier)

[grizzled river]

need to make it like the beta again then ig

[obsidian ferry]

Yeah every trickster debuff should be a 10% multiplier on the marked enemy and infinitely stack

[shut flicker]

true, sandbagging absolutely needs to go, but I do think trickster should incentivize building bulkier which people dont seem to care for

also again it is a very cool archetype, I would just bite the bullet even if it may not be the build you want, make a build with more ehp and enjoy the playstyle

[worn forge]

I think the fact that neither CT nor players have found an adequate or cohesive solution should be very telling

[worn forge]

I mean this would probably work but is a huge copout

[drifting pelican]

why do people like the converter node idea
I don't think its a very good solution

[worn forge]

Everybody hates on other converter nodes like Seance too lol

Its just not very good design all around imo

[naive hound]

They only hate it cuz they make it shit on purpose with raw spell on archer and %Spell on mage which is literally 2 ends of the spectrum flipped

I mean reasonably cata and Nirvana which are one of the top picks for damage has -health which also is a factor that needs to be added when thinking about it also cursed wings -health actually mattering lol

[worn forge]

Yeah cata and nirv would not work well with a hp converter node lol

[naive hound]

Having to build around drawbacks but having good pay offs 😨 unheard-of

Put me in coach

[naive hound]

Jajajaja

[worn forge]

Can we stop pretending like the old IMs got it perfect when making these weapons

Like these mythics are older than half the playerbase

They were not carefully made with the trick rework in mind

[naive hound]

I'm just thinking of a possible fix of what is in game right now

[worn forge]

I think there is no perfect solution to forcing trick to build ehp because it doesn't jive with the rest of the kit

And feels like a tacked-on requirement

Complain about ETW sigmas all you want but people play it because its good and fun

If it was good and fun to build ehp on trick people would do so even without sb

I stand by my position that an assassin archetype should not be trying to tank hits

And people citing the base res as a reason falls apart for reasons I mentioned already

[worn forge]

Not directing ts (this) all at you btw, just sharing my general thoughts

[obsidian ferry]

like first join date or actual age

[worn forge]

hyperbole

[obsidian ferry]

ur prob right on 2nd point

[crystal ivy]

One random idea I had was to make clones that can tank (mirage and mirror image) actually have health and make it a percentage of your max hp. So they would tank a specific amount of health rather than hits

A bit like the Pokémon substitute idea from someone else but without the downside of cutting your own health

[sleek zenith]

that would make building EHP so much better for survivability as well

[visual phoenix]

I really like that idea honestly

[sleek zenith]

and please Deflagrate Uptime Buff also hehe

[main mural]

That's about the best solution I've seen so far